Hidden True Crime - Criminal Psychologist Talks to Man Charged w/ Kidnapping & Murdering Michael Vaughan | Stacey Wondra

Episode Date: November 15, 2025

In January of 2024, at the request of 3rd parties, Dr. John interviewed Stacey Wondra, who at the time, was a suspect in the case of missing 5-year-old Michael "Monkey" Vaughan. Just a couple of weeks ago, Stacey was charged with kidnapping and murdering Michael. And now, Hidden True Crime is publicly releasing the interview between John and Stacey. Make the switch to Sundays. Go right now to http://sundaysfordogs.com/HIDDEN and get 50% off your first order. Or, you can use code HIDDEN at checkout. Get 15% off OneSkin with the code HIDDEN at https://www.oneskin.co/HIDDEN #oneskinpod About Hidden True Crime What started as a simple conversation at their dinner table became a captivating podcast. Join the dynamic duo of Dr. John Matthias, a criminal psychologist, and Lauren Matthias, an investigative journalist, as they delve into the psychological facets of unthinkable crimes every week. Their unique perspectives and in-depth analysis offer a fresh take on true crime storytelling. Thank you for your support through sponsorships, subscribing, listening, and becoming a Patreon member at⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Patreon.com/HiddenTrueCrime⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I would literally probably, I won't say kill, but I would allegedly hurt somebody really bad. I ever found out they did something like that through a little boy and I knew about it. On January 26th, 2024, Hidden True Crimes, Dr. John Matthias, a clinical and criminal psychologist, interviewed Stacey Wondra, the man now charged with kidnapping and murdering 5-year-old Michael Vaughn, also known as Monkey Vaughn. Dr. John conducted the interview at the request of unnamed parties. we hoped that with John's expertise, some information could be gleaned.

The day after Dr. John interviewed Stacey, I interviewed him as well. That was live on our YouTube channel. But Dr. John's interview was only seen by a very small audience within our Patreon community. For reasons, we kept it more private. Until now. Now that charges have come down, we feel comfortable finally sharing that full, unedited interview with you. This is Stacey Wunderer in January of 2024, claiming his innocence while telling John details about his life and upbringing. John then zeroes in on the timeline of July 27, 2021, the night that Michael went missing from his Fruitland, Idaho neighborhood.

Take a listen. And live. Okay, let's do it. And live. Yep, we're live. So, so, hey, everyone. I'm here with John and Stacey Wondra. We're live right now.

You know, so we're going live with Stacy. And for those of you to know, I'm just going to give a little intro to everyone here tonight that's watching. I don't think we're going to have that many people tonight. This is kind of a private conversation among people whose voices deserve to be heard. But those that know that John and I have been following the Michael Von Kays from the very, beginning. So a quick, just for those, anyone that might be here that is new to the case, Michael, his nickname was Monkey, Vaughn, who's five years old when he went missing in July 2021. And thank you, July 27th. Thank you for any timeline help, you can help us with thanks.

So July 27th, 2021 in Fruitland, Idaho. And, uh, You know, we just, John and I talk to anyone, and this is a situation where Stacey's name has definitely come up. And I'll tell you why. It was in 2022 of November. Am I right with the timeline there, Stacey? Correct. That police excavated your yard or where you were living with your wife, then-wife, ex-wife, Sarah Wundra. Mm-hmm.

Looking for signs of monkey, I believe. Correct me. and they didn't find anything. You were in prison at that time, correct, on a completely different charge. I was in jail, but the whole time. Okay. Federal holding. Thank you for correcting me.

Okay, federal holding. Thank you for correcting me. Jail, not prison. On a separate charge, nothing to do with monkey. Correct. And they excavated your yard, entire yard, found nothing. You've never been charged with a crime. You've been released from jail.

Can you tell me your marriage status with Sarah so I can keep it correct? Soon to be divorced. I filed for divorce when I was in Ada County. The judge granted it. And Sarah, when they went to send out the paperwork to Sarah to get her served, she had transferred to prison the next day. So I have to pay. pay the court to get the paperwork sent to me and then I have to have her served.

So. Gotcha. Okay. But soon to be divorced, correct? Okay. So your wife at this time, but separated, Sarah Wondro was arrested for failure to report the death. It reported the death and the missing person, but was later released.

Relieved with those charges. Okay. Okay. I think, you know, that's, and then here we are, and nothing really happened with the case since. And so here we are. I figured, you know, I was like, well, gosh, I should reach out to Stacey. You would know better than anyone, you know, what the latest is.

We all talked before the three of us, and we kind of decided that maybe John kind of lead this interview. And we want to, we're definitely going to ask Bacy questions. You know, like you've asked us to Stacey, but we also just want this to be a place where you can share. For those that might be watching, again,

this is a super private live with just some people we're kind of close to. Like this is not like really public right now. And for those wondering, we've turned off chat. We just want to be able to just listen. And, of course, we'll ask you questions too, Stacey, so you can form your thoughts. But for the most part, I'm going to kind of tune out and give you and John space.

Does that work? Sounds good. Okay. Can you just a quick request, Arne, could you give him the, I don't know, can you, I don't know if you can you give him the, I guess it would be my left side of the screen? Just so he's featured more than I am. Yeah, I'm going to stay around for a little bit longer to make sure things are cool. So I'll put myself on mute. But if you need anything, just tell me.

I'll have my ears in. Yeah. So I'll take it over from here. So I think, you know, Stacey, I had mentioned to you earlier that it's important for me to kind of get the know, the person that I'm talking to when I'm interviewing. And so you would be no exception to that. You know, if you don't mind me, so that's what I'm going to do. I'm not going to ask you a single thing about the crime for quite a while until I feel like I kind of have a better understanding of you. And then once I feel comfortable that you've told your story, then I would like to use you as a guide to kind of walk me through the crime and the situation.

And obviously, I don't honestly know a huge amount about this. that Lauren knows a lot more than I did since she covered it from the beginning. But so I'm going to, I'm going to rely on you to kind of help us understand or help me understand what's going on. And I know you were mentioned at a press conference, why you came up at the press conference, those types of things. So, but let's just start, you know, let's start with the beginning. Like, where were you born?

Merced, California. Okay. And, but, okay. And then how long did you, how long did your family live there? So biological parents deceased. My mom died in May 2003. Dad died before I was born of drug overdose. They both died of drug overdoses.

I was. Do you mind me asking when you were born? I know from the September 12th, 1992. Okay. So that would, so you're 20. 30. You would be 30. 31. Okay. So your dad, your dad died before 1992? Correct. I think he died in 91, late 91, if I'm not mistaken.

So very close just before you were born. Uh-huh. Okay. And you said they both died from drug overdoses? Correct. Okay. Did you, when did you learn that, by the way? When did you learn that your father passed away from a drug overdose? Did you know that as a child?

No, at later age, like, when I could start understanding things, I think probably when I was like eight or nine. Okay. And so your mom, your mom would have died not too, your mom would have died after you understood that. around eight or nine, your mom would have died not too long after that. Uh-huh. So you would have been roughly 11-ish? Yeah. So when I hear that, you know, I'm sorry that happened to you.

First of all, that's a tough road for anyone to, you know, to experience. What, I mean, what are, how did that affect you as a child? Um, it didn't really affect me a whole lot because I didn't really, really grew up knowing who my mom was, you know, I just knew about her. Okay. You know, when I was younger, I guess this is just one told by my adoptive mom that I have now that, you know, she remembers specifically a time when I was a baby. I had brought in like a toy to my biological mom when I was staying at my grandma jeans house. and my mom literally grabbed the toy and threw it across the room and pushed me on the floor.

So it just wasn't a good situation. She was not in a position to, you know, really take care of me at all. You know, she was just strung out on drugs all the time and alcohol. Yeah. You know, just out of curiosity. Do you know, do you know, so obviously you mentioned alcohol, but what, do you know what drugs your mom was, was using? I believe it was pretty much all of them, you know, meth, coke, heroin. Okay.

I mean, you name it. I think she was on it, so. Which back then, I think they all had different names, but. Yeah. So then in 2003, she, so she died from an overdose. Mm-hmm. And what Was this in California, by the way?

