Hidden True Crime - CHAD DAYBELL TRIAL: Psychologist Dr John assess video of Emma and Chad Daybell

Episode Date: April 24, 2024

Hosts and spouses Dr John and Lauren Matthias talk about the bombshell evidence entered into the Chad Daybell trial. Join Hidden True Crime as we follow Chad Daybell's trial beginning to end. Host Lauren Matthias is in the courtroom every day, doing lunch lives on YouTube and summarizing each day and week right here on Hidden: A True Crime Podcast. JOHN MATTHIAS is a licensed clinical and forensic psychologist with 30 years’ experience. He serves as an expert witness for the federal government and consults on high-profile cases for District Attorney’s offices and defense attorneys in several states. In the forensic area, Dr. Matthias has developed expertise in personality assessments, hidden behavioral motivations, complex trauma and criminal psychology. In the clinical realm, he has worked with numerous victims. He received his Master’s degree in Marriage, Family and Child counseling, as well his doctorate degree, from the University of Southern California. Dr. Matthias graduated with honors in philosophy from Princeton University, and he won the prestigious McCosh Thesis prize while there. In high school he graduated valedictorian from a large public high school in Chicago where he was chosen to participate in a ground-breaking valedictory study that continues to this day. LAUREN MATTHIAS was a television reporter for a decade, and has followed the Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell case since 2019. Lauren and her husband John Matthias, a criminal psychologist, started Hidden True Crime in 2020 with their Season: 'Beyond the Veil' a psychological deep dive into the doomsday murders and prophet.  A podcast that started at their dinner table has now turned into the dynamic husband and wife duo of Dr. John Matthias, a forensic psychologist, and Lauren Matthias, an investigative journalist, delving into the psychological facets of unthinkable crimes every week. Thank you for your support through sponsorships, subscribing, listening, and becoming at Patreon member at Patreon.com/HiddenTrueCrime Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Well, it wasn't a promise, but I'm going to make you promise, something you have to fulfill. Something you said on a whim once is a joke. And now, and now you've got to follow through. Right. Right. So I assume our gems that have been with us a while would know the inside joke. I don't, and not a joke, I guess, but that I, I joked that if we reached 144,000, that instead of going to the New Jerusalem, as Chad Dayball hoped to do, we would instead go to the Bellagio pool for, for, We'd have a blowout pull party celebration with our 144,000. So that was my...

144,000 subscribers. Subscribers on YouTube, right. That was my tease. That was my ruse. I didn't... I think we were at like 50,000 when I was talking about that. So I didn't... I didn't really anticipate being here tonight and...

reaching 144,000, but here we are. How perfect that it happened during the Chad Deval trial. And hey, Chad, we've now accomplished something that you never did. Right. So we gathered 144. How are you doing? How are you doing behind bars with that? So congratulations.

But we also, oh, go ahead. He's right. I would imagine he's experiencing some rage right now over. I mean, not that he knows about us, but over the fact that that was his dream was to gather the 144,000. He's sitting here like this. Yeah. With hearing about it. Sorry.

I think the best I can do. I think we've been, we've probably been labeled dark many times over by now. But tonight, especially, we're going to be on the light and dark scale. We're going to be really dark. So proud to be dark, proud to have 144,000 subscribers for our not not apocalypse party at the Bellagio pool. And we hit 144,000 around lunchtime right after lunch. So I did my lunch live and I would have announced it then. But it had a hit.

I went back into court and sat down and I looked. Oh, there goes Dr. John. Oh, there. He's back. And we had, and it happened. It happened. And I celebrated with a few texts to moderators. We did it.

We did something Chad Debao and Lori Vallow never did. And we just had to jump on. And yeah, let everyone know. And thank you. You're all part of the original 144. Yeah. So I just want to thank our gems for getting us there. And we have such a remarkable community.

And I'm so grateful to all our gems. I didn't, you know, maybe, unlike Chad Daybell, back when we had, I don't know, I don't know when I started talking about it, like 30,000, 35,000 subscribers. I will not claim the gift of prophecy, even though here we are tonight. Maybe I should, maybe I should say that I'm a profit. it. On my light, dark scale, I can prophesy that we are all dark in order to be part of our 144 you are dark. And we're going to have t-shirts that say dark and I don't know. Someone's got to think of it. At least dark humor, yeah. Dark humor. Yeah. We're all darkly humorous. Correct. We've got people offering stickers. So I have heard even people, people, people,

genuinely want to come to this party that has not yet been planned. We had gems right from Nova Scotia saying, you know, can you let us kind of know when it's planned? Because I would, the introvert in me, they said genuinely would like to come. So John and I do not have a date. And I'll be honest, it would be very difficult to start planning while attending Chad's trial. But we do plan to have a gathering in Las Vegas. We will certainly be talking to the Bellagio to seeing what we could perhaps pull off because we all know that we want to see John in a swimsuit with an owl pendulum around his neck. So we have some planning to do.

Who wouldn't want to see that? Please be patient while we at least get through the trial. But we will certainly need a party after the trial. But we'll have to plan it for everyone to have time to schedule. though, but it is in the works. It is in the works. Total eclipse of the gems. Dark with the mind.

So many good ideas. Here's so many good ideas. Yeah. Bud light. We're going to have bud darks, you know, at the... Can we find out who the 144,000 person was by any chance? Is there some way we can... You know, it happened so quick.

I don't know. We were at 143,000 something. And then by the time we were back in court and I was standing properly for the jury, I said back down, we were at 144 and something. I don't think we can. I wish we could. I wish we could. So if anybody wants to state claim, it's open.

We'll investigate. We'll investigate. Yes. Proud to be dark. All right. So John has been watching the trial from home or at least parts of it. He can't watch all of it. You're working.

