Hidden True Crime - CHAD DAYBELL TRIAL: Tammy Daybell's Aunt Vicki Hoban talks Jury Selection

Episode Date: April 10, 2024

Vicki Hoban, Chad Daybell's Aunt is in court every day along with Lauren Matthias. They share their experience with jury selection. Join Hidden True Crime as we follow the Chad Daybell's trial beginning to end. Host Lauren Matthias is in the courtroom every day, doing lunch lives on YouTube and summarizing each day and week right here on Hidden: A True Crime Podcast. As jury selection begins, we speak with two jurors from Lori Vallow Daybell's trial. LAUREN MATTHIAS was a television reporter for a decade, and has followed the Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell case since 2019. Lauren and her husband John Matthias, a criminal psychologist, started Hidden True Crime in 2020 with their Season: 'Beyond the Veil' a psychological deep dive into the doomsday murders and prophet.  A podcast that started at their dinner table has now turned into the dynamic husband and wife duo of Dr. John Matthias, a forensic psychologist, and Lauren Matthias, an investigative journalist, delving into the psychological facets of unthinkable crimes every week. Thank you for your support through sponsorships, subscribing, listening, and becoming at Patreon member at Patreon.com/HiddenTrueCrime Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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It is happiness at work from AI products. If any some potential jurors did

not hold back and Chad Debel looked away when they told the court they already

believe he's guilty. Today was day three of jury selection in the Doomsday Profit

murder trial at the same courthouse where wife Lori Valo the Doomsday Colt Mom

was found guilty of murder last year. Today more potential jurors made it through to the next round. The court needing the magic number of 50 before the final jury will be seated. So far, jury questions have centered around hardship, death penalty beliefs, and knowledge of the case. One potential juror looked over at Chad and said

the defense needs to bring their quote, A game. He also said this. With this defendant hearing this trial, can you tell us if you do believe you that forms some opinion about this guilt? At this time, I honestly don't know. I have to go in maintaining that. I don't know. All right, but it's fair to say you're not completely without some opinion here. It does. And again, we can openly discuss this here.

So if you are meaning one way or another, which way are you leaning right now? Right now, just based on the next year, we have to say I'm meeting towards guild. Today in the gallery we have seen national media police who work the case and podcasters from across the country, including Lauren Matthias from the hidden true crime podcast who also covered Lori's trial. So talk to me about this trial so far. We're just in jury selection. You've been in there every day. Your feet away from the defendant like I am. What's your thoughts? It's actually really interesting. I think what we're learning is strategy. I think we're going to understand. I think we're definitely learning about John, strategy when it comes to defending Chad Daybell. I think that's been the most interesting thing when he's asking potential jurors about, do you understand that everything that glitters is not gold or, come on, some of you have lied before, tell me the truth about that. I think he's setting up his potential argument, and that's been really interesting to watch. What observations do you have of Chad Daybell? I noticed that he likes everything neat and tidy on the defense table. Have you noticed anything else? I've noticed that he hardly moves his head.

He'll even do a lot of side eyeing. Like if John Pryor writes something rather than turn to look at what John Pryor's writing, he'll just look with his eye to the side. Like he never moves his neck. And when he does sort of move, it's very soft and just he'll he'll look at the jury. He'll look at the jurors, but he'll not move his full chair to be looking. He just kind of slightly moves. It's really interesting. So hardly any movements.

And then he is blinking. I know that there are a lot of people out there that have watched prior court proceedings and there's there's sort of this ongoing joke or this idea that Chad Dayball doesn't blink. I am seeing him blink, but what I don't see is movement at all. He just stands so very still with his hands class. But he has turned around and looked at people in the courtroom too. Like I looked at him. I made eye contact with him. So he is very curious about who's there. It's interesting. And jury selection picks up tomorrow morning.

