Hidden True Crime - DELPHI MURDERS: Libby German's Grandma, Becky Patty, Breaks Her Silence

Episode Date: March 31, 2025

In this episode, John and Lauren sit down with Becky Patty, the grandmother of 14-year-old, Libby German, who was murdered in Delphi, Indiana. About Hidden True Crime: What started as a simple conversation at their dinner table became a captivating podcast. Join the dynamic duo of Dr. John Matthias, a criminal psychologist, and Lauren Matthias, an investigative journalist, as they delve into the psychological facets of unthinkable crimes every week. Their unique perspectives and in-depth analysis offer a fresh take on true crime storytelling. Thank you for your support through sponsorships, subscribing, listening, and becoming a Patreon member at Patreon.com/HiddenTrueCrime Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We have a very special, very important interview here at Hidden True Crime today. We are honored to have Becky Patty with us, Libby German's grandmother. And I also know Becky that, you know, February 14th, February 13th just happened last week again. It was another year without Libby and probably, you know, one of the hardest. days of your life. And so I just want to say that we are thinking of you. And I can't imagine those dates as they pass each year, how it feels. It has been eight years now. Yep, you can try to ignore it. You can run from it. But I mean, I don't pay attention to the dates, but when that day comes up, it just slaps you in the face. You know, I go through my day no matter what I'm doing.

look at that clock and I can I I walk through that day every time every year I walk through it it starts getting close to one o'clock you know okay I know she's coming out when she's saying goodbye I know you know it gets to two o'clock I know they're close to the bridge you know you walk through it no matter how hard you try you can't change it can try to change it can try to kind of in your mind, but it done. So yeah, those are tough days. Don't do a lot, don't go anywhere. Just kind of stay home and get through it.

This was the first year where there was a guilty verdict. Someone convicted for killing your granddaughter and her best friend, Abby Williams. Uh, did that create any difference of a feeling this, this anniversary? In, no. I mean, we're all, there's the relief that he has been put away. He never has a chance to hurt anybody else.

We have that satisfaction, but it doesn't bring the girls back. At least we have a face now to the killer, when before it was, you just had a blank. So whether there's answers or not, it doesn't change. how you feel. Richard Allen, bridge guy, the bridge guy. He's been convicted of killing those two little girls. Yeah, I can imagine. The nightmare never ends.

And, you know, Becky, one reason you're here today, a big reason is we really just want to listen to you because there's been a gag order and you haven't been able to talk since before this trial. How long is this? How long was there a gag order? How many years was it? Two years. Two years. The gag order came out after the very first hearing with the defense lawyers. So, I mean, from the very beginning, you know, he was he was arrested. Lawyers were appointed. We went to court and within a week there was a gag order. I can't imagine. I watched, you know, I was at that trial. I watched you every day. I watched you honor that gag order. I would have been screaming in my seat each day. I just want you to know. There were, no, there were times. There were times it was very, very hard.

I mean, there were times that through the last two years, there were times that I would call Nick and I'd be ran I'd just be going off just going off I I said I'm done I'm over it I can't I can't do this this isn't right you know and he would he would calm us down and say you know we we we have to do this we have prosecutor yes prosecutor for the case so when you stop and take a minute and think about it then you realize yeah yeah we're doing this for them and we're doing this for the right reasons. And so that made it easier to stay quiet. When you said you couldn't do it, meaning the gag order, you can't do this.

Like it's so hard. And he just said, he encouraged you. There were, yes, there were times that things were coming out. And there were things that I knew wasn't true. I knew personally was not true. And you can't say, we couldn't say a word. We couldn't come out there and say, they're lying. It's not.

isn't true. You couldn't do it. So that's tough. Incredibly tough. Speaking of that, could you talk about maybe some of the those big frustrations? What were some of the biggest frustrations you had that you feel, that you feel like maybe you can talk about them now? Because we're here to listen to you. This is about listening and finally giving you a voice. Gallagher, over. Well, one of the things that was in the Franks motion, it was about me and said that I was the one that told law enforcement about the odinism. No, no, I wasn't.

And, but I do remember one of the officers out here, and we were talking and I said, well, have you heard the latest on Facebook? You know, I, that's where I found out. this stuff. And that's when we discussed this odinism thing. You know, this is what they're saying. So I found out a lot of my information just like everybody else off of Facebook. Did I know anything? Did I tell them that they should look into this? Not at all. And so after you start reading some of this stuff, I know when I was then given my deposition to Mr. Baldwin and he was quite surprised and said you, didn't read the Franks motion.

I said, I started it, but after a few times of seeing things that were outright not true, I decided I'm not, I'm not wasting my time on this. He was floored that I hadn't read at all and I didn't, you know, I think this was the best piece of written material out there. But no, when you start reading something and you see things in it that's not true, why would you go through and read the rest of it? So I don't know. there was just, and like when the pictures come out.

Crime scene photos, is that we're referring to? Yes. Yes. Yes. I'm so sorry. And we weren't allowed to say anything about it, nothing. And I have my own thoughts on it. I don't care what happened. I have my own thoughts on it all.

Share. Safe space to share whatever you want to say. No, you know. This is kind of funny because I did listen. I listened to all the interviews of the defense team. And I know in the investigation of it, Mitch Westerman came out and said that he took the photos. He on his own, he took them and he spread them, you know, gave him to somebody else. And they got out there and that Andrew Baldwin had nothing to do with it.

Well, Andrew Baldwin's all upset because Jerry Holwell. Holman had a gut feeling that he was involved. And so he went after him hard. And I'm glad. I am glad. But you know what? Andrew Baldwin was never arrested because there was never any evidence that he was involved. And he is going out there and going on and on and on.

How dare Jerry Holman try to arrest him. But on the other hand, you have Andrew Baldwin thinking that they needed to arrest these guys on Odin They were investigated very hard. Two years, his own witness. And his own witness got up there and said there was no evidence putting them out there. But yet he wants them arrested for it. So isn't that kind of double standards? Don't come after me on a gut feeling.

But go ahead and arrest these guys on a gut feeling, you know? You mean no evidence but a gut feeling with him wanting, you know, the Odinism theory. Right. Gut feeling not on evidence. Right. That's what that, that's what that police officer said up on the stand was there was no evidence. It was just a gut feeling. So that's why I have sat there and I watch this.

And I'm like, why do these people still think that they should be arrested? You know, all these people that are saying that we should be glad. we should be glad that we live in a country that you're not arrested if they're in enough evidence to arrest you. All these people are saying that Richard Allen is innocent and these other people should be arrested. Well, there's never been any evidence for any of these other, any other suspects, none of them. They've all been investigated, but they were never arrested because there was not the evidence. Richard Allen, he put himself there and there was evidence. So he was arrested.

I'm glad that people can't arrest other people for no evidence. evidence, but they seem to think it's okay to do that. Many people wondered how you felt during the trial because of the gag order you couldn't share. People thought, oh, do Libby and Abby's family? Do they believe Richard Allen is guilty? And your answer is? Most certainly, with our, you know, with our whole heart. And everybody's entitled to their own thoughts on this.

That I sat in every single hearing. I heard every bit of that evidence. I am also on the outside and heard all the other stuff going around. But I also heard them saying, you know, witnesses saying that there was no evidence. So when you sit here and you listen to all this, why would you not think he's guilty? No, we, our family truly believes with our whole hearts that he is guilty. and that's not just emotionally based. That is from everything that I have seen inside and outside of the court.

Many people will say that, that it's emotional for you. Oh, you don't, you have lived this for eight years. Yes. Yes. Was there any evidence that you felt was the most compelling? I think it's more the total. there isn't just one piece because let's face it most of it on him is circumstantial there is the bullet there are his confessions but there are also so many circumstantial pieces that putting there you know

one of the things that they're going on about a lot right now is the time they're saying the timing is all off um because of this video of this van going down 625. I personally think that it makes it stronger. I saw that too, actually. Yeah. I think that that makes the case even stronger. Because if he didn't happen to be at the bottom of the bridge with the girls when the van came by,

he could have been across that creek with the girls and still saw that van go by. Absolutely. It's close enough. That could have still freaked him out. So if he would have taken them across the creek and had them undressed, and that goes along with the phone, too. If they went across the creek and the phone was laid down, they had to take their clothes off or whatever,

that timing all fits, even more so. I just want to say that. I agree also, we now know that there was indeed a van, right? like there was a van that drove around that time. So, and just because the phone didn't move again, doesn't mean, you know, that that was the last thing that happened. The phone could have dropped, right? Like, I agree.

