Hidden True Crime - Could Lori Vallow Daybell be held in contempt of court?! | LAUREN MATTHIAS x ASHLEIGH BANFIELD

Episode Date: April 5, 2025

Join Lauren and Ashleigh as they talk about things from the Lori Daybell trial, to Ashleigh's experience covering the Jodi Arias trial, and Luigi Mangione. Ashleigh's podcast: Drop Dead Serious Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/drop-dead-serious-with-ashleigh-banfield/id1749169659 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5DndaieKD0xZO5d1NrqhjI About Hidden True Crime: What started as a simple conversation at their dinner table became a captivating podcast. Join the dynamic duo of Dr. John Matthias, a criminal psychologist, and Lauren Matthias, an investigative journalist, as they delve into the psychological facets of unthinkable crimes every week. Their unique perspectives and in-depth analysis offer a fresh take on true crime storytelling. Thank you for your support through sponsorships, subscribing, listening, and becoming a Patreon member at Patreon.com/HiddenTrueCrime Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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glad to see you now as a fellow podcaster. So thank you for being here. I've always admired you as a broadcaster and the reporting you have done for so many years. Thank you for all of the work you have done. you are a true blue boots on the ground journalist. And now, again, like I said, I can also call you a fellow true crime podcaster. And so I am so excited for this conversation we're about to have. Thank you for me. That's fine. My gosh. Right back at you for one. Because you know that we do a lot like we have you on the show a lot. And I think that the podcasting space really does allow conversation. Whereas in television, it's reporting, it's quick, it's fast and it isn't as deep oftentimes. So this is, this has been a real treat.

for me to just sometimes have these very long conversations where you do get into the weeds. And the weeds are important. The weeds are important. In fact, I hope you're okay, actually, Ashley. If I ask you about first off, and let me not bury the lead. I want to talk to you about the Lori Valo-Dabelle case. I want to talk to you. 10 hours.

Day mom, right. If we have 10 hours. I've been editing the backstory, by the way, here in our Airbnb in Phoenix, Arizona for the last three days. So yeah, if you had 10 hours. But I do want to talk to about that. But before we get there, I do just want to simply ask you how and where your interest in true crime has come from. Because I also want to point out that you were a reporter on the Jody Arias case, the Casey Anthony case. Those are just two of many cases you have covered deeply throughout the years. So tell me that, because I feel like everyone has a backstory there. Yeah, I mean, I do. I've, I've,

I go back to OJ. I'm of a certain generation. I covered OJ. I remember OJ. Yeah, and that wasn't even the beginning of my career. The very beginning of my career was the Exxon Valdez crash in Alaska. That's the crazy part. I go back that long when the drunk ship captain, you know, ran aground and dropped all the oil in the beautiful, you know, phase of Valdez, Alaska.

So, yeah, I mean, I do go back along with. way, but Lauren, I was always general beat. And I remember making a decision early on in my career that I wanted to be general beat for a few reasons. I love current events. Always did. I just love them. And so I didn't want a pigeonhole into one kind of current event, like politics or business or true crime. I didn't want to. I wanted to stay very general. I also thought of it, and I don't know how I thought of it in my early 20s because I was a moron, that it was a good business decision to stay general beat because I would have more opportunities all over the map, including if I wanted to be an anchor or a host at some point, rather than just a reporter.

I felt that there'd be, I'd open a lot more doors having a lot more material under my belt than if I were just sort of myothically focusing in one genre. That was the way it was back in the 80s. But then, you know, in the late 90s and the early 2000s, things began to change. And focused, branded journalists became more valuable. I mean, just imagine all the business people that you can name on the air because CNBC made them stars. Same thing with legal journalists. They became more valuable, the more in-depth and the more knowledgeable they were.

And so that's when I started shifting my career into few crimes. Okay. And I want to point out to a few of our listeners that might not know this because they know you from Banfield and from Drop Dead Syria. You were in New York City when the World Trade Center collapsed reporting. like you have done everything. And so I don't, I don't, I want to make that clear here because I've admired you for years, Ashley and what you've done. And so, um, again, like around the block.

