Hidden True Crime - CHAD DAYBELL TRIAL: Tammy Daybell's Cousin Julie Brooks Breaks her silence

Episode Date: May 29, 2024

Julie Brooks is not only Tammy Daybell's cousin, but she was also close to Tylee, JJ, and Charles. She worked with Lori Vallow in church. She is attending the Chad Daybell trial and stopped by Lauren's Idaho studio to talk more about the victims and how the crimes have impacted her family. Join Hidden True Crime as we follow Chad Daybell's trial from beginning to end. Host Lauren Matthias is in the courtroom daily, doing lunch lives on YouTube and summarizing each day and week right here on Hidden: A True Crime Podcast. Lauren Matthias was a television reporter for a decade and has followed the Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell case since 2019. She and her husband, Dr. John Matthias, a criminal psychologist, started Hidden True Crime in 2020 with their Season, 'Beyond the Veil,' a psychological deep dive into the doomsday murders and prophet. What started as a simple conversation at their dinner table became a captivating podcast. Join the dynamic duo of Dr. John Matthias, a forensic psychologist, and Lauren Matthias, an investigative journalist, as they delve into the psychological facets of unthinkable crimes every week. Their unique perspectives and in-depth analysis offer a fresh take on true crime storytelling. Thank you for your support through sponsorships, subscribing, listening, and becoming a Patreon member at Patreon.com/HiddenTrueCrime Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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We got home. We got settled. I've got a cop drop. Just a pre-forgiveness before. And I know, Julie, that you've been waiting a very, very long time to do an interview, perhaps never wanting to do an interview. Many people have asked. Yeah, a lot of people have asked. I think just been cautious to wait until I felt like it was appropriate just with the trial and everything. I definitely would never want to say something that could affect that in any way. And so that and then it's a little nerve-wracking kind of putting yourself out there. And so I think just nerves too, just trying to figure out the right time and right person to get with. As Kay Woodcock said after court today, we let Kay know, Julie's going to do an interview

with me and Kay herself said she is the only person. Julie is the only person that knows every victim and the perpetrators and the defendants in this case and his family. So why don't you share again how you're related to Tammy and how you know. everyone connected to this terrible case. Okay. Tammy is my cousin. She married Chad and obviously most people know that her mom and my mom are sisters. And the way I live in Arizona and when the Vallow's moved back from Hawaii, they moved

into our ward, which is just the congregation, if you're not familiar with that, just like the location where we were at, they moved there. And so my oldest daughter, Noel, was good friends with Tiley. And I worked with Lori in the primary, which is working with kids and singing time and lessons that way. So JJ was in there with us as well. And then my husband was friends with Charles. And so, yeah, they were in.

They attended our church, our ward for about just over a year, I think. And so I had a, I worked with her specifically, Lori, for a year. And so yeah, it's a crazy connection. I, when I realized how I knew all the parties, it was very mind-blowing. Yeah. we can only imagine and disturbing and and also I want everyone to know that um you also grew up in springville so you grew up knowing all the daybells so yeah I lived in springville so I kind of moved around a lot um growing up so but a big part of my childhood was in springville and where I also was in

the same ward congregation with the daybell family so while Chad was quite a bit older I knew well Matt and his younger brother, Brad, went to school with Brad and knew his parents and knew them well. And so yeah, super close with Matt, was friends with Brad. And so yeah, I knew them well. I mean, and then of course this is your cousin. Yeah, yeah. So I was just actually looking at pictures. pictures just of when they got sealed in the temple and we were all there. Tammy and Chad.

Yeah. And, you know, remember their courtship. I remember them dating. Yeah, we, I wasn't in the temple, but we were outside and we got a family picture outside and just lots of family gatherings, lots of at the time when I know a lot of people have heard about Grandma Cooper. That's my mom's mom. And Grandma Lucille, yeah, when she was living, we got together quite often and as a whole family and during the holidays and obviously during weddings and special occasions. And so, yeah, I mean, they were married for a very long time. And so especially at the beginning when I was still living in Utah, we got together quite often. And then as people had, we grew up, had families and other life events, you know, you kind of just spread out and move different places. So those gatherings became less over time.

But we definitely still tried to, like if we were all in Utah or somewhere where everyone was, like my cousin Patty, who some people have met, she got married in California. So like as many people, you know, Tammy was there for that. and there's many people that could come, came to that. So you're a close-knit family. Yeah, like we tried to, over the years, still try through Facebook and just still try to communicate and keep up on each other's lives and families and weddings and important events and stuff. Yeah, and Patty is a cousin who testified at trial. She had to testify.

She did a great job. Her and her daughter both had to testify. Hannah's story with the stairs. The stairs. Yeah, that kind of blew up. But it was, they were very nervous and obviously did not want to be put in that position. I don't think anyone could imagine having to do that. But yeah, they were super brave.

And I thought they did a great job. So the world didn't know about the missing children until December 2019. Can you, can you share your story learning about this? Yeah. Like, what was the first suspicious thing? And then as you learned, you showed me some of the text. Yeah, I think by nature, I'm a little bit of a suspicious person. I may be watching too many date lines.

I'm not sure. But when I, so I got the call from my brother about Tammy's passing. And it was that day. And I can just remember feeling shocked. And I think like people have heard her friends testify. None of us were aware that she was, you know, sick. And, you know, we, she was healthy. She had a great family.

She, you know, her career and she was super involved. And we thought all was well. So when my brother called and told me that she had passed away, I was in shock. I really was. And I obviously was like, what happened? Do you know? and he said, well, Chad, I guess, said that she aspirated and she threw up and then he found her in the morning and she had passed away. And I was just like immediately that didn't really set well with me.

But then I said, you know, are they going to do an autopsy? And he said, no, they're not going to do an autopsy. And I said, oh, my goodness. Like, why wouldn't, you know, especially in your family, just trying to figure out like, could have something to do familiar or familiar wise. Like is it genetic or is it something? Could her children be affected? Yeah.

Could anyone in her family be affected? So it just seemed like so weird to me that that wasn't even an option, even if you had to pay for it yourself. So that was a red flag for me, number one. And then number two was the whole, I was actually just reading back my text. threads about this, but just the whole having the funeral just in a couple of days later. And I was living in Arizona. My mom was living in Arizona.

She was sick and not feeling well at the time. And we were just like, is there any way that they can hold off because we really want to be there? Like, this is important to us. It's your cousin. Yeah. It's like a cousin. Like we love and care about her.

And obviously this is devastating for all of us. And so we could have. make it work out. I mean, I have a husband that travels and I had kids in school and stuff. And so I was just so sad that I wasn't able to make that. My mom also was not able to go. And so that felt really devastating for us. And I just was like, what was the rush, honestly? So I couldn't, that was also another red flag. And I thought, oh, man, maybe I'm reading into this. Maybe I'm not seeing things right. But there was just always this gut feeling I had that It just didn't, it just didn't feel right.