You're preparing for another trial yourself, actually. But I definitely send him the things he needs to watch into John. You have watched now the bombshell evidence that nobody had ever seen until yesterday. A phone call between Emma Daybell and Chad DeBell. Or not a phone call. excuse me, a police car footage on the day Chad Daybell was arrested, June 9th, 2020, and a conversation with Emma Daybell, who's talking to him through the police car. Chad Daybell was arrested and had handcuffs on, but he had not yet faced charges.

They were digging up his yard, and that was the day that they police found J.J. and Tiley's remains, RIP, JJ and Tiley. So I showed him that video. And we have a very nice color corrected audio fixed. We have that on our YouTube channel. And then, of course, the patriarchal blessing that Chad Daybell gave. Alex Cox came down today. They did show this last year at Lori's trial,

but the sound for those that weren't in the room, the sound for the audio was terrible, and they've really upgraded it. So I also did a new video of that tonight, too. And I have all the text and everything and then Chad's reaction to it. So those are the two things. John Call me said, should we do this? Let's talk these two pieces of evidence. So what do you think, by the way?

Well, so let's start with a couple little tidbits that we learn from the from the police cam footage with Emma and Chad. The first thing the first thing that really struck me as that really stood out for me was the fact that apparently there's over $9,000 in cash

in Mark's room. I'm like, what? I mean, I guess Yeah, that was a... I thought, you know, you head out the door to go to Starbucks and we have trouble rounding up $10. cash in our house, but they're sitting on thousands of dollars.

I guess that would be consistent with a prepper mindset, right? Yeah. The idea of having cash, although typically if there's an apocalypse, cash is going to have no value. So most preppers have gold or food or storage or so, you know, so that was interesting. I think they have the cash too. It's true.

I went home this weekend to be with the family, and I got complaints about how little cash the tooth fairy gave my son. And I checked in with, and that the only dollar, he got a dollar bill, but it was ripped in half. I guess the tooth fairy didn't have a full dollar bill. And so I checked in with the tooth fairy, and that was all the cash that was laying around. Our house was a dollar bill that was ripped in half. So I understand. So, yeah, so we're, the 9,000 was interesting that, that they apparently see some reason to keep that kind of cash around. The other little tidbit that was interesting is that Lori, did you catch the part about Lori's commissary money that they put $30 on Lori's account every week?

Yes. So Lori, Lori gets $120 a month for commissary stuff, goods, food, food, whatever she's buying, I don't know. But did you catch the Emma Dave Al talks to her often? Yeah. But I thought that was interesting. You know, it's a long way from Lori's fantasies of being right, rich and famous. So here Lori goes from, I guess this is before her trial, but she goes from being on this

pedestal and perceiving that or believing that she's going to have all these riches flow her way and now she's getting $120 a month if she's lucky that people are putting on her commissary in her commissary funds so that was interesting too just to see that change in circumstance that dramatic change in circumstance so you know so there's a couple of there were a couple of bombshells in here that are you if you don't pay attention i think i think you can maybe miss them the audio is not great but i think the most obvious one is and this is keeping in mind that chat is not under arrest there's no charges he's simply being detained in a police car and he says i'm not coming back so actually right emma emma says earlier it sounds like

you're not going to be out. And Chad basically says no, it's kind of hard to hear him, but he says, he says no. So this is, this is no, you know, this is no catch and release situation. And Chad understands that. But he reiterates that point later. And he says quite definitively, I'm not coming back. And so I think there, what's interesting about that is in forensic psychology and in the law, there's something called mens rea, which is the.

basis of the entire criminal justice system. And mens rea means guilty mind or guilty conscience in some cases. And that's what they're looking for there. I think that's what the prosecution is trying to prove is when somebody says, I'm not coming back and they're not under arrest, that's indicative probably of something like a guilty conscience. So I think that was one of the biggest reasons they played that footage. But there's a couple other bombshells in there. And again, if you're not, you know, it's, they don't necessarily stand out unless you're looking for them.

But they talked about, she talks about, another one is, she talks about, you know, the law enforcement searching the yard. And she at, Emma asks about the home. And Chad says, and again, you know, these are not the most obvious moments, but Chad says they won't find anything in the home. Yeah, I know. Now you might think, okay, so what, right?

But I mean, the obvious implication is, but they will find something in the yard, right? Like, in other words, he knows that there's something in the yard. He, he, he, they may not find something in the home, even if they take computers or whatever, it seems like maybe he took some precautions or cleaned hard dry. I don't know whatever he did,

but by contrast, they're not looking in the home. They're looking in the yard. So he's essentially saying, well, you know, they're not going to find anything in the home at least, but they will in the yard. He knew.

So that was interesting again, mens rea. That would indicate that he knew where the bodies were and that he had knowledge of it beforehand before his arrest. Something else that was interesting. And again, this is something that's probably less verbally mentioned, less said, and something just more from the kind of overall tenor of this body cam footage. But just a couple of times Emma says, I love you so much. And, you know, there's this kind of...

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with that and, you know, some desire, I would imagine, to connect to that parent. depending on the circumstances and depending on the relationship, there's probably cases where a parent's arrested and the child is like, thank goodness. Right. So, but here, here you have kind of this unwavering devotion, what I would call this pure devotion. And this sense that she'll do anything for her father. So like this, there's almost this urgency about how can I take care of you, dad. And I think that's important because it really speaks to this, it speaks.

it speaks to something that we're apparently going to see coming up in this trial, which is when the kids testified, when they testify, that you have this unwavering obedience and devotion in some sense. And you see it the way she talks to him, the way she takes orders from him. Right. And so you have a situation here where it's not hard to see why these children would do anything for their.

father, even if it means not completely being honest about what happened with their mother. In other words, when the issue of Tammy's health problems comes up, apparently we're anticipating that the children were going to say she had a lot of health problems and she didn't go to doctors. But that was Chad's narrative. And so you can see here in this batty cam footage why the children will adopt whatever narrative Chad puts forth. because you see that kind of, you see that obedience here

and you see that clinging to her father and the willingness to help him no matter what. And so I think that would go along with beliefs as well, not just assisting or supporting her father when he's arrested or when he's in jail, but also helping him any way they can, even if it means stretching the truth a little bit. So I think that was another interesting part

of the body cam footage. there's another moment where Emma's talking about that the police, they, she says, they found human remains. She kind of is prodding her father a little bit about, did you know this? And he's not responding. And then she says, I can see, she says, I can see in your face surprise.