If, you know, for the newer folks on, like younger folks on the podcast, um, I, yeah, I would, I actually nearly died on 9-11. I was under that North Tower when it, when it came down and had to scramble breaking windows to get to safety from the debris that was coming down. And then nine days of standing on that pile reporting about the apocalypse, because that's really what it felt like. Nine days later, I was on a plane to Pakistan, and I didn't come home for a year. And then for the year after that, I was hopscatching every war zone, you know, you can name. And I have spent every, I have been in every place that is a hotspot.

So when we talk about Gaza, oh, I spent some time in Gaza. I spent some weird time in Gaza with a hood over my head. And, you know, at gunpoint being marched into a field, I have been in. in Afghanistan and Iraq and Iran, I was held as a guest of the Iraqis, if I didn't report appropriately, they said. I was held by the Hezbollah leader in Lebanon for six hours without a phone or a watch or in a locked room just to make sure I wasn't a ticking time bomb, literally a bomb. That would go off and kill the leader of Hezbollah before I interviewed him. He's since been killed that one. So yeah, I have a very weird background on the way to true crime. I guess you could say

I've been involved in global crime and I've had to cover it from the ground. Exactly. Global crime. I mean, it's all crime. Terrorism is crime. And wow, wow. Thank you for sharing a bit of your background. And so I guess I just really wanted to put that into perspective before we jump into a woman who has captivated both of us for years now. Over five years, you and I have been captivated by Lori Valo Daibel. Lori Daibel now, I guess, as she wants to be called for the upcoming trial, her second trial here in Phoenix, Arizona. I like Kanye, you can't shake a brand.

So I'm just going Lori Valo. Yeah, I like, I go back and forth. It's like when Prince, you know, formerly known as Prince, I don't know what to say. but and I'm not sure either side of the family is excited. I don't think the Valos are excited for her to be Lori Val. I don't think the Daibel. They're excited for her to be Lori Deval too. Yeah, who wants to be stuck with that?

You know, that is a whole lot of mess. And captivated is one way looking at it. Perplexed, befuddled, all of the above, right? I think as anybody on the podcast right now who's a mom, you can't get over this story. Anybody on the podcast who's religious, you can't get over this. story. Anybody on the podcast who's human, you can't get over this story. So there's a million reasons why it's hard to shake how and why all this happened. Perplex is a better way to say it too, because I have been perplexed, honestly, Ashley, for five and a half years. Like I almost, you know,

I get to come on your show on Banfield sometimes and you could ask me questions. But honestly, I've been thinking, I want to ask Ashley questions. Like knowing what you know, what what is it about this woman and this case that has sort of drawn you in and left you perplexed lots of levels right and a load of layers too and i think the first is the obvious who kills their kids who does that what you better be um in a state of psychosis uh that's provable uh you know for me to be able to accept, okay, I understand it, like Andrea Yates level, right? Right. But she's not that. She's a whole lot of crazy. I mean, the whole cult business, she's a whole lot of crazy. And then, you know, Lauren, we've seen a lot of results, deadly, horrifying results of cult madness.

I'm not old enough to have been a reporter during Jim Jones and Guyana, but I was old enough to watch it as a kid and be so stunned that these people could. drink Kool-Aid willingly and go to their deaths willingly. And then, of course, those who didn't were shot. But I think, you know, I'm looking for that level of crazy with Lori Ballot, because that's the only way I could see doing the things that A, she has done, and B, she's accused of doing, right? We're moving ahead to two more trials, and we've already seen thrice now. She's a murderer. So, yeah, number one is how do you kill your kids? number two, why do you kill your kids and then kind of come off as normal?

Right? Because to a lot of people, she was normal. They loved her. Her fellow cultists loved her. They couldn't wait to hear her pontificate for 45 minutes in their living room about absolute garbage. And they believed her. And they visited her. They came from far away to visit her.

That's another thing I can't get over. How was she not so off-putting as a child murderer would be that she had all these friends and had this great one? how did she attract five husbands? There's another one because many of us struggle to meet guys. Right? Like, what? Luckily, I finally found one when I was 35, but it took 35 years, right? And I found two, but it was not easy.