Correct. Okay. Was it in the same area, Merced? No, I believe so. I'm not exactly on a percentage of Modesto area, I think, or something like that. Okay. I guess I'm asking because I'm curious to know if you got, were you guys, because of the drug situation with your mom, were you moving around a lot? No.

I was adopted. when I was 13 months or 17 months old, I'm sorry. Okay. To my wonderful mom and dad now. Okay. I still have today, and then Sergio and Tammy. That's your, those are your adoptive parents, Sergio and Tammy? Correct.

Okay. So, all right. So I made the assumption that you were with your mom during those early years, but I guess so your mom obviously must have been having serious enough drug problems to be in the CPS system. Correct. So that you were then placed with an adoptive family at 17 months? Correct. Okay.

Gotcha. So your relationship with your mom would have been very limited as a child. Very limited. She wasn't in a position to do anything or take care of me at all. Okay. Gotcha. Did you, she saw you very little too, or did you see her a little bit? or?

I don't. I have pictures of her and my dad when they were together, but I don't remember ever meeting them. I was too little, you know. Okay. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet,

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After you were adopted, you really never had any relationship with her. Correct. Okay. What are your thoughts about that now when you think about it? I'm very thankful for the family I have now. Okay. And so tell me about your adoptive. parents, were they in California then when they adopted you?

Yeah. My mom and Sergio used to own a restaurant in Escalon, California, called the steak and eggs. Okay. And I'm sorry, Oakdale, Oakdale, California. Okay. And that's how, so the way I was introduced to my adoptive mom, it's kind of a neat story. Um, I was staying with my biological grandparents, my grandma Gina and Papa Wayne. Okay.

And I was, they brought me in to have something to eat at the rush. You know, they just brought, they went to go have something to eat. I was too little. Mm-hmm. And my, you know, I was kind of rambunctious. And I was always, you know, you're really anxious. as a kid, you know what I mean? Like always had to be doing something.

Okay. And my mom was the waitress at the time. Tammy, that's who worked at the restaurant, the owner. And she asked if she could hold me. And Grandma Jean and Papa Wayne were like, absolutely. And I,

my mom held me and I guess long story short, I buried my face on her neck and I fell asleep. Okay. And it just touched her. And that's at that point when they started talking about getting guardianship of me. Okay. So that's, yeah, that's kind of how that played out. Okay.

Yeah. And did they have any children of their own at that point? Um, they had, yeah, they had Megan, they had Megan a Miranda. But they were super young. They were young. Um, but I'm the youngest out of, out of them. Yeah.

Okay. So you have two. I have a lot of adopt or a lot of biolog, or I have, let's see. Biological side. I have Bradley, Randy, Caleb, and Jocelyn, and me. So there's five of us biologically. Adoptive side, it goes, Sergio and Tammy had Megan and Miranda. Okay.

And then Sergio and Tammy got divorced when I was eight as well. And then Jerry came in the picture, who was her late husband now. okay and he has uh he had five kids of his own he had jake jerry jennifer mike ronnie those five so after when when tammy remarried jerry they had five more kids in addition to so you have oh no no no no no jerry had five of his own kids before you know bum okay so jerry Jerry, when Jerry married Tammy, he brought in five kids from previous relationships. Yeah, but they lived, they stayed in California. Okay.

We were living in Montana. We moved up to Montana. Sorry, I guess I should have got to that. We moved up to Montana when I was three years old. Okay. Was that to open a restaurant up there? No. Just to move to another state because my grandma and grandpa, on my mom's side, my adoptive mom's, her mom and dad lived in Montana.

Okay. So, all right. So you're in Oakdale. You're born in Merced. You're in Oakdale for a period of time. You're adopted at 17 months and three years. your Sergio and Tammy move to Montana

then they get divorced when you're eight she remarries Jerry who has five kids he's in Montana correct and tell me so tell me a little bit about your relationships

with your adoptive I don't know if I'm saying this right but your adoptive siblings so Megan Miranda and then Jerry's five kids. How did you, how did you get along with them? It was a rough go-around from Megan or Miranda.

Jerry's kids, I didn't really have a lot of interaction with because they were already grown pretty much. Okay. But Megan and Miranda, not so great. I was just very, I was needy as a kid. I developed a lot of behavioral issues when I was younger. Okay. I required a lot of attention.

My mom sacrificed the girls to make sure to, like, and sacrificed her work and everything like that, you know, to attend to me and to attend to my needs. I was diagnosed at a young age. I was tested four different times, neuropsychologically. for mental disabilities. They call it neurocognitive disorder now. Okay. But I was diagnosed at a younger age with

fetal alcohol syndrome, asperger's or autism is what it was called at the time. Intermittent explosive disorder or IED. Okay. Bipolar. Okay. And then that was when I first got tested.

And then growing up, I got tested when I was like 10 or 11. Okay. Again. That was all like before the age of 10? Correct. I just quickly, I assume maybe were you medicated for the bipolar? Yeah. They had me on medications a lot when I was younger.

Okay. If I remember right, it was like Adderall. Straitara, just some other psychiatric meds. Lithium and... Right. Okay. So some of that sounds like... Some of that might sound like a little bit of ADHD, but maybe the bipolar kind of coincides with some of that. Correct. Yeah.

Okay. Are you okay? Yeah, I'm good now. Sorry, I just have my cold. Yeah. So the, you were saying that, so that was before age 10 and then you were saying around 11, you went in for more testing and were there more diagnoses to come after that? No, no, it was just, it actually got progressively better. When I first got tested, my IQ was 57.

Okay. Before 10, you mean? Mm-hmm. I was tested. My first time getting tested was like four years old or five years old. Okay. And then my second testing was like 10 or 11. And my IQ went up to like 60.

Same diagnoses. I got tested again in 2000. 2018. Okay. So recently? I'm sorry, not 2018. I'm sorry. 2014 when I was in the group home. Okay. And what do you remember what they said? Yeah. I mean, I tested when I was in a group on. My IQ went up from 60. The last IQ was at 60, then it went up to 70 or 70. And then the most recent test I did was back in October of last year. And I think my IQ jumped up to like 75 or 80. Okay. So what was the testing that you had done last year?

Mm-hmm. What did that come down? Sorry, save that. Send that to me. I'm sorry. What was the first? what? Yeah, what were they, why were they testing you in October of 2023? For my court hearing, my federal court hearing, my lawyer wanted to get a current

neuropsychological evaluation to help with my court hearing. Was it, were they looking at competency then, or what was the issue? No, not competency. They just wanted, because They wanted to just determine whether or not, you know, just to see, you know, if I'd be fit, you know, if I'm fit for prison, if I had to go or whatnot. It was just, and my lawyer just wanted to get something up to date. Okay. Okay. So, okay, gotcha.

Tell me about the, you mentioned intermittent explosive disorder that was diagnosed. when you were pretty young, what has, has that continued? Does that stayed with you over the years or no? It's no longer a thing even. Like they don't have that diagnosis. So that was dropped later? That was dropped like in your teenage years? The second time I got tested, yeah. Okay, so at age 11, were you, were you, as a child then, where you, it sounds like you had some anger? I was angry as a child. that a lot of it prevailed when I my parents got divorced okay and I wasn't ever like violent I mean I was violent but I was violent a different way I wasn't ever violent against somebody but I would destroy my own stuff or like break CDs or you know sometimes break pens or throw things against

the wall you know just I would snap okay But that did not continue past age, let's say 11. No. Okay. I was in group homes from 11 to 23. For what reason? Just because that I needed help, and I knew I needed help. And it was just becoming too much on my mom, you know, and my sisters.

And, no, it was hard for me to go to group homes, but. In the long run, I don't regret it at all. Okay. It made me who I am today. Yeah. And how would you describe who you are today? A fun, caring, energetic, loving, loyal, optimistic, adventurous. You know, just have that ambition, you know.

that drive, I just don't, I don't want to stop. I want to keep going. Okay. Yeah. Let me go back a little bit to your childhood. Let's, let me go back to your relationship with Megan and Miranda. It sounds like it was a little strained because of all the behavioral issues you were having. Correct.

