Hidden True Crime - CHAD DAYBELL TRIAL: Zulema DESTROYS The Defense & More Proof Chad Ran His Family Like A Cult

Episode Date: May 18, 2024

Zulema Pastenes, Alex Cox's wife at his time of death and a key witness for the prosecution, testified. We also heard gut-wrenching testimony from Dr. Garth Warren, the medical examiner who conducted the autopsies for JJ and Tylee. Additionally, several of Tammy's coworkers testified... and Chad Daybell was not happy. This episode is a compilation of trial recaps posted on YouTube each day during lunch breaks. I was outside the Ada County Courthouse, so the audio isn’t perfect, but you can hear everything being said.  Join Hidden True Crime as we follow Chad Daybell's trial from beginning to end. Host Lauren Matthias is in the courtroom daily, doing lunch lives on YouTube and summarizing each day and week right here on Hidden: A True Crime Podcast. Lauren Matthias was a television reporter for a decade, and has followed the Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell case since 2019. Lauren and her husband John Matthias, a criminal psychologist, started Hidden True Crime in 2020 with their Season: 'Beyond the Veil' a psychological deep dive into the doomsday murders and prophet. A podcast that started at their dinner table has now become the dynamic husband-and-wife duo of Dr. John Matthias, a forensic psychologist, and Lauren Matthias, an investigative journalist, delving into the psychological facets of unthinkable crimes every week. Thank you for your support through sponsorships, subscribing, listening, and becoming a Patreon member at Patreon.com/HiddenTrueCrime Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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premium materials like European linen, organic cotton, but they cut out the middleman. So everything is priced way lower than you'd expect. Refresh. your every day with luxury you can actually use. Head to quince.com slash hidden true crime for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quince, quince, q-u-in-c-com slash hidden true crime for free shipping and 365 day of returns. Quince.com slash hidden true crime. This episode is a compilation of trial recaps that were posted over on YouTube during Chad Daybell's trial. I was outside the 80 County Court House so the audio isn't perfect, but you can hear everything being said. Today's been a really, really, really big day, a hard day, a heavy day, but a good day for justice.

The prosecution is doing an excellent job, and Lindsay Blake is doing an excellent job today, and it's just incredible. Rob Wood's parents were in there today. Zulema is doing an excellent job, and she's being a truth teller. Yes, Zulema has immunity. She shared that during the defense, but I want to explain one thing in some way. I trust her more because she has immunity. She has no reason to not tell the truth right now.

And I truly believe she is. She might be being careful with her words, as people do, as they should be on the witness stand. But she is telling the truth and she's sharing it how it happened. Some really, really important things that the jurors, just, you know, they're taking notes vigorously. Zulama sort of glanced at Chad and Chad wasn't looking at her. And I can't see Zulama very well, actually, unless I scoot over because prior or the prosecution is directly in front of me. But I did look at Zulem and I looked at Chad and that did seem to be the case that maybe she was glancing at him and and he wasn't looking at her as much. He's doing

his frantic scrolling. He does not look happy with her. And I assume that's the case because we also learned that if anybody, anybody disagrees with Chad, they are ultimately dubbed dark. We knew this, but Zulema brought it home today to the jury that yes, you are dubbed dark and deemed dark when Chad does not agree with you. He decides, Chad decides who is dark and who is light. Chad uses his pendulum to decide. Chad Daybell decides how many creations you have been in. We learned about realms and creations and five different worlds that one can go to. The earthly, the earth is just one of those worlds. It's the lowest and the most corrupt. And you're in a probationary state. That comes from the scriptures, by the way. You are in a probationary state.