But and then there's this whole idea that she is very swept up in how she looks and how she sounds. And how did she go from being, you know, incompetent to even stand trial to so competent, she'll defend herself in court? That's the other beguiling thing. It's just, it's mind-blowing, all of them. That's true. Like, when you don't think that this case can, like, get any weirder, Lori Vallow, Dave Bell is about to defend herself.

She's about to defend herself. And we're like, wait, what? No, actually, you know what? You just said that. A lot of news outlets when you are covering a second trial, and I've done this a bunch, right? Phil Spector was tried twice. There were loads of people who have been tried twice. And on the second go-round, there's not a lot of coverage. Karen Reid excluded. But there's not a lot of coverage. Phil Spector's second trial barely got covered and he was

convicted the second time round. And a lot of news outlets will not deliver assets to a second case because we don't think that there's as much appetite for, you know, among the viewers. And, you know, we're not a charity. We were in a business. We have to get people, like, we have to know that people are going to want to watch the product we give them. So it's a little like prosecutors. You don't prosecute unless you know you're going to convict.

But in the Lori Vallow case, this is different because, yeah, she's already a thrice convicted murderer who's going to spend life, no parole in prison. so why should we care about another murder? It's not going to make a difference in her life or ours. And yet, because this story took such a crazy shift where she's going to now talk in court, that's not something she did before. We can maybe get some insight to all these questions

you and I have been bandying about for years. Yeah, I think you're, you know, I attended jury selection. I'm here in Phoenix. And that's, and one thing I noticed, going back to how you said that she looks a certain way that she looks normal, I think that's part of the big intrigue for me or curiosity or perplexing is I like your word.

I'm going to go with that. Perplexing part of her is that she comes across pretty sane most of the time. She definitely had some explosive moments during jury selection. But she looks like an annoyed woman. She doesn't sound insane. She doesn't think she's thinking to your mind that she hasn't murdered anyone that she's going to be exonerated and go on dancing with the stars. because that's what she's thinking. That's the other thing.

She sounds like she's talking like she's smarter than everyone else in the courtroom. And that's maddening. Maddening. It is. It is. I know. It is maddening because you're like, yeah, it's maddening. And so I know, have some self-awareness.

Yeah. Read the room, Lori. They all freeze. Right. And I was at, I was walking around my new neighborhood outside my Airbnb. And a woman was asking about. about my podcast and what we were doing. And I was explaining.

And she said, I saw her, the really pretty woman, the really beautiful woman. And then she said she's a murder. And I thought, what? I think that that's kind of what this is too. And she does look nice. I'll say in her street clothes and her highlighted hair. She's looking more like the Lori Valo we knew from the beginning, manipulating the police officers.

What? I figure that out. How'd she get the highlights? Because her hair does look highlighted. I know. I think Keith asked her during the interview and she said that she can buy bleach. And she's a hairdresser. So she knows how to pull that off.

Definitely knows how to pull it off. I just never imagined in a million years that you could get that kind of hair product. Because bleach, you know, that's something you can kill someone with. You know, use the wrong way. I'm shocked that someone can get that kind of product in person. Maybe we need to double check with Keith. I think that's what Keith said. But maybe, I mean, I'll find out.

If I could call Keith, I would. She's not. So I just suffer the kind of blonde ambition that I have, which is I have to highlight like Matt or my hair goes brown. She has roots that are just blonde roots. She just doesn't have platinum blonde roots. So she's lucky in that respect. There you go.

You're right. She's got this dark, dark blonde. You know, will you be watching as you pointed out? You're right. Like I thought it was done. I thought this case was done. You know, I went to both trials in Idaho. I thought, and by both, let me clarify, Lurie's followed by Chad Daybell,

the co-conspirator, also charged with the murders of Tammy, Tiley, and JJ. I thought it was done. I'm surprised I'm here for this. As you point out, I didn't know that this would be that big of a deal either. Yet here I am. So you're going to be following this. Sorry, are you intrigued by how this is going to go down? Yeah, because I'm already intrigued by the pretrial motions and how she behaves. Once again, this is someone who thinks she's smarter than everyone else in the room. And I'm here to tell you, I've been at this business a long time, and I would never try to defend myself. There's no way that I could catch hearsay at the, that the speedy, you know, lightning quick way that you have to when you're litigating and you're standing in that well and you're, you know, cross-examining or you're even examining.

