Hidden True Crime - DAUGHTERS OF THE CULT—An Interview with Anna and Celia LeBaron, daughters of murderous cult leader Ervil LeBaron

Episode Date: February 7, 2024

Anna and Celia LeBaron are subjects of the new Hulu Documentary by ABC News Studios “Daughters of the Cult” and Anna is author of the book: “The Polygamist's Daughter” Ervil LeBaron, their father, was charged with ordering the murders of many of his opponents, including family members. Ervil used the religious doctrine of "Blood Atonement" to justify the murders. Anna and Celia escaped the cult and tell their harrowing family story in this groundbreaking documentary. HIDDEN: A TRUE CRIME PODCAST is: CRIMINAL PSYCHOLOGY REINVENTED. Join us on a journey into the darkest recesses of the human mind and the unconscious motivations that drive human behaviors in order to understand the world and ourselves. JOHN MATTHIAS is a licensed clinical and forensic psychologist with 30 years’ experience in both clinical and forensic work. He serves as an expert witness for the federal government and has consulted on numerous high-profile cases for District Attorney’s offices and defense attorneys in several states. In the forensic area, Dr. Matthias has developed expertise in personality assessments, hidden behavioral motivations, complex trauma and criminal psychology. In the clinical realm, he has worked with numerous victims. He received his Master’s degree in Marriage, Family and Child counseling, as well his doctorate degree, from the University of Southern California. Dr. Matthias graduated with honors in philosophy from Princeton University, and he won the prestigious McCosh Thesis prize while there. In high school he graduated valedictorian from a large public high school in Chicago where he was chosen to participate in a ground-breaking valedictory study that continues to this day. Dr. Matthias has been an adjunct assistant professor in the University of Nevada Las Vegas clinical psychology doctoral program since 2007. He supervises UNLV doctoral students on forensic assessments, clinical case formulation, and various therapeutic approaches to clinical work. LAUREN MATTHIAS has worked as an anchor and reporter for ABC, NBC, and FOX News in East Idaho, Boise, Idaho and Salt Lake City, Utah. She spent a decade reporting on a diverse range of topics from high profile crimes to Presidential visits. Most recently, she reported for Salt Lake City’s ABC affiliate News4Utah. In 2015 she received the Idaho State Broadcaster’s Association Best Reporter award. She left the reporting world to produce the Hidden True Crime Podcast along with her husband Dr. John Matthias, a forensic psychologist. Your support helps us produce these podcasts/videos. We have some big plans to explore the true crime terrain in a way that no one else has attempted. HIDDEN: A TRUE CRIME PODCAST is: CRIMINAL PSYCHOLOGY REINVENTED. Join us on a journey into the darkest recesses of the human mind and the unconscious motivations that drive human behaviors in order to understand the world and ourselves. WEBSITE: https://hiddentruecrime.com/ SUPPORT: https://www.patreon.com/hiddentruecrime https://paypal.me/hiddentruecrime Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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along the way. Hello, hidden jams. Are we live? Are we live? Hello, everyone. we are with two very special guests today tonight. Thank you everyone for joining us tonight. Sisters with us, Celia and Anna LeBaron, they have a story. In fact, some of you might recognize Anna because she has shared her story with Hidden True Crime before. Not only has she shared it

before, she didn't realize this, I told her, but she was actually our very first YouTube live interview ever. And I think, Anna, have we come a long way now from that time? Yes. That first time was a little bit of a struggle. And look, here we are just smooth as butter. Right. Right. Yes. I think we've started like the first 20 minutes was technical difficulties. And here we are, full circle. So thank you, Anna, for being our first guest. And three years later, coming back and bringing your wonderful, dear sister, Celia, with us whose story is just as incredible. These two women, you might recognize them if you have watched a new documentary on Hulu. It's called Daughters of the Cult.

It's an ABC production. Is that right? ABC News Studio production on Hulu called Daughters of the Cult because these two women were raised in a cult. Not just any cult, but belied out a murderous cult. YouTube, don't demonetize me for that, but let's just say what it is. Your father ended up Ervil LeBaron. Many call him the Mormon Manson. He died in prison.

But, you know, one thing we want to share, for those that want, you know, Anna, Why don't you, Celio, Celio, why don't you hold up Anna's book? Ana has written an incredible book detailing her account called the polygamous daughter. Is that, is that the name of it? Yes. The polygamous daughter. The polygamous daughter. I want to get the name right.

It's an incredible account. And then these two incredible women joined together to share their heroin, brave, incredible story on this Hulu documentary that we recommend everyone watching Daughters of the Colt. we will briefly go over their story. So you guys understand it was a polygamist, FLDS, LDS fundamentalist cult. And Anna,

do you want to maybe explain it? Do you have the cliff notes of kind of just sharing how you explain it to people when you're like, okay, boom, boom, boom. The clip notes version is the FLDS is Warren Jeff's group. And so we want to be very clear that what we had, what we were part of was a fundamentalist Mormon cult. And what we describe as fundamentalist Mormon is those who practice polygamy specifically,

and also other original teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, as taught in their very prolific writings like the Book of Mormon, the teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, the Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price, and the Journal of Discourses. So those were the original teachings, and people that follow the original teachings are how I described fundamentalist Mormons, not to be confused with the mainstream LDS Church, the modern day Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Thank you for that clarification. You just keep doing that this whole live correcting me. I need that. Or clarifying. Thank you. I mean, this is very complicated and complex on 100 levels. And so we watch things that. happened or we see articles online that are just egregious errors all over the place. And we've

corrected some and helped correct some. Rolling Stone was one of them that we got to correct. Well, don't call them out. No. Oh, you're right. I shouldn't. Okay. It's okay. We've selected some. Let's let's edit that out. We're just worried now about correcting Wikipedia. So can we say that? There you go. Yes. Yeah, you can say that. It's okay. And you know what? A lot of work. A good journalism, Ella, isn't afraid of being corrected because they want the fact. So don't worry too much. Thank you, Lauren, for that. Because I was a little bit worried. Do not worry about that. Do not worry about that. So, you know, we do want to cover the basis of your story so that everyone's up to date.

We won't go into detail. Like I said, that's where you can read on his book. And you can can watch the documentary, which we recommend. John and I binge watched it five episodes, five episodes docu-series. But, but you, I'll say what I think a summary is, and then you guys can add or, or clarify. But these two women, Celia, you're the younger sister of Anna. Older. Older. You're older. See, I already. I'm like, I'm like one sentence in, and I've got it wrong. Maybe you too. All right. But, uh, but, uh, So they're same parents. You guys are full sisters,

although full siblings, same mom and same dad, although you have, how many siblings do you both have? We argued about this on the documentary. So I say we have 55 siblings, if you count both my moms and my dad's. But when I talk about my father's biological children, he had 51 children. Okay, okay. But some of them half, but you two were... Some of them half, and then we had also

step siblings involved. So depending on how you're counting, if you include all the step siblings that we love, you go up to like in the 65-66 range. Yeah, as you say in the documentary, you know, polygamous math is hard. Polygamous math is hard. That's what you said in the documentary. I love that line. And Ervil, LeBaron, your... father was the leader of this cult. He considered himself a prophet. Is that the word to use? Absolutely. And absolutely. And in the end, he ordered the murders of many, including, you know, many of your family members. And even after his death, many of those murders continue to be carried out years after his death. Or the four o'clock murders are what those.

were called. And it affected all of you, both of you so much. So I think that's like, Anna, you escaped when you were 13, but then still suffered the remnants of this cult. You're, you know, you were being raised by people who ended up then being murdered. I think, is there anything else you feel like I need to add John or Anna or Celia to this sort of basic, a foundation before we begin? Celia, how old were you when you got out?

I was 19 when I finally ran away. Okay. More devout, stayed longer. You were a missionary. Yes, I was very, very devout believer. Yes, I was totally brainwashed. Anna was the rebellious one. Yes.

I always say she had a little more spit and vinegar in her. And thank goodness, I did. I'm so proud of her. Like, I really am a little embarrassed. It took me so long. Okay. And John, what do you feel? I think so when we talk about, and so one thing we didn't mention is that, right,

the documentary said something like 51 to 55 kids, depending on which person you ask, right? But there were, and then there were roughly like 13 to 14 wives that Erbil had, right? Is that depending on who you ask again? Wikipedia says 13. but we know there was another one, but she didn't last very long. She was just months. I think that she was with our dad and then she ran away. So maybe she shouldn't have to count.

I don't know. So I think an interesting way into this for me is, and Lauren, by the way, so just I'll point out that she oversimplified that history tremendously because Joel was the first prophet, right? Like when Joel and Ervil were clashing and we were watching this documentary, you know, and I knew part of this story from our interview with you, Anna, you know, a couple of years ago, but I didn't know all of it. And when they were clashing and then you guys started talking about how Ervo was sort of charismatic and he wanted control,

I turned to Lauren and I said, uh-oh, this is not going to go well, right? Like, I knew Joel was going to be in the crosshairs right away. And indeed, he was. So a big part of the story is that the siblings clashed over who should be the true prophet, right, of the church of the firstborn of fullness of times. And Erbil didn't want to share, apparently, didn't want to share the throne. so he then had Joel murdered. And so that's really, you know, you've got this sibling clash

that kind of begins this story. And then you talked about the 14 wives or the 13 wives and the 51 children. And then there was a quote. And I think this might be, for me, this is maybe the most interesting way into this story. There was a quote, the quote that just floored me.

And I don't, I think it was you that said it, Anna, but the quote is, referring to the wives and the children, all became pawns to kill. In other words, all the wives and children became pawns to kill.

Yeah, we were doing. That's an incredible, with all these wives and children, that's an incredible statement. I mean, can you, so can you guys kind of help us explain what that means and how that worked? Celia, go ahead, because you experienced more of it than I did.

Okay, yes. So from a very, very young age, we were taught, you know, that, you know, we read the Old Testament a lot. We read a lot out of the Journal of Discourses where blood atonements and the death penalty for breaking the 10 commandments was a thing. So I remember from the time I was six or seven, learning about Abraham and him being taken, taking Isaac up onto his mountain, to the mountain to sacrifice him to God.