while you're on the earth in an earthly body to prepare to meet God. Thus you have, you sin and you repent. And Christ forgives you through the atonement. Some of you will find these beliefs familiar. Well, Chad takes it a step further and lets his group know that actually if you have been in a certain number of creations and you have already been exalted through these past probationary states, these past probations, then you are already exalted. You are saved. Christ's atonement doesn't matter

necessarily to you. You don't even need it. No repentance is needed. You are just going straight to translated, exalted state. You have earned your place in God's kingdom and repentance isn't an issue. Well, I had to stop and really think about that. It was a frightening thing to really, to really really grasp and learn because you take a bunch of people, I'm going to play a couch psychologist right now, you take a bunch of people that have mental illness, but let's take it further. Maybe not mental illness, but maybe they're a personality disorder. I can say that about Lori. Many people have said that she has a personality disorder. Personality disorders are varied and wide, but these cluster Bs, let's just say that these people have no empathy, that they're a little bit

like maybe they're psychopathic or maybe they are sociopaths or they have zero empathy and zero conscience. It's certainly what it seems to be. I mean, I think we can see Chad's narcissism for what it is while we hear these stories about him. And so you take these people who probably, not probably, I've read Chad's autobiography, so I'll say it. You take someone like Chad DeBowell with narcissism and he definitely used religion as a replacement for his conscience, if that makes sense. And I think a lot of people that perhaps don't have a strong conscience or moral compass that many people are kind of just kind of have, you know, for me, it doesn't take religion for me to make good choices, right? It takes a feeling. It takes realizing that I want to be good or that I have empathy or that I feel bad.

And if you take somebody that doesn't have that, but they rely on the rules of religion to sort of be their guide. And then you take that away from them. Then what? Then what? Then where do they go? Do they go on a murderous spree across states? It sure seems like that's what they did. And Zulama stated that Lori would say that all the time.

It doesn't count for me. They can have an affair now because it doesn't count for them. Because if their only conscience and their only moral compass was based on these rules of their religion, and then you take that away and you say it doesn't matter for you, you can do whatever you want, that's frightening. That's frightening. And from Zulema, we learned what they did today. And we learned exactly where that led them. And she said, Lori would say that all the time. She'd be canoodling with Chad. Well, it doesn't count. I'm good. I can have an affair. It's okay. And then they deem Charles Dark. They call him Ned. And they do the first, casting and it's taken away, but then Garrett comes. Isn't that funny? That's the name of the

attorney for all of them now. Garrett shows up in Charles. Maybe Charles was using Garrett for something. I mean, he is a family friend of the Cox's for a long time. Maybe he was an attorney of Charles and maybe some of you know. He was back in court today. He's also Zulma's attorney. And then you have, and then Garrett gets cast out of Charles's body and then you have Iplos come. I think that's why they, I think Zulema pronounced Iblos right with an E. Iplos shows up and he's a really dark, really bad spirit. And then anyway, Dulema repeated about how many times the Dulema repeat that if you get rid of the spirit, the evil spirit, the body dies because they're zombies. Zulema also stated, she asked Alex after, before they were married, Alex Cox, after he killed Charles, after he killed Iblos.

Are you okay? I think most people that cared about someone, if they were killing somebody in self-defense or whatever the case may be, if they pulled a trigger and it hurt somebody, I think it's an okay question to ask someone, are you okay? How are you doing? Alex's response was like, why are you even asking me? I'm fine. He was a zombie. No big deal.

Another point that kind of shows that I don't know how much feeling or emotion, Alex has it all. And so that was an interesting story, Zlema said, that after he killed Iplos, No biggie. I'm good. I'm good, Zulema. I don't feel bad. It wasn't traumatizing for me. He certainly showed that in his police interview. After he killed Charles, we watched that. He just sits there. Stoneface. No expression. Sort of like Chad does in court. I'm good. I just killed someone, no big deal, because he was a zombie, because he was Iplos. We learned through Zilema, some of the most, the things that made me gasped the most

that the jury is absolutely listening to every word Zulema. I want you to know when she states that she knew that Tiley was dubbed dark and a zombie before the in Arizona that that Loria told her several times. I wonder who else Lori told and they're not coming forward and saying the absolute truth. Melanie Gibb or others. Melanie Pulaski, Boudreauke, Zulama said it. Yeah, I knew that Tiley was a zombie. And then Zulema admits to visiting.

Lori in Regsburg after Tiley was murdered and before JJ. She saw J.J. She didn't see Tiley. So she asked Lori, where's Tiley? And Lori's response was she had to be set free. Zulema then asks, what do you mean by that? Lori responds,

don't ask. This is somebody, a woman who realizes and understands that a body dies once the evil spirit leaves their body. And she's sharing this story and she knew about Charles. Zulema knew. Zulema knew. But she's telling us. That's where I give her credit now.