It didn't really mean much to me. And I actually thought it was kind of funny that they argued one thing in court, the defense, and then they decided to continue arguing their case with a whole different theory and evidence they chose not to bring up in trial. You know, I want to go back though really quickly to the crime scene photos that were released, you know, of your precious Libby and her best friend Abby. You do believe that that was done on purpose. Gut failing. Got failing says yes.

Yes. The timing and the specific photos that were linked. It's funny that the very photos that goes along with that Franks motion are the only ones leaked. The photos they needed for the Franks memo about odinism. Those were the ones that were leaked to the public. The big thing was the branches, right? And those were the photos that were leaked were the ones with the branches. Yeah.

I'm sorry. Going back to John's question. Sorry for that little tangent there, but yeah, what other evidence, John, what was your question? What other evidence did you see the confessions, the being there at the crime scene? The van, I think, kind of put the nail in the coffin. That was kind of, and you know, there's people out there that says there's no way that he could have done this a lot. or he couldn't have drug Libby or he couldn't have different things because he was a small man. But what they are neglecting to consider is the fact he was in the military.

He was a national guard for what, 10 years? You're trained to do that. You're trained to move people that are hurt. You know, you're trained to do that stuff. He most certainly could have done all of that. And these are two 14-year-old girls I want to point out. that had just reached a dead end with nowhere to go. And they are just trying to survive.

And they're thinking, what is our best option here? Do we run and scream? He has a gun. Do we stay? Do we behave? I'm sorry, I just want to say to this too. I feel so angry when people say he couldn't have done that. I almost feels like victim blaming to me.

None of us know what. Libby and Abby went through in those last moments and what they were trying to do. And you know what? They did a hell of it. job. They got video and they saved that phone and they did what they could. Yes, they did. My belief and John, go ahead. I was just going to say it also negates the fact that when you know, when when people are in the midst of these types of behaviors, these types of actions, their adrenaline goes through

the roof. You have you have a situation where people make that argument but they're forgetting the fact that he was amped up. He was, you know, he was, right, he, he, he had, I'm sure he had quite a bit of adrenaline throwing through his system. And that in and of itself would create a situation where his strength would increase, where he would have, right, he could, it's the story about the, you know, the, the, the mother that their child gets pinned under the car and they picked the 2,000 pound car up because they're so invested.

in the outcome and they're so emotional and their adrenaline is so amped up that they're able to perform feats that they normally wouldn't. So that's part of it too for me. Could he have done that? Absolutely. And he wasn't a skinny guy then. He might be a scrawny little guy after being in prison. But he wasn't skinny back then, you know.

And he seemed to, if you looked at some of the videos and stuff, before they took him down, You know, he, he, he, he, he, it looks like they walked trails. They did stuff. It seems like he was halfway active. So it wasn't like he was just a couch potato. John and I clearly agree with you that they got the right guy. I, you know, John, um, has read everything he can possibly read, including the Franks memo, so you don't have to. I sat through trial, uh, every day, you know, um, you know, um, you know,

seeing you, but hardly talking to you. I want to make that clear too. You know, I was not. Some people think I got too close to the family or swayed. You and I hardly exchanged words. I just reported what I saw every day, not knowing if you were approving or not. But just so you know, John and I also agree that they got the right guy.

Well, thank you. And I know what you're saying. I'll be honest. I didn't know who you were. Yeah. I don't follow these things. And for some reason, you were doing an update at lunchtime. And for some reason, it popped up on my phone. And I thought, oh, I saw, I saw her in the courtroom. So I thought, well, I'm going to listen to it because I saw that it wasn't very long. I thought, well, I'm just going to listen to this. And let's see. let's you know unfortunately there's two sides the people in that courtroom there were two sides for the most part for the prosecution or the defense there was it yeah you know um and so when i listened to your update i thought oh wow this this is nice you were you were doing nothing but

given the facts you know the facts as what the facts happened And I thought, this is great. This is somebody just giving the truth, not twisted, not biased, just telling the truth. And that's why I came up to you and said, thanks, because that's all we can ask for, is that somebody just tell the truth. If people weren't so putting it to one side or the other, maybe more people would listen and get the truth out of it. this because there were so many of them that would go out and do their updates.

And I would think, are we sitting in the same courtroom? Are we hearing the same things? No, granted, I will admit, of course, I'm, I'm rooting for the prosecution, but I still try to pride myself on listening to the evidence and being open-minded. Yeah, and when you told me, you didn't say, hey, I'm rooting for the prosecution. prosecution. You didn't say, I believe that Richard Allen is guilty. You did. You came out to me and said, thank you for sharing facts. We need more facts out there. Keep sharing the facts. And that's what you said to me. And yeah, I tried. And you've said that since. And you've said that in your victim impact

statements, as has many people, like just, I think what you saw were so many people not sharing In fact, I remember after when we were able to talk after the conviction, I think it was maybe even at the sentencing, you said, all I ever wanted, like, you just want truth out there. And you felt sometimes it was kind of, you said that it felt sometimes that people weren't in the same courtroom as you. No. No. When you listen to what people were reporting, you, I sat there and I thought, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, could not believe such different stories were coming out of the same room. I couldn't believe it. I know. And it was like, and some of the stuff, they would just absolutely, totally ignore.

And I understand people look at things different somewhat. But boy, that's beyond my comprehension. What came out of there. So, like I said, I can't imagine how you kept your composure. You are an incredible woman just to have been able, I would have been, like I said, just screaming in there. So upset. Part of it, you're kind of afraid of the judge. Holy cow. I mean, she, she was pretty stern and I wasn't getting kicked out of there. So I was going to follow whatever she said.

That is true. Judge Gull ruled her courtroom, didn't she? I was, yes, it was, it was very clear that it was a privilege to be in judge Gull's courtroom and we did our best. Yeah, there were a couple of days. I almost didn't make it. But yeah. And you, I also want to point out, you know, we were all camping out. And we'll get back to, you know, evidence. And but, you know, there were times we were camping out late at night. And like I said, some of us were for the prosecution, some of us were for the defense and other people were just there to report the facts. There was a variety of people, podcasters, reporters,

YouTubers out spending the night in front of the courthouse. And your family would come and you would bring us treats and meals no matter who we were. And I just want to say that was when I knew what incredible people you really are through and through in this tragedy doing that. I just want to say thank you. I am so beyond touched still. I'll be honest, I felt so sorry for you guys. Boy, if we could have set up a tent or something we would have. I, I just, and I couldn't believe how many people stayed out there. It was cold.

And we just felt that we needed to do whatever we could. Because a lot of those people that were setting out there were the people that helped keep the story out there. before there was an arrest. They kept the story alive. They helped keep the pressure on law enforcement and whoever to get this solved. So these people have stood by Abby and Libby all this time. So you deserve us to do what we can for you. Well, thank you.

It was an act of service that I will never forget from where your family was coming from. Becky, what else do you want to share? If you could share one thing today, we just want to listen to you after you've been, you haven't had a voice in so long. You're, you know, what is it you want to share today the most? Let me read some of my notes. Can I do that? Please.

I do want to thank the jury. They had the hardest job in the world. They had to sit there and listen to all that evidence, see photos, videos, both sides. That was very, very hard. And I'm sure every one of them walked away a bit changed. And they amazed me at the questions, the questions that they asked. You don't know how many times we were sitting there and it's like, wow. that's a good question.

I wish I'd have thought of that. I'd have never thought of it. So they put their hearts and souls into it. And I think they came to their verdict with the facts. And they showed that our justice system works. So I want to thank them. And I guess I didn't think about doing that during the impact statement. Mike took care of that.

And Judge Gall, I, you know, there were so many times I felt sorry for her because there was so much pressure on her. And there were times that I'm sure she could have said, I don't need this. But she was one strong woman. And whether you love her, you hate her, you got to admit she, she did a great job. Yes. You know, she stood up. She stood up to a lot, a lot of backlash. Gosh.

