Hidden True Crime - Colby Ryan Interviews Dr. John | The Scar Wars Podcast

Episode Date: October 15, 2024

Dr. John Matthias and Colby sit down to discuss "The Lori Vallow Interview"// The Scar Wars Podcast EP4. This episode originally aired on Colby J. Ryan's YouTube channel on 10/14/24. SUBSCRIBE TO COLBY RYAN: https://www.youtube.com/@ColbyJRy Video Version of Podcast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugS7pGmAisY About Hidden True Crime: Lauren Matthias was a television reporter for a decade and has followed the Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell case since 2019. She and her husband, Dr. John Matthias, a criminal psychologist, started Hidden True Crime in 2020 with their Season, 'Beyond the Veil,' a psychological deep dive into the doomsday murders and prophet. What started as a simple conversation at their dinner table became a captivating podcast. Join the dynamic duo of Dr. John Matthias, a forensic psychologist, and Lauren Matthias, an investigative journalist, as they delve into the psychological facets of unthinkable crimes every week. Their unique perspectives and in-depth analysis offer a fresh take on true crime storytelling. Thank you for your support through sponsorships, subscribing, listening, and becoming a Patreon member at Patreon.com/HiddenTrueCrime Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Lately, I've been trying to be more intentional about what I wear, intentional about everything, just choosing pieces that feel effortless, still put together, timeless, but also not overthinking it every morning. It's why I keep going back to quince. Their pieces just make getting dressed easier and I feel so classy. I feel elevated. The fits are flattering. The fabric is really high quality. Everything is wearable day to day. I actually got this really, really, beautiful yellow V-neck midi dress from them, and I paired it with some Italian leather sandals. It's one of those outfits that just works. It feels polished but still comfortable. It's exactly what I've been looking for. What surprises me, though, is the quality for the price.

Quince uses premium materials like European linen, organic cotton, but they cut out the middleman. So everything is priced way lower than you'd expect. Refresh. your every day with luxury you can actually use. Head to quince.com slash hidden true crime for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quince, quince, q-u-in-c-com slash hidden true crime for free shipping and 365 day of returns. Quince.com slash hidden true crime. All right, guys, we got a very special guest tonight, Dr. John Matthias from Hidden True Crime. Um, he is somebody that I'm talking around him like he's not here, but he's somebody. I've actually known now since 2020. I met you in 2020. Yeah. Was it, was it 2020? Is that when

it was 2020? Yep. Wow. Okay. For some reason, I want to say 2021, but yeah, wow, that's. Yeah. I think it was 2020 because I think we still have the, uh, I think you're right. COVID protocol. Remember? Yeah, you're right. The masks and everything. we did yeah yeah and um i remember i didn't actually have any idea what the plan was i didn't know what we were doing there and she said you're going to talk to someone named dr john i said okay great you know i walked in not knowing what the expectation was and i think you and i talked for at least an hour plus yeah actually we talked for we talked for almost two hours yeah and um yeah you were the first person honestly the first person i heard speak about my mom without a bias i think you were

the first person that was just giving me an insight that i thought was really interesting because nobody had ever said anything no one ever looked at her as a human being she was just thrown as you know people have a tendency to say that person's crazy they're nuts they're this they're that So it's really easy to just write someone off and see that's the easy way out is to say oh someone's crazy But you had such a different approach and that really drew me to your perspective You know Yeah, I'm glad to hear that because I think that's one of the things we try to do on our channel is to Is to really dig a little deeper and add some depth of the cases we cover so that things are a little more

Complex Yeah, they're not they're not reduced to your mother's mother's a witch or your mother's evil or you know right so but there but there's a need jerk reaction to do that in the true crime world I'm sure you you've learned that pretty quickly so yeah um so thank you for saying that I appreciate yeah absolutely you know speaking speaking of your channel um I mentioned it before I think he was in one of the other podcast episodes but when I started to really pallet everything I really didn't know where to start because I didn't want to hear everybody's And what I mean by that is I didn't really listen to media for this whole case because it's too overwhelming.

What am I supposed to do? Sit there and listen to every different viewpoint. And there's so much information and then people's opinions and their videos. So when I actually, after Chad's trial, I was ready to actually just learn more about what I missed. And your guys, his channel is right there. And I remember the first thing I listened to was your reaction to the statement. And then again, it reaffirmed. it reaffirmed our conversation that you don't come in with that sword of judgment,

that you were really talking it out as you were going through it. And you and Lauren both. And I really appreciated that because then it gave me the thought. And I told you before we started recording, it was like I was talking to you guys in my head, like answering questions. So like, you know, but it was, that's like, again, it helped with processing. You know, so that's when it was like, maybe I want to talk more about this stuff. Yeah, I love that, by the way, because one of our goals in our channel is to facilitate dialogue or to provoke some discussion and dialogue.

And I don't, you know, I offer an opinion. I offer in a perspective. You know, it's a perspective informed by 20 plus years of professional experience, but it's still a perspective. And I, you know, I want people to engage with us. Yeah. I want people to have, like you did, like to have that dialogue as we talk. talk about something and try to break it down and make sense of it, I want people to own it and make it their own and to contribute to what we're talking about. So I really appreciate that you

were doing that. Yeah. And again, this world is so crazy. I'm sure you've seen. There's no rationality and people get really worked up. And I think it's great for people to share their opinions, but also at the same time, it was complex for me because I'm on the side of, I'm kind of the oddball in a sense of like, I don't sigh with my mom or like go with her at all. Like, yeah, of course she's my mom. But there is, there's two pieces of you. There's the complete disconnect because I know what it is. And then there's part of me that remembers her and knows her. And you guys stay kind of in between the two. Does that make sense? So that's why it was so easy. And I appreciate that. I just wanted you to know that publicly. I really do appreciate that.

that is that was the newest perspective I had so um one one of the questions that I had for you I watched your video about the interview and one of the questions I had for you not just your overall reaction because you kind of gave that right but based off of our conversation before you had heard her my mom speak I wanted to know what you think this is a broad question but I kind of want to ask you this question. What do you think as far as compared to where we were in 2020 when this has kind of had a million question marks? And now here we are 2024. It's way more concluded and wrapped up.

I wanted to know what you think about her diagnosis as a hyper religious. What was it? I don't even know her diagnosis that they gave her. I wanted to know what you think based off of what you heard her. say for herself because that was the whole point of the interview is to give her a platform to say her piece. So I wanted to know what you think about that. Yeah. I mean, you know, as a mental health professional, of course, I'm not supposed to diagnose someone I haven't seen. And since I haven't seen your mother or talk to her, you know, I can't really diagnose per se. So I would just

kind of defer to the professionals that did diagnose. And my sense is from what I I've seen, my sense is that they're pretty accurate. You know, it seems like, it seems like there have been multiple diagnoses they provided. Right. And they're all kind of in the same ballpark. You know, there's the delusional disorder with the hyperigial religiosity. Yeah. There's some personality disorder stuff that some people defined it.

Some didn't. Some said there might be some narcissism, right? So it's, you know, I think the people that did that work, I think they were pretty accurate. Yeah. From what I can tell, I mean, to come to a conclusion on my own, I'd have to meet your mom and probably do some testing. And as you and I both know, I'm sure she wouldn't be thrilled to be in that position.

She would avoid you like the play. Right. Yeah. I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sure her mom wouldn't want to be in the same room with me. So what was the term she used for me again? She said you're on Lucifer's team because you're part of the team. Right. Yeah, I'm on Lucifer's team.