It didn't feel like the normal process of when somebody passes away. Something was off. And then immediately I had seen Chad's post that was, I think, either the day that she passed away or the day after on Facebook. And it was just like basically a eulogy of her life. And it was so off-putting, to be honest. Because it lacked emotion. Yeah, it just was like who is in a right frame of mind to be able to write that out so quickly. It just like, aren't you still processing?

Aren't you still? And so yeah, so that was pretty devastating. So time goes on. And my aunt, my other aunt, Patty's mom, we had been connecting and just talking and with my mom. And just kind of like, this is so crazy, you know. But then, and I wasn't in Utah. So like anything that would happen, it would kind of get relayed to me. Right.

You were, you're, yeah. Yeah, it wasn't like there. Yeah. So. Family text threads or whatever. Yeah. So then my aunt texts me and she's like, I mean, the short of it is that she said that, um, basically this Lori woman, you know, he's kind of bragging about her to the family.

And I was like, oh my gosh, like he's already dating somebody. And then it was like a couple days later, like, I guess he married her. And and then that kind of just solidified my suspicions a little bit. I wasn't wrong. Yeah, no. I just felt like, whoa, that like that. He did something. Yeah, he did something.

Your suspicion was that he did. Yeah. That he killed her. Yeah. My suspicion for sure was that he drugged her or, you know, I figured that as much. So then, yeah, so then my aunt's texting me and I'm just like, oh my gosh. And then I get a text from her later that day and she says, or like within a day or two. And she says, well, I guess this lady, Lori is from Hawaii or her husband.

Like the story was that we heard her husband had passed away in Hawaii. And so we were like, okay. Like I'm like on the internet trying to be, you know, like a detective. trying to figure out like if I can see anything on Facebook or if I can, you know, get any information because once I found out he was married, it just like set me off. So then my aunt then then gives me the details that I guess I guess they were living in Chandler or Gilbert, Arizona and her husband was shot. And I was like, that is so weird.

I'm like, I do remember that. But like what? And so I Google it. and I realized that my mom owned a flower shop at the time, and she was working. And I remember texting her, calling her and saying, oh my gosh,

be careful because somebody was shot in the neighborhood across the street from your shop. Oh my gosh. So you didn't know that was Charles? I didn't know that was Charles. So you didn't even know that was Charles. No. No,

I just, like if somebody gets shot and killed, it's just big news, like in a small town. You don't assume you know them. I was like, oh my goodness. So then when I Googled it,

then I realized and like the headline was like Valo like I was and I texted back and I said oh I'm a little bit freaking out right now because I I think I might I know some Valos like that's not a very common name either and then I read the article and it said Charles Valo and I said I started having a major panic attack which I had never really experienced before but like my heart just sank once I realized and I I was like calling to my husband. I was like, I was like, gosh, did you have any idea that Charles was shot? And he was like, no.

I'd never heard that because at that time, they had moved out and they were in a different location. And so we didn't keep in contact with them after that. I was like, oh my gosh. And it's just like one of those things where like you have all these thoughts at once and you're just kind of like trying to figure out how to make sense of it. And then I ended up asking a few friends that went to church with us. Like, did you guys have any idea? Did you hear about Charles Vallow getting shot?

And one of them was like, oh, yeah, I remember hearing about that. Like, that was crazy. Like, we don't know what happened. So immediately after I realized that and I had a minute to like freak out about that, I was like asking my daughter, I'm like, have you heard from Tiley at all? Because your daughter is friends with Tiley? My daughter was friends with Tiley. And going back a little bit, Tiley, well, so yeah, so Tiley and my oldest were good friends.

And Tiley had a lot of good friends. She had like different groups, you know, she had like some church friends. and then she had friends just from school. And like when she moved out, she had other church friends. And so like she had a lot of different groups of friends. But they all were like connected also. So yeah, so I mess. I was like asking my daughter, I said, have you heard from Tiley?

And I started messaging girls from the church. And I was like, have you guys heard from Tiley at all? Like has has anything, have you communicated at all? And they were just like, no, we haven't heard anything. So yeah, so like it all started just kind of like playing out over the next little bit. And like right, I was feeling really not unsure about the kids right before I was questioning. I was questioning. I was like, you know, I was trying, I was texting Tiley.

I was, you know, people were trying to reach out. and nobody could get a hold of her. And then like a couple weeks later is when I found out about K, you know, requesting that welfare. Do you remember how you found out about K requesting it? I think it was just like I had heard like it was on the news. All of a sudden it was like, these are missing kids. And I was just like, I can't believe this. And then so Tiley had gone to our girls.

So she had moved out of our ward congregation, but she was still friends with everybody. And so it was in June before she was murdered that she had gone to like girls camp with our girls. And I was actually kind of surprised that her mom let her go. And I can share a little bit about that because I knew that they were, had talked about moving or, you know, like there was like a transition going on but she was like I don't want to I would rather go with this ward and we were like yeah like it's awesome you should totally come I didn't end up going but like my daughter did and yeah she had other leaders obviously that that went and so she went and came back and then all that happened with Charles and and then there was a period of time where she spent time with

like girls in our ward like where she spent the night because there there was was stuff that was going on in their family. Okay. So she'd like spend the night with friends. Yeah. She would spend the night with friends. And I do think, and this is just my, like, opinion about the situation. But your opinions are important.

Your thoughts. So, so Lori obviously created a divide in Tiley's in any relationship with a man for Tiley. Triangulation. Yeah. And she just, she just kind of butt heads. with Charles. And Charles was a wonderful man. He was so nice, so caring. And I think he would have had a wonderful relationship with her had that been nurtured and allowed. But Lori wanted Tiley to trust Lori. And Tiley was loyal. I mean, she was not only a loyal friend, she was a loyal daughter.

and she was a loyal sister. And I think that's partly why I just felt heartbroken, just the idea that she trusted her mom so much. And I know that they didn't always get along either. And there were times that I think she was opinionated. I mean, Tiley just had like a fun personality, but she was a little bit sassy. She wasn't the type to just roll over and not share her opinion.

Yeah. But she just was a teenager and I never saw her as rude. I never saw her as like argumentative or combative. But she was opinionated and she let her opinion be known about Charles because Lori didn't want her to like him. And so she didn't. And I'm sure she was the same way about Chad. And not necessarily because of something her mom said, but because you can feel the evil coming from him. And she wasn't dumb.

And I think that's partly why she felt so protective of JJ. And that's who she was. And she. Strong-willed. She was strong-willed. And she was fun, though. She was so fun and so funny and my daughter. So last week when I or like over the weekend when I was talking to my daughter, I was, you know, I don't think any of those girls are really ready to talk much.

I kind of mentioned that before. I think there some of them don't even know fully what happened. And some of them are still trying to process and it's like it's a hard thing to face, I think. Of course. And I think a lot of people saw her friend Ashland, who was a very good friend of Tiley, just in that split moment, she was able to testify. And I was talking to my daughter, Noelle, and I was like, what can I share about her? And she said, you know, she goes, what Ashland said was true.

