Hidden True Crime - Daybell Juror Reveals HAUNTING Truths She Can't Unsee

Episode Date: May 4, 2025

In this episode, juror #12 from the Lori Vallow Daybell trial talks with Lauren, discussing the disturbing evidence, emotional toll, and chilling moments from her time on the jury pool. I Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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because of you and your fellow jurors, Victoria. So first off, thank you for your civic duty. You're fulfilling that service. Thank you. You know, you and I have been talking a little bit behind the scenes, and I know this was not something you wanted. You have taken this very seriously. This was very emotional.

can you take us back to the very beginning actually being chosen for this jury? What did you know? And were you surprised to have been picked for this jury in Phoenix? Definitely. So first off, this is my first experience ever. I've never been summoned for a jury. for a jury. So I don't have anything to compare it to. You know, a lot of people have asked me, what was my experience like? And I'm like, well, first off, I have nothing to compare it to. This was my

one and only experience. And when I received the summons and the questionnaire, you know, they gave this huge list of names. I want to say there was like 30 names on it. And you had to answer, if any of the names were familiar to you. So I go down the list and I answered no. No name really popped out. Trina Kay, her last name's K. And I was like, wow, that's my maiden name, but I don't know who Trina K is.

I'm sure there's lots of us out there. But no, none of the names I recognized. And then I probably had three questionnaires emailed to me that as time went. And so I was like, well, I must be getting close because I keep getting more questionnaires. But then when I showed up for the selection, there was like hundreds of people there. And I was just like, this is a waste of time. are they going to call my name? I mean, you know, you're thinking, okay, 12 out of hundreds, what's the likelihood? And when they first called my name, I think I was number 30, 35 or 36.

Wow. And then they started asking questions and more and more people were leaving. So I moved from like 36 to 12. And then 12, the number 12 stuck with me, but there was even two people before me that was let go. So I was like the 10th seat. I was the first seat in the first row. And there's nine behind me. But yeah, I just kind of winged it and went through the experience, not knowing really the legal end of things. It was my first experience.

So some of it I just felt kind of dumb. What's going on? Right. But, yeah, it all came together. And you had never, had you heard of Lori Bowen? Valadeo and just didn't know who she was but you never even heard of her. No, I never heard of her

and I'm going to be very honest and transparent. I'm not good with names. I'm not one of those people that will go watch a movie and say, you know, go home and say so and so was in it and this was the actor or somebody throwing out

at me saying, did you watch this movie with so and so? I'm like, you have to give me more than a name. Right. But I still, as I learned stuff, nothing popped up that seemed familiar. So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So which is probably one of the reasons you became a juror because that was something they were definitely striving for. Little to no knowledge. And also I want to point out, like this was a nearly all-male jury. And here you were too. We were all looking at you kind of like, oh, she's really representing a kind of a, she's really important because of the makeup of this jury,

all of us sitting in the courtroom noticed you because how could we not, if that makes sense, knowing how many were male. And I wondered that too. I was like, how were we chosen and how, like, did they want all men? Like, are you discriminating against? Like, what is the deal?

Like, I was expecting six women, six men. That's what is typical. So it was really strange. I agree. That was really strange. And, you know, when it comes to choosing the jury, the defense has to say, the prosecution has to say, the judge has a say. And so I can only speculate that Lori did like.

having men on the jury but somehow or another you you slip past yeah yeah I I just kept telling myself it's how the cards fell right like yeah it's just a coincidence or whatever and let them fall have how they fall but I did also think both of the prosecution and the defense had to agree. They did. So, yeah. And it could simply be that fewer men knew about Lori Valo-Dabelle than women, right? It could be that their biggest focus was making sure nobody knew about this case.

And that just happened to be mostly men and Victoria. But it's a man that was murdered. So wouldn't the, you know what I mean? Like, I could relate on the. end of it as you know thinking about domestic violence thinking about she was extremely I'm a single mom um just going off of initially meeting her she was very likable she was charming I guess you could say okay like my first vibe was not well until she started talking was not this is cuckoo sure no yeah she comes off very put together at first right yeah and for an

inmate she looks well did you know she wasn't i guess you knew she was possibly an inmate but she's in her street clothes her hair is done her makeup's done she looks i have together did you think or well yeah so a funny thing so several times during the trial I kept having this dream that we went back in the next day and she had been beaten up. And so I shared that among the rest of us. And I was like, you guys don't make fun of me, but I keep having this recurring dream. I'm like, I don't know if she's in isolation. I don't know like what the bill is.

And somebody was like said she's probably just in custody. And I said, well, I don't know why I'm having this dream, but I feel like she was jumped in jail and they beat her up. That was really weird. And I just, it was funny, something to share for everybody to giggle at. But yeah, we didn't know if she was in custody, gel, what the deal was. Yeah, could you guys tell she was wearing a rack belt or a shock belt? Did you know that? No.

did you know that until her woman? I noticed she was wearing the same things, like rotating her shirts, but wearing the same. Yeah, you noticed that. Same suit, different day, right? Right. But so, yeah, and none of you could see that she was wearing this rack belt underneath. No. She wasn't cuffed and she didn't have shackles on.

So the judge ordered. She was not happy about that, by the way. The judge ordered. Yeah, that she wear this rack belt under her. her clothes, it's a shock belt. And she argued that very much. She was not happy. And the judge said, well, it's what we're going to do.

Right. So you can never tell. No, I can never tell. And she was very, she kept, she had eye contact with all of us. She would smile. She would giggle. She would. And then after a while, you're like, this just doesn't it serious to her.

Hmm. That's interesting. So your take on that was she's not taking this seriously. No, it was weird. Hmm. Sort of, sort of this, would you consider it nonchalant?