She has immunity. She's telling us everything she knows. She talks about Gibb visiting her and calling her all the time. She was very close with Melanie Gibb. She knew Melanie Gibb well before she had met Lori because Melanie Gibb and Zulema were in the same ward or the same congregation. I believe someone once told me that Melanie Gibb was her visiting teacher. And so they would visit one another and they were in touch and it was Gibb that introduced Zulema. to Lori. And and Gibb would tell her things about JJ being dark and Lori would tell her about JJ being dark and Melanie Gibb came back from her visit in Rexburg and told Zulema that JJ was found dark and Zulema knew that that Lori had been telling her that evil spirits were trying

to attack JJ in the in the in the middle of the night. This is again back in Arizona even before Rexburg but the evil spirits were going into Bailey JJ's therapy dog. I'm very very very, very grateful that therapy dog is safe, but it's also shocking to think that they, they didn't feel like they needed to do a casting in the dog. They just simply gave the dog away, but not JJ. There are some really, really profound moments restating again and again and again from Zulema that this was Chad's belief system. Chad was in charge. Chad was deeming who was dark and who was light. Chad would deem you dark if you disagreed with him. That's why Serena went from light to dark because she started questioning this whole idea of not needing to repent.

We learned about the seven gatherers, finally. Finally, we learned about the seven gatherers. And really, it's what we were kind of all suspecting that it was a group of people. We learned it was a group of girlfriends with an email address. I'm going to guess that the email address probably has seven gatherers in it. Zulema said there were no members. There was no official group. It was where they exchanged religious articles.

I realize why John Pryor probably wants to bring this up. It's a group of girls, a group of women, excuse me, and Chad Daybal thus was not involved in this. So if he can sort of confuse the jury and make the jury think that the seven gatherers are the cult, Chad's not part of this little email club. But Zuleleman made it clear on stand, in my opinion, that this isn't really a club. There are no members. It was an email address where these girlfriends exchanged notes and religious.

emails to each other and things that they learned. I don't think the jury's buying that. I don't think the jury's going to get confused by the seven gatherers. In fact, I think the jury's been wondering what the seven gatherers are. And I don't think now I think they have their answer and it doesn't mean much to them with all the evidence that we've seen. Melanie Polowski and Melanie Gibb both said they had no idea what the seven gatherers are. I don't know. Maybe they don't.

Maybe it was the email address. Maybe they do. But either way, Zulema telling the truth about the seven gathers, I think sort of clears up any confusion and misconception and idea that this could change the jurors' minds or sway them. I will say that there is a police interview with Zulama in 2020. It was actually played in court.

You guys might have seen this. John Pryor is wanting to put it into evidence because Zulama is stating in this interview with police in 2020 that or she's responding yes to police when the police officer asks uh rexper police ask her so do you kill the person in the casting and then does does when the evil spirit lives are you killing the person or something like that she uses the k word and zulemen says yes on the stand today john prior asked her a similar question and she said i wouldn't say kill i would say the body dies. I can see why John

Pryor wants to put this into evidence. I can see why the prosecution doesn't want to put this into evidence. Zulama was a heck of a witness. I talked to a couple that came here from Utah. They've been following the case. They drove up. They had the time. And they've been watching the trial very closely. They feel like Zulama is the star witness. They feel like she sealed the deal today.

I appreciated their thoughts. Everyone else I've talked to and I've asked, you know, even my neighbors and the next to have said, yeah, Zulema's doing a great job. I do think she's telling the truth. I think she was a lot more truthful and forthcoming than Melanie Gibb, than David Warwick, and many others. She also shared, once again, when Melanie Gibb concluded her trip in Rexburg.