And people on Lucifer's team typically aren't going to be allowed to, you know, interact with your mom too much. So I think the people that have talked about, you know, the people that have done this work, I think they've done a good job. And, you know, one way I can answer the question, though, is, When we first met in 2020 and, you know, Lauren and I were going through all the documents. And at that point, there were thousands of documents that had been released, which is one of the reasons I felt barely comfortable talking about the case, is because I felt like I had an abundance of information, including Chad Daybell's autobiography, right? And, like, nobody I assess in a prison has an autobiography.

No, that's crazy. Right? So it provides kind of a unique perspective, but we had all this information. And so I felt like I had a pretty good grasp of what was going on with your mom. And, you know, moving forward to where we are now from then, you know, it feels to me like a lot of this is the same. Yeah. You know, I don't feel like your mom has budged too much between fall of 2020. I want to say it was like October.

think it was like almost october wasn't it around this time of the year yeah yeah i don't know it was fall and um you know in many ways and i remember you you guys you and the netflix folks crew they played the infamous phone call yeah when you you know you would called your mom like a month or two prior to to the netflix uh filming when you and i met and you guys played that call for me and I was just blown away. I was like, holy cow. Like this is, this is pretty much, this is pretty much what we assessed your mom to be, right? Or to like that.

And moving forward, you know, going from that call to the call you just played a week ago, it doesn't feel like a lot has changed for your mom. I mean, I think your mom has kind of been stuck in this. really narrow silo and she hasn't really budged for many years i think yeah and that's i think that was what i think what's really interesting is in 2020 when she was arrested i called her i went to idaho and i saw her for the first time and i called her right after that trial that she had where she showed up and she smiled at Kay and Larry and Brandon. And I remember looking at her like, what was that?

Like it was, it was like seeing a different person. And I talked to her for a couple of months and she just kind of kept it together. Like she sounded like the same person and there was insanity. And her tone was, don't worry about it. Don't worry about the kids. Everything's fine. I promise you, like basically just reassurance of I'm the same. And this is all about a proportion.

That's all I ever heard every day. And her and I weren't having these conversations where it was really a ton of back and forth. It was kind of like, okay, it's another day. It's in the middle of COVID. You know, what's the deal? Like what she's like, I'm working on it. You know, so there's like this idea. Well, okay, there's no way.

There's no way it's this bad. Right. Maybe the media is blowing this out of proportion or something else is going on. But there's just no way it's a worst case scenario. And after she. After, so actually the last time we spoke, I spoke about this not too long ago, the first thing she says in our call one random day is she goes, do you remember about Abraham and Isaac? And I remember thinking in my head, why would you ever bring that up? Yeah.

And for anybody who doesn't know what that is, that's the story about Abraham being asked by God to sacrifice Isaac, his son. and he doesn't have to end up doing it, but it was a test of faith. But for her to even bring up child sacrifice on a phone call with me, that's when my, that's when I kind of just, I completely stopped talking to her.

And I don't think it was two weeks later that they called me. And so the reason I ask you that question is because when I called her again, obviously I'm like, what are you, how could you talk to me? Yeah.

And speak to me like this. Like we're just talking and have all this be going on in the background and act like nothing ever happened. And so I think it took me years to believe that there was actually something rig. Because in my mind, I'm like, you know exactly what you did. You know exactly what this is. There's no way you're missing. I don't care what they diagnose you with. Yeah.

But going into this last call, she doubled down harder than ever, harder than ever. And so the reason I was asking that question is because. And you just made a great point is she hasn't changed this stuff. And I guess in my perspective as a son, I never looked at it that way. But she doesn't want to change her mind about what happened. Yeah, yeah. I think there's a deep level of denial that it would be really, really hard to break through. Yeah.

And, you know, in fact, one of the things we talked about four years ago with the Netflix people was, were there signs of some of this before? You know, right? Were there some red flags in your childhood? And you talked about a few of them. I thought that was interesting. You know, I haven't shared the Netflix people asked me not to share any of that,

so I never did. Although I guess technically we probably could have. Right. But especially since the documentary was released like, what, two years ago now, a year? Yeah. Yeah, they, I don't even remember. they just yeah that's something else that whole documentary um yeah but yeah i mean that conversation

we had i felt like honestly went to waste too because i thought we made i think that you were helping me in that time because it was fresh you know again we just found out the summer so it was very fresh and the whole goal was to talk about that kind of thing like growing up and that stuff and they just they didn't want to use that you know they had a different kind of spin to it but But the whole point of having that conversation with you is like I don't think I was ready to process that. And now that I'm older, and it's the hardest thing ever actually, because, you know, I had no idea what it would be like to release this. You know, I asked her to interview. So it was never ever people.

I've seen people be like, did she know she 1,000% new? I think I asked her three times before I said, as Clear's Day, this is your opportunity to say what you want. and I don't think a lot of people know she's wanted to say stuff apparently well you you at the end you told her you said yeah this is going to be public so

yeah yeah she knew it it was not a it was not a secret so anything she said even though she kept saying that she's like I don't want this to be public whatever I was like well you said it in your statement whatever it is you said you said it you just didn't say it and I think that was the hardest part

is once I did that and I started seeing some of the comments and I started thinking back about what it was really like I feel like I have a train of stuff I've got to unpack and remembering. You know, one of the things that's hard too

is her bringing up the end of the world all the time. Yeah. And that's a hard thing to have weighing on you. Go ahead, sorry. Yeah, no, you talked about that during our interview four years ago.

Yeah. You know, one thing you talked about back then that would probably be relevant to diagnosing her to some degree was the fact that she was so extreme in some ways, right? Like her emotions and her behaviors, right? Could you talk a little bit about that? Yeah, absolutely. One thing that it's really hard to process now because it's making me realize what it was like. You know, it's like, man, this is how it really was. Because I guess when you're a kid, you just kind of function at whatever ability you have.

You know, you just don't know anything different. And so we would have conversations. And I felt like I could never tell my mom something because she would have a worse reaction than anything. Right. So a simple thing is you break a vase, you go tell your mom I broke the vase. The conversation thereafter would be her having a level 10 reaction to something that's more of a level three. And so that was the average type of thing. So I became way more clammed up.

And I kind of just always became a people pleaser because I needed to cater to not upsetting her, a very emotional thing. And I just started processing that, you know, because I'm like, why am I always trying to be beyond nice? When it's not even nice, you're literally just neglecting yourself to please someone else. That's not the type of life I want. But, you know, again, like, I felt like I burdened her. And so because she's, how do I put this? She's very fantastical. My mom, the more I realize, because now that I'm a parent.

And I just, that's the best, the best example I could give you now. Now that I have girls, my girls. And I think about the stuff she did. I'm like, bro, I'd never do that to my daughters. Like, I would never just make it a fun. Everything's happy. Let's just try to play it off. Like every time it was hard for us, you just run.

That was the answer. And you grow up like that, you have to break that cycle. You can't run when it gets hard. And you just can't. tune out, right? But one of the other things that was really hard too is, is there was never that ability to lean on her for me because I couldn't really burden her with emotions

because I was afraid of her reaction. And also the phantasical part was, I feel like we didn't live in really a true reality. It was always kind of like, we just did the weirdest stuff. We moved every single year. We moved sometimes middle of the semester and school year. And just things that I'm like, what was the purpose of that?