Could you tell me a little more about that? behavioral issues well just the you know the group homes um it sounds like you were you were acting out a little bit at times

I had a lot of self-harm self-interest behavior issues like I would swallow um I would try to swallow staples and stupid stuff, you know, just, I was really troubled as a kid, you know,

like I, you know, I just, I had a rough time. Not really too much to discuss, honestly. Like, I just, you know, I spent lots of time in different group homes. I think I've been to like four different group homes and, you know. Well, so let me, let me rephrase my question. When you say that your relationship with your two sisters, right, was a little, I forget the word, the little rough was the term used. Yeah. What was, what was causing that?

Why, I mean, if, if a lot of your behavior- I see what you're saying, I see what you're saying. So it was literally because I was taking away from my, sisters a lot because my mom was having to focus so much time on with me and it was taking it away from my sisters you know like yeah you know my mom sacrificed a lot for me you know my sister's sacrificed a lot for me and and i say that in the sense of like you know they just lost out on a lot of attention, you know, a lot of time of mom. And that's what caused a lot of stress.

Gotcha. So would you, would, if I describe that as a bit of resentment, would that seem to make sense? Correct. Okay. Put on the alley. What's that? Uh, buddy showing me a picture of a love seat on, on, on, on, on, uh, freebie alerts, that's for free. And I was like, I was like, man, I could just put that in. alley and go crash.

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Protect yourself now atora.com slash remove. What about your parents both had substance abuse problems, obviously? That's what's led to my disabilities. Okay, but did you Did you have any drug or alcohol problems as a child or teenager? No, I didn't start dabbling like, when I say dabbling, I say it lightly because it was light, like I would, you know, I've tried meth a couple times and I've messed with some coke or weed,

but I've never done, never relied on it as a, a daily ritual you know like it was you know very very very seldom very very very seldom and it was like once in a blue moon and if it was available and it was at a house party or something i was at or and this wasn't until after i was 23 okay yeah after i got out of the group home was when i kind of started falling into those tracks which i'm out of you know what i mean i'm not in those at all um Yeah. But there's times where I dabbled, but it's never caused any substance problems for me, no. So you didn't really use drugs or alcohol as a child or teen?

It wasn't until you were, you said 23. Correct. What about if I asked you about traumatic experiences as a child or teenagers, do you recall anything along those lines that kind of stand out? Nothing traumatic. What about any type of bullying or violence? I was in special ed my whole life. I got a lot of getting bullied in school and stuff like that. And I've gotten a lot of fights, but I've been suspended from school or not expelled.

I never been expelled. But it was never, like it was just hard to deal with a lot in school. Okay. Being bullied, but eventually I learned to stick up for myself. what tell me a little what give me a little more details about some of the bullying do you remember just people calling me a fat fuck and you know just um you know just teasing me about me being retarded because i'm a special ed and

stupid stuff like that you know okay and so were they picking fights with you or were you kind of they were picking fights with me okay do you remember when that started early on like elementary school and like middle school I would say and through high school yeah on that issue just quickly did you did you graduate from high school no I made it to 11th grade okay and then you what happened there uh I ended up transferring to another group home and they didn't allow me to continue schooling. They only let me get my GED.

And at that point, I just wasn't focused enough to get my GED. I kind of given up. Okay. So. So you didn't, you never completed the GED then. You just,

like you said, you just kind of gave up. Correct. When I was in, when I got older and was in like, Montana to the Montana, Developmental Center in Boulder, Montana. I took the GED test, or I started prepping for it.

It's called the Montana High Set is what it's called high school equivalently test. Okay. I passed three of the five tests, and it still stands. It never goes away, so if I ever went back to Montana, I could get it. Okay. How did you? just quickly, how did you get from Montana to Idaho? I got married.

Okay. Was that to Sarah? Mm-hmm. When did you marry her? April 13th, 2018. Okay. And to help me understand, did she live in Idaho? Is that?

Yeah, she lived with her mom. She was on parole. Did you That Did you see that To her being on parole Is a problem Or did that

Honestly not really I thought it was love at first night So it was You know The first time I thought I knew what love was Okay So you really

You really didn't think about Well what first of What was she on parole for Let me ask that Maybe I should back up a little Um Rob one okay

and she stole $40 in gas in Oregon and um she had a cut coat knife in her car and the gas attendant saw it and called the cops and said that he she had threatened him with a knife and um which nowadays I can see it happening

but say more about that would you say that Sarah has some history of violence then yeah okay is that Sarah was very abusive towards me okay

you know throughout our marriage I mean she's been unfaithful to me countless times you know cheated on me usually they say it's the guy that does it to the woman as far as abuse and everything else goes,

it was complete opposite. I cheated on her when she cheated on me. I never initiated the cheating. You know, it was Sarah and I were very toxic for each other down the road on our marriage. You know, there was times where she would punch me or she would spit on me or she would kick me. And there was times where she would hold me,

down on the couch with a butcher knife to my throat. And she at one point held me at gunpoint with a loaded 12-gid shotgun and held it to my chest. And, you know, it's just been a very, that was, I guess, probably the most traumatic thing I've had to deal with. And that would have, so that would have happened after you married her? 20, about 20 of 20. 2020? So most of that occurred in the same year?

Correct. Okay. What, I mean, that sounds pretty bad. What did you do in those situations? My stupid ass stuck with her? Well, I mean, did you try to protect yourself at all? No, I coward down. I coward it down because I'm not a white beater.

I'm not a woman hitter. It will never at any point, finding me, find me hitting a woman ever. Okay. And, or, like, I'm a big guy, you know what I mean? I'm capable of doing a lot of damage, as I've done in previous fights with people. And I just knew what my strength was, and I'm not, I would feel horrible if I hurt her. You know, yeah, she's done a lot of wrong to me.

She's been abusive and, you know, aggressive and violent towards me, but I know my own strength, and I know if I ever hit her, I would do a significant amount of damage. And I just can't see myself doing that. Okay. And I presume that this has something to do with the reason that you're seeking a divorce? Correct. Okay. Was she, was Sarah your first significant relationship then?

My second longest. I was engaged for five years. From ninth grade until, sorry, Courtney was my second longest. And Courtney, or my first, she was my first.

Sorry, my first longest. And she and I were together. She was in eighth grade. I was in ninth. And we were together all the way up until 2011. Okay. What ended that? I went to group homes and started talking to other women just because I was unhappy. You know what I mean? I wasn't unhappy, but we're so far apart, you know? I was just stupid.

And I wanted to dabble. I was young. You know what I mean? And I didn't really take into account. sincere relationship. Okay. Right. So kind of a first love type situation. Correct. And how did she treat you? Really good. Like we were amazing together.

You know, she was never abusive. She's never mean to me. You know, she would always go out of her way to do things. She was, she was a paraplegic. she was in a wheelchair you know but you know wait I believe if I remember right

the way we met she approached me I was walking out of the high school and I remember she approached me from behind and she was hey hey you and I go yeah she goes and then she introduced herself

and I introduced myself and we just kind of clicked you know we exchanged phone numbers and you know know, we're on probably eight to ten dates and, you know, this started, you know, indulging in a relationship. Right. Okay. Do you communicate with her at all these days? No, I don't talk to her. Was her disability, did her disability occur? No, she was born with it. She was born with Spina Bifida.

Okay. Gotcha. which is where you're born with your spine outside of your back. Okay. What about others, were those pretty much Sarah and Courtney were pretty much your two significant relationships? Correct. Would you say those were your only two significant relationships? Long-lasting. I mean, there's a few, you know, relationships.

they weren't really relationships. They're like friends with benefit relationships, you know. Yeah. Okay. What about, I'm talking about medical issues. What about, have you had any, you mentioned the fetal alcohol. Have you had any major medical issues that have affected your life at all? I mean, I've had three eye surgeries, had an appendicitis or appendectomy.

