Hidden True Crime - CHAD DAYBELL TRIAL: Tammy Didn’t Rate People Light or Dark

Episode Date: May 1, 2024

This episode is a compilation of trial recaps posted on YouTube each day during lunch breaks from day 10 to day 13. We heard from multiple law enforcement agencies, Chad cried in court, John Prior shamed Tammy Daybell’s body, and so much more. I was outside the Ada County Courthouse, so the audio isn’t perfect, but you can hear everything being said.  Join Hidden True Crime as we follow Chad Daybell's trial from beginning to end. Host Lauren Matthias is in the courtroom daily, doing lunch lives on YouTube and summarizing each day and week right here on Hidden: A True Crime Podcast. Lauren Matthias was a television reporter for a decade, and has followed the Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell case since 2019. Lauren and her husband John Matthias, a criminal psychologist, started Hidden True Crime in 2020 with their Season: 'Beyond the Veil' a psychological deep dive into the doomsday murders and prophet. A podcast that started at their dinner table has now become the dynamic husband-and-wife duo of Dr. John Matthias, a forensic psychologist, and Lauren Matthias, an investigative journalist, delving into the psychological facets of unthinkable crimes every week. Thank you for your support through sponsorships, subscribing, listening, and becoming a Patreon member at Patreon.com/HiddenTrueCrime Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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during lunch breaks during Chad Daybill's trial from day 10 to day 13. We heard from multiple law enforcement agencies. Chad cried in court. John Pryor shamed Tammy Daybell's body and so much more. I was outside the 80 County Courthouse, so the audio isn't perfect, but you can hear everything being said. I'm going to, I had to calm myself down a little bit. I'll be honest. I am beside myself. And in shock, I'm livid. I don't even know what to say. And what I'm referring to is the defense, the defenses.

idea that it was okay to body shame our Tammy Debeau. I'm going to get to that in just a little bit. But first, I want to share what else happened before we get to that really important thing. I'm going to take my time. I'm going to be honest. So we're watching. It's day 10 and this is all about Tammy Debo. We start with the coroner. Brenda dies. She continued from yesterday. And Brenda, is sharing that she has regrets. We learned again. We learned some new things about Tammy Daybell's autopsy. We learned that she had stomach contents, that her stomach was full when Chad Daybell told Brenda died that she had thrown up severely and had a coughing fit, but that didn't seem to be the case. We learned that all of her organs were incredibly healthy, despite Chad Daybell telling Brenda

to die that her blood pressure was low, that she was getting weak, that she was losing strength, that she was fainting, and they chalked it up to heart failure, where it looks like her heart was just fine. The only organ that Tammy Daybell had problems with was her lungs. And why? Well, even at the autopsy, she still had, her lungs were full of the red foam, which is blood. They were full. They were damaged. They were hurt. She had bruises on her arms. We didn't know that from last year, but we learned a little bit more from the autopsy about just how deep those bruises were, that that wasn't just a bump on a cupboard.

They were deep, deep bruises. These were heartbreaking things, but also really damning things for Chad Daybell. Of course, John Pryor got up and does what he always does. And he gave, I hate to say this, he gave. a hell of a defense. But he also, and this is where I'm really upset, in my opinion, he's doing things that aren't fair. He's actually being argumentative. He's writing a narrative. And what is making me really angry? I'm going to be honest, because I'm feeling angry and I'm just going to share it. I'm really frustrated with the prosecution. I'm wondering where their

is. I'm wondering where their fight is for Tammy Daybow. Like maybe, maybe. Wixom's just a terrible public speaker, but give us something. Where's the passion? I don't know. Or just how about an objection when John Pryor is arguing and setting a narrative? Every time the prosecution threw in an objection, it was sustained by the judge when it comes to John Pryor being argumentative. And John Pryor didn't even argue.

He's like, okay, okay, I'll lean back and I'll stop. John Pryor knows what he's doing too. He's just waiting for the prosecution to object. And I don't know. I'm frustrated. I'm really frustrated. The evidence is solid. The evidence is so good, but they are letting, in my opinion, John Pryor just have at it in the courtroom.

They're like, go for it, dude. Set your narrative. Yell. He was treating Brenda die like she was the murderer. Like she broke the law. Like she should be sent to jail. And nobody objected. They did finally.

And the judge sustained it as quickly as they said objection. But it is, it is maddening for me to watch. And this is what I've been feeling. And I just want you to know that John came out, my husband John, and he was watching. And he validated everything that I'd been feeling. And it was so frustrating. So I was already upset about that. I was already angry about that.

And let me remind everyone again to where I'm coming from. I have seen the death photos of Tammy Daybo. I wish I could say I had it, but I have seen them. And I think it's really important right now to bear witness to the fact that I have seen those because I need to tell you that what I saw was traumatic and that Tammy was crisscrossed, on her bed with the mattress halfway off with pink foam running out of her mouth. She was in her sacred religious garments.

At least it was either the top or the bottom, a pajama top or bottom on the other. I can't remember which is which. And she, I just want to say this, is thin and fit Tammy Deba. I wish that she could have had that privacy and that she deserved and the dignity she deserved of not being like that on her marital bed in her home. But unfortunately, someone took her life. And the jury and the gallery last year saw these photos and I saw them.

And I saw just how fit she is and was at the time of her death. So John Pryor comes along and let me remind you. Let me remind you that this defense is put on. I tell you how involved Chad is in his defense. I tell you. Chad Daybelle is there with John Pryor telling him everything. We know that John Pryor's fat. Okay, I'm going to say, I don't mean to disparage anyone, John Pryor,

but let me just lay it out for you. And you know what? I don't judge John Pryor because of that. I've never brought that up. But you know what? Gloves are off. We know that. It's a fact if we're going to look at the evidence.

So John Pryor gets up after talking to Chad, his potato client. And this is the exact quote. He says to the woman who's explaining. that Tammy Daybell is an incredible clogger, that she is in shape, that she is fit. And John Pryor gets up and he says, now, I don't want to disparage anybody, but would you describe Tammy's figure as being a body of someone who was extremely fit? I would say she was a very fit woman. You'd say she was a very fit woman.

I would. Okay. Oh, and when you start with, I don't mean to disparage anyone. You know that he's about to disparage someone. That's the same as our wonderful southern women saying, you know, I don't mean to be rude, but, you know, bless your heart. We know what that means when you start a sentence with. I don't mean to disparage anyone.

