Hidden True Crime - CHAD DAYBELL TRIAL: Uncovering Chad's Belief System with historian Barbara Jones Brown

Episode Date: April 22, 2024

Join Hidden True Crime as we follow the Chad Daybell's trial beginning to end. Host Lauren Matthias is in the courtroom every day, doing lunch lives on YouTube and summarizing each day and week right here on Hidden: A True Crime Podcast. Barbara Jones Brown is the co-author of Vengeance Is Mine, The Mountain Meadows Massacre and Its Aftermath (Oxford University Press, 2023), about the most notorious crime in Mormon history near today's St. George, Utah. In 1857, a group of Mormon settlers massacred more than 100 men, women, and children in a California-bound wagon train: BOOK LINK Brown is the director of Signature Books, an indie publisher in Salt Lake City, Utah, which publishes thoroughly-researched books on Utah, Mormon, and Western American History. Previously she was the executive director of the Mormon History Association and historical director of Better Days 2020. Brown holds a Master’s degree in American history from the University of Utah and a Bachelor’s degree in journalism from Brigham Young University. LAUREN MATTHIAS was a television reporter for a decade, and has followed the Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell case since 2019. Lauren and her husband John Matthias, a criminal psychologist, started Hidden True Crime in 2020 with their Season: 'Beyond the Veil' a psychological deep dive into the doomsday murders and prophet.  A podcast that started at their dinner table has now turned into the dynamic husband and wife duo of Dr. John Matthias, a forensic psychologist, and Lauren Matthias, an investigative journalist, delving into the psychological facets of unthinkable crimes every week. Thank you for your support through sponsorships, subscribing, listening, and becoming at Patreon member at Patreon.com/HiddenTrueCrime Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Work from AI products. Hello, Hello, Hidden Gems. Thank you for joining

me tonight. And Barbara Jones Brown. She is a historian, an author, a publisher,

a writer. She is many things. I can't wait to introduce her to all of you tonight. It's going to be an incredible show. I am going live from Boise, Idaho,

where I've been attending every day of the Chad Daybell trial. Follow me on Hidden True Crime on this podcast as I cover the trial. I'll be going live every day at lunch and we're doing a lot of members-only lives and I just want to thank all of you again for your support while we are here.

And I want to thank Barbara for her support too. She has been someone that I have been talking to. Like I said, I am so excited to introduce her to all of you tonight. Let me read to you a little bit about Barbara. She is the co-author of Vengeance is Mine, the Mountain Meadows Massacre, and its aftermath by Oxford University Press. A 2023 book, recent publication. The link to that is in the description of this video. And if there are any mods here tonight, please share this book.

One thing we can definitely do to support Barbara as well. and her time tonight is to purchase this book and to support her incredible work and research, which you're going to learn a little bit more about tonight. So what the Mountain Meadows Massacre is about, it's a notorious crime. In Mormon history, it actually happened near St. George, Utah. We know that because of Jody Hildebrand, Ruby Frankie, and also the place where Lori Vallow and Chad Daybal met. That's St. George, Utah, a small southern Utah town. And this happened there as well, but it was actually in 1857.

And it was a group of Mormon settlers who massacred more than 100 men, women, and children. It's a heartbreaking crime. We're going to learn a little bit more about it tonight. And it was women and children, they were in a California-bound wagon train. Brown, Barbara, is also the director of signature books in indie publisher in Salt Lake City, Utah, which publishes thoroughly researched books on Utah Mormon and Western American history. I love that, by the way, Barbara, you say thoroughly research books. This is not an indie publishing company like Chad DeBos.

Not at all. Couldn't be more far from it. Couldn't be more different. Yes. She was actually also previously the executive director of the Mormon History Association and the historical director of Better Days 2020. Barbara, you hold a master's degree in American history from the University of Utah and a bachelor's degree in journalism from Brigham Young University.

Thus, we have an expert with us today with an array of knowledge, and we are going to delve a little bit more into Chad Dayball's belief system and some of his unique beliefs, because that is a question. I get all the time, it doesn't matter how many interviews I do, it doesn't matter how many crash courses I make, or how much we delve into it, there are always questions. And there's always this argument about, well, well, what's Mormon doctrine? Where does this stem from?

Zombies, portals, multiple probation. And what is completely made up? And what did Chad DeBel get from The Simpsons or Star Trek or Dungeons and Dragons? And so we're going to tackle that tonight. And so I just thank you, everyone, that is here. We already have a large crowd. Please keep this respectful tonight is my request. tonight in chat because I know that religion is a is always a fragile and delicate topic,

something that you avoid at Thanksgiving, but then you embrace here on a live YouTube show on a Saturday night. So thank you to those that are just very careful about what they say in chat. We want to respect everyone's religions, everyone's beliefs here tonight, except for Lori and Chad's, we can mock portals all we want tonight. That's fair game. So that's our plan for tonight. And I want to start, though, with Barbara sharing a little bit about herself and her interest in this historical Mormon crime and how you came Barbara to write this book, Vengeance is Mine, and your journey, because I think that's so important. Sure, absolutely.

Let me just start by saying one reason why I've really resonated with you, Lauren. We've never met in person yet, but I feel like you're my friend, good friend already, just from talking on the phone and from me watching all of your podcasts. I resonate so much with you because I see that what you're doing today is covering a modern-day crime and trying to help people understand it, come to grips with it. And you are also doing so much for the families of the victims. And that's what I've done with this crime that took place, as you mentioned, in 1857. And with these horrific crimes like this, the pain goes on, I have learned. It's intergenerational. I am working with families of victims and have become friends and reached out to descendants of the victims today. So they're

three, four generations later. And there's still pain over crimes like this. So I commend you for what you're doing. And I relate to it because I have been doing the same thing, but just with this horrible historical event. Thank you. Yes. I've done. do feel a connection with you in that sense. Thank you. So I first learned about the Mountain Meadows Massacre when I was 22, so a young woman. The massacre, as we mentioned, took place in 1857 on September 11th, kind of a notorious date, coincidentally, when a group of California-bound immigrants from Arkansas were headed in a wagon train, trailing a large herd of cattle headed towards the newest state in the nation of California to start a new life there.

They had big dreams. They were traveling mostly as young families, and there were more than 100 people that were slaughtered in this crime. They were murdered by a group of Mormon settlers in the area. It took place. St. George did not exist yet at the time. It took place about a 40-minute drive north of St. George at a place called the Mountain. Meadows. I first learned about this story, about this truly hidden crime, this historically hidden crime, as I mentioned in when I was 22. And there was a lithograph hanging on our wall.

My dad loved Mormon history things, Americana, Western American history things. And so we had all kinds of historical things around the house and hanging on our walls. And there was this 1877 lithograph that appeared in Harper's Weekly magazine or newspaper at the time that my dad had an original of and it was a fold out and it was hanging on her while. I should have sent you a picture of it, Lauren. Sorry about that. But anyways, I was looking at this lithograph and it was of a wagon train headed into a valley and it's at the bottom it said Mountain Meadows. And I'd never looked closely at it before, but this day I looked closely and I noticed that hidden in the rocks, that this 1877 artist had depicted very racialized stereotyped images of Indians that were hiding there.

They had headdresses, not at all accurate, knives in their teeth, and they're kind of sinisterly looking at this group of people going into this valley. And then it said Mountain Meadows. I asked my dad, what on earth this was about? What was the Mountain Meadows? and he told me, well, in 1857, a group of Mormon settlers in southwest Utah, with some local Native Americans participated in wiping out this wagon train of people. I was shocked to hear this. I had never heard of it before, even though I had grown up in the church.

I felt like I'd taken a punch to the gut to hear about this horrific crime. And I asked my dad how this could happen. And he says, well, we don't really know, honey. But these people were rumored to have poisoned a spring as they were traveling south, which led to the death of Indians and local settlers. And they were also reportedly bragging they had the gun that killed Joseph Smith. And my reaction was, Joseph Smith being the founding prophet of the Church of Jesus Christ of Watery Saints. So my reaction was, well, so even if they were.

had done that, even if that's true, how does that justify the mass murder of men, women, and children? And again, my dad just said, we don't really know. But so I put it, you know, in the back of my mind, and I thought someday I want to learn about this true crime. Someday I'll find out, I want to know how this could happen. Fast forward, 15 years later, I was working as a professional editor, and the man who later became my co-author of Vengeance's mind, he was working on the first book in this series called Massacre at Mount Meadows doing all this research. He had a huge team of researchers. His name is Richard E. Turley, Jr.

He reached out to me and asked me to be the editor of this first book. And as a professional editor, and again, I was wanting to someday understand how this could happen. I jumped at the opportunity. And so he hired me to edit book one, massacre at Mount Meadows. I delved into the sources. Like you, Lauren, I did all the research. research, the difference between journalism, which is what my undergraduate training was in, and history is you're just working with history, you're working with dead people, you're just

working with people who have died many years before, and looking at their sources, looking at what they wrote, looking at what they said, and digging in that way, and trying to get to the heart of how this horrific crime could happen. So I did that, and our first book came out in 2008, and we had gathered so much research, we decided we needed to do it in two volumes. And so Rick Turley asked me to be his co-author with Volume 2. I went back to grad school, got a master's in American history, so I could be a historian instead of just editing historians and co-authored that book with him that came out in 2023.

And the difference is the second book picks up where the first one left off. We do bring readers up to speed through flashback and summary, so you don't have to read book one. You don't have to read them both if you don't want to. But the second one picks up where the first one is and then goes all the way through 1877 with the execution of one of the perpetrators of the crime and the death of Brigham Young, who was Joseph Smith's successor as president of the LDS Church. And it's absolutely devastating. It's absolute tragedy. There's a few people in chats. I want to share it.

Barbara is a fact finder. She's a historian. That's what she does. You delved into this to learn facts wherever in lead. Yeah, we don't hold anything back in our book. We tell the story, warts, and all. And it's important to do that so that we don't keep repeating mistakes of the past. And so that's why it's so troubling to me when I see these modern day crimes happening

when people get into extremism and repeat these horrific crimes. And so that's why I've been so interested in these most recent crimes that you're covering, Lauren. Yeah. Thank you. And so your desire to sort of that moment, it's seeing that, seeing that lithograph,

the moment you just realized at that moment that you just couldn't let this go. I just, that resonates a lot with me because I just will never forget the first AP article about the daybell. case I will never forget the moment I read it. And it was the day it came out that there were two missing children. It was the AP wire, which I had the alerts on my phone. And I just read it and I stared at Lori Valo and Chad Dayball.