Like, she goes, I always could talk to her about boys, about funny stuff. She goes, I just remember being in church all the time. You know, you're supposed to be listening. And she said, we would always send each other like funny memes or like just trying to make each other laugh. And she's like, we would always get in trouble. And then we would just look at each other and laugh. And like everything with there's like so many little inside jokes.

Like she opens up her Snapchat and she's just like reading these messages. Sorry. It's okay. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the Internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers, spammers, even stalkers. It's why you get endless robocalls and why ads seem to follow you everywhere.

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A few important disclosures at acorns.com slash hidden true crime. It's been a lot for everyone to process. She's just not just friends. She's just reading these messages of just funny jokes and just her personality and sense of humor. And she's just like, I can't believe that she's gone, you know. She goes, I remember one time she had put on her Snapchat story. She's like, message me if you need a pick me up or something like that. She goes, I remember messaging her being like, I need one, you know.

And she's like, she messaged me back. And she was like, she's like, Noel, you're the best. You're so sweet. You're so beautiful. You've got this. Like it was, I think it was like about finals or something like that. She said, you've got this. You're so smart.

And you're just the best person. And I just love you so much. And it was like this huge long, you know, sweet message. And I can only imagine there was more than just Noel who was messaging her. And it was just such a, like, that's who she is. Like she's not somebody who was grouchy or, you know, she was rude or trying to argue or fight. like she was so sweet and she was such a good listener and such a good friend and like I said like she just she just was loyal like she was protective of her friends and she was protective of her brother

and like as sad as it is she was protective of the relationship with her mom too and so that that just brings a whole new level of just the heartbreak of all this So I feel like there was one other thing I was going to share about her. And if you need a reminder, we can keep going. Yeah, let's keep going. And I'll remember. Thank you for sharing about Tiley. I want to share that Julie's daughter was one of the one that wrote something for the memorial.

That was. Yeah. Yeah, she kept it kind of short. She said, oh, I wish I would have maybe written more. But I think she just was trying to just stress, like, what a good person, Tiley was, and just like how sweet she really is and how fun she really was. And like, I know her other friend, Emma, also shared about that. And it was, I think she was talking about how JJ was in, because a lot of her did have to do with JJ.

And so it was sweet. Like, I think she had shared that he was in a primary program and just how Tiley had kind of moved. up, you know, to watch him and, and just cheer him on and, like, try to make him smile. And she just did love him so much. And it was a parent in her daily interaction with him. And even Noel just was saying it was just so sweet. Like, she would go over there and she would talk about how funny the dog was. And she's like, I know it was a service dog, but we would always laugh because he would

sometimes be inappropriate and like yeah try to like hump our legs and then tylee would just die laughing instead of trying to get him to stop and she's like we would we would just laugh about funny stuff like that and so and so she just was like it was so just sweet how she would care for jj and like mess with him and play with him and also just would spend time like loving on him and and he loved her so much too and he could feel her love her love for him. And so it, you know, reminiscing and thinking about all those things has been good because she isn't how she was found. She is so much more than that. And they both are and Tammy as well. They lived a life that was full and happy and important. And I just hope that like as time goes on,

that we can remember those things about them and not how horrific their situation was in the end. You mentioned discovering JJ and Tiley were missing two children you loved. Did you jump to worst fears then? You said you're always suspicious. What did you think or what were your? I did because I think that, again, like I'm more of us. I ask questions. Maybe you're a realist too.

And I remember having a conversation. I thought the worst as well. Yeah. Well, I thought at first when I found out about Tammy, this was the day I was at church the next day and I pulled two friends of mine into the kitchen area and I said, okay, I'm going to give you this scenario and I want you to tell me if I'm overreacting. And so I shared the details of what I had found out when Tammy had passed away. And they both said, no, absolutely.

not that is suspicious. So I felt a little bit like, okay, validated that I wasn't just necessarily jumping into conclusions, but like it's okay to ask questions. And it's okay to like further find out, like find out details of why you feel this way. And so yeah, so I did kind of at first feel like maybe I'm reading into this, but then I realized, No, I'm not. No, you're not. Yeah. And also, when it came to, like, when they, with the kids,

so I connected with my daughter quite a bit, and I was asking her, like, there were actually times before, like, so we met Tiley in 2016. Noel became friends with her in 2016. So they were in high school together. They had a couple of classes together. And I remember picking up Noel from school. And I was like, I don't know how we've got on the topic, but she would talk about how Tiley was missing school a lot and how I said, why? What's wrong with her?

And she was like, she's in the hospital again. I'm like, why? Like, that's so random. Like, for a girl her age, why is she in the hospital? And she said she has so many stomach problems. And I was like, like, there was a little part of me that was like, that doesn't make sense. either. And I think too, and I know I told you this, that I did a report on Munchausen by proxy. And so I was like, I wonder, like, there was a part, like, you kind of like think it and then it goes away.

Right. So I was like, that's so sad, though. She's missing school. She's missing, like, you know, so much. And she had eventually had to, like, check out of school because she was gone so much. And so, so, you know, hindsight, I'm thinking, hindsight, I'm thinking like that makes, I definitely think something was going on there. My, just my opinion, obviously, speculating on that. But I feel like I'm like it's one of those things where like you kind of have to try to connect the dots with what you know.

And so that was one thing that I was like, okay, that's a little bit weird. And then I remember Noel telling me, I had asked her, because I rented out for Noel's 16th birthday, I rented out a skating rink for her party. So fun. And she was like, I'm nervous people aren't going to come, you know, and so we're like going through our list. And I remember asking her, like, what about Tiley is she going to come? and she was like yeah I think so she's like but when I asked her she said I don't know I think

I'm going to be able to come but I don't know because my mom said I'm sick wow and so at the time again I was like her mom said she's sick that's weird like why what does that mean and again you kind of just feel it and then you're just like okay and she ended up coming and it was great and she was fine, you know. But again, hindsight is 20-20 and you think, okay, like something might have been going on deeper there. And yeah, so there was a lot of thoughts afterwards. Like, I definitely did not, like when I saw people talking like, the kids are probably fine. I mean, I with everyone else was hoping. Sure. But I felt like this is not, you know, this is not looking good because I thought, Lori, I'm figuring Lori is a little too selfish to allow herself to go to jail versus

produce the kids. Right. So I just was like, if, you know, once that happened and she didn't, the kids didn't, she didn't produce the kids, then I, I did not feel good about that either. So there was, I mean, this has been a lot of thought, a lot of talking, a lot of trying to figure, put the pieces together and what makes, what makes sense, what doesn't make sense. Nearly five years of this. Yeah, just why? Yeah, which you probably still haven't answered. Yeah, I just don't think it will ever make sense to me, because.

it's it's something that just it's crazy so it's like you can't make sense of crazy so yeah you know with your suspicions i have to ask you know you knew chad you're suspicious right away that maybe something happened with tanny what did you know about chad was there something that made you suspicious of him um so chad was there was something that made you suspicious of him um so chad was I wasn't super close with Chad because honestly, I'm not sure he was really super close with very many people. Okay. But I mean, I was quite a bit younger, but I just remember as I grew up and, you know, kind of I got married and started having my own family. But I just remember he's always kind of talked about having visions and that.