It means he's about to disparage someone. And then he goes on to say, but would you describe Tammy's figure as a body of someone who is extremely fit? Well, first off, she is because I witnessed Tammy the day she died. and she is extremely fit. In clothes, she probably wishes no one would see her in, let alone be murdered it. And so she is fit and she is thin. And for Chad to sit there.

So let me tell you something else that I know. Heather Daybell told me and us that he, Chad Daybel himself complained of Tammy gaining weight, that she had gained weight. This was a thin woman. And you know what? I'm sure she fluctuated like we all do. Oh, I fluctuate. You know what's happened to me?

Every day, by the way, I'm just going to use this for a little bit. Every day I get really mean comments saying how I've gotten fillers or Botox or my face looks different or what am I doing or I must be getting plastic surgery on a sidebar. Yeah, guess what? I've lost 20 pounds this year. My brother's in a coma. My mother-in-law died and my mother is essentially in hospice. So you know what? We all fluctuate.

Life. You marry someone who loves you for you. You marry someone where when you're 20 or 30 pounds bigger, you still love each other and you don't judge and you're going through a time in your life. Our bodies, as I always say, they are not ornaments. They are tools and they go up and down. I don't know Tammy's life, and we don't even need to assess it, but she was a thin, fit woman and I have never seen her looking otherwise. Her husband? Yeah, yeah.

He has a nickname potato and slug, I think, for a reason. With jailhouse food, he's lost a little bit of weight, I think. But do not, do not, do not body shame our Tammy Daybell after what you did to her. And then to have that publicly, to publicly shame her, you know exactly what kind of husband, Chad Daybell was. Here's some more from him. Then we get to the high fitness exercise class. I want to tell you right now, I could never do a high fitness exercise class. Do you know what those are?

Burpees, high jobs, it's intense. There's a reason why it's called high intense fitness. So next witness. Pryor keeps going. Pryor keeps going. So how would you evaluate if you were to make a determination? Would you say that Tammy Daybell was very fit? Yes.

So she had a low body fat. She had a petite figure. Is that what you're telling me? You don't have to have a low body fat or a petite figure to be highly fit. But what I observed is that she had the stamina from the time she started to the fall that she passed, she had the stamina to be able to complete those rigorous workouts. Okay. What they're trying to do with her body is disgusting to me. She was murdered.

Cause of death says suffocation by asphyxiation. This is a man who was allegedly crying yesterday. Chad Dave allegedly crying yesterday listening to his 911 call saying his wife of 30 years of five children who birthed him five children through five pregnancies was dead. Can I get your name? Oh. And now we're here today, and he's allowing his defense attorney to size up her body mask, to judge her, to get the witnesses to say, yeah. She was chubby. Really?

If you want to know who Chad Daybell is and what kind of husband he was, look no further. And he feels good about this defense. Trust me. He's solid with this defense. Chad Dable's like, yeah. My wife that I, you know, that was murdered, she wasn't all that. She wasn't that fit, let alone that she's doing burpees and clogging. Oh, we also learned that the high fitness class, which I can never do, that the high fitness class,

we actually went from Zumba to the high fitness class. This might be one of the most fit people I've ever heard of. And she's almost 50 years old. I can't do that in my 40s. I couldn't do it in my 30s. In fact, I joke, maybe I should try to start, you know, going on a walk around the block again. It's been a rough year. If you wonder about those tears, look no further to how they're treating Tammy today,

that they're going to focus on her body. This is a man that we know cheated on her. He's not even denying that in this court case. Chad DeBell is not denying that he cheated on Tammy during this trial. We know that. He's like, yeah, with this hot blonde, Mrs. Texas, stop calling her Miss Texas. It was Mrs. Texas, which anyone can do. I could go become Mrs. Nevada right now if I wanted to, although I don't have a turquoise bikini. So this is a man who cheated on his beautiful wife, his stunning wife with five children who ran the publishing company, who worked full time as a librarian, who gave the family insurance, who, who ran the house, who he chastised when she wanted to get away and play a video game on her phone, who had depression and anxiety, we wonder why. And they're getting together, John Pryor and Chad Dabler are getting together and saying,

you know what, we should really let people know that she wasn't up to par in her, in how she was with her body. That she did not look extremely fit. I mean, and maybe this is why I had to cheat with her. He is showing zero remorse. He's doing the opposite by doing this. I'm so angry. I'm so angry. Yeah, and let's not forget that menopause is something every woman goes through,

and anemia is probably something the majority of women deal with at one point in their life. Right? Right. And to the people, by the way, thank you to someone who said on the chat, Lauren, and I love that you haven't gotten ready for the day to day, and you're still going live at lunch, I don't care. Yeah, you're right. But you know what, women can't win.

I'll just say that. Women can't win. I look like this, and people are like, why don't you get ready a little bit more? Why don't you show some care? I get all dolled up and I put my lipstick on or I, you know, get my lash extensions and I get my Botox because who doesn't love Botox?

Yeah, I get it. And then shame on me for caring about how I look. Women can't win. So I just think, and now we have a woman who's been murdered who's been murdered, who they're talking about is being murdered, and they're going to body shame her in court, her husband, that cheated on her. So can we just as women, and I just, for Tammy Daybell,

if nobody else, as women, we need to be kinder to one another. Whatever we choose to do, Botox or not, hair blown out or not, eyelash extensions or not, lipstick or not, our bodies are tools that I am so grateful for. They're not objects to be judged. And I just hope this community can also do a little bit better and maybe have it be done in the memory of Cammy Daybill because I am so angry today. I am back in Boise, back in Boise. and I have two wonderful people on each side of me. I have Laura, juror number, what number were you?

Four. Four. Juror number four of the Lori Vallow daybell trial last year. And then I have juror number 18. 18 of the Lori Vallow daybel trial. By the way, there's someone else here with us too. We've got a lot. This is Julie.

Hello, hello. You can use... What do you call them, Hidden gems? Hidden gems. Hello, Hidden gems. hidden gems. How do you want me to introduce you right now? We, so, so can I, can I name drop?