Okay. Um, other than that, no, I mean, I've been pretty, pretty healthy. You know, I played a lot of sports as a kid. A lot of sports. Okay. I was always in the hunting and fishing and loved the outdoors and basketball, baseball, baseball, football. I mean, I was an athlete, you know, I loved playing sports. Did you play sports in, like, do you?

junior high in high school for the school teams at all? For that. Okay. What would you consider to be your favorite sport? Football. Okay. Did you play for the high school team? I played, I didn't make it high school football.

I tried out and then I just kind of got over it. Just kind of wasn't into it anymore. But when I played in middle school, I played defensive linemen, noseguard and kicker. This would have been in Montana, right? Correct, Belgrade. Okay. Staying with the medical issues a little bit.

What about, have you had any recent mental health diagnoses at all? I know you mentioned some from childhood, but what about current? No. Nothing? What about non-diagnosed? What about any mental health issues that you see might be applicable to you, such as, I don't know, like depression or anxiety or that kind of stuff i mean i have depression every now and then but and anxiety sometimes but that's not what it used to be okay it used so tell me what it used to be

much worse yeah when you were a child when you were a kid yeah what when you think about that what what do you think what do you think what happened? How did it improve for you? I mean, group homes really helped a lot. I actually became a positive role model to and an influence to a lot of the clients there where they were reliant on me to, you know, and calum me to help them through struggles

and stresses that they were going through. Okay. What about how do you, think how do you think in general you do with stress coping with stress? Significantly amazing. Okay. What could you talk a little bit more about that? Just I handle my stress a lot better than most people who have a hard time of stress.

You know, I know my biggest coping skill for stress is music. Okay. You know, I get up every day and I usually turn my YouTube premium on or my Spotify and I'll just buy it with music. It's literally what makes me get through the day. Okay. You mentioned some of your strengths earlier. What do you see as some of your challenges, though? Maybe some of your weaknesses.

I haven't really thought about that, honestly. I tried to think positive most of the time. time. I think a big part of my weakness would probably be communication. Um, it's hard for me to open up to things, especially going through what I did with Sarah. Now, she kind of shut me down a little bit, like it made myself shut down and, you know, like it's, you know, I'm talking to this one girl that I, you know, her and I really like each other. And, you know, one of the things, you know, one of the things that we agreed upon, you know, is communication with each other. And, you know, I told her, you know, it's going to be a challenge for me because of the way Sarah treated me.

And, you know, she's, she's understanding, you know, she knows how to work with it, you know. And she's working on that herself, too, you know. This is someone more recent that you're talking to. Yeah. Okay. Gotcha. Did you, I presume. that you don't have children, right?

Thank God. Okay. Was that something you talked about with Sarah? Yeah, she wanted to have kids, but I couldn't perform and have, I mean, I could perform, but I couldn't have kids. Okay. What, um, could you, I know that's kind of a personal thing. Do you, can you, can you elaborate on that?

You don't have to, but I, I, bull rode as a kid. I, I, I know, I was stupid. hung out with a group of buddies and we all went to his dad's ranch and I was basically dared to hop on a bowl and I did and I got kicked bucked off the bowl and the bull stomped on my balls pretty much and crushed my left nut you want to be so you're not you have I'm inferred Correct. Yeah. Okay. How do you feel about that now? I think why they have kids with Sarah.

But what about, I mean, what about in general, though? Do you... I mean, it sucks because I do want a kid and I wanted a kid, but it's hard because I know that as a felon, you can't adopt. So, yeah, it's been a struggle. But, you know, again, it's consequences that I have to live with. You know, it's my choices. as nobody else's. You know, I'm the one that did the damage.

Yeah. How old were you when that happened? Right. High school, so 14, 15. Okay. Okay. I mean, so what, just in general, what, you know, how do you relate to children? I absolutely adore children.

I have nieces and nephews. I think I have like 21. Say that again, 21 nieces and nephews. Is that what you said? Okay. Yeah. And tell me about your relationships with them. Just, I mean, when I've hung out with them, I'm always, they loved me, you know.

I just, I was on to, I've always been that loving uncle, you know. They enjoyed hanging out with me and spending time with me and, you know, they would fall asleep with me. And, you know, it was just, it was amazing, you know. I just, I have a passion for, for my family, you know, and kids in general. Okay. Yeah. What, when you say 21 nieces and nephews, I presume you're talking about. All together.

Right. So Jerry's. Between Jerry. Jerry's kids mostly, yes. Jerry's kids mostly. Okay. And Jerry's kids would have been a little older. I assume, right?

Yeah, yeah. Okay. So, so you do well with kids. Very well. What quality do you think you have you possess that, you know, makes, allows you to be so close to children?

Honestly, just my heart, you know, my, my compassion, I guess, you know, how caring I am, you know, how interactive I am. Okay. Let me shift gears a little bit.

I heard you mentioned in there that you said that you had a felony. Is that related to your recent stay in jail? I have numerous felonies. I have probably six or seven felonies. All right. Can you tell me a little bit about those? nothing severe my starting

my first felony was my federal felony that was in 2019 what happened there a false statement during a firearms transaction I made a mistake on the background check when I bought my gun and the ATF picked it up and

indicted me I spent nine months in federal holding and then got nine months credit for time served and a year of probation. Okay. And so that would have been, let's see, 2019, that would have put you in Idaho? No, Montana. Oh, you were still in Montana. So you married, but you married Sarah in 2018.

You didn't move to Idaho until later? Correct. Okay. I didn't move to Idaho until 2020. So when I so here's how it went down. So I got indicted by the feds in 2019 on my first judge. I did nine months federal holding. I never made it to prison.

Got sentenced April 4th, 2019. So I was initially picked up by the feds in 2018, July, July. July of 2018. So I was in federal holding from July 2018 all the way until April 4th, 2019. Okay. What type of, just out of curiosity, what type of a firearm were you purchasing?

A pistol. Pistol. And what was your, did you have a purpose for that? A firearm for hunting? Okay. So. Tell me about that quickly. What you, you mentioned hunting earlier. I mean, so hunting is something you enjoy?

Oh, grew up hunting. I still bow hunt. I love bo hunting because that's the only thing I can do. Okay. When did you start hunting? Oh, young. Probably, I took a hundred safety when I was 12. Okay.

And what, just tell me a little bit more about that. What were you? you, what's, were there specific, um, hunts you were going on or what, what were you hunting? Elk, deer, birds. I mean. Okay. Mostly in Montana then?

Montana. Okay. So you have the federal charge in 2019. It's a, it's a felony, obviously. That sticks, right? And then you said you had, what, five or six others charges? Yeah, so I Throughout the time of moving to Idaho

Or Yeah, Idaho So after 2020 I acquired like six other felonies I think it was about six But writing a bad check Or negotiating a bad check You know writing checks to places Knowing I didn't have the funds in the account

Okay And then So I got felonies for those I did two or three of them. I have a theft, a classy theft from Walmart. I think that one actually turned out to be a misdemeanor. So maybe I only have like four or five felonies, but I can send you the screenshots of my background check that I did through Uber

about a month ago so you can see them. Okay. Yeah, Lauren's not on here anymore, but I was going to say, if you want to just, if you can shoot those, can you text her those or something? You want me to do it right now? Or do you want to wait? No, no, no, whatever.

Just later's fine. Oh, I got you okay. It's not that critical. Yeah. There's no. I have no reason to verify your, you know. Yeah, you know, good. I don't have a problem disclosing it.

It's all public record anyway. Yeah. Right, right. So mostly financial crimes, fraud. Yeah. Correct. And some of those. were felonies, some were misdemeanors?

Two were misdemeanors, the rest were... The other one was, I think, a felony. And then I have the two Fed charges, so... Was the latest charge... The latest charge was some firearm? No, it was a federal charge. Okay. And tell me about that. I sold a...

I mean, you would have thought I would have learned after becoming a felon not to have guns, but I've always been intrigued by guns. Okay. Why? What's intrigued you about guns? I just love guns. I don't know. I love shooting.