And really, I was just what is going on? And I just haven't been able to let go of it. So that moment really resonates with me too, that you just couldn't stop researching. Maybe this is the story you were born to tell, Lauren. My predecessor, a woman named Juanita Brooks, she was the first historian to publish a scholarly book about the Mount Meadows Massacre in 1950. And she said she felt like it was the story she was born to tell. I feel like Mountain Meadows is the story. I'm born to tell and tell and tell and share again.

And I just think you're doing a great job with covering it with this story, Lauren. Thank you. Well, thank you so much. And thank you for processing a lot with me. Barbara and I have had private conversations multiple times and just trying to process this together. We've sent each other research over many months. And I want to delve a little bit more into the Mountain Meadows Massacre as well, because as you point out, it was a hidden crime and it's a crime that should not be forgotten

and it's victims that should not be forgotten, whether or not, you know, the survivors of the victims generations later. And so we're going to also touch back into the. that in just a little bit as well. With the daybell case, well, let's just say this, it hasn't just been the daybell case. It's been Jody and Ruby, admittedly. It's been a bit of Tim Ballard. It's been visions of glory in that research. So in some ways, you do see a bit of a repeat, you know, a bit of a rabbit hole, would you say? In terms of like extreme thinking, With Mountain Meadows, it was, you know, there's all kinds of circumstances that led to it,

political circumstances. There was a war. It was a war atrocity. But I do see some similarities in the extremism, extreme thinking and using violence to solve your, solve your problems or get what you want. Yeah. Thinking wrongly that you're being led by God, thinking this is what God is telling you to do.

These are the right things to do, which we, of course, don't. and subscribe to that, you and I. So some similar things I see. It is, I think it is just a coincidence, but it is really striking to me that, you know, those images of the kids, the Frankie kids that were rescued. So thankfully from Jody Hildebrand's house, that is so close to where the Mountain Meadows massacre took place. It's within 30, 40 minutes.

And then, of course, Chad and Lori meeting in St. George. It's, wow. Well, not only that, but this little, the little tiny town, here's a tidbit for you, Barbara. I haven't even told you this, but the teeny tiny town where Jody Hildebray lived, Ivan's, Utah, where R escaped. Chad Daybell, the day he meets Lori Ballo, he's speaking in St. George, Utah, and he references Ivans in his speech as a gathering place. I mean, that's how oddly these places are interconnected. And then you realize that, you know, that, you know, Ruby was in Springville, which is northern Utah, as were the day bells. And it's just spring.

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That's code hidden true crime. Happy Mammoth.com for 15% off today. Weird ties, heads. I've been just kind of really obsessed about trying to understand what is relevant and what is coincidence in this. And I think honestly, let's tackle the elephant in room. The main thing that ties all these together, including the mountains, Mountain Meadows massacre is the Church of Jesus Christ.

Yeah, these were all Latter-day Saints, Mormons. Right. And that's, I think, the first tie. we need to tackle tonight honestly is and i want to ask you and that's why i have barbara here as a historian as a fact finder um to to share to help us answer these questions first off um really i think the main let's just start with what the church of jesus christ of of latter day saints what is the connection there and i think what you and i have talked about is is the latter day saints where do preppers come from i mean i think well let me let me let me go back a step these

are I think it's fair to say this right now. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is something that ties these cases together. There are also members like you and members that are shocked by these crimes. And so as you point out, there's extremism, there's radicalization, there's subgroups forming. And so that's what we're trying to tackle here. And so let's start with the, yeah, just what does it mean to be a latter- day saint and where do preppers come from because it seems like that's one thing. Let's put Mountain Meadows massacre aside because I think that's a little bit different.

But when it comes to these modern crimes that we all tackled, prepping is part of the subgroup. Right. So can we talk about that first? Is that okay? Sure. So the LDIS Church is a millennial church. And what that means is like many Christians, and this comes from the Bible, this is teachings from the Bible, that Jesus Christ will return.

to the earth again, that there will be a second coming, if you will, and that he will return later, and that he will come at the end of the earth in the latter days at the end times. And so that's where the church's name came from. It was established in 1830 by Joseph Smith. Originally, the church's name was just the church of Jesus Christ. And then not long later, they add of latter day saints to signify that these are saints, meaning saints who follow Jesus Christ. Not that they were saint-like, were perfect, anything like that, but saints who follow Jesus Christ in the latter days or in the last day. So the very concept of the last days or being a millennial believing people is in the name of the church. That's where

latter-day saints comes from. And so, yeah, so this is, it's a very Christian thing. Again, it's in the Bible believing that in Jesus Christ return, second coming. And so that has been part of LDS belief systems. In the 19th century, it was more for mainstream Mormons in the 19th century, they believed that was coming inherently. It was coming soon. It's coming immediately. Be prepared. It's coming soon. Joseph Smith was saying

it's going to come in our lifetimes. And that has continued. I don't want to say that has stopped. But that's kind of like the foundation. But like garden variety, everyday Latterty Saints, we're not running around prepping. But I will say that there is a growing within a subgroup within the larger

Latter-day St. Church, a subgroup that are, and they're called preppers, they're preparing for the latter day return. They're preparing for the return of Jesus Christ, which will be marked by, you know, destruction and the end of the earth, the earth ending. And so there, and I don't. want to say that that's not a big contingency. I mean, watching your podcast, I've learned about conferences that these folks are having and seeing, you know, they've got websites and things like that. But it's not something if you go to church on Sunday, just, you know, regular church on Sunday,

you're not sitting there talking about, oh my gosh, it's coming imminently. Let's hurry and get ready. It's just being prepared. So, and here's something interesting that came out in our book, I was reading about it. Brigham Young, when people started settling Utah in the 1850s, the latter-day states, they're violently driven out of Missouri and then violently driven out of Illinois in the 1830s and 40s. So they come all the way out to the West, and they start settling and developing the Salt Lake Valley. And so there's nothing here. The Native Americans, of course, have been here for generations, multiple tribes. But other than that, that hasn't been developed with white man's ways of developing or living.

And so they're out in the middle of nowhere for them, and they start farming, and they're just barely surviving. They're living on the ragged edge is how Oneida Brooks put it. And so we're going to start saying, okay, so that we don't starve to death, start a two-year supply of wheat and, you know, cash your grain so that if we have our crops fill next year, we'll still have this two-year supply. And that was fascinating to me to read that that started in the 1850s because then modern-day profits, more recently in the 20th century,

we're saying, we'll have a two-year supply of food. And I thought, that came from the 1850s. Most, like, so me, I don't, I don't have any kind of a food supply. Nothing. But a lot of Latter-day Saints might have a three-month food supply. just to be safe. And then, of course, when COVID hit, and everybody was like, oh, this is so good. We've got three-month food supply. But then there's- We have a room. We have like a room of toilet paper from COVID. Yeah. Then there's some that, you know, the hoarding that took place among all

Americans, frankly, or many Americans going out and buying toilet paper like crazy. Anyway, so there's some Latterty Saints that they might have a six-month supply or a year supply, but you don't hear that as much anymore, like have a two-year supply. But then there is a subgroup. of folks called prepper. I don't think that they don't consider that a derogatory term, do they? Or do they? I don't know, Chad Daybilt. No, Chad Daybilt calls himself a prepper.

Rod Melvin calls himself a prepper. So they do believe that they are preppers, yes. Okay. So they're like storing up up these supplies, looking at Jody Hildebrand's house, for example. She was stockpiling stuff. Like, that, wow. I mean, Jody Hildabrandt was stockpiling.

And I did share with our listeners that I did go into her home. And I saw the mass amount of like storage beneath her house. And to put basements in her cayenta, that cayenta. Basements in basements and basements. Right. It's just. Yes. And the rock that you have to cut through to even do a basement.

Most of those homes in that area do not have basements because of the rock that you have to cut through to make a basement. And so it was just bizarre. Yeah. that she was preparing. So one of your, one of your gems just asked, how is food storage different from preppers? And so like I mentioned, food storage is more just like, oh, just have a supply and food

on hand in case you lose your job and you come into hard times or that kind of thing. But preppers, I would say, it's folks that are storing up tents and generators and guns and ammunition and all kinds of stuff like that. That would fall more in the prepper categories. my, that's my take on it. No, I think that's a fair take. My family and I, we have, we could probably live two weeks on the food in our house, you know.

Yeah, yeah. And to those that do prepare, it's, it's smart. It's wise. You know, I'm always talking to Dr. John about how, hey, do we need more water? You know, we're in Las Vegas, you know, if something happens. Water supply, yeah. Yeah, it's always smart. It's not, but I think the reason for the prepping is interesting, too.

It's not necessary like, oh, if something really bad happens, it's, I think specifically preparing for absolute chaos and the second coming of the savior. The destruction of the earth is coming now and get ready because it's coming right now. And that's what I see when I watch the podcast and see the things that you're exploring, Lauren. But I think it's important just to point out

for garden variety, lottery saints, yeah, we're told to have food storage and be prepared for any circumstance, but the kind of stuff that some amongst our midst are doing is more just kind of like something I don't relate to if that makes sense. People, yes, people are using their entire life savings. And I actually talk to many people through my research. Many people have told me even off record.

People I don't, you know, not everyone I speak to wants to come on camera and share their story. There's a lot of shame in this. but, you know, parents, mothers who have spent their entire life savings preparing. They have nothing left, but they have a giant army tent in their garage, but, you know, no money, but they're prepared for the tent city that Chad Daybill spoke of. That's what we're referring to is this extremism. Exactly.

And I think that's so sad because that's the exact opposite of what modern day church leaders are saying. It was just like, you know, have, you know, just be prepared in case you lose your job or in case, like, a pandemic hits or, you know, whatever. might happen. So lose everything is the opposite. It's to be self-sufficient is like the reason to have food storage and be prepared is to just to be prepared for any situation, not to be destitute. That's the opposite idea behind it, I feel like. Yeah. Well, thanks for sharing that. I want to play actually, because I do think that this. This episode sponsored by Forkful.