You can name drop. Okay. So Julie is an once ex friend of Julie Roe. Julie Roe has been mentioned in trial now as a friend of Chad Daybells and Julie you, you said it while we were out walking to Whole Foods for some food earlier today you were you called yourself brainwashed yeah brainwashed for sure I believed oh you know a lot of this stuff I was I was in it and there's a lot more people responsible for some of these um things that have occurred in belief systems than then people realize and it has it's destroyed lives

and I'm just like ready to tell my story and and own it and have a voice and yeah so stay tuned I'm doing an interview and you know so this has to stop and things need to be exposed and I have to I mean I believed a lot of it I mean I wasn't all the way there and some of those belief systems but I I was in I was I was in on Julie Rowe I was friends with her for many years and it's time for me to tell my story so and thank you so anyway we will I will be interviewing Julie later today it was actually my interview with Larry Woodcock recently that she texts and she said, it's time. For JJ, Tiley, and Tammy, if not anyone else, I'm ready to share my voice.

So we'll be doing a recorded interview later today. But let's talk. Today in court was the paintball gun, the not paintball gun incident, the not, not, not. Well, let me ask you, Tom and Laura, how do you feel, you know, the prosecution is coming with some great witnesses and some great evidence today to show that this was a shooting, that this was a rifle, that this was not a paintball gun. Of course, John Pryor's Cross right now, which is discouraging. But how do you feel the jury is taking in all of the evidence and the witnesses?

Who wants to go first? Laura, Tom. Do you want me to tell you how I think it's going? Or do you want me to tell you how I think they're taking it? Well, it was a little different for me. Yeah. Tell us how you're taking it. Share her, you're taking it.

Well, because last year it wasn't really, it wasn't, they weren't prosecuting Chad. They were prosecuting Lori. And for me, it was like so confusing. I'd never seen a paintball gun. So I was like, can a gun really look like a paintball gun? I had no idea. They did try to introduce a picture of a paintball gun last year and the defense objected. And so I did ask that specific question of-

You did. guys when we were in the jury. Wow, you asked the specific, you asked the specific question. Wow. Yeah. Because I wanted to know if that could be a possibility and the feedback was yes. No, I've never gone back and actually looked to see what a paintball gun looks like. But for me, it didn't really play into any of my conclusions as to guilt or innocence. Okay. But I, but I, I think it's a bigger role for this time because there's a lot of coordination and I think it was an attempt on her life. And Alex didn't know how to shoot a gun. And that's pretty obvious.

And he didn't know what he was doing. And he had what a week earlier tried on Brandon Boudreau and now he's trying. And I think there was a text from Lori or a comment from somebody saying, she, he messes everything up. Wasn't there something like that? Yeah. So I think it, you know, for me it was all accumulation. I was like trying to take it in.

I didn't know what a grindal was or a drop or any of that. So it was all like, I don't know. Yeah. Okay. So I think it would depend on who it was, how they're taking it. Yeah. Thank you. I want to know, how do you feel like the jury is taking the,

the shooting or this, this is a big part of sort of saying that people were targeting Tammy, right? And John Pryor, the defense is really trying, John Pryor, the defense is really trying to say, look, this was an absolute paintball gun incident and it was a bipolar teenager. That's the scapegoat is the unknown bipolar teenager. Do you feel like the prosecution is getting through that this is really something that's really important? Do you think it's going to matter in the end when it comes to whether or not Tammy was murdered or that her causes were natural? I mean, what are your thoughts about how important this is and how the jury might be taking it? Well, I think it's just a piece of evidence that points toward

the idea that they were trying to kill Tammy. You can definitely buy a pipeball gun that looks exactly like an AR rifle. So I can see how that could be mixed up. And the hopper is on top, and it would look real similar to that scope. Tammy did seem pretty sure that it was a paintball gun, though, so I don't know. You actually bring up an interesting point that a lot of people, you know, you clearly know about guns. And I would say a lot of people in Idaho do know about guns, which is going to play. Yeah, Laura's nodding, which might play into the opinions. But is that going to be for good or for bad?

Are they going to say, well, a paintball gun looks so different than that, or is it going to help? In my opinion, I think they're doing an okay job today. It's frustrating. But when you're in there and you're watching the jury, I think they've maybe made up their mind. I mean, honestly, I think they might have made up their mind yesterday when they decided to body shame Tammy. Any thoughts on that, Laura, by the way?

Tom just looked the other way. Well, I was at home watching when he did that. And there was some foul language texts that I may or may not have sent Tom during that asking, did I really just hear? I was so mad and sad for her that this is how they're, you know, putting a final pen into her life is this. And it's so disgusting. Tom, I just want to share Tom's book. Honestly, I'll say I'm about to turn this over.

and asked Tom to share his book because Tom, it changed Tom's life so much. He was not in the true crime community. He didn't want to be in such a community. And he became part of this community after he did his civic duty and had to sit through six weeks of Lori Valo Dave Bell's trial last year.

And he's now written a book. He's giving proceeds to help children. And will you just share where they can, he can't publish the book until the end of this trial for good reason. He's interviewed everybody that, you know, some really important people, including law enforcement, will you share with the audience where they could support you

and support children and support victims of crime, really in general, and people who serve on the jury, like everything and justice? Will you share where they can pre-order your book? So the book is Money, Power and Sex, the Lori Valo Daybill trial by juror number 18. You can buy it on pre-order right now, If you go to tom Evansauthor.com, it's going to be released as soon as there's a verdict in this trial. So hopefully end of May, early June.

And my charity, the Hope House, is an organization that takes care of children. They take in children in need from wherever, provide for them a home and education and everything they need until their adults. And then even after their adults, a lot of them go back and help support Hope House. really great organization. You can find them a home to come to.com. Look them up and maybe give them a donation. It would be awesome too. Thank you. So today was today started out with a sweet gentleman who grew up in Springville, Utah, who lived near Chad and his family and knew his whole family. And it ended with some, we got some zingers in, some mic drops. So this is what I want to cover today though.

My, my, and we heard from somebody at Tammy's school who also worked with Emma at Central Elementary in Sugar City, Idaho. We heard from the Arnold's. That's where I'm going, who are the neighbors of Chad Daybell and the realtor who took Chad and David Warwick to the property where many people were gathering. We heard again about Laurie and Chad, or Laurie's seven children. which, by the way, I have the answer to the seven children. I've posted it everywhere.