Like who was green lighting that? Like, why would you do that? And I get it. There's circumstances. I don't know about I was a kid. But to constantly have to move and change your environment and constantly be talking about the end of the world and constantly telling me as a child, I'm going to die soon, right?

Like, why are you telling me at eight years old, your death dates coming up in two years? That's the type of stuff I'm realizing that that crap affects you. Yeah. Yeah, that was something we did not talk about four years ago. But was that, so the dying soon, was that a function of the apocalypse coming? I don't, it didn't.

So here's the weird thing, right? I'm going to get into this a little bit deeper. Okay. So she started off telling me when I was younger about her dying soon. This became a thing. I remember she sat me down in the kitchen and she says something about having only two years to live. And I must have been eight, eight or nine. And she was my whole world.

Like she was the only person I really clung to besides my grandparents. But she kept giving. this idea, I'm going to be dead soon. That was basically the tone of every time she talked to me. She used to say it. Like, I'm going to die soon. There was an obsession of death. So she was, she was talking about herself or you or both?

Her, just her. She was going to die. That was what stuff she used to tell me. She just sent me down and say, I'm going to be gone soon. And you can't prepare for that. Like, as a kid, you can't do anything about that. I don't, I don't know if she ever said that to Tiley. I think she was too little.

but she felt the need to tell me that. And then she started becoming way more in the times. And I remember we started doing the food storage. Now, at the same time, the LDS church was telling people to get prepared. And I think that she took that idea and blew it through. Like now it's all about the end of the world. And I think a lot of it was also that, too, Now that I'm older, I think she thought the 2012 thing was going to happen.

I think a lot of this was what I mean by fantastical is incorporating movies, incorporating books, incorporating things that have absolutely nothing to do with reality. Now it's all just a set as a big pool of whatever, you know, fantasy you live in. So she started kind of having that with the in times thing. And I think she started feeling like that was part of her life in some way, you know, the end. Yeah. And yeah, that's interesting. Oftentimes people that have delusions, they have a more difficult time distinguishing fantasy from reality. Right.

That, you know, their memories become vague. there's these things we have that we have these source memories that kind of let us know that something's real or something we've experienced and when there's confusion about source memories versus say

fictional memories you know from watching a television show or yeah or right or a movie and you're referencing the movie like 2012 right or that was I think that was wasn't that the year that wasn't that the year that Nostradamus

predicted the end of the world or something. Yeah, it's like the Aztec calendar stopped there and all kinds of stuff. And so people really believed. And that was, I think, the reason why the movie kind of popularized, popularized. But it was because people really truly believe that 2012 was going to be the end of the world. But she was kind of on that fad of it the whole time. So it wasn't something that just popped or became new. so right so she was she was on that bandwagon for sure yeah yeah and but it wasn't just that i mean

in the call you you she referenced the chosen right she referenced like a specific a specific a season and a specific episode of the chosen and um right and when you and i talked you talked about her obsession with twilight yeah which was which was before any of this i mean your your mother seems to have this history of, you know, being unable to distinguish between pop culture, fictional references, and reality. Exactly. And I think that's what, you know, because I know her so well, the stuff I started hearing about, she started talking about, so she loved the idea of how the vampires and Twilight basically

became translated beings. So they're almost like, in a sense, it's almost a tiny, tiny bit biblical. Okay, I'm not going to give Twilight that much room. But there's this idea that you go. I was just about to ask

if the vampires could be converted. Yeah. Right. LDS. That's kind of the point. The lady who wrote it was LDS. I think she stole. she stole some stuff out, right?

I think what in the movies, right, I don't know if you've seen them, but in the movies, when you get bit by the... Yeah, I don't know if I should acknowledge whether I have or not. No, don't say it. I'll be honest. I've seen them. I'll talk for you. I think I'm trying to debate here whether if I say I've seen them, that would help my reputation or not. But, okay, let's put it like this.

When you, when you talked about this, um, after the Netflix interview. Yeah. And, and, you know, at that point I had not seen Twilight or read Twilight. And I felt like to get up to speed,

I had to watch. So he binged them. He's team Edward and team Jacob. So I, so I, it was research. I did. It was research.

And actually, you know, the funny thing is that, uh, so when I got back from, Netflix interviews. I did, I did watch it. And it did help me. I think it really did help me understand your problem. Yeah. Yeah. No lie. Yeah. I think that's the, the, here's the thing. It's like, I've had to find how funny this really is because it's still ridiculous. I'm sorry. Like,

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That's happy H-A-P-P-P-Y mammoth, M-A-M-M-O-T-H.com. Just use the code hidden true crime at checkout. That's code hidden true crime. Use that with happy mammoth.com for 15% off today. She dragged me to go see him. And in Twilight, her obsession was the vampires being bitten and then translated over to being a vampire. And in that, they have the skin, the perfect bodies again is all the stuff. It's almost like what biblical resurrection is. But when I started hearing her what she was saying to other people, and this is all just little tidbits. But I'm like, you literally got that from Twilight.

So how did it go from this idea that you? don't need to eat, drink, or sleep that you don't bleed anymore. You're not Spider-Man. Okay. Right? You've seen Spider-Man too. He says, punch me. I'll bleed. You're going to believe. This is when I was like, this is so crazy to me because how are we at this point? How are we at a point where this is something we watched or consumed in media? And now you've brought it in so deep, the concept, and made it into religion. That is when I was like, this, there has to be something. more here because there's no way I'm going to watch Star Wars and then go around trying to force choke. Like I don't I don't translate the movie to my real life. So I guess that's when I started hitting me.

It's like, okay, maybe there is actually something more here because I know she knows what she did was wrong in the heart of her heart of hearts. But this idea of bringing the media in and Chad's saying he's the zombies. I asked her point blank about the zombie. She said she never said it. It's whatever. You know, so on that issue, by the way, yeah, you know, it's, she did say that, but there's, there's a lot of text between Chad and her where Chad's talking about destroying zombies and going on and killing zombies. And your mother replies with, you know, I don't know, I'm trying to remember how she replied. I don't think she said the word zombies. but she called them Zs. She called them Zs. What are you referring? Well, what's the difference?

You're calling people zombies. Right. What's a difference, right? Like, so it shows the level of denial with your mother. Like, just because she didn't say it, just because she didn't use the word zombie. Right. Or you can't find her saying the exact word zombie. It's she didn't say it.

Yeah. Right. Then she didn't believe it or she didn't, right? Come on, because the evidence shows otherwise. And that was the hardest part. of the interview. Like, I walked in there knowing we, I'm not having a conversation like you and I. You and I could talk about anything and go back and forth.

I knew that wasn't going to happen. So I actually had a list of questions. I was going to ask her about Chad. I was going to ask her about, I asked her point blank about the zombies, but it cut out. So then the audio was gone. I don't know what happened to that. So like there's a whole plan of the questions I had because I started doing some research too.

And one of the movies or shows I watch was Walking Dead, which I'm sure people have seen is a great show. Because I was interested. I was like what some part of me wants to understand the pop culture references to your spirituality. And the most popular thing I know about is Walking Dead. There's lots of zombie movies. But in the show, in the show, and I'm glad we're bringing this up because in the show, Herschel is someone they meet. Spoiler alert.