This was his innocent child that God ordered him to, to murder. And being taught in Sunday school that we had to be ready to obey God, no matter what he tells us to do, including killing someone. And, I mean, this was taught by a sweet little lady who, she was one of my dad's wives. She ended up actually killing for him later. But when we were being taught this, I realize now it was in the backdrop of my dad was actually had already or around the time that he had committed his first, ordered his first murder. And that was his brother Joel that he ordered the hit upon. So they were trying to justify that in teaching these children.

And I remember learning how to shoot from a very young age, how to shoot a gun. And our brothers were taught to shoot. and the women were taught to shoot. And, you know, we had such a scattered life and such a scattered group that, you know, depending on where you were, you may have got more instruction that way and more teaching. But, I mean, I don't think Anna remembers really being drilled or taught to be like a soldier type person. But I absolutely know we were being prepared and grouped for. Well, I do know that at some point we went out in the back.

backyard into a field and shot BB guns and, you know, that kind of thing when we were young kids. Right. So guns were something that we were familiar with. And, I mean, Hiram tells the story of getting shot almost going blind because of neglect and the adult supervision that was not happening. He got shot in the eye with a BB gun. So, I mean, but it just goes on from there.

Those weren't the only things that happened. those were minor because those were my experiences and I don't want to speak for my other siblings. Oh, I was taken out in the woods and we shot shotguns. I remember shooting clay pigeons out in the field and it was it was very much drilled into us. We were taught horrific things about the early, about the early Mormon days. Like we were taught that the Mountain Meadows massacre was like a great thing of people, you know, people serving God and doing what God said. So everything just was real twisted. Like they really shaped our minds in very twisted ways to see evil, absolute evil as being good and glorious and for God. So it was, it was a very deep programming.

Okay. Right. Thank you for explaining that. And so it appears to me that when when Joel and Ervil had this falling out, that's when Ervil started what he called the Church of the Lamb of God. And that segment, and so you had, apparently you had Erbilites versus Joelites, right? That's what they, that was what they called him. But just know that it was Dan and Ervil. Like most of the pamphlets that my dad wrote had Dan Jordan and Ervil. It was Dan and Ervil that went and established the Church of the Lamb of God. It was not my dad acting alone.

And unfortunately, that's not how history has really played it out. I mean, but that is more accurate. In the history of it, Ervil's name is always brought up. So it's been historically Ervil, but we've wanted to correct the record and say that it was Dan and Erval. And that happened in the documentary. we were able to do that. Establish that correction. Yeah, and actually that's where I was going to go with that thought

is that when the Church of the Lamb of God began, which was after the split between Joel and Ervil, the term that was used to describe the church was it was a type of militia, right? And that militia, it appeared to me, was largely the result of Dan Jordan, that Dan really kind of was responsible for training the soldiers, if that's the right term, or the children and the wives, as you just said, Celia, to learn how to shoot and, right, to make killing a part of the vocabulary.

Well, certainly, wasn't his father teaching his children anything. Yeah, we didn't have much to do with our father, really. We hardly saw him. But I was, that's too young for me. I know that later it was Dan Jordan for me. As a teenager, it was certainly Dan Jordan that was taking us out and teaching a shooting. But back then I was too young. I was only seven or eight at the time. So I really can't speak to that accurately. There are some people that I've heard of that said they knew Ervo in his younger days and that he wasn't a violent man. We know for a fact from personal experience that Dan Jordan was a very violent man. So some people say, and I do not know this for a fact, but some people claim that it was Dan's influence upon Erval.

It was certainly the combination of the two that made the Church of the Lamb of God very deadly. Okay, right. That makes sense. But again, it's important. You guys mentioned that it's important to acknowledge the fact that Dan Jordan was a big part of that. He wasn't just someone in the background. Correct. He was the one who actually carried out the first murder against Uncle Joel.

And he was the one that taught me more about, you know, he's the one that glorified. the Mountain Meadows massacres and the people that used to kill for Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, the Danites or whatever. Danites. I mean, Danites. Sorry, yeah, the Danites. So he was the one definitely that programmed me more than my father ever did. But it was when I was a little bit older.

But I would say I can't speak for our older siblings or are much older people that were part of those early days. But they for sure had influenced by both Erbil and Dan. Whereas we younger kids, I was three years old when Joel was murdered. And so my experience, you know, is just on the run from the law from then on out. And so I didn't have contact with my dad. But in the years prior to that, my guess is that our older siblings and older people from the cult would have had, you know, some more influence with Erbil and Dan both. Okay. Right. So I guess if we're telling the story somewhat chronologically, and again, I mean, I refer people to the documentary Daughters of the cult for the full story. It took five hours to tell it there. We're not going to tell it here. I was going to say to Lauren, when she said the cliff notes, I said, I'm not sure there's cliff notes that can summarize this succinctly or there's probably no elevator pitch here that's going to kick out.

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So it begins with Joel. And so you just mentioned that Dan Jordan was responsible for that. So Joel is murdered. And then where would you go from there? There's the Los Melinos massacre. That seems like the next thing. Like what? In telling the story, where would you take?

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Gooding for school, contours and industry. It is Happiness at Work from AI products. So after our father had his brother, Joel, murdered, he expected the whole Church of the Firstborn of the fullness of times to flock to him and accept him as the leader. And that unfortunately is not what, fortunately, actually, but that is not what happened.

Instead, it fell to his other brother, Elma, no, Berlin. Berlin, sorry, yes, Berlin, who became the next leader of the Church of the Firstborn. And so my father then was on the attack to take him out too and searched and made many, many attempts on his life and to try to find him. Like that's what happened with the Los Molinos raid

is they were trying, they thought that Verlin was, in Los Molinos at the time, which he wasn't. So they carried out a terrible horrific raid on the people in Los Molinos and killed two men and wounded many others and didn't find him. So in an attempt later, should we go on? I mean, he had several attempts where he tried to find his brother, Verlin unsuccessfully. Right, including, and again, I'm oversimplifying here dramatically.

Please go to the documentary daughters of the cult, but including trying to draw him out at the funeral of Rulon Allred, who... Of Rulingal Red, yes. He was another, I would call him rival, polygamous leader. But using the word rivaled is not an accurate assessment because Rulen Allred was not, did not consider Erbil a rival. It was Erbil who only considered Rul

on arrival. Right. Got you. Ruland, by all accounts, was a peaceful, more benevolent leader over a very, very large group of polygamists. Much like Joel. Much like Joel was.

Right. And so our father called him to repentance and demanded that, you know, he acknowledged Ervil as being the one true profit on earth and asked, you know, demanded that he paid tithing to Erval. And when Rulun, refused to do that.

That's when my father put a hit on him as well. And not only was he trying to put a hit on him for not, you know, repenting of behaving like a false prophet according to Erbil, but he also was hoping that when the, when the funeral happened, that they would be able to then take out Berlin, who they were sure would come to the funeral.

Right, and he, and fortunately he didn't. I think he wasn't. Aborted the men that were sent to carry that out, saw the police protections surrounding the mourners and said, we can't do this. It was a suicide mission to try to go in there. There was such a large crowd of people and just so many authorities there to protect, you know, the. And rightly so. Right. Thank goodness.

And I think that, you know, one of the things that I don't want to get overshadowed by the gruesome stories that we are telling is that there were a lot of victims. Oh, yeah. Yeah. We cannot just overshadow that with this gruesome stuff. And in fact, it was our father caused generational trauma. Like he putting that hit on Rulin Allred, I'm, I get. choked up thinking about it. Like he had a lot of wives, he had a lot of children. And they all then were left without their father who provided for them. He was a like a naturopathic doctor.

And he provided for all these women and these children. And they were left now without that support. So whenever I come across any of any, you know, family of, um, of Rulin or any other victims, I like to give an apology, and this isn't the right place to do it, and it's not even me that's guilty of anything, but I really feel for them, and I recognize that they really suffered. And it was because of our father. And Dan Jordan. And you can see that in the documentary. They talk to several of the children of Ruan, and they're quite emotional and quite impacted by it, even to this day. Yeah.

I don't think they. When we were planning the documentary and working with Sarah Mast at the beginning, we said, please invite any of them that want to come and speak, any of the victims of any of the crimes that happened. So that their stories, if there was any amount of healing that could come from them, having their perspective as part of this overarching story,

we wanted them to be part of it. And we didn't say, oh, this person or that person, no. We just said, you invite any one of them. We even invited Dan Jordan's own children to be a part, and they declined. But we also could give his perspective because he didn't treat them as badly as he treated us. Right. And so we wanted this to be as a broad perspective as possible, including the voice of the victims.

Right. Which you did, I think you did that, just so you know in the documentary. Yes. And here too. Thank you. Yeah. And so, you know, again, I'm overlooking a lot of details. Like we can't tell the story in depth tonight, but just to summer.

So when it gets to this point, and you mentioned the funeral, when it gets to the point of Ruland's funeral, one thing that really struck me was, just the immense level of fear surrounding everything. And I was trying to imagine you guys in particular, or siblings in this environment where you have this fear. I would imagine you, I mean, you guys can help me understand it, but there's this fear pervading everything. Could you talk a little bit about what that was like?

Well, I was in utero when my mother and the Joel and Ervolite, Joel and Erval, you know, chasm began. And so I'm imagining all the fear and adrenaline just from that schism happening and all the drama among all the adults. And then that's when I was born. And then, you know, I'm three when Joel is killed. we lived life on the run with in fear and I we weren't aware of what was happening because we were little some of the adults were of course but as children and during that we weren't aware of it but we just knew that the fear was palpable the anxiety was palpable um the adults did not have enough presence of mind to care for our basic needs because they were so worried about what was

happening among the adults. Yeah. I mean, did you, with that kind of fear, did you, did you feel like you were maybe not when you were younger, but at some point did you feel like you were sort of looking over your shoulder? As older, we did, but not younger. We were just taught that we were being persecuted because we were God's chosen people. I'll be honest, most of my fear was about outsiders and especially police and authorities. That's where I didn't know the fear was actually coming from within. We were taught to fear the outside and cling to those on the inside. I mean, they would sit us down and have us practice saying if there's a policeman that, you know, comes,

because we were rated multiple times in my life. If the police come and they ask you any questions, your answer to everything is, I don't know, even if they ask you your name, are you hungry? I don't know, what's your name? I don't know. Where's your dad?

I don't know. Who is your dad? Everything is, I don't know. You're not allowed to know anything. We were taught. Which is the definition of a cult, right, to fear outsiders. We were talking. taught to refer to our dad as Theo, which means uncle in Spanish.