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It's the foundation of Chad Daybell's belief system, this prepping community. And I want to share part of the speech he gave to just further understand this, that he gave the day he met Lori Ballot in St. George, where he's sort of talking about these last days and what's going to happen. I'm going to save everybody and put it on like one point. I'm going to speed it up because Chad's voices is very hard to listen to. So I'm going to speed up this and we're going to play this. And I just want you guys to kind of understand. This is what he was sharing at Lori Valo. Remember, is in the audience at this moment.

This is something that's exclusive on our channel. And like I said, I will speed it up. As we learned, his nickname is actually the slug. I don't think you know that, Barbara, but in the Madison County Jail. You did tell me that. They call him slug. So here we go. St. George, Rexberg, Manti.

I think what will happen is this group will travel from St. George, the elders of Israel to manage merge with them. Because I've seen that as kind of a bigger group. Exactly. And then they will meet at Fort Bridge or Wyoming. It's almost a historically symbolic leading place where the saints have had their army before when I had to battle Johnson's army in 1859. At that point, the leaders will come together. The coalition army will have gathered into Denver where their leaders are.

And just preparing to light out anybody who's left in the Rocky Mountains or capture them. Lori, can we pause for a minute? Yes, please. Lauren? Lauren. Yep, yep. Okay, that just blew me away what he said. He said, where the saints fought off Johnston's army.

That was 1857. So one of the conditions that led to the Mountain Meadows massacre is the president of the United States of the time. His name is James Buchanan. He believed, I won't go too deep into this, but through a series of events, he believes that the Latter-day Saints are in rebellion and that they're threatening to secede from the union. They are called Utah Territory at the time, but the Lattery Saints are practicing polygamy, which is not in line with American standards of monogamy. And also there's a growing theocracy in that Brigham Young is not only the president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Lattery Saints, again, he's the immediate successor to Joseph Smith.

He's also the governor of the territory. And so the president believes there's concern, and he sends out a new, new governor to replace Brigham Young. He's been told that the Mormons might rebel and they might kill the new governor, so you better send out an army with them. So he sends out 2,500 troops to Utah. Brigham Young and the Latter-day Saints, from their perspective, they, again, have been violently driven from Missouri and Illinois in just the past decade or two. They freak out. They're like, we don't want troops coming and occupying our territories. And so they decide that they're going to resist these approaching troops. And the leader of that army, his name was Albert Sidney Johnston.

And that is what Chad Table is talking about. So those troops come out in 1857 and the Latter-A-Saints are trying to do everything they can to keep the troops out of their territory. Political conflict ultimately leads in this heated environment of war hysteria, the Mountain Meadows Massacre, occurs. Wow. Yeah. So I like that just kind of shook me right there when Chad Dable says, oh, well, this is where the Saints resisted Johnston's army. That's what he's talking about. He's talking about the 1857 Utah war again, and Mountain Meadows was an atrocity that happened in the context of that war. And this is why I have you on. And this is why I have you on. Thank you. And that's why I want to

okay. And feel free to talk over this and tell me to pause whenever. We'll just keep playing this for a bit. Okay, thank you. Merge for Rocky Mountains and take care of the coalition and be a spiritual powerhouse. And when people say, well, when they read my books, it's like, well, that wrapped up really quick. But in reality, that's what's going to happen. They will be so strong and prepared that the coalition, of course, is that remain will not have any way to stop them. And we'll also have spiritual warriors on the other side. I see them is modern day, sons of Heelman.

I met a lot of them. I know their mission. They sense it. And that's right around us at this time. Do you want to talk about the sons of He was? Yes, yes. Close caption said, Sons of Human, but yes, please talk about the sons of Heelman.

So the Sons of Heelman, that is a story from the Book of Mormon, which is, so Latter-day Saints believe in the Bible, and they also believe, in the Book of Mormon, which they believe is another testament of Jesus Christ. And there is a story in there about the sons of Heelman. These are young men who fight for the liberty of the people. They stand up and fight for freedom and liberty of people in their... In the book of Mormon. Yeah, yeah.

For liberty. Young men who are going to fight these wars today, they're the modern-day sons of Heelan. And that's where he's getting that. Yes. And we even, well, yeah, I won't go there. Exactly. We have Arnold Freeberg paintings of these young stripling warriors. They're called fighting for the title of liberty or for freedom.

So in other words, just to like, just to explain in very basic terms what's going on here, because we know that Chad Daybill is hard to listen to. And he's talking in lingo that many are not understanding. He is sharing what's going to have. happened in the last day. It's all the calamities, all everything that's happening, how we're going to go through St. George. And he's explaining all these historical things that it's going to be just like this. And now he's bringing up that that like the saints of today, the people in that room are going to be like the sons of Heelman and the Book of Mormon warriors fighting, protecting in the last.

For the liberty of this land, for the liberty of the United States today. This is very political. This is a very political. Very political. Can I, I know we don't want to be political on the show too much, but if I could share a little bit of context, when Utah Senator Mike Lee recently, he was campaigning for Donald Trump in the 2020 election, and he was speaking in Arizona, where a lot of Latin States live, and he got up and he said, Donald Trump is like Captain Maronai. And for those who are in LDS, Captain Moronai was the leader of these young stripling warriors. He was the leader of these young sons of healmen, as they were called, who were fighting for liberty.

So that's where, that's what, that was like a dog whistle that Senator Lee used to encourage Mormons, I believe, to vote for Trump in Arizona. Well, let's just go a little bit further. And John D. Lee is who? Oh, yeah. So Senator Mike Lee is the great, great, great grandson of John D. Lee, who was one of the leading perpetrators of the Mountain Meadows massacre. Now, I want to be careful. No one alive today is responsible for the massacre. And just because Senator Lee's ancestor was responsible for the massacre, I don't want to say, well, that is on Mike Lee. But it is interesting, I think, that he is the direct descendant of. one of the leading perpetrators of this atrocity. Right. He is not responsible for it.

But when you brought up Mike Lee, I thought, well, that's interesting because, yes. Yeah, it all ties back in, doesn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't be able to drill down. So we worry a lot about missionary work right now.

But reality, it's just going to explode. The people that are living here, once the war is over, the Californians and Nevada and all those. They don't just look at our examples and let's be like this woman. He's so happy and we'll be stronger than ever. We have the myth that we'll all travel to New Jerusalem,

but that's not the case. New Jerusalem. Her president Nelson announced Washington, Utah, didn't he? Well, so New Jerusalem is the very thing that Chad DeBell states that he's going to form with Lori Valo that they're going to gather the saints of 144,000. Yes, in Rexburg, Idaho, right?

Yes, in Rexburg, Idaho. Well, and right now he's announcing Washington, Utah, which is also St. George, Utah, but Rexburg, Idaho is the New Jerusalem. So he's bringing that up. Okay. Anything else you want to say about New Jerusalem, Barbara? Anything else? And about Washington.

Again, this is all tying in. It's crazy. But so Joseph Smith, he said when he was, you know, the president and the prophet of the church, he said that the New Jerusalem, or Zion, the new Zion would be built in Independence, Missouri. That didn't happen, of course. Again, the saints were violently driven from Missouri by their neighbors, their counter local Missourians who were already there eventually. And then Chad just said, well, it's not going to be in Missouri. That's a fallacy. It's going to be here in Utah. And then here, this is so fascinating.

He's talking about how the president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Lari Saints today, his name is President Russell M. Nelson. And Chad said, speaking in 2018, he said, recently President Nelson announced that a temple, an LDS temple is going to be built in Washington, Utah. That hit me, is what Chad just said. Well, guess what? Washington, Utah did exist in 1857. it was the precursor to St. George. It's now just kind of a suburb of St. George, Utah. And Washington, Utah is where about a dozen or so Mormons who participated in the

Mountain Massacre, they came from Washington, Utah, and went up to the Mountain Meadows. And we can get into this later, but about seven or so years ago when I was doing research on my genealogy, I discovered I had an ancestor who, participated in the Mounted Meadows Massacre. He had just recently moved to Washington, Utah. Oh, my goodness. So again, I think I don't even know if Chad knows that some of the perpetrators of the crime came from Washington, Utah.

But there's another coincidence there. It's, yeah, it all goes back to the same thing as extremism and radicalization. I think that's maybe the one thing we're connecting here. Yeah. that new temple will be the center of a city of life so the Washington in Rexburg where you have the Rexford temple and you have Rexford but there's a smaller town

of Ashton about 25 miles north and that's where their temple will be and that will be their city of life and I hadn't been here for five years ago because I came off the freeway there was two locations and yesterday

it's fair it was so powerful he's crying now It's like I can see the tent cities. Ted cities. We really don't understand how wonderful it's going to be in a difference we're going to make in people's lives. Okay. Go ahead, Lauren. Well, I just want to point out tent cities is a big part of Chad Daybell's belief system and Lori Ballo.

He said one of their missions is to establish these tent cities, these white tents, these army surplus tents. And it's something I want to talk to Barbara about because I don't necessarily, believe that this is actually Latter-day Saint doctrine. I wish there's a way, but when we're talking, we can make this bigger, by the way. Let's see here. Nope, there you are.

I don't know, guys. Okay. Like, again, garden variety, everyday Latter-D saints are like 10th cities. What are you talking about? Again, I know there's a large prepper movement that we understand this, but I'm just saying for most of us,

I'm just like, what is he talking about? you know, tent cities. Yeah. Kent cities. Yeah. And he's referring to meeting in Rexberg, met Rexburg being the New Jerusalem. And at this moment, too, he states something, well, let me bring it actually back up so you can see the, to see the, the closed captions here. He's, Chad says that they're essentially going to be there and it's, you don't, guys don't even know the difference that we're going to make in people's

life. So there's this grandiosity. Like, we're going to say people, we're going to be, you know, know, these saviors essentially. So the grandiosity is there. I want to point out. Of course, Jesus Christ is going to return to Rexburg, Idaho to establish that's where Chad is. Right. Right. Exactly. Rexberg. Who cares about the Vatican? Rexberg. Who cares about Israel or Jerusalem or the Vatican or all these other, you know? Yeah. Chad is making himself the center of the universe. So of course that's where Jesus is going to come. It's going to come to where Chad is, you know. And, For those that want to understand all of this, I have done research into the tent cities and where that came from and this idea of a call out.