She did. My respect grew through her through the trial. Yeah, I was frustrated with some transparency at first, and then as I week in, week out, I slowly started to understand. And I have a lot of respect for her. Yes. I am. And I, you know, I know when you have a trial and you have, you've got a defense side and you have a, you have a, you have a, you have a, you have a, you have a, you have a, you have a. prosecution side. You've got two sides. And the one thing that I really come to feel through all of this

is in a way, I mean, they may not feel it personally, but it's almost like a game. And who's going to win this game? And you do, and you put out there whatever you have to so that your side wins. but I sure wish that some would learn that there's a limit, there's a line that you don't cross. You don't cross it because there are victims there. And you don't try to win your case at the expense of the victims. I wish people would learn that because I felt, like they didn't care what they did to Abby and Libby to win. And that's not right.

I agree with you. That was the first time I heard. Go ahead. I said, I don't know that there's a fix for it. I mean, maybe we can ask John. I don't know either. It was the most upsetting thing for me to see your family's tragedy become what you just described and seeing Abby and Libby is sort of in the backdrop of this sort of,

I agree, like team sport almost or just, it was, I've never honestly seen anything like it. And I think that's where my heart breaks the most for your families and what you've gone through is making it, you know, it wasn't necessarily just about Abby and Libby every day. And I still don't know if it is with, people still arguing this case, it's confusing to me.

But John, I mean, you saw it too, John. You're the psychologist in the room, John. So I'll be out here. I mean, you know, I wasn't there, but Lauren was communicating with me every day. So, but it felt surreal

to me because it's the first time we've ever really been involved in a case in this, you know, this amount of depth where it appeared or it felt like many, many people were pro-defendant and not pro-victim. And so we're typically, you know, we're a pro-victum channel. You know, we advocate for victims. We advocate for justice, right?

And it was just, it was unusual to be in a situation where they were particularly. train Richard Allen as the hero. And the victim. And the victim. Right. And the victim. And the real victims were in some ways overlooked. And it was, to us, it was shocking. Yeah. I agree.

I agree. Throughout that whole thing, sitting there, it was all about him being victimized. And it's almost like that, that's what the trial was about. That's what the trial was about, him being victimized. You know, 100% victimized being, you know, his behavior, you know, how hard, you know, it is to be behind bars, whether jail or prison, the way he was treated by guards, the way, even though we saw testimony after testimony, I mean, tell me if I'm wrong, when you sat through the trial, you saw testimony after testimony about. how he was treated better than most any one there. But yes, the entire trial was about him being a victim. That was his defense.

You know, it wasn't not communism. It wasn't Ron Logan. It wasn't another suspect. It wasn't even the van. It was about him being a victim. It was about people feeling sorry for him. And that was Rosie's closing statement, his very last words. if you believe that it's okay to treat somebody this way, you know?

Basically, when he had those pictures up there, it was, I don't know. And, you know, I don't know. Just like now, you know, they're out there, this new guy that's got his name out there, you know, oh, I believe, you know, the Baldwin's out there, I believe what he's saying. Well, it's like he's changed his story a couple of times just since all these filings started coming out.

He, at first it was Ron Logan did it. And then a filing or so later, it was Ron Logan and Kagan Klein did it. And it's like, then it was oldenism. I know, it just changes. Just pick one. Right.

Now it's back to Ron. Logan, right, to some degree. I mean... Well, now it's Ron Logan and Kegin Klein. He's saying that the two of them did it together. I don't know. I can't keep up. I know.

Well, I think that's what they do on purpose. They throw spaghetti at the walls to see what sticks and confuse people. And to have people look at everyone except for Abby and Libby in the person that was at the bridge that day. Yes. Yes. And, you know, I guess, I guess, you know, why did they just never say what he did? What was his alibi? I thought he was up the bridge.

Yeah. But what was he never have they said, okay, he looked, he was on the platform and looked at fish. But then, then what? That was before the girls got there. On the timeframe that Betsy Blair saw him before she saw the girls. so he was there looking at fish what did you do after that during the time you were there nothing absolutely has ever been said there is no alibi for him except that he was at the crime scene but yeah he he was there don't know what he was where he was and then like they sat

and even the defense brought it up themselves when they brought some of the other witnesses in or like Dan McCain that he was there shortly after and all these other people they brought in that was there later and they said that the you know prosecution didn't bring them in well yeah they were there shortly after not a one of them saw him where was he right and not only that he he acknowledged that he was wearing the exact same outfit as bridge guy right so i mean not only does he not have an alibi but he's saying he looks like and wore the same clothes as bridge guy well and he didn't deny his bridge guy when they asked him with that photo are is this you his answer wasn't no it was well if the girls took that photo it's not because i didn't

see them it wasn't that's not me it wasn't his answer was it no his answer was not oh that's not me. It was, well, it depends. If the girls took it, I didn't, I didn't see the girls. But then, you know, his answer when they asked, is this you in this picture? Was it depends? Really? I mean, that's why it. No, when me. Yeah. And I saw that video of it, too. That wasn't just like a testimony either. That was video of him being asked. Yes. Yes. I, I know. It's, that's what I don't understand on people not look. I guess I just don't understand why they don't look at it all. You know, why is everybody so close-minded?

And John, I actually genuinely want to ask John now, because trust me, John was my sounding board throughout this trial. You know, on those days where I couldn't handle it anymore, I said, jump on. Why? Like, why, John? Sorry, we're not interviewing you, but we are. So, John.

Well, as you know, Lauren, we're working on a podcast series now that really delves into that question really deeply. But the simple answer, I guess the most simplistic answer I could give would be there's a psychologist who he's now deceased, but he did a lot of research on belief. And he used to always say, you know, the normal. The normal cliche is that seen is believing, right? That we look at evidence and we form our beliefs based on that. But he always said that's wrong. He always said that believing is seen, that we come in with preconceptions about something. We want to believe something is true.

And then we distort the evidence to fit our beliefs. And I think you have a lot of that because the perception of Richard Allen is that he's being persecuted by the state, unfilts. fairly, right? He's sort of the little guy that doesn't, that he's losing his rights, he's losing his freedom because the state is overreaching. And so I think that's what, that's what, that appears to be something that resonates with a lot of people that come in with the belief that somebody like Richard Allen couldn't have done it because he doesn't look like a murderer because he was this pharmacy tech at CVS

who doesn't commit murder, right? Like he's small, as you pointed out, he's not a big guy. People are basing their judgments on stereotypes of what they think a murderer looks like, and they're developing this belief that he doesn't look like a murderer, so he couldn't be a murderer. And then they're distorting the evidence to fit that narrative. In fact, Lauren and I were, we saw a post by a former FBI agent a few weeks ago that basically said exactly that. Well, he worked at CVS.

He's not a big guy. Does he look like a murderer? Right. The person said this. And Laura and I were like, you're missing the point. Yeah. Yes. You know, that's one of the things.

Every single time, if you watch the news, whenever there's a murder, they always interview the neighbors and the people down the road or whatever. And every single interview, the people say, oh, they were a nice person. They were quiet. I would have never expected to put out. That's what you hear. Every single time, so why would this be different? Every single time. Every single time.

I know. Why is it different? But I think it's a version of that. You know, the whole he wasn't big enough to move the body. Like all of that is related to the people having this stereotype of this pharmacy tech, this, you know, this meek, passive pharmacy tech at CVS who couldn't have done this because he was such a nice guy, he was so quiet, right? And, but they're really, as you point out,

they're really creating this stereotype of how they want this to look. And then they're throwing in this idea, because he doesn't look like a murderer, then the state must be persecuting him unfairly. And if they can do it to him, they can do it to me, right? You bring in all these conspiratorial thoughts and ideas about how the state is intentionally going after the little guy. So you have this stereotype that people see and then you layer it with this whole conspiracy mindset. And that's how you get there.