Melanie Gibb went straight to Zulema's house after that trip in Rexburg. And remember, Melanie Gibb was there. The day JJ lost his life was murdered. And the first thing Melanie Gibb told Ulema was that JJ was a zombie. These people knew these things. So think about that for a second, too, about Melanie Gibbs. She knew that J.J. was a zombie. Absolutely. We know that, but there's just one other person telling us. And then she's asked to lie to police about where J.J. is. And she does it. She did. She lied. I'm glad she finally came forward. But so many of these people

could, just as Larry Woodcock has said on my live stream, so many could have come forward. So many. While we can all wish that so many of these people came. forward earlier and saved people's lives. I'm grateful and I do believe that Zulem is telling the truth today. And for that, I'm grateful. A Dr. Garth Warren medical examiner that did the autopsies on J.J. entirely. In other words, yes, it has been a very, very heartbreaking day. I guess if you combine yesterday afternoon and today, a heartbreaking two days. Let me tell you everything going on in the courtroom because you can hear everything. that I'm hearing, but you can't see everything that everybody is seen. And so let me tell you.

And then I'll tell you about these photos, too. I saw these photos last year. They showed the gallery last year. And I will never forget it. These photos changed me forever. I'll never, ever forget it. And so I know what the jurors are seen. And I'm not surprised that several of them are crying and overwhelmed. Men and women, men and female and male jurors are not okay in there. One woman in particular, she sort of started looking away from her computer. It was just too much for her, I think. And my heart goes out to all of them as well, particularly the moment. JJ is really difficult when you see the binds on his ankles and his feet,

and then his entire body is in duct tape. And then the thing that got to me last year, and I guess I should have done a trigger warning before, So here's your trigger warning and I hope that most people understand what I'm about to say. I'm going to a real trial and I'm reporting on what's going on there and it's heartbreaking. The photo that I'll never forget, I noted the jurors in the courtroom when it happened was, is JJ with the duct tape jaw line to jawline across his mouth. It affected everyone in the courtroom and it affected me again hearing the description and having flashbacks to last year. Vicki Hoban, nor Kay, nor even Larry Woodcock are in the courtroom. Larry was there for

this last year. He saw the photos. He was openly weeping last year. I'm glad he's taking a break and glad all of them are taking a break. Rex Connor is in the courtroom. That's Lori's uncle. I'm hoping that perhaps we can talk to him in a little bit as well with the podcast Silver Linings to hear his thoughts. I know. I know. noticed that Judge Boyce was also emotional. And if you realize Judge Boyce has been on this case for longer than we all have, right? I mean, Judge Boyce has been covering this for four and a half years, and he attended Lori's trial.

So to see the emotion from Judge Boyce even, that'll tell you about what the courtroom is seen today. Chad DeBell, Chad DeBell had furrowed brows, a lot of shaking of his head during the photos of JJ. like he's trying to look like, oh, terrible. Oh, or I don't know, like, this is, I don't know what he was trying to do with that shaking. It's something he did that second day too when they were showing pictures like, oh, this is terrible. And I don't buy it for one second. The guy reacts to nothing. So do I think he's acting?

Yes. Yes, I do. I think he's attempting to show some sort of emotion, which is not something he knows how to do. and he is attempting to show something and it's so foreign to him how to do that. That's what he's doing. And then his furrowed brows, he had a lot of those. No, no tears like he allegedly had with a Tammy Dave on 911 call. Furrowed his brows a lot.

John Pryor did not need to pass him Kleenex this time around. He was just fine as long as he was furrowing his brows and looking upset. So I think the only thing we can conclude is that he's not getting Botox behind bars, but that's the only thing that his furrow brow tells us, in my opinion. I actually think his reaction is not going to bode well for the jurors. To remind you about Lori Vallow's reaction last year, it was actually much more extreme. It was this date that Lori Vallow demanded she not be in the courtroom.

She didn't want to see the photos of her kids. And while it disgusted the jurors, I've talked to jurors, and they told me that that day absolutely appalled. them because the fact that she's forcing jurors and strangers to look at these photos of her children and she was refusing to be in there and felt she was entitled to not be in the courtroom that day is despicable, right? It's despicable, it's entitled, it's selfish, and look at your kids, Lori, look what you did. Ironically, I'd say Chad Daybell's reaction is worse to me. I'm speaking for myself, my opinion. At least I know that Lori was disturbed by photos

of her children. Lori then refused to look at the autopsy photos. She looked down and away and she sulked the rest of the day, angry that Judge Boyce disagreed with her and that she needed to be in the courtroom. So when I think about that and how appalled I was by that, at least she reacted. At least she was upset to being there. Chad Debaugh, furrowed brow day. He's furrowed his brow. He, I want to say this, he's doing the same thing with his hands he does every day. Someone knew in court today who's been following the trial that they spoke to me he and his daughter are here and the hey rex and uh he said to me he's been watching our lunch lives and he did say to me you're right about his hands Lauren they are strange his hands are smooth they're feminine they don't match