Okay. And in the show, his biggest thing is that you can't kill the zombies because they're his family members. And he believes they're in there. He doesn't believe that they're gone. And then the other side is them trying to explain to him, no, they're not the same. They're not in there. There's nothing in there. And hearing them refer to human beings and talk about the biblical parts where I brought it up to her in the interview and said, okay, so let's refer.

And it was actually not what I think I said, it was John 5. it's Mark 5. And I gave her that exact example to say, the person you say you serve Jesus, encounter demons in the Bible. And the first thing he does is cast them out and the man is returned back to normal. So how do you take the idea of what basically the walking dead is

and take this idea of full on body possession and mix it all together and put it together? And it just has been eating me away for years because I can't understand. I can't get a straight answer out of her. And I knew I probably wouldn't. But. Yeah, yeah.

And I think when you, you know, when you were talking about Twilight and some of the pop cultural references, you know, it started occurring to me. I mean, we talked about this a little bit in our podcast, but that I started feeling like there's a kind of desperation. Yeah. You know, even going back way before Chad Daybell, your mother, it almost seems like to me there's like this void or this, right? There's this abyss in your mom that she's trying to fill with something. I don't know, whatever that is. Right. And the pop culture and all this stuff, she just keeps throwing this in there to see if it sticks.

Yeah. If it's going to fill it, right? Because whatever this void is, it seems endless in your mom. And like, not only that. it feels like there's this desperation to fill it, you know? And I think, given that desperation, like,

it's a losing battle because you can throw anything in that void. Oh, absolutely. And it's not going to work. It's going to leave you feeling empty. And there's almost a sense I have with your mom in which, you know, there's this, like,

and it's sad too, right? Like it's, yeah, it is sad. It's very sad because it never had to come to this, you know, that there's this,

emptiness in your mom, this loneliness that she just can't find a way to overcome. Yeah. I think what I assessed, and I've never said this before, but I would rather say it with you because this is the conversation, is my assessment is probably basic, but I know her very well. And I think what happened is she needed to feel like all the suffering and hardship of her life had a purpose. And she didn't believe enough in just the grace.

And at least from me, the idea, the Christian value. And I think Christianity and LDS are different. I don't think people separate them, but they are in a lot of different ways. But she couldn't just accept being a person. She couldn't accept the idea that hardship had befallen her. And so she needed that set out on a quest. I'm so special. And I think the hardest part I had to come to was how narcissistic that really

is is needing to be felt like you are the chosen one like you're the top of the top excuse me and i think chad saw that in her that desperation because she's very forthcoming she'll just word vomit her stuff out and kind of give people maybe if they're manipulative ammo and i think what she did was just shown him so much attention was so happy about his books and he found that way to make her feel and tell her all these sweet nothings literally just nothings that you are all this all this stuff and she said in her call and i i've been processing that as her saying you know jesus told me your your life has a purpose it's my purpose it's for me you're all of it is is has meaning she's searching so deeply for meaning she couldn't

find it in our family she i guess she couldn't find it right in front of her because she was blinded by all the fantasical ideas of being the chosen one or being something more than you are. And when she doubled down in that and kept saying, you know, this is all because of Jesus. I just wanted to scream. What are you talking about? Why can't you, why couldn't you have just been happy with the life that God gave you? And that you had all these people who loved you and you could have worked on your stuff in therapy and you could have had, what everybody would dream of. People don't have their families. You have it right here.

So I don't know. That would be my take in all of that. Yeah, no, that's a great analysis. Thanks for sharing that. I think our analysis is a version of that. And of course, don't forget the Chad. Yeah. Refer to your mom repeatedly as a goddess.

Like, I guess if you want to, if you want to win someone over, get them to believe that they're a goddess, right? I guess. Worship them. Yeah. But if you want to be worshipped, then that's some serious stuff right there. Because you can't serve. This is just the truth.

You can't say, I want to serve Jesus. He's my master. He's this person. And then also want to be worshipped as a goddess. Gosh. Yeah. There's stuff is hard. It's so hard.

It was so hard to listen to the tiniest bit ever. When Ray Hermesio was referring to them, you could tell he's just so bothered. he's like two little school kids just whisper into each other. It's just tough. I just because I'm like, what are you doing? I just, it's unrecognizable. You know, she's, it became, it's like, and I'm such a nerd when it comes to Star Wars, but I'll reference it.

It's like watching Anakin go to Vader. It's what it was like. I'm not saying she's the chosen one. Let me be clear. And I'm not saying she was the best guy ever. But it's like watching someone go from this point to doing the worst thing ever to becoming a villain. And that's what it was like for me. Because I'm like, I knew you before this.

Yeah. So how in the world? How in the world did you get here? So that was kind of the main interest of the interview too. Would she answer those questions in an interview style? Would she really give me an answer? And the more I listened to it, the more dancing I heard. But at first it was emotional.

It's hard to talk to her. And the stuff she said was ridiculous. Just ridiculous. So what do you do with that? Yeah, that's a question I think I would love to ask you. You know, what, number one, I mean, what, what do you think of what your mother said? And what do you do with it, right? Yeah.

Have you, I'm sure you've given that some thoughts since you released it. Oh, 100%. Um, the number one thing is I already knew the evidence when I called her. So I knew she was going to say something wild because her statement is clear saying nothing happened, right? So I'm like, okay, just be specific now because you said it. So be specific. And then when she verbally said that Tiley did it all, it was like a snapping point. I, I just didn't know.

there's just nothing left in my mind because like you know you set up an interview you have questions you want to keep it linear you want to try to keep it on track and once she said it it was just i was like how could you blame my little sister after you know you murdered her and then pin it on her and sit to me and tell me you're innocent and not only are you innocent that you are doing this to protect her because it's either it's one of the is it for jesus or is it to protect tyly because the story you made up is so out of this world i can't even i can't even fathom how you came up with it you know there's no evidence there it's zero you know that's not true at all you know tyly was taken you know jj was taken they have all

your text, email, everything that you did. So to pitch it to me as if this is what really happened. And then to refer to Job, refer to people who have suffered, refer to herself as suffering for a good cause, to tell me how much she loves Tiley, how much she loves JJ, how much she loves me.

To say Charles was killed, or I'm sorry, died. All of it. I think she said passed away. Passed away. He passed away, right? He was a murder. She made it in her mind and has been repeating it.

And that's where it left me. I said, I'll never get anything more than this, I don't think, ever. Well, take me back to that moment, you know. So, I mean, one thing I really appreciated about, and a lot of people I think appreciated about your interview was that you showed a lot of restraint. You know, you said early on, look, I'm going to do all I can to listen to her. Yeah. you know, as opposed to the call in 2020 that you played for me

where you were screaming at her to some degree, right? You were so angry. Yeah. You know, justifiably so, but you were really, really angry at her. And that was the call that ended up in court, too, by the way. But here you wanted to get her side. And, you know, so you just listened to that and you didn't really react. What were you, tell us what you were thinking about when she said?

that. I mean, what was going through your mind at that point? I didn't know what she was going to say, right? I'm anticipating something stupid, right? I'm just anticipating her to say something to the whole time. It was just stupid. And I remember, before I get to that real quick, I remember one of the most, I don't know if this happened before or after, but there was a moment when she was telling me about her encounter with Jesus and then how she met Lucifer. And I started crying again because I'm like, man, you're so far gone. There's just these moments when I'm speaking to her. So I said, look, I want to know what happened.