Could run the rest of the week, Vinny. Hidden, a true crime podcast. A forensic psychologist and a journalist explore the hidden motives behind unthinkable crimes while examining our deepest fears along the way. Hello, Hidden Jens. I am with a special woman, a special Hidden Gem herself, Vicki Hoban, Tammy Daybell's aunt, she has been representing her niece Tammy at this trial, and even during this tedious jury selection process. tedious but interesting, I might say.

I think something that's good for the public to hear. And it was a very, very big day. Before we begin, I just want everyone to know, I am feeling better. I have not been doing well. I am okay now. I actually decided to go to the quick care today. Finally, it had been about a week of just stuff going on. I'm glad I went.

And then I did go back to court. You and I, Vicki, were like shifts in the night because I know you were having a harder time this morning with some things and logistics at home. And so then I just decided I needed to go home and rest. And then I woke up to about 40 texts and huge news about the fact, the breaking news, the lead, which is go ahead. Do you want to say it, Vicki?

They can start their preempts, I think, tomorrow. I mean, I don't know what's going to happen. But all I know is when they hit 50, I was like, are we? done? Are they going to keep going? And they went ahead and finished that group. And then Tom, the juror from Tom Evans, I turned around and he goes, we have 52. And I just like, teared up. And I was like, we have a jury. Like, we have a jury. And that was like we were worried, you know, of course, you're always worried until like things happen. And yeah, I just I was so happy.

And you could fill the courtroom, though. Everybody was just like happy. Everybody was smiling. The judge had a little smile on his face. So it's like, yeah, we got there. And not only did we get to 50, as you point out, we got to 52 or 53. They were like, let's just throw a cherry on top and make this. Let's give some alternate possible jurors.

It's a job. It's a big job. I didn't realize it until this week. I'm glad I came, even though it's tedious. I'm glad I came. It gave me a great appreciation for the jury. Yeah, you were sharing that would be yesterday. You and I had dinner yesterday.

And you were sharing that, that after seeing the process and what these jurors go through just to land on a jury and what they go through during trial. Well, you did the live with Tom and Laura. And I think for me, I was watching it. And I think that was the day I had a migraine. And I was in my room and I was watching it. And my head was trying.

But the more I was listening to, I wasn't watching so much after a while. And I was listening to them. And it really just hit me how, you know, emotionally, what an emotionally charged. issue this is not just for our family, but for every single person that's involved in any way. And that goes out to like just people following the case, everybody. You know, it's like there's a big rock stone in the water. And, you know, we're the big splash in the middle.

And then as you go out, you know, it just keeps reverberating people everywhere. You guys that cover it. And the detectives, the, you know, the people that work in the courthouse that every day we see them. the jurors, I mean, just everybody is so invested. And, you know, I give a lot of messages about people praying for me. And I'm like, I need, you know, I really need those because it keeps me going and doing the traveling. And, you know, it just, it helps me along.

But I'm thinking, Tom and Laura both said that they'd had to go to counseling. And I thought, you know, I've had to do it myself. So it's not, you know, it's not like I'm not aware that. that's kind of a necessary thing when you're really connected in a deep way. But it's also something I didn't think about. You know, I thought, gosh, you know, here I'm going thinking, well, you know, this is my family and my sister and my niece and got, you know, all these things. And as I've come to love Kay and Larry and, you know, gotten to know, J.J. me more through them and just, you know, really affected by it.

And then when I heard Tom and Laura talking, I'm thinking, these are people that had to go to counseling too. They've gone through, they've been traumatized. And so, yeah, so this week, as I watched the jury, I was just really, like, just listening to what they were saying. They have a lot of opinions, and they also, a lot of them don't know anything about the case. They haven't, and it's been, you know, it's been a while, so it's four and a half years.