I have that in the crash course, the Chad Daybill crash course. The link is in this video as well. And I do take that back to Roger K. Young, who is the founder of the website of Vow. I won't go into that much more because that takes us down a whole of the rabbit hole. But for those that want to understand, the crash course is a great way to start. So you will be your part of that. All of these people will be a part of it. He's playing on people's emotions.

For example, just the mix of people, just every nationality, the race will be here and they'll work in harmony. This is a painting by Karen Guthrie, and I think I found the right painting. I did this, though. And we are going to build structures that you will believe. Yeah. I believe the 10 tribes have great gifts that we know of our stand and visions of war. Yeah. So, 10 tribes.

Ironically, look what picture came up. So this does have its roots in Mormon doctrine. Again, Joseph Smith, the first prophet of the church, said that Jesus Christ would return to where the Latter of Saints were there in Missouri and set up this modern day New Jerusalem or Zion. In fact, those who are interested, Zion National Park is named that because of the Latterty of St. Belief in Zem. This episode is sponsored by Garden.

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That's m-y-g-r-d-y-n.com. Garden, harvest happiness. Modern-day Zion. So that does have it, you know, that all people would gather to Zion in the latter days when Jesus Christ comes again, and that the lost tribes of Israel that are spoken about in the Bible, they will all return and that the earth will be renewed. And that's kind of what you see, I think, in this Visions of Glory cover is like looking

like a millennial earth. The earth will be renewed. Yeah. Okay. And Janelle Murphy, who is here tonight, she actually attended these conferences. She knew Chad and Tammy and many of the people in the inner circle. And Janelle is saying that Chad was teaching that after all the earthquakes and different catastrophes, there would be many who had come from the eastern U.S.

and traveled by way of railroad to come to Rexburg. So Janelle being here tonight, anything she's stating just so you know who she is, everyone in chat. Thank you, Janelle. And you know so much more about this than I do. So thank you for your comments. And I think Chad just did say also that after this great war, that people, you know, the Gentiles, the sinners from California, Nevada, they'll all come up to Utah and then up

to Rexburg, you know, to be gathered in Zion, which will be the only safe. place anymore. And that has roots in LDS history, historical belief, early LDS belief, too, that only Zion will be the only safe place anymore and everybody will come to Zion. Yeah. And clearly we're about to jump into visions of glory. And I actually think I was going to stop it before this, but let's keep it going. So just, you know, so people know he's just going to jump into, I just did the B-roll for this. All we got with the audio from somebody on their cell phone. So I am the one that did all the the visuals to kind of help people. So he's just going to jump into not understanding.

So Spencer's description and visions of glory. So we're about to jump into that really quick. Let's just keep it going for a second. Or he talks about how they can just mold rock. Like a tree and tell it to be a chair, something like that, and the tree will obey. And so as the 10 tries return with these gifts, we will build these cities quickly and magnificently.

In my book, living on the Hedge of Heaven, it's an autobiography. I tell a few more of my experiences that I won't tell today. But I wanted to just testify that I know President Nelson has been preserved for this time. I'm not sure why. That's the prophet of the church. During President Monson's time. Past profit. Drew Alder and didn't speak as much.

That's kind of when I felt that I should publish a lot of books, Hector's book, Julie Roe's books. We had our season. almost, where we helped people prepare. A lot of people rejected that message. Those that accepted it are going to be the leaders as we move forward. And now President Nelson, as he begins this change in the truth. So it sounds like, and again, I don't know a lot about the prepper movement. I didn't start learning all about this until more recently.

But it's a growing movement. It can become dangerous. think most prevers are dangerous or anything like that. They're not committing crimes, like, you know, as far as Chuck. And Lori took it, of course, of course not. But, and I don't agree with those crimes. But it seems like all of these books being published. It's like they're making money. They're gaining influence. The people that are writing these books, they're getting followers. And I think they start feeling special. And Chad is, um, he's making his followers feel special.

And that's kind of something that I've noticed with cult groups across the board. They seem one way they gain followers is to make their followers feel like they're special or they have special knowledge or unique knowledge. And we know that that's certainly what Chad did with Lori to suck her in was to tell her she was literally a goddess, you know, stuff like that. So well, and just remember this. Lori is sitting in the audience right now. to this.

Yeah, listening to this. She is sitting here, listening to this entire thing, and she's already been engulfed in sort of this prepper movement, reading books, reading Chad's books. So you have to picture, like, she's listening to this speech in the audience. He later says in his love story, his infamous Loing Fire love story, that as he's giving a speech, he feels like she was the only one truly paying attention to every word he's saying.

And that is this speech. So, yeah. You know, I think that gives a good, well, let's just see what continues and then we can go because what he doesn't talk about. Well, let's just keep going for a second. Those that are prepared in a way, just latch right on. And I want you to know that's where I'm at. I'm just latching on to hold on to that 94-year-old hotel. Hotel.

And elder oaks and elder iring, of course, I don't know if many of you know, but Elder Iring's son, I can read J-Iring. and is the president of BYU. Okay, so I think where he goes from here, yeah, this is a good place to stop. But I think what he's saying is, if you are ready, you will latch on. So it is. It's very manipulative. If those that are ready and willing and spiritual enough, you will latch on. And then, of course, now he's about to name drop leaders to validate.

He's going to bring up the president of BYU, Idaho, who is in Rexburg as Henry B.I.I. And that's where it goes. So he's name dropping. Go ahead. I think we should point that out. So these last few men names that he's named are leaders in the LDS church. And so it's almost like he's saying, yeah, I'm out here being fringy, saying all this stuff. But guess what?

Like, I follow these mainstream true leaders of the church. You know what I mean? It's kind of like trying to make it safe for like what he's saying. But we should point out he is using their names. He is dropping their names to make it sound like he's, you know, right in line with the leaders of the church. church. Yes. Yes. And so we'll, we'll, we'll end it there for anyone that wants to listen to that entire speech. It is on our, um, channel. So thank you. I didn't tell you that I was going to play that. But as I was preparing, I was like, well, he explains what he believes. He also just, you know,

he goes into, Chad Dayball goes into his near death experiences in that speech. We actually gave this speech to, um, Netflix director, Skyborgman, who actually used that in, uh, sins of our and he talks about his dive into the lake where he says his veil separated from his, I don't know, he talks about it in a very tangible way. Maybe veil is something we can talk about too. But before we go there, just to conclude the prepping thing, Isabel, thank you so much. She states, where do LDS leader say the prepping is only for hard times rather than for end days? Thank you for this episode.

And that's a great question because they don't, that's true. They don't say it's just for hard times. Do you want to answer that, Barbara? Well, so again, it starts with in the 1850s where Brigham Young is saying have a two-year supply because they're in case there's crop failure. And that was a very real need at the time when you're just settling a new area. It's hard for us to understand, but like there's no easy food supply. There's no grocery stores of course. There's nothing.

You are literally depending on the farming. You're doing a living off the land. So that's the earliest I can see it in LDS Church history is in the 18. 50s, Brigham Young, after the latter states have recently come to the Salt Lake Valley, and they start settling it. And then you see it kind of passing down, you know, again, that two-year supply, have a two-year supply ready just in case for emergencies and so forth. And then even the church has what's called self-preparedness, you know, stressing the importance of being self-prepared. So they stress having 72-hour kits, meaning if there was an earthquake, which is a very

real threat here in where I live in Utah along the Wasatch Front. There could be a big earthquake and they have a 72 hour kit so that you can, if there's an earthquake, you've got some water and you've got some food that you could survive for three days until, you know, help comes, that kind of a thing. So, and being self-prepared in terms of making sure you have savings and you have a 401 cat, you know, you're just preparing so that you never, that you're self-reliant. and so forth. And that's the, that's kind of the mainstream, the way mainstream LDS are practicing. And again, preppers can be mainstream. There's like a spectrum. I don't know how to explain it. And there's a growing prepping, prepping movement. But the preppers are more, I feel like,

preparing for this end of times disaster. We're going to go out and live in tent cities. And Jesus is coming immediately. So there's, there's a difference there, if that makes sense. I hope that I answered your question. It does. It does make sense. And by the way, Brandy says, I really think Chad and Jody had some of the same friends. You are absolutely right. We have tied quite a few people to them that are similar.

It's odd. So it's a sort of growing subgroup of people. And there are different spectrums. I thank you for sharing that. I went to one of these fair expos and I met some very kind, very sincere people. So we're not putting all of these people that are prepping and preparing for the last days into this murderous cold. No, not at all.

I don't think most preppers are criminals, of course. I'm not saying that. I think then there's a sub-groups are forming within the prepper movements that do become dangerous. Chad and Lori, Jody and Ruby being some examples of that. And that's some folks do become dangerous. Yeah. So some of the things Chad Daybill does talk about in this speech,

are again his near-death experiences, which is a big part of this prepping community, everybody sharing these near-death experiences, his visions. Seeing beyond the veil, the veil is, you know, sort of this idea of why we can't remember where we came from or where we're going or can't see into the heavens, but Chad Daybell claims his veil is ripped. It's like a thing that a brain surgeon can allegedly put back together for him. It's so, just such a tangible, literal thing to Chad, which is not what I was necessarily taught how the LDS. Any thoughts about that, this idea of a veil?