There's no way I could do this job. There's no way. I don't have the depth. And again, it's been my career for the last 25 years. So the fact that, you know, that she thinks just because she's been a murderer and has sat through a trial and pre-trial, that she's good enough to do this tells me just how dumb she really is. And so I want to see that on display. I want to see how dumb she is. You know the old expression. A man who's chosen himself or a lawyer has a fool for a client. It applies. It applies everywhere. And so I can't wait to see, you know, how this manifests and the kinds of conversations that she has with the judge, because it's the poor judge who's going to be working overtime every day.

I'll say it, Dunning Kruger. If you know, you know, if not look it up, because that's what exactly what I think of when I think of, Lori. It will be really entertaining in an educational way for viewers to watch this, because everyone should know that this is a terrible idea. Defending yourself, no matter how smart you think you are, even if you're a lawyer, it's a terrible idea because you have a different lens when you are a defendant. even if you're a lawyer.

But I always really enjoy, and I think you do too, it's why you do this job. I really enjoy learning more about jurisprudence. And in every case, I learn something new. And in every jurisdiction, I learn something new because everybody's different. They're a lot of laws are different, every state you go to. But in this particular case,

you are going to hear from a judge who, like I said, is going to have to work overtime, schooling Lori constantly. about why she needs to stop talking and how you're going nowhere with this. This might be the way you talk to your friends and how you argue with your friends, but this is not how it works on the record. So that's what I'm looking forward to. I know I'm going to learn a lot by watching her screw up.

Yeah. Yeah, the judge already looks exhausted. You know, what do you think? You are close to Kay and Larry Woodcock, two of the surviving victims in this case. they lost Charles is Kay's brother and, you know, JJ, of course, seven-year-old JJ is their grandchild that they lost, both to murder. How do you think it's going to be for them and for, I mean, this is the part that kind of breaks my heart. When Lori is up there questioning them, you know, this person's been charged with murdering their grandchild. Yeah, that is one of the reasons why this will be a big case.

right to watch. I've seen it before. I have seen killers cross-examining survivors, family, you know, family members of the dead, of the victims. I've even seen attempted killers and rapists questioning their victims who survived their attempted murders. And it is horrendous. They need a lot of prep. Usually that comes from the prosecutors. Oftentimes they get their own lawyers too. but the prosecutors are effectively their lawyers, their protectors in this process and their witnesses. And so it is a very painful thing to watch, but it is the right of every person accused in the Constitution to confront your accusers. It's just that normally it's your lawyers who do it. So there is that nice, you know, there is that nice buffer that it is the accused lawyer who's

doing that questioning. So when you represent yourself, you take that buffer away and you just inflict so much pain and suffering. And by the way, that will not go unnoticed by a jury. It will not go unnoticed by a judge. When it comes to sentencing, if she's guilty, none of that will go unnoticed. True. How she acts in front of the survivors of this horrendous multiple crimes. And what she does outside the boundaries of legal jurisprudence, right? Because again, she's not a lawyer. She doesn't really know what she's doing. So her histrionics will count. That stuff counts against you if you're behaving in that way in a courtroom, just like if you're sitting at defense table and you decide to, you know, lash out and yell and scream, you can be held in

contempt of court. Just because you're at defense table doesn't mean you have free speech to yell, you know, there are rules of decorum. And so all the things that she does that are outside, what a lawyer is allowed to do, that will count against her. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, details about you from public records and the internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands

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Protect yourself now atora.com slash remove. Wow. Yeah. Do you think she could be held in contempt at some point? Totally. Yeah. Look, if she's, once again, dumb enough, and I do believe she is, dumb enough to not heed the judges' instructions and warnings on multiple occasions, she could be. That said, I do know also that judges go to enormous lengths to protect the process,

to protect the case, to protect the trial. Usually, they go way beyond the bounds of what our own patients would allow so that they can protect Lori's rights to continue a trial and not waste all of the assets and expenditures of the state by having to declare a mistrial or having to deal with an appeal because she will argue, well, I got sent to the who scow because I was yelling and that that, you know, precluded my fair right as a defendant. She can do those things. Will she win them?