All the other wives were our aunts and all the other children were our cousins. So we were taught how to remain undetected by outsiders. And, you know, just when we were out and about, we were not allowed to play outside because they would have 20, you know, kids and three women in a 1400 square foot house. And you couldn't have, you couldn't rent a house and say you have a mother and father and two children. and then have 20 children piled inside. And so we weren't allowed to play outside because that would cause the, quote,

nosy neighbors to, you know, get suspicious and turn us in or call the authorities or anything like that. So it was just fear piled upon fear from us being afraid of the law and the authorities and the FBI. And then I'm imagining, and I've heard and read, you know, Ruth Warner's book, The Sound of Gravel, she was Joel's daughter who was a nursing infant in the cab of the truck outside of the house where Joel was murdered. So I've heard her stories and they were raised in abject fear of the herbalites.

So so much fear and rightly so. So so much fear all the way around. Yeah. I mean that comes across very clearly, I think, in the documentary. It was, at times it almost felt to me like it was like living in a war zone of sorts. Yes. I mean, constant moving, constant instability. The rug was pulled out from under us so many times.

You just had to get, that was our normal. Our normal was always moving. And sometimes with almost no notice and no explanation. It was just like, get in the car, we're leaving. Yeah. One of the descriptions that one psychologist who was interviewed, our siblings that were part of the K-O-G, used the term child soldiers.

Yeah. Right. And I don't think that's overstating it. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I agree. It was pretty extreme.

Very, very extreme. And the amount of suffering that we endured is incalculable. You know, the little ACEs test. that you can take adverse childhood experiences. I scored a nine out of 10. Okay. And there are siblings of ours that are 10 out of 10. Well, one of them is drugs and alcohol.

Oh, yeah, that's the only one that we tend to miss. Because we were so religious and legalistic and, you know. In some ways. Experiencing religious oppression and trauma, we didn't have that one. Right. The one you're able to avoid. The one you're able to avoid. drugs and alcohol.

I made a list and I sent it to you, Lauren, of the incredible, egregious, harmful things that have happened to us. And can I just go down this list and just so that people have an idea of what we experienced growing up? Now, I didn't experience every single one of these, but collectively as Erbil's children, we did. Just childhood developmental trauma, severe psychological abuse, religious trauma or spiritual abuse, egregious educational neglect, medical dental, you know, I didn't get glasses until I was in sixth grade, ophthalmology neglect, child slave labor, financial abuse, starvation, food insecurity, severe isolation from societal, influences, severe familial isolation, meaning our little family was isolated from everybody else in

our family. Severe familiar isolation. I just read that one. Severe brainwashing. We were groomed to accept and become polygamists and then be groomed to become, I call it hit children, because hit men and hit women does not work. These were children. These were minors, not men and women. We were these things. So hit children because, again, child soldiers is not too strong of a word. Orphan soldiers. Jennifer LeBaron, thank you. Yeah, Jennifer LeBaron is saying children's soldiers, child soldiers is exactly what it is or orphaned soldiers. Thank you, Jenny. This is our sister, by the way. Okay. Yeah, thanks for that comment. I assume some relation. Yeah.

So when you talk about all of that, I think one thing that really stood out from this documentary was your relationship, you know, the relationship between you two and the sisters, but also the relationships between all the siblings and how close you guys were. You know, and it seemed to me that just leaning on each other seems to be such an important component of this story. And, you know, you could see it on the screen, but it wasn't something that was really talked about. So, you know, I think of a story like Hansel and Gretel. You know, they're fairy tales, right? This goes back to like, this is fundamental to like the human experience

that they're captured by the witch and they save each other because they're so close and they figure out a way to get out, right? And so literature is filled with these types of stories, but you guys lived it. And it seemed to me that those relationships and especially between you two, I don't know if this is too strong of a term,

but it seemed like to some degree that that saved you guys. And it certainly was a huge piece of our mental health, I would say. Yeah. So could you talk about that a little more? Just to... Well, I'm just going to say that I was two and a half when Anna was born.

And I always loved my little baby siblings. And I don't remember when she was born, so I'm too young. But I remember when she was, oh, I think she was probably six and I was eight. I told her because we were playing in our little garage bedroom that we had. And I remember telling her that she was my best friend and that we were going to be best friends forever. And I don't think remembers that. But I vividly remember that. And it was true.

And we are still very, I mean, even though we're so different in so many ways, we just are each other sounding. board for almost everything. And we didn't always even get to be together. Right. We were, you know, sometimes shipped off to different places to live in different homes to help different families when we were pretty young. Even Anna was nine and I was 12 when we were taken to Mexico and we didn't see each other very much. But I remember when we did get together, it was just such a balm to my soul. Yeah. And, and we weren't allowed to cry about. anybody leaving and we were always like separated. But I just remember when I would get to be with her.

How just how, how just that was good for my heart. And as we as we got older, you know, Anna ran away when she was just 13 and I didn't get to see her for three years. And we had to reconnect. And, and I would say when the cult,

you know, when I finally ran away and we got back together again, then we became pretty inseparable. even when we were far apart in other countries. Because we just, that's, you know, when everything fell apart, we had each other. And it was through mail and it was through phone calls. But that was a real important part of our healing and our coping mechanism, I would say. Don't you want to?

Yeah. I mean, we went after we finally got back together. Like you were saying, we were just moved around like ponds on a chess board. Literally just here, go there, go there. Young children being taken away from their mothers, sent to go work in a warehouse somewhere here and there. My dad had factions of his cult spread throughout the Southwest United States, and all of them were appliance businesses,

used appliance businesses, and they needed slave labor to make those work. So, you know, boys taken out of school. School in the early days, like first, second and third grade, was free babysitting, but then as soon as you were old enough to get put to work, you were yanked out, especially the boys, and put to work 12-hour days in a warehouse, not heated in the wintertime and not cooled in the summertime. So the amount of separation that happened over and over again,

like you would go to sleep at night and there would be certain individuals in the home. and because everybody was wanted, the adults, I mean, people came and left in the middle of the night. So when you woke up, you didn't know who was going to be in the house or who had arrived in the middle of the night and who had left in the middle of the night. And you just had to accept it. You weren't allowed to complain. You weren't allowed to ask. You could not ask who was where.

Where did they go? You just accepted it and whatever was the fact in the morning when you woke up, you ate your mush and went off to work. Right, right. And so when we finally got back together, sorry, I just realized what your question was. When we finally got back together, it's like we cherished one another. We treasured the bond that we had. And then after the four o'clock murders, literally the whole family scattered all over.

And everybody was too afraid of anybody to have connections. And Celia was, I think, one of my only sibling connections after those events happened. And those events weren't even something we talked about very much because it was too difficult to talk about it. And so it wasn't until 1995 that I began seeking, you know, I found a professional counselor to talk to. And so 1995 was how many years, seven years after the four o'clock murders, when I finally talked to a professional counselor for the very first time and told a stranger our story front to back in an hour. And, you know, like the first time talking to a stranger. So I said in the front cover of my book, I don't know, Celia, you might want to read the dedication.

Like, I'll let you read that because to me, it encapsulates how I felt about my siblings. To my brothers and sisters, all the sons and daughters of Erbil the Baron, I'll never get tired of rehashing our stories. It's the best therapy. The stories yet to be lived and told will be the best of all.

That's beautiful. And now we do get together. That's what we're living out today. Not just, my mom's kids, we do have stuff that we do with them annually, and it's a beautiful thing, and it was represented in the documentary. But I reconnected with the K-O-G family members, my siblings that were part of the K-O-G. Kingdom of God. Yeah, after it completely dissolved in 1991 or the early 90s, it was in 2001,

so about 10 years after that, that I reconnected with the KOG siblings. And I did that with fear and trembling. Not because I didn't think, not because I thought something would happen, but I thought, I mean, that it did cross my mind that something could happen. But they had been spending their time and being raised by and influenced by Rina, who was Mark's sister, who I knew was a safe person. And so in my mind, I could reconnect with them and and begin how. having relationships with them. And so with our family situation, with all of the gruesome,

horrifying stories that we've all lived, when we would get together at first, all we talked about was the past. And it was hard, hard conversations. So not be able to talk about it without trembling. Yeah. Even when I would talk to like a good friend over dinner at a restaurant,

I would have to sit there holding myself just tight, but under the table, cooling everything in as tight as I can, and I would be shaking and I'm trying to stop shaking, and I do not understand what's happening. I don't know that that's a trauma response and the adrenaline rush from reliving it in the moment. And I would just shake and tremble and my jaws would get all locked up, and I could barely talk. telling a safe person my story for the first time. But then with my siblings, we would get together and talk about it. But then there would be fun things that happened too after we all reconnected and the whole thing was over with. Our games and the cat, horrible cat puzzle. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day.

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Protect yourself now atora.com slash remove. Like the whole thing has been over for 30 years, and you cannot. put a finer point on that and they failed to do that in the documentary. Oh, we so wanted that to be part of it to for people to know that it's been over for 30 years, 30 plus years. But I reconnected with them and our first conversations were all very difficult, very hard, hard conversations, because I lived my life in fear of them starting from, you know, at 1988. I mean, maybe a little earlier than that. But afterwards, we would get together again and then again and then again. And then pretty soon we're playing spades and, you know, my youngest daughter is knocking over my

brother's beer and, you know, he's making a big deal about it just playfully with her. And so my kids and I are talking about that, you know, looking forward to the next time we get to go visit. and the next time it happens again. And so now my daughter has that story as part of her core memories and good core memories and good things that we're creating for not just the children of Erbil Barron, but the grandchildren who are now a big part of our lives, of course. And being able to have all of this good stuff happening in the world. the midst of also having very difficult conversations with one another about the things that happened.

And I didn't understand most of it when I reconnected with them. And it's been a very long, how many years now, 23 years of loving and caring about my siblings. And getting to learn what they actually went through, which is way worse than anything we experienced, even though what we experienced was horrible. Right. I mean, I tell people, I'm so glad that I was the child of Ervil LeBaron that wrote her book first because once any of my other siblings start writing theirs, people are going to read mine and go, what did you have to complain about? And that's not to minimize my suffering at all. I know that's a psychological thing that people do to cope. I'm not minimizing my suffering at all.