Because Chad Dable sort of thinks it's a very real fabric, piece of fabric that can be ripped. Well, I think it's very much in LDS theology, the veil. So Lattery Saints believe that before we came, before we were born on this planet, on this earth, that we lived as spirits, and we are spirit children. We are literally children of God. we're his spirit children and that we lived with him in a pre-existence and that when we are born,

we come to families on this planet. And the reason why we can't remember that pre-existence, as Latterty Saints call it, is because there's a veil, a veil over our mind so that we forget, you know, what was happening before. And we can't see into the afterlife. So Latterty Saints believe that when we die, our spirits leave our bodies and our spirits return to the God who originally gave us life. We go through the veil. And so as I understand it, what I've been learning is Chad believed if you, and some of

these other followers, Julie Roe and others believe that if you have a near-death experience where you die and you kind of come back, that your veil has been ripped and you can see into the next life and you can't have visions. and you can see things that just marimorals other people can't see. Okay. So in other words, the veil is a part of LDS theology,

but Chad took it to the, and Julie Rowe kind of took it to the next level by saying this is something that can be ripped, thus I'm a visionary, just like a prophet or anything else. And that is not recognizable to Garden, like are veils being ripped?

to us or we can have visions. Like that's like I had never heard of. Okay. Yeah, fair enough. But that does have some foundation in LDS theology. So that veil is LDS. Things he doesn't mention in this speech, which I find really interesting because Chad Dable is absolutely believing these things

at this time. Do you think he's actually believing them or do you think he's preaching them to manipulate people? Well, I have that as a question for you that starts. Someone asked you that. So maybe we could talk about it. I go back and forth, just to you know, and where I'm laying right now, where I am right now,

and I am so willing, this is an opinion that has probably been the most up and down opinion of mine. It could change tomorrow. But where I am right now is I believe that Chad did believe it, but that he knew he was lying, but he lied so much he believed it. And where I've come to that. Yeah. And where I've got, where that comes from. I do believe that he believed in the church of Jesus Christ,

of Lattery Saints. I do believe, okay, so you believe that. I believe he believed that. So if he believes in the veil and he believes in Revelation and he believed in visions and he believed in the last days, which is all the stuff we're talking about right now, what's LDS, what isn't? So if he believed in this foundation and he's now with these sort of extremists and he's being radicalized or he is radicalizing others too, at what point did he stop?

believing it. And so was he BSing it? And then he just started to believe that, oh, maybe I am a visionary. So now I'm starting to feel like he did believe it, but where are you? Where are you? Well, you're not where I am. Well, we're just speculating here. So I'm just wearing, you know, I'm taking off my historian's hat or my former journalist had and just, it was just me, Barbara, talking. Yeah. This is just us. We just put back the side for a second. We're speculating his friend. I think, definitely he was a true believer in. them, you know, Church of Jesus Christ's Lattery Saints. I think he

has a hard time providing for his family. He has a hard time making money. He starts this little press with his wife, Tammy. And he starts seeing Julie Rowe, who he's publishing, and she's selling a lot of books, right? She's making some money, I think,

by claiming she's had near-death experiences and making some wild claims. And he starts seeing she's pretty successful. She's got some followers, and he's like, huh, I want to make some money. Because his family members have always said, if I'm right, they never heard him talk about him having a near-death experience until after Julie

Roe. And then all of a sudden, Chad's like, ah, I had near-death experiences. And he starts writing books and making these claims. And then he starts making a little money off it. He starts getting some followers. And I think he's like, ah, okay, this is the way I get some money. and power. And ultimately, sex.

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I have confirmed with people that Chad did indeed have those experiences where he got hit by a rogue ocean wave. That's one of his experiences. And jumping off with the guys. But nobody ever remembers him saying, oh, and by the way, my veil just ripped. Nobody. So while the experiences are real, him relating to them to a near-death experience did not happen until after, as you point out, Julie Roe made him a little bit wealthier. Well, and exactly. And do you remember Lori Vallow's talk when after she was sentenced? How can you forget?

She had a near-death experience when she gave birth to Tiley. And her family said she'd never ever said that before. for and all of a sudden she's having near death experiences. Correct. Correct. And visions of glory, just to remind people is Spencer, a man named Spencer, having near death experiences as well. This was a big part of this group. So maybe we can go there too.

Actually, that's the question I have for you, Barbara, because I haven't found the answer. I think near death experiences are probably a Christian thing. They're definitely not, they're definitely a non-denominational thing in religion. But what about near death? experiences specifically in the LDS faith? Are they a big thing? I had never really heard of them until this case. Yeah, I don't think they're a big thing, but they're definitely there. So going back to what I was saying about LDS theology, Lattery Saints believe that after we die, our spirits leave our body and return to God. They go on to the afterlife. And so there

is a belief that sometimes when you are really near to death, maybe you're almost on the brink of death. You almost go there, but you don't. share an experience of my own father, he shared. So my father flatlined in his 50s. He had a serious heart attack. Fortunately, my mom had just run him to the emergency room, but they did the paddles on his chest, you know, to bring him back. 15 minutes, he was flatlined, but he came back. This wasn't a belly flop, in other words. This was no belly flop. A heart attack. He had a heart attack. Flatline, exactly. And a stroke. That's right. real. Yeah. Gosh. That's real. That was science. But he did say, he told us later, he said,

I had the impression that I was like on that brink that I could either go on, I could die, I could go on, or I could stay and I could stay back with my family and not go on and that he had a choice. And he's, my dad said he had the impression that he made the choice to stay, to stay with his family, stay with us. And that, um, people on the other side of the veil. So his ancestors, people who have gone before, applauded his choice to come back. So that's like in my own family. But did my dad say, oh, I went on and I saw all this stuff.

And now I'm a visionary. And I know. So but yeah. But do latter of saints believe that, you know, that you could have experiences like that? Sure. Yeah, absolutely. But are they like, do you go to Sunday school and people? are preaching those kinds of things.

No, you're just talking about those kinds of things with your loved ones maybe. But, you know, is it being preached by church, you know, mainstream top church leader? No. No. And you don't come back as a visionary because you had a near-death experience. But I will say in church history, if you look at church history, like 19th century, church history, for example, you will see some people in church history talking about having experiences where they like talk with ancestors.

or a relative that has passed on and comes back to the Brigham Young, for example, he says that Joseph Smith, after Joseph Smith is assassinated, that Joseph Smith comes and talks to Brigham Young ones. Okay. So that's real. That's LDS theology. So there you go. So there is a foundation then in some LDS beliefs.

Yeah. And then be taken to the next level. They are then taken to an extreme. So when Chaz was like, okay, then our veils are ripped and therefore we can see anything in predict the future and all that stuff. that's like going beyond mainstream. Right. Just showing how you can take a base,

a foundation of something that's part of religion and radicalize it. Take it to extreme. Thank you. And this is exactly what I wanted you to do. The question I always get, and I can see that we have over 3,000 people in chat right now. So clearly this is a question I always get is,

what has its base in LDS theology and what is completely made up out of his brain, you know, and I've always said chat doesn't have an original thought. So you're really helping us kind of understand what happens. So here are the things he doesn't talk about in that speech. But we know that he believed because multiple mortal probation or reincarnation with a twist. And it was at this conference, this speech was at the conference where he used that pickup line on Lori. And he said, hey, there, you and I were married in a past life. So we know he's believing in it.

And it seems to be like sort of like I've kind of I believe in that I think he's using it to manipulate You're hot I yeah you used to be my life yeah But I think she believed I think she believed it Hook line of sinker Well let you know one thing I've been You know I've been to one of these conferences

Prepary to people no longer exist Well it's been rebranded but the FermExpo still exists And that's where Melanie Gibb and David Warwick were the night J.J. Valo was killed was at a firm Expo. So I went to a firm Expo, Book of Mormon Evidence Conference. It's not LDS sponsored. I went a lot of preppers. And I will say that I thought I was going to go in there and learn that all these people believed in multiple motor probation. They didn't necessarily, but some of them did. Some of them absolutely did. And so I kind of compare it to like the secret menu on the in and out burger

menu. You know, but you're like like at the in crowd, like you go up, you're like, I'm going to take my burger animal. And it's not on the menu. You're like, I'm on the inn. In and now. I know my in and now. I'll have a question. Exactly. If any of you don't know what in and out is, those are all the secret menu terms. Yeah. For those that are in the United States, we have a lot of overseas listeners.

So, yeah, it's a burger joint, password burger joint in the U.S. And they have a secret menu. And their secret menu is printed nowhere. You just know. You're just on the in crowd. Yeah, you're the in crowd. Yeah. So it's like multiple mortible probation.

Only you and I know about that, you know. Right. There is no, there is no speaker at these conferences talking necessarily about multiple mortal probation very openly. It seems like it's sort of an underground, but a lot of people, a lot of these preppers and a lot of this, this group that we're talking about believe in multiple mortal probation. So this is, I just have to ask you, like, I've interviewed Eric Smith about it. I've Doug D.

What can you tell us about multiple mortal probations and the theology of the LDS Church? Before I begin, let me just explain for people new to this. Multiple motor probation is living again and again as different people. It's not totally reincarnation because you don't come back as a plant or an animal. You always come back as another person and an important person too. So go ahead. Or maybe you're not an important person in this life, but you sure is heck. were in previous lives. You were really important before. Yes. Okay. So we talked a little bit about,

you know, latter of saints called the plan of salvation. So before we came to this earth, we were living in spirits. We were children of God, living with God in a pre-earth life. All of us are brothers and sisters. And, you know, Jesus was there. We were all there in this pre-earth life. And the plan was that we would, God's plan was we would come to this planet and gain mortal bodies and be tested while we're here on this earth. And if we live worthy and prove ourselves, we can return to live with God again in our spirits and as families after we die. So the time that we're here on earth is called a probation, or in other words, a test, if you will, but it's called a mortal, when we're all living as mortals, when we can die,

a mortal probation. So Latter-Distate theology is that there's just one, mortal probation. We come here once. There's not this reincarnation coming back over and over and over again. So for me, and again, for most Latterty Saints, when we hear like Chad's teachings about multiple mortal probations, we're like, what I'm just talking about? That's like completely unrecognizable. But being a historian, so being a historian, I dug into this. I'm like, where is this coming from? And, um, I found, I was stunned to find this, but there was a man named Orson F. Whitney, who eventually becomes an apostle in the church later after he denounces his belief in reincarnation.

But there's this little group in the 1880s of Latter-day Saints in Utah, and they believe in reincarnation. And it's our French group. And they don't call it. They don't call it multiple mortar probation. I don't know where that comes from, Lauren. You know more about that than me because that's a modern term. But they do call it reincarnation. And this little French group, they believe that there's not just one time we're here on this earth,

but that we do come back again and again to be tested again and again. And not only on this planet, but on other planets as well. So I had never heard of this. And again, I'm a historian of Mormon history. And this was a new one that took me by surprise. So this little fringe group, it existed in the 1880s, and it was started by a man named Charles W. Stainer. He started this idea, and he gets some fringe followers.

And he has these preaching reincarnation. And he says he starts assigning people names in his fringe group of who they were and their prior mortal probation. And just like Chad Daybell, the names he's assigning people, they all used to be these leaders in the Bible, biblical times, leaders in the Mormon. And not only that, he says one of them, this, again, this is the 1880s, he says one of them used to be George Washington. They're all like used to be very important. Very important. No one's a slave. No one's a pauper.