No. But again, it's more money, more time, more problems. And what about, I have to ask you this rack belt, she does not want to wear this rack belt, this stun belt. I have visions, Ashley, of what could possibly happen in the courtroom if all of a sudden she gets feisty, because we've already seen it. And the stun belt happens. I mean, I can't imagine that this is why she doesn't want to wear it, right?

Like, she is so adamant about not wearing this. I'm like, what are you afraid of, Lori? What are you afraid of? I have a theory. I think she doesn't like the way it makes her look because she wants to wear, she gets to wear street clothes, right? All defendants who appear in, before a jury, get to first street clothes. And more and more, we're seeing that they're getting to wear street clothes

and pretrial hearings with no jury because of the media. So that's going out to the jury pool. They don't want to be seen in orange jumpsuits because it makes you look guilty. So she wants to look, you know, spelt and pretty. And that stun belt will make her look chubby and chunky and won't allow her to wear, you know, mid-waist coats, whatever it is, whatever her certorial choices are. But I want to see this about that belt. I don't think anyone's trying to be nasty to Lori. I don't think anyone thinks that Lori's going to, you know, attack somebody on the bench or, you know, on the witness stand or go great.

or try to run out the back door. I don't think they think that about her, although I would never put anything aside for Lord. But when you are in a courtroom as a defendant, there are bailiffs and security officers who are present. The defendant does not get to get up and walk around the courtroom during the proceedings. So you can take the handcuffs and shackles off the defendant so that the jury doesn't see the defendant as a prisoner already. because that is, you know, projardive in their minds. But Lori is a lawyer, so she gets to stand up and walk around. So she can't enjoy the same treatment as a seated defendant can. There has to be some method of making sure that everyone in the courtroom is protected from Lori.

And there may actually be something on the books in Arizona saying that if a defendant, you know, repeatedly gets up from his or her seat, they have to wear something that is restraining that does not appear visibly to the jury like handcuffs and leg shackles. So that's my opinion of why they have had to put a belt on Lori because she's a defendant who gets to move about the cabin freely and they need some kind of insurance policy

against anything that might happen legally. That makes sense. That makes sense. Ashley, I know that you need to run. We've got you in between your busy broadcasting schedule. you're about to go do some live hits. Before you go, though, this is right across the hall I learned from the Jodi Arias trial, which I did not attend.

You attended the Jody Arias trial. So I don't know if you have visions of that courtroom, but it's allegedly pretty identical to that one. So I just want to put it out there too. I mean, it's poetic, but maybe not surprising. I will say this, the Arias trial was in the summer. It was 110 degree. Yeah.

It was horrible. That was a tough, that was a tough assignment. And I'll just tell you one anecdote that's a little off the spider. But because I was hosting, you know, live shots all day long and a show, I was basically on camera all day long. And we found a position in a parking garage adjacent to the courthouse. So behind me, you would see the courthouse. And I was in this corner of this parking garage right on the street. And I was in this corner of this parking garage right on the street. street corner. And I was there for a couple of weeks at least. I mean, I'm trying to remember how long it was. It felt like the entire summer. So I would post up there and I would do my shows from there. And then because it was 110 degrees, people were not going to come to my location and be a guest if I. We would do what you and I are doing right now. Yeah. We would do side by sides and meet people digitally or, you know, through Sutherland. And one of the guests I had on the show was Nancy Grace. because Nancy obviously is a queen of true crime as well, and she was very heavily invested.

And she also had a mobile position. But hers was a studio. It was like one of those mobile trailers that has a studio in them. Nancy, unbeknownst to me, had parked her studio truck. So imagine me looking at you right now and I'm looking at the camera. She had parked her studio truck down past my camera. Because there's a street, there's a street right here. and there's a street right here and the courthouse is well let me see right there so she had parked

her truck down the street that i'm that i'm on and so her view is the same view that i have she's just 300 or 200 yards down the down the street but she's got the same backdrop he's farther away from the courthouse than i am but she's got the courthouse she's got the far the wide shot yeah she's got the court she's sitting in her in her but i didn't i didn't know where she She had her mogul studio because I was in my place all day, every day. And I didn't go 200 yards that way because it's away from the courthouse. I'd never seen where she was. So I do a live shot with Nancy, and it's all normal.