That was a word that came up a lot in the trial. Just the overall demeanor, the most emotion I saw from her was with her and Nancy Joe. And was it Serena, where she was being quite sassy and whatnot. That was the most emotional. Oh, her opening, she did cry. Well, I don't know she literally had tears,

but she appeared to get choked up when talking about Tiley. Okay. But never saw that again. So did that resonate with you then when Trina K in closing arguments pointed that out, she cried in closing or in opening statements but not when her husband died definitely and you know I'm a very emotional person and I tend to have lots of empathy and sympathy and when like I wasn't moved but I don't know if these are the right words but when she did appear to be upset I mean I just sat there and listened it didn't like go first.

through me as when I sat and watched Kay and she broke down crying, I was holding back tears. I was going to grab the Kleenex and I was talking myself through it. Don't show emotion. Don't start crying. But I was literally shook up. Okay. And I could feel her emotions where that didn't happen when Lori opened up with her little cry or I don't know what it was. A.k. tears, whatever, whatever it was. Her alleged emotions. So I don't know if I was picking up like or just viking that this isn't, she's not, this isn't real.

You were catching something. Like she's, you know, maybe I was picking up on something. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you didn't even know why yet. Right. And usually when I see a person upset, I'm going to have empathy. I'm going to like feel something. I didn't feel anything. That's interesting. And that's probably really interesting to look back on. Like you said, you were a clean slate then, just paying attention, listening to each side. Huh. Yeah. That's interesting. And so, so, so then you left me with so many questions with what you're sharing. And it's actually so interesting to hear your person.

perspective. But then beyond the opening statements, that alleged emotion that you saw, there wasn't much else except for with Serena and with- I mixed up Serena and Christina. Christina, she didn't even cross-examined, correct? Correct. I thought that was weird. Why not? Because she went hard on Serena. What I think is that sometimes court, these trials can be a bit of a game of cat and mouse. And if Christina didn't say anything that was too damning to Lori, she would recognize that and think, well, I'm not going to cross-examine because then something else could be said by her

that's then introduced into trial and Trina K might be able to then redirect and something worse could come out. So I think I can't get into Lori's mind, but I will say sometimes when a defendant or defense attorney doesn't cross-examine, it's because they're thinking nothing they said was too damning, so we're just going to keep going. But I agree with you. It was surprising she didn't.

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Christina's the one that brought up the drugging. Christina's the one that brought up the no repenting, that she knew all of the women from prior lives. Yeah. She brought up a lot. And I felt I was kind of relieved that Lori didn't cross-examine her because I can only speak for myself. But I felt like I felt bad for Serena. I thought that she was extremely nervous and did. not want to be up there.

Like, I would have felt really bad if Lori would have given her the same attitude that she gave to the others. Serena. Yeah. She wouldn't have been able to take it. I also want to point out, I was going to, let's bring this up now so that people understand context. You were raised LDS. And so you understood or understood that you didn't understand. take your pick you either understood what they were talking about or you understood that you had

no idea what they were talking about because of this background and understanding of the Church of Jesus Christ, Latterty Saints from your childhood. Is that correct? Yeah, and we were told that the LDS church would be mentioned a lot through this trial and one way or another would that's that going to impact us and I'm like, well, I was raised LDS but is it going to impact? me, absolutely not. I was raised in the church, but there's a huge gap between me and my three older sisters. So by the time I was probably 10, they were all married and out of the house. My parents bought a second home in Pinetop and we would commute every weekend back and forth. And when I didn't have school, we were at the cabin. So I wasn't an active member, but my whole family is LDS. I'm very familiar. And as an adult, I choose to go to a non-denominational Christian church.

My ex-husband is just to make sense of all of this. my ex-husband is black from the south and was raised in the Bible Belt. Okay. Me being raised in the Mormon church, it made sense because that was a happy medium. The non-denominational question in the church, yeah. A blended faith family, it made sense for both of you. Yeah. But do I have any judge?

I'm very open-minded. I love culture. I love people's different beliefs. I love, I always tell people it's not our place to judge. They will be judged later by someone much greater than us. So that's just how I live my life. Yeah, well said. But with people's different beliefs, I say that, meaning that

that makes the world go around. We all have our different beliefs. But I'm a strong believer. Those beliefs should be based on love. This stuff that was going on with Lori was not based on love. Regardless of my knowing of the LDS Church, this was not right. And that was me not. not knowing the other stuff. That is pure evil. But this is just me with the facts that I was seeing in this trial, the text messages I was reading, the behaviors, it was all like, this isn't right.

And I struggled with that because I'm so not judgmental. yeah, I'm put in a position where I have to judge. I have to say guilty or not guilty. And I really struggled with that. That makes sense because your whole life, you know, your slogan for life is don't judge. It's not our issue. You do you.

And all of a sudden they're saying, your job is to judge this woman, to be judge and jury, literally. Yeah, that would be difficult. And I support the verdict. Absolutely, and especially knowing what I know now. But it was still a very hard process to put myself in that position. Or to have my, I didn't put myself, but to have myself in that position. It was difficult because she's human.

She's another, you know. And I really struggled with. with going, okay, I know how I feel and I know the evidence that I'm looking at, but how do I correspond to this evidence with the law? Like how do I put together all of this information and prove that she was planning this, which that's how I felt initially until I kept seeing.

more and more evidence. And that kind of went, I had no problem with it after that. Yeah, the evidence started out slowly and then it just became a snowball at the end. It was just... So understanding your faith background, you mentioned Serena and how she got a little...

I'll let you describe how you thought... Narvis. ...acted with cross-exam with Serena. But it was almost... There was a lot of religious sort of argument during that cross-exam too. So what did you think then watching Lori cross-examine her once friend, Serena, and what they were discussing?

I thought she was nasty to her. Yeah. But the thing with Serena, she didn't appear nervous. It was Christina. I'm mixing them up. Serena stood her ground. She heard what she heard, and she wasn't going to.

pedal backwards. About the zombies. She heard about the zombies. The trans being translated. Translated. Yeah. About the evil spirit within Charles named Ned. About all of the stuff that she heard at these get-togethers, events, whatever you want to call them.

Yeah. She stood her ground. You're right. She did. She didn't waver. And then of course, Lori's big thing was, did you see me planning this or did you hear me planning this? And of course, you know, it was no, no, no. She said that with almost every person.

And I was like, she must be saying this for, that's when I was like, she must be saying this for a reason. So how do I put this evidence together with the law? which all came together at the end because the closing argument Trina was excellent. I mean it was long and detailed but I needed that. She literally pointed out everything and matched it to which law it applied to. There was no question after that. Right. Right.