So, so hidden true crime, Facebook.com slash hidden true crime, X.com slash hidden true crime, Instagram.com slash hidden true crime. YouTube.com slash hidden true crime. What have I forgotten? We don't have a Pinterest account. It's not on TikTok yet. But you can go see Chad and Lori's seven children. Are they the seven gatherers?

I don't know. But Elena and James, who are the names of Chad and Lori, absolutely had seven children, according to Chad Deval, who wrote this in an email to Lori about their past lives. I don't know why it hasn't been brought up yet. Why we're waiting? I don't know. Are they going to bring this up that Chad DeBel said they had seven kids?

I'm surprised they haven't, but they haven't. But if you want to see that document, J.J. is one of the children, sweet little JJ. Melanie Polowski, also known as Melanie Bidreau or Melanese, she is one of the children. Tiley is not one of the children. There's a couple of dudes on there. One's a football player in high school.

Chad lets you know. Clearly, Chad was like living some sort of fantasy game. I remember writing my fortune out, by the way, when I was 10 years old. It's true. I wrote my fortune out. I had a wishing well in my yard. I think I had six kids. I liked, I wanted to serve.

of others and we had a big mansion and I drew the floor plan. I've got to be honest. I feel like Chad Daybell's doing the exact same thing. There's a difference though. He's an adult and he's married and he has five children and he has a life that he built with his wife of 30 years and he's got grandchildren. And it's like he's rewriting history. No, no. He's James and Elena and they've got five kids and the kids are popular and one of the kids is a football player. It's like playing a game of MASH. Remember MASH who played MASH? who played MASH. That is what Chad Daybell as a nearly 50-year-old man is doing with Lori. And of course, unfortunately, Lori bought it hook, line, and sinker so much so that she's letting

people know that she has seven children. This is new information. This is new information. But I need to talk to you about Temi Deabel's beliefs. I didn't realize what a big bombshell that was yesterday in court for all of you wanting to talk about Tammy Daybill's belief in dark and light. So we're going to talk about Tammy Daybell really quickly. And then we're going to get back to the mic drop by Brother Arnold. That's what I'll call him. He's a member of Chad's Ward, call each other brother and sister. Brother Arnold had the best mic drop of the day.

But I first want to talk about Tammy Daybell's belief system in dark and light that came up yesterday. A lot of people were surprised by that. I was not. And I want to clarify some things because I don't want to let John Pryor win with a narrative that he presented in court that was false. So we really, really, really need to talk about this. While looking over the chats, there are several that lead me to believe Tammy along with Mark, Emma, Garth, Seth, and Leah have knowledge of the belief in light and dark people that chat talk about and believed. Okay. So what I gather from that is your assessment in the reports that

after you reviewed all of the emails and all, and you said you reviewed them all? Yes. That's a significant job. Yes. And in reviewing all of those, you came to the conclusion that the De Bell, Tammy Daybell, Chad Daybell, and his five children had knowledge of the belief in light and dark people. Yes. And the light and dark is a religious reference that's mentioned by Chad, right? Yes. It's mentioned by other people in this case, right? Yes. It's also mentioned to some extent in predominantly most religions. Would you agree with that? Say that again. Predominantly in most religions, there's a reference to light and dark, right?

I can't testify that. Okay. All the religions. Okay. And then the religious practice that these folks practice, that Tammy and the children and Chad practices of what faith? LDS. Okay. Okay. Then we go on and if you would,

I'll take a look at the next one where it says, during the chats, Mark's camera was not working, and Tammy informed him that his camera was cursed. and dad was removing it, right? Yes. Okay. In more chats, Mark asked if anything was found or notable in him when he was body-coded. I'm not sure what body-coded means.

Do you have any knowledge of what of being a body-coded or body-coded talks about? No. Okay. Okay. But it was Mark who was talking about the body-coding. Would that be your assessment? Yes. Okay.

And then Tammy responds, you has a lot of weapons, chords and curses plus tracked emotions. We cleared out quite a bit. We'll do that more regularly for you. So the second to the last sentence says we cleared it out, right? Yes. Would you believe that that was Tammy and Chad who were clearing out these negative cords and curses? In this email, yes. Okay. And then we'll do that more regularly for you. And again, it's we'll do that more regularly for you. That implies that it was both Tammy and Chad talking about helping them clear out these weapons, right? Yes. Okay. Then we go down to the next one, and it starts with on another chat, on another chat, Chad said, mom and I taught 12-year-old Sunday school yesterday.

Actions confirmed he is 4.2 dark. You see that? Yes. Do you have any knowledge as to whether is dead or has been murdered or any investigation into that kind of a matter? I have no knowledge of that. Okay. And do you know who it is? I do not. Okay. But obviously, it's someone who attends church where or attends Sunday school where Chad and Tammy went to their Sunday school, right? Yes. So we could presume that it was someone in Fremont or Madison County, right? Yes.

Okay. And then it goes on, I will enjoy watching his growth to world terror and domination. And then Emma replies, I like him, no. The next line is, I will enjoy watching his growth to world terror and domination, right? Yes. Emma replies, I like him to know. Tammy and Chad reply, unfortunately, he's already influencing. Do you know? I do not. Okay.

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at TrueDiagnostic.com by using code Hidden True Crime at checkout. That's true diagnostic. T-R-U-D-A-G-N-O-S-T-I-C.com. Just use code hidden true crime to save 20% off. Plus, if you subscribe, you'll get an additional 20% off. Discover your true age today. First off, and I have somebody here that's going to help me explain this. No, come here, Julie.

Just be right here. This is Julie. She's going to share something with me. But first off, it is no surprise to me that Tammy Daybell believed in light and darkness. First off, let's clear that off. This is a Julie Rowe belief. Well, let me, let's start here. Let's ask Julie.

Did you ever know about Chad Daybell? Did you ever know Chad Daybell? I never met him. I knew of him. I heard of his name. I never met him. I never went to preparing a people, nothing like that.

So no. Did you follow Julie Rowe? Yes, I followed Julie Rowe. Did you meet Julie Rowe and start following her before Chad ever committed his crimes? Yes. Right when she wrote her books, 2014, I read her books. So I've known her since 2014.