the rest of what he looks like um just want to let you know that stay right here Rex and then Zulema I want to just tell you guys this yesterday a juror from the Lori Vallow trial and I have Rex here with me. He's going to jump on in a little bit, but a juror from the Lori Valo trial texted me, and she told me that she thought Zulema did such an excellent job yesterday and let me know that when it came to Lori's trial last year, it was actually Zulama that sealed a deal for. So she said, just so you know Zulema's testimony last year was really affected me. And I knew. And she said, and I think that's going to be the same thing that happens with the jury this time around. I have Rex Conner with me. It's Lori Valo DeBel's uncle who's

in court today and we're live. You're used to it. You are host of the Silver Linings podcast. I am and my nephew Adam. Yes, Adam Cox. And so I just want to ask you how you're doing in there or your thoughts about what's going on. You've been here the last couple of days. Right. And as you know, of course, it's so emotional.

It's such an emotional burden to go through this, especially to do it live. I'm here because one of my daughters wanted to be here and when my daughter's wanted to be here and when my daughters are here I want to be here with them but it's a singular experience and yes heavy emotionally but there are some positive reasons for being here thank you and so and so that's why you're here do you feel like um well what are your thoughts i mean clearly i know why you were there for lorries chad day bell's trial any thoughts in general this trial your thoughts of what you've been learning or seeing or feeling well we just continue looking for answer in this horrific tragedy, and we're getting some.

And when we get answers, yes, we want to get answers. No, we don't like the answers. We got the information they bring, the additional emotion, the additional horror they bring, but we are getting some. And you're just talking about Zlima's testimony. We're glad to get some answers from that from Melanie's the day before. There are a lot of questions we want to answer around Melanie, and we got some of those Melanie and EAMs,

so more positive coming out of the tragedy here. Thank you for sharing that, and it is true. You are Melanie's uncle. That must have been difficult. Can I ask you more specifics about, you said you have concerns about Melanie's testimony? You're looking for answers from Melanie's testimony. She's your niece, and I'm sure you care about her a lot.

But any additional thoughts there? Yeah, that's one of the most difficult, difficult situations. this for the family because Melanie's still with us, thank goodness. But we see that the same recordings, the same background that everyone else sees. We have the same questions. You don't want to think that any of your family members, especially those that you hold close and that you love, are involved or embroiled in something like this in such a despicable evil. And when you find out they are and how much they're embroiled, it's devastating. And so I wish it weren't. I wish that weren't the reality we're dealing with. But we're finding out more and more and getting questions

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Another thing I want to point out to were John Pryor's objections. talk about going beyond the scope. It was, you know, I was actually talking to some other people that are in there. We have a little group, you know, people that are in there sort of everyday, public, podcasters, people that care. And we were just discussing how John Pryor, he didn't really seem to talk about JJ. He actually asked questions sort of in disguise a little bit, asked about bruising, asked if being embalmed.

So he was asking this to Dr. Warren, asking if being embalmed would cause bruising or a lot of bruising. And clearly, without saying it, he was trying to get some things in about Tammy, trying to cast doubt about Tammy's bruises. Never mind that her bruises are in the exact shape of somebody holding her down with fingers, you know, on her arms, her forearms, and then on her chest. And then he also asked about a pulmonary embolism. As we know, Heather Daybell testified that despite, uh, despite, Heart failure being the initial reason they said caused Tammy's death. He jumped to a pulmonary embolism with Heather Debel saying that Tammy Daibel had gained 40 pounds,

giant eye roll there, and that she had a pulmonary embolism. And so then for him to start asking questions about what might cause a pulmonary embolism, prosecution objected, but it was an interesting move. It's almost like he's thinking, look, what can he do? He can cast doubt probably the best on Tammy Daybell's death, If he can cast doubt there, maybe he saves his client to charge. I don't know. I don't know what's in his brain.