Right. I thought she did an excellent job. Give me a defense after that. And that's what I struggled with is I get that Lori's innocent until proven guilty. She doesn't have the burden to prove her innocent, but give us a defense. I felt like that went to her head and she just felt like she didn't need to do anything. Give us a defense. her defense was saying i don't need a defense right everyone right everyone either need a defense but right but you're saying you needed more you said you wanted more especially on her crosses when

she points out certain things well you have an opportunity now to go back and pool evidence to support your statements and you're choosing not to why so in other words you're listening to her statements you're willing to give her statements credit, but you would like evidence to back them up. You're not just going to take them at face value. You're saying, I'm listening to you, Lori, so show us the evidence that backs up and she never did that. Yeah.

She, um, the little white lies, I'm like, if she's going to lie about not running out of the house and not having shoes on, but then clearly in a video showing she had shoes. shoes on. My first thought was maybe they were in Charles's car and maybe they're his flip flops or slides. You're really giving her the benefit of doubt then. We zoomed in. Those shoes fit her better than the Walgreen shoes that she bought that appeared to be too big. You guys really focused on this. And you're giving her the benefit of the doubt. Maybe

there's somebody else's shoes, but you're saying. I honestly in my gut, I felt she was guilty, but I was focused on the law. I was focused on I can't accuse somebody being guilty if it doesn't follow A through Z. So for my conscience, I really, it was the details. Okay. Yeah. That makes sense. That makes a lot of sense to me, a lot of logic.

She mentioned, you know, the text messages being misunderstood. Did we know that her brother was a comedian? Well, could you give it? So make us understand. If we're misunderstanding and misreading these text messages, please give us something. And she wouldn't give us anything. Make it make sense. Make this help us understand.

We're listening. But how is this a joke? How is this Nephi text a joke? You know, you will be like Nephi or I'll be like Nephi. Yeah. Which, by the way, Nephi, that was a big part of Nephi really made an appearance in this trial. You know about Nephi growing up LDS. Well, and it, yeah, I mean, it's cartoons.

You know what I do? Right. Living scriptures or whatever. Right. You learn it as a child. But what really got me about the whole Nephi thing is the text messages are black and white. Okay. She from her mouth is texting, I am of Nephi and soon you will be too to her brother. Can you say premeditation? Right. Very black and white. And she's a very, she's a very literal person herself.

Right. It's hard. Yeah. I mean, she's so literal, Lori's so literal. She's saying, if I didn't say this to you, Serena,

then it didn't happen. And yet she's trying to then say that this text that she sent, as you point out, very black and white, maybe is more nuanced. And you're like, show me.

Like, right. And it's not. What is the mission? What was the mission? What are we misunderstanding? In black and white, we have these words. Explain. No, you don't have to. You're innocent until proven otherwise. But have a defense. Give me something to put doubt in my, you know, you're not giving anything. You're arguing about chicken enchiladas. and stuff that has nothing to do with the issue at hand. Supporting you as, yeah. Speaking of chicken enchiladas, what did you think of her, well, first off, what did you think of her brother Adam's testimony?

It was damning for sure. I mean, I got a really good vibe from them. I want to laugh because I was going to say he was hot no I'm joking this is why they had a female on the jury right here here you know love his voice yeah no seriously um yeah he had a lot to say and it was all very very important stuff he knew he knew what was going on he knew what was going on he knew he knew knew that things were not right. Why is his brother not responding to him when he clearly said he could stay with him? Yeah, why is Alex not responding to Adam? Yeah. And he, why?

Because he's with Lori, planning something. Mm-hmm. Right. Which is to kill Charles. Yeah. Yeah. Right. I felt, I felt really.

He got choked up when he spoke of like finding out in Tucson. And just like with Kay, I felt those emotions. Yeah. So I definitely had sympathy. And after they both testified, you know, I knew where they were sitting and is it called the gallery? They were always in the front row. Yes. I was, I found myself making eye contact with Kay.

I mean, I wanted to hug her. I just, I felt for them. Yeah, you understood. Did you not understand who she was before her testimony? No. Yeah, and then after, you understood. Did you know everybody else who was sitting on the front row? Did you know who they are?

No. No. Yeah. Kay testified to understand that. I thought that maybe the gentleman next to her is maybe her husband, Larry. And it was actually Jerry Valo. It was a brother. Brother of Charles.

I learned later. But I was guessing, but they all were family or something. Absolutely. Yeah. And did you know that you probably didn't know that that was Lori Vallow's son that came a couple of times as well, her only surviving child that was there? No. And I can't even imagine. Yeah.

But I didn't know. I kept wondering. I kept looking for Tiley. Who would be an adult now? What, six years later? I didn't know. Yeah. I kept wanting to hear from her.

And a lot of us in the gallery and those of us reporting on the trial, we're wondering what the jury, that each individual juror was wondering about Tiley. So it's interesting to hear that question. And that was something I would go out at lunch sometimes and report live. And everybody wanted to know your reactions, which you guys did very well with your poker face. I didn't have much to ever really report, but minus their paying attention. But that was a question many of us had is, what were you thinking about Tiley?

Like clearly Tiley was a witness in this alleged murder. Now we can say murder, but during the trial alleged murder. And why would they not call her? yeah well and I also really felt like now granted she was a child a teenager at the time but I just kind of felt like she was involved too in a part of it yeah it's heartbreaking to think what her mother had brainwashed her with I will say that during her interview which Lori wanted to show and couldn't because she couldn't use someone she's convicted of murdering as a witness. It's a very sad interview to watch. We've watched it and she cries and tries to hold back her tears.

She hums a song from Muana. She cracks almost nearly every joint or, you know, in her body. The song from Muana that she sings has the line, I wish I could be the perfect daughter. She's humming it. It's very sad. what she knew or didn't know. And seeing a little 16-year-old in that position. It's very sad. And yeah, confusing, I'm sure, to have listened to that evidence. I have more questions from trial, and I also know that you have notes,

but because we're on the topic of Tiley, when did you find out about Tiley? immediately. You thought this was your run club era. Turns out it was more of a thinking about run club era. The good news? Someone's marathon training is about to start. Sell your workout gear on Deepop. Just snap a few photos and we'll take care of the rest.