And so the evidence doesn't really matter because they've already made up their minds. And that pity play is strong, too. You know the, so the, you know, the, the, the, the, the, the Bechia, you said, everyone felt sorry for him. He was the victim. There's, there's a book called the sociopath next door. It's by Dr. Martha Stout. She teaches us what to look for in people who are, you know, unscrupulous or, uh, antisocial or sociopath. People that are sociopaths. And she's, she actually states here, I look this up as John was talking. Um, when people ask, me who not to trust. The answer I give them usually surprises people because the natural expectation is that I'm going to describe some sinister sounding detail of behavior or some body language that gives away that someone is a sociopath or a bad person. But instead, I take people back by telling them that it's none of those things. Rather, the best clue of all is pity play. The most reliable sign, the most universal behavior of unscrupulous people is

not directed at our fearfulness. It is an appeal to our sympathy. So in other words, what John, you're saying too, like, you can't know whether or not, you know, yeah, you hear that again and again, every Dateline episode. Oh, he was just the greatest person. And, you know, everybody's sitting here feeling sorry for Richard Allen. If everybody is feeling sorry for someone and they're not the victim of the crime, you might want to ask why, you know? But, but, yeah, I, I, I, I, I, agree with that except I would add I think there's there's an interesting caveat there which is which they makes this more complicated and that is is Richard Allen the one invoking the pity play or is the defense yeah right that's where that's where this gets

complicated because then you have to ask well if the defense is doing it what does it say about them maybe this isn't Richard Allen maybe this is more than Richard right it's because there's a part of me that believes if Richard Allen was left to his own, you know, if Richard Allen was autonomous and didn't have a defense team and was left to his own devices, I think in a way, Richard Allen wants to tell the truth. He did tell the truth. He made a number of confessions.

Like the irony here is I think Richard Allen is a bigger truth teller than anybody on his defense team. So what you're saying is look at the defense? I'm saying if you look at a pity play here, look at who's creating. that pity play. And what does that say about them? Yes, I've never seen a defense team like this. I've never seen a defense team continue to fight their case after trial. And not fight their case in appeals,

fight their case in public perception, fight their case just to fight it in front of YouTubers for no reason that's going to be an appeals reason. What are they doing? I've never seen this. They're still trying this case. They're still trying this case publicly, even though there's been a conviction.

They will not accept defeat. They will not accept the facts, right? That's another thing that's so unusual about this case. Like it's normally by now the defense would be like, okay, you know, we gave it our best shot. We lost. The evidence was overwhelming. The jury, you know, the jury has the final say, right?

Not here. These guys are getting on every change. channel they can get on and making their argument that he's innocent. Except for hidden true crime. We did that. Except for us. Yeah, they don't seem to have, they don't seem too motivated to come on our show. I'm sorry about that.

They should. You know, they should. I would listen to them. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Maybe they could explain some of the questions to us. You know.

I just feel like they are often victims, it seems. I'm going to say it. Sorry, I just said it. Sorry, we're here to listen to you, but I'll just say that. Sometimes I feel like the defense team interviews as also the victims in this case. I agree. I agree with you on that. I agree.

That's all I'm going to say on that. I think that victim card has been played an awful lot, quarter through. and you know and so many people are going on how you know they pin this on Richard Allen that this wasn't B but you know you think about it there were several other suspects persons of interest whatever you want to call him you know Ron Logan you they investigated the crap out of him you had an FBI woman that that kind of thought it was him but they could never find the evidence. Never. Exactly.

And they searched his home, right? They searched his home. They searched his property, his sheds. Nothing. They didn't find, they didn't find a single piece of evidence connecting him to the crime. And obviously that's one of the reasons they didn't charge him. Right. And then Kagan Klein, holy cow. I mean, they searched that river. They investigated him. I mean, they were after him a lot. They tried very hard to find a connection there. So, but there was nothing ever there that they could charge him with. So why, you know, they could have, if they just wanted

somebody to take the fall, they could have picked any of these, not wait for somebody here, you know, seven years, five years down the road, you know. So it doesn't, make sense that they would just pick Richard Allen, you know? Sometimes I do get frustrated because there was that tip that got lost of him. You know, we have sat and talked and like, oh my gosh, if they would have had, you know, if that, if that would have been run in the beginning, this would have all been over with in a couple of months. We wouldn't have lived this for all these years, it wouldn't have become as big as what it is and all of this stuff. You know, that gets frustrating, you know, but it happened.

And I'm, I guess I'm a believer and God's got a plan or something. I'm still trying to figure this plan out that, I, you know, so I don't know. Were we supposed to go through all this? I don't know. But at least in his plan, the guy was caught. It's okay to be frustrated as well as grateful they got them in the end. I understand being frustrated. You know, it was frustrating for the public.

We were all watching from afar. I remember the day it happened. I'll never forget the day. and that we heard about Abby and Libby and when I learned that two little girls have been murdered and I can't imagine waiting for so long I was following from the West Coast I was following every lead, every suspect

and an absolute shock of course when they made an arrest and it was nobody we'd heard of. Can I ask what, were you made aware that there was going to be an arrest? Can you take us back to that investigation? For so many years, you didn't have any answers. What was it like just going through the beginning of the investigation, those years waiting for an arrest?

You kind of get used to it and you learn patience. I'm not a patient person and I had to learn a lot of patience. But I think the thing that helped us the most was, we went to crime con. I guess I can't say enough good about that, especially for victims' families, because you talk to so many people that are walking the same walk and they understand.

And you talk to all these families that have waited, like the Golden State Killers families, what was it, 30 years? So when you talked to all these other people, families that are walking the same walk, you realize that it doesn't do you any good to let it eat you up. And you have to put your faith in law enforcement that they will find this killer eventually. It's the hope. And if you don't have that hope, you have nothing.

And that could be a very dark place. Did you know beforehand that they were about to make an arrest that they had new lead? Not. We found out. When they arrested Richard Allen is what I'm referring to when they made that arrest. We didn't know about it, but a couple of days prior they actually had already picked him up. They had already put him, they hadn't charged him yet.

They called us in, I think it was a Wednesday night and said, we want you to know that. There have been some developments and we have somebody in custody. That was totally out of the blue for us. We're like, what? And they said we can't tell you his name, but just know that we having in custody. We will go Friday for formal charges and we will let you know then. So there we were. Of course, my daughter and I are going through trying to, you know, going on that vine or my case and all, you know, trying to figure out who's in jail, who's, who's here, who's this, who could we, you know.

So we're spending on, that was, that was probably the worst 24 hours was that we knew there was somebody there. They did tell us it was somebody local, but you don't know. And it's like, oh my gosh, you know. So on Friday morning, we're sitting here waiting because they told us they would call us and tell us who it was as soon as they were done. So I don't know how many times I messaged Jerry Holman. Are you out of court yet? You know, but well, we ended up getting a phone call from one of the news stations asking if we knew this person. I mean, the news stations knew before they were still in court.

Wow. So we knew before they got out of court who it was. Wow. And that was, that was, whoa, you know. And then they, of course, they made that, they had that press conference, I think, then was it Monday. That was Monday. That was Friday was when they went to court, so it must have been Monday. But, yeah, that was a.

That was a rough couple. That was a rough couple of days. Because then you're thinking, oh, my gosh, who was? If somebody local, who here would do something like that, you know? So now you got all kinds of stuff going through. And did you recognize him? Because he was local. He worked at CVS.

We did. And a lot of people say, oh, I should have seen him a lot. We should have seen him. But we didn't. My husband works for Caterpillar, and they have a contract with the pharmacy. in Lafayette. So we get all of our medicines and all that at Walmart. I could probably count on one hand how many times a year I went into CVS. It was for, you know, wedding cards, graduation cards, birthday cards, something like that. It's the only time I went in there. I don't know that I ever saw him

because I would go in the evenings. And I think he worked days. So I don't know. I did not know him. the name did not ring a bell but my daughter the first thing she said when she saw the picture of him she said oh my god i know who he is and he's the one that developed the photos for the funeral okay that's how that's how you figured that out yeah and they would go in there they had seen him and didn't think anything about it. Wow, but they remembered him developing Abby and Libby's photos for their memorial. Yes. That was mentioned in your victim impact statement.