And he would gift us his books and stuff like that to read. here's my book yeah which he would like sign him and then gift him to us and i mean i i never thought he would murder you know i like i thought he was a weird guy and i never believed any of his visions when he would say oh grandma cooper you know this and that like i i didn't i never believed it i never thought that was real i just figured he he wanted people to see him that way. I mean, it's like, okay, whatever. Like, I just kind of blew stuff like that off.

But I know, you know, bothered my mom a little just because, like, he's talking. It's like, if Grandma Cooper was going to, you know, appear to anyone, it probably wouldn't be Chad. Right. So. Sorry, Chad. And he, he, he, I felt like it was manipulative, manipulative for him to say things about that because I think he knew that it would, as far as like Tammy, you know, I don't, I don't think like

she bought into everything. I mean, that's just my personal opinion. But I do think she respected like when he, and at the beginning, I also think that it was, you know, not as in depth. I think that grew with time. But his beliefs. His beliefs. Yeah.

Yeah. But I think she respected him and she loved him. and she had a family with him. And so, you know, she kind of was like, okay, you know, whatever. Well, as you, I mean, and if you don't want to share this, it's okay, but when we talked before this interview, you kind of shared that you think that maybe they weren't even that close, but they had a family together and.

Yeah, I mean, like I wonder if I just, I feel like maybe they grew apart. Yes. that she kind of ended up creating a life outside of her marriage that brought her happiness and closeness to other people and right i i do feel like based on chad's looks on his face when he sees her friends testify it makes me think that he didn't realize how loved she was right makes them angry i feel like yeah yeah and i think he thought moving her to idaho she wouldn't be by family and people she grew up with who knew her. And so I think he thought

that he'd be able to isolate her and that he could manipulate her further. And she created a life for herself. She created a family at school and she, people who loved her and she did things that she enjoyed and, you know, found joy and other things. And I, I do. do I do think that he maybe had disconnected from her a long time ago. Yeah, I suspect that too. Yeah. And she was busy being the breadwinner and working hard and raising children. And that's what she loved.

Would you say that's kind of like where she probably focused her life? I mean, she's always been a teacher. She's always loved it. She's always loved. Like, and it's interesting when people describe her, especially if they like, say, She's an introvert. Like, obviously she's, she maybe isn't the type of person to, you know, go tell everyone, everything all at once.

But she was somebody who had friends and she loved being a teacher. I know a lot of people saw that video that was posted, which that video was actually from like nine-ish years ago. It's Tammy having fun at work in Springville. Yeah, it's in Springville. And, yeah, so like she was up for having fun and, and doing. fun things and she always had lots of friends and she's always been involved in high school she was involved you know she did a lot of clubs and she's always been organized she's always been a good worker and she's always you know had a lot of friends and always tried to find joy you know in

whatever situation she's she's been in at least that's what i remember you know when she was in high school i was like this punky teenager that was just looking up to her and my cousin patty and And I would, you know, just want to be like with, like, do whatever I could, you know, be with them or be like them. And like everything that they were doing was like so fun. They were dating and like, you know, all the fun things. And I'm just like this goofy teenager that are even younger, like just looking up to them. So my observation always was that like she always was just busy and fun and did a lot of fun things. And then once we got, like I got married and had kids, like we could relate on another level because we're doing the same things, you know.

And so there was there was that kind of connection as we got older. But like I said, those those interactions were few and far between because we lived in different states and like, you know, it's hard to get together. But we tried to when we could. I love that. You know, we've had so many laughing fits with each other. with your mother and you and me and we we find this joy among the darkness that you know we've been here sitting in a child every day and i remember your mom sharing uh about how much you would laugh with tammie and that tells me a lot about her because i don't think chad has a

sense of humor i mean have you ever seen correct so you can confirm that i can confirm that not that i experienced yeah and so to know that tammy did have this sense of humor and that She would giggle with all of you and laugh. Oh, yeah. That's all you need to know. Yes. To know who Tammy is. Yeah.

How different she was. Yeah. I just remember one time when I was like kind of little, it was at my house. And we did like this kind of like a talent show. And I just remember her and my cousin Patty were like singing a song together. And it was just hilarious. And they were giggling and having so much fun. And we were all laughing.

and it was so funny. And that she was like that. I don't know how much she was like that with Chad because like you said, he wasn't somebody that found her funny or like amusing. But she was. Like she totally had such a funny sense of humor and was not afraid to be silly.

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. Sorry about my squeaky chair every time I move. Thank you for helping. let's get to know her. You mentioned she was always a teacher. Tell us about serving with Lori in primary,

because that's something that a lot of people are shocked to learn that not only was Lori, this mother, she worked in the church in the primary. And she also did that in Hawaii, too. They'd always call her to the primary that needs to work with the children and that children would love her.

But tell me about working with her. Yeah. So there's a couple of things that came to mind when I was thinking about, Lori. I actually really liked Lori. She was a very likable person. I think at the time when I met her, she was just starting to read Chad's books. And I do know that Charles was talking to people about him saying she's changing. Like she's obsessed with the second coming. And obviously, I don't think people realized the degree that that was happening. But yeah, so I think it was like just starting. But she was great with the kids and she was like fun and energetic. And she was at the time,

you know, super interactive. And and we liked her. We did. We liked her. But there were two things. I know I've talked about this before, but there were two times when I remember this specifically. And this was before I found anything. It's just like my suspicious nature, I guess. Okay. But that's a good thing. I would say that that's actually good for you to be suspicious. We call that pot stirring or just reality.

Yeah. Looking at the evidence. Yeah. Yeah. But I just remember one time after church, you know, J.J. Charles would pick J.J. up from his class.

And J.J. was a lot of, he had a lot of energy. I mean, he always had his backpack. He always had his things. and he kind of was just all over the place. So Charles, I remember this happened two times. Charles walked in with JJ and we were just cleaning up and whatnot. Like church was over and Lori was talking to somebody and Charles was kind of waiting right there. And he was trying to get her attention because I think he needed help with something for JJ.

And she looked at him and just like completely ignored him and blew him off. Oh, wow. And I was just standing there and I was like, oh my gosh, I look at Charles. I'm kind of trying to act cool because I found it embarrassed. Like I'm sure he was embarrassed. You know, by that. And you were probably secondhand embarrassed for it. Yeah.