That's just what I thought, but I don't think they're going to buy it from everything we've heard. And there's more coming with Tammy Dave. I'll just, I'll leave it at that. I'll tell you that. I think that the Woodcock and Vicky will likely come after lunch. Oh, look at this. Okay, so here I have Tom Evans. J.

Jir 18, Tom Evans. You're watching my lunch live over here. And I was like, I want to get his take. You know, Laura texted me. yesterday and shared with me how much Zulema's testimony meant to her last year as far as a guilty verdict. And this is this bringing up memories? You've seen all these photos. I've seen all these photos. You've seen all these photos. You've seen the closer photos of me. What does this day feel like to kind of relive a year later? Yeah, it's a hard day. I probably could have done

without this morning, but I got out yesterday afternoon. So I decided I needed to be here today. But it's hard. Yeah. And I think it's going to be really hard on those tours. Yeah. Do you think that, well, let me just ask you, this day last year, I guess it came a little bit earlier for you guys, didn't it? Earlier in the trial this day, you don't remember.

Did it affect you as far as the guilty verdict, like how you felt about the woman sitting across from you or anything like that? Like, how did these photos affect you and your feelings about the kids? case. Yeah, it definitely made me angrier at her. I don't think it affected how I felt about her guilt or not guilt. I think I'd pretty much paid up my mind by that time. She was guilty. There was enough evidence to prove that she was guilty without that. But I kind of nailed it down, I guess. And you've also shared, I just want to share something about how about Tom. He shared, you know, the jurors, there's a variety of ages on the jury this year as well as last year. And there was a really

juror last year. I think I can even say that there was a 20-year-old juror last year. And I remember you kind of talked about how everyone was worried about this juror and making sure this person was okay. And you guys felt bad for this particular jerk. Can you share that a little bit? Like you guys kind of were a family there, you know, worried about one another. She was exactly Tyler's age. And I think she was much too young to be exposed to what she had to be exposed to. She didn't really have the life experience that that's old guys have, I guess. So I think it was kind of unfair to her to have to be exposed to all of that. But I see a couple of jurors on this jury that looked to be about the same age.

So I worry about them also. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah. This will forever change them. And these people, as we know, they haven't followed this case. A lot of them shared that they weren't into true crime. You know what I mean?

They avoid this. And yet here they are having to do some of the hardest work. So thank you to those. jurors who do their civic duty and do this. That's how they ended up on the jury is they were following the case probably. It's like the same way I ended up on the jury. Right. Absolutely no interest and would never want to see this and here they are. Thank you Tom so much.

Oh and then Tom really quickly and then Tom is your book. Well let's talk about you know Tom is in here every day too. I want to share this. I sit by him often. He is dedicated every day he is taking notes. He actually does sketches too. I've seen your sketches of what's going on in there. You're dedicated to this.

Can you share with us about your book and where they can go and maybe buy it for pre-sales? Well, thank you for taking the time to do that. I appreciate it. Last time, I think I got 35 pre-orders within five minutes. We have amazing community. That's awesome. But yeah, my book, Money, Power, and Sex, the Lori Valor Dayvale Trial is available for pre-order. You can go to Tom Evansauthor.com and pre-order the book and it will be released.

As soon as there is a verdict in this trial. Thank you. Thanks, Tom. Oh, and then one last thing that's interesting. Now on the stand, we have Detective Werther with Chandler, Arizona Police. That's what's going on right now. And the most interesting thing that we're discussing are phone pings from, doon, doon, do, Chad. And why does it matter?

Because Chad wasn't in Arizona when Charles was killed? Well, because Chad was texting Lori on July 11, 2019. while Lori was driving through Burger King and coming back, who was she in touch with? Chad Daybell. So we're talking about phone peens in Idaho on July 11, 2019, the day that Charles Vallow was murdered. I was not expecting what happened this afternoon

and I just need to talk about it. I just want to say thank you to Pam Peebles, to Tammy Gee and to Gina Anderson for their incredible, testimonies back to back to back this afternoon. Their testimonies for the prosecution, but for Tammy Debaugh, to bear witness to who Tammy Debeau was, to her help, to her kindness, to loving and caring about her and the truth, three in a row, not just one, but three.