I will talk about it all day long to anybody who will listen how much I have suffered. But I'm just saying most of them suffered more. Just a quick clarification here. When you say that it's been over for over 30 years, how are you defining over? Do you see the cult ending with the 4 o'clock murders? No, no. When the KOG disbands? Let me tell you how it ended.

Okay. Two of my brothers that were part of the KOG, both doing different things. And again, I wasn't part of that. So I might get some of the details wrong. Okay. And so I've heard these stories. So I'm retelling them from that perspective. Jenny can correct me if I'm wrong.

But two of our brothers who were part of the KOG, part of the, they were children. Right. I mean, they have, they're, are those teenage children? Teenage children who were now the grand patriarchs at 17 years old, okay? Traumatized, brutalized children, developmentally stunted children being put in charge, okay? So two of them get enough distance from the things that had happened to think clearly about what's happening. And one of them specifically said, we're not doing this anymore. This has to end here.

And so I'm telling Aaron's story, basically. He's also serving time in prison right now because of the things that happened. But he told everybody, we're going to not study these books anymore. We're going to get a GED. Oh, I don't think he said it, though. I think he was trying to do it very carefully so that he wouldn't get executed. He didn't want to be blood atone. So he was in charge.

So instead of teaching every Sunday teaching scripture and religion, he got GED books and started having everybody study the GED books. And from my understanding, from what I've heard, he started going to other churches because he wasn't believing any of this anymore. And he didn't know what the truth was. So he was investigating different churches. But again, not teaching any more scripture, not teaching any more religion on Sundays, he was trying to get him their educations.

Just to clarify the, I don't think we made clear the origins of the KOG. So the kingdom of God, KOG begins roughly around 1981. After our father died. Right. So your father dies in prison. It was around the time. It was before our father died. because I

it's in it's in the our father references it so in his writings so it was before he was what happened was he totally lost his mind when he went to prison and was convicted

he went off the deep end he was always mentally ill I'm certain but in prison it really took its toll and he began just all these writings and all these quote unquote revelations and all these orders that he was given out, giving out.

And because his writings were so incoherent and didn't make sense and were so violent and just, just horrific, none of his adult followers really, really wanted to follow them. They're like, okay, so they had to accept that he was mentally ill and could not be followed anymore. The only people he could get to actually do his bidding anymore were his teenage, his young children that were super brainwashed and they had this certain group of them that didn't have proper adult supervision over them. And so these these doctrines and these revelations, not doctrines really, but these revelations and these orders were given to them. And they were the only ones that would listen to him or even thought that they could be true. Everybody else was

like distancing themselves from Erbil, which was putting them all on hit list. Erbil was like, oh, you won't obey me. You won't come and shoot me out of this prison. You won't, you know, do exactly what I say. Then you're on the hit list. And a wife wanted to divorce him and she's on the hit list. Like everybody was put on the hit list that would not follow him exactly. So these young teenagers who had been brainwashed and brutalized their whole lives,

they were the ones that took these revelations and said, okay, well, this is what we have to do. And that was those writings and those rantings that he had were called the Book of the New Covenant. And that's what it later became called. And it was those K-O-G siblings that felt like they're the ones that had to carry it out. They felt forced to do it. Okay. So I have something from Jennifer that I'm going to read that she sent me before, and I just forgot that I had it until just now.

Jennifer LeBaron. Yes, about our brother, Aaron, who's currently in prison. And it's a little bit long, but I'm just going to read it verbatim because I want to say it correctly. Because I tell people, and I don't want to speak for my siblings, especially the ones in the KOG, but I will speak up for them. Okay. So Aaron was severely abused as a child and forced to be its child soldier. He was very close to his mother, who was murdered by the cold. when he was 13. At 15, Aaron was put under the blood covenant of secrecy and forced to be the

keeper of the doctrine. At 19, he was forced to be the leader of the cult against his desires for himself. He never wanted to be the leader. By the age of 23, however, while living in Mexico in 1991, he began to secretly question the doctrine of the cult and went to many different churches looking for answers. He also began secretly seeing a therapist. He then stopped teaching the younger siblings from religious books and ordered GED books from the U.S. instead that he encouraged us to study. He strongly urged us to pursue education. He stepped down from any authority and power over his siblings and encouraged us to go live our own lives however we wanted to and told us to keep all the money we had worked for for ourselves and earned.

Now she's coming. Hold on. Okay. He also encouraged us to register with the government to start paying taxes and he showed us how to do it. He did all of this to officially end the cult and the violence and to set everyone free. He set the example for us by moving on with his own life and for a time he worked as an English teacher to business executives. And she's, Anna, do you want to read what Jennifer's saying right there? Right here. Aaron dismantled the KOG in 1992, set us all free. This is one of the stories that is never told.

And one reason why it's not told is because it's not my story to tell. But I'm telling it now with permission. Right, but it's a story that has an enormous, impact on the Liberian family culture. Yeah. So yeah, that's an important story to tell. I believe it's an important story to tell. And I feel the weight of being the one to say it.

Because while also saying these things, I know that bringing this back up and bringing it back into the forefront in the media, once again, is very, very difficult for many, many of my siblings. Very painful. So while I want to talk about these things that happened and discuss the gruesome things that happened because it's real and it did happen, also keeping in mind that as we're talking about these things, there are people out there who were victims of these crimes that happened. So what people don't understand is the actual perpetrators were victims themselves

because it was forced upon them, it was brainwashed into them. We did not choose our parents. And we really did not win prizes for the parents that we were given. Like we got the worst of the worst in so many ways. And still, despite all of that, when Ervil's children were mentally capable, had developed their brains, you know, to where they had some freedom of thought, they all turned against it and all of his teachings. Every single one of them did. There's not one single child of Erbil Barron who believes he was a prophet. And it's been over 30 years now since 1992.

I'm shaking again. Yeah, well, thank you for sharing that, first of all. I'm humbled that you're willing to share that with us. And I think it's enormously important and for understanding your family. So thank you. And I feel like I want to give you a minute here. Are you okay? I think she's seeing a comment from Krista right here.

and I want to read it out loud first. She says that's an important point. The perpetrators were victims as well, which is something we talk a lot about here on hidden true crime. Yeah, I'm saying we. I never was sent to kill anyone, but the children of Erbil were just his puppets. His children followers were just doing his bidding

out of pure fear and brainwashing. It was never in their hearts to commit any of these horrible crimes. And they were wrong. and the people, the perpetrators that are guilty are in the grave. That was Erbil in Dan Jordan. And I think Rina, so, and again, our listeners might have to go to the documentary to know who Rina is, but Rina Chenoweth, who is believed to be the trigger person who killed Rulon Al-Rad. She was the trigger person for Rul-A-L-Rul-R-R-R-R-R-R-N.

She wasn't convicted of that. But one of the elements of that crime that, again, getting back to when I first threw out this idea that all the wives and children became pawns to kill, one of the reasons apparently Erville sent Rina and Ramona to commit that crime was because, as one of the police officers said, quote, we didn't expect women and children to murder. And Rina was groomed from the age of 12. And her parents. She was forced in the marriage at 16 to herbal that she did not want, you know, against her will, you know. And just like we talked about in the documentary, people did these things against their will because it was either kill or be killed in most cases. I mean, you had to obey. If you went against our father, you risked your own blood atonement. And that was very real fear. And anybody that whispered even a single doubt. could be blood atoned. Oh, like if you were trying to pack your bags or you were trying to ease out the door, you run the, you would,

Dean Best is a good example of that. He was ready to get out and he ended up, what a tone. I want to point this out. Go ahead. No, go ahead. You go ahead. I was going to say Anna,

as Anna escaped at 13. I was just going to point out what you were saying, Celia, is you. Go ahead. wouldn't say Anna was afraid of being blood-atoned. I didn't know it was happening. She was not threatened to be blooded. She was just a child who didn't know anything about anything. It was the grown-ups who left, who knew about happenings in the cult, who had, who could

go tell and testify against people. Those were the ones that were, yes, but thank you for helping me clarify that. Anna, even when I left, I wasn't afraid of any blood atonement for myself. I was not a threat because I didn't know anything. I didn't find out about any of the murders until I was 17, 18, something like that. But even then you didn't have any firsthand knowledge of anything. You weren't part of any planning or part of any. I read a book that I found in Lillian's things called The Prophet of Blood.

So she wouldn't have had anything to testify or anything. There are many actually newbies here asking what exactly the definition of blood atone means. Can you define that again? So the early teachings of Brigham Young mostly, but also other prophets of the original LDS Church, there was a doctrine called blood atonement. And what that means is there are some sins

that the blood of Christ can't cover, so you have to atone for that sin with the shedding of your own blood. So basically, it's a backwards way, of helping someone because if they commit the unpardonable sin and they're going to spend all eternity in outer darkness, the only way to rescue them from that is to kill them so that they have at least a chance of going to the what, telestial level, Celia, help me out here. Just getting into, you know, not suffering outer darkness, yeah.

For the rest of their eternal life. So it's a backwards way of helping someone. that's how twisted the teachings were and that's how our brains were twisted and scrambled from the time we were very, very young to where it was like it's something beneficial to this person. Thank you for. Right, and we'll touch on this later maybe if we have time, but when you say that, it reminds me completely of the daybell case. Yeah.

We'll get to that, everyone. More that later, yeah. Oh, my gosh. Your listeners are daybell experts, and I'm sure that they're making connections, but we can explore that in a bit. Yes, they are. Yeah, we will explore that in a bit, exactly. I mean, I became a daybell expert because of you guys.

Well, you lived a version of it. A one mighty and strong. It's like, it's a big problem in the Mormon teaching. Yes, it is. So thinking of blood atonement, then would it be fair to say that Rina? I mean, I know you guys aren't Rina, but do you feel like she probably had that fear, I would imagine? 100%. Definitely.

Definitely. She was worried that if she wouldn't do it, she might get ex-axed herself. So there was no choice. If you're sent to do it, you really have to do it. And what have you guys talked to her about? I'm curious what her thoughts or responses are. to the documentary. Oh, Celia, I'll let you take that one.

She was, so let me just say we watched the first, the second, the third episode, and we're like, oh, good, good, good. They're getting the story right. They're saying it the way we want it. And when they got to the fourth episode where they did talk about the K-O-G and they didn't really, you know, they didn't have 18 episodes. They had five. So, you know, we have to give them some, you know, room for that.