And I was like, oh my gosh, that's so awkward. And I look at him and he kind of smiles and kind of just was like. And then she just didn't talk to him, didn't acknowledge him, nothing. And he was just looking for help with. And he was just, yeah, like he was just trying to get her attention, like, whether it was to say I'm going to go to the car. or whatever. Just like, let's go. And so that happened two times where I actually notice and I was like, oh, that's really

awkward. But I now it makes sense that there was definitely a disconnect happening there as well. Yeah, definite friction. And also another thing that I'm realizing too about Lori, I was, I was like, you know, I really liked her. I wanted to keep in touch with her when she. left which i'm obviously i'm so grateful in the end that didn't work out um but i i realized she didn't really connect with people in our ward she connected with the young girls like there were

several of tyle's friends that were close with her okay that have been very traumatized and devastated in a different way because they bought into Lori's teachings. Oh, wow. And I think that when they found out about the kids, they were like, there's absolutely no way she would ever harm her kids. Like, they were, when they found out that the kids had been murdered, I think it broke them. So there are still, like, so she connected with the girls that spent time at her home with Tiley. and I think she...

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a breach or on the dark web. But ORA goes beyond data protection. With one app, you get a VPN, antivirus, password manager, spam call protection, dark web monitoring, and even up to $5 million in identity theft insurance, all backed by 24-7 U.S.-based fraud support. Other companies might sell just credit monitoring, or just a VPN. ORA gives you all of it, together, at the same price competitors charge for just one service. Start your free trial today at ORA.com slash remove. Protect yourself now at ORA.com. com slash remove. I was trying to manipulate those girls.

And so when you say her teachings, are we talking light and dark? Are we talking buried in a past life? Well, I know she was trying to give blessings at that point. Okay. And she was giving Tiley blessings, like when Tiley would be like sick or whatever, she was trying to give Tiley blessings.

But Tiley actually was not buying into that. She was like saying like, she didn't buy into it. And Tiley liked church. She liked going to church. Yeah. But she wasn't buying into these extremes. I know.

I don't think she was buying into the extremes at all. Right. I don't think she was either. No. Yeah, no. But her mom was trying to, it's very reminiscent of Chad. I do think that her mom was trying to start manipulating that,

you know, those in, with religion and twist it and make them think different things. And Tiley just was not one. I mean, like I said, she trusted her mom, but I do think there was conflicting feelings there. So I realized, like, Lori really didn't have friends, women that she connected with. And she, like, I can't think of one person that she ever hung out with the whole time she was there.

And I do, she moved into a ward with some of our best friends. And that's when she started kind of being more vocal. and people were like, she's weird. Okay. But one thing that is actually so crazy that when I think back is like, here we are. We were in primary and every week, I mean, probably almost every week, we would be using Tammy's book, Tiny Talks to use for our primary. Wow. Meanwhile, Lori is reading Chad's books and starting to communicate with him.

And like, wow. Go ahead. And no, I just, I don't, I don't know if Chad had any idea. Like, I don't know. I know he knew that we lived in Arizona, but I'm sure that he had no idea that there was that connection. Did your primary use it because Lori recommended it? No. I don't, I'm not even, like, they just had it. And I think it was just always a source that like if somebody didn't have something prepared,

like a kid didn't have something prepared, we would always. just pull that out. And it was the cutest book and we loved it. But I mean, who knew? Wow. Yeah. Who knew? And you were probably very proud to be her cousin. Would you say that? And like, that's my cousin's book. I actually didn't realize it at first. And then I was like, oh my gosh, this is Tammy's book. And yeah, like, I'm like, that's my cousin's book. That's so crazy. Yeah. So yeah, I mean, it was, it's kind of cool, you know. It was a cute little book. And I think people still use it.

I don't know if it's accessible still now, but yeah. When you, and if you don't want to go here, it's okay, because I know there's a lot to process. But when you, where were you when you learned of the children's fate that June day? Oh, June 2020. That was a hard day, actually. I mean, I think we were all on, I think I was actually several places because I think I was like talking to my mom. I was trying to find a well. I was trying to, you know, like I remember like sitting on pins and needles like is waiting for them to confirm whether or not that was human remains and the identity.

and I think I was actually just at home when I found out that it was them. And still we didn't know like tons of details. Like obviously we know now. But I just remember having to tell my daughter and just completely breaking down and just really not knowing what to say or how to say that. And it just felt so devastating to finally know the reality of what had happened to them. Yeah, right. This trial's been really hard.

There's been a lot of details. The Woodcock's have both said it was even harder than they anticipated. I was sitting next to you during some really, really difficult testimony of Tiley. And in my opinion, and this is. me, not you, but in my opinion, I think some of the worst parts of this crime have to do with highly and not to diminish anything else, but I worry. I worry. Have you? Yeah. Yeah, so it, I'm sorry. I get so emotional thinking about it, but yeah, I think just I was there last year and saw the pictures. And I think it has been just as bad to hear the detail of everything that we, I mean, especially last Thursday, I was not prepared for that.

And I think the hardest part for me, honestly, is knowing that it didn't happen after she died, all the horrific things that happened either. as she was dying as a form of killing her or shortly after. And to get to the point she was is just, it's just so awful to think about. And I think for me, I was telling Noel, I said, I think the hardest thing for me is that I'm sitting here in June of 2020, celebrating my daughter's graduation while Tiley is getting dug up from my ground.

It just like it killed me that that was her, you know, her ending. It's just, it's so tragic. And so, yeah, it's just been so hard to think about and to hear those details and I'm just, I'm so grateful for law enforcement and for their dedication to knowing their testimony and, like, being able to recount it. It's made such a huge difference in the jury understanding the gravity of what happened. And I'm just, as hard as it is to hear, it's just, I know it's necessary. but it's just tragic and hard. It's been hard.

Yeah. Yeah. Has it been hard knowing Chad? So you don't just know the victim, do you also know the people responsible? Has it been hard to know Lori and her Chad? Yeah, like it's interesting because I just like when I see Chad, I just, I feel, I just feel rage.

Like, like, I'm mad. I'm mad at, at what has transpired and in the way that, the, the planning that took. And I'm, I look at Lori and I, you know, last year when I was here, it was just like, I felt so disgusted because I'm like, your daughter loved you so much. like she would have done anything for her mom. She didn't move to Rexpert. She moved her expert. She didn't really want to go. And she had lots of friends saying, you don't have to go.

You can stay here. You can live with us. Like you can graduate and like just hang out. And I think she knew what was, I think she was scared of what could happen. And I also think she knew. what really happened with Charles. And I think it was not a great situation for her in the end. And so, yeah, like, it's, I think about the rage I feel towards both of them

because I'm, and the greed that I see because I'm like, you could have just gotten divorced and been together and actually lived life together if that's what you really wanted. but you wanted the money. And it's like it just is, it's just heartbreaking. And so, yeah, like sitting in the courtroom watching his hurt as she giggled and she flirted with her attorneys, which I'm sure was annoying to them as well. And so, you know, when Chad gets a smirk on his face or like it, it pisses me off.

Yeah. Rage is a great adjective. Yeah. Yeah. You do feel rage. I mean, I have intrusive thoughts where I think, what if I just yelled something or like just did something, you know? And you think, what could I get away with, you know? Obviously, I would never want to disrupt or hurt the trial.