They get their race day fit and you get a payout for trying. Someone on Deepop wants what you've got. Start selling now. Deepop where taste recognizes taste. immediately after the verdict. Yeah. When I say immediately, when I say immediately, I'm talking just like headlines of that happening. Did I have the story behind it?

I didn't. I did that later. But the headlines clearly said what she was already convicted for. did I have these gross details? No. So in other words, take me back that the verdict's been read by all of you. You go back to meet the judge. And is that when you Google on your phone or did the judge tell you?

No. So we went back to the judge. Then we were told that we were excused. I was even more confused because not knowing this whole process or this my first experience. I'm like, what about the sentencing? Why don't we get to stay for the sentencing? Why don't? And so we were put back in the jury room and he said, don't leave yet. I want to come back and personally shake everybody's hands, which he did. And when he came back was when he mentioned, you can now talk about the trial, but I advise that.

each of you to get on your phones and I don't know if you use the word Google research whatever wait though I'm trying to figure if this was before after I asked so he came back in to shake our hands and maybe he says does anyone have questions and I said yes what I'm confused why don't get to stay for the why aren't we in there for the sentencing what what is the result of the guilty verdict and he said um i think he said 27 years to life but then he said there's another trial and she will not be sentenced until after the next trial and that we're more than welcome to come back for that i was like what

And that's all we were given. You had no idea. And is that when you Googled on your phone? Yeah. And what were the headlines you saw? As soon as he, there's just like, it was never ending. So what, what did you see that said, did you just, did you just Google Lori Valo Debel? Yeah.

That's all. Lori Dave. I mean, I know. And it's just crazy. I did the full, the Valo Daybell. Okay. And you think to like separate them. What headlines are you looking at?

That she was found guilty for killing her kids and somebody and Tammy. Yeah, it didn't ring them. It wasn't like immediately. The thing that just was so devastating was the mention of Tiley and JJ. being murdered. That's hard to just... First of all, hon, I live in a bubble.

I don't like drama. I have a very tight, close. I don't have like a ton of friends, but if you're close to me or considered family or friend, it's tight. Yeah. I don't do that loosely.

I don't. I'm a mortgage underwriter. I work insane hours. I work around, you know, the clock and trying to always be available. So if I'm not working, that quality time with my two kids that I'm still needing to raise is so valuable because I realize from my grown kids how fast that time goes. Yeah. And so I always make, even at work, I make a joke. Why am I always the last to know? Well, Victoria, it's because you live in a bubble. Like, if there's gossip at work, like, I didn't know this. Yeah, you're just...

Why? Yeah, I know people like you. I know people like you. I'm one of the first to know. No, just kidding. I'm like, tell me more. I'm here. But you're just doing your own thing.

You have no idea. Yeah. Yeah. So when you take in all of this afterwards, I had immediate anxiety. I had, I kind of felt like I was a little bit having a panic attack. It was overwhelming. You were shaking when you came out of the courthouse.

I want to say I did come up to you. I got the last of your first interview and then you and I spoke after, admittedly. I was one of those journalists. People have called me out. You did this, Laura, and you went out. I did. I went up to Victoria and the other jurors that were talking. You were shaking, though.

You were shaking. You were, you, it was very clear you had just found something out. And I think that's why I'm asking you to tell me because I am so curious what happened before you walked out because you were physically shaking. It was hard to process. So it was like you have this information, but you don't have all of the details behind it, but you just know it's awful. The what-ifs go through your mind. like what if it was a hung jury what if not knowing all of this stuff what if you know um i felt for charles's family because you know now i hear people saying that it was just it's a waste of money for the

state this that and the other good for the state to give that family some justice and some people peace. It is a life. Yes. Yes. Carl mattered. Yeah. And he seemed like a good upstanding. That was another thing. She kept mentioning domestic violence. Why didn't, why wasn't any history of this presented? Was there a history of this? Obviously, there's no history of this. So just this. So just this. one single moment he just lost it right and if he did lose it you're there prepared with a gun when supposedly you went golfing with this guy he was your brother-in-law you guys had a friendship but now i'm going to shoot you because i feel threatened right it doesn't make sense give me other information.

I'm really mad now that I see that he, um, he filed something on Lori. Why wasn't that presented to us? The body camp footage when he was saying he, I think so. Yeah, he was saying.

Yeah, he was saying. Report to that they could have. Go ahead. I mean, he called police. He called police and said, I need help. And that's on body camp footage. He also, he switched the beneficiary. That actually says something to me.

He admitted to Nancy Joe the dilemma that he felt obviously unsafe because otherwise, why would she have suggested that he let Lori know that she's no longer on that insurance policy? Yeah. you know so which was very smart and very I mean I wish somebody would have said that to him weeks earlier you know for him to just because if in his mind obviously he's thinking she's saying all of this threatening stuff and she would benefit from this I need to tell her that she's no longer on it right all of those things you're pointing out exactly it just none of it makes sense and you're right charles i think from the evidence what we see with charles is that he was patient he was kind he i mean that's what i see the evidence is what a what a good guy he is right right yeah so just extremely sad and very very very I could go on forever.

I really think that that whole scene was staged within that, what, 40 whatever minutes before calling 911. I don't even think he was shot where he was shot the first time. Right. You think they moved him around. I think he was moved and then shot the second time. And that's not self-defense. I'm sorry, but he's harmless after you shoot him. the first time. What are you afraid of? That he might live? So you think you think that Charles then

and I don't know you know I you know in the end none of us will know um but we can all look at the evidence and assess so you think he was likely that he was shot his body was then moved the scene cleaned up the bat posed and then they shot him a second time. He was used by the door the hat thrown against the wall. Yeah. So if he snapped. and both of them are pretty good sized men, right? And they're going to go at it. There's not going to be any other damage. That doesn't make sense.