But he doesn't respond. Like the most interesting part of this is, What he's not saying. Correct. He's not saying, oh, yeah, I was so surprised, right? He's, he's not saying anything. So again, that would indicate that goes along with, well, they won't find anything in the house, but of course they're going to find, you know, bodies in the yard.

I mean, it's the same, it's the same issue that it, it shows that there isn't surprise. It shows that he has knowledge that the bodies are there when he shouldn't. I have questions. I have questions about that moment. Go ahead. He should have. And then probably one of the most interesting moments of the entire video to me was when he brings up, she brings up that she's been talking to Lori.

And Emma says, was she, meaning Lori, was she surprised? So again, Emma is sort of testing the waters here about who's surprised. And Chad says, she seemed bothered or disturbed. The quote is, quote, she seemed bothered or disturbed. Notice how he doesn't seem, you know, he doesn't say she seemed surprised. And he doesn't say that he was surprised. So he's clearly stating pretty unequivocally that neither himself nor

Lori were surprised by these bodies, which obviously indicates that they had knowledge they were there and by implication that they participated in the murders. By knowing the bodies were in the yard, they had knowledge of the murders and participated in the murders. So I think it's not a very long video, but there's so much in there that really, it goes a long way towards, you know, making the case for the prosecution. Now, I don't know if the jury is going to see it the way I see it or if they're going to, you know, they're going to interpret the way I'm interpreting it. But I think, obviously, I think this line about I'm not coming back is unmistakably,

you know, damning for Chad Daybell. The other stuff, I don't know. I, you know, I'm throwing it out there because it was an interest to me that there's, there's multiple places in here. here where mens rea guilty conscience applies and there's clearly evidence in here that he knew he knew where the bodies were and the nonverbal at the end where he turns around the prosecution makes a point of saying why would he turn around he shouldn't know if he doesn't know there's any bodies in the yard or he has no awareness of it what's he looking at he's looking exactly where Kylie was where her body was recovered, right? And he has that curiosity.

And again, you have that moment where he shouldn't have any, if indeed he was framed by Lori and Alex or whatever the defense is going to be, he should be completely surprised and he should have no knowledge whatsoever of where the bodies were. He should not even know that the bodies are on his property. As Anna says, it appears no one was surprised. Yeah. Right. Right. And as E writes, it says, if you found bodies in my yard and I was in the back of a police car, I would be freaking the hell out. Right. So would probably anyone related to you. Yes. I agree. That was the most interesting part to me was I actually thought it was interesting how Emma asked her dad. She says it. And then she said that I said to the police, you know, officers, no, no. It's an animal cemetery. And he.

And they said, well, I know what, I know what bodies are. You know, sorry, Emma, this is, these are human remains. And then, and then she just kind of moves out. Well, he does too. And he kind of switches the subject back to finances. Like, I was wondering, my question for you and I actually posed this in my lunch live was, was that sort of like a denial thing with, with Emma? I mean, if that was my dad in the back of the police car, I'd be like, there are bodies in our backyard who, put them there. How did they get there? Who's are they? I would be freaking out even if

my father wasn't. Is it a lack of curiosity? Is it a lack of curiosity or does she not want to know? Denial. She doesn't want to know. She's, I mean, these are, these are kids that went through the whole Lori Valo-Dabell trial and saw all the evidence or maybe they didn't, I'm sure, maybe they didn't see the evidence. They went through that trial and did not see the evidence and They still believe that their father's innocent. So it's denial. But getting back to this line about was Lori's surprise, and she said she seemed bothered or disturbed?

What's interesting about that is they're bothered. Chad and Lori are bothered and disturbed by the fact that they were caught. Right? They're being bothered and disturbed. It's not bothered and disturbed by the fact that there's bodies in the art. They already know that. They're bothered and disturbed. that somehow the prophet was caught, and somehow the guy you can see the future was caught,

and the guy that's professing to have all these visions of the future and right, all these special powers, that he was caught. So I think he's saying that, by the way, for Lori and Chad both. So that speaks to your issue about denial. I think, yeah, there's a huge amount of denial here. Well, we have Lori Vallow's family member right here. This is third verse.

This is Lori Vallow's first cousin, Megan, here in chat. And that's exactly what she pulled from it. She was annoyed. Her sins were being discovered. Yeah. She was annoyed. They were caught. Exactly.

Right. Exactly. They weren't disturbed that there were bodies in their backyard, as the previous post you just put up would indicate. Yeah. If somebody found human remains in our backyard, I'd be like, what? What? What?

Right. Correct. But not them. Yeah, no surprises in their world, apparently, when bodies are in their backyard. Crispy treat. These people seem like there are mass doses of Xanax when this is happening. Yeah, Xanax and probably some, yeah. You know, some hallucinic.

some LSD and hallucinogenic drugs for sure who knows I don't know what they're taking it was it was the other thing can we talk about also yay for all of our new members by the way thank you everyone I'm there I've been starring some questions and comments call you saw what you saw when he looked back at that fire pit in the cop car third verse also says where he said, we're not Colby. Did you catch that or did you miss that? I didn't point that out. No, you know, the audio wasn't great. I went through it a couple times, but I missed that. Oh, I caught it in court. So here's what happens. I'll tell you the exact quote. It was one of the quote they put on Twitter. So she's, they're talking about finances and she's saying, don't worry,

Dad, you raised us, which I also think is a little bit of a jab to, you know, to Tammy. Don't worry, dad, you raised us. We're independent. And then she jokes, ha ha, with your wallet. And then she says, we're not Colby. Yeah. Quite the jab. And it's interesting because during this time, Colby really wasn't hearing from his mom a lot. I think he heard from her in November. We learned. and but he wasn't really hearing from her. And so who knows what Chad and Lori were saying to them about him. But she said, don't worry,

we're independent. We're not Colby. Yeah. It's fortunate that Colby was not a teenager or younger, right? He would have been at risk. Yeah. This is a question from Davis. Dr. John,

what are your thoughts on the loyalty that children have for parents, even in situations that are bad? because we also know that they're going to testify for their dad. Yeah, that's an interesting question. You know, it depends on the family culture. I think some family cultures are more shut down. They're closed systems, what we call closed family systems, where information doesn't really get in and out of the family culture or the family system.