I didn't get maybe, I'm calling it that there was waves. So there was like the first wave of people, second wave. I was kind of more in the second wave. So that first wave of people were more Eric and Chad. Yeah. And people that I haven't even met or names have been mentioned, like a Jason.

I don't, I never met those people. I was more in the second wave. But I heard of chat. Yeah. So you're a second waiver. Julie Rose second waiver. Yeah. You can say.

Yeah. Second wave. Realm two, whatever. Did you believe in dark and light? Scales. Yeah, so I was introduced to that scale when Julie told me that I was a 4.2 light, which don't believe anymore. You guys should know that.

I reached out to Eric Smith and I, you know, I've talked to him about this, about the scale. And I said, where did this come from? I wanted to know if he knew because he was kind of in that first wave. As I was kind of coming in, he was kind of coming out. And I wanted to know, it's awfully close. They can hear you. They can hear you. But I'll go like that.

You're fine. I'll make you a little more cozy. It's fine. Here, hold on. Okay, there we go. Okay, so, yes, from Eric Smith. We interviewed Eric, he's on our YouTube channel. Eric Smith, a friend of Chad Debo.

And okay, go ahead. He's a friend of mine. And we're a friend of yours. He's a good guy, guys. He's a good guy. Said that people were talking about this light and dark thing on Freedom Forum. He had been introduced to it, LBS Freedom Forum.

And he'd been introduced to it. He kind of was researching it. There was some concepts there. I mean, I don't want to speak for him, but this is kind of like in a conversation that we had. There was concepts there that were like interesting to him because he had questions about like people coming down and like from, you know, pre-mortal

and people sometimes are innately evil and you have good people. And so there was just these like concepts that he was researching. Well, he took that to Chad and Julie and he said they ran with it. So they kind of took it. They started labeling people as dark and light

and it went to a new level. And I'm telling you that hearing that Tammy believed in the system, does not surprise me, does not shock me at all, because there are lots of people, I'm telling you, lots of people that heard this and believed in this light and dark system, but not at the level that these guys took it and not where it was like labeling like, oh, you're dark and you're light and you're, it was more like the 4.2 was like, oh, I've been down here four times and multiple probations. I've had four different times here. It was explained to us a little differently.

They took it, twisted it. And I believe that Tammy more believed it the way I believed it and a lot of other people believed it in more of an interesting way of a concept of something new information and hmm that's interesting not in a oh my gosh this one's a zombie this one's dark so anyway I think they took it in a way that was hurting people I don't think Tammy took it that way and I don't think this was shocking of course she's going to hear that from Chad she heard from Julie Roe she heard it from lots of people we all did so anyway I just want to make that clear because I I feel like people are like oh my gosh Tammy she believed in this she believed in this no not at that. I, my personal opinion. That's just what I want to say. Okay, thank you. And I'm going to do a spoiler

alert. I did interview Julie yesterday. It's a recorded interview. This Julie, not Julie, this, this other Julie, the good Julie. Well, sorry, that's me saying that. But sorry, so, hi, Vana, thank you. But, so spoiler alert with their interview, let's just reiterate so that they know, do you still believe in the dark and light scale? No, I do not. And you don't think it's good. No, I don't think, I don't think it's good. I think it's done a lot of damage to sit there. And I think, I think even trying to figure out who I was in past probation, all of that is very damaging. I've shelved a lot of things because it doesn't resonate with me as much anymore. But I do, what I'm focusing on now is my life in this present moment, who I am now.

And I just want to be a good person here and now. So yeah, I think that that can do a lot of damage, that kind of information, especially people who have ego connected to it and want attention and all that and where they take that to these new levels. Some people just want information. Some people just want to understand things, truth, a little bit more for themselves. And to, you know, for me, you'll hear in my interview where my motives were and everything. And I think intent goes into a lot of this, like the intention of people who are learning about this.

And I think the intentions of these people that took at this level were not the same intentions for people like me and Eric Smith and others. And Tammy DeBelt, it wasn't that same intention. We just wanted to become better people. We were just like, how can we have more love for people and more empathy for people and how can we grow? These people are like, how can I get more following and how can I build my ego bigger? And how can I get more attention and feel, you know, they have a lot of insecurities, trauma, whatever. I don't know.

I don't want to like go too deep into it. You'll hear my interview. But that's my opinion. Thank you. Yes. You'll hear Julie's interview. So let me explain. Thank you, Julie.

I appreciate it. So let me explain there's more coming. First off, I want to point out what Julie just said, which is a large subgroup is believing in this. So whether or not you believed it as someone that is LDS, I'm telling you, and Julie is telling you, she's an insider in the second wave. We've got a second waiver here that this is a thing that a lot of people in the area were believing, whether you've heard it as someone that was LDS or not, I'm just telling you, I had never heard it. I'd never heard until this case, but it is a prominent belief in the area that was going around and Julie Roe was teaching this. So now let's go back to

Tammy because I'm going to get to a point where I am not going to let John Pryor's false narrative stand. So I am not surprised that Tammy Dable bleed in dark and light because Chad was publishing, as you remember, Julie Rowe's books. Julie Rowe taught the light and dark scale. A lot of the energy healers in the area were teaching about light and darkness. Okay. Tammy Dable dealt, we'll call it Delt, dealt with her husband long enough that when he had a vision, To move to Rexburg, she was upset by it, but she ended up moving. I think, in other words, Tammy Dayball got fairly passive with her husband. Move to Rexburg for Chad. Chad Daybell wrote,

Tammy is not a visionary woman, but she does what I say and she follows me. And that's what makes her a good wife. Tammy put up with Chad. Now, this is the false narrative from Pryor. Pryor made it look like it was Tammy DeBell that was raiding 12-year-old children dark, and it was not. And this is my biggest concern about the defense right here, is that he's creating a narrative. I keep saying that he's doing a narrative

that's just simply false. This should be objected. When he read that, it was a text from chat. It was a text from Chad. Chad is the one saying Tammy and I taught Sunday school. Well, I can tell you that this boy, that prior should have never named, because he's still a minor, is dark.

He never said Tammy rated this boy dark. In the family chat, prior, falsely stated, and then Tammy and Chad said this. On redirect, on redirect, Lindsay Blake got up and said, this is not true. This was Chad that was writing this. It was not Tammy and Chad. So did Tammy believe in the light and dark scale? Unfortunately, probably yes, we have an interview with Suzanne Freeman. She said as much. Suzanne Freeman told me that she saw Tammy Dable at one conference to remind you who Suzanne Freeman is. She had a near-death experience who's Chad Daybell as books.