So it's, I don't think it's, a lot of it's fresh, even though people may have seen news headlines at that time. Some of them don't watch the news. Some of them watched a lot. Some of them watched Netflix. Some of them watched, you know, podcast. That got brought up quite a bit this week. And, you know, I just really, it just really touched me and the different way. So it was emotional.

for me because, yeah, I'm ready for this to wrap up and have sort of an ending to it. But this is going to be a big eight to ten weeks for us. And for me personally, for my family, you know, for Tammy's siblings, my other nieces and nephews, our whole extended family, Ron. it's but it's going to be huge for you and all the other people that you know they're really invested I mean I you know the amount of time

and energy and effort you guys have put in and by the end of the trial the amount of effort energy time away from their families things you're going to hear or see the it's it's a lot and so you know I just

I think I just mostly want to say, I appreciate it. You know, it's not going to be going unnoticed. I think last time I was so into my feeling of my sister and Tammy that I, and I still will be, but I think I just have, it's opened my eyes. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of this case, even the Woodcocks have stated this on, on their TV interviews at this case, you know, they realize there's a lot about Tammy.

that Tammy, this is, and there will be more evidence about Tammy. And Lori was not there, actually. She was in Hawaii. And I think that Tammy is going to be a greater part of this case. And this is justice for Tammy. How are you handling being her representative here every day already just for jury selection? You know, I just, I'm trying to be a little lighter. I know, you know, I'm trying to come in with a little bit of a lighter heart.

It's not really working for me because I'm an emotional. I wear my emotions on my sleeve. You know that about me. I'm an emotional person. You know, I love really hard. I, our whole family is like that. We do love hard. And so it's just that, you know,

not everybody's like that and I know that. And it's not good, bad, different. It's just the way we are. And so I think I'm going to make it. And I've got nieces and some Tammy, I'm sure Samantha will be here, family coming that are going to probably be maybe part of the trial. We just have quit talking about it in the family because I don't know who. I just told everybody don't tell me who's got subpoenas and who doesn't.

I'm not going to talk to anybody about it just to be on the safe side. Because I don't want anybody that has something to say to ruin it. because, you know what I mean? Because I'm always open. I always tell him, hey, call me, talk to me. If you need me, I'm here. But this is one time I said, don't tell me. Because I just, I don't want, then we've talked about it enough in four years that, you know,

we know a lot of things that haven't been maybe talked about in court yet. So it's, you know, I think there's no any new things that come out, obviously. It's a whole different case. And Mr. Pryor, Chad's lawyer said that, you know, He's going to be a vigorous defense. So I'm anxious to see what that is. There's some people are saying there are some slight audio issues, and I'm hearing it too. We are working on it, everyone.

So I hope. But I think for the most part we can hear. Can you hear? Okay. I can hear you perfectly. How about now? Is it better? Is it better now?

Everybody? Say something. Hello. Hey, you have a beautiful singing voice. I can tell. My phone is in. the top of a coffee maker in a hotel room with a coffee mate holding it in place. So we're fancy over here.

I just am living the life here. Okay. Well, actually, I do think it sounds better, whatever you did, whatever coffee cup you moved. This is not good for you. No. Let me ask a question. They want to know how well you knew, Chad, also known as Slug. Sorry.

Announced that? I did. Well, I did during my lunch life. So I went back to after the InstaCare and I decided, look, like, I'm going to go home and take a break so that I can be ready for tomorrow. And the actual trial, I was there at the end listening in and I did a lunch live. And I did kind of throw out that. From a very reliable source, what the officials of the Madison County, County JL call Chad Debaugh.

We ready for this? They call him Slug. Slug is his nickname. Slug because of the way he moves at his posture and the way he asks for things and the way he kind of slugs away and the way he moves his head. Slug.

So we are about to head into the opening statements, probably sooner than we thought, of slug Daybell's trial. Don't worry. I won't be that. I will call him Chad. I will call him Chad Daybell's trial. But you can all now know that many in Madison County know him as slug. I didn't think you'd be able to keep that in very long. It was such a juicy thing.

I know. When I have hot tea, I just got a little. let our community know. I can't wait too long. Well, this is the thing about Chad. How well did I know him? That's a good question. How well did anybody know him? I, you know, he was part of our family for 27 years, and he's, you know, around us, he was more of a reserved, you know, kind of reserved and quiet. and a lot of times, you know, he, but there were family functions he didn't come to, mission farewells and that kind of thing. And then, you know, he would come and like he, he was a quiet guy.