And I think those families tend to have the blinders on much more. they're more apt to have this kind of unwavering loyalty or devotion. And, you know, we've talked a lot about the idea of emmeshment. And a lot of times families that are very shut down or closed will be ameshed, meaning that all of their identities sort of fuse into one another. They're not allowed to be independent. They're expected to kind of tow the family party line, no matter what that is. So I think you have a lot of those elements here, that this is a family that's,

not particularly open to the outside world. And so they're going to adopt the same beliefs. They're going to perpetuate those beliefs. They're not going to deviate from those beliefs. And that's how you end up in the situation where they're not looking at evidence. They're just looking at what their father tells them. So their father tells them that Tammy was sick, even if there's not evidence to support that.

They're going to take the stand apparently and say that. I mean, we'll see what they say. But I think part of this could be at least a little part of this video could have to do with that issue. It could be setting this up to really question Emma and her credibility when she takes the stand and she says, my mom was so sick. You know, we all worried she was going to pass away.

I mean, never mind the fact that Chad had prophecies or visions of Tammy dying for years for decades. before. He always thought that she would die. And she didn't. So, yeah, this will be interesting. I wonder if, in watching this, I wondered if part of this was maybe the prosecution's attempt to start setting the stage for that later testimony. Because, I mean, when you put kids on the stand, you know, they're going to have a certain amount of emotional pull and credibility. And it's, it's going to be, you know, compelling testimony, I think, for them to say their mother was sick. But we'll see.

We'll see what happens. We've already talked about this. I asked this question, but to take a little bit further, Snow White is again asking why Emma wasn't freaking out that the human remains were found in her dad's yard. Why didn't she ask him whose bodies were in the ground? And that's what I noticed too, that she didn't even ask. She didn't even ask. And then did Emma not, she's, but her specific question is, did Emma no, but not want to be

lied to from her dad? Or? Well, let's follow up. So we know that later their father told them that it was animal remains. Or pioneer children at one point. Yeah. So I think the short answer is that she's going to believe her father. She wants to believe her father's innocent.

She's not going to, she's currently not going to see the evidence or see what's in front of her, nor does she want to know it. So she's already developed biases. about and yeah, she's not asking follow-up questions because I think my guess is, I'm quite sure that her father had told her earlier at some point that they're not human remains. And that's what he said in jail. That's what he told them in jail. So I think that they were, you know, that's what she probably believed prior to that conversation in the, when he was, you know, in the police car. Okay. Thank you. Thank you to everyone gifting memberships and for Chrissy and everybody tonight. Somebody is saying this is true. Heather Daybell did say that Chad kept his wife and kids fairly isolated.

That was a question for you. Do you feel like this kind of shows that a little bit? It was interesting to see their dynamic to me. I thought it was a bit of a unique dynamic. People are talking about that. said they shared an awkward laugh. Malo with St. Emma and Chad's way of communicating is beyond bizarre. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers, spammers, even stalkers. It's why you get endless robocalls and why ads seem to follow you everywhere.

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Start your free trial today at ORA.com slash remove. Protect yourself now at aura.com slash remove. Are someone else asking you to compare and contrast chat and Emma's microculture to Heather? It goes with my answer to the previous question about a closed family system. It's exactly the same dynamic I just talked about. Yeah, he isolated them because that's his way of keeping information from coming in and out of the family culture. Okay. And by doing that, he's able to instill or indoctrinate them with certain beliefs or like his beliefs in particular.

So when they later say that all his books were scripture and they believe that, it's because he set them up to believe that. Yes. Someone actually said that. Do I have it starred? No, it looks like I, someone actually put that. I thought I had started, but they said that they believed that Chad had already prepared Emma for this moment. Right. In many ways. Sorry to the person that wrote that with the red flags. I even posted it for a bit. But it was a great comment. Yeah. She turned on Lori. You know, she's written, she wrote on a road. old Reddit post that Lori was a family friend that had helped her heal. And she clearly was talking to Lori at this time and asking how Lori was. She clearly turned on Lori when she went on national television to say Lori framed their dad.

Well, she had to. In order to keep her narrative. In order to maintain our narrative of her father's innocence. And obviously her father is promoting that perspective. So again, like, in these types of closed families, you know, there's a lot of value placed on loyalty. And challenges to that loyalty are often seen as threats. The children can be ostracized if they question or challenge parents too much in a closed

family system. So in some sense, it becomes a matter of survival, especially when children are younger. If younger children start questioning the family belief system, then there's a threat. They could get ostracized. They could, you know, at least emotionally get kicked out of the family, probably not physically, but maybe in some cases. I mean, you certainly have families where you have runaways.

So, yeah. Miracle mom is saying that she, it's her dad. It's her mom. Well, it's her new step mom. You can't know what's going on. for her. It's true. It's true. People are asking if we'd already discussed Emma talking with

Lori. We have. What do you think that's about, though? Do you think her dad primed her for that too? I mean, clearly with the whole family friend idea. Crime in a bottle is saying, yeah, she seems to have seamlessly accepted Lori. You know, and unless, right, until it threatens her father. Until it threatens her father.