His watch was in perfect condition, not a scratch on it. The walls, the, I mean, I'm sorry, but there would be more than a scratch on somebody's head. Right. I know. And the only bruises he had was on his knees from most likely. falling to his knees when he was shot the first time and he put his hand up to hold where the wound was. So was that difficult to see those photos? Yeah, I have never, I feel part of me, Han really feels like a baby when I think back at it because now I'm realizing the photos

that the other juries in Idaho had to sit through. I couldn't, I can't imagine it. So yeah, it was hard, but I also realized that what I experienced was my newts to what went on in Idaho. Yeah, the jurors in Idaho saw some horrendous things. But that doesn't just count that you did too when it came to Charles. Two very different trials. And I feel for every juror in every trial.

But yes, I sat through her Idaho trial as well. And it is horrendous what those jurors had to see. So instead of going through, I mean, there's never ending documentary. when you Google her. What I wanted to, I wanted to know the deeds, being in this trial, I wanted to know the details

of the other two trials. So I listened to Lori's. It was audio, no video. You did listen. Yeah, and then his is both video and audio. and audio.

Mm-hmm. I had to take a break. And that's, you know, I feel bad. I put you off for weeks. I just, last week I wanted to be like, I'm not watching anything. Kind of just threw myself into work, which I needed to because it was month-end. I can't get rid of the knot in my stomach. Yeah.

found myself waking up nauseous going to bed nauseous just being nauseous all day long because i think i internalize a lot of things and suppress and i just thought it was to the point where it was unhealthy i have time to you know i still want the whole story and to put together the pieces but i just need to give myself a break. Yeah. I can't imagine. I didn't know that. One of the next questions I was going to ask you was what you watched since that time.

I wanted to be in those trials and listen. You know, obviously I wasn't and couldn't and didn't know about them. But I want to know the facts. not that documentaries don't get show facts right but after experiencing what i went through i wanted to know what everyone else has experienced in the actual courtrooms so i i went straight to that information i'm impressed and and i also know then what you heard and how difficult that is and so not just lorry's trial but also chad's yeah Both of them.

Anything that stood out to you the most? Well, I went through, thank goodness. And Chad's, they didn't show the actual pictures that the jurors saw. Instead, they put them on private screens, they said, or something. They didn't have it on the big court screen. But I sat there and listened to all of the descriptions. that the detective had to explain and describe and it was really gross. Yeah, really gross.

Yeah. Shocking, appalling, heinous. I know. I did see that she claims that this was all Tiley's doing. And then she explains that Tiley always wanted to be cremated. So she was. Not the same thing. No.

Not at all. So did you watch her interview with her remaining son? Yes. That was one outside of the trial. You know, like I said, there's a zillion documents and videos. But I think someone sent it to me, honestly. that I can't remember who it was. There was people I met while I was waiting for the shuttle.

And there was a lot of media. I spoke to you. And there was two other, all of you guys knew each other. But she had my name and number and she sent me some videos and that was one of them. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Starting a business can seem like a daunting task, unless you have a partner like Shopify.

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Yeah, I remember sending you a couple of videos too. Maybe it would do. I don't, yeah. Yeah, I might have my producer. I know you're in touch with my producer. Maybe, yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Yeah. Yeah. But yeah. I saw that and I just feel for Kobe. I know. I know. I know. I thought to show up at his mother's trial for even two, the two, three days.

I think it might have been four or five. I don't know how many, so forgive me, but just to do that was a lot, I think. And to support Kay and Larry and the Vallow's. Larry wasn't there, but Kay and Larry, you know, they're married. And then Susan Vallow and Jerry Vallow were there. And there was actually a cousin of Tammy Daybells that also showed up for a few days, Julie Brooks. And she also just happened to know Tiley and JJ and Charlie and Charlie and Chal. Charles and Lori.

And then Ray Hermesio was also there. Detective Ray Hermescio for a couple of days. He is the one that discovered the children's remains. And I don't know if you know all of this. So I'm just telling you everyone that was in the front row at different times, as well as other law enforcement from Idaho, Eric Wheeler. Those are a few of the people that appeared. And then Lori's cousin, Megan Connor, was there sometimes.

And then her uncle Rex, Connor, although he wanted to sit with the prosecution, not the defense, both of them did. And then, of course, you know Adam. So those are the people that showed up. So her parents weren't there. Her sister weren't there. All these people that she mentioned why they weren't interviewed or why they weren't witnesses on behalf of her character or whatever. which she chose not to have either. But I was wondering, they were all absent.

So you did note that. Did you wonder where anybody was that was supporting her? Yeah. Once it came to realizing that it was going to go into closing arguments, and she wasn't going to testify, nor did she have any witnesses. I had to scratch my head and be like, why? I get the whole, you're innocent, but give me some type of defense.

I get it's not your burden, but it is the prosecution's burden, and they did a pretty damn good job. So the ball is in your court. Well said. Exactly. It's a prosecution's burden. They did a hell of a job. Take it away, Lori. Show us what you got in nothing. Yeah. Well said. I really didn't. In the beginning, I was just, you know, when we walked in and out, I would look at the ground. I didn't want to catch eye contact with anyone. But then after Kay's testimony and me knowing who should. she was and that she was sitting there in the front, I then just started like visually looking at who was out there. And just watching her and her reactions. She was very reactive until the end when we found her guilty and no reaction whatsoever, just stonefaced. Lori. Yeah. But the whole time, she had reactions to everything.

What were the reactions you're seeing? So this is interesting to all of us because none of us could face Lori. Not even the camera. Except when she turned around to talk. Right. Yeah. If she turned around, we could see. If it was to the side, we could see.

But really, the jury could see and the judge and the court clerk and the recorder. So what were her reactions that you saw? What were her expressions during the trial? She was flipping through her papers. and making notes every time she heard something that she didn't agree with that Trina was saying. And she would be shaking her head. Did see the head shakes a lot. And I could see frantic writing, you know.

Right. Yeah. And then she would like mouth things. I'm not a good mouth reader. So I just knew she was reacting. things that she felt were nonsense. She would giggle and laugh and like it was a joke. I don't know.

It was just strange behavior. Really strange. It sounds like Lori. I mean, Lori is strange. So yeah, strange behavior. It sounds like Lori Valo-Dabal and what we've seen from her in the years past. too, but not emotional as far as sadness, but just. Yeah.