It's just really Joan of Arc, George Washington. Washington. Okay. And like Isaiah and Peter from the Bible. And I mean, they're just assigning all these people who they used to be. So it makes these people in this little fringe group feel like, I am so important. I used to be. And they buy into it, including the young Orson F. Whitney. And why this is stunning is because Orson F. Whitney, he's like a leader. He's a growing. he's growing in his esteem among church leaders. He's very smart. He's the editor of the church's newspapers. Oh, wow. He's up there. He is smart.

Yeah, that's the thing. He's smart. This isn't just like some side guy. He's smart. Okay, he's in. This thing. And he's being considered by the, so in the LDS Church,

the ruling body is the first presidency. That's the president of the church and two counselors. So those three, and then the quorum of the 12 apostles, there's 12 of them. So the ruling body, the most powerful leaders in the church, there are 15 men. So those 15 men are looking at Orson F. Whitney because they think, oh, maybe we should make him an apostle. So every time somebody in the quorum of the 12 dies, that's when a new person is brought in. They ask a new person to come in. And they're looking at Orson F. Whitney, and they say, he's got some weird beliefs.

And they're like, he's really smart and capable and we like him. But he's kind of out there. And he's, he's involved in this fringe group. And again, this is the 1880s. History repeats itself. This sounds so familiar. Yes. And so there were like, we're not going to, we're not going to ask him to be an apostle.

Like, maybe he'll change. So eventually, Orson F. Whitney, he's called to be the assistant church historian. And he's going through some documents, some church. documents and he finds out that this Charles W. Stainer, who sucked him into this little fringe group, he finds out that Stainer is admitting he's a fraud. And he figures out that Stainer was a fraud and he said, this is in his journal, Orson F. Whitney, in his journal he says, oh, I gave him $6,000 of my money. And the 1886,000 was a lot. And Whitney is like, he realizes, oh, I was taken in. I was taken by this guy. He renounces this fringe group.

He's ashamed, actually, that he was sucked in. He feels shame over it. He writes about a lot of his writings. You can see it in his journal. But he was here. He renounces it. He's embarrassed to it. He was ever taken in by it.

And then later, he was called as an apostle in the LDS church and becomes a top church leader. So even an apostle was taken by this guy, teaching. Well, he wasn't an apostle yet. He was a young man. He was in his 20s. he was sucked in. He was 25 when he was sucked in by this group. But the Stainer guy, he's just like Chad Daybill. And I wondered if Chad read the same information I did when I was just doing this research online and found all this. I wondered if Chad was like, oh, the Stainer guy, he was pretty

successful. He got a following. He got money. This is how he did it. He claimed Stainer claimed to have visions. He claimed to be, he was going to be the future president of the church. someday. He claimed to be able to see all these things. And Stainer was the one who was telling everybody who they were in prior lives. Stainer said he himself had been the Holy Ghost. No, he said the Orson of Whitney had been the Holy Ghost or the Holy Spirit of the Trinity. That is Chad Daybill. Chad said he was it. So it was this. On another planet too. On another planet. This French group from the 1880s was so similar to Chad Daybill. I wondered if he read about this and got his playbook from it and was thinking, oh, it worked in before, I'll do it again.

And it was working for Chad. He got a small following. And yeah. So this is a fringe group. They never, they, I couldn't find, maybe I didn't find it yet, but they didn't say anything about, well, I used to be married to you, therefore I can have an affair with you. There was nothing about that that I could find in the records so far.

But, and they didn't commit crimes other than maybe stain or defrauded people of money. But they weren't, you know, violence to what I could see. Fascinating. Fascinating. For those wondering, multiple mortal probationes rather than reincarnation, probation comes from scriptures in the Bible and the Book of Mormon, where it refers to this life being a probationary state, a time to prepare to meet God.

So probationary state is this time on earth. thus multiple mortal probations means you come to earth to prepare to meet God more than once. And yes, Julie Roe and Chad Daybell and many of those took that. And Eric Smith, you know, I have an interview with Eric and he wrote a book called Multiple Mortal Probations. Yeah, that was a big part of disbelief. Past life's spouses, et cetera, et cetera. But I want to make clear that in the 1880s, this exact same group that was saying all the same thing, They were disciplined by church leaders.

They were saying, you have to renounce this. This is not what we believe. And they even said, this is of the devil, what you're preaching. This is of the devil. So what happened to Stainer then? He was excommunicated or? Keep learning more. But yeah, he was disciplined by what is called a state president,

which is like his local leader. And there was what we call a church council today. And he was disciplined and told, you must renounce all this. And this is of the devil. And Stainer says he does. does, but secretly he keeps on going with it. But anyway, so church leaders were very much against this, saying this is not our theology. Interesting.

I wonder if Chad read that part. Maybe he didn't. Well, if he did, again, that's why I just think, I think he knew what he's doing personally. What about zombies? And let's, let's preface zombies with where it starts is possession, which is. Christian, you know, maybe we can start there. And possession in LDS theology is certainly in. So we're going to jump to zombies in a second.

I'm not dismissing the term zombies, everyone. I'm trying to start, though, because I feel like the foundation of Chad Daybell zombies starts with the idea of possession, which is a Christian biblical belief. Can you explain LDS theology when it comes to possession or evil spirits and then maybe the idea of zombies? Or? Yeah, so zombies is a term that Lattery Saints would not at all recognize. So again, when we hear zombies, people are like, you know, garden variety of lighty

Saints, what zombies? What are you talking about? And I really think that, I don't even think preppers use zombies. I think that was Chad's little group using that term. But the concept of evil spirits is absolutely in Christian theology. It's all through the Bible and it's also absolutely LDS theology. So it's cozy season and nothing. compares to wrapping yourself in a Minky Couture blanket.

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Latter-day Saints believe that in the pre-earth life that I was talking about, that among the hosts of heaven is what we call them, all of these spirit children, spirit children of God, all of whom we were, we were a spirit person before we came and entered our bodies on this earth, that God presented a plan that he would give us the choice once we came to this planet to choose for ourselves right from wrong and we would learn and learn to become more like God, our father. And someone named Lucifer, the spirit child there, so Jesus supported that. plan, Jesus Christ. And Lucifer supported a plan. He said, no, I will make them follow this plan. I will

tell them what they have to do and they will not have agency to make their own choices. And a third of the hosts of heaven or a third of God's spirit children chose to follow Satan. Two thirds of God's spirit children chose to follow God and Jesus' plan and then came to this planet. So that's who, you know, everyone who comes and has abiding this earth life were among those spirits. So those, the third of the spirits that didn't choose that followed, who the Lucifer, who became, you know, Satan, they are the evil spirits that are on the planet, I guess. I mean, and this is unique to LDS theology. Yeah, this part is, I believe, is unique to LDS theology. So, like, Christianity believes in evil spirits and believes that people can be possessed.

Again, that comes from the Bible. But Latter-day Saints, this is like a belief that where those evil spirits came from, if you will, and they follow Satan, if that makes sense. Yeah. So we, I should say we, Latter-day Saints, I don't subscribe to all these beliefs personally myself. But Latter-day Saints believe that those evil spirits are here to tempt us. and they're here on the earth somewhere. Yeah. To clarify what you just said too, I think that's great because there are a lot of comments in chat.

I want to point out that never once has, Barbara is here as a fact finder and his story. She's ever once said, and I believe this and I believe that. So anyone trying to associate, I'm the same way. I'm a journalist. You state what theology is, but for anyone that's trying to pinpoint or ask, she is here to just relay the facts. So her personal beliefs, you know, you can email her and ask her later. But that's not why we're here. Yeah.

So I'm here to share, you know, all of LDS theology and history that I can based on my knowledge. But everything that I'm sharing, I don't necessarily personally subscribe to. There you go. Thank you. So anyway, so just like, again, in Christianity, I'm remembering the movie, The Exorcist. that came out in the 1970s. I don't know if some of you remember that, but it was where an evil spirit possessed a child, right?

And a Catholic priest was called to exercise the devil out of that, or that evil spirit out of that child. I remember that it was a terrifying movie when I was a child. I never saw it. I just saw the ads for it, and it terrified me. But anyway, so that kind of a thing. So have, yeah, so that is part of LDS theology. do

Larry Saints believe that children are being possessed by evil spirits and then therefore they have to be killed to get the spirit? That's Chad and Lori or Jody and Ruby were like you got to abuse the heck out of these kids to get the spirits out of them. That's not, that is not mainstream.

That is criminal and that is really taking the belief that there are evil spirits in the earth in the extreme. Yeah, and I want to say this and add to that. I was like, you know, with you, I agree. It was Chad and Lori. In fact, Chad even stated that Charles was breaking eternal law when they did an exorcism, which exorcism, I don't know how familiar that is in LDS,

theology. They wouldn't perform an exorcism. And Charles's evil spirit remained in him. And I think that was a way of Chad even saying like, yeah, this isn't your typical run-of-the-mill doctrine. but he's breaking eternal law. But I also want to point out, too, that I used to say, oh, this was just chatting Lori.

This is wild, the idea that children can be possessed with evil spirits and you kill them. But I do want to point out the fact that Ruby and Jody have done this to children. I'm not going to just say that this was just some random run of the mill thing. I'm not going to reject and deny this. I'm going to work to find out what's going on. And I think that's one reason I'm staying so strong on this case because what in the hell? and it's not something I can ignore. This has got to stop, especially when children are victims.

Yeah. Right. Especially when these innocent, unprotected children, yeah, this has got to stop. I agree. Right. So the fact that this was a similar time, similar background, all these things, I'm not ignoring it. I'm not ignoring that this has now happened twice recently at the same time of people. I know you and I and everyone wants this to never happen again, you know, this has got to

I was really struck. Sorry, we're kind of jumping over here to Ruby, but I was watching the, I've been following that case as well because it is similar. And Ruby Frankie, when she writes in her journal, or she recorded is saying that,

I can remember, but she says, adults will never believe that children can be possessed by evil spirits, right? Something like that. Yes. They will never believe that children can be evil. And so they will never understand what I was trying to do.

and getting these evil spirits out of them. Wow. Talk about evil. Talk about evil. And that is an important, thank you. Yes, that was a recording. We played on hidden true crime. And it also implies, A, it implies her belief system is frightening in that she is high

risk, as my husband has pointed out, as a criminal psychologist, that it's her belief system. That's the problem. She believes that children can be evil. But additionally, it's interesting because she does seem to believe that no one else is going to believe her. In other words, she knows she comes from the Church of Jesus Christ, Latter-day Saints, and this is not a regular belief, but it's clearly a fringe belief she believes.