But, you know, you have those thoughts of just, you know, as Lori's saying Tammy was her friend. Like, trust me, we were all sitting there and trying to hold. each other back because during her sentencing. Yeah, during her sentencing, it's you feel rage for somebody who has the audacity to say something like that. Yeah. I know

and what they did to your family. This is a forever part of your family. Your mother has played that to me once. Like this is like someone coming in and just doing something to your family that, you know, it's just like at the end of it it's like there's still pieces

that are broken. Yeah. For And, you know, for me, knowing both sides, it's like a double whammy. It's just the heartbreak is just so real on both sides. And, you know, I see my, I see my own daughter and the life that she's creating for herself. And all the great things she's going to be able to experience, like, she's married, and she's going to be able to have kids and, like, that joy and happiness. like highly deserved all that. And so like she wasn't family in that way. So it, you know, but I still, it still means something. And like I think about Tammy and I'm like,

she was just starting like the best phase of her life with her grandkids and she was close with her kids and she loved, she was happy. She was doing all the things that she, you know, apart from Chad, like she was creating an awesome life for herself. And like she was finally getting to experience like a fun stage of life. And maybe even getting rid of her mother's grasp a little bit. That would be the next step. Yeah. Yeah.

And so yeah, it's just it's that's, you know, we want justice and we'll all be so grateful once that, you know, happens. it's it doesn't bring anyone back at the end of this so that's just that's a hard reality that unfortunately is just part of you know the process for us so yeah there are a few questions yeah anybody has any questions are you okay to take yeah yeah yeah so if anybody has any questions use like the question mark emoji it helps us and I did start a couple I've been mostly listening oh yeah and I should have gotten you a tissue everyone's like give her a tissue oh no And I don't have one. You're okay.

I'm okay. Thank you. Thank you. Here are a few that I, that I pinned. Has Chad looked at you in court? And maybe we could ask us about Lori, too. Yeah. When I walked in, so Lori did look at me.

And I'm sure she was so confused about why I was there. But I'm sure she figured it out pretty quick. Yeah. She did look at me, but it was very brief and it was not often. Chad, the first time I arrived in court, Chad was like, he did look at me and looked away. He did look at me today and I just gave him a really dirty look, actually. And I didn't look away because I wanted him just to see that I, like, I'm not afraid of you. You're not intimidated.

I know you're, I know. You may think you're fooling people, but I know. that you're not. Yes. We know our family knows that you're full of it. Yes. So you're not fooling anybody. Right.

Yeah. And this is actually, oops, sorry. No, not that. Sorry, we're not going to ask those questions. But it's still going so fast, guys. There was one about, somebody said, if you could say something to chat right now,

what would it be and I tried to save it. I think that's what it would be for me. Like, I probably would use some swear words that I wouldn't say here. But I would say you're not fooling anybody. And I would tell him he's a coward. And I would also, I think, like, nobody believes in your crap. Nobody believes your, I think empathy for him is not a thing. He doesn't go.

He doesn't care that people care about Tammy. So I think the way to hit him is to basically discredit everything that he believes is important, which is that he's a prophet, that he's, you know, somebody important. And I would just be like, you are a nobody and nobody cares about you. Nobody ever wants to see you again. We all want you to rot in hell. So there you go. Thank you for sure.

That's what I would say. And that's what you would say. Right. He's not fooling any. one. Yeah, he's not fooling anybody. I agree. Do you think he feels like he is? Like when you see him? I, well, today when Detective or Lieutenant Hermesio came in, he got like the weirdest smirk on his face and he kind of has done that recently a couple times, which has been very weird.

But in those moments, I feel like he thinks he is because it's weird because he doesn't show a lot of emotion. And he's actually never really been like that as far as what I've, you know, noticed. Right. I do feel like there's moments where his body language shows that he feels confident and he feels like he has the upper hand. Uh-huh. I agree. So I am getting a trend with questions. Yeah. People are saying the kids test about Tammy. That's really all we want to know. And the other people are saying, how do you feel about Garth and Emma that testified? And there's also this question about, you know, maybe Garst inconsistencies. And then there's this question.

So the trend I've seen is I think people want to in general know. Let's just focus on one thing, how you felt about the testimony. Emma and Garth. And I know you need to be careful too. Don't say anything that you don't want to say. So the short answer is that I don't believe they were telling the truth. Okay. I believe that they are trying to protect their dad, whether it be, you know, I, yeah, so there's that.

I do think that they've been influenced by Chad, and I think. it's sort of not surprising since he's controlled them that way their whole lives. Like they they believe him, they trust him. Do I think they maybe know the truth and that's a hard thing to accept and to swallow? I mean, I wouldn't surprise me either. Yeah. I think it's sad, you know, the way that Tammy was portrayed, you know, during that time. But that would have been, that was hard to listen to. Yeah, I think that was hard for us too.

But I, I also, it's hard because like I love them and I, I feel for them, you know. And I, I can't imagine what their life has been like the last four years. So my heart goes out to them. But it's definitely disappointing to, it was disappointing. it was disappointing to hear. Yes. And this might not be something you know, but going to that,

you had to chat. I always put down Tammy in front of the kids. Any opinion on that? I know you weren't around. The kids did not hate her. The kids were, loved her. Thank you.

The kids love her. I know they love her. I just think they, Tammy loved them. She, her whole life was her kids and she loved being a mom. and they didn't hate her.

I know that it sounds conflicting. This is just also my opinion. It's not like I've been around them a lot. They've been in Idaho for a lot of years. But I do know how Tammy felt about her kids. And I know that they love their mom. And I know it's hard to hear, but I also, it's one of those things where you can't really,

I don't know why they're, they've done what they've said what they've said. I just, I think they're grasping at straws because it's scary to lose two parents. I agree with you. I'll never forget a Facebook post that we saw cars

the day after his mother passed away just mourning her loss and he didn't stand that he was a mama's but I was very close. They were very close. So I don't doubt that ever. And it's heartbreaking the situation they're in now. Yeah.

And I don't want to comment too much just because I don't know enough of what they're going through. But I do know that they were all completely heartbroken when their mom passed away. So. Thank you for sharing that. Natalie is asking, Julie, how are you and your family doing and your other family members? Hope you will have some peace of mind knowing this is so hard from Akron, Ohio. Oh, that's so sweet. Thank you for asking.

I think because we're in the thick of it right now, it's just, it's hard. It's brought a lot to like the surface being in court, you know, from the time that Lori's trial ended. And this trial, we had like a little break and some normalcy and stuff. But I think just being in the thick of it. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers, spammers, even stalkers.

It's why you get endless robocalls and why ads seem to follow you everywhere. That's where ORA comes in. ORA actively removes your data from broker's sites and keeps it off. They also instantly alert you if your information shows up in a breach or on the dark web. But ORA goes beyond data protection. With one app, you get a VPN, antivirus, password manager, spam call protection, dark web monitoring, and even up to $5 million in identity theft insurance, all backed by 24-7 U.S.-based fraud support. Other companies might sell just credit monitoring, or just a VPN.