Because at this point, the phone has to cut out so many times. There's people, you know, screaming in the background, literally. Like, it's just, it's a chaotic phone call. There's no order. She's already taking me off the rails emotionally. I'm trying to keep it together. So I said, look, forget everything else really right now. I have a lot of questions that I've had organized.

I'm just going to ask you. And when she started to explain herself and she started to victimize herself and then not only victimize herself, but then now Tiley is the ultimate bad guy. Right. Yeah. I had to turn a switch off. That's all I can really explain it. Like I had to switch off that piece of me because I could as calmly as I wanted to. to say it too, I would have said, well, then what evidence do you have of that? Why didn't you

could just call the cops? Why didn't you call the cops? Any person would, you know, who went and took care of the kids after then? And then what? You were never going to tell anybody in the family. You wouldn't tell anybody's family members that love them. You were just, she said, I didn't want to tell anybody. I wasn't rational. Okay, this wasn't all about you, but in her mind it was. So I think a part of me just shut off. And this was the reason also, John, that I interviewed her because a part of me needed a base of ground where it felt like it wasn't just me calling her. And so I said, I'm going to interview her because it gives me an organized list of

questions that I genuinely have for myself, but I'll conduct it as if I'm talking to her in an interview. She'll answer a question and then I'll go to the next one and we'll talk it through and see what she says. But when she blamed Tyley for everything. And then she told me that Tyley's desire was to be cremated. I

wanted to vomit. And I just I've never, I couldn't have, you couldn't pick. You couldn't make it worse. When I've said this before about the media, I've said this before about this case, every time you feel like you've healed from your you have a scar left, something.

You know, finally a little bit healing. over that was like sticking a knife in and cutting it right back open deeper than the first one because how in the world are you going to pitch me that when that's not even we know that's not true there's not even a slight bit of evidence and then to say well did you know about her desires like she was just so calm and i guess in that moment i just shut it off but my my my first thought was how could you make this worse how could you ever blame tightly for this How could you stoop that low? How?

Yeah. You know? Yeah. Um, right. Yeah, it's a good question. And I mean, she truly just, that's when I was like, okay, I'm never going to get anywhere with you. Ever.

You know, a part of me did it also because I thought in my mind for a couple of years now. Like, what if, what if she did pass away? And I never talked to her again, never said anything. Maybe I'd regret it. You know, so I thought, maybe this is the time. Maybe this is the time sooner than later. And so I made a plan and I asked her about it and we did it. And, you know, as hard as this is going to sound, I think it was a huge relief to me to know I left no stone unturned with her.

I tried. I gave it everything I had. I tried. I never let her in a question. I never tried to get her to say something. I just let her speak and I try to give her the floor and I try to let her, you know, you choose what comes out of your mouth. And that's what she chose to say to me and to the public.

So that was where I was at. It just, I can't believe that's what you would choose to say. And yet, in spite of, all those statements, all those nonsensical statements she was making, she kept saying throughout, you know how much I love you. Yeah, that was that. Right? She kept, she kept, you know, when, when Lauren and I processed it,

you know, we kind of said, man, that was so manipulative, right? She's, yeah, she's trying to bring Colby back into the, to the nest or to the fold, right? Yeah, yeah. She doesn't want to let you go. And I mean, she just kept referencing how much she loves you and how much, how you and her were the only ones who really knew. Yeah. Yeah. Tiley and JJ, right? And it was just this constant, repetitive, you know, theme for your mom about, you know, how much I love you.

You know how much I love you. You know, you're the most important one to me, right? And, man, that was, what was that like for you? Oh, my gosh. So the first, I'll be honest with you, the first two days after, after the interview, right, I hadn't, I didn't even know if I posted or anything. Like, I really spent the time to think it through and really think and pray on it. And I just remember, like, I was so emotional because, like, I never had this feeling where it was like a part of you is so understanding and so realistic about what this is, what she's saying, the situation. And then the other part of you is like, a little kid who wants to like have his mom and I was like what is going on with me what is wrong with me why would I ever entertain that right like I was fighting this piece of me I didn't know existed because I've you know with all of this happening so much trauma you don't have time she was the last person

that I would have even picked the process there's just too much in front of it and I think after a while like wow like a part of me misses this person misses my mom wishes that this was what I've had, I wish she was a normal person and all these other thoughts. So those first two days, I was just emotionally wrecked. And then I think it was after I posted it and people started saying, and then I listened to your guys' video and people were saying how narcissistic she is and how horrible this is and how she really was, it really beyond open my eyes because then I'm like, wait, yeah, this is horrible.

Like, this is her trying to pull me in on how. her BS by using the past and anchoring. And I think you said it best in your video. I don't want to spoil it for anybody who hasn't seen it. But you did say that this whole thing is like her trying to hold on to him because it's all she's got left. And I try to make it clear with her. I'm not in your corner. And it's hard for me to say that to her. But it's true. I'm not in your corner. And I needed her to know it regardless of where she's at mentally. I had to say those words, I think for myself and say, I'm saying this right now. We're not, this isn't the beginning of a relationship again. I'm not calling you four years later so we can tip back off and start

this relationship all over again. This is basically my goodbye to you. And a part of the interview kind of was me saying goodbye to her in my own way. But she was just so on me and responsive. She, you know what? She said, she goes, when do you think I changed? I've been a wonderful mother for 50 years. I said, I'm 28. How have you been a wonderful mother for 50? You haven't been a mom for 50. You're barely over 50.

What are you talking about? So there's so much nonsensical. She even, and, you know, when she brought up Ava, I wanted to snap on her. I wanted to snap on her the whole time. But just to say stupid things like that to me, to pull me in as if you are this spiritual person who's having these experience, that my daughter left the, her spirit left the womb to come comfort you. Tiley and J.G left heaven to come to comfort you.

It was so sickening. But in that, you know, in that moment, I was trying to just zip it the best I could and just let her say it. Because I guess a part of me can say, I don't have a ton of other questions now. I mean, I have a ton of questions about my dad, but I might get the same thing. I might get the exact same thing. She literally referred to him as dying. So what is the point of trying to get these things? I feel like I have to learn to just accept, and that helped me,

accept that she's just, whatever the word is, gone. She's gone. And she doesn't even want to try to be here. Yeah, I think you just said something important earlier about, there's a part of you that the kid in you, that still wants to connect. to his mother, right? I mean, that part of you is never going to leave. Yeah. Right. There's always a part of us that no matter how cruel our mothers are or our parents are to us, we still want them

to love us. We still want to be connected to them, right? And I definitely think she was, she was appealing to that part of you. Yeah. And that was what was hard. That's what hurt. you know because I haven't let I think a part of me just kind of killed her off in my mind as as brutal as that sounds I just I kind of accepted her death almost but then a part of me is like she's not dead she's still here she's right there she's coming up I see her she's right there in the courtroom I'm testifying here about what she's done to my family and a part of you I never processed the part of me that cares about her her and I never had a close part of the book right i think with death and i think i mentioned this with death there's almost a part of you

that eventually can come around to a little bit of acceptance of understanding they're not here anymore right she's alive she's alive so what do you do with that and if anybody or anything is a zombie it's like hers i would have wanted almost said it to her because i'm like this is what i feel like a zombie is it's a person who's standing in front of you who no longer is is there that's what it's like talking to. You're like talking to someone who's inside my mom's body. You're not even close to the same person. So how do you process that? What do you do with that? And I think a part of me after the interview just realized the thing I needed was just to give her one opportunity in a common environment to explain her version. And gosh, I feel at first, after she said that, and I was like,

man, maybe this all was just a big mistake because of what she said. Because I'm like, I I don't want her tarnishing Tiley's name in any way, shape, or form. No one believes her, but the fact that she would even say it, the fact that she would even spit that out of her mouth was so hard to pallet, you know. Yeah. Yeah. It was, it's astounding. Yeah.