I cannot imagine, cannot imagine understanding that he did that. Yes. Yes. And so it was, I have had some people that have worked with him. come up to me later and apologized to me and said that there were times that he would make comments and stuff. They thought it was a little creepy, you know, but they never put the dots together and they apologized over and over and over. Oh my gosh, I should have figured it out. But we don't. You know what I'm saying? You don't want to think the money man is in your own town.

you don't want to think that you don't want to think that anybody here so you're looking out you're looking outwards way more than what you are locally what were the stories that you've heard now can you share because i have i've heard some stories about richard owl now have you heard some concerning stories just that some of the things that he would ask um i can't i can't really tell without giving away who this person is. So I won't do that. But she realized later, oh, my gosh, now I understand why he was asking the questions he was. So it made sense to her later. It made sense.

So I, like I said, I don't know that I ever ran into him. I don't know. which is surprising in a small town. He didn't spend his time at sporting events all the time. You know, that's where we spend our life. It was because Libby was in every sport out there just about. You know, there was only about three weeks a year that she wasn't in a sport. We got about a three week break every year.

And that was it. So. she was quite the athlete. Yep. She won't, well, you know, her,

her personality was she wanted to try everything. Yeah. And, um, she loved doing things. Things. She loves softball, you know,

she loves swimming. And she had played soccer since she was four years old. So she, she, she just volleyball. She liked, volleyball. But, you know, I think part of the reason she was in all the sports is just because of all the social activity with it. You got to be with your friends all the time, you know?

Yeah. And she was always, she was always wanting to do something with her friends or go here, go there, do something, you know, that was, that was her life. So, and I'm glad, you know, I'm glad we got to do as many things as what we did. She, she got to experience a lot at her young age, good things. And I'm glad we were able to do those things so that she, I feel like she at least had a full life, if not a long one. Thank you for sharing a bit about her. Actually, I was going to ask you because, like I said, for, you know, the weeks long trial, all we did is learn about Richard Allen. And I do want to focus on who Libby, you know, was. And she lived with you.

You took care of her. And I've, she was fun loving. She was a friend. She was an athlete. Yeah. What do you, what do you miss the most? And I'm sorry to ask that. But how would you want her to be remembered or what do you want us to know about her?

I could go on for days and days. that she was just a she was a good person and and I believe that I believe that shows even now because I feel even through all of this her and Abby have touched a lot of lives

just in conversations about the girls I've had several people come up to me and say I feel I'm a better person for knowing about Abby and Libby and knowing, listening to the things that they did during the time they were here. And Libby was very vocal. She stood up for the underdog.

She hated, as a matter of fact, I may have shared it. She wrote a paper about the world. It would be nice if the world could change and the way they look at people because of their body. their size or their weight or if they weren't as pretty as what society thinks they should be that, you know, she said it would be good for the world to change the way they look at this stuff. So, I mean, I can share papers that she has done and show you the type of person she was. And as people have come to, a lot of people feel that they know her, even though they never met her. And they have said, I feel like I'm a better person because there's times I stopped to think what would Libby have done. Or they've said, I know I treat people better than what I used to because I think about what that young girl said.

And it made me stop and realize, oh, maybe I could be a better person. So if she can touch us many people with this tragedy, what could she have done had she lived? And that's what I missed most are the possibilities, you know. And the fact, my little great-granddaughter, who was a blessing we didn't know we needed, she's a year and a half now. Kelsey's daughter, right, Kelsey? And, you know, we're on Baby Watch right now for baby number two. A big congrats to Kelsey out there.

as a matter of last night I thought I was going to have to call you and say we're off because she messaged me and she said I'm having some pains and she's due in less than two weeks oh boy

yeah so so we're on we're on baby watch and and Libby was so good with kids Libby loved kids and she had a knack with them

and the kids always gravitated to her little ones and to know that these little girls she's having another little girl you'll never know their Aunt Libby you know that's that's hard that that's the stuff that and I'd be selfish and say that

I miss her in my life you know she was wise beyond her years she truly was that she looked at she looked at life differently than a lot of people her age a lot of people our age

she just looked at life differently just like getting just like getting that video getting the video right solving the crime yeah I mean yeah I don't know that I would have thought to do that no she she knew right away too

it was like as it was happening She was like, now or never. Yeah. You know? Yes. Well, but, you know, I have to think that some of that was because she loved true, she loved not true crime, not true crime because it wasn't true crime. She loved crime shows. And we would, we would get a bowl of popcorn and we'd all jump in bed and cover up on the nights that they had because we would record them.

So we didn't have to do the advertisements. You know, we could go right through. Right. We would binge watch all of these shows that we would record for the week. And we'd sit there and watch the show and eat our popcorn. That was what we did. And she just loved it. And that's like because she was in advanced classes.

And she was invited. They had what they called super Saturdays at Purdue College, right? Right. Wow. That's a beautiful college. But anyway, they had what they called super Saturdays. and they invited kids that were in advanced classes and stuff. And she was invited to go to those for, well, until they stopped doing them.

And she had done a couple of different classes there. And she came home, it was getting ready to do these classes. And she was looking over what she was going to do. And she started to take a computer class. And I said, Libby, why do that? Because you're going to do that in school. Why not go for something? and you're not going to have in school.

So they had this one class and it was called mini-med. And she said, I think I'll do that. She loved it. They dissected an eyeball, a cow eye. They dissected different things, you know. I hated that. She loved it. She loved it.

And then when we went to Florida that year, there was a jellyfish out on the beach. And there she is. She's out there trying to dissect this jellyfish. But she wanted to learn about that stuff. Yeah, anatomy. Yeah. And she sat.

I'm either, and she wanted to go into some kind of forensics or some of that. And she said, I mean, I want to help. I want to help those. There was a show that she really liked, that there was a woman that had been a surgeon. And she was in a wreck and she couldn't do surgery anymore. so she did the autopsies and stuff. And she loved that show. And she said, that's what I want to do.

I want to do those and help police solve crimes. But then my mom lived with us in her final days. And she was here on hospice. And she had COPD. And the girls helped take care of her until the end. And then she kind of changed a little bit. She said, I either want to solve crimes or find cures. So she knew that whatever it is she was going to do,

she wanted to do something to help people. She's going to help. And she was going to help. As you say, the underdogs, and she was going to help. That was a good help. Yeah. And I love her writing and her belief that we should not be judged by our bodies or what we look at on the outside.

that really touched me too. I just want to say she was an amazing girl. She was. She was. So, but out of all of this, I just ask people that are out there to don't be so judgmental and listen to one side of the story because there's a lot more than what people are hearing. I hope all the transcripts finally come out and and and that people can through all the hearings and all of it, not just the trial, but all of it. They need to understand why Judge Gall ruled the way she did against third party. If they would understand that, maybe they would understand a little bit more about her. and if the people understood just how hard some of these other suspects were investigated, they would understand why they weren't arrested.

Yeah. And why it came down to Richard Allen. And all these things that the lawyers today are saying is new evidence, it's not. It's not. They've had it all this time. that the people don't know that. They don't know what that was in that semi load full of stuff, you know?

That's what Nick said one time. If all of these files were in paper form, digital files were in paper form, it could probably fill up a semi. And I think even Baldwin said that in one of the trial or somewhere. Yeah, there's a lot of evidence there, but they had three lawyers and they had a lot of help. How many people walked in on the defense side every day? I mean, they had a whole entourage that sat up there, you know? How many people that said, I would have gladly helped, even if it was to sort, you know, they had a lot of help.

Yeah, they could have looked through a lot of that. And they listened to social media. they listened to people from social media. So they were telling them everything that was happening through all this time. Absolutely. They could have looked into every one of those. But they chose not to. And now they're saying it's all new evidence, things that were kept from them.

No, it wasn't kept from them. They chose not to bring them out because they knew there was nothing there. So why continue to do this? And the people need to really, they just really need to look a little closer. Yeah, there's so much that they don't know that's happened in the last, he said, eight years, two years, one year. A lot of people are critical of the police. Is there anything you want to help us understand or share when it comes to such divisiveness,

I think, online about law enforcement's work on this case? It wasn't what I experienced when I saw them testify. I saw mistakes, but I saw. men and women who cared but anything everyone that worked on that case we talked to them we saw them you could see it

you could hear it when we talked to them they had their hearts and soul in this and this was even before Richard Allen was caught they never lost hope they kept trudging on they ran down every lead they did everything and in the beginning

there were lots of mistakes There were mistakes, and they'll tell you that. But in the very beginning, it was chaos. It was, you had everybody coming in wanting to help. And you had stuff coming from every direction. And I think the best thing that ever happened was when they brought it all in to just a few people that could go back and go through and look through everything. And it took a long time.