I love shooting things. Like, the gun I sold was a 17 caliber HMR. It's a 22 caliber neck down to a 17. Velocity is like 3,500 feet per second at the muzzle. Um, no, it's accurate up to like 200 yards, 300 yards at tops. Um, oh, I have that. I had a Creedmoor, 6.5 Creedmore. I've had an AR 15.

Um, I've had like two different 17 HMRs. Uh, had an odd six, 30 odd six. Yeah, just different guns, you know. always been a gun person, 22s. But were those, so I, I assume most of those were pre-felony? Correct. Except for, except for like the 17s and the 6.5 Creedmoors and

AR-15. I mean, those are after felony, but I, there's a website that I use where you can buy guns without doing background checks. It's like a classified website. Okay. And do you have any guns now then? Oh, hell no.

I would never fuck with the gun at the beginning day of my life. Okay. So tell me about the latest felony you had was some violation. Fell in the possession of a firearm. Okay. And what year was that? 20, 23. Okay.

And you were obviously. convicted. You said that you were never put in prison, though? You were just held in jail? Correct. Federal holding. And, okay. What was your sentence on that? 21 months

with 18 months credit for time served and three years supervised release. Okay. So you're just starting your supervised release now or fairly recently? And November. November 6th. Okay. What are your, besides not owning firearms, what are some of the conditions of your parole?

No alcohol, no drug use, no associating with known felons. Other than that, I mean, it's super laid back. I mean, I could travel anywhere in the whole state of Idaho without getting permission from the probation officer. Whereas like if you're on state probation. you can only travel within your jurisdiction that you live. So 80 County is a jurisdiction. Caney County is a jurisdiction. Federal holding, you have a jurisdiction,

but you're not bound to stay in that jurisdiction if you want to travel. As long if you want to leave out of state, then you have to get permission from your PL. But you can literally travel anywhere in the whole state, Idaho at any time. or the state that you reside in without getting permission. So you can go, in other words, like you said, you can go across counties, county lines. Correct.

And where are you now? Are you? Ada County. So are you in Fruitland still? No, Boise. I'm sorry? Boise. Boise?

Okay. Gotcha. And I think you mentioned the other day that are you you are staying in a shelter what's that staying in a shelter shelter so not like a halfway house

uh shelter homeless shelter correct okay um on that issue what is there are there

uh some stipulations about employment in your in your conditions yeah yeah there is but my PO's understanding because I've literally been red flagged from employment. I've been red flagged from hotels.

Okay. Why have you been red flagged? Because of the accusations that have been made against me or allegations. Okay. Well, so let's dig into that a little bit. Here it goes. Here it goes, yeah. Flash off.

Do you feel like you've provided a decent understanding? I feel like I know you a lot better from just asking you some questions about your history. And do you feel like there's that you've given us a good picture? Absolutely. Are there some things I've missed here that you want to tell us about yourself before we? Nope. Okay. Yeah.

Well, so I don't know. I'll let you take. the lead here. Just tell me tell me about this whole situation. So you start with the questions. I'll just answer. I think the easiest place to start would be with the date of

Michael's disappearance on July 27th, 2021. So Michael goes missing presumably late afternoon, early evening. I presume that, you know, I know you've talked about this some other places, but I presume people have asked you about a timeline.

Can you maybe reiterate some of that or talk about that? Yeah. So, I mean, July 27th is a, I mean, it's a normal day for us. know we own a taxi company i still own the taxi company okay um just a a normal day you know got up you know did our morning routine breakfast showered you know coffee it's your average normal routine in the morning and i know adrian wanted to go see his um as son or daughter, I believe, that lived in Nampert or Boise.

I don't remember exactly. So Sarah and Brandon had taken Adrian approximately 11, I want to say in the morning, and took him to his location. We went to Ross, did some shopping for Adrian. I think it was Ross. because you want to do... Let me just stop you for a second. So just to clarify that Sarah and yourself, obviously, you're married, you're living together,

but Brandon and Adrian are also at this point. Staying with us at the time. They're staying with you in your house. So explain that to me. Like, why are they living with you guys? So Brandon, Sarah and I've known Brandon for... since 20 of 20. I met Brandon before Sarah met Brandon.

I met Brandon doing a moving job, I believe, through Labor Dave's. Labor Dave is a, like, an independent contractor out of Boise, which to my knowledge, I heard he deceased, but I'm not 100% sure on that. His name was David Fears. Okay. that's how I met Brandon and then after met Brandon

um you know we kind of stayed in contact you know after the job and you know we Sarah and I were staying in a hotel in June when I got out of prison in 2020 I got out May 4th

2020 and went, we stayed at a hotel in Boise pending, uh, Sarah's parents' house in Fruitland, the one we were living in, uh, waiting for it to become vacant because the previous tenants were moving out. Um, so we stayed in a hotel for a month that our parents paid for. Um, we stayed at the airport in in Boise. Um, And Brandon had come and visit us quite a bit at the airport in and hung out with us and went swimming with us and stuff like that. And then that's how we met Brandon. And so Brandon came into our life and, you know, was kind of down and out and looking for a place to kind of chill and hang out.

And it turned in one night turned into the, you know, helping them out with the place to stay, then turned into the next night. and then ended up, you know, just pretty much being like a on and off person that say another house. You know, Sarah and I were very firm believers in helping people. We would love to help people out. You know, we're just Christian-based, you know. I always believed in, you know, giving the shirt off our back to help somebody. And so that's how Brandon Kim about. And then Adrian came about from a taxi ride that Sarah, he called Sarah, called our line, and wanted a taxi rides, claimed he was living behind a dumpster and Caldwell and all this other nonsense or whatever.

I don't know what's the truth or what's not the truth, but gave Sarah a sob story, because I didn't pick him up, Sarah did. and this is way before Michael went missing, by the way, like early July. And Adrian gave Sarah that sob story about living behind a dumpster or not and said he was looking for a place to live for a little bit. The time being that he had unemployment income from New York is what he said. And we're like, okay. because he was like, I'll pay you guys like $2.50 a week. I'm like, okay. You know.

And so Sarah called me and was like, how do you feel about this? And at that time, you know, I told Sarah, I was like, I don't really think it's going to be a good idea because, you know, we don't really have the finances to help. You know, to support somebody. Like, he really has to be serious about paying his way. And it was just, it was just. it was a shit show pretty much. Did he, so, but did, did Adrian, so Adrian moves in after you meet him on the taxi ride, July, early July 2021, does he pay you rent or not?

It became a hassle. So he paid, he said he was getting paid like that next week. ended up being a, you know, a situation where his money didn't come through or some shit like that. And he's like, well, I'll get you guys double next week. And then so next week he only paid half of what he was supposed to pay on the double. And it just became a progressive issue, which is why we kicked him out in August, or like late July or August. I don't remember exactly.

But, you know, that's how Brett. or Adrian came about, you know, he was initially just a taxi ride and, you know, needed a place to live. And I was opposed to it, but Sarah convinced me and was like, you know, let's just try to help him. I was like, fine. And you, you, why did you guys kick him out? And so he was only with you for a couple months?

Correct. And why did you end up kicking him out so soon? He just became a problem. He was problematic, a lot of drama. and Sarah was doing things behind my back with him sexually, and I found out about it, and it's become a significant issue, you know. Okay.

So did, were you the one who kicked him out then? No, Sarah did. Sarah did? Yeah. Even though I think you just kind of said that she was being unfaithful to you, with him. Yeah. No, I told Sarah, pretty much told Sarah that he needed to go.

Okay. So Sarah went and told him he had to go. Okay, so you, so. I initiated it, yeah. Okay. I was trying to understand that. So you, you, you wanted him out, but you, for whatever reasons, you couldn't tell him directly. It's just hard for me, you know, like.

I don't, I'm not mean like that, you know, but I just couldn't, I didn't have it in me, you know. So I told Sarah she needed to get rid of them. Okay. So she, she's the one who went in and actually had to tell him and to leave. Correct. And how did he, was he, was he okay with that? Did he, did he leave? Yeah.

Yep. Okay. All right. So, well, thanks. for helping me understand why or how Brandon and Adrian landed in your home. And the home, by the way, just to clarify it, so the home belonged to Sarah's parents? Correct. They're the owners of the home. Do they still own that home?