Janet Anderson spoke about how she saw Tammy and how Tammy joked about having to put up a curtain in her office so that she didn't have to wave high to all the kids. kids coming by and she could get work done, shows her love of children and also that she was very healthy and thinking about the future. After that, it was Tammy Ghee and Tammy spoke about and actually I might get Pam and Tammy mixed up, but I believe it was Tammy who spoke about how Tammy Gee, who spoke about how Tammy Daybelt knew every child's name. And that could have been Pam Peoples, actually. I'm starting to think that that was Pam Peoples and she started crying and saying that Tammy knew every child's name.

And I looked over at Chad. He actually looked, you know that face, you know, okay, you know the women that, and I say this from experience and I say this when women are taught they can't be angry and they're angry and then they're smiling, but really deep down, they're angry. That's what it reminds me of. You know that the person that's looking at you, I think Key and Pill do a good skit about this. And they're like, you're angry?

And the moment's like, no, I'm not. No, I'm not. Do you know what I'm talking about, like, the whole, like, masking the anger because people think the anger isn't okay. And by the way, anger is okay. It's okay to be angry, but it's not, not okay to hurt someone. That's what I, that's what Daniel Tiger teaches us. But the women, I say women because it's mostly women who are taught they can't be angry,

even though we can be. Clearly, Chad's not a woman. But they smile and deep down their. angry and they're trying not to show it. That is what Chad Debeau was reminding me up today as these women, these queens spoke and testified for Tammy Debo. This like grin, this tense grin trying to show that he isn't angry. They all spoke of her health. Every single one of them spoke of her help. Pan people, there was a really interesting objection by prior when Pan people started saying, when she was asked by Wixom, did Tammy talk?

to you about her health and and John Pryor shouted objection and that's it and Judge Boyce looked at them and said because you know means what judge Boyce overruled it and she was able to share how Tammy had talked about her help how she had been training for a race and then she went on to say that Tammy was even proud because she had lost some weight of from working out so hard and at that That moment, Chad takes his little weird pursed lips and his face and expression and he shakes his head. Never mind, he didn't cry remembering Tammy.

I was crying. I was crying learning about Tammy. When I heard that Tammy Deabel knew every child, when I heard how much she was loved and how she had to get curtains so that she'd have to wave to every student going by and how she never called in sick and be a good employee she was, I got teary-eyed. I got emotional learning about Tammy. in how her life was snuffed from her, just taken from her at the prime of her life when she's starting to become a grandparent and fit and losing weight and planning for races.

Chad just shakes his head. No, she didn't lose weight. No, she didn't. That's what he cares about, that everybody makes sure they know that his beautiful wife gained 40 pounds. These women, the jury was taking notes. The jurors were taking notes. And I don't think they appreciated John Pryor's objections either. It was a really powerful moment in there, not just for justice for Tammy Daybeau, but to see Chad's reaction. Tammy and to feel, and it was emotional.

The women were emotional. They all talked about their love of Tammy and how she helped. It was just, it was so powerful. And the other thing I noticed about Chad, Chad is the man who wants to control the narrative. He's been isolating Tammy for years, controlling the narrative. I spoke to a visiting teacher. That is somebody in the church that is assigned

from her congregation to visit Tammy Daybilt, a chick on her. I knocked on her door when I was in Rexburg, not knowing it was her visiting teacher for another reason. It was actually about a ping. I was curious about a ping near this person's house. She was kindly invited me in, and she and her husband went on to tell me that she'd been visiting her as her visiting teacher for about five years. And they said it was an ongoing joke that they knew that when she would visit Tammy Debo, that she would be home in 20 minutes. Why? Because she would be invited into Tammy Debel's home and it was very nice and they'd have a nice visit and then Chad would appear in the doorway. And she knew at that moment her visit was done. She was not welcome and it was time to leave. That was her memory. And that is why her visits were

Tammy or no longer than 20 minutes. Chad Debel treated his family. in my opinion, just like a cult, he isolated them. He took them from their home in Springville, from Tammy's family, and from Samantha and Jason, who I just saw and her parents. And they moved him to Rexburg because of his vision. And he told them everything. He told them who they could associate with. If he didn't want him associated with someone anymore,

that he would tell them they were dark. I'm sure he told her that Heather Daybell was dark. When he called Heather Daybell, when Heather and Matt called Chad and Tammy to invite them over to their house to talk to them. Chad said that's fine, but do not relate any questions to Tammy. Heather Daybell testified on the stand that she didn't care what Chad said. She relayed her questions to Tammy anyway because Tammy's a grown woman. Chad absolutely was trying to control the narrative.