We talk about the case. We talk about whatever. And at some point in the live shot, a bus goes through my background, right? Because I'm on a street in behind, and I'm on a street beside me. And a bus goes through my background. And because she has the same background that I do, it goes through her background too. So it starts at her background and goes through my background. And the people at John Stewart's Daily Show, when he was still doing five days a week on the daily show,

they assumed that she was standing right beside me and I was pretending that she wasn't there. I was pretending to just look straight at a camera and she was looking straight at a camera. And they made a huge joke about, She's standing right at me beside you. Just turn your face and look at her and ask. And then I remember being so annoyed by it. It was funny AF, right? It really was funny.

But in television terms, it wasn't true what he was saying. Right. And I was completely like, you know, lambasted for something I didn't do. I didn't do anything wrong and I didn't do anything on towards. And I'd had a conversation with Nancy Grace from her studio and my studio and my outdoor location. It just so happened she had the same backdrop that I did. And it looked digitally like we were in the same place.

So that was a big memory of mine from the Jody Arias trial because that went viral everywhere. And I was made to be humiliated by it. If it makes you feel better, my husband, John and I do split screen every day from our own home. And people are like, are you guys in the same room? Like we're not in the same room, but we are in the same house in different rooms doing. It's just easier. It's just easier. get it now, Lauren, people get it now because since COVID now, we all do Zoom. We've all met on, we've all done multiple Zoom or whatever platform you choose, Microsoft Teams, whatever. We've all done. And the reality is that single shots are single shots. And when you go out to a double shot, sometimes it doesn't work. You don't have the mics. You don't have the width. You don't have the space. You don't have the back. The backdrop gets crazy. And so you do these single shots. And so it's not weird to anybody today. I think the people at the Daily Show would have.

not thought of things about it back then, now, today. Right. They mentioned, you know, wrongly so that we were standing beside each other and ignoring each other. That wasn't. One last question. I know you have to go. What's another case you're really looking forward to?

When you talked about viral things, I know that your interview while covering Luigi with the prisoners went viral. That was fascinating. And I don't know. Are you going to be following Louis? Luigi or what other cases are you really into right now? So I will be following Luigi as you will be too. I mean, this is a huge story.

It's taken on legs of its own for cultural and social reasons, not so much for the legal mystery of it, right? I don't think anybody's feeling too whodunit about this. But the fact that it's federal case makes me frustrated because they typically will not allow any cameras. And that is frustrating because I feel like, And look, I know I have a dog in the fight, but I feel like there should be a camera in every courtroom because it's our system. It doesn't belong to the government.

We are the government. It is our system. In Iraq, they used to just throw hoods over people's heads and pull them out of their homes. And that was the last you'd ever see them. And there was no open system. Oh, he was convicted. Oh, you weren't there? Yeah, sorry.

He's in a gulag. You'll never see him again. That's not us. We have one of the most envied systems of justice in the world. And the more we put gag orders and kick cameras out of court, the less we are transparent about our system of justice, the less we can trust what's really happening in there. I agree. And to tell me that, oh, well, you can walk into the courtroom. No, you can't.

You know, no, you can't. It's a big country. So in that respect, I'm frustrated by the federal system. I'm very frustrated by the Supreme Court. They're now allowing audio great. But at some point, they should allow video. And they should allow the Americans in to see the American's own process. So I will be frustrated by that part of it, but I will cover it and I will absolutely, you know, do what we can to bring that story to life, even if it has to be courtroom sketches, which drive me bananas.

But the Luigi thing also is a fascinating story. Outside of the legal case, it's a fascinating story. And, you know, I think I'm probably like you and that I'm appalled that people are cheering and celebrating a father who was murdered. shot in the back by someone who ran away and hid. Like, let's not forget that the hero, if Luigi is the killer, the hero here, aren't you brave? You shot a man in the back, and then you ran away. That's not a hero. No, two little children, two little boys without a father.