Yes. Is somebody living there now? No, they're talking about renting it out again. Okay. Um, so let's go back. Let's go back to the 27th. So you said you woke up kind of a normal day. Sarah and Brandon are going to take Adrian to visit his son in, did you say Nampa? Nampa or Boise? Yeah. And so, like, what time are we talking about with that?

About 11 o'clock, if I recall. So do they leave then at 11 a.m. and go do that? Correct. Okay, so they go with Adrian to Nampa. That presumably leaves you alone at the house at 11. Correct. So keep walking me through it. So Sarah calls me about an hour or so later.

Says that there's a taxi ride that needs to go from Ontario to Boise. I was like, I can do that. So I got ready and, you know, shoes and socks and everything like that. And got an Alexis that we had and about one o'clock it took off. Okay. So that would have been roughly one-ish, one in the afternoon. How long does that tax? ride take? It takes about 60 minutes to get from Fruitland to Boise. So you're back roughly by

3.3.30-ish? No, I hung out in Boise with Labor Day. I went and stopped at his house for probably, I would say, 20 or 30 minutes maybe. And then made it back, or drove back to Ontario um went to I think I had to go pick up another taxi call that wanted to go to A and W in Ontario

so I took them went to Ontario and mind you I have timestamps from me going to the the A and W in Ontario let's say you all right yeah I don't Right, I'm sure you'll, have you talked to, have you been interviewed by the police yet?

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Okay, so obviously they're going to, they're going to look at everything. Yeah. So that the taxi call is roughly 3.30-ish until like what, four? Say about 4.30 or maybe, I would say probably 4, 430 or 5 in that time zone. Um, got back Sarah and Brandon and Adrian had stayed in Boise. He stayed the night.

Okay. And, uh, so it was just Sarah and Brandon at the house. I got home. They were just hanging out on their phones, just doing their thing. And, um, Sarah told me that Brandon wanted to go pick up his car from CUNA and needed it. We had to tow it because he blew the spark plugs out of the cylinders. Okay. So wait, this is Brandon's car had the, wasn't working.

So where was his car? CUNA. Okay. Is that, that's in the voice. Where is that? That's about 48 minutes from Fruitland. Okay. So by my calculations, this would put us around 5 p.m. And you and Sarah are, and Brandon, are going to go get his car?

Correct. So you get in your vehicle to do that? Yeah. So, yeah, we went and I grabbed the tow strap from the garage. because we didn't have a trailer, so I had to tow it. Keep in mind, we had to tow it with a strap. Okay. So we got everything ready. Brandon, you know, got all those clothes ready and because he had a bunch of clothes, dirty clothes.

And so he got his clothes ready, put him in his duffel bag. and we went through the garage and I'm up through the toe strap in the back of the truck and then we took off. We stopped outside the subdivision on the Southwest 8th and about Arizona Street a little bit before pulled off because and then mind you Sarah's driving. Brandon's in the back seat behind me and I'm in the passenger. side. I'm a big guy, so it's hard for me to drive all the time.

I was hard for me to drive for a lot all the time. And Sarah was a good driver, so I just let her do it. Okay. So we stopped. And I needed to put power steering fluid in the truck because it was whining super bad. And it was a known issue. You know what I mean? I hadn't put this.

That was the first time we used that truck that day. but usually every day we have to fill it up. And so, wait, wait, say that again. Every day you had to put power steering fluid in it? Correct. Every day? Correct.

Was there a leak in the? Yes, correct. Okay, so here, a quick question. So I'm going to play devil's advocate here for a second, okay? Right? Because knowing that, wouldn't you put the power steering fluid in? before you left for the trip, you're saying you had to stop.

Yeah, we did stop because it wasn't, so when you start the truck, it doesn't, it didn't make the noise right away. The truck had to warm up a little bit. But as we left out of the neighborhood, or out of our subdivisions, when we noticed when we made the left turn

outside the neighborhood, is when we noticed it was really bad. I was like, hey, you know, Sarah, let's stop. And let me fill up. top off the power steering foot it wasn't empty empty but it was low enough to where it was causing it to whine and i had i i'm i'm a mechanic you know what i mean so i know you know i know when something needs something and okay um that was why we didn't fill it up before we left because it it just wasn't uh it didn't act like it needed it um okay so even though even though you knew

again like I'm just I'm thinking of what I would do in your scenario like I probably you know okay so my my my car is older and it it eats a ton of oil right so I know like every month I have to put in you know a couple of quarts of oil otherwise my hand is going to blow up so um but I don't stop to do that I'll do that you know at home in the driveway um like knowing that and honestly honestly just just to sure you're aware to I think it wasn't it might have been more of like I just didn't think to put it in before we left okay I don't think it was that I was avoiding the issue because I usually always kept everything topped off what I mean and I think it was more so like I just forgot to top it off and again you can't

really tell that it needs something you need it needed fluid until like made the whining noise and it didn't do that until after it heated up Okay, so you hear the whining noise, you stop the truck. I'm just guessing on the time here, you can correct me, but you're stopping around maybe, is it like 5.30-ish at this point? I think we left the house more so like six. Okay. So you're stopping the truck at 15-ish?

Correct. Correct. Okay. and you're stopping, you're stopping somewhere outside of your neighborhood a little bit, I assume. And how long does it take you to put the fluid in? 10, 20 seconds, 30 seconds, maybe a minute. Okay, but I mean, you have to stop, you have to put the hood up, right? I don't know.

Oh, yeah. All together, I mean, I'd say maybe five minutes. five, okay, five minutes. Yeah. What, and so, I mean, I don't, I don't know the exact timelines here in terms of, you know, when Michael's leaving his home or goes missing or anything. I have no idea. I know it's afternoonish, but you stop.

Do you notice anything at that point? Not at that point. I mean, Sarah, I had Sarah pop the hood. Okay. Or I got out of the truck. passenger side walked around to open the latch on the hood put the hood up

pop the power steering cap off ports of fluid in it I noticed there was a kid playing further down the road excuse me sorry but it wasn't Michael I can tell that 100%

this kid was definitely older probably nine, ten years old, dark hair. You looked more like, excuse my language, more like a Mexican or like, you know, Hispanic. He just wasn't Michael's description at all. How old was this boy that you saw, would you guess? I'd say probably eight, nine, ten years old.

Definitely older, like more physique. You know what I mean? like when more filled up filled in more defined. Did you, on that issue, did you know, did you know some of the kids in the neighborhood? No.

You didn't, you didn't know any of the kids in the neighborhood? No, we didn't hang out with it. You're like, you might see them or drive by them. Yeah, we see kids, but we never personally know.

On a personal level, no, we never, Sarah and I didn't really hang out with a lot of the neighbors. We kind of stayed to ourselves. You know, there wasn't, like, we didn't even, you know, when Michael Vaughn went missing, we didn't even know who Michael Vaughn was, never heard the name,

and didn't know where he, never know that, that name existed. Like, they didn't even know who he was and know his family, nothing, never even been down the street that he lived on. Okay. And so when did you learn that Michael Vaughn went missing, by the way? When we got back into the neighborhood. That night? Yes.

Okay. How did you learn that he was missing? That seems pretty quick. Well, no. We learned it because we got back into the neighborhood later on that night, like 10.30, 11 o'clock, maybe 1115. I don't know. Got back and noticed that the whole neighborhood was swarmed with people. Okay.

And I told Sarah to stop. and we stopped Brandon was steering his car behind us and we were in the Sarah and I were in the truck and we stopped and rolled down our window and asked what was gone and said a little boy has disappeared. Okay. And we were shocked. We're like never even heard of this happening.

I mean out of the years we, you know, the year and a half we lived on our house, none of this has ever happened. Never heard of it. And so it was a shock to us, you know, Like we're like this is where this is supposed to be a secure neighborhood. You know. That's right.

Well, okay. So let's go back to the, let's go back to your. Okay, well, let me ask you that. I got to ask you this before I continue with this. But when you got, when you were leaving, you know, assuming that I don't, again, I don't know the timelines here, but when you're leaving around six or whatever and you stop around 615 or 620 for the for the steering fluid. Did you happen to see any suspicious vehicles or?