I mean, I had lots of talks with them about books and different things because they knew that that's what his interest was and just chatting. I knew his family really well. his dad more than his mom but I knew his brother Matt really well I've taught him in Sunday school and I love Matt he's just a great guy he's just a salt of the earth I love him and then his wife had their sweethearts but I knew the day bills pretty well I mean they live his dad was in the bishop and our ward and my his know his know was also because he was the final financial clerk and so you know we knew them well I mean I as far as like chat

actually Chad and like I didn't socialize with them but I mean you know I'd go over and see the kids and Garth was little and they had him and Garth and so yeah I mean like you would normally know a nephew-in-law that's the way I knew Chad so I think just you know I wasn't like hanging out of them every weekend now but you know, family functions and things like that when he came, we chatted. And I found him to be pleasant. When he wasn't, uh, you know, a barn burner, but you know, found him to be pleasant. You know, I mean, you know, now I, when I read, you know, some of the things and I don't know what else is going to come out. There's going to be plenty, I'm sure, but you know, I don't know

how long, you know. Who, who did know him? And I think a good, though, thing to say is like, you did you grew up in this area you grew up with the daybells you grew up with uh the your family and and and then you also knew tyly and and you'd met tyley even oddly i mean we were my kids yeah they grew up for the most part in springville and that's getting to be a you know a bad word that was everything that's going on with you know different people but and then we moved Arizona and so that's my daughter and her husband, they moved, and then we went down. Well, we moved and then they came, and then they actually are the ones that were in the same ward as Charles and Loring. And that's how the connection there, because my daughter was in the primary presidency.

So she knew the kids really well. And then my niece, or sorry, my granddaughter was a really good friend with Tiley. And so that's how I knew them. I had seen her at her birthday parties and stuff like that. Yeah, I've got some cute pictures of Tiley. I'd love to, you know, show people and stuff. But, you know, I just am really careful. You know, I don't want to step on anybody's toes.

You know, as a family, I think everybody's just decided until everything is over. We're just not going to be really seeing a lot of things. I know people are dying to see pictures and stuff. but those will eventually come out yeah yeah um i've seen some of those photos and they are beautiful and it is just an absolute coincidence that you just happen to get to know tiley as well an incredible coincidence and just showing just how much this has affected your whole family it's insane it's even people that know about it that know us that they're just like it's it's so hard to even fathom that And what world would you know both parts to this when they live in different states even?

You know what I mean? It's just the crazy world that we live in. I don't know. This is not a question you have to answer. It's actually a question that people ask you every time. Lollipop question. Are Tammy's kids keeping their distance from the family right now? Where are they drawing support from?

You know, her kids are close to each other. as far as I know. I think they're all adults. You know, they all have families of their own now. And they had for the most part, you know, families, little families when, you know, all this happened. But, you know, I think that they, they know that, you know, we love them. They are, we have not stopped considering them family or loving them and all.

those are Tammy's kids that will never change. And I don't know because it's not something that we discuss with them. It's not something that we are, it's not, you know, I've tried to put myself in Tammy's space and think, if those were my kids, how would I want them treated? How would I want people to talk about and what would I want them to say? I think I'm trying to honor that. And then on the same hand, you know, I'm trying to always. also be a good, great aunt and not point the finger at them for the way that they're acting.

Because unless you've walked in those shoes, I don't know how you would behave or how you would react. I think that they are doing the best with what they've been dealt. And at some point, maybe they'll come out and maybe never. Maybe they just try to live their lives, you know, and not really ever have to speak to it. don't know about that, but I do keep in contact with them on social media and I love them. And like I said, that's not going to change whether they support Chad or not. They're still family. How does it feel sitting in that courtroom with Chad Daybell?