But when they left it, you know, with the not clarifying that we were reconfirming. that we were reconnected with those the KODUs and they were safe people and they were good people that had just been traumatized and abused and were also victims severely victims even though yes some of them were perpetrators um they were victimized too to put them in the position to be perpetrators um and anyway i i think i lost my train of thought rena oh yes so after we um After we watched all the episodes, Anna and I together, she actually flew here and we sat on the couch literally trembling watching them. Like, what did we do? What have we done? But we were a little bit, you know, disappointed with the third episode, the way it ended with the KOG.

Okay. Let's be honest. Let's be honest. We said a lot of swears. Yeah, we did. We like honest to hear. And then we spoke to Rina after she watched all the episodes as well. And it was like the following day.

Yeah. Yes. Okay. And she said, you guys, you did a really good thing. This is the best Erbil's children have ever been depicted by the media. So this is going to make a difference. It wasn't exactly perfect, but we knew that going into it. We weren't, you know, we weren't the editors.

So we had to just say our truth and then hope that it got edited. And then the other piece of this is that we did not have anyone from the KOG who was willing to participate in the documentary for good reason. Right. That opens up a whole thing for them and their siblings and trauma and pain that they do not want to relive. And so even though we invited them, of course they said no. And so that was that if we would have had one of those voices, maybe they could have

changed the arc of the five. Or maybe they would have given more time for that episode. Yeah. Jennifer said right there at the bottom on a. Once Aaron and the cult ended the cult, Rina helped all us kids go to school and supported us going to college. She helped our transition into our new lives. She was one of our heroes and we love her.

So Rina really, she, she was very kind to us. She just poured love on us. and said what you did was a good thing here, even though we were like, oh, no, it wasn't all perfect. It just made us feel a lot better. And we had some good talks to Rina. And she even said to us, you know, how sorry she is for any part that she took, any part she played in the Rulunal Red death.

Like she feels for the family, and she understands. that it caused a lot of generational trauma. I mean, we know that there are people who see her from a different perspective and a different lens because of the harm that was caused to their family, their loved ones, their friends. But the lens that we see her through is who she became after she was able to think for herself.

And that person is a person that if you met her today and you didn't know anything about her history, and you knew what she had been about for the last 30 years. You would love her. You would love her. She has volunteered monthly at an organization that helps people who are going through severe difficulties. Since 2007, one weekend a month, she has volunteered with this organization to help people that like them. Overcome trauma.

Overcome all these kinds of things. since 2007. She has devoted her life. Sorry. She has devoted her life to helping people. And she was very instrumental in and getting the ones from the K-O-G who were left behind after all the adults were arrested and put in prison.

Like there was key. These are, like she's on the top of the, the hit list. Like there's always talk of this hit list. It's not really a list. And she's like, well, I need to go, I need to go help these, these kids. I need to get herbal children out of this horrible situation and or he had grandchildren too by then.

Yeah. And everybody else is like, well, we don't want anything. They're scary. And we're not even on the hit list. She is. And she's still like, she wrote her book. And I had a conversation with her before she wrote her book. She actually gave me credit in her book for helping her with some details, which I don't

think I was that helpful. But anyway, I'm in her book. and for for for for that but um we had a long conversation and she wanted to write her book so because she's she wasn't a wealthy woman and she wanted to get funds to help bring those kids out of mexico and help them get their lives going in the u.s. to basically rescue them out of these horrible this horrible situation impoverous situation that they were left in and we're all like well we don't want any to be part of that we don't want to have anything to do with them. And again, she's like on the top of the hit list. And she's still like, no, I'm going to help

them. Anyway, she didn't end up making any money on the book because of a suit. The Allred family. Anyway, they sued her for any money she made on the book, which I understand that. I can't blame them for that. No, absolutely not. But she ended up helping them anyway. Like, she still got them out of there. She had a property out kind of a rural property. She put trailers on it. and brought some of those kids back. And those kids ended up, some of them, she helped more than others, but a lot of them ended up, you know, being able to get their papers in order,

get their names straightened out, get their identities set up as Americans. And because they had none of that. And then some of them have very good degrees now because of all that help that she gave. And there's some. some misconceptions about Rina that are on the internet that, you know, she's a wealthy woman and this, not any other. She is, what, almost 70, did she say?

65. 65. Oh, sorry. Sorry if she listened. She's lived the past 25 years in a double wide trailer, very modest life. I have a seven-year-old car and works every day a manual labor job. So the internet is leading us. You read on the internet is not true.

Now. Goodness. So this property that she had that she, you know, was from this rural area where she put the trailers on in her own. Celia, I don't think we need to go into that. Okay. Honestly. So let me just, let me just mention here then my thought about that one thing you're really helping us with here is pointing out some of the untold stories that did not make it into the documentary, obviously, because they probably didn't have time.

But this idea that I really appreciate that you're putting forth is that people that have committed heinous crimes are capable of tremendous transformations. Yes. Yes. Thank you. Yes. That's exactly what we're trying to say.

As soon as they get unbrainwashed and their brains get fully developed and they have a moment, have a time away to think for themselves, then they realize the truth. and they're like, they were sincere in following. And now they're sincere in following what is actually good and right. When I ran away from the cold, I was 19 years old. I fully still believed everything. I ran away because there was terrible abuses happening that I couldn't bear anymore.

And I wasn't faithful enough. You know, I couldn't. So I just couldn't take it anymore. But when I left, it took me probably a couple of years after running away. that I finally was able to think enough and process enough to say, oh my gosh, that was all really, really bad, wasn't it? Like, I don't think I used the word cult even then. I don't know.

It's hard. But I, it's a long, arduous process to get unbrainwashed. So those boys, my brothers, who were so unbrainwashed so quickly, I mean, they're just way more intelligent than me. But they were able to see it so much more. clearly and with so much conviction that they actually, you know, made a huge transformation in their lives. I just am in all. Like, I don't know how they did it because of my own personal experience, how much it took for me to actually see the real truth. You know, one of the things

that I think about is, you know, the harder you have to push a spring down and hold it there, the farther it's going to go once it, you know, once it's unloaded, you know. And, you know, Some of our siblings have far surpassed anything that I could have imagined. One of our brothers has a PhD in electrical engineering that was part of the K-O-G. Another one has a master's degree. A PhD? No, PhD? He's a doctor.

Sorry, you're talking about a different brother. Yes, yes. I know what you're talking about now. When he gets male, it's doctor. Okay. I've seen it. And we have a sister that graduated from Cornell. Yes, yes, and who's now getting a master's at the University of Texas.

And another sister, I won't say her name, but I'll let her talk if she wants to, who has a bachelor's degree and also taught at the University of Texas, and she taught conflict resolution. Like, I want to just brag on my siblings because 30 years ago, things completely, completely disbanded, they got unbrained and completely changed their lives and turned them around. And for 30 years, they've been making us proud. I'm so proud of my family today.

We've decided that Erville doesn't get the last word on what it means to be a Labaron. Right. Right. Yeah. That's so important. Should we tell them my little tidbit? Let's tell him your news. You see right here where it says Celia LeBaron, well, I hid behind my, I've been divorced since 2009, but I have hid behind, Anna, Anna accused me anyway, of hiding behind my ex-husband's last name for all these years because I didn't want to be known as a LeBaron.

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solidarity with my siblings. So here's the thing. What happened? Because she's not telling the story right. Oh, okay. He sat and watched that documentary, feared trembling, but you had already made the appointment with an attorney to meet the next morning and legally change her name back to LaBaron. Yes.

And Anna was with me. Because she flew here from where she lives. She flew here to watch the documentary with me. So I got to stand with her in the courtroom while she changed her name back to LaBaron. And I'm just proud of you, Celia, for everything that you have overcome, the secrecy of the way that you did not want anybody saying a whisper of anything. On social media, I remember I was so strict about it. Don't you say anything about polygamy or, you know, our dad or anything.

or I'm just going to have to unfriend you because I can't have people know in my community that that's where I'm from. And so she did that for many, many years. And now she, and she credits me for like putting, because I asked her if I could use her real name in my book. Because if you read my book and you watch the documentary, some of the names aren't going to line up. Because when my book was published in 2017, I wanted to be very sensitive to my siblings. and not use their real name if that wasn't something they wanted. And many of them didn't. So I changed a lot of names.

So she came to me very hesitantly and was like, you can just think about it. You don't have to tell me right away. I just want you to consider if I can, you know, you're a big part of my book. I'd really like to use your real name. If you're okay with it, just let me know. And I was like immediately like 100%, you can use my real name.

I did say don't use my last name that I was using at the time, like my ex-husband's last name. I said, don't use my last name, but use my first name. That was just dipping my toe in the water to that possibility of people knowing. And she just carried me along and just I dipped my toe. And then she started taking me to book clubs. And we started talking about, you know, the history and I got used to talking about it more and more. So yes. And Anna was the one that reconnected us all with the, not all of us, but those of us that were open to it, to the KOG. She's really been a really healing part of our story, of our family story. I feel like in a lot of ways I've been a bridge builder and a peacemaker. Absolutely. Yeah, you know, as long as we're talking about this, one of the questions raised near the very end of the documentary series,

series was exactly the question you guys are talking about, and that is, what does it mean to be a liberate? Right. And that was never really, you guys really didn't answer that question. So, I mean, you're talking about it now, but what, do you feel like there's still some stigma associated with that? Or do you feel like you guys? The stigma isn't coming from us and our actions for the last.

years. The stigma is the media who sensationalize and demonize Ervil LeBaron's children. Like, I'm, when they broad stroke that and include all of Erbil's children, I'm a bloodthirsty killer, according to the media. And that was one of the things that we wanted to dispel with this documentary that I don't think happened as much as I wanted it to be like a nail in the coffin of that narrative. narrative that we're bloodthirsty killers. We're not. That was not in us from birth. Like the first words out of my mouth after the title sequence comes out, we were born good. And I believe that with my whole heart and we are now good still. It goodness was in us all along, all along. You're born innocent.