You know, it's astounding because it's not consistent with any of the evidence. No. Right? It's not consistent with anything we know about the case. but sometimes when things are really unbearable and intolerable, you know, we take certain elements of ourselves that we can't cope with and we put them on someone else. Yeah.

And I think that's what she's doing. You know, Tiley's like a stand-in for herself. Yeah, I thought that was incredibly interesting for you to bring up, too, because I never really looked at it like that. I've in my mind and I'm just I'm just learning all these words and all these ideas but I never looked at it from a perspective. This is actually something Kelsey was bringing up is Tiley being the scapego and me being the golden child. And I didn't really understand what that meant because I never looked at it in any type of way. I didn't know what that meant at all.

And it makes a lot of sense because Tiley was, I think Tiley got to. sick and I know she to go to the hospital but I also know that Tiley really needed attention for my mom and I think sometimes it was for attention and I'm not trying to ever tarnish my sister's name

but there's a lot of other pieces of this that I think my mom had animosity towards Tiley and I think that that is what is so hard to palate because it feels like to me that her the way that happened with Tiley

and her murder felt like somebody was angry because you don't do that ever to anybody and it just took so long to get to that point where I could accept that that was the fact but there there was animosity there and they did butt heads a lot and I think that for her though to still to sit there and play both sides is crazy how can you be so too-faced how can you say I'm defending tightly yet blame her but you're literally sitting here telling me her brother, your son, that she did all of this and that's her fault.

But I'm, Lori, am taking the, I'm standing in the gap. I'm taking all the blame for this. It's not my fault. It's her fault. But it's because I'm a good mom.

And I'm like, it's just so disconnected that I think a part of me could have almost accepted that immediately when she said it. Is this is so ridiculous that, What's the point of talking? I'm not going to rebuttal you. If you're going to say something that out of pocket, then this isn't a conversation and there's nothing left to be said.

You're obviously disconnected in there. And I think a part of me needed that full realization, though, how far gone she is and say this is not on me. I don't know what that kid part of me or whatever it is to save your mom, try to somehow felt the responsibility of trying to save whatever was left and try to like get. I thought maybe I'll get through to her. maybe something I say will get her to change her in her tune and maybe she'll finally accept the reality

and I don't need an apology. I'm not begging her for an apology because I'm not going to ask her for something that she's not going to give me. But I felt the responsibility. It would be nice if she volunteered it, but she's nowhere near that point. Exactly. And that's the point. You'll take it if she's honest about it. Yeah. And that's the thing. This is what really frustrated me when I processed the interview is one of the things she said to me was I'm sorry I couldn't do anything about this and you're keeping me out of your lives. I kind of get why you're doing that. Wait, you just told me you're innocent and there's no reason. If you didn't, if you, if you did nothing, then you wouldn't understand why I'm keeping you out of my life. You see what I'm

saying? And you brought this point up and I thought that was an incredible good point is the contradictions to herself are so apparent. So she kept saying one thing that completely contradicts the other thing she said. And it was just the simplicity of her saying, like, I understand why you're keeping out of your life. I get it. And I'm like, wait, why would you be okay with that if this is none of your fault? Nothing is your fault. Why would you be okay with that?

He said, I didn't do anything wrong. Yeah. Stand on it. So what about the the parts about not just blaming tyly but saying that tyly did it to spite your mother that's why would okay let's just be logical why would tylee kill jj her little brother that she absolutely loves right in to piss my mom off and kill herself what who wins in that game let's just Let's just pull it out like that. Who would win there?

It'd be one thing if you killed someone, like she killed him and ran away or something. It doesn't make any. Why would you even say that? There's no reason Tiley would do something because that's the point. Now it's Tiley did it by accident, right? Another contradiction. Tiley either accidentally held J.J. down too long or Tiley did it in spite. Those are two completely different avenues.

So what are you talking about? And that's the point. She can't keep herself together. Right. She said Ava was her grandma. Ava's not her grandma. So I don't, I just,

that was the thing I really got back from it though too, is being able to pick up on that stuff and you guys brought it up on your channel. And then I listened to it again and started hearing even more. And one thing that really I want to ask you about is you said this in your video, but I wanted to ask you is what did you think about when she was talking about in my mind? I didn't even know she said it more than once until I watched your video.

What did you think about? Yeah, that really stuck out to me because it suggests there might be a little bit of doubt. I think it suggests that she's qualifying what she's saying. Right. That maybe it's not true, right? Maybe if there is a glimmer of hope, right? that maybe she can come to terms with that, with what happened and what she did,

maybe that's it. Yeah. Because I think there's almost an acknowledgement there that maybe what she's saying isn't true. Maybe what she's saying isn't accurate. She's made it true to her, but maybe she knows at some level that it's just in her mind. It's not in yours.

Right. Right. It's not in the court's mind. It's not in the jury. mind, but in her mind, this is how she see it. I mean, because even when I interview the most hardened criminals, right, they don't, they don't use that type of language. Yeah.

You know, they don't say in my mind, I mean, because that's, to me, that's like a tell. If they're saying that, then I'm going to, I'm going to put in my notes a big question mark and I'm going to say, wait a minute, like this, right. This guy knows he's telling me something that's false. Yeah, exactly. And I didn't know she said it more than once. Oh, yeah. I remember she said it the one time she said, I said, so all of this is to protect Tiley's name.

I want to hear you say that. And she said, in my mind, yes. And I thought, what an odd thing to say. Because like you said, why is it in your mind? Why would you even qualify it as a thought in your own mind? Because you know it's not true. And here was the hardest part, and I told you before, is going back. to 2019 what was it

2019 I found out she was married to Chad the kids are missing you know everything had already happened I found out that day Alex died same day all of that was in one day on and on December 19th and all of a sudden she's just like this villain and I see Nate Eaton go find her

in Hawaii and the kids aren't there and I'm like this is this person is like not the same person and I think that's what's so hard is in those conversations that's I had three conversations with their total in the whole span of after they found the kids. Okay.

And every time, well, especially that first time we talked in that, in that call, her just dismissing and middle fingering. And then in this call, I don't do that to you. I just was told not to tell you. I'm like, you literally said under your breath, where were you when that happened? Like, there's so many ways I could have just said what she said, said this is what you said before and this is where it you're saying now. None of this makes any sense.

Like it's one way or the other. And then you were the only one that ever took care of them and now you're grouping me in there. So am I special now? Right. So it's really, I think that was the hard part is what is in your mind? Because you're obviously fabricating all this stuff. You had, from what I understand, you had Chad telling you all of this crazy stuff. But my question is, how do you buy it?

I could tell you anything right now. That doesn't mean that you buy it, especially when it comes to religious beliefs. And I think that's where it's like my question becomes, what was really going on in her mind to cross over from Twilight to reality? How did you take all these aspects of your favorite romance novels and these things that you are fantasizing that are great and mix it all together.

And, you know, it was really interesting. She calls Jesus my Jesus. Yeah. Right? So what is my mean? What does that mean? You know? And it's, it's, keep in mind, it's not just Twilight.