And this thing that John Pryor is doing where he's bringing Emma up all the time. Well, Emma and Tammy were really, really, really close. close, weren't they? And Emma was everywhere that Tammy was. First of, I'm not saying they weren't close. This family was very enmeshed and they were very close. Chad made sure of it. He even forced his grown children to move to Rexburg. I've heard different stories about why, but I think he scared them. I think he told Garth that there was an evil spirit in his apartment in Utah. You better move with them. He got grown adults, children to move with them out of state because of visions and premonitions.

He ran his family like a cult. So I want to point out that it's fascinated to me that Emma Debel and Tammy Debel worked at the same elementary school. They went to Zumba together. They did clogging together. I'm sure that Tammy loves spending that time with her daughter and that they were genuinely close. But I can't help but suspect that Chad also planned and plotted this. Chad did not want Tammy alone ever. He wanted this family enmeshed.

Julie Roe. I'm bringing up Julie Roe for a second, but Julie Roe explained in an interview years and years ago that whenever she visited the Daybell family, they were all there together. This was an emmeshed family system. I think because Chad created that. He created fear of outsiders like Heather Daybell

or a 12-year-old boy that he deemed dark or people at or her visiting teacher. or the people at Tammy's work. This was Chad's plan all along. We've jokingly called on Hidden True Crime, Chad, an accidental cult leader, but in many ways, actually, I think he was planning and practicing being a cult leader

with his family years before he created his own. And this is how he ran his family like a cult. Tammy was never alone. So for that reason, because Chad liked to control that narrative, because he was so afraid of outside voices and influence, and because he controlled who was light and who was dark and who was talking to his wife,

to have those women come today and testify, Tammy was their friend, that Tammy was good, that Tammy was healthy, that Tammy cared about children, that Tammy Daibal was not who her husband has portrayed, and maybe not even Emma either, because Emma doesn't know all. And as much as Chad wants to narrate this idea that Emma was around, Tammy every second of the day because Emma Daybell will be testifying for the defense.

That is why John Pryor is setting that narrative. Oh, but Emma was always around. Tammy was always with Emma and Emma was always with Tammy. They sure were together a lot. And now I'm starting to wonder if Chad encouraged that. Well, why don't you two go together to Zamba and Zumba and clogging and work? I think that was Chad's safety net to know that. And so to find out that even the.

though they were always together and that Emma will be testifying. There are three other co-workers that will not say what Emma is going to say and will say the opposite of what Emma is going to say. Frightens Chad so much. He was so upset today. He was so angry and he was trying just so hard to sit, not show it with his pursed lips. And then to shake his head when they validated that his wife had even lost weight.

And, you know, I think she did. Not that it matters, I don't notice weight, but Tammy's weight has come up enough that I'm going to look at past pictures. And I can tell you that, like all of us, her weight fluctuated, and she was definitely thin when she passed. And so I believe, I believe these witnesses

that Tammy had even lost weight. And she was doing high fitness classes and Zumba and clogging and working. And you know what? As much as Chad wants to control this narrative about his wife, he lost today. He lost this afternoon. And we saw who he really was.

And that's why I just had to jump on and say something. And once again, as much as Chad dislikes women, it's going to be women giving these most powerful testimonies day after day. And it was just incredible. Even the DNA expert today. Thank you, Katie. And all of the experts, even the men, so many of the law enforcement that have never given up are men.

I never want to just say it's women. But I just, the irony of Chad and how much he seems to dislike. women and disregard women is why I'm always bringing up the women's testimonies. But the men's testimonies are just so powerful and they have never given up either. So all of these testimonies are incredible. But man, Chad was mad today and man, it was a day that these jurors, and afternoon these jurors will not forget. They were taking notes.

They noted in everyone felt closer to Tammy after today. There was so much emotion in the room. Thank you guys. May justice be served. It was a good day today. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the Internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent.

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