Our brains were just twisted and scrambled with all that fake religion. We were oppressed. We were, you know, kept apart from reality. We just had our own alternate reality that we lived. But once we were able to have the chance to get out of that, by and far, Erbil's children have done good. Jennifer says, Anna has been an incredible bridge builder in our family, and it's been so amazing to be so close to her again.

these past 20 plus years. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Anna, Anna does get a lot of credit for that, I would say. And just even us doing this documentary, it's because of her book. So she is really paving the way for us to have a different narrative about our family and who LeBerons really are. And they're not just bloodthirsty killers. They were brainwashed children. And resilience is a really a really good way to describe herbal children. They have overcome unbelievable odds to try to make good lives again for themselves. When everything gets stacked up

and then you pile on the brainwashing, you know, once the brainwashing was over and undone, you know, we were all left with a lot of things that we had to overcome. Like the deck was stacked against us trying to have any kind of normalcy after 1992. The deck was stacked against us. But the brainwashing was over.

And that meant that the violence was over, done. And you cannot put a finer point on it. There's been none of that since 1992. And for the media to go on and on and on and on and on about it. and like really demonizing those pit, like especially the ones that were part of the KOG, demonizing them. And they can't get out from under that. And every time something happens and a LeBaron is in the news,

whether it has anything to do with the cult or not, all of that gets dragged back up and rehashed in ways that are not productive, that are not reconciliatory, that are not good that cause more fear in the hearts of people. And if we don't accomplish anything else with this interview right here, I want the fear to be dispelled. That anyone who has ever lived afraid of Ervil's children, they do not have to be afraid any more and have not had a need to be afraid since 1992. But they may not have known that. But they know it throughout.

Is this a good time to talk about the book of the new covenant and how people keep saying, oh, but someone could pick that book back up and start carrying out, you know, more of these blood atonement's that Erbil ordered. I wonder if now is the right time to talk about what that book really entail. and how likely that is to ever happen. But before we do that, we just need to say it's not a book. It's not. It's not a book that's been published.

The compilation of a bunch of weird revelation. Let's stop right now. A lot of people haven't seen the documentary and a lot of people don't know your story. So let's actually maybe explain what the book of the covenant is before we continue. Because what you'll say won't even make sense. Yeah. Do you want to or shall I? You go ahead, see you.

Okay. So when our father, you know, went off the deep end after he was finally convicted and he, I guess, felt like, you know, a God abandoned him. I don't know. He lost control of everything. He lost, yes, he lost mental control completely. He had a psychotic brain. He lost control of the people that were outside of the prison. Well, yes.

So he began this prolific. writing of revelation upon revelation upon revelation to the firstborners to Ronald Reagan to each one of his children to his wives to each follower like he went on this just a streak of writing and it was not coherent it didn't make a lot of sense there were there were things in his in each revelation somebody took it and compiled it into a book of sorts and And it got the name of the book of the new covenant. Some people are thinking, oh, this is like some kind, you know, they're imagining that it's some kind of coherent scripture or something. It isn't.

When you read the book of the new covenant, it is literally the rantings of a desperate madman who knows he's lost control and is trying desperately to gain control back by making promises to the warden and promises. to the inmates and to the president of the United States. Yeah. So, yeah. But also we'd say rantings of a madman because that is just a way to say things. But it's really somebody who's just very mentally ill. He was very, very, he was in desperation trying to get a hold of things again. Now, he was never diagnosed with anything, so we can't diagnose him.

But, you know, when you read them, people who are trained in the, these things understand what they're looking at more than somebody like you and me reading this going, oh my gosh, this is just so weird. And, you know, Hiram trying to read it on the documentary was like, I just can't read this anymore. Just me even trying to read it today to get some excerpts from it that we could use for this podcast was horrifying. Like I, it's not, it's something you don't, nobody's going to ever pick that up and say, yes, this looks like doctrine. Something we should follow and adhere to.

And like, it doesn't even make sense for the most part. Right. Yeah. And then, but then you have his earlier writings where, even though it was horrible doctrine that he's writing that.

And we just call it bullshit doctrine. Thank you. Let's do that. Okay. So he was coherent. He's writing these pamphlets in the early 1970s, you know, 60s, 70s, writing pamphlets about the way he believes and stuff. He called, he said the 10 commandments was the civil law of God on earth.

So anyway, and the first commandment is about, you know, serving God. So it's like, it's not civil at all, but that's what he called it. So when you compare his earlier writings from 1972 or so with the writings from when he was in prison and convicted. The difference is incredibly obvious that he was not in his right mind when he wrote those things. Yeah. So on that note, you guys sent some of his writing. So just to be clear, none of these are published.

Is that accurate? No, it's not on the Internet. There's no place people can go and find it. The original ones are. The ones... Really? So the The original ones from 1972, not the ones from

Not the ones from prison Okay That's what I'm talking about Thank you. Okay, let's be very clear because That's what I said, the original ones Okay I thought you meant like the original of this No

The original one from 1972 We're in agreement We're in a game. Let's be super clear Yes, the other ones are not It's just copies See, right in this moment, it's clear that you guys are siblings. I appreciate that.

So I appreciate the reality of you being, you know, you're not perfect siblings and I love it. So thank you. Hardly. We love yourself. We do love each other. You're the first ones we're right. We are imperfect. With my whole heart, Cynthia.

Yeah. So go ahead, John. So before I read this, and you know, you mentioned diagnoses just briefly, I'm not going to approach that, but I'm sure some of our viewers are curious what my thoughts are on Erville's mental health. As are we. I am curious what our thoughts are about that. I'm not going to, I can't diagnose. I've never met him. Obviously, it wouldn't be ethical. Never will.

When I was watching the documentary, I just wrote down a few, I scribbled a few notes in the margin and I put some of these words. And, you know, I guess our viewers can make of these words what they want. But, you know, I did see a lot of paranoia. And of course, that's not a diagnosis. But there was a great deal of paranoia. I think there was kind of a manic quality, you know, a manic quality might be associated with something like bipolar, but I, you know, I don't know. It clearly like his excessive writing and he had this, he seemed to have this abundance of

energy and, right. And so I just wrote down that it seemed like there was kind of a manic quality that might be associated with bipolar. You know, at times his grasp on reality seemed a little tenuous. So I wrote down psychosis with a question mark. Like there might have been some times where he tended to exhibit some psychotic features, but I don't know for sure. He did seem, at least in his writings, he did seem to have a certain element of obsessive, compulsive qualities that he was,

you know, that he was, and again, maybe that was more of a manic issue, but he definitely seemed to be somewhat obsessive, compulsive about some of his work and his writings, and he would stay up all night. but again that might overlap with some of the mania. And then, you know, obviously probably the biggest one is that he, and I don't know, I'm sure this is the most obvious,

but there was so much grandiosity and so much narcissism in terms of right, being a prophet, being the president of the United States, that, you know, so I think the grandiosity in particular was just off the charts. But that's not, again, that's not a diagnosis. Those are just some thoughts. Do you guys see some of those qualities? Right.

Will you tell us? Because I don't know if that's been made clear. Like you're an actual, you're a decreed psychologist, right? Can you tell us more about that? Licensed, yeah, licensed forensic psychologist. Okay. So.

And can you explain what you do for a living so that people understand more of why, especially why we wanted to have this conversation with you specifically? So I've done a lot of clinical work over the course of my career, but in the last decade or so, I've done more forensic work, which means going into jails and prisons and assessing felons and inmates for sentencing, for risk, for the community, for mental health issues, right? My job, generally speaking, is to evaluate prisoners, inmates, felons for different, for very, various placements in the community or sentencing or, you know, just a number of different things. So it's your expertise. So this is your expertise. You are an expert.

Yeah, right. He is a criminal psychologist. He assesses criminals. Thank you. Right. So Irville, somebody like Irville would be, you know, definitely, trying to understand somebody like Irville would be hopefully in my wheelhouse. He's pretty extreme, but I'm presently involved on a couple of murder cases, and every murder case is extreme.

So there's going to be similarities among many criminals. Yeah. So thank you for that. Because the fact that that's your expertise is the reason why we wanted to have this conversation specifically with. you and Lauren. Thank you. Well, we appreciate it. I mean, I've watched your work and I've watched what you've done for years now. And I've always appreciated how you didn't just come off and talk about even Chad Daybill. You know, you read the books and you inferred things and, you know, how you treated that with such compassion, even though we're, we want justice for

Tiley and JJ and Tammy Daybill and the others that, you know. So even those two things, the fact that you were able to have those conversations with us, the viewers, and give us perspectives that we wouldn't have normally thought about, about the motives and the way that he got to the place where he did the things that he did. And that has been something that I have appreciated about you. all these years and why I trusted you guys to have this conversation with. Well, thank you. Honor reached out. Yeah. And then I reached out. This is still Anna's number. Yeah.

Yes. I'm flattered and I'm very grateful that you guys decided to join us tonight. So I'm not sure that anybody else could have helped us. talk about all these things in this reparative way that hopefully will bring good for our family and for the victims and for everyone that has been affected by the life of Irva LaBaron and Dan Jordan. And that's the only reason we do this. This is the only reason we want to come on here and do this and take all this time and use all this emotional energy is to try to say.

set the record straight and to try to help our family and to help people understand what what happened to cause herbal's children to do the things that they did and it was never because they wanted to yeah and you mentioned you mentioned having compassion for chad daba which which is true actually you know it's interesting because Lauren and I were talking earlier and I said you know, if we really want to understand Erbil in his story, we really probably have to go back to some of his upbringing and his four brothers and his father. I mean, we can go into that a little bit.

I think that having a brief overview of some of those things would be helpful in this case. In the early 1900s, the Mormon Church decided that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints disavowed polygamy in 1890. and some of those who were continuing to practice left the United States and went to Mexico. And our grandfather was one of them. And so Ervil was conceived on the trip to Mexico and was the first of those children born there. And so in the early times of that time, he was a polygamist.

And then when the LDS church disavowed it again in 19, whatever it was. was like they didn't they didn't really disavow it they just publicly disavowed it but they actually sometimes sent people to go continue the practice in Mexico and in Canada and that was our family so when the when the church decided that it was for sure over now there were people who in the colonies down in Mexico who said okay we're not going to do this anymore but our grandfather was one who said he was going to continue. And there was a lot of ostracization. How do you say that?