Well, that's weird. It's a little weird for me. Yeah, I think on the first day, we all were walking in and he was already set down. And he was kind of turning around watching everybody. And then, you know, I looked at him and he looked away. And so I think he was probably, you know, it's been a lot of years. So that this isn't going on. So I think he's probably surprised to see me there.

But I, you know, I did want him to see me. I want him to know that I'm going to be there every day. and I'm going to be listening and watching. And, you know, if they're going to pull a rabbit out of a hat, I'm ready to see it. But right now I've seen a awful lot of evidence, you know, at the other trial. So we'll see. What have you thought about John Pryor's? Well, let me ask you this.

What do you think about the jury selection? It feels like we're maybe hearing a bit of their argument with John. prior's questioning but but what are your thoughts there I'm just not a pontificator and so I don't find that to be astute I don't prior's yeah job fire is in other words I mean I feel like you can ask somebody something once and get a direct answer and be okay with it But, you know, most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the Internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent.

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Just use code hidden true crime to save 20% off. Plus, if you subscribe, you'll get an additional 20% off. Discover your true age today. I feel like I have an idea. I've shared it on my lunch light, but yeah, I'll share it again. I think all that glitters is not gold, his obsession with glitter. I mean, the guy, I don't, I wish we, you know, if there was a drinking game for how many times John, you know, John Pryor said glitter, we'd all be drunk. But I think his all that glitter is not gold is Lori, Valo.

He actually referred to the country song, which is about a deceptive woman, all that glitter is not gold. And he's, so laying that foundation. And then I think that as he asks each, a jury. if they've ever lied and then implies that you guys have all, you know, told white lies and you have all lied at times. You know, everybody admits that they have not been perfectly honest in their life. I think he's setting the stage to pretty much say, look, my client lied about his affair. He lied about, you know, Lori being an empty nest or he lied and lied and lied. But lying doesn't make him a murderer because all that glitter is gold.

Thus, it's the woman's fault. That glitter, glitter, glitter, glitter, she did. just made him bury kids in his yard, you know, and kill his wonderful wife of 30 years. I agree with the fact that every man that cheats that does not murder their wives. I agree with that 100%. I mean, that's why there's divorce.

And so that's the purpose of it. And it's when people don't use legal, you know, ways to do things that they get into trouble. So, you know, I think he shoots himself from the foot sometimes by saying things like that. Because, yeah, he's right. Not everybody does do that. And I look at that. When he says something like that, my mind goes and does something else with it.

Because I can, I'm trying to redo the line, you know, read to the line basically and see what. Oh yeah, we know. It is a, yeah, you're right. Well, I actually love this. Sterly Nash is saying the quote is actually all that glisters is not gold. It's Shakespeare. The day that John Pryor quotes Shakespeare, let me know. We'll talk about it.

Well, he's talked a lot about his love of country music. Right. John Pryor quotes country lyric, country music lyrics. We leave it to John. Matthias to quote Shakespeare and Sterling. There you go. Well, it was kind of funny because he asked him if they knew the list. And I think some of them kind of, you know, no, really.

I mean, I think, isn't that a pretty old song? It is. Isn't that like back in like the 60s or something? I don't. It's old. But these jurors, some of them look pretty dang young. so yeah yeah but you know I'm gonna now I'm gonna look it up because now I'm yes here we go we have it right here 1995 oh okay a crime to remember says that Tammy has amazing family still fighting for justice much love

and prayers to all of you during this difficult time I can't agree more a crime to remember thank you not only have you have been still fighting for justice for years and years you've been fighting for justice. Yeah. And it's, you know, it's like one of those things that, you know,

I asked my husband before I came up this time. I'm like, gosh, am I really making a difference by going? You know, should I just be like everybody and just watch it on TV and just cheer, you know,

but scream at the TV and cheer and do all that. And he's like, you would never be able to live with yourself. He did that. He says, you have promised your sister. You need to, you know, you just, you don't go back on promises. You have a lot to go.