I kind of understand how that lead got lost. You know, if you're handing it off, and that's what they said. You hand it off to somebody, they hand it off to somebody. I mean, it could get laid down. But they worked very hard. They knew that this case was in the spotlight. They knew every single thing that they did would be screwed. Now think about that. If you're doing your job and you know that everything you do is going to be scrutinized, are you really going to go outside the boundaries? No. You know. You know that could cost you the case. They're not going to take a chance of going outside of the law or outside and do anything that could have jeopardized this case. In the same way with with the treatment of, you know, they say that, you know, I

hear Baldwin and them say that they they couldn't see anywhere where Richard Allen wasn't safe in Carroll County. I'm here to tell you right now, you don't know how many people that walked up to me and said he's lucky that they moved him because I was going to get myself arrested to get put in there. I had several people tell me that. That man was not safe in Carroll County. There's no doubt in my mind they did the right thing moving him. And they tried to keep him as safe as they could. And I think they, they sent him to the county next to us. And at that time, it was like a powder cake around here, you know? They needed to get him away from here. They needed to.

Yeah. And I feel like they tried to give him the best treatment they could. They knew, even up in DOC, they knew they needed to keep him separated for his own safety. They needed to do that. So they let him, you know, they offered him TV. He had a tablet. He could make all the phone calls in the world that he wanted. He could talk.

He could talk. He was not in solitaire. Solitaire, you don't get anything. and you don't talk to anybody. I feel that they did the best they could with what they had for him. And, you know, there was a, he wasn't convicted, but there was enough there that he was charged. So, you know, and I, and just the timing of his going downhill

and everything else all fed a certain narrative also, You know, it all fit a narrative. Yeah. And it's, and then they, you know, according to the defense, he was going to be okay once he could get put into a jail or something. But then they put him in Cass County jail and they had problems with him too. Right. Right. So what difference did it make?

it didn't I agree there were problems he became very violent there in Cass County yes that's where the threats happened

they threatened he threatened guards and law enforcement there that he was going to yes so you know they they they carried on

carried on and then when they finally got what they wanted it did it didn't make a difference you know I guess he's been moved now

And I don't know if it's truth or not. Just like, you know, you hear the scuttle in social media and stuff. I've heard that he's been causing problems in prison. So, you know, obviously he wasn't that much of a victim. Yeah, I actually think just to chime in on that issue, I think some of the most damning evidence was, not presented at trial and it had to do with him being aggressive and threatening guards and inmates. They didn't, you know, Judge Gold did not allow that in.

And I think that would have cemented if the jury had any doubts. Obviously they didn't, but that evidence of him being aggressive and violent would have been so damning. Right. And the jury didn't get to see it. Right. And another thing on that, you know, they, they, the defense was allowed to show video of how horrible he was treated, right? But what I was told is some of those when they came in to take him from one place to another, the guards were in in gear, spit gear or whatever. Spit gear.

So if you spit, in other words. So they were, they, they had to be suited up to move him. Well, they showed them moving him, but they don't show why did those guards have to be all suited up? Right. They only showed you little clips and several clips of him being treated horrible, but they don't bother to show you the other parts. You know what I'm saying? Right.

So they only show one side there again was for the sympathy. You know, and I thought that was kind of, you want to go on bias here. You know, they were allowed to only show bits and pieces of these videos. But the prosecution had to show the whole phone conversation when there was phone conversations with with his wife and his mom and them. And that was, you know, that had to be fair so that they could hear the whole thing and get the context. But they didn't give you the context to those videos.

Right. I know. They didn't. Well, it didn't seem to make a difference for the jury either, you know. Right. And it makes sense when when someone behind bars is being treated medically, there are also protocols, it's always a little shocking when you have never spent time behind bars to see that they have to be cuffed and they have to be restrained, you know, and I didn't see the videos.

So, you know, I can only assume what they saw. But, right, I didn't see the videos either, but I heard. Right. And, and then, you know, they made it look that it was horrible that he had that bag over his face that time. And that was a spitbag. That's because, but they don't, tell you. They show it, but they don't tell you. He was spitting at them, so we put that on. On him. But they don't, they don't tell you why

there's a bag on his head. So there again, context. Right. So, and I know I've kind of jumbled and gone all around as we're going all around. That's okay. That's what we should do.

I have a couple more questions. Is that okay? I mean, these are like just honestly my questions, my human interest, my curiosity, because I don't know what it would like to experience what you have experienced. I cannot imagine. And I don't know how you sat in that courtroom every day looking at that man who you believed murdered Libby and Abby. And I just want to ask how you how did you do that?

well first off we owed it to Abby and Libby to be there every day and to face whatever we had to face and to look at him and to let him know

that we knew what he did and that we weren't back and down from him and oh yeah there were there were times that you would You sit here and think, I could jump that, I could jump that railing, you know. You think, you think these horrible, horrible thoughts, but that wouldn't have done any good

for anybody, especially us. That would have gotten us kicked out. We wouldn't have been there for the girls. We wouldn't have, you know. So you have to, you have to, you have to pick. And you have to choose what you feel is important. And making him face us every day was important. There were many stare downs.

I'll be honest, between him and different family members. You know, but nobody was going to back down. He knew what he did. That's interesting about the stair downs. You know, you guys did sit more on the side. You know, I had to sit in the center. I think what I'm trying to say is I think you were able to see his face more than I could. I would see his face when he turned when it was a good angle.

I think that where you were sitting and family hours were sitting, perhaps you saw his face even more than I did. You talk about stare-downs. Was there anything else you noticed about him throughout the trial? any moments and did you ever see your eye rolling too that's another question but judge yes yes as a matter of fact he did that when I was up given my impact statement really he rolled his eyes at you yes because when I was talking about him he went wow like so yes I mean he he did that when I was up there I could see at times from where I was those guards were behind him and they're they were tall.

So a lot of times you had to kind of look in between, but he would look over because Jerry sat like by him kind of over at the prosecution side. And there were many times that he would look, look over there towards the prosecution and then we would see him. But most of the times when it would be the eye contact would be like before, before the session would be in and he'd be standing there and he had turned around or as we came in or whatever. He would sit down and he'd be looking around.

So that's when most of the time it wasn't during trial because he was up there. I don't know, writing or whatever he was doing up there. Go ahead, John. I was going to say on this issue, it's interesting because in a few of his confessions, he said that he wanted to apologize to Abby's family, but not you guys. not Libby. And so that struck me as being peculiar that in some ways, you know,

he had this, it seemed like he had this animosity in particular directed towards Libby. And do you have any thoughts about that? No. No. The only thing I can think of maybe, I mean, Libby was,

she was, hurt more. I don't quite know how to afford that. I saw. She was hurt a lot. There was more damage on her.

Yes. And from what the one officer said, she was moving. So maybe she tried to get away. maybe you know

she had said something to him maybe it was harder to get her to go down I yeah I don't know when you look at the crime scene photos it's obvious that Libby took a lot and

and through all this our family's been very vocal you know what I'm saying were a much more vocal family than Abby's family. And we've let it be known. We weren't going to stop until you're out there. We will hunt you. We will hunt you.

And maybe he didn't like that. I don't know. I don't care that he doesn't like me. I don't particularly care for him either. But, you know. and I don't know that even if he did want truly, truly in his heart wanted to apologize, I don't know if I would be ready to hear that.

That would never be good enough. You know what I'm saying? That doesn't bring her back. That's no, I don't know. That's fair. I would have more respect for the man if he would just stand up and take accountability, you know? Yeah.

There was a moment, you know, and I don't even know, it was, there was just, it was so emotional in there, so many levels. But there were times where I noticed you looking at Kathy Allen, I think a couple times I noticed. Um, is that hard? Do you, was there anything that you were thinking during that verdict or anything when it, You know, I understand. Part of me, you know, I've tried to put myself in their shoes. And a part of me understands his mother loves him. That's her son.