She published. Suzanne Freeman was not a fan of Julie Roe and said to chat as much in an email that this belief system of Julie Rose will end in death and destruction. She wrote that an email to chat. She told me that she went to one conference where they were promoting Julie Rose books. Julie Roe made the daybells a lot of money,

a lot of money. Tammy Daybel, I think was able to buy some new shoes with the money. They were able to go out and eat at restaurants. And when Susie and they were, And Freeman saw Tammy at this one single conference, the only one we've ever had witness that she attended, the other she didn't.

Suzanne Freeman said, Tammy, be wary, be careful of Julie Rowe. And Tammy said, what do you mean? As in she was following her. I think you guys underestimate just how many people were following these beliefs. And yeah, it's heartbreaking. Aunt Vicki never follows these beliefs, never knew about these beliefs.

Aunt Vicki, never heard of it, couldn't believe it. But she's heartbroken, as our members, many, many people as am I that maybe this is why Tammy Daybel couldn't seek help, could have figured out, because these beliefs were rampant in a subgroup in the area. And it was Chad Debel that was raiding people who said he had the power. Chad Daybel, again, is not the most creative guy in the world. He copies everything. Chad Daybell copied people's near-death experience books. Chad DeBell copied a light and dark scale from somewhere that was going around the area and then claimed he had the power.

I just want to explain that. Tammy Daybell, nowhere have we seen is raiding people light and dark. And again, Chad Daybell tells us as much by saying she's not visionary. She's not a visionary woman. I'm the visionary. I'm the one that says what happens

and what's going on. Tammy Daybel, yeah, she was married to this loser for 30 years. She was a martyr till the very end. He took her life. She deserves so much better, but she was not raiding people light and dark that we have seen. It was Chad. So just remember that, get that clear.

That was John Pryor's narrative, which is very concerning. If you guys all heard that yesterday, that means the jury's hearing it too, and that worries me. That's my biggest worry about John Pryor, is he's stating false things. And he's putting some people in a bad light. So there you go. I am not surprised that Tammy Dayball believed in this.

It was rampant in the area. It's a very, very, very bad belief. It did lead to death and destruction. Another thing people want to point out about Tammy Daibel is she did believe that a camera was cursed. Let me remind all of you about the eight-hour podcast that I did over on Mormon stories about visions of glory, the book, and Preparism.

In that book, in Visions of Glory, they talk about walls and tables and chairs listening. being cursed with evil spirits, being dark, being light. I don't, I've never heard whether or not Tammy Dayball read Visions of Glory, but I can't imagine she did it. It was a number one seller last year in Utah. Do you guys know that? Number one, number one fiction book sold in Utah, Visions of Glory last year.

That book talks about objects being cursed. So keep this in mind. This is what I've been trying to tell people. These books were everywhere. And yes, then Chad Daybilt took these terrible, terrible beliefs, and he created a light and dark scale, and he started labeling children dark. That's what he did.

But Tammy, she might have gone along with her husband, maybe even believed he was a visionary. God bless her soul. But she was not raiding children. dark. That's the narrative John Pryor wants you to believe. Let's end with the mic drop from brother Arnold. It was it was terrific. It was terrific. I loved it. John Pryor can be very, very patronizing if you haven't noticed. John Pryor asks these witnesses questions all the time that he knows the answer to. Like, do you recall what the Church of Jesus Christ to Latter-day Saints is, help remind me what city

were in. Help me understand who are you are Chad and Tammy's kids again. It's a very patronizing thing he does, asking witnesses question that he knows the answer to. And it's clear he knows the answer. Remind me. And he did that. He did that with the realtor on the stand today. Asking about the acreage of Chad's house. Can you just consider how much acreage? I just, you know, can you you remind me? And I thought his answer was spot on. You tell me, John Pryor, you own it. Oh, was John Pryor ticked off? He got red-faced and he quickly asked for a sidebar. And all counsel and the judge went to the back. I was so proud of that moment. I actually thought his answer was fair, that it was awesome. They came back out. They strike the answer, but it will never be forgotten.

fact the sidebar made it more memorable for the jury. I saw some of the jurors smirking. It was a great moment. And they caught, he caught, he caught John Pryor in his own game. John Pryor's entire game is stricken but not forgotten. Everything he says, including the story about Tammy Dable, allegedly raiding people dark, which isn't true, is about creating a narrative that's fault that it might not be in the evidence in the end, but it's not forgotten. So I loved that he was caught in his own game today. I love that. And I want you guys all to keep in mind as John Pryor is doing this defense that a lot of what he's saying is he's creating a narrative that just simply isn't true.

Listen to the, listen to the fine, listen to the words. Chad and Tammy. Chad wrote this. Those little words about who is sending what matter. and John Pryor's not making it clear. Brother Arnold was awesome. I commend him. I hate to say it, but I even saw the judge smirk.

I think he was holding that back, but I saw it. Okay, I got to bring up Chad's hands for a second and then just talk about it because I've been noticing them for three weeks now. And the more I notice and the more they bother me, so I'm just going to lay it out on the table. Chad Deval has hands that look, like I've been told I kind of have man hands. And my hands look older, I believe, than my age. I haven't taken care of them.

I've been a hard worker. I don't use lotion. I don't put sunscreen on them. Criticize me. Shame me. My hands are, they are what they are. And if I have man hands that are older, Chad would have feminine hands that look maybe 15 years or,

I mean, his hands look like they belong on a 30-year-old. You know what they say about hands. Soft hands, soft storm. I don't know. My point is, I think it represents his work ethic. Chad DeBelle, he even dug graves allegedly. But these hands look like they've done absolutely nothing in his life, but maybe write a few near-death experience books while sitting at the BYU library. I don't know what it is about his hands, but I've got to bring it up.