Like, I intentionally looked at her when they'd show the biopsy pictures or just the pictures of Charles in general. Mm-hmm. No reaction. Would she smile at you guys? Yeah. I had eye contact with her many times. And what would she do?

do just look or smile or smile and i it made me feel nervous i would have initial contact and then i'd like put my head down or just look in a different direction yeah right because it made you uncomfortable um that's so interesting i figured she was giving me a number and it didn't make me feel good You brought up Kay's testimony a few times now. What did you think of her cross-examining, Kay? I just thought that that was sad, and she really didn't cross-examine her. I mean, it was very short, and it was the last sentence. Oh, when Kay kind of, like, snapped back and stood her ground.

Sure. About the evidence. Yes. You could tell that it just. totally threw her off. Like she just kept flipping through pages. And then her only comeback was, did you hear me or see me planning to kill my husband?

Wow. Yeah. Which was her go-to. Right. And then Kay's response, I thought, was so well done. She said, no, but I've seen a lot of evidence that you did. And then she didn't even like ask for it to be like she just was out of there. Right. She was like, okay, well, we're done here.

Moving on. No, I know. That was a, it was a mic drop moment for me to hear Kay say that. Right. She did a really good job. I was very worried for a very long time about Lori cross-examining Kay. I was nervous for K. And yet she did such an incredible job.

You could tell that that was the one and only time that Lori was nervous. That's interesting. Yeah. Which you don't see a lot of when it comes to Lori. She gave if looks could kill when Serena got off the bench. And instead of walking around, she walked straight through the middle. Lori looked her up and down. And if arrows, if you could see arrows coming out of somebody's eyes, looks could kill.

Wow. Wow. That was intense. That's so interesting to hear. Yeah, she, I thought that was interesting, too, because I do think that she was perhaps even threatened with Serena in their little friend group. As I've looked back and researched this, who's just a little my analysis of it, that Serena was actually kind of pushed out of this friend group because I think Lori was always a little bit threatened. by Serena. Yeah, that's my take. That is purely my opinion and speculation.

To hear you say if looks could kill is really interesting. That's like a look we couldn't see. What other expressions like that? What did she? Well, let me ask you what you thought about her cross exam with Adam. Her brother. I know we brought up Adam's testimony, but I was curious. You brought up the green chili enchiladas.

really wasn't across yeah it really wasn't a cross exam like sometimes she'd go up there and say stuff and you're like where is this going why is this even relevant like it was just like a waste like i i don't remember her saying anything to him that made you question something he had said or made you like had there was no aha moment In her, and then you're stuck on the green enchiladas, right? Because she spent more time on the green enchiladas than she did anything else. Yes, the green enchiladas, I wanted to ask you. I mean, that was a weird moment for everyone, right?

It was weird for us in the gallery, but was that strange for the jurors to hear her upset? Yeah. And I don't know. I think at that time, I was starting to have some facial reactions because I, I think I found myself rolling my eyes. and thinking, thank goodness the camera doesn't include us. That was a moment where I could see if it was yours reactions. Yes.

And then the cross was Serena, which is why I asked about it, because it was sort of like this Bible bash back and forth. And my most favorite thing was when Nancy Jove snapped back and said, don't flatter yourself. I was like, please make a T-shirt. that says that. I will be your first customer. We have it. Do you? Okay. Yeah, we have it. And Nancy Joe now has one. Well, I want her to sign one for me. We will make that happen. We will make that happen. I'll talk to Nancy Joe. Yeah. We have a T-shirt. Don't flatter yourself T-shirt. We had it. It was amazing, wasn't it? I was so

proud of Nancy Joe for standing her ground. Yeah. And that had to have been hard. Could you even imagine, I mean, to be cross-examined by her and. Yeah. And then at that point, we didn't know about the chat, her and Chad text. I don't think we even knew about her relationship with Chad. So you're just thinking this is an angry wife whose husband was possibly cheating on her and going on date. and going on dates, like a lot more information came out after that, but, and when that other,

where I was going with that is when you did see the text between her and Chad going back as far as 2018 and these little stories back and forth that they had. You're like, and you went so hard on Nancy Y? Thank you, yes. Thank you. Thank you. Like, hypocrite, right? You know, I know. Thank you. That was one thing in deliberation that I really liked because I felt like the text messages we went through really fast and I felt like we focused on sections of them, which would probably make sense. I mean, it would have taken forever to. but we had an actual copy of all of that so in deliberation we had someone read them out loud from like back in november 2018 and the whole back and forth text and you really get a visual of the relationship and what was going on the love story the love text the love story because she had to dip through all that because that got really steamy and I can see why she wouldn't want to but yeah the James and Elena story or the

yeah the scientific phenomenon of loin fire says one of the texts and it's very awkward yes yeah yeah yeah and I just was like and you went hard on Nancy because why oh and I liked her come back going I went to dinner with him I didn't sleep with him yeah yeah right right right right right right Right. Exactly. Nancy Joe, well played. Well done. Definitely. And she was a friend to him. And you know what? I'm grateful that he had her to talk to. I can't imagine what he was going through, you know? I can't imagine thinking that you've been ghost and then finding out, was it a year later? I don't know how long later, but realizing what really transpired. the day after you last spoke to him. I can't imagine. I know.

And to have those texts on your phone and to think that the very next day, you know, this man you just met was murdered by his own family. It's heartbreaking. Can you take us to the deliberation room then? You're there. You're reading the love story and everybody's feeling awkward,

but not everyone was sold on her guilt. We've heard from Carl here at Hidden 2 Crime, and so we know that, can you take us back there, though, with fellow jurors and how you guys came to your verdict? So we went back on that Monday, and I want to say,

was it 3 o'clock? We had instructions to decide who the foreman was going to be. What was the other instruction? Oh, to give them a schedule as to what hours we wanted to work the next day, was we staying that day, you know, what we wanted our schedule to be. So we all decided we were ready to call it a day. back fresh the next day. We voted for the foreman. There was three of us that wanted that position. So everybody took a vote. And so that was Monday. So then we came back Tuesday.