Kathy loves him. That's her husband. And she's been with him for a long time. And just like people in the community say, oh, I could never imagine him. doing that. I can understand her not wanting to accept that. But what I can't understand is like on those phone calls that she would just hang up. Instead, if it were me, whether I love you or not, I would talk to him.

If he's saying that, I wouldn't just say no. No. I would want to know. You can't tell me there's not a person in this world that wouldn't at least have an inkling of doubt. You know what I'm saying? Especially when she knows that those were clothes exactly like what her husband had on.

She knew he was out there. She knew he was at the bridge. You know, he's trying to tell her. He did it. I mean He didn't even lie about the bridge He had lied and said I was there but not on the bridge

And then she found out he was on the bridge Yeah Yeah you know what I'm glad you said that I'm glad Was you in there? Did you see that clip? Yeah I saw that clip

Yeah Did you tell me you're on the bridge You said you didn't go to the bridge You said you didn't go to the bridge I was on the bridge Um I made that comment to somebody one day And there's been some people out there

saying that I did not tell the truth that Kathy said you said you didn't cross the bridge and I know I heard her say to him no I wasn't on the bridge that day I don't know I'll have to go back and look at my notes but that's off the top of my head right there so I mean I'll say that's how I remember it if I'm wrong okay but I swear

That's what she said to him. You said you weren't on the bridge because somebody asked me what was an aha moment. And my aha moment was when I was listening to that. And she said to him, she said, but you said you went on the bridge that day. I swear, that's what I heard. And that's when it hit me. He lied to her. That's what I got to.

That was my memory. He lied to her. He lied to her about where he was my aha. He had lied to her. So if you're sitting here and you're thinking, okay, he lied to me. What else did he lie about that day? So I guess I don't understand the hanging up and the just refusing and not wanting to really know the truth and just talk to him. Yeah.

So I would go even further and say. In some ways, a normal response would be, well, if you did it, that's horrible. We should probably go to the detectives or whoever, the prosecution or the DA. And so you can take a plea deal. Right? That would be, that would be a norm. That's what happens with. So Chris Watts confessed to his father.

And his father said, that's really bad. You know, we've got to take responsibility for this. We're going to take a deal. And he took a deal. Rather than drag everyone through the mud and through right through this really drawn out painful process. Yes. I understand, I understand, you know, I understand Becky that, right, I agree that it's his wife and his mother. Like, they don't want to see him in prison for the rest of his life.

I get that. But on the other hand, denial can be strong. Yeah. If he did it, he did it. What are the repercussions of that? But then I wish she would stop to think if he is guilty and we get him out. Do you really want somebody like that out on the street?

Right. So, you know, I've been fortunate that I've not ever been in this position, her position, you know, but I would. I'd sit there and I think, you know, if I believe her of all people could really get to the bottom of this. I agree. The two of them can stop all of this. I think she almost did. If you want my feelings, I think she listened to defense attorneys and they told her what to do.

And I think that perhaps maybe she could have or would have listened if there was it a defense team meddling in my opinion. Opinion. I do too. I believe they've been convinced that they can come out and they just need to hold tight. And if they were to come out, if he was to ever come out and admit, then he's lost to show. at freedom. So he has nothing to lose. He has everything to gain to continue the course.

Right. I have one more question. Do you have any unanswered questions? Like, do you feel that I know that there's no such thing as closure, so that's not what I'm asking, but do you feel like you've had all your questions answered about that horrendous day? that Libby lost her life? Or do you have things that you hope can be answered one day?

I've walked through that day so much. And then after the trial, you learn a lot more. You know, and it fills in the gaps of walking through that day. But my question will never be answered ever because nobody can ever give me an answer and even if Richard Allen would give the answer it wouldn't be an answer and that's why why would you feel compelled to kill two young girls why they didn't deserve to die so why would you do that but even if he told us why we would never understand it. It wouldn't change anything. And I don't know that I would ever understand the answer.

So that's, you know, and I think every victim's family always wonders why. That's a common, that's a common, because there is no answer to that. There's no answer for that one. Yeah. Thank you, Becky. out of curiosity do you now with all the public

speculation and the conspiracy theories I imagine that you would have just valued a private trial which it was but do you now wish that maybe it had been public or recorded or anything or what is your wish for how

or did you feel it was done I understand I understand her keeping it private per se. But because of the different stories that came out of the one room, in a way I wish it would have been recorded so that people could listen and judge for themselves. I do wish it would have been, even if it was just recorded and maybe released later or something. You know, I know there's transcripts. There will be transcript.

Those will be available. So I don't know what, I don't even know what all is available right now. But one day, the transcript, the whole transcript of the whole trial will be made available. But I don't know that reading it, we'll do it justice. You know what I mean? Yes. To have been in there.

I think that makes a difference. It really does because you can read something and understand it different than what it really came out. But I think they might understand at least a little better. Yeah. And that's what I'm waiting for. I'm having trust. I just trust that people will, when they get the chance we'll read it, maybe, maybe make their own mindset instead of just listening to one-sided information.

You know, and if they want to listen to one side, listen to it, but go to the other side and listen to it and compare. And then question, why the difference? You know what I'm saying? Right. Because they could come up with why, this doesn't make sense. This doesn't make sense. And maybe they could come up with their own. that's what they need to do.

Can I, you just remind me of one last question. Did you see the defense attorneys befriending YouTubers in the courtroom? Oh, certain YouTubers. I think they were befriended before court, before trial. I mean, when we were, well, was it the three-day trial? It might have been during that three-day trial.

trial. Several of their witnesses were YouTubers or people from Facebook. It's like their whole list. So I think here's

where I think the defense messed up. I think they listened to one side. You had a side that had like an agenda. And I think that that they listened to them without digging and getting the truth behind what they were saying.

They took them at word. They took them at their word. And they shouldn't have. And so I think they were, I think they were sniggered. I saw the defense team courting YouTubers. So, yeah. Yes. Yes.

And that was, they, I think you could see that in the Franks memo. some of that information you could see that in the Franks memo you could see that clear through that they used a lot of that so that worries me I am worried for the future of trials being tried in the court of YouTube I worry about that because yes there's a lot of misinformation half information you know um A lot of that stuff. And it is scary. And that's what I said. Is this the way of the future? And what does that do to trials?

What does that do to, you know? I mean, it cost a man his life. Fortunately, fortunately the jury was sequestered, but you have to wonder if the jury wasn't sequestered. how much of that could have influenced them. Yes, you know, I sit here, there was a time that I thought, how could anybody up there not know about this case? Because their local channel carries it.

But, you know, then again, I talk to people when I'm out and about and whatever that they may have heard about it, but they don't follow it. Oh, oh, I didn't know that, you know? So I guess because I'm in the middle of it all, I think it's bigger than what it is. You know what I'm saying? Broader, acknowledged. So now, if they hadn't been sequestered and if they'd have been able to watch TV and all the things that was going on during trial, I think. But they were in there. And everything that was going on during the trial, they saw it in there.

So I don't know that that would have made a difference per se. And if any of them followed it at all, they would have already seen all the other stuff. You know? So that's why I think they did such a good job because there's the potential that if somebody, want any of them followed at all, they may have known about the third party because it had been brought out. But obviously they didn't think enough of it to make a difference in trial. You were mentioning, I want to go back to that too, about something costing somebody his life. You're talking about the suicide, I believe.

But what were you going to say about that, your thoughts about what happened there? Well, that's because of YouTube. social media. It happened because of social media. The guy went in and took pictures of the photographs laying out on Andrew Baldwin's desk

that he left unattended and shared them with somebody that shared them with somebody else that shared them with YouTubers and And I believe that they thought that their tracks were covered, that it would never come back to them. And it did.

And I think the one guy, he was military. And I think after he realized what all happened and maybe there were other factors in his life, I don't know. Was that the straw that brought the camel's back? I don't know. but because the police came and questioned him about it, it became too much for him and he came to himself. Yeah. And that's, you know, that's something else.

Because that came out in one of the interviews with the defense team. And Brad Rosie come back on that and said, well, if you want to blame anybody for the, photo leaks, you should blame the prosecution. This was a recent interview. You know what I'm talking about. I know you're talking about. We could pull it on a YouTube channel.