They were ostracized. They were ostracized and bullied because they were still practicing polygamy. And so his earliest days, one, isolated down in a colony compound, down in Mexico, bullied because his father is not going to renounce the doctrine of polygamy. And then, you know, growing up in that. And then eventually Ervil and Joel went and served a mission. for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And because he was teaching polygamy,

which was the original teachings, they were removed from their mission abruptly and again excommunicated from the LDS Church, which they were trying to, you know, and this is like in the 1950s, so I don't know what year it was. And there's one thing I want to clarify, too, the early teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints actually forbid the changing of that doctrine.

So they knew it couldn't change. To be the true church, they had to continue teaching polygamy. It's very baked into the religion. And so all of that was his upbringing. And all of this extreme, extreme, like bullying, Well, and they had a lot of poverty, too. There was poverty for sure. He suffered too.

It wasn't his mental health, I'm sure. And then eventually the grandfather goes and starts his own colony, the Liberian colony, where I was born. And, you know, and so there's now even more isolation, even more of that doctrine and teaching. And, you know, we have to be the ones and we're the persecuted ones. And, you know, that persecution complex. You know, all of that.

was a part of his upbringing. So I think that's enough of you a better idea of where some of these things originated from. Right, yeah, thanks for sharing that. I think that's an important part of the story. And when you say grandfather, you're talking about Alma, I assume, right? That was his, that was Erville's father. Okay, yeah. Yes.

Do you know anything about his relationship with Erval? was his dad Yeah Alma was he I don't really know much I know that he was very close with his brother Joel I think they were best friends growing up

they were very close in age Joel Joel wanted to go serve a mission But he wouldn't go without Ervil And Ervil was a minor So he was one of the youngest ever Of the LDS church to go and serve a mission Because they approved him to go with Joel

Well that So that gives us a broad overview of Erville's upbringing, and I think that's very helpful. So thanks for sharing that. So should we get into some of the... As far as they know, is this going to be the first time that somebody has read this much of his writing publicly? I think so.

Well, I mean, they showed... They showed little snippets of it in the documentary. In the documentary. Very little. Sentences only. We want this to be a little bit more extensive, so that we want to ease people's minds so that they understand that this is nothing to be afraid of. I mean.

So, yeah. So I'm going to read from, so the first one apparently was published. It's called The Law of Liberty. It was published in 1972. So this would have been roughly eight or nine years before the prison writings. Yes. This was before Joel was killed even. Okay, so this is the beginning of like the third paragraph or the stuff you sent me.

And so, quote, no man has a natural right to citizenship in a free nation. And hence a right to enjoy the fruits of liberty who is not willing to obtain a basic knowledge of the laws and principles of liberty, of the functions of legitimate government, and of the basic civil duties that are essential to make true liberty. a reality, unquote. So the reason I chose this sentence is because it's coherent, right? It's a complex sentence. I mean, it's taken out of context, so you kind of have to read some of the other stuff. I mean, it's not, it's certainly not, if you're making an argument about liberty and

freedom and all that stuff, it's, it's not exactly the most philosophically, you know, sound argument, but that's not why I'm reading it to show that his sentence structure is complex, right? This is, it's coherent. It makes sense. He doesn't define liberty well,

but, you know, that's It was a bullshit religion he was teaching, so yeah. But he did make some, he could put together coherent information. Right. So that's 1972, right? I mean, that's not, so,

So for those of our viewers out there who know a little bit about philosophy, that is not John Stuart Mill, the British philosopher who wrote about liberty. But it is a well-written sentence. It's complex. It shows a certain level of complexity and intelligence and coherence. And that's 1972. This is 1981. This is when Erbil is in prison doing what you guys do.

described as rantings. You know, the interesting thing about what I'm going to read here is, I mean, the listeners, our viewers can make their own assessment, but they'll notice immediately the tone is so different. But, you know, the interesting thing about this passage I'm going to read is there's a certain poetic quality here that's lacking in some of his earlier writing. And I don't think that's intentional. I think it's just because he's just kind of spewere.

viewing everything on the page, right? But, but I mean, there are moments in this writing. It's a little out there, but there are moments that are interesting. Let's see which part he chose to read. All right. So here we go. I'm going to read two paragraphs here. So again, for those just joining, these are, this is Ervil LeBerran's writings.

Maybe some of the most that's ever been read online. We won't be publishing these because who wants to publish Ervil Liberian's writings anymore. We don't, but we are going to assess them here tonight. When I talked to you about this, I asked you to please destroy what I sent to you once we're finished with this. Yes, these will not be published anywhere. Thank you. Exactly. I think the, so on that issue, I don't think that these paragraphs are anything that someone could take up and create a new religion with. I think they're more about an insight.

into Ervil LeBerran than anything else. So that was my purpose. So bear with me for a moment. This is two paragraphs, and I think I need to read both to get this. So, quote, for this is the end of times of the Gentiles, the end of the power and of the glory of the apostates in my fallen and corrupted kingdom. For this is the end of the world when all things will melt before me with awesome and fervent heat, even the heat of my marvelous spirit, which is being poured out onto the earth,

and through my most humble and obedient and awesome and wonderful servant, my great and most wonderful patriarch and obedient prophet and seer and revelator. That's the first paragraph. Second paragraph continues. For now, I am going to reveal all the great and wonderful mysteries of my great and glorious kingdom to all mankind. Through my service, Irville M. Lebaran, even my most humble and dedicated and graceful and wholly purified and sanctified and glorified and holy dignified and most graciously and fully and wonderfully blessed, even to the fullest extent of his great and extensive capacity at this beautiful and most excellent time schedule. Did you guys get that? I mean, he was pretty desperate at that time. At that time.

and he was trying to keep a hold of his own insecurities, I think. I mean, I know it's ridiculous, but it's still, you know, it's sad. He was so severely mentally ill. I mean, that's my take on it. I know I'm not a therapist or a psychologist, but... Well, the reason I chose this passage is because, I mean, he's, he's obviously the grandiosity of saying that, his servant, Erver Labarron, is going to, you know, give us the word of God, right? He's speaking as if he's God, essentially.

He did, yes. And, you know, that, I mean, most cold, even for even the most seasoned cold leader, they may claim their deities, they may claim their profit. Let's be honest. Buying cannabis shouldn't be complicated, sketchy, or low quality. That's why I want to tell you about mood.com. That's M-O-O-D.com. Mood ships federally legal cannabis straight to your door.

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And because you're a listener, you get 20% off your first order. Just head to mood.com. That's M-O-O-O-D.com to get started. But they don't talk quite like this. Right? It's a lot of redundancy, a lot of repetition. Repetition. And not really good sentence structure or anything.

Right. The sentence structure, it's pretty much a run. sentence of sorts, unlike the other passage I read, it lacks coherence. It's become so self-absorbed and grandiose that it almost makes no sense, right? So the tone is completely different. Yeah, clearly this is a very different presentation than the other passage. But, but I, you know, so it's easy to see. You guys talked about how that his children, were seeing that in prison, he was, the term we would use is decompensating. In other words, like his ego was starting to fall apart, that he was, he wasn't able to

maintain sort of an integrated self, an integrated sense of himself. And you said that you guys kind of recognize that. And so I think this gives a little bit of a flavor. We didn't. We were too little. Oh, yeah. But the adults in the organization, were like, no, this doesn't make sense.

And he was just throwing out blood atonements upon everybody. And he was going on and on and trying to take control of, you know, I mean, he was he was writing just revelation after revelation after revelation to just everybody. I think when I was looking through it, there were like three to me. And I'm just a child. Yeah. He just became very prolific. And again, just not coherent.

It wasn't doctrinal at all. So it wasn't like something anybody would pick up and say, this is doctrine, this is scripture. We're going to base a new church around this. That's really the main point for us wanting to send that to you as a, you know, a psychologist, as somebody who, you know, would, has dealt with criminal minds. This wasn't something anybody could go run with and make a religion out of. Right. And they won't, I don't think it would be a stretch to take this passions and do.

that by the way because the interesting thing to me is that his point of view here is the point of view of God he's talking about Erville in the third person and he's writing as if he's literally writing as he's as if he's God yeah he was calling them revelations he was speaking he was the mouthpiece for God so yes he is speaking as though God is the instrument of this information Right, whereas in 1972, you don't see any of that. It's clear that this is, Ervil is the narrator, but he's third person and he's developing this from his perspective. He's not acting as if God is telling him what to say.

So those are a couple of the differences. And thank you for sharing that, those passages. It was very interesting to read those. and as I said, we're quite honored that you guys trusted us enough to do that. I mean, this is really, really important. This is an important conversation. And I knew that both of you understanding these kinds of things the way you do could help us have this nuanced conversation

and help bring understanding and insight to people and not just the general public who we do want them to understand, you know, the things that happened, but mostly the people who may still be afraid, that there's just no reason to be afraid anymore. That's the, if we, that's the main thing that we want everyone to know. And I mean, I have had many people reach out to me when my, book first came out, people reached out to me that were afraid and said, do we still need to be afraid? And I'm like, no, you don't. And then when the documentary came out, I've had people contact me saying, I'm this person related to this person, and this is the first we're hearing that we don't have to be afraid of Erbil's children anymore.

And the way the documentary ended, you know, the lady that the director and executive producer Sarah Mast, she told us that, you know, there's things about it that we are going to interview other people and they're going to have a different perspective than you. And we understood that. But she goes, you have my word that I will give you the last word on this. And she did. And she did. The final words on the screen, you know, that all of Erbil's children have disavowed his doctrines and teachings. Yeah, yeah, that's so important.