You know, I want to say to people to Emma has always been very close to her father. Eric Smith, who I interviewed at the end, wept and over discussing Emma and how close he felt to her Julie Roe talked to Emma the day that Tammy died. They were very close. Emma Daibel narrated Julie Rose books for her after she got back from a Mormon mission and she defended Julie Roe. She very much believed her dad. And so when Chad, when Chad was prepped. being people with, I believe Tammy's going to die. She probably did believe that. And so it sounds like that was something he shared with people that believed him. So. Yeah. So I'm just, I, you know,

I'm a little nervous about time. Oh, yeah. Yep. So you're a single parent household right now. Yeah. Right. Is there anything else you'd like to discuss when it comes to this or would you like to discuss the patriarchal blessing. Yeah, let's move on. If you want to talk about that, let's shift gears a little bit to the patriarchal patriarchal blessing. We talked about this before, but we haven't been able to see Chad's body language as much. I'm actually going to have to rely on you more for body language, because the video wasn't great, but it did look like, it did look like he was at the beginning. So it looks like there's a little bit of a shift. At the beginning, it looks like he's a little, he's anxious and he's moving a little more than normal.

I had a pretty good, I had a pretty good view of them, and it was different than the camera. Today I sat in a different place. I decided to be a bit of a wallflower today, stay out of eyes view of a lot of people. So I usually sit diagonal to Chad so I can have a good view. today I sat like directly I was a lot closer to him but I was directly to the side of him so when Pryor is sitting there

I can't always see him but I was Pryor not there or was prior sitting back maybe prior wasn't there because I could see him the entire time prior was there was he standing so

so then I won't I guess prior was leaning back because I could see Chad the entire time and I watched him the tire time because I had heard I had heard this yes I did Amy I stayed on the side I did I did so he was he had his hands clasped the entire time like this which is often for him and and honestly sometimes he does do the steeple thing he'll he'll actually be like this but he's on the table these his hands are always resting on the table in this position. And he almost had his headbound.

And oftentimes he's looking up or kind of, you know, he's shifty-eyed. He looked down. Yeah. He was looking down today for a lot of the patriarchal blessing. But I don't know if that means reverence or what it means. Yeah, that's what. So it seemed to me, this is my interpretation. and I wasn't obviously you being in the courtroom,

you're going to get a better view. The video is not great, but he did seem more anxious at the beginning when they started playing it. And he was moving more, which is atypical for Chad. So I think there was some anxiety to start off. And then it seemed like he settled in

and he started looking down. Also, I couldn't really tell, but it looked like maybe he was like, biting his lips or he was he was doing something his lips were turned in like what is that did you see that what was going on with welcome to chat's face his lips were turned in whenever i'm trying to do my expression that's me kind of he kind of has very uh odd lip i don't know that so that would be i it seemed like he was doing a lot of that but maybe he's doing that much more more than I'm, maybe I don't see that other, other times, but, so that would, that might indicate

a bit of anger and anxiety. He seemed, you know, he, he, he seemed tense for sure, but there might be some anger there. Like, why are they playing this? Or maybe you're invading my privacy. I don't know, there's, there's, there's something there, I think, that has to do with a little bit of anger. Of course, you know, he's not going to blatantly show that in court. But so after, it seemed like after a while he kind of settled down. Then he started looking down, like you said. And at that point, he gained control of his emotions. He was pretty flat from then on until, so he went into what I call his prayer pose.

After he contained himself, he went into what I call his prayer pose. and then right after they finished it, he started doing the side eyes that you've talked about. And I mean, like more so than usual. He was like, look, his eyes were flitting back and forth. Which is interesting. To me, it's almost like he doesn't want to move his head because he doesn't want to see what people,

how they're responding to him. I think there's some shame there. I think there's some avoidance. It's like putting on blinders. Like if you turn your head and look directly at someone, you have to, if you look them in the eye, you have to see what they're feeling. You have to try to assess that person.

But I think by doing his little lizard eyes, I don't know what else? By doing his little lizard eyes, I think that it's almost like a type of blinders. I think there's a real avoidance. there that he doesn't want to see what other people think and he doesn't want to know how other people are reacting and so I think there's a certain element of not only avoidance but shame shame is shame is the inability oftentimes shame is the inability to face someone else's gaze

when you're feeling inadequate or you're feeling less than yeah you're right well I mean honestly I thought there was C.C. says it's a neck injury from his near-death experience belly flop, which is why he doesn't shift. Yeah, that's a good point. He was really high up.

He did say that his spirit went up through his, yeah, yeah, maybe. That could be a neck injury. So I'm going to go with that. Disregard everything I just said. Let's go with it. You know, the shame thing, the shame thing, but I think there's an important thing about the shame that you said.

He is avoiding shame. It's not just shame. There's a lot of shame in him, but an avoidance of it. He doesn't want to feel it. Is that what you're saying? Or is it just shame? Or is it him avoiding it by putting blinders on because he's refusing to feel it? He's putting blinders on because he doesn't want to truly meet someone's gay.

like he doesn't want to see how people are truly reacting to him. Right. Or to what he said. I think there's potentially there's some embarrassment because he's giving this blessing and he's giving the blessing from the position, from the exalted position of being a prophet. And now he's fighting for his life in a murder trial with the death penalty on the table. That's a big fall from grace.

So I think there's a lot of embarrassment there. And I don't think he wants to grasp the magnitude of what's going on around him. I think he's trying to contain it. And one of the ways he's doing that is by, you know, the reptile eyes. Is that similar to how he was putting his blinders on when Emma comes up to and says, there's remains in our yard or was that i'm also thinking you know i'm going to avoid this topic and go back to finances so that this isn't later on in a trial uh i mean i don't yeah that's i don't know what his awareness would have been with i think he probably knew there was a camera

there but i don't i'm not sure he was thinking about it yeah i don't know yeah yeah Um, someone is saying this. Manson wasn't embarrassed. He acted like he was a persecuted profit. You know, I think in many ways, Chad, I think you could be, it's not embarrassment. It's shame and the avoid, right? Like, I think that one can be a persecuted profit and have shame. There's big differences between Manson, though, and Chad Debo.