It's also she's reading Julie Roe. Yeah. You and I talked about that, right? She starts reading Julie Roe. She starts reading some of these more extremist Mormon, I don't know what to call. I don't want to say prophets. self-proclaimed profits.

Self-proclaimed profits. I don't know. False prophets. Let's say it out loud. False profits. As straight as you can get it. Right. So she's combining Twilight with this other material, you know, Julie Roe.

She's reading Chad at some point, way before she meets Chad, right? Like all of this is kind of, you know, mixing around. It's percolating in her mind, right? but I don't, but yeah, how does she, how does she land where she lands? Why, you know, does, I mean, I think part, you talked about this idea that, she talked about the apocalypse all the time, right? We talked about that four years ago. Yeah, yep.

You know, that you got, she was obsessed with the apocalypse, which, which apparently wasn't, uncommon, I guess, in the Cox family. I guess it was sort of in the family culture. Do you remember that? Did the rest of her family, you know, read and talk about the apocalypse all the time? Or do you just remember it mainly being your mom? She was really the main person in it. Like I said, at that time, within that time frame, I think the LD.S church was heavy on like, go get your, go get your, go get your, food storage in case something happens. There's going to be these LDS camps that they set up. So there was like this idea that it's coming and just be prepared for it. And then there was the people who were taking the doomsday prepper type of advancements where it's like an obsession where now

you basically count down to that time. So everybody had some level of food prep. I think a lot, mostly a lot of LDS people do, but she was the leader of this. And I think that was the other thing is like those books and that idea. I remember, I don't know if I should tell a story about Kelsey, but I'm going to try my best. We sat down, I think we were dating, maybe engaged, and she pulled her and I alone into the office and starts telling us about the stars aligning, right, and how this was a really big deal that there was going to be this perfect, alignment. And I thought, I remember in that moment, I thought, well, that happens in Hercules. And that's when the Titans are released in the movie Hercules, which we watched growing up.

And so I think that was one of my first thoughts I remember immediately connecting fiction and reality. And this idea that somehow she's picking that up. But she was showing us these articles and they were talking about how this is going to, I don't remember. what cosmic thing, but she's so convinced and convicted of what she's saying. It sounds very probable in a sense at first. And this is just in that way, like little things like that. Like, oh, the stars are aligning. Here's all these articles supporting that the stars are aligning. And this is what we think, this is what I think it means. And it's kind of like, whoa, that would be scary. That'd be the end of the world. So, and I'm going to say something that that I think is a little bit, it was just the truth and it was kind of a dark thing I had to realize about my own growing up

is there was I always had an impending doom and I never really could remember why that I always felt like I would slip into feeling like I would want to take my own life and I'm like why do I feel that way maybe it's because in the back of my mind I'm just expecting the end of the world and I've been hearing about it my whole life you know so I think that's that's kind of stuff where it's like my questions come up as a parent why would you ever say that and what was going through your mind and what is in your mind how are we getting to these points and how are these books influencing you this much right why are these books so fascinating and i'll tell you another thing one of the other thing i was going to tell you too is that statement about her passing away with

tylee she would have told everybody that we all would have heard that story so at some point i think Chad got in her head and she started really being able to fabricate so much so easily. And I just don't understand how, you know, because Chad could say whatever he wants, but you want to believe him. You want what he's saying to be true. And I think that was the hardest part is like, yeah, that's where I put, you know, you can say whoever's the biggest catalyst. it's always a choice.

I don't think Chad forced her do anything she didn't want to do, as hard as that is to say. And he was also fantasical. You know, I don't know him. I don't know too much about him, to be honest with you. But for her statements to be in my mind, it made me think, this is all stuff, though, that's been building blocks to the past. And when you come to your kid and tell them you have a certain amount. amount of time before you die you know i think it starts there maybe you want to die maybe that's the ultimate relief of your pain in your life that's got to be what it is how how why are you obsessed with

being dead and if you are then why are you trying to alert everyone about the this certain amount of time that you have like how do you know you're dying soon you know so I think that's what start. For me, that's where it starts. All of it starts. And then even the time that she wanted me and Ty and her at all drive off a cliff. Like, why would you pitch that to us? You know, she wanted to do it.

We were driving from Texas to Arizona. And she said, we were, I don't remember exactly what it was, but there was all this stuff going on between all of our family dynamic. And she just pitched it to the car. what year was that oh man I must have we still lived in Texas

so it had to be before I was 13 so I want to say at least 10 so what 05 oh 6 something like that

but so tell me this story I don't think I haven't heard you ever heard this story I don't know if I haven't heard a story yeah I don't think you told me you guys are driving

we're in the middle of nowhere I think we're We're kind of in this place. And I wish, because I'm older now, I wish I could give you the location. But it had to be outside of El Paso, New Mexico area. And there's a part when you're on your way to Arizona where there is, you're in the mountains. And there's nothing around. And it's just dead zone.

And I remember it was just a really hard drive. We hadn't really talked much. It's a 16 hour drive. And she just was talking about stuff. And she talked to me like I was an adult. She, what I never, I didn't process this until I was older, but she would talk to me about stuff that's way beyond what you should talk to your kids about. So she would lay burden on me. Yeah.

Like she kind of talked to me like I was able to handle that. So I grew up with this sense of handling burden and never being able to give you mine. And she, Tiley was probably two. And she just said to the car, why don't we just drive off the cliff? and she was dead serious like if we would have both said yes I swear to you she would have drove off the cliff so I said I started freaking out

Tiley I think was too and it really breaks my heart because for I think she said yes she doesn't even know what she's saying she has no idea she's too she's just agreeing with her mom she doesn't understand

she's like sure whatever mom whatever you say and I'm in the front seat I remember I started panic I said mom let me on the car please like I'm really freaking out. She's like Kobe, don't worry. Like it's fine, whatever. Like, because I didn't know what the next move was.

I was conscious enough to know that there was a decision possibly being made that are, we were all going to die right there. And all you had to do was just get off of the freeway and drive off one of the cliffs. And what was your, what was your sense about the reasons or what, do you, do you remember what did something trigger? Yeah, it was just her. It was all the court stuff. between all of her with Charles and all the stuff they were going through with his kids and

and all this stuff that was happening. It was all happening at once. And so we were on our way to Arizona to see family. And that's when that happened. And, you know, having to process stuff like that just really takes me back to this point of, I had to realize how fascinated she was with death for herself at first. and then for us, the idea to even ask your kids

if we should do it. Right. Like conversated out. Like, if I would have agreed, I don't know if there would have been a rational thought after that. Because it was like,

let's get, it was the, get me out of this. Yeah, that's, that's really scary, Colby. I haven't heard that.

But, you know, you and I talked a little about some of this, but now that you're talking about it more. I just, you know, I really feel for you in terms of growing up in this family where everything,

like death seems to underlie everything. It seems to right. It seems to underpin everything in your childhood. Your mom's constantly talking about the apocalypse. She's talking about her dying all the time. She's talking, right? She's threatening to drive you off the cliffs. I mean, holy cow.

Yeah. No, it's been hard. I'll tell you right now, like, this is crazy as this is going to sound and as fast as it's going to sound. It was like that was like a closing that book opened up all the other stuff really quickly. Once I realized with her and just shut it finally was like, you know what? I'm dumb with this situation with my mom. Like there's nothing left here to give. All of this other stuff started coming up again.