We took a vote as to where everyone stood. Like, do you have do you have your mind up or i don't even think the first vote was is are you leaning towards guilty or not guilty it was basically do you know your verdict or do you need more time so there was like maybe four people that needed more time three or four and then after lunch it was who's voting guilty and who's leaning towards not guilty or still the mind your mind still is isn't made up. There was one or two people after lunch. And then just out of the blue, I thought it was going to run until Wednesday. I was shocked because it was going on three o'clock and we're still having these discussions. And I really, I looked at the time and I was like, we're coming back tomorrow. And then out of the blue, they were like, okay, let's not. not waste any more time. Let's wrap this up and let's see who's where. And everybody said guilty. And then it like instantly, it was went to the judge and we sat there for a good,

I want to stay 40 minutes waiting for them to call us back into the courtroom. And we read the verdict and then I told you how we were sent back and the judge came to talk to us and I was confused going what about the sentence what is she looking at why don't we get to hear that and then we were told to we were advised to look up information before we left the jury room and then that happened quickly too. Did you see other jurors? So I wasn't able to digest. It all happened like so fast. Like I could have probably set in that jerk, but we all had to walk out together.

And I could have probably sat there just trying to take everything in. I don't know for a good at least 45 minutes or hour. Yeah. It was almost like being in shock. Yeah. Yeah.

And then I was just like in panic mode. Like I know when we first walked down, the media tent was like, does anyone want an interview? And we all shook our head no. And the majority of us was like basically taking off running. I had a blister on my foot. There's no way I was going to take off running. But I shook my head and just kind of had my head. down and then it was like hearing a stampede Carl just happened to be walking at the same pace

as me so he was like right there next to me and it was like a stampede behind us and that in itself was overwhelming for me because I was like I'm trying to digest this I have how many it felt like 20 microphones cameras phones phones around me and they were all at different levels. I didn't know whether to talk to you down there or you right here, you over, like, it was just overwhelming. Very overwhelming. I felt better once I got to the curb where I was waiting for the shuttle and I felt more of like,

I felt the kindness and love from you guys that was over there. Good. It wasn't like the major news stations. It was more like, hey, how are you feeling? Are you okay? We've been following this, you know, for the last six years. We can only imagine, you know, it was more, I just felt kindness. I was still probably shaking like a leaf and I was still probably, you know,

I felt hives all over my body, but I at least, I felt love and kindness from that group of ladies, which you were a part of. Yes, and I remember that moment. And I just want to say, I'm relieved to hear that too, because, you know, certainly, yeah, that I, you know, I was worried about all of you and you. And then I did rethink everything. after. I have to be honest, I rethought everything after. You know, I have to think I make game day decisions and I think, is that okay? You know, but I did. I did want you to know after that. Like, look, are you okay? You sent me text. Yeah. Yeah. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers,

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Start your free trial today at aura.com slash remove. Protect yourself now at aura.com slash remove. It was just a lot to take in. And I really had no desire to be on the news or to be, I really wasn't even ready to talk. I really, you know, you know, because we had the option of talking way earlier from today, but I was just like, I need to take this all in. I need to do my research. And then after that, I just felt like I need a break. Like, I don't want to even talk about this for a whole five days at least. like I need to get rid of this nausea and this knot in my stomach, which I still have. Who knows when that will go away?

I feel very vested in this story as being a part of the trial, one of three. And I definitely want to be there when she's sentenced because that was really extremely. like, wait a minute. Like, we found her guilty, but we don't get to see the sentencing, not knowing that there was another trial and that

they would sentence her at the end of that one. Yeah. So the door isn't going to be closed until I hear that. So that makes sense. I know that you're not alone.

there are other jurors from her Idaho trial that felt the exact same. And the sentencing in Idaho was actually five hours from the trial because the trial was held in Boise and the sentencing in Rexburg, the East Idaho area, on jurors drove just to be there at the sentencing because it was important to them. So I understand that many understand what you're feeling. Are you going to go to Brandon Boudreau's trial? I'm sure you know all about Brandon Boudreau now. I would like to, however, I'm a single mom. I would need to take time off from work.

I definitely want to be there at the end so that for the sentencing, which is kind of a gamble because you don't know deliberation if it's going to take one day or multiple days. Sure. But, so I plan on being there at the end. And I plan on watching it. I'm assuming they'll stream it on TV. Yes.

Yes, so you'll be able to follow. Yeah. I would love to be there every day, but I just, with my schedule, there's no way I can make that happen. Understandable. So I think the most important would be at the end. And I really did want to give Kay a hug and just tell her, you know, that she's loved and that, you know, I don't know what the right words is. I just want to hug the lady.

Yeah. Absolutely. Victoria, I'm so grateful that you were a juror, that you were insightful. You were emotional, but you're also able to put your emotions aside to focus on the law, on the evidence. It was a heavy burden to bear. So thank you. I know that you brought notes to this interview. I know that I'm sure there are things you really want to be able to say.

Is there anything else you want to talk about or share? Oh, they didn't let us take our notes. Oh, yeah. Tell us about that. Everything had to be shredded afterwards. you don't have your notes so I've kind of just randomly kind of wrote down because it right afterwards everything's such a blur anyways so as things come to me I kind of just write down whatever and I wanted to be prepared and for questions yeah but I don't know

like the key evidence for me was the text history between everybody. It was between the whole love story with Chad and Laurie before and after the murder took place. Charles being referred to as Ned and him changing his insurance plan before we killed him, that whole text. And that text was when they found out that she was no longer a part of that. The whole text between her and her brother, Alex, just supporting a motive. The whole we spoke about the Nephi text. The planning of the mission, those texts between back and forth between her and Mel, and even her and her sister's summer,

just updating Lori as to where about, you know, where Adam is and his whole schedule. And so for me, it was really a combination of things. It wasn't like one particular moment. It was just all of it together, which I think is a thing. good thing because I mean okay so I don't know so there's a motion now that's out and she's discussing who the detectives testimony being thrown out I'm like none of this stuff is

relevant with or without his testimony that's it was like black and white stuff that I saw of Lori more so than anything. You know what I'm saying? And it was several things. So I don't care if you remove the detective's testimony or this or that. I still have enough information to prove you guilty. I loved that Trina did the majority of

of our thinking or support behind, okay, we have this evidence. Where do we link it to which law? Where does it come under words, actions, conduct, motive? She linked all of those. So that was extremely helpful because I would know I was struggling with that. I had what I felt in my gut, but I wasn't going to convict somebody. I wanted it to be based on evidence. Yeah.