And I was like, that's so true. Hey, gosh, me and my big mouth. But I had planned on coming with my other sister, which would have been so nice. But she just had her knee replaced, like, last week. So she's, you know, she's healing. And she's so, I'm just looking forward this time. have my nieces come up and like maybe have you know a little bit of time with them and you know we've got our little family here to you and laura and kay and larry and you know we've got our little

family and we rely on each other and take care of each other and and that's okay too but i'm you know i don't think i could have i just feel like i need to be here and um i was reading a text from my sister that she sent me last year before the last trial. And I just remember her saying, thank you. And I love you for being able to do this for me. And, you know, I got really choked up over it because I'm glad I can still do it. It kind of gives me a little touchstone with her. So, yeah.

I'm so glad too. Yeah. Yeah. I love seeing those ducks in the fountain yesterday. They're there for us. They're so cute. Everybody was talking about it in the old courthouse. You bought it up and then I saw everybody was like,

there's ducks out in the fountain out there. Oh, my gosh. Rebecca is asking a question just to get us to know Tammy a little bit more if you have any stories about her, but she's asking what Tammy's sense of humor was like. I'm a children's librarian. and my favorite books are the cheeky ones. Yeah.

So I could see, yeah, she can enjoy that kind of thing a lot too. In fact, I don't know what her favorite books were. I mean, she loved all books, but she is the type of person that you could have a good laugh with. She would throw her head back and laugh and she had a big, big smile. But we could be in a baby shower or something and somebody would say something to do something. and then you could look at her and you could both just laugh. So is that kind of a person where you could, wait, see what I heard? And then get a good laugh out of it.

So, yeah, she could be fun like that. And I think she just was a, you know, she was just, she was so, I want to say reliable, but that's almost like not even what I mean. but she was like steady. You know, she was like the person that she didn't like give up. She wasn't a naysayer. She was a can do girl. And that to me, that's my favorite kind of person,

somebody that, you know, you give them a little something and they can make something out of it. Or they can just say, yeah, I can do that. or yeah, it doesn't it be like that fancy, but what about if we do this or like she was like that? And like I took, I think I told you before she made the like 12 dresses for my daughter or my daughter's wedding. And she was making them with silk and they were sliding all. She wrote she just called me one day. She goes this fabric sliding all over the place. Like I don't know if these are, they may look like clown outfits.

I don't know what's going to happen. And I says, you know what? I'm not even going to. You do it how you want to do it. it if you have to buy new fabric that's okay but you do the best you can do because I know it's going to be perfect when it's done and we went over the four or five for the wedding and she brought them out and I'm like oh my gosh they were gorgeous I wish had a picture I have to get on the show because they were beautiful and I was like what were you worried about she goes oh my gosh that

this was so tough, but I just, she wanted to do it for Julie. And yeah, it was just, she just did what she had to do. And I don't even know what it was because she didn't even call me back and say anything because I just know you can do it, just do the best you can. I know it'll be beautiful. And it was just fun, you know, she was just that kind of person. It wasn't like I was over there all the time having her do stuff, but when we worked together, we had a great time. But it was like just a normal aunt-niece relationship and she was you know she was a newlywed and then she started having kids and um at that time i didn't have grandkids so i would just you know go there and drop little things off for her kids and little toys and little just you know stop by and see her and

yeah and then she you know she had her own family i mean she was married you know for 20 seven years. Like, you know, she lived her own life. And she was just, you know, she had a beautiful family. And so, you know, nobody deserves to go out of that. You know, nobody deserves that. Nobody deserves that. Nobody has the right to take that from anybody. And it's like we were talking the other day about people that have special needs. and we're like, you know, who's the person to decide whether or not they have value? Who is that, you know, well, they don't communicate and they don't do this and says, well, they still have as much value as you do because they are a member of a family that loves them. They're a person that has experiences.