And I'm just remembering how it really was. And honestly, it's discussions with Kelsey, really talking it out and just like little things that just pop up that I remember. I'm like, man, as a parent, I just can't understand why you'd say that. Why would you do that? I would never say that to my daughters or my son. Never say it. That would never come out of my mouth. Yeah.

And I'm glad you brought that up because I think that's a big part of your story is it's one thing to. It's one thing to process your demons, right? It's one, it's one thing to have demons visit your dreams, right? And for your nightmares to be populated with demons, it's another thing to wonder about ways to keep the demons out of your children's nightmares. Yeah. That should be your goal. Yeah.

Yeah, right. Exactly. And I mean, I worry that. that human beings, and I'm not talking about you specifically, you know, the human beings that go through these types of traumas, sometimes it's really difficult to keep these types of demons out of their children's dreams and nightmares. No, I'm glad you brought that up because I'll tell you one thing right now, okay?

And this is something I've thought about a lot. I will do anything humanly possible to not end up, my mother anything i want to be the polar opposite and honestly kelsey's helped me a lot with that because she gives me that other perspective and i've tried to make myself willing enough to always listen to what she has to say because i i can't i've literally prayed like please don't let me ever end up like her and i never want this trauma to pass on like that's one thing i feel I can give them is all one day my kids are going to grow up and I'm sure they're going to be curious about this because this is a lot to tell your kids I've thought how am I supposed to explain

it? I've told Riley knows about my family she sees these pictures that I have behind me like but she doesn't know right she doesn't understand that so the one thing I want more than anything is to be the exact opposite the exact opposite because I never want this burden to pass over. And that's the one thing I've thought is I want to get everything that I can do everything that I can to never have any of this pass down to them ever. That's a big, big thing to me. Yeah, I can tell. And I appreciate that. I think just having these conversations is a good start, right? Like talking to Kelsey about it is really important. Yeah. You know, And so I appreciate the fact your channel, you know, you're one of the, the purposes of your channel is to,

to deal with tough topics like this, right? So yeah. So I really appreciate the courage, you know, you're showing and confronting this head on. And I think you're going to help a lot of people by being so vulnerable and so open about what you experienced. and, you know, confronting it directly rather than, as you pointed out in your childhood, rather than running away and hiding from it. Yeah. And that was the hardest part is like those four years of while this was happening, I was just like,

just struggling because it's like you can't, you're not ready to open the door on that. And the cases aren't done. You can't really talk about it. I wanted to tell at least try to tell my slipping stories to the documentary. that didn't happen. So it's like, I just felt stuck. And I'm like, you know what? At some point, I hope I can help someone else.

And even with some of this stuff that as beliefs, that was one of my main passions too is what we've talked about today is the belief systems of not. If someone you know is having those belief systems really, I don't know what you can do exactly, but if I would have been conscious enough to really think that there's something going on with my mom and really see it and really be willing to see it, Right. I really hope I would have this type of thing of confronting her before. That's always like my biggest thing. I'm like, I wish I could have been like, what are you doing before any of this started? You know? But I really hope it just helps anybody, especially if they're falling into those beliefs.

I know there's other people who believe what Chad has said before. And I'm praying on everything that they can walk away from that. because you have to see the contradiction. You have to be able to see that this leads you to know good things. And so I think that's another big part of it. But I appreciate you saying that. And again, I honestly don't know how I process it. And without watching your guys' channel, without hearing your type of perspective where it wasn't coming in

to angle in to get something to be said, to get something just to hit the press. You really share your thoughts and you really care. And so that's when I was like, wow, maybe I could, maybe we can't talk about this and just have a discussion rather it being media frenzy and letting it just be this thing that hits, you know, hits the news. As it did with everybody else, once they heard the interview, they just go and they highlight that one thing and they put it as a headline.

And I'm like, the whole point is there's supposed to be a conversation. that's deeper than that. Of course, I get it. That's how it works. But there's more to it. There's more to this. Right. Right. Everybody wants the sound bite, right? They want the sexy sound bite that's going to get clicks. But yeah, which is, which is why I'm so glad that you asked me to, um, to follow up with you and to talk about it. And, you know, to have an opportunity for, for us to dig a little deeper into this. Um, And, you know, we, as you pointed out, we, we met years ago. Yeah, it's crazy. You know, I think there's some level of thrust there over these years that matters to, it matters to me. So I'm really glad to do this, Colby, and I'm glad to see what you're doing with your channel. It's really amazing. Yeah, I really appreciate that.

And again, that's another thing I wanted to say to you. is how much I appreciate what you guys are doing because I don't know about anybody else who's in our case specifically but for me to have a place to sit there and listen to the hard stuff without it being on again here's a flash right and you know this is another heavy thing is like I saw the picture of Tiley her skull on a thumbnail you know I mean like it's just they just want somebody to see it and click it. And that's the type of stuff where it's like you can't get anywhere with that kind of stuff. You can tell everybody this hot flash thing, but that's

not going to get anything. And that's just, here's information. So you guys sit there and have that conversation. And both Lauren and your perspectives have just been so good for me because it's not the same thing. And so I just had, again, I know I've said like 10, times, but I have to thank you publicly because it has been seriously really, really good for me. And I think it really did, again, inspire me to say this can be a conversation. And people are going to think what they want after you say it. But that's fine. Make your conclusion with what you want.

But at least I know I said my piece. And that is exactly what you guys are doing. So I really appreciate you for that. And you did leave an impression on me in 2020. So I'm glad that we were able to reconnect and talk about it. Yeah, it took a while for us to reconnect. But we had some conversations over the years. Yeah, exactly.

I think my, you know, I gave you my number back then and I said, you know, if you want to talk or if you need me, just let me know. And I always felt like, you know, and I was, you know, I was sincere about that. I always felt like if you want to or if you're ready, you're going to find me, you know. And that's how it should be. Like, I don't want to force anyone to talk or, right, or if they're not ready. And so, so here you are. And I'm grateful for that. So, and I'm, I really hope that you can find some measure of peace through all of this.

And I know that's going to take time. That's going to be a really arduous, long process. But, you know, but you are, you are basing those demons head on. Yeah. And that's difficult. Yeah. But it's necessary. If something happens that you know you can't, you just learn the lessons yourself.

But if you can help other people, that's like the number one goal. If I say something good or can give you perspective, I just pray it. It touches somebody and helps them. So I appreciate you saying that. I'm glad that we connected. I'm glad I can talk to you because you're somebody that I really respect and really respect your opinion. And I really appreciate your take. So it's been really good to have that.

And, you know, I really hope from this point forward, too, for the channel is to just continue down that path and try to just hit it up front and get out the things that need to be said and then keep moving forward from there. So that's going to be the goal. Yeah, awesome. You know, but I'm confident you'll do it, Colby. I appreciate it, man. All right, well, thank you for coming on in the channel. Yeah, absolutely. Happy to be here.

Yeah, again, anybody who wants to know, if you don't know already, check out Hidden True Crimes channel. Again, like I told you, I can say a million good things about it, but I think you just got to go listen to what they're doing over there, and they've been really incredible. and so loving and respectful. So just have to say that. But we're going to go talk after this.

So love you guys. Thank you. And I appreciate you, John. You know that. All right. Yeah. Thanks for having me. And I wish you all the best.

And of course, I'm always available, Colby. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you, man. All right. Take care. Good night. You too. Good night.

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