Well, it's the opposite. I mean, Latter-day Saints believe that children are innocent and that they're incapable of even sinning until at least the age of eight. Lattery Saints do not baptize children until they reach the age of eight. That's the earliest that a child is baptized. They're not baptized as babies in the LDS Church. because LDS call it the age of accountability, and it's only when you reach the age of eight

that you're able to even discern between right and wrong and make choices between what is right and wrong. And so the baptism doesn't occur until eight. And so, yeah, and it says in the Book of Mormon, little children are innocent and have no need of baptism. So again, that's where Lori and Jody and Chad and Lori were just, not even close to following LDS theology. Yeah.

Thank you for sharing that. This is a good question. I think that maybe we should touch on because we're talking about repeat crimes and we're talking about history repeating itself and we can't deny that we are talking about a lot of LDS criminals tonight. And so it's saying,

could you touch on why LDS members are susceptible to these extreme beliefs in end times? Thank you for this topic. Yeah, absolutely. And that's a great question. Thank you for it. So I don't know if you're here in the beginning of the show, but we were talking about when the church was established in 1830 by Joseph Smith, who was the founding prophet leader of the church of Jesus Christ of Lattery Saints. There was a strong belief that Jesus was coming soon, his return to the earth to usher in the millennium. And the end times were coming

very soon. So that was part of the foundational beliefs of the church. And so I do think it's the reason why many Latter-day Saints, you know, I keep using the term garden variety. I don't know if I want these mainstream. It's a good one. But a lot of Latterty Saints, most like, like you and me, like, I'm just like, I'm just, I had a job and putting my kids through college. I have a home. I'm just on door, you know, I go skiing.

I like to read. You know what I mean? I'm not sitting thinking about. oh my gosh, the end of the planet is coming soon. You know, it's, but there, but there is this large and I think growing group of folks called preppers who are latching on to those early teachings where 19th century later things were believing it was coming any day. And mostly, you know, the church still believes that Jesus Christ will come again

someday and that these are the latter days and these are the end times. But it's not like get your tents, get your generators, get your guns, get your ammunition and get ready to head out to the wilderness. That's not, anyways, but there are some that are latching on to that because I think it kind of can make people feel special if they feel like, oh, I've got insider information. And yeah, the latter day, you know, the end times, these great wars, the final wars before Jesus comes again are happening now. Yeah. Yeah, thank you for sharing that. Another, another situation I think that is unique to the LDS Church, where I think they are susceptible to false prophets and following cult leaders

is the LDS origin story. And chime in, Barbara, if you want. But, you know, the LDS Church is a Christian sect that starts with Joseph Smith in the 1800s. Forgive my phone. I thought it was off. And, oh, but actually, if my roommate asking if I want ice cream, if you're listening, Sarah, Yes, yes, I do.

So I'm glad that my phone wasn't on silent. I'm going to get some ice cream after this. But so back to what I was saying, the LDS faith starts with Joseph Smith, who's the founder of Mormonism. And he has a vision. He has a vision, but God and Jesus Christ, and it says that God's authority had been taken from the earth. then he is here to restore the truth to latter day saints for the last days, the latter days. But what happens is Joseph Smith starts this massive movement. And the pioneers follow him from Kirtland to, well, from New York to Kirtland,

Torres, Ohio, to Navu, Illinois. No, he never gets to. Missouri. Missouri. And then what becomes Utah. Yeah. What becomes Utah? And then there, yeah.

Thank you. This is why I have you here. So then something happens, though, and it's in Carthage, Illinois, and Joseph Smith is martyred. He's killed while in Carthage jail. And at this moment, I think, is a very poignant part of LDS history, which is Emma Smith and Joseph Smith's children, they stayed there while there was arguments about who should then lead, who was the next prophet? And there was this moment in LDS history that I think is still to this day really undecided and where a lot of breakoff groups begin.

Some people stayed. The Rigdonite started. The FLDS Church or the Community of Christ, sorry, not the FLDS. They were later, but the community of Christ starts, the reorganized church at Jesus Christ, the latter D. That came a little bit later. But yeah, yeah. It's all these schismatic groups and there's fights over who is supposed to secede Joseph Smith. the main body of Latter-day Saints decide to follow Brigham Young, who was the president of the

Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, which we talked about before. And so the quorum of the 12, led by Brigham Young, most Latter-day Saints, most Mormons, follow Brigham Young, and Brigham Young leads them out of what was the United States at the time to what was Mexico, the Salt Lake Valley, and then shortly thereafter you have the Mexican-American War and the Western, what we call the Western U.S. today, the western half of the North American continent becomes part of the United States. And so all of a sudden, the Latterty Saints who had fled Illinois because they were fleeing the borders of the United States, they find himself back in the United States, even though they've come 1,500 miles to the Sal Lake Valley. So anyway,

so that was the largest schism, if you will, after Joseph Smith's assassination. There are a lot of many, many, many other schismatic groups today. So. Thank you. And to clarify, I saw someone in chat that said, the community of Christ is very progressive. They're not fringe. Let me correct myself. I was explaining that at this moment in history, at this moment, you're right. They're wonderful. I have friends that are members of the community of Christ.

But at this moment in history, all these break off religions. The right words. There you go. Schismatic groups. Thank you. Started for me. Yeah, of which the Church Jesus Christ for the Lowry Saints is one of those schismatic groups, one of those breakoff groups.

Yeah. Okay. Okay. One of the breakup groups. So in other words. Brigham Young then becomes the prophet, the next prophet, and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is one of those groups, and they are the largest body of Mormonism. The Church of Jesus Christ, Latter-day Saints is the largest body of Mormonism, but there are many

different sects or groups of Mormonism. Trace their origins back to Joseph Smith. So there is always this argument, I think, what I have seen, of going back to this moment in history and saying, well, was it really supposed to be Brigham Young? Maybe it was somebody else. Maybe. What's the schismatic group you came from? You know, whatever schismatic group, when I say whatever breakoff group, you're going to believe that that's the right one, you know? Correct. There is no right one. Right. Maybe they're all right. Maybe they're all right.

Right. Sorry. Like, if they're all right. You know, everybody went where, where was happening. what made them happy, what was right for them. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for using the right words when I don't have that. I don't know if I do. But I think in that sense, I just want to say there's this always this idea of who could be a profit.

There's this question for anyone that wants to dive deep into history. And so maybe they're all right. Maybe none of them are right. But the point being that someone that might want to be a cult leader. can then take that moment in history and thus say, actually, it's, it's me. And this is, this is what should have happened. So someone, so there can be good leaders and then someone who could be very nefarious. Well, I'm actually receiving visions and they're all wrong. It's me. And I think that's where I was trying to go. Yeah. And I think also there's something in LDS theology

that Latter-day Saints believe in personal revelation. And by that, Latter-day Saints believe that you can have a personal relationship with God. And again, I think this is very Christian on many fronts, but you can have a personal relationship with God and Jesus Christ and that you can pray to God and seek revelation for your life. So, you know, I'm thinking of my daughter, for example, or somebody who just applied to a bunch of different colleges. And you can pray to God and say, okay, which one, what's the right decision for me?

You know, receive that personal revelation. So that's like kind of the normal way people see it. It's like, or like, oh, I think I want to marry this person. Is this a good decision, you know? Or should I take this job opportunity or that job opportunity? You know, pray about it and receive that personal revelation from God. And then, but I think because of that belief, there's, and this is throughout church history, too. You see it a lot. And I think it's happening today. It's like, oh, well, I receive personal revelation.

Where it gets dangerous is when it's like, I receive it for me. And for you, Lori, and you were my wife. You know, like, yeah, or, you know, but, but again, but church leaders, top church leaders, you know, professed to be prophets, seers and revelators that receive revelations for the church. So again, that's very much a part of LDS theology. Thank you. Thank you. There are so many things to still talk about, and you have been here for so long, and we are just so grateful for your time.

Thank you for everyone that has been here so far, too. We have over 3,000 people watching. I told you, Barbara, I've been talking to her about doing this for a while. I was like, this is just a question. I can't answer on my own. I can't do this on my own. Is there anything else you feel like there are so many other things that you and I have talked about?

Do you feel like there's something else that you want to touch on that's of importance that we didn't get to? And I'll all kind of scroll some questions that I started to. Yeah, kind of like how we started. We talked about the dangers of extremism. You know, again, for 18 years, I studied the Mountain Meadows Massacre. There's all kinds of different circumstances that led to that. But one thread that I see going through that crime as well as today's crimes is extreme. when extreme thought starts taking place where you start thinking that murdering people or abusing

people is the right thing to do, that kind of extreme is that is dangerous. And any kinds of extremism on any front can become dangerous, whether it's political extremism today, whether it's like health extremism or you know what I mean. So I just think it's just important to avoid extremism and moderate your thought and, you know, be open to listening to other people. Don't isolate yourself from other people or other ideas and just follow like one thing you think is right. So I think that's just kind of the common thing that I would share is just avoid extremism. Thank you. Okay. So I did just think of one thing, one more thing I want to talk to you about if you're okay because I'm about to throw a doozy on the table at you.

But blood atonement because... You have another show because we need an hour for that. And maybe so. And maybe that is, and if that's what you think we should do, we can do that too. If you think that the blood atonement takes a hold of their show. Well, let me just ask you this. Do you see blood atoma is an old, alias doctor that many people bring up whenever I'm on? and I've never really seen the correlation with daybill,

but do you see blood atonement in the daybill case? Yeah, so just in a nutshell to bring up what blood atonement is. And again, most Latter-day Saints have never heard of this. I had never heard of it until I started studying Mormon history. But it was taught by Brigham Young in the 1850s, and it was a belief that Christ's blood alone was not enough to atone for the sins of the world, to atone for the most serious of sins. So it was a teaching that if you committed a really serious sin like murder or a serious

and like repeated adultery, that Christ's blood was not enough to atone for you. You also had to offer your own blood up in addition to the atonement that Jesus Christ had through his blood. You had to offer your own blood up. In other words, you had to offer to be killed. Wow. in order to atone for that serious sin. And again, there's elements of this in Christianity as well because the death penalty.