The other element here is that Lauren and I talked about this a little bit earlier, but Lauren was saying, you know, what do you think are some of the main components that could have led to this? And I don't know if you want me to share those, but they might be important to share because I think what you've done throughout this program or this show tonight is you've kind of shown how none of those conditions apply anymore to your family. So I think the conditions that kind of led to this, the family culture and the conditions

that led to the cult, I think I would list those as it would start with a very rigid family system, a very rigid culture, meaning that every family has boundaries around what they allow in and outside of the family, right? And with your family, it was so rigid and so controlled that no information was able to get into or leave the family culture. That wasn't information that was given by Dan Jordan or Erville or, right? It was so controlled. You guys didn't have access to newspapers, media, television, nothing. that meant essentially that the message that was portrayed, and this is the second condition, that there was a very toxic message and a very one-dimensional message,

and it was repeated over and over. So you have this toxic and repetitive messaging without any information able to come in and out of your family culture. And that creates a situation where that's, you guys use the term. brainwashing, but that's where indoctrination comes into play. That you have within that rigid system,

if there's only one message about the one mighty and strong or about the kingdom of God to come, whatever it is, that it's going to become a part of your family at a fundamental level and it results in indoctrination. And in that environment,

what psychologists some times call a meshment, meaning that the family is so, because the culture is so rigid and closed, that all the members essentially believe the same things. They don't deviate. You guys said this in the documentary, that there were no challenges,

there were no questions, right? You guys just, if you didn't believe this, you were threatened. And so within this rigid family system with repetitive and toxic messaging, you get this extreme ameshment where you all believe the same thing, you're all on the same page, you all have the same identity,

and if you deviate it all, you're ostracized or maybe even killed. And then the final... You were communicated. Okay, communicated, right, like Joel. And then the final component would be this extreme fear, that if you live in an environment of, you know, the term you guys used in the documentary was constant fear.

It really drives that repetitive and toxic messaging. It drives it home because you're always on alert. You're always on edge. And it, you begin to, it really makes that message stick in a very primitive level. And so that creates a lot of compliance. It creates a lack of reflecting on your situation. To put it bluntly, it creates a situation where you can have child soldiers. Because there's absolutely no attempt to rebel or question or challenge authority in that type of environment.

So I think you have all those components. And then, you know, I think also you can throw in this idea that, you know, you guys talked a lot about in the documentary about how you kept thinking that you guys were. to quote, you guys, you were building the kingdom of God, right? You were the children of God. You were trying to create, in spite of all your suffering and pain and everything, all the trauma you were going through, you still had this hope of this utopia and this kingdom of God that you were all working towards.

And that kept you even more compliant. So I think I see those five conditions is really coming together and creating this environment that was, you know, well, let's say deadly, right? It was so traumatic and horrible and eventually led to all of the horrible things that happened. So, and I think the reason this is important to talk about is because I could go through every one of these and show based on what we've discussed tonight that none of these apply anymore to your family. Correct. That's right. Everybody has free thought. We run the spectrum on beliefs all the way from solid atheists to Christian to some that maybe even still

believe in polygamy very few but those that do allow their children to make their own decisions there's no there's no more force we have different political views religious views and everybody's free to think what they want to think right so just to go through these conditions and and talk about how they've changed, your family system is not closed anymore, it's open. There's no toxic, repetitive messaging about how people have to be or what they have to do. That's changed. So there's an open discussion of ideas. There's no longer extreme ameshment, meaning that everyone has to be the same person, essentially. You let people have their own identities, live their own lives, do their own things. There's no longer this extreme fear that you've created a family culture now of security.

and so you've really gotten rid of that fear, as you just said, Anna. And as far as like this idea of utopia, I mean, essentially, if you get rid of those other four conditions, your utopia is going to be based on whatever, you know, people want it to be. It's not going to be one, it's not going to be one thing. Right. We've been able to create the lives that we can be proud of. Yes. And so I think it's important to talk about those conditions that led to all these crimes

and to all this pain and trauma because those conditions do not apply to your family anymore. Correct. I think our work here is done. Yes, you nailed it right there. Yes, Jane is saying reclaim the name. Hashtag Labaran Strong. Yes. Thank you.

you. That is our message tonight. Where are the documentary people when we need them? I know. Yes. Yeah. There you go.

Ozzy Tad is saying, they have such a healthy sounding family now considering the beginning. It's amazing. Yeah. One of the things that I love to talk about and say is that we're just like every other family in America.

When we get together, we do not talk about politics or religion. So you still have Thanksgiving with each other. Yes. I mean, there's no way to get us all together. Like, that's a family. You have our sibling reunion, though.

We have our moms, some of our mom's core children. And then the other part that I think is just morbidly funny or grave humor. I don't know how to talk about it. But I remember the first time we went to a funeral where someone died of natural causes. And it was like, we're all looking at each other like, oh my gosh. What is happening here? How do we have a normal funeral? This was a normal thing that people do. And we've been to weddings now. Monogamous weddings. Hello? You know, and we get together at these events. And it's like no politics and religion. You know, one of our sisters graduated from nursing school. And it took her many, many years,

but she overcame literally had to learn to read to go to nursing school, like literally. So overcame every obstacle and finally graduated. And we all showed up to celebrate her accomplishment, which I'm still so proud of her. And at that thing, we're saying, no politics and religion, everyone. But we got together. And we do get to have these events that normal people, people get to have. And it's just...

It's been a long road. It's taken us a long time. Yeah. I can't get over that. You guys are... The LaBaird's come so far, you're celebrating funerals where it's natural causes and marriages where it's monogamous. That was a great summary.

That was a great... Yeah. The things we take for granted, I guess, is where I gathered from that. Yeah. You get the normal stuff now. Right. And we get to celebrate it. And I think we appreciate it more than most people.

Because, again, we were separated so much as children. Yeah. I'm emotional again. Safe space. It's okay. We're grateful for you. We're grateful for you. You know, we had a job. We had plans to delve into the comparisons with daybel.

We had plans to have you guys ask us questions. But we've already, we've been live now for over two hours. And perhaps maybe we just need episode two. Yeah. I am all for episode two where we talk about the whole daybill thing. There we go. Let's put it on the calendar. But only if your people want us to do that.

Well, let's ask him right now. Do you guys want Anna back to talk to table? I know Celia too, but Celia, you don't know as much about the Daybill case. I'm not an expert like Anna is on the Daybill. I'm not even an expert. I've just watched all the stuff you guys are put out. Well, then you're an expert because I'm going to say. I literally listen to the entire trial of Lori Vallow Daybell.

Well, you're an expert then. I listen to the podcast, but that's it. Okay. Yeah, I don't think Daibel's going to fit at this point. No. No, we had a different purpose. And it was, I think one thing, you know, is to the importance of, as they said, hashtag reclaim the name and to let people know that this was 30 years ago.

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for sharing. We are on the right track now. Yes. And I love that story of you taking back your Libera name too, Celia. Yeah, I thought, well, definitely, Anna, if you're interested, will. Well, we'll invite you both back, but if you want to talk about Daibo, we'll look forward to having you back to discuss it.

Well, I know that Celia will be able to talk about the doctrine of Erbilber and the way it relates and all that better than I would. So she is more of an expert on the back. I was a little more brainwashed. Yeah. So she would be welcome to be part of that discussion because I know that she'll get it better, writer. Right. More correct. I can't even words now. I'm so discombobulated.

Yeah. Two hours. Yeah. Oh, it seems like everybody's, yeah, so unanimous yes, as far as I can tell here. All right. Yeah. You're definitely invited back. So I, if it's okay with you guys, I want to wrap this up, but I'm going to go back. So again, like at the end of the documentary, that question was asked, and I kind of threw it out there a few guys earlier, but I want to give you guys a chance to answer it now. And the question was, again, what does it mean to be a librarian?

Would you guys mind taking a shot at that, each of you? Well, at the end of the documentary, I don't know who came up with these facts that there's over 7,000 Liberians in the Americas. So, yeah, I saw that. That's a lot of, that's a lot of, that's a lot of laberans. And a lot of hardworking people, a lot of people, I mean, I think labarons that are my family, hardworking, good work ethic has been instilled in us, smart, intelligent, good, kind, wanting to do good in the world and make the world a better place.

Overcomers. Overcomers, resilient, grit, determination, like, so much. And educated, I mean, everybody has their own story and some people had more resources than others as far as what they were able to accomplish with their life. But that goes for everybody. the world. You know, there's varying levels of support and resource. So, but on the, for the most part, you know, you run into Liberians and you see things online. I remember the year that there was a group of Liberans that not probably distant related to us that were singing beautifully.

Oh, really beautiful singers. Yeah. Beautifully singing. And it just went viral. And I kept over and over people saying, is this your, are you these relatives? Are these relatives? Are these relatives? And I just want to say that there's a beauty to being a LeBaron that we have been having, we've had to overcome a lot of odds. But the beauty that we're creating in the world today is absolutely goodness defined. And I will go with her definition. Okay. So I'm just going to reiterate that.

I love that line, Anna, about there's a beauty to being a LeBaron. Let's finish with that. I can't say it any better than that. So thank you for, thank you guys for joining us. Thank you for being so open and honest and transparent about everything and sharing so much and letting us have those writings. I could go on and on, but we really, really, really are grateful. I am.

I'm sure Lauren is too, but we're so grateful. and hopefully we can get you guys back. Thank you. I'll be happy to come back. This will be my third time, which. Yeah. Third time, right. I'm here for it.

I'm here for it. Anna's book is incredible. I recommend it to anyone if you want to know the full story, the basics of the story. There it is, a polygamous daughter. The Hulu documentary is on Hulu. And for those saying, know I wish I could watch. I don't have a Hulu account. I'll give you a tip. A month free membership.

Yes. And it's on Disney Plus now too. Oh, and it's on Disney Plus. Okay. Do you know. Because Hulu and Disney are partners. And the name of that documentary is Daughters of the Colt. Yes. Daughters of the Colt. And we're so grateful to have you both here. Thank you to those for your support tonight, your kind comments. Thank you for those that join our Patreon. dot com slash hidden true crime thank you for your likes uh let please like this you know we always say that to help like our videos for john and me it is true it is no secret that it helps the algorithm gods out there when you give this video a thumbs up but i think in this situation of

this case i also want to point out that the message that anna and celia wanted to share tonight is important to them and to claiming reclaiming their name and to sharing their story and so if you like it, you help them share this important, important story to them about their family and about their name and about what they've overcome. So thank you for liking or giving this video a thumbs up and thank you for your comments. I have about 30 pinned questions, or sorry, 30 starred questions that I was going to pull up, but clearly we've gone over time tonight. So we'll share that we'll leave that for next time too so we'll go into day bell and then we'll do a few questions if anybody else has any more questions leave them in the comments of this video and we will

see them all so thank you everybody all right good night thank you guys good night everyone thank you hello hidden gems it's loren with hidden a true crime podcast for exclusive content things dr john and i only dare say behind a paywall become a patreon member at patreon.com com slash hidden true crime. You'll find bonus episodes, early releases, and insider info. Thank you for your endless support. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers, spammers, even stalkers. It's why you get endless robocalls and why ads seem to

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