You don't maybe know what those are, but they are having them. So it's just like just the whole thing just as a whole with Tammy with Tiley and JJ. It's just it was just so wrong, you know, it was just so wrong in the way. I mean, murder's obviously always wrong and abuse and everything else. But when you think of it as a whole thing and you are trying to make sense of it, you really get, you go down this path of nobody gets to decide when somebody leaves this world and nobody gets to make them go out before their maker decides. And, and I think that's the thing that just like I just, you know, because I mean, she had a beautiful life. And he would

continue to have a beautiful life. Like, you know, he could he have, um, gone or, you know, gone to her and said, I want a divorce or whatever. Sure. Would we have all been mad? Yeah, sure. Would she have been brokenhearted? Absolutely. But she would live through it.

We would have been there for her. Yeah. A lot of people just want you to, oh, go ahead. No, no, go ahead. People are saying that your smile is a lot like Tammy. He's Tammy and you both have a beautiful smile. Other people are saying that, um, you're making her come alive in a way that they hadn't heard and that if she's anything like you,

they absolutely realize what a wonderful woman she is. So thank you. We have big teeth in our family. That's why my sweat. That's why we all, yeah, we all have big teeth. So we're like the Osmond's. Holly asks, and this is something, I know this is kind of going back a little bit, and it might be too much for you right now.

But were you surprised when Chad was a suspect as well as Lori? Can you help us understand how you learned about it, about what was going on? Because it wasn't so clear cut like it was for the media, you know. Well, I think I talked about this before. When, before anything was done with, before I knew about the kids or Lori or anything, I knew that Tammy was not sick. And so I was suspicious from the very moment that it had. happen because I was like, well, somebody like 49 year old or 48 years, you know,

we just lost you for a second. Sorry. Like that's not a normal thing for somebody that doesn't have any health issues. Yeah, could it happen, I guess, but you wouldn't, you would know that if you got an autopsy. And so the fact that there was no autopsy done and she was a young woman, I just, yeah, I just, yeah, it made me suspicious, you know, and my whole family was, and I think a lot of our family. In fact, we just talked about it, and we were upset that there was no autopsy. And so from then on, for the next couple of weeks, you know, there was a lot of talking about it.

And then I think we were, you know, they, fellas and Mont always treated him. like a son. So I don't think, I don't, I don't know if they were suspicious or not. They knew that she wasn't sick, but I never had that conversation with Phyllis because she was heartbroken that it, uh, when she found out that it was Chad, she felt. And it was like having your own kid do something like that. And, um, I mean, I think everybody was heartbroken in their own way, but I, I was me personally. And I think I told you, I am like, kind of a suspicious person anyway. Not suspicious, but I'm careful with who I share my life with.

And now I'm like really bad. I mean, and I think we talked about this, I have a phobia of like different things now that I never used to. And but yeah, the answer to the question is, did I think there was something up from the beginning? Yes. And I went, of course, we found out about Lori. Yeah. That was, sorry, I have to keep going like that. People keep texting me.

I think that once they realized that he married Lori, it was everybody was just taken aback. And that's not normal behavior. Well, and especially like Julie, like your daughter, Julie. Oh. You can't hear me? Hello, hello. Can anybody hear me or is it just or is it just Vicky?

Vicki makes fun of how many times my mic. Can you guys hear me? Yeah. So, yeah. All right. I don't learn anything about like this stuff. I don't know how to do any of this. Every time, call IT, I'm rolling in this.

So you should do that every minute 37. did you see where the time was it was at minute 37 Mickey Mickey makes fun of me that she says it happened I'm always like minute 30 or you're making fun of John I'm making fun of it minute 37 and you're like and he's like and then you're like

I can hear you now and he's like okay and I was just telling her I was just telling her that we do have a bunch of great new equipment too that we're going to try to set up but we don't want to have to set up We're having our time. I don't think you should be. We need IT.

We need IT. Yeah, you do. We are good at a lot of things, guys, John and I, but not tech. Okay. What is that company? They're like the nerd guys or whatever. I don't know. We do need some nerd guys.