Manson had much more acute mental health issues in terms of schizophrenia, presumably, or psychosis. So I think somebody like Manson, who, has more acute psychosis or tends to be psychotic more generally is going to have less shame or less embarrassment because they're not they're so divorced from their emotions and from reality that they can't, you know, they're not processing anything very well. So, you know, Chad Debo was acutely or floridly psychotic. He'd probably present way differently, obviously. He probably wouldn't be undergoing, um, he wouldn't be. He wouldn't be. He wouldn't be

sitting at that table right now and probably be, you know, um, incompetent, but, you know, depending, but, but yeah, there's, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, manson and dabo are very different. Colt leaders, yes, but different presentations. Yeah. I know we need to let you go, um,

soon. What, a final thing. After our Patreon live the other night, I feel like I had sort of like a breakthrough epiphany. I even came back to Boise and told my roommate, I was like, I think I'm finally there. And you were answering the question and that you believe that Chad Davel truly does believe this belief system he's created and believes himself. And I, it hit and I, that's where I am right now too. I'm like, he believes it.

And since I came to that conclusion and a conclusion, I guess that could change, everything to me makes a little bit more sense in court. I think he believes his defense, too, that he believes that he's sitting there just sort of misunderstood. But I want to ask you if I'm maybe going the wrong way there. Yeah, I think so. I'm going to quote something, Chad, so let's go back to the Emma body cam footage.

Chad says at the moment he's arrested, which I think for a lot of people would be kind of a come-to-jesus moment. Like if you don't believe any of that stuff, this might be a moment to start relinquishing those beliefs. But here's what Chad says, quote, it'll work out. It's all in the Lord's hands. So instead of trying to figure out a way through those beliefs or that, you know, that denial,

he goes back to what he's most familiar with, which is the Lord will take care of this. And which, by the way, in the blessing, I really urge people to listen closely to this blessing. Like if you want to understand Chab DeBell and his beliefs, listen closely to this blessing. Because this is someone who's a true believer. This is someone who, this is someone who, especially the second half of this blessing where he's crying and he's getting so emotional. This is a guy who doesn't get emotional. I mean, part of it is, part of it is that you can hear Lori in the background crying also. So I think there's, you kind of have emotional contagion here a little bit in the sense that he's also responding to Lori's crying.

Lori's emotions. But Chad is not an emotional guy. Just look at him in trial. And yet here you have in this blessing that he's giving to Alex Cox, somebody who's really connected to this blessing and believes it. And this is Chad Daibel. If you want to really understand Chad Daibel, go back to this blessing and listen to it again and again because,

for me at least, this is a true believer. It's hard to really see Chad Daibo. otherwise after this. If you want to understand Chad Bell's belief system and his commitment to it and the fact that he really believes this stuff, this is really compelling evidence that he does. To someone that says,

if Chad Davell really believes his belief system to SOT girls, why would he be lying now? That's what I'm saying. I don't know if he is. I don't think there's anything he's lied about. I think he believes his defense. I think he's saying, I think he's saying it's Lori's fault.

I had an affair with her. She's a sexual being. She and Alex, you know, did this and I was part of it, but I'm just this good guy. And it happened. You know,

I don't know if there's any complete denied. Like, it's as weird as that is. Like I think he's just like, yeah, this is Lori's fault. We won't know. We won't know where he stands unless he takes,

we don't know his current beliefs unless he takes the stand and offers some testimony, which, you know, I hope he does, because I really, I really want to get inside the guy's mind, but, and see if he's changed. You know, but yeah, I don't know. I mean, at least at this moment in time, on November 24th of 2019, which is

after the murders, this is how Chad Debo thinks. So if a forensic psychologist would go back and look at before, during, and after the commission of the crimes to assess mental state, this would probably be the most compelling evidence that we would have in terms of assessing kind of his mental state and his belief system at the time.

and he's a true believer at that time. Now, when you're on trial for your life, things can change. You know, he may amend those beliefs, but I'm not, like you said, I'm not sure he has. Right. And I've talked about this before. One of our gems made the analogy with, and I haven't seen this movie in a long time, so you have to, I'm not, made the analogy with the Matrix, I guess, where the, The, is Neo?

Do you have you seen this movie? It's been a lot. I've seen it, but like years ago. Where Neo is, I guess Neo is the leader. Neo is a little hesitant to believe, but then people tell him

that he's the prophet or whatever he is and then he starts believing in and that then leads to his ability to use these special powers he has. I think it's something like, I've referred to Chad as the accidental cult leader in the sense that he writes these books.

He doesn't really intend to have, you know, he wants to be important, he wants these books to matter, but he doesn't see these books having the ripple effects that they have. He doesn't see people perceiving these books to be scripture. He doesn't anticipate that people are going to really perceive, him to be a visionary and a profit. And the more they do that, I guess in that sense, it's like Neo, if I'm getting the name right. I don't, from the Matrix, that the more these people believe in him, the more he starts believing. So he's in a role.

Everybody's saying you're right, by the way. You can confidently say his name. Okay. So the more, that's good. I need, I told the gem, it seemed like a great analogy. I said, I need to watch it again, but the movie. But, um, But the more Neil was told about his powers, the more he's able to enact those powers. And I think you have something similar with Chad Dable. The more he's placed in that role, and the more people shower praise on him and believe in him. And Lori in particular, Lori is the one who probably heaps the most praise towards him and believes in him the most. Then he starts, it starts snowballing.