Yeah, two kids, my kid's age, almost, my two boys age. And, you know, I don't care what you think about his job. You can protest that in this country. you're allowed to protest those things in this country. And you can start a movement and you can go to your congress and you can go on Capitol Hill. That's what we allow in this country. Can't do that in a lot of countries I've been too. But the way we don't do things is the way other people do things in other countries.

They do summary justice all the time in the square with a machete. They do stuff like that. We've always prided ourselves in that we don't do that. Even if our base instinct wants to do that, even if you want to take Chris Watts and behead him, we don't do it that way. And we are the envy of the world because of it. So I wish that more people would stop giving into your base instincts of hating someone who looks so incredibly guilty and do what we do in America. And that is afford them every single defense until they're guilty and then lock and then lock them. Thank you. Thank you, Ashley. I couldn't have said it better. I appreciate that. so much. And this is why I love these conversations. Thank you. Yeah. And they're important conversations. We can't have them for this length of time and depth, usually on a 30-minute show or a one-hour show or even in a documentary series. You can't always do that. But you can in the podcast world.

And I think that's why I'm absolutely loving it. And I really appreciate you asking me to come on. Thank you so much. Absolutely. Where can we find your podcast? Drop dead serious, girl. Yeah. So drop dead serious.com. You can find it on any of the platforms, Apple or Spotify, Audio Boom, everywhere you get your podcast. You can find it. And I'm also, I've got a companion YouTube show as well that if you want to see the pictures I'm talking about.

And by the way, I say that because I launched my Drop Dead series podcast with a six-part series. It's called Uncle Peter. And it's about a guy who is the most prolific serial sex offender in the world. If you put Epstein and Cosby and Diddy and Weinstein all together, Peter Nygaard would dwarf them in numbers. Right. He is a billionaire, he's a billionaire, almost reached billionaire, right? He's a clothing magnate.

He is a rags to riches story. He looks like Fabio and Liberace, if you blend the two of them, and then add Hugh Hefner to it. That's Peter Nygaard. And he sexually assaulted, molested rape and was accused of doing terrible things to thousands of women. And I grew up with him. He was Uncle Peter. So there's that. Yeah, he was my best friend's uncle.

And I knew him back then in the 80s. And my mom knew him back then. And Lauren, the most amazing thing is being able to look back at that era and see how people like that got a pass. because they did. They got a pass. They got a pass from everyone. They got a pass from police and governments and society and friends. And they even got a pass from the women because the women were too afraid to say anything and thought it must be their fault. And so looking back at everything through the eyes of my best friend who sits with me for nine hours to recount the whole family side of the story was really, really shocking. She also opened his vault and I got all the

filthy pictures and all the naked parties and that he did these things in the bahamas where he had like a 75 million dollar swiss family robinson home oh actually wow he had thousands of people as you know partiers and swinger parties he had academy awards ceremonies for who effed the most people during the swingers weekend um and and these like dessert buffets of naked women all covered in dessert with all the party goers eating off it's crazy stuff and that's why i say the companion youtube series is worth watching because I got all these things that Angela gave me

about the family growing up and then his crazy parties and the things that he did. The naked women and body paint and feathers running around with these Caribbean bands playing. It was wild. So that's Uncle Peter and that's on the Drop Dead Series channel.

I recommend taking a look because they're out there. People like that are out there. By the way, he's sitting in a prison cell in Canada right now. But he's got three more trials ahead of them. And one of them is in groups. Okay. That was my giving me my next question.

Please tell me he's somewhere where he needs to be. Okay. He's fighting it. He's fighting it. And he's 803 years old. And he's going downhill. But he's fighting it. And he's still got Montreal as another legal front.

He's got Winnipeg as a legal front. He's got New York City as a legal front. And then 135 people signed on to a class action lawsuit against him, including, we believe, two of the anonymous people are his own children. Who he made. who he made men of. He made men of them by sending in his girlfriend when they were just young to me. Well, one thing you do is investigative journalism.

You do it right. So I will be tuning in. Right back at you. Thank you. Thank you, Ashley. All right. Thank you so much. You have a wonderful day.

What is today? Thursday, I've lost track. I know. Every day feels like it's already a seven-day week. Yeah. And I hope that we'll be able to chat Lori Vallo, Lori Debel trial on the upcoming. Definitely.

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