Nerd guys to the rescue. The good guys. I don't know. Anyway. Yeah. Well, it's good to laugh during this time. It's good. And you know, I love sitting behind Vicki. I can't sit next to you because I'm considered media. So I just sit behind her. And it's so good because it is so heavy. But I'm so grateful to have someone I can laugh with during this to you. You have been so wonderful understanding the need for laughter sometimes when it, you know, portals are funny. So portals. It's like you could literally let something like this kill you. You could just roll up and, you know, and you just can't do that. You just have to keep, you know, keep the memories alive and you just have to get through it

and just know that sometimes, like I said, before, sometimes we laugh until we cry. Sometimes we cry until we laugh. And we do all of that. we steal our people and the fact that we lost somebody that we loved deeply and um you know who would not have that in their life even to lose it so yeah thank you thank you thank you everyone gems for being here this is such an incredible community and it's been such an incredible community so many of the surviving victims and i just john and i are truly are touched and honored there's a reason we call you our hidden gems we can't believe what has been such an incredible community.

It's come out of this community with all of you. So thank you. And thank you and Vicki for trusting us. For those of you that are following the trial, just know that I will be there. It starts earlier tomorrow. They warned everyone in the courtroom, Vicki, let me know that it starts earlier

and we have to be there earlier. So be ready for the live stream here at Hidden to Crime. I want you to know that last year, I was often on Twitter or X, whatever you call it. And this year, I'm more so now in the chat while the live stream is going. I want to be there with all of you. So that's where I am. So come join us in our daily live stream of the trial.

And then, of course, they'll be doing my lunch lives as well. And I am getting, oh, go ahead. What, Vicki? Sorry. They're all over the place. You're running around. And I'm like, aren't you going to eat anything? She's like, no, I got to go do my life.

I'm like, oh, gosh, girl, you just never take a beat. You need to take a beat once in a while. Your gyms want you to take a beat once in a while. Well, I did today. I did today for certain. For certain I did. And that was why I was like, I need rest for when we get this trial going,

which could possibly be tomorrow. So I... 30 so that they catch you, you're ramping up. Because if they start at 8.30 by 9 o'clock, they could be, doing their prant of, you know, the sorting out. I don't even know how many they have, by the way.

But they have to end. They need 18 total, 18 total in the end. And so they'll both strike. They'll both strike people they don't want. So prior will strike people that he doesn't want the state to have and the state will strike people. Jurors is what I mean that they don't want prior to have. And then whoever's left will be on the juror.

I think they just literally pull numbers out of a hat, if I'm not mistaken. And the first 12 are the jury, and then they have the six alternates. That happens, but not until the end. So all of the 18 jurors believe that they could be a possible deliberating juror. Yeah. They do that on purpose, too, so that they all understand the serious nature, because if one thinks they're an alternate, they might not be as involved. So all 18 are years until the very end. And then it is drawn out of the hat.

Okay. So that makes sense because I was like, why are these people sitting up there? But I was like so involved with this other stuff that I wasn't even paying attention. I was just like, okay, the alternates. But I didn't know that they were actually, they're all jurors until the very end.

I just want to say, again, you know, thank everybody. I can't see the comments in the chat when I'm on here. But, you know, again, I just know that we just, you know, can feel your prayers and we feel the positive energy from people. And just like hang in there with us because I know that people that are invested in this, it means something to them. And because it means something to them, it means something to me. And, you know, we just, you know, we want you to love Tammy. That's it. She was lovable.

She was. And so are you. So thank you for sharing her with us. All right. We'll see you, Vicki. Thank you so much for doing this with ours. Okay. Love you. Bye. Love you. Bye-bye. Hello, Hidden Jems. It's Lauren with Hidden a True Crime podcast. As a TV reporter, I learned the art of visual storytelling. So if you're like me, you enjoy listening, but also viewing. You can, can actually head to our YouTube channel, Hidden True Crime, to watch these interviews. Hit the subscribe button for surprise lives and breaking news. And for exclusive content, things Dr. John and I only dare say behind a paywall,

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