And he becomes, he begins to believe that, that he, that he, he, he begins to believe that, that, he's a prophet and that he deserves to be in that role. Yeah. Just to believe that Chad truly believes it now has really helped me in some better light the past this week. So thank you for that. I like to comment, though, that we received today where they, after today in court, which was very bizarre,

said, I wonder what the jury's thinking if they, actually believe this or they're like, what the actual F am I in, am I in some sort of experiment? You know, is this not really a jury, but am I in just some sort of experiment? Oh, did John freeze? Oh, no, you were just. I'm reading some of the comments. Someone said, Dr. John, it's good practice to rewatch Keanu Reeves movies just in general. Yes, I agree.

I'm going to have to go on a Keanu Reeves bin watching, binge watching. You can start with speed. Start with, well, I probably don't want to start with Bill and Ted's excellent adventure. Start with Bill and Ted's go to speed, his two best films. Yeah, maybe I might have to skip Bill and Tads, but especially Bill and Ted's too. I haven't seen that. But, yeah, no, speed was okay. Well, speed was good.

Speed, I remember Speed was pretty good. The Matrix is good. You know, Point Brank was an amazing movie for, the 90s or 80. I don't remember. It's been so long, but he's done some good movies, but let's get back to chat Dave Bell here.

Well, we can actually let you get back to, we'll let you get back to your household duties. And I'll get back to editing as we, we just want to thank all of you. We have almost 3,000 people here for a surprise live tonight. Please, it truly does help us. hit like and to subscribe if you haven't. And we are working so hard, sacrificing some time together, spouses and parenting and working because this trial is so important to us. And so thank you,

everyone, for your support tonight and for your support always. I will be on, go ahead. Sorry. Oh, I wasn't done making some of my major, my major point. You, oh, well, I, oh, I, I thought you were about to say, we still need to talk about the Matrix. But go ahead. And then I'll conclude. I'm like, wait. I forgive my goodbye. I'm backtracking.

You're about to exit without talking about the blessing. Well, I thought you needed to get back. And so I was just trying to hurry for you. We'll keep you here all night. Keep going. I do. But as long as we've come this far. Let's go.

Go on. Go on. I'm here. I'm here for the combo. Yeah, so I'm just going to point out a few parts of the blessing that I think are real. If you want to understand Chad Dayball, or in part, if you want to understand Chad Dayball, there's moment, there's a... Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day.

Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the Internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands. of scammers, spammers, even stalkers. It's why you get endless robocalls and why ads seem to follow you everywhere. That's where ORA comes in. Ora actively removes your data from broker sites and keeps it off. They also instantly alert you if your information shows up in a breach or on the dark web. But ORA goes beyond data protection. With one app, you get a VPN, antivirus, password manager, spam call protection, dark web monitoring, and even up to $5 million

in identity theft insurance, all backed by 24-7 U.S.-based fraud support. Other companies might sell just credit monitoring or just a VPN. ORA gives you all of it together at the same price competitors charge for just one service. Start your free trial today at aura.com slash remove. Protect yourself now at aura.com slash remove. We're a recurring theme throughout this blessing, which has to do with purity. And we've talked about this before, this idea of disgust sensitivity. Discuss sensitivity is highly correlated with certain beliefs.

and with certain moral stance that people that are lower in terms of disgust sensitivity tend to be a little more rigid and they tend to be particularly more rigid when it comes to morality. And I mean, you certainly see that with Chad Deval. He's not exactly the most open-minded guy. But one of the things,

So he talks about this. One of the things he says about Alex is, by soul is cleansed and all is well. He says later that Alex will be known throughout the world for his goodheartedness and a willingness to save souls, that he will testify as a prophet. So he's deeming Alex to be a prophet. And then he says this.

He says, he talks about angels. and how peer they are. This is a quote. He says that Alex will be involved in, quote, rescuing peer and innocent, rescuing the pure and innocent, and leading them safely in dozens of instances. So why is this important?

Because his whole belief system is, a lot of his belief system has this foundation and this idea of purity. That if you're pure, and innocent that somehow you're saved. And if you're not, then you're damned. And so this idea of saving souls is related to this idea of purity and innocence. And the reason this is important, because if you want to understand how Chad Daybell can get to murder

and especially murdering kids, it's because he didn't see these kids as pure and innocent. He saw them as demonic. He saw them as somehow tainted. He saw them as impure. Right. And so like you see in this blessing, just the simplicity of his beliefs and how he's reducing everything

to kind of this idea of purity, which by the way, that's a major element in a lot of cults. The idea of purification, purifying the world. He talks about the angel will, I forget the exact reference here, but the angel will cleanse the earth

before, before or after the apocalypse before the New Jerusalem. And so you kind of really, you know, again, getting inside Chad Daybell's mind, you kind of see the importance of this. Thank you.

Yeah. You're here. Anything else? No, that's it. That's a long way from Neo. I like that, yeah. Yeah, just some final thoughts there. And drawing parallels with other cults

and other cults that put this tremendous stress on purity and cleansing. And typically the way you accomplish that is you, leave this world, right? That if this world's tainted and impure and damned or whatever you want to see it, if it's dirty, and this ties, disgust sensitivity has a strong relationship with the body as well. That the body is never completely pure. The body, right, is harder to control than something that's spiritual, something that's otherworldly.

And so some of this has to do with kind of, leaving behind any disgust or imperfections that might be attributed to the body. And again, this goes to the idea of translated beings, that they're not human. They're pure. And so the whole basis of this thought, of this belief system, is to try to transcend something that has to do that's not pure, that has to do with being human. And so that is the type of belief. system that gets you to the place that Chad Daybeau and Lori, who now convicted murderer,

it gets you to the place where they land. That was brilliant. Thank you. I want to say when I saw Chad look at the photos of the jurors were seen of the remains, there were three or four jurors crying. Chad was not one of them, but he did shake his head and sense. I've wondered if it was a bit of disgust or some being appalled, despite the fact that he did this. Well, I don't know.