Day 13 of the Chad Daybell trial. I'm outside the Ada County Courthouse where I am attending court today. And today is all about pings, pings, bings, as John Pryor meant, called them once and more pings. And actually the FBI agent, agent balance, actually refers to it as cast data. It's a cast data that we were talking about today, not pings or bings, but cast data. But we know them as cell phone pings or an easier way. to say them. I'm going to be reading to you some of the data that we had today, and I'm going to help all of you understand what just went on today this morning in court, because it's really,

really important. It's definitely what happened today was smoking gun evidence. Many of you noted that John Pryor did not make one single objection, perhaps for the first time until it was time for cross-exam, and he got up, and Agent Nick Balance did, in the same. incredible job answering questions and I'm going to explain to you why it might have felt confusing it is very very complicated and it took a village to actually collect this data the reason why it's complicated is because agent balance has to be very specific about what phone number connected to what device was pinged are associated with what device because they still can't prove that just because it was Alex Cox's device that

Alex Cox was there with his device, right? So when going down all of the information, they have to specifically say, well, this number, this device associated with this number was found at this place and this number texted this number and it gets confusing. You have to keep track of all of the numbers to really understand it.

And then you throw in the fact that these people, this crew had burner phones. So we have multiple numbers for Chad Daybell, for example, or multiple numbers for Alex. And then we have Homer J Maximus Gmail and then we have an ICloud account. So that is why it feels confusing. But here's the bottom line.

Here's the breakdown. Like if you wanna know what this was about today, you can listen to this next thing and you can move on and be like, got it. But this is what was pretty much today's witness. Chad Daybell's phone pained at his property, at the burial site of JJ and at Tiley. And he was also during that time texting with Lori Vallow, his mistress.

I think we can call it up because they refer to an affair going on. And he was within just meters of these burial sites. That's pretty much what was laid out today. Of course, we had to say Chad Daybell's device. So I'm going to read you. I want to thank our moderator Troublemaker Baker for being with me throughout the entire morning. We were sharing Google Docs back and forth with everything. I could not see the screen.

Here are the details, okay? So first, let's start with September 9th. What was September 9th? Well, September 8th was the last day Tiley Ryan was ever seen in Yellowstone National Park. That was a Yellowstone trip. There are additional pings in that evening. We did not get into those today with Agent Balance. I've shared some of those pings in Rexburg on our YouTube channel.

If anybody wants to post those ping videos, there are additional pings after. after Yellowstone that are quite eerie, he did not get into those. We only got into the morning that Tiley Ryan was buried and burned or whatever else happened to her on Chad Daybell's yard. We know that she was found, the way she was found is tragic. This is what we know on September 9th. That would be the day that Tiley's remains landed and ended up in Chad Daybell's yard. And also remember that Pryor set this whole stage about Chad Daybell having a pasture. having a farm. He was setting the stage of like Chad couldn't possibly know that children were buried or he

could have easily not known that children were buried in his yard because, you know, he's out plowing the fields or, you know, feeding the livestock he doesn't have. He sort of said this again, this narrative, John Pryor did, of a farm. And that's also why this is so important. A debunk said, no, Chad Daybell was there. He absolutely knew. So here we go, September 9th. Rather than being, agent balance and saying this phone number and this device was at this place, I'm just going to lay it out to you and say Alex Cox, Lori Valo. But please know that all we can be certain of is that their devices were at this place at this time, but I'm just going to say their names.

Okay, so on September 9th, that would be the day after Tyler went missing. Alex Cox at from 240 to 3.30 a.m. Alex Cox was just west of Laura. Valerie Valos condo. It's via Google location, so it's a less pinpoint accuracy, but that's where he was. Then a 437 a.m. to 441 a.m. Alex was at his condo. Now we jump to 720. At 720 a.m. on against September 9th to 840, Chad Daybell was home. And Chad Daybell was exchanging text at 720 at 7.42 at 753, 8 and 803 AM. And at 803, he made an outbound call to Lori Vallow's device. At 8.11 a.m., that Chad Daybell number made that outbound call, and it was 180 seconds. And the call is to Alex Cox.

So now we have Chad Daybell calling Lori and Alex on September 9th. At 815 to 906 a.m. Daybell's phone, Chad Daybell's phone, uses three towers. that cover his residence. At 815 and at 839 and 858, there is a text exchange with Lori between Chad and Lori. Where was I in this list?

Here we are. And there's an incoming text to Chad Daybell at 905 from a number that the FBI doesn't recognize. We don't know what that is. I'm surprised it didn't come up on cross. We have no idea what that number is. At 8.49 a.m. Alex Cox is at his condo or his townhouse. And then by 915, he is just south of Chad Daybell's property. Well, it looks like he's driving to Chad Daybells then. At 9.22 a.m., he is actually at the very gate that allows you to enter Chad's property via a vehicle. So in other words, he is entering Chad's property with a vehicle driving onto the property.

and at 1039 and at 1057 a.m. Alex is at or near Tiley's remains. Boom. So we have the calling, the planning, the going. Now 1035 a.m. same day to 12 p.m. So two hours nearly. Chad's property, Chad's phone call during this time, this morning between those two hours, made multiple text messages at one phone. call to Lori. At 1142 to 1145 a.m. via Google location, Alex's location is consistent with travel away from Chad's property. So now we're going away from Chad's property, 1142 to 1145. At 1145 a.m., there's a 183 second call from Chad Daybell, who is at his property to Lori at the sameish time. Alex, um, Alex's phone. then to Lori at the same time.

So that's interesting. At 1145, that time when Alex just left Chad Daybell's property, he gets a call from Chad Daybell, and then he talks to Lori as he's leaving. I wonder why. And then at 1232, right after Alex has left the property, Daybell is at home and he receives texts from Lori. And at 1233, Lori receives text from Chad.

And now Chad is moving away from his house. And at 1239, Chad Daybell is traveling towards Rexburg. That would be towards Lori's house. And he's receiving texts from Lori. At 1243 to 1249, the tower usage from Chad Daybell to Alex Cox and to Lori Cox. In other words, they're all together. Their overlapping coverage shows all of the phones at Lurries and Alex's condos or townhomes all together right after they're all that Alex and Chad are at Chads.