No. Did you happen to see any suspicious people in the neighborhood? Um, okay. You just, you just saw just one younger boy. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Nothing was on, you know, nothing was weird about it. Like he just looked like a boy who was just playing in the neighborhood.

Do you remember? I mean, I know, I know you were trying to, you know, get your fluid in and move on. But, I mean, it seems like this could be an important moment. Did you notice anything about the boy? Do you remember what he was playing with, what he was wearing, anything like that? I know, we had, like, a couple toys, but it was in the yard. You know what I mean? There was nothing weird about it.

Like, it just seemed like a normal neighborhood boy. and no different from the other day that we drove or left our neighborhood you know was he sitting down was he walking

he was standing up in his in the yard standing up was he walking somewhere? No, he was just standing around in the yard

okay like by himself I guess I if I recall it yeah I mean he was he was I mean, inside a residential area. You know what I mean?

Like his own, I assumed it would have been his own home. Was he, do you remember, where was he in relationship to Michael Vaughn's house? Do you remember by any chance? Complete opposite side. Like, whole other street. Okay. He was on 8th Street. Michael's house was on 9th Street, which you literally have to drive like 500 yard

or 500 feet to the next street. You know what I mean? And I don't know where Michael's house is. Like I said, I've never been on that street. Yeah, I don't, maybe I don't understand your neighborhood well. But so you, prior to, prior to learning he was missing, you would never, you didn't know who he was and you'd never, ever been on that street before. Correct.

Okay. Hey, and a question for you. Can we, uh, my, I was wondering if we could end this about nine if that's okay. Uh, yeah, let's see. I think your time difference. Yeah, like 30 minutes? Yeah. Yeah, that's fine.

Okay. Awesome. Thank you. I just wanted to ask you. Yeah, yeah. My phone's got like 20% and I don't have a way to charge my phone. So. Sure.

Yeah, that's fine. Um, let's shoot for, I, your time difference is, is throwing me off, but we'll for let's say 30 minutes if that's if that works. Yes, that's good with me. Is that good? So, okay, so you change the steering fluid. It's roughly 615, 620-ish. You drive off with Sarah and Brandon to get the truck.

Get the car. I'm sorry, the car. What time do you think it is roughly when you exit town? I don't remember. I'd say probably maybe 645, 6.45, 6.5. 650 Okay And then

You drive to You said it's like 40 plus minutes Correct So you get to the location of Brandon's car around 730-ish Yeah 740, 730ish

Yeah Okay And then you To the car Well you must have spent some time there And then you return to the neighborhood it around 10.30, 11 o'clock. Okay. What? So you didn't, you obviously, you get the car, you spend some time there, I guess.

Yeah. Brandon wanted, Brandon washed his laundry at his mom's house. Okay. Because he didn't have any clean clothes at our house. Not that we didn't have a washer and dryer, but Brandon was very weird in a lot of ways. He liked to do things the way he liked, just like he liked to drink his water at his house, more than he drank our water in our house, but he drank so much water at our house. So I don't even know. That's why I said his stories don't match up. But he just ended up doing a load of laundry at his house and then went back. We'll cover this touch it. But long story, he went back the following day with Sarah and they, so he could dry his clothes. But,

The night in question when we towed his vehicle back, he had rotten fresh clothes with him. Okay. And did he, so did he repair his vehicle before the next, or before the next day? Oh, no. No, it wasn't even, it wasn't something that was going to happen overnight, not at all. I mean, I literally was going to help him fix his car, and then I realized how much in pain in the ass it was going to be because I would have to go re-thread all of the holes all of the cylinder holes where the spark plugs were because he blew him out okay so um did so just

let's uh so tell me what you guys you get the his car back what do you guys do that not you get back around 10 30 is 1045 i think you said yes What happens that evening in the next morning? So I was unloading, I was on, after we stopped and found out that a little boy got, or went disappeared. We drove back, finished driving back to our house. And we went to, Brandon and Sarah went and went and looked for Michael to help look for him. And then I was at home detaching the car from the truck because we were taking up the length of the street. Okay.

So you, you, you were, Sarah and Brandon were out and about in the neighborhood trying to maybe locate Michael and you were at home by yourself? Correct. And when did they get back? Do you remember? Not probably, I want to say 12, 12, 30-ish in the morning. Oh, so they were out for a chunk of time, yeah. They spent a couple of hours? Yeah.

They went out looking for them. Okay. And what were you doing during that time? Do you remember? I think I went and passed out. Honestly, after I got the truck and done and stuff like that, I, if I recall, right, I probably fell asleep. I was pretty exhausted. But I know what Sarah came home and Brandy came home and I asked if they, they were able to help find anything.

and they said no. Okay. Okay. And then what about, so you passed out, you went to sleep somewhere in there. What about the next morning? What do you guys do the next morning?

Do you remember? I just stayed home waiting for taxi calls. Sarah took Brandon to his house to go finish his laundry. And then they came back a few hours later. carried on their daily routine. Okay. Yeah, what time did they leave to go back to Brandon's house?

Early morning, probably nine or ten. Okay. Again, I, you know, I have to ask, did you, did you see anything, or Brandon, do they see anything suspicious in the neighborhood or unusual? Not at all. Okay. So I have to ask. you about this because it's, you know, there's a, because I think it's really important, but I want you to help me understand it, actually. So there was an article when, when Sarah was

arrested and she was charged with the felony, the failure to report of death, she made some statements to the police and the probable cause statement. And, you know, it's a little confusing to me. So I thought I would just ask you about it because it seems really important. But, you know, Sarah says, she tells the police, quote, I never murdered anyone. She says these are direct quotes about what Sarah said, quote. The most highest God told me that. Yeah.

Yeah. The most high God already told me who did it. Then she told the police, quote, oh, wow, wow. the most high God just told me that Stacy was the one who killed him and buried him in the yard of the neighbor's house. What's going on there? Sarah's completely psycho. Okay. She, I don't even know where, I was in jail, so I don't even know where she got such a thing.

It makes no sense at all. Um, she just, she goes off on tangents. Um, okay. I, I literally think that she was living in a demonic state of mind. Um, I can tell, like I told everybody here, like, I, I don't even know anything about the, little boy or anything of him or his family or anything. I know I would not ever do something like this in my existence on earth.

Like, I can't. I don't even have a heart to get in a fight with somebody and hurt them. So Sarah basically points the finger at you, but, you know, I think what, what maybe troubled me the most about this article is that you had also told police, you had given police a tip that Michael was buried somewhere in the yard. So it seemed like you kind of corroborated Sarah's story. Tell me about that. No, so at that time, I was being,

interrogated by the police, the detectives and everybody else. And I had told them at least, they did probably four interviews within five interviews. And each and every one of those videos, or interviews, I literally told them, I do not have any information for you. I don't know what

happened to this little boy. And I, I don't even know who. this person is or his family or anything, I'd know nothing of him. And I'll keep in mind with my disabilities and stuff, like part of, and I'm just telling you how it works with somebody with fetal alcohol syndrome. Okay. When you, when you, when somebody gets interrogated to the point of, to so much pressure, when somebody gets with fetal alcohol syndrome gets put,

and an extensive amount of pressure. Okay. Their automatic responses to respond was something to get them off their back, to get them off their case. Okay. So I made up that fable saying he was buried in the backyard, knowing damn well, there was nobody ever buried in the backyard.

But I made it that because I wanted to get them off my back. I was tired of being yeah I was in the I was in so much pressure and and like literally tears okay because I I I didn't have anything to give them and they kept they were like oh you know something tell us what you know I I don't fucking know anything I don't have the funniest clue

what you guys are referring to okay and so that's when I came up with that fable and told him he was buried in the backyard. And I specifically, now keep in mind, they kept pointing out the shed. I never told him he was buried by the shed. I said he, if you walk out the back door of the backyard, if you walk straight towards the middle of the fence, he's right in the middle of the backyard. They specifically dug in that spot and found nothing. And I knew they wouldn't.