We have the death penalty in the United States. And the reason why I think the United States is the only developed country that still has a death penalty is going back to this Christian, you know, our roots in Christianity and believing that the only way to atone for murdering somebody is to be murdered yourself. But anyway, so blood atonement was you could choose to offer up your own blood as an atonement for a very serious thing that you committed. And Brigham Young taught this in the 1850s is very chilling. And when he started to see that it was leading to some extra legal violence, he stops teaching it in the late 1850s. But it's still there in the historical record.

And so where I see reverberations of this sometimes, and Chad and Laurie's super fringe thinking is when they say, oh, well, we had to, you know, these children or Charles or Tammy, no, they didn't say that about Tammy, though, did they, that she was possessed? No, they did. Her name was, her name was Viola. She was a zombie name Viola. Tammy was.

Okay. So with these children, they've been possessed. And these poor, you know, it's not even the real title. and JJ in there anymore. And so we need to help them go on to the next life. They're stuck right now because their bodies are possessed by these evil spirits. Again, this is so fringy. And so we need to help them on, help them on to the next life.

And the only way to do that is to kill their bodies, kill the spirits so they can go on to the next life. That it's not just like But Atomit, but a little bit. I can see kind of echoes of that a little bit. I see what you're saying. Yes, if they have to atone for their sins and move on to the next life, what's the difference? The sins, they were just saying that they were possessed. And so, like, let's help them on to the next life and free that. So, again, it's not free them.

Same, but a little bit. And that's, I think Lori can feel like she actually did a good thing. She was releasing her children, which is just absolutely horrendous, of course. Right. Okay. Well, thank you for explaining that. That does make sense. Thank you.

You know, I want to end something that I think is really important, Barbara. And we're going to have you back because everyone's demanding. Everyone's saying, we can have you back. Oh, here is a very generous donation. We received a very generous donation, and they do have a question for you. They want to know how much you're being paid

by the LDS Church directly or indirectly. Zero. Zero. So I used to work for the church as an editor for a church magazine, and I also worked for the church history department, so I wasn't employed for the church for 12 years, but I now work for a very independent press,

and we publish history that is hard-hitting and very critical of the church. It can be at times, not always. But so I'm, the only reason I actually can be on the show talking about is because I don't work for the church. I'm just out here independent saying what I think. If I worked for the church, I wouldn't, I don't think they let, well, I should say, they ask their employees not to go on, you know, and make public statements to the press

or the mean or things like that if they work for the church. Unless they work for the public affairs department there. So, yeah, so no, I'm not paid a dime by the church. Thank you for that. Like, yeah, you're here. Facts wherever they lead. That's my, that's my motto for life. facts wherever they lead and Barbara is the same way.

Wherever those facts lead, we follow. I want to just conclude with, I want to end with what's most important, and that's the victims. You know, I've become close to many of the surviving victims of the daybel case, but I want to share, can you share a little bit about what happened to you as you research the Mountain Meadows massacre, a historic LDS crime, and where that led to you? and about the victims that touch your lives? Yeah, and I will always become emotional,

and I hope I always do when I talk about the victims of the Mount Meadows Massacre. As I was hired to edit this book, and this is when I was working for the LDIA's Church and the Church History Department working on the first book. The second book we wrote independently, and delving into the sources, and just like you, Lauren, reading every historical source I could. trials, witness statements, trial transcripts, everything I could, I was just horrified.

And as horrific as it is to learn about JJ and Tiley, Tammy, and others, I was reading about the brutal murder of dozens of children and women and men. And it was horrific for me. I had two little girls at the time. And so I was thinking of myself as a mother and how those mothers weren't able to protect their children. And me, you know, that could have been me with my little children. So I wanted to meet descendants of victims and reach out to them. And I didn't know this at the time, but when I started to meet them and just tell them how sorry it was for what had happened to their ancestors, to their family, I was amazed at their reaction.

you know, tears and I would cry. We would be hugging and they would just say thank you. Thank you for just saying that. And thank you for telling the truth about what happened to our ancestors, to our victims in our family. And when I experienced that, started meeting family members of the victims, I know you relate, Lauren. When I started meeting family members of the victims, I know you relate, Lauren, When I started meeting family members of the victims and just telling them I was sorry, I started to feel better. I started to get over the PTSD-like symptoms I was having. I was having horrific nightmares. I was going home sobbing as I was driving home from work every day after writing, working on this book.

And it was because I realized there was something I could do for the victims. And what I could do for the victims was to reach out to their family members and express the sorrow. And then I would say to the family members, what can I do for you? What can I do for you? And they would say, tell the story, tell the truth, tell the story about what happened to our family members and spread it far and wide. And so I'm always so honored any time I'm asked to speak about the Mount Meadows massacre and tell the story. And then they said, and then make sure that the land at the Mountain Meadows, where their remains of their ancestors still lie in graves there. make sure that that land is protected.

It's never developed. And so working with church leaders, we worked with these descendants groups and reached out to the federal government and together sought national historic landmark studies for the Mountain Meadows. And so the Mountain Meadows is preserved in perpetuity to today. It is a beautiful but yet tragic site. Again, if you're ever in southwestern Utah, I encourage you to visit it. And there are monuments throughout the valley honoring the victims and telling the story about the truth about what happened to them.

So another thing I did was I reached out to descendants of victims and descendants of perpetrators. And together we made two huge friendship quilts. There are 48 squares. Lord, do you have a picture of it? There were 48 squares, each quilt, and each of those 48 squares was made. Half were made by descendants of perpetrators or just members of the LDS Church, and the other half were made by descendants of the victims, family members of the victims. We made these absolutely stunning quilts, two of them together.

You can go online and see them, and one of them hangs in Carroll County, Arkansas, which is where the victims came from, and the other one is on display in St. George in a museum there. It's in the Washington County Museum upstairs there. And their identical quilts except the friendship squares with the messages in the middle are written by, they're all embroidered by various people. So reconciliation is possible,

and only when there can be reconciliation, can we all find peace and healing? But that was a wonderful experience to participate in that. So if you look closely around the edge of the quill, there's vines, and on each of those leaves is the name of one of the victims. And then on the flowers, yeah. And then on the flowers are the names of the zing. 17, each of those flowers is the name of the 17 little children who were spared the slaughter

because they were too young to tell the tales. And so those victims, they're always remembered, again, with these messages in the middle. I need to give credit to my aunt, Anna Rolap, who was a master quilter. She came up with, I had the idea for it, but I don't know anything about quilting. she came up with the design and then made, and these quilts are hand and quilted, nothing's machine. And when we had events at the Mountain Meadows in 2007 and other events in Arkansas as well, where these groups came together in a spirit of healing and reconciliation, we would have these quilts, the quilt tops, stretched out for hand stitching.

So not only did we make these squares, but we hand-stitched all of these huge, their giant quilts together at the mountain meadows. There's pictures of that on this website as well. But, you know, doing things like these can make healing. And I just hope that the families of JJ and Tiley, Tammy, Charles, they can have the same kind of healing. You never forget, and the pain will never go away, of course, and it shouldn't. But I just hope that they can have healing. And I think Lauren watching you and your relationship with the Woodcock's

grandparents, for example, I see so much healing that you've done. So I just want to commend you for what you're doing for this modern crime. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for sharing. No, thank you. It is. And I think it also shows how crime can reverberate for generations, too.

Yeah. You know, this historic crime, that there's still needed to be apologies. There's still needed to be forgiveness. There's still needed to be reconciliation. I think it shows also how important. Like, it reverberates for generations and generations. And it never ends. It never ends.

And, you know, it's not just a one. time event. You do this, the healing's done. It's our way we move on. It's just, it needs to be constantly done. And, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, we look at, our history of, of, we enslaved, millions of people in this country, and the genocide and the massacres of Native American in this country. So, I, I, I, I think that we're coming to a time where we're realizing that intergenerational trauma needs to be healed from these kinds of crimes. They need to be, they need to to be stopped. And then the healing needs to continue.

Yeah. This thank you from M.K., by the way, at the very beginning of this, at the very beginning, I started. She said, thank you for this one. But look at what she wrote two hours ago. Four generation survivor here. We were very mistreated going to the monument, which was mysteriously talked over the time. It was terrified.

She's saying thank you. But thank you, MK. We're so glad that. that you that you needed this and that you know that monument that has been fixed it did it did fall over um but it's up again and and and it's in in good shape and being so well maintained and i encourage you to come back to the mountain matters there's there's many new monuments that have been made in conjunction with people in Utah and descendants of the victims so yeah and and thank you for recognizing i i have felt a kinship and a bond with

with Barbara truly as I've learned how you I haven't been able to let this case go and since the day I saw it come down and you've helped me sort of process that to why and I just want you guys to know that the reason the biggest reason I am here um for Chad Daybell's trial away from my family is truly to to bear witness as John my husband explained at our last podcast like I I I just need to be here and I had the honor of even going to brunch today with um thickie holbin tammy dables and and i think she'd be okay if i told if i told this story but at bruch someone recognized me and they came up to me and they said oh i watch you on youtube but i was quick to say this right here this is tammy dables and this you know because that's who this is about

you know and i pointed that out and i said this is i this is tammy dables and the woman actually got teary-eyed and she said, you know, it's been a long time, but justice is coming to Vicky. And that meant so much because that's what I want to see happen. And it is so important to join together and always put the victims first and just remember. And I just want you guys know that that is why I'm here too. We can't take back what happened. It is going to reverberate for generation. This is going to be a crime that is never, ever forgotten. But more importantly, JJ and Tiley and Tammy will never be forgotten. And that's what's most important. Exactly. And like with my book, I'll just tell you all, I make a dollar 50 a book. I don't make any

money on this book. But why I want y'all to read it is to make sure the victims of 1857 are never forgotten too. Yeah. Thank you. Yes. Yes. And we have, yeah, your book is incredible. So thank you. Thank you for your research and for caring and thank you for being here tonight for well longer than I told you was going to be. So we'll have you back for a full episode on blood atollum. Everyone's like, what? I'm like, okay, yeah, you're right. Yeah, I'll come back. Okay. Thank you everyone for being here. Thank you for subscribing and joining. And we'll be on this trial journey every step of the way. We'll see you. Bye. Bye. Hello, Hidden Jems. It's Lauren with Hidden a True Crime podcast. As a TV reporter, I learned the art of visual. storytelling. So if you're like me, you enjoy listening, but also viewing. You can actually

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