You know, part of the belief system here, I think there's a strange sense in which I think Chad and Lori believed that they were helping Charles and JJ entirely because they were removing the imperities and they were sending them to a world that was much. purer. And so in a twisted, in a very peculiar twist of logic, I think they, they would argue that in some ways they were doing these folks of favor because they were demonic and they were impure and they could achieve this purity by leaving their bodies and going somewhere else. Yes. And good point. Annalise, New Zealand.

We know that Chad spent at least 90 minutes with Emma just before this, likely conditioning her and to be supportive of him. Right. He was there with her. Thank you, John. I miss you. And thank you to our gems who keep me company every day. We're in chat every day during the live trial stream.

And even though I'm not writing as much so that I can make sure that I stay well-behaved in court. I look at my phone and I see everyone chatting and I'm just so grateful to all of you are keeping me comfort while I'm away from home. So every day we are in our live stream, our watching the trial together. And if you don't have a trial home, you're welcome here. And yeah, if this actually this live stream will redirect to tomorrow's live stream. I also want to let you all know that tomorrow night I will be on web sleuth with Tricia Griffith.

We have a really nice time over there. Tricia is a friend. She is actually the one that named Dr. John. That wasn't just something I started calling him when we were dating, even though a lot of you probably think that. I wasn't like, hello, Dr. John. Nice to meet you.

No, Trisha Griffith told John over a web sleuth that he needed to be Dr. John and it stuck. So it was not my natural pet name. Oh, I thought on our first date, I told you you have to call me Dr. John. You're like, that's doctor to you. Yeah, right. It's like one of my favorite quotes from the Austin Powers movies from Dr. Evil. Yes.

He didn't go to freaking evil school. to be called Mr. Evil. He didn't go to evil school for nothing. He went to evil school so he could be called Dr. Evil. So we've gone from the Matrix to Bill and Ted's. Right. To Austin Power. I think it's time to go to bed.

I think that's a call. But nothing like a doctor. quoting fellow doctor, Dr. Evil. Dr. Evil, yeah. Dr. Evil, one of the great psychologists in film history. I did want to, I'm sorry, I did want to leave with one further point, and that is towards the end of the blessing, he tells Alex that your veil will be gone. and that's a really critical moment by the way.

I forgot, I'm sorry, I forgot to mention it. I'll lead with the final thought here. But when I heard that again, it struck me more of this time. I don't know why, but he's really, like the whole idea that the veil has disappeared. So Chad's vow was ripped and that gave him the status of prophecy. But to have your vow gone, that basically means you're a deity. So the veil is what separates the human from the divine. And he's telling Alex, you can be like me, your veil can be gone, you can be a deity.

And so it's an incredible moment in that blessing. And again, getting back to like, what is it that Chad believes? That's such a critical element in his belief that in some ways he sees this whole idea of not just ripping the veil, but eliminating the veil altogether is being kind of the key to achieving, you know, divinity, immortality, transcendence. And, you know, from my perspective, there's, it's, clearly that's an impossible goal. You know, I mean, the veil is a metaphor, first of all. Let's, let's say that.

Like, there's not literally a veil in your brain that you can have a surgeon removed. So that I'm aware of, you know, maybe it's in the prefrontal cortex somewhere, but I don't think there's a veil in the brain that's that obvious. Chad believes that, by the way. He thinks there's literally a veil on his brain. So I guess I just want to mention that because it was something at the end of the blessing that really stood out for me. And just this whole idea, I'll end where we started our whole podcast years ago,

four years ago, with the idea that, you know, it might be worthwhile to seek some level of transcendence or excellence or the impossible. I don't know, whatever we want to call it, but it's really not attainable. And so this idea that somehow somebody like Chad Debo attains that and believes he can attain it and thinks he did attain it is problematic, right? I guess my point is like in the end being human is good, that we should celebrate what we have and who we are. And even if our bodies are imperfect and they fall apart,

they're still a part of us. They're still what they're part of what makes us human. And I think that we can celebrate or I want to celebrate that. So this whole idea that somehow we're going to eliminate these vails and become translated beings is not only unrealistic, but a denial of who we fundamentally are as human beings. Thank you. I will go meet you in my portal closet later tonight. Don't forget to wear your helmet.

There's, you know, there's in the portal closet that there's like a, a, a bull's eye. And if you miss it just by a fraction of an inch and you're not wearing a helmet, you're going to get really injured. So if you're going to do the portal, if you're going to do the portal closet, make sure you wear a helmet.

I will pass into the portal closet. And I will go to bed because we're both punchy. So it's... Yeah, it's been a long day. For sleep. I love us humans too. Kathy. Turbulance of the port.

portal. Thank you, everyone. I'll see you tomorrow in our live chat here in Hidden 2 Crime. And then I am also scheduled for court TV. News is always changing, so I never completely announced that. It could change an hour before. But right now, I'm scheduled for it. And then WebSloose. So thank you, everyone. For those that do listen to our podcast, forgive me. I am behind. I was actually. actually going to edit, edit, edit today. But I got a day belt tip about Melanie Gibb. I wanted to take the phone call.

And then I wanted to jump on with Dr. John. So thank you, everyone. Here's to being human. That's what we will celebrate at our Bellagio pool party. And someone also said, let's not forget J.J. Tyler, Charles, and Tammy also. And of course, yes, this is more than anything, as I always say. about justice and let's never forget them. Thank you. All right, everyone. Have a great night.

See you. Good night. Good night. Hello, Hidden Jems. It's Lauren with Hidden a True Crime podcast. As a TV reporter, I learned the art of visual storytelling. So if you're like me, you enjoy listening, but also viewing. You can actually head to our YouTube channel, Hidden True Crime, to watch these interviews. Hit the subscribe button for surprise lives and breaking news. And for exclusive content, things Dr. John and I only dare say behind a paywall, become a Patreon member at patreon.com slash hidden true crime. You'll find bonus episodes, early releases, and insider info. Thank you for your endless support.

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