They're now all together after now we get to September 23rd. What is September 23rd? Well, that is the burial day of JJ. J.J. So September 23rd, are you ready? Between and we know that again, David Warwick and Melanie Gibb were there. Those two came up and crossed. There was a moment where I just swapped him.

and I was like, oh, go prior. He's bringing up Melanie and David, wondering about their pings. We don't know about him. But they were there that night. I'll just remind everyone from September 22nd to September 23rd. The last day JJ was seen is September 22nd. So now we're at September 23rd, 2019,

the day the law enforcement believed that JJ was buried at Chad Daybell's yard. At 359 a.m. to 8.35m. on September 23rd. And there's a text from Chad to Lori, multiple outbound texts, one inbound text between Daibout, from 143 at Daibow's house and Lurries. Now at 901 to 941 a.m., Alex is home per Google location. But at 925, there's a call from Chad, who is at home to Alex. So while Alex is home on that day at 941 a.m., Chad call.

them. And that call was 38 seconds long. They clearly picked up and knew what needed to be said. At 927 and at AM, right after that, there is communication between Chad and Lori. And Dave, Chad's phone now uses three towers that cover his residence. And Lori's is using a tower in Rexburg, probably at her town hall. Rexburg is her townhome. At 9.45 a.m. for the Google location, now Alex is moving towards Chad's property. all had these conversations and now what happens oh Alex is once again leaving his town home and heading towards Chad's right after they all communicate at 955 to 1012 per google location Alex is at chad's property at 956 a.m and at 1002 a.m via GPS with three to four meter margin of

air Alex are you ready for this is at jj's remains three to four meter margin of air that is not a lot Alex is at JJ's remains where JJ's remains were found. Alex is there from 95 to 10, 12 a.m. At 9.30 a.m. then and 1027 a.m. between Chad Daybell and Lori, they have a conversation. And then on one tower, there are multiple calls and texts from Chad to Lori. One inbound text from Lori to Chad. And then two other towers. One outbound call, Chad to Lori. And one inbound message, SMS message from Lori to chat.

And because it used two towers, Chad's phone would need to be in the overlapping coverage area. Now from 1012 a.m. to 1020 a.m., Alex Cox's Google location moves from Chad's property back to Rexburg. Again, that would be Lurries. At 1013, Alex calls Lori. Hmm. At 1016 a.m., Chad Daybell has three outbound messages to Lori, all at 1016 a.m. And then at this time, at the times when Alex was in the vicinity of Chad's property, here are a few times. And we brought these up so they can see that he's hardly ever there. He was there on August 7th.

He was there in August 24th in the evening. He was there on September 6th in the afternoon. He was there on September 25th and September and then on October 15th. And then we have a question, did they testify to this? That's a little confusing why he was there on October 15th. On October 9th, here's another important one. What was October 9th? The not paintball incident.

The not, not not paintball incident was October 9th, 2019. The day of the shooting that Tammy Daybilt called 911 and said someone was putting a rifle at her and there was a shooting. On October 9th, 2019, between 5.16 p.m. and 11.53 p.m., Alex's Google location was found at Alex's condo. So on that October 9th, what they're saying is those five hours, Alex's device was at his condo on the 9th. So I'm going to have to figure that one out. Maybe we haven't gotten quite there yet. But let's go back to what's important. That is what today was.

That is what they read aloud. That is the evidence that the jury now has. If they weren't able to get it all either, they have it in front of them now. They have the evidence. They have the descriptions. And Agent Nick Balance will be called back to the stand later. also learned that later on in the trial. This will not be his only time testifying.

So they're going to simply go over this again and again. Now, Cross was interesting. And cross, and again, I don't want to get prior too hard of a time. Like he is working for his client. He needs Chad Debel needs a good defense. I think that John Pryor did the best he could. Again, I loved the moment where he, you know, made people question where Melanie Gibb and David Warwick were at these times.

But what I found interesting, about the cross with John Pryor was he really is once again sort of trying to imply that the FBI is framing Chad DeBowl, which I've always said. I said, look, not only is he framed, is, is Chad's defense claiming that Lori is framing him and Alex have framed him. He's going as far as saying police officers in Rexburg framed him. The Rexburg Police Department has framed him. The Sheriff's Department, Freeman County Sheriff's Department has framed him. And now we're getting into something as grandiose as the FBI is possibly framing him. That was essentially what John Pryor was saying today by suggesting that only the government

is allowed to use the tools that connect to the PING-cast data system. That's sort of where John Pryor was trying to land. I do find it interesting because Chad Daybell's political beliefs are extremely anti-government, nothing wrong with being anti-government, but they go into, they're quite extreme and they go into some conspiracy theories. We've heard him speak on politics and read about his politics in his book, and we know some people he was mingling with, I could guess, you could say, at the Firm Expo and the Preparing to People Conference. And then as well as Avow, the Avow website is actually the Southern Poverty Law Center has declared the Avow website, an anti-government organization.

And Chad Dayball was writing for a vow and sharing his dreams and visions behind the paywall. So I do find it a little interesting. Again, this goes to my theory that Chad Daybell really, really, really is involved in his defense. And this is what he's told his children who still believe in him, that he's being framed. And the fact that we kind of jumped into cross into some extreme anti-government stuff, like only the government can see this tool that is used. Implying that the FBI might be framing Chad Daybell. I really do think that Chad Daybill is involved in this defense. and this is what he's telling his children, and this is what he is sharing.

Again, there's, I'm not saying, I'm talking about extreme political beliefs here, so please understand I'm not calling out anyone that is anti-government. I'm just sharing that I think that because of Chad's extreme anti-government views and the fact that John Pryor's using it makes me, once again, just realize that Chad is very involved in this, and this is what he's been sharing with people. It's not only Lori and Chad that have framed him. It's the Rexburg Police Department, Fremont County Sheriff's Office, and now,

even the FBI. Do you know how grandiose you have to be to believe or think or tell other people that you're so important that the FBI is framing you, that there's some giant government conspiracy to take you and your mistress down? Think about that for a second. That is so self-important. But so far, it ruins everything. It is a smoking gun today.

Today was a smoking gun day. You cannot explain away those peaks. Unless, of course, as I pointed out, it's only proved the devices somewhere, not the person. So I'll give the defense that. They could have thrown that out there a little bit more too. But Agent balanced made that very clear. he is saying where the devices were found,

you can decide whether or not the person was with their device when these pings and phone calls and texts happened. Hello, Hidden Jems. It's Lauren with Hidden a True Crime podcast. As a TV reporter, I learned the art of visual storytelling. So if you're like me, you enjoy listening, but also viewing. You can actually head to our YouTube channel, Hidden True Crime, to watch these interviews.

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