ORA gives you all of it, together, at the same price competitors charge for just one service. Start your free trial today atora.com slash remove. Protect yourself now atora.com slash remove. And it just kind of brings up all the feelings again. So we're okay. Like my husband's amazing. He's so supportive. And I'm so grateful for him.

And, you know, my kids have like, they're amazing and they're supportive of me being here, which I appreciate so much just because it's hard to be away. It's hard. I was just, I don't know if I was telling you or I was telling somebody else. Maybe it was Kay. I was talking to Kay today. I'm going to be missing a wedding this week. And it just makes me so angry a little bit that I'm missing things that are important to me because of something that Chad has done.

But it is important for me to be here. And we'll be okay. Like we're getting through it and, you know, we'll be okay. It's just, I think we're just in the thick of it. Like you feel the same way. It's like you're all consumed every day. So it's nice to have those breaks. with family and friends and find ways to laugh yeah I agree I agree and you guys

have been a joy for I think for the Woodcocks too I want to say you know being able to see Kay and Larry laugh with your mom and with you and oh yeah because there's so many tears I think it has been you guys have been a blessing I think to many during this really difficult time yeah I mean I will say the that has been a silver lining for sure is finding the people that have become family to us through this. And you know, you, K, Larry, there's like, I'm so grateful for that. I'm grateful because my mom, I haven't been out here very much. But my mom's been here almost every day. And so for her to be able to have people to relate to and

just decompress and laugh and spend time together while she's here, I'm just, I'm so grateful for that. So definitely out of tragedy came these relationships. And even some of the jurors from last year, like getting to know them and just, I don't know, you connect instantly. That's right. Yeah, learning, getting to know the jurors from last year, Lori's trial. Has been really eye-opening, I think, for us.

Good. Yeah, that's good. You've got someone so dedicated. They're so dedicated to justice. what service they did. They didn't want to do that by, you know, their civic duty. Yeah.

But they're now so dedicated to justice and understanding and caring about you. I've noticed that. Yeah. The jurors. Thank you if any of you jurors are listening. Yeah. And I'm just so grateful that like, and this also makes me so emotional too.

Just like I know, I can imagine how hard it was having to be away from their families and not be able to discuss any of this. At least we can talk and we can share our opinions and share things at the end of the day, but knowing that these jurors are not able to do that, like, I can't imagine how hard that is. And I just am so grateful for everyone that has taken on this responsibility and taken it seriously and realized, like,

how much that means to all of us, because without that, we would, you know, we don't know what would happen. Do you think that there was some control on Chad's part talking to Emma every day? Do you feel like he's doing that to kind of control the narrative? Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah. I mean, I think the, I mean, and this is again, my opinion.

It's not because I know anything, but I'm a hundred, I think 100% that he, if he still thinks his kids believe him, That's what's worth it to him to go to trial and to do all this to save face for his kids. There you go. Yeah. Yeah. You know, a lot of times too, one reason, if this is the case, it wouldn't be the first time. But there are times where men who are convicted of killing their spouse, a lot of times they won't plead guilty sometimes or take a plea deal because they just refuse.

to even remotely let the children. Accept responsibility. Yeah, accept responsibility in the least bit, which is so, you know, he's just refusing. Well, it just kind of shows you how delusional that thinking is because all the evidence, all every, the kids being found on his yard, like, it, it's weird to me that he thinks that through all that he's convinced people that he was not a part of that. just feel like his thinking is delusional and he's always been able to convince his kids. So he's sticking with it.

Yeah. Yeah. All right. And then one last. Oh, that's cute. Yeah. Yeah. Sending love to you, Noel.

Oh, you guys are so sweet. Thank you. Do you think this end of the trial will help start more healing? And I want to, I appreciate what he said about how there will always be. Yeah. There will always be, I want him to say a tear and I'm like, no, I'm not going to use a rip or a tear because of the veil. There will always be something, a wound. Yeah.

But, you know, and I think, which I actually appreciate you saying that we don't always have to find this perfect healing or this closure. Like, you know, but do you feel that being here or maybe the end of this could help with some healing or process? Oh, yeah. I for sure. I mean, to be able to see justice served will be such a huge blessing. And definitely like we're all waiting. We're all waiting for that. And, you know, obviously with time, you know, we'll be able to resume our lives. And but this will always be something that when we're together, you know, we talk about it or, you know, we talk about Tammy. We talk about our memories. Like it's always going to be a part of our life. So it's we don't really, it's like even just being here, like I, I'm so involved, even when I'm at home in Arizona, like I'm watching because I'm just so invested. And I don't feel like I can not. And so it's when you're in it, you're just like it's your life.

but once it's over and we you know god willing get a guilty verdict and see that process play out like that'll be a joyful day and for many reasons yeah i for me personally yeah yeah and i sometimes too i think you know as hard as it is to hear the details sometimes that's part of the healing too because when we put our head in the sand you know what i mean like yeah it's painful to hear that like i'll never forget sitting near you when those horrible things last week were said about highly and I felt the sadness and the pain and I could only imagine what you were thinking and at the same time I think how brave of you maybe that's the right attitude how brave of you to sit through that because so many people won't yeah it's too hard it's hard

yeah it's hard and it's really brave and I think that's the way to sort of maybe fights and healing too is to face it first yeah you know first sure like for me I I am grateful to know that would probably drive me crazy not knowing I just because of my personality but yeah they're definitely yeah it's a process for sure yeah and knowing for me I've had like I feel the sadness I'll always feel that sadness but yeah like it has helped me process I think things as well yeah And can we ask how Tammy's siblings are doing? Oh, I think, like, kind of the same thing.

I mean, I know Samantha was, you know, she's also a teacher and she teaches theater and had, you know, like a production at the end of the year. So, like, she's busy and, like, I know Tammy's dad, my uncle Ron, you know, he keeps up as much as possible. I think they keep up when they can as well. I'm sure they're watching the live streams and the updates at home. And I know when I wasn't here when they were here testifying and my cousins were here. But I know that was a hard day. And I think it's hard. Like you can't ever imagine losing your sister that way.

And it's, they're very private, just in general. I understand. And I think like nobody wants to grieve on a public level. It's, it's hard, you know, putting yourself out there for critics and criticism. And so. And no victim ever asks to be thrown into the public stage. Yeah. You know, people.

So I totally get that too. We all have this expectation. But crime is no victim asks to be a victim. No victim expects this. No one wants to say. oh, I guess I have to go public with my grief. Yeah. Yeah.

And it shouldn't be expected. And like, I mean, they've never been through that before. Like, right. I don't know. Like, it's hard to know how to act or how to respond. Like, you're just going through it the best you can. Right. And I think that's where they're at.