There was something else. I just lost my train of thought. When you read guilty, what did Lori do? She was pretty much stone-faced. Yeah. Even when we individually had to say it, she she didn't have much of a reaction. And I think where I was sitting because I could always see her

like behind Trina speaking. And she was kind of just like in my view. Like I was constantly watching her whether I wanted to or not because she was like the background of whoever, you know, every time Trina stood up and spoke. Yeah. So, and she was very animated. But at the end, nothing. Nothing. I know. Yeah, that's interesting. We couldn't see her reaction, but I didn't see her head flinch or anything. I saw no head shaking. I didn't see note taking. All her usual reactions. I just, yeah. So interesting. Yeah, I have a lot of notes. But I think we pretty much touched.

based on. And I mean, there's so much we could talk about like the loaded gun being unlocked in a gun case. Why is that okay, but it's not okay to leave JJ in a running car in the front seat because you're playing games with a phone. Why don't you just give the phone back? Right. Why are you not concerned about the gun in your house? Why? I mean, So many things. So many. At what point, at one point during the trial, it was really hard to hear when you know what happened to JJ. She says, you know, my husband and I, we were just trying to do what was best for our, you know, seven-year-old son.

There were so many lines like this where for the jurors who might not have known. It probably made you guys want to throw up. Mm-hmm. For those in the gallery and think about Kay sitting there. and it was so difficult to hear some of the things she was saying knowing what we knew. Well, and I felt really bad for every time that they would show a picture of Charles laying there or the autopsy or whatever it was, her head immediately would go down and she didn't want visual of that. Yeah, Kay would look down.

Right. Yeah. As what Jerry and Susan has. Right. two other siblings that were there. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And Laurie was just not, there was no impact.

There was no just nonchalant. I don't. The famous word. The drugging him, wanting, Alex saying, wanting to kill him. Now, Charles went in and wanted to stay for 20 minutes. Well, he stayed for 20 minutes. But her whole, she had, her herself had said, no, I don't want you staying here. You can take JJ to Burger King.

But then you held his phone and played a phone game with him for more than 20 minutes. The phone thing is maddening. When she talks about what Charles did in a fight they got in, you started it. Just give him his phone back. Right. You know? And you know what else I caught on to? So she had, they had their, his password was zero zero zero zero. Well, why would she hold, if she had his passcode, why was she holding her phone and stating to him, I want to see your text?

If you have somebody's passcode, you'd already have put it in there and be viewing the text. Exactly. Did she reset it after he was shot and do like face recognition or whatever? Wow. And then got into his phone and changed his password because zero, zero, zero. Yeah, there's a lot on that phone. I think we don't know what happened because she's also desperate to get her own extraction of that phone. There's a lot on that phone.

Where was the horrible text message of him threatening her? Right. Where is that? Right. Where is it? Where's the history of him having an issue with domestic violence? There is none. Right. There isn't. There is evidence of him being very patient and being a very good dad. And I don't think there was any struggle. I don't think there was any blows and rolling around on the floor. So Alex went from rolling around on the floor. So Alex went from rolling around on the floor. to taking a time out and walking back to his bedroom and getting the gun and coming back and using it like, huh? Exactly. And I always point that out. Once you walk away, you're not in harm's way. Right. If you, if you can walk away and Lori can leave, there's no self-defense. Right. And they both talked about leaving the room, you know? It was just too many unknown, unanswered, no defense. It was just, for me, it was not one particular thing. Yeah. That makes sense. It was the accumulation of all of the evidence that you looked at at the end.

If I have to choose something, it would be the black and white. Here's the communication. Here's the text messages. that was more for me than somebody's testimony or anything else. That was the biggest thing for you. Yeah. But even that, it was multiple text messages. It wasn't just one particular one. It was just the whole, all of it. Yeah.

So. Anything else? Anything else? No, hon. I just thank you for, being so kind to me. Oh my goodness. I can't imagine what you're going through.

And look, there are more people I can put you in touch with too. I think there are other jurors from the past trial that would be happy to talk to you too if you're interested and process with behind the scenes. I regret like us jurors not being probably because it wasn't as long amount of time as Idaho. There's only two and a half weeks. Right. But I would have liked a better closeness and like, you know, we went through this together. Only us experienced this. But it seems with the Arizona jurors, we just, I've reached out to different people and asking how people are.

And there's not been any communication. No one really, it's not like the closeness that I see from the Idaho group of people. Sure. It wasn't until after deliberation where I got a piece of paper and I said, we all need to follow up. And like if we want to go together to the sentencing, whatever, and ask for everybody to put their name and number. And then after everyone's on there, take a picture of it. So you can just have everybody's information. And we can follow up with each other.

I wasn't referring to during. During it was, yeah, we talked about the weather. We talked about camping. We talked about our kids, our pets. Things that were safe. Right. Yeah. that weren't off limits.

Which you would want to do anyways, getting to know, I mean, you're spending day after day with these people, you know, I just, I wish there was more of a connection there. That makes sense. Yeah. So that makes me kind of sad. Well, I will, we'll definitely put you in touch to some people that I know would like to talk to you behind the scenes. and does the state of Arizona offer counseling for any jurors of trials like this? Do you know? I have no idea, but I know my work, my employer does. Yeah, what you've been through is a lot. And you know, just, you know, too, when it comes to trauma,

a lot of times when two or three people experience trauma together, sometimes it makes them closer, and other times they isolate. So it could be what's going on with these jurors. That's true. That's true. Yeah. Who knows? That makes sense.

And I know that the judge said that he would let us all know about the sentencing. But for some reason, if we don't get that information, please reach out to me when you have like the schedule or the information. if, you know, I might see it online somewhere. I don't know. But for now, I'm really trying to give myself a break. Yeah. Look, give yourself a break, but if you need to text me, feel free, privately.

Anything else you want to say, Victoria at all? No. Just like I said, thank you for your kindness. Just there's been multiple people that, I just felt the love and kindness from them, and I really appreciate it. It was a hard process. So glad. Thank you for being here, and I hope we can perhaps talk soon again.

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