Because there was no boy ever buried in that yard. So just so I'm clear, when you make these points, just so I'm clear, and just so we can dismiss that you're involved in this at all, would you be willing to say that I don't know what the police have looked at? I don't know if they've gone through your house. I'm not sure what they've done, but would it be fair to say that there would be no trace evidence whatsoever of Michael Vaughn in your yard? in your house, absolutely. On your porch, anywhere around your property at all,

there should not be any trace evidence or evidence that Michael Vaughn was ever at your residence. Would that be inaccurate? Correct. Could you confirm that, please? Absolutely, I confirm that. Okay, thank you. So, you know, when you say that the police pressure was really intense,

I guess, I understand what you're saying about, like, the fetal alcohol for sure. you know, it's got to be, it's got to be difficult. But, you know, I had asked you earlier about how you cope with stress, and you said that you were really good with coping with stress. You know, so you kind of, you contradicted yourself a little there. Is it, could you just explain that then? Like I said, my biggest key essential to coping with stress is music.

Okay. I have that opportunity to listen to music in jail. Okay. So when you're in jail, you have to find alternative ways to cope with things because you're confined in the space. And so I did not have the same coping skills that I used on the outs that I could use in jail. And so it was very hard for me. Normally, I'm very good at, like I said, coping with being under pressure, being under stressful situations. but when you're in jail, it's a whole other ballgame. There's not, you don't have resources or alternative to just help you relieve stress other than deep breaths.

And being interrogated the way I was, music wasn't an option. Taking deep breaths wasn't an option. As much as I did use deep breaths. It just wasn't, it wasn't sufficient. what about in the again in the i'm referring to this article that talks about the probable cause sarah you know initially she said god told her what happened and then she switched it to you told her so she's she's it seems like she's making kind of a direct disclosure that you told her that you know you're misinterpreting the the probable cause god

told her, the most highest God told her what happened. And then she said that God told her that I did it. Okay. I never, no, it never said that I told her because I would never, I would never be okay with something like this. And if I ever knew anything about this, I would never hold back. I would be the first person to throw them onto the bus. Anybody that I suspected being a part of it or even a, I, intimate, I would you the first person to report it.

Well, on that issue, so she also said she kind of implied that she, well, I'll read what she said. So she, she quote, identify, she, she said instead, so I guess at the end of this, it appears that she seemed to believe that you knew, but, but it's not clear. and then she says that, quote, Adrian had been the one that had done it, and he was scared to tell anyone. Tell me about, so she actually, in the end,

I guess she points the finger at Adrian. What's your take on that? Again, Sarah's inconsistent with any of her statements. First, it was God that told her. Then she tried to say that I told her, which I never did. And then she said that God told her that I did it. Okay.

And then she said that Adrian did it. So, I mean, you really think about it. I mean, what would your perspective be on it? You know what I mean? Like, there's no consistency with her stories. None. You know, how do you go from saying one thing, then move to a next? Then, oh, well, this really happened.

This is who did it. and then goes through that to Adrian. Like, there's no, there's, there's a reason the police aren't taking her, her, um, her statement seriously. And if they are, it's beyond me, but.

Yeah. And I'll never know. You know what I mean? Like, it's not, it's not like I've access to that. You know what I mean? I don't want to. Like, I know I didn't play a part in this. at all or have knowledge or have any any hint of knowledge. What about Adrian? Is that, is there,

could there be any accuracy? Did, could he have known something about this? So at the time of meeting him, I wouldn't think, I wouldn't have thought so. When I got interrogated by the police, they told me that Adrian had a history of human trafficking.

Okay. Now, mind you, apparently to some, of the other YouTubers that have done background checks on them, they say they can't find any information saying that he has that history. Again, I'm just going off of secondhand knowledge

from what the detectives told me. Okay. So if that is true, then I wouldn't put it past him. I just don't see how it's even possible because he wasn't even home that day. So that doesn't make any sense. So that's why I said,

I don't think he would have any part in it. it just doesn't nothing clicks with it wasn't he well i know the three so he would have been home for some of the day right no they left that morning remember to go take him to go see his kids he stayed overnight in boise or nampa to go spend the night with his kid and his mom his baby mom right so that okay he never came home that day i wasn't clear if he came back so he no no no no never came home that day. He stayed out that whole day and night. Okay. Um, I mean, but can you is, I don't know, I'm just think outside the box here a little bit. Is it feasible that he could have had some involvement without you knowing? I don't know. It's, it's, I don't think so. Not, I mean,

not if you're 40 to 60 miles away, you're in that time frame. What's they're going to do, like fly a magic Magic school bus? No, I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is that perhaps he knew that Michael was in the neighborhood or seen him around or he could. I don't know how he could have planned it. I'm just saying. I don't think so. I don't think so.

You don't think Adrian? Had any involvement, no. So you know, did he know Michael? No. No. No. Okay. Did Brandon know, Michael?

No. Okay. Well, I mean, those were, you know, those were some of my big questions. You said at the beginning of this that you kind of wanted to put your thoughts together based on my questions. Does anything occur to you now that have you had a chance to kind of formulate more of your thoughts since we've been talking? No. Like I said, my story is the same story as you'll hear on any of the, the other interviews, like, I ain't got nothing. You know what I mean? I don't have anything to do with this. Would never want anything to do with something like this.

And would be the first to give away any firsthand knowledge or hints that I was able to pick up. Like, I would literally probably, I won't say kill, but I would allegedly hurt somebody really bad if I ever found out they did something like that to a little boy and I knew about it. I'm not okay with this at all. And I want justice to be served. And I want Michael to come home. I want his family to be at peace. I cry nightly hoping his little boy comes home for his family. I can't even imagine or fathom what they're going through.

Yeah, it's horrible. It's the most devastating thing of hurt in my life. Yeah. So just from being in that neighborhood, have you thought about possible scenarios or, I mean, you know, I don't, have you thought about what could have happened? Any ideas on that? I don't know.

No, I don't, I mean, you just, when you think of a little boy going missing, I mean, you think of a thousand things, you know, but I mean, nothing different than any other normal person would think, you know. I mean, how could it happen? When could it happen? What vehicle were they in? You know, what time did this happen? You know, how was it thought of?

How was it planned? You know, just the general thought process of what would go through your mind. Yeah. It's appalling, you know, like, it's sad. Very sad. I'm devastated. I hurt deeply for this family. So deeply.

Yeah. I agree. I think we all do. Any thoughts on, any further thoughts on Michael? Do you think he's, do you think there's still a possibility that he might be alive? Many can only pray and hope. And I do that every day. Okay.

Any further thoughts? Any questions for me or? I just want to say, I just want to say thank you very much. And thank you, too. like you guys are amazing people and I know what you guys are doing and just trying to let me get my story out there and to try to find peace for that family and I want the same thing yeah I hate I hate seeing the hurt I can't even imagine what that family is going through and if I could give them the world I could I would if I could give them my life I would

well thank you for taking the time to join us you know it's really important to us and our our channel to hear from as many people and voices as we can get on here in different perspectives. And so we're grateful that you could join us and tell your story and let us learn a little bit about yourself and to hear your side of it. Absolutely. And if you guys want to do this again tomorrow, you know what I mean? I mean, I'm willing to do some more talking with you guys, you know?

Yeah. Well, tomorrow is, tomorrow typically is our normal. Our normal show. But let's think about things and let it sink in and we'll just go from there. But how's your phone holding up? I think we're near our 30-minute limit here. Yeah, I mean, it's dying. Okay.

Dying. All right. Well, thanks for joining us. And I think we're going to end. in time here before your phone dies. Thank you guys. Have a good night and take care and we'll be in touch. Thank you, John.

What's your name again? Sorry. Yeah, John. Oh, okay. I do got you right. Yeah, you got it. Yeah, that's right. My name's not on the screen. You want me to message your wife? Yeah, that works. That works. Thank you guys.

All right, yep. Take care. You all. Take care. You too. God bless you. All right. We'll see you later. All right. Bye. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day.

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