Like, they're just trying to get through this trial and find some peace also. Yeah. All right. I keep saying last question. I shouldn't say that. But I appreciated this one. And for those that didn't see my lunch. live. I did do a lunch live at the end of today and shared a bit. I didn't really share

how you felt the jury reacted to the end of trial today. And to Chad, what did you notice? I'll ask you because you were sitting in court today and then for those to understand, it's not the end of trial. Tomorrow, it's the end of arguments. Yes. And so tomorrow starts closing arguments. I guess it's not the end of argument. Tomorrow's closing arguments or conclusions. Yeah. And then the jury deliberates. So we're nearing the end on day 30 of Chad Daybell's trial. What did you notice in court today? The jury reacting and,

Chad. I actually think the jury was ready for a full day, just coming off the weekend. And I'm sure they're kind of chomping at the bit to like get this moving. But they, yeah, they ended early and I think we were kind of talking about how they seemed a little like, wait, wait, we're done already. I honestly thought Lieutenant Hermesiel was going to be.

be up there longer. I did too. So I didn't expect to end today. I'm actually glad, though, because I would like to be here when the verdict happens, if possible. But I do think they were like ready for a full day and they were kind of let down a little bit. They seemed kind of like, oh, because we had just come back from a break and then Hermesia was on the stand for only like, like five, ten minutes maybe. And then no cross, no cross. No cross. No cross. Yeah. Yeah, so I think they're ready, though. Like, I think some of them are, I mean, they're pretty good about keeping their faces. But sometimes you can see when they're done with Pryor or they're just like, they kind of chuckle.

Today, when Pryor stormed off, I noticed a couple of them kind of smirking a little bit. Like, like he just did some, like the prior kind of thought he was doing something pretty dramatic there. but it was kind of funny. But yeah, I think like they're ready. They seem ready. Yeah. So tomorrow I think we'll be good. It will be.

And do you feel like the prosecution has done a good job? I mean, here's a thing. Like, they've had to lay out this whole storyline and put together all these pieces and prove every point with the evidence. And I can't imagine how difficult that must have been. I know. Trying to make it make sense because talking with the jurors, a few jurors from last year, realizing they don't have the context that we have as just spectators and like family members and stuff.

So they're not able to Google. Like there's a lot that has to make sense to them. And like for us, we're sitting there thinking, oh, yeah, we know that. We know that. We know the backstory. But like, if they're not familiar with the case, like, they literally have to understand the context that it's being laid out. So I do think that, I mean, I'm not an expert by any stretch, but I am grateful for all the work that they've put in. And I do think they've done a good job.

And I hope that everything that they've been able to, you know, lay out there for. for the jury that they got a clear understanding of the whole picture. I concur. I think they've done an excellent job. And there were a lot of moving parts. And they did that. They laid it out. And they dog their eyes and crossed their cheese.

Yeah. Wanting to bring all of these rebuttal witnesses back, some the judge, you know, denied. Yeah. And they have been taking this very seriously. And I feel like they've been very methodical. And I've always. sort of like the tors in the hair, you know,

John Pryor came out swinging the first day, but they just took their time, knew what they had, and just laid it out appropriately. And I feel, I want you guys know, this is me now talking, just how I feel talking with friends

and with Julie. I do think it's going to be a guilty verdict. Yeah. I do. I think we're going to see justice for JJ, Tiley, and Tammy. And I want to ask you this too,

you know, this time around, Tiley has been a, or excuse me, Tammy has been, been a bigger part. Pyley's also been a bigger part of this, as has Tammy. You know, do you feel like people have, well, I feel like people have gotten to know her a little bit more. I want to, you know, go ahead. Yeah, like, I think with Lori's trial, I do feel like people just were not able to learn about her as much. And I think that's why it was so important for my mom to

be here as much as, you know, she could be. And, and also having promised her sister that she would be there, be there and support. And if she could be there, she would be there. And my mom is also amazing and loyal and did not let life, you know, stop her from being here as much as she could, almost every day this trial and talk about Tammy and just remember her and the memories and the good times and just have hopefully people get a better sense of she's more than a librarian and she's she's more than a teacher like there's so much to her that hopefully just as we've been here like hopefully people can feel like they have gotten to know her a little bit. And also seeing all her friends testify on her behalf. And like that has been amazing for us to see too.

Just how loved she was. I mean, we know we love her, but just how loved she was and that people loved being around her. She was fun. And she, you know, it's, it's been good for us to meet some of those teachers and to experience that also. I want to thank you and your mom for coming out more recently. I know that neither of you, this is not something I want to say that Julie or Vicky love doing. It's not like they're saying, hey, can we go live on Hidden Chew Crime tomorrow and let's keep doing this? And I want you guys to know their reasons for doing this over and over and over again are for the victims because you want to be voices and you want to humanize them and help people. you to know that that's exactly what you and vicky have done and um even for me i feel you know i've

always had a tender spot for tammie um you know she you know like gave a tribute to her in our um original podcast because i felt and this is me not you this is me this is coming from lauren um i felt like i could picture myself in her shoes if you know look i didn't marry someone young but if you you meet someone young they come from a great family you don't live with them before everything seems good it seems like a perfect match if it were an arranged marriage you know i just and that she was so young and they had children and she worked so hard and made it work and i've always had this soft spot for her like you know she did everything right she did everything she was supposed to do and um but i feel like um i've really really gotten to know her better as well as time

Kylie and JJ and even Charles through both you and your mother. And I want to thank you for that. And if that's what you two set out to do, that's what you've done. Yeah, for sure. It's, yeah, I was actually just reading this comment that says, I see Tiley as a hero. Yeah. So after sitting in court on Thursday, last Thursday, and hearing how horrific, it, things were I just kept thinking the same thing actually that I'm sure she lost her life fighting

and I feel the same way about Tammy I can't imagine that she didn't fight and so they're they're both strong women that you know I'm our brave and as hard as it is, like, I do feel like they both thought. And so I appreciate that comment. Thank you. Thank you, Kula. All right. Anything else you want to share the chats going fast?

You're probably seeing some of these. I can hardly be in over here, star them enough. Charles is trial I would so yeah the trial will be in Arizona for Charles I just saw somebody ask that I probably will try to go if I can I would love to and there probably will be other people that knew him that would I'm sure like to show up for him there right justice to Charles next and yeah yeah yeah yes he was such a wonderful man he really was yeah you saw his patience and he was always taking care of j jay j he yeah he was so great with jay and he just was just such a nice man like i i just can't imagine i just can't imagine why they thought

that was unnecessary like i mean i think he was frustrated with everything that was happened but i mean he had every right to question what was going on and it's yeah it's unfortunate that they didn't take what he was saying as serious as it was. Yeah. And as Kay Woodcock has told me that this is the way Charles would want it. He would say, take care of the children, Tammy first. Do that do that first. Worry about me later.

And so to Kay, this is exactly what Charles would want. And so, yeah, justice for Charles next. And I think people look at Charles and they're like, Charles was like so good looking. He was so fit. and just like, okay, this makes zero sense. But, okay, must be another connection there. I don't know.

But yeah, yeah, he was definitely thoughtful, and I can definitely see him saying that. Like, I'll wait and we'll go through those one by one and we'll knock them all out. So, yeah. For those I want to know what happened in court, you have my lunch live. Thank you.

Yeah, thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you for all the comments and questions. I appreciate it. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers, spammers, even stalkers.

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