Yes, he said, well, the state was asking for the public's help. Had they not been asking for the public's help, maybe the YouTubers and then wouldn't have been so involved and they wouldn't have stole those photos and they wouldn't have been released and he wouldn't have killed himself. Stole the photos

that were not secured out in the open on Andrew Baldwin's desk that he left there of your Libby and Abby in the most vulnerable horrendous thing. And in another one of their

interviews, Andrew Baldwin made the comment, yeah, I'm not even sure which time it was he took him. Meaning they were never secured. They were always just hanging out on Andrew Baldwin stuff. So does that not tell you that maybe he was in the habit of just leaving the information out when this particular person came? Or maybe this particular person would go into the room, into the war room. maybe he saw more than so.

But Baldwin said himself, he wasn't sure when it was, he took it. So that right there tells me he was in the habit of not securing the information anyway. So what else was he laxon? But it's the prosecution's fault

that Libby and Abby will forever be on the web for someone to try to find. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's, that's the sad part of it. is that when Kelsey's little girls get older and they hear us talk about Libby all the time

and they know that there was a trial and they may decide to look her up because the police tried so hard to get all these YouTubers to throw away the photos. But there were some that did not. They said they did, but they didn't. And there's just some that don't care. No, no. As a matter of fact, the week before trial, a week or so before trial, there was a guy that has the photos. And he was upset.

He was mad at Carroll County and he was mad at our family. And he said, I have the crime scene photos. All you got to do is message me. I'll give them to you. Do you know how many people in that line said, send in your message, send in a message, send in a message. I have, I can't begin to imagine how many people he shared those photos with just normal people. I mean, if that were your child, if that was their child, would they be so nonchalant about it? And then when this unfortunate circumstance occurs in Andy's office with Mitch Westerman, which was not a crime, it was, I mean, you can argue about whether or not Mitch committed a crime.

I'm fine, I'll give you that, whatever. whatever happened, it was a circumstance, it was unfortunate. This stuff, these pictures end up in the public. And then all of a sudden, you know, we're getting accused of, you know, destroying the victim's families or, you know, causing all this emotional distress or whatever terms you want to use because now this stuff's out in the public and there being, the Band-Aid is ripped off and they're being, you know, traumatized by us. I didn't invite those people to this parade, okay?

It wasn't us that invited the public to this case. It wasn't us that kept, you know, walking up to the podium and asking for help and, you know, tears coming down your eyes and asking the public to help. Going on crime con. Yeah, going to crime con. You know, I didn't ask for any of that. You know, they act like we don't have a right to be upset. Put the shoe on the other foot and see if you would, if they would be upset. And that's what I said that day.

If that were their child, would they steal? And when Rosie made the comment, I really don't care that they're out there. Would he make that comment if those were photos of his daughter out there? You know, that's where I'm saying his daughter naked and murdered. You know, that's what it was of your Libby. I just want to say that. Like, I don't want to beat around the bush here. I'll say it.

Like, that's what we're talking. about here to have them just frivolously laying on Baldwin's desk and now they're blaming the prosecution. As you say, someone lost his life over this too. I'm sorry. It just makes me so angry, so I just had to say it for this. I'm sorry. Thank you, Maddie.

It's not your guys' fault, you know? But it is the people's fault that didn't delete them. The people, when they were asked to. get rid of them, those that didn't get rid of them, you know? Well, there was one place, though, that they were found where it all stem from. And that was Andrew Baldwin's desk. Yeah. Yes. And he calls it an unfortunate event. Unfortunate circumstance occurs. Whatever happened, it was a circumstance, it was unfortunate. This stuff, these pictures end up in the public.

An unfortunate event. I'm sorry. That's what he calls it. So, you know, in one respect, them going out and doing their tours, it slowly comes out how they really feel and what kind of people they really are and how far they will go and how much they really feel. for the victims. Yeah, I agree.

You know, but there is a need for defense lawyers, you know, you got to have them. There is, and there's a need for good defense lawyers, and I admire good defense attorneys who do their job to make sure people aren't railroaded in this country, to make sure that people are heard, that everyone's voice is heard, that evidence is presented, that, you know, but this was... That the state carries their burden of proof. The state carries their burden of proof. We love defense attorneys, good defense attorneys.

So my question to you is, are these defense attorneys normal? Do you call it normal? I mean... Well, let's say this. when you say, when people say, and I'm talking for me and only me, John can give his opinion later, this is Lauren and only Lauren. If they're excuses, we're just doing our job, I would disagree strongly with that notion. I think that's almost gaslighting because what we're seeing is an absolute dismissal of empathy, of the crime, of victims, of manipulating public opinion even after the conviction manipulating Richard Allen after the conviction, you know, Andy Baldwin told us that himself of bizarre conspiracy theories.

I mean, I mean, maybe conspiracy theories are a part of a defense attorney's job to confuse the public. I'll give them that. I'll give them that. They did a great job confusing the public and maybe that can be part of their job. But I don't know if those other things are necessary to be part of their job. But I don't know how John feels. And I don't know if he wants to say.

I think that I agree with Becky. I think there are some lines that can be crossed. And for me, you know, it's one thing to put a spin on evidence that benefits your client. I get that. Like as long as it's somewhat reasonable or, right? Like, I mean, the judge plays a role in that, too, in terms of what evidence can get. admitted.

And ultimately, the jury has to interpret it. The jury has to decide whether that spin makes sense. But I think when you cross over into peer disinformation, then it becomes a problem. And when you take that disinformation and you put it out to, you find creators to put it out on social media, I think you're starting to cross a big line with that type of behavior. Right? Because now at that point, you're trying to. in public. You're trying the case, especially if a jury's not sequestered. And Lauren, you and I know a lot of cases where they're not sequestered. And so although the judge admonishes them or tells them not to pay attention to not to listen to podcast, not to watch TV, they do. They're human.

Right. Tell a juror to go, you know, sit at home with his family and not have one of his 12-year-old, you know, children show him his, you know, phone screen, right, if you're not sequestered. Right. I would call it almost impossible in this day and age with screens who are attached to everyone these days. Right, with a case that's picked everyone's curiosity for years, right, that's been on people's radar for years. Like, it, you know, it's like putting a mouth-watering, you know, chocolate. cupcake on the counter and telling, like with us, Lauren, like telling your seven-year-old not to touch it.

Well, and I want to find out something else, too, because you, some people might argue and say, well, we should trust the public to discern evidence, whether they're sequestered or not, whether they're seeing news or not. Trust them to look at the evidence. But I want to point out something else that is really important and really frightening when it comes to plain a case in public or allowing a case to be tried in public and that is a chilling effect.

If you have a juror or a jury that is looking at the evidence and even believes, you know what, I know this person is guilty, but they go online and they see the mobs and they see these, you know, people saying this person is innocent and I'm going to come with pitchforks

at these jurors and I'm going to videotape and we're going to find them. Do you think a jury, even if they think the evidence leans towards guilt, might not say that to protect themselves, or it's a chilling effect or think out of fear, say, you know what? I can't give the verdict I actually think because I am so afraid of the public's perception or my family's safety. So it's not even about evidence being played in the court of public opinion. opinion, it is this chilling effect and a fear that you can put on a jury if you allow the mobs out or if you let them see what's going on out there. It's frightening, you know, if their, you know, if their identities are ever, you know, found out, you know, the people that were

saying, go after them. Let's find them. That's scary, you know. I would be very scared in this day and age to be a juror on a highly publicized murder case these day and age, this day and age. Do you think that's why the jurors aren't talking? Yeah, and I respect it. And I think we should allow them that privacy. Yeah, I agree. I agree because, you know, the one that did come out, I mean, they tore her apart. They did. So if another one saw that, I mean, she wasn't, some of them totally tore her up and totally disrespected her.

So if I was another juror and I saw how she was treated, there's no way I would come out. Yeah. Why do I want to get, you know, get some of that? So, you know, they kind of shot themselves in the foot and the jurors coming out. Yeah. They want the jurors to come out. they're making it so that none of them dare. Yeah.

Yeah. Yes. And I don't blame them a bit. I thought, boy, they're crazy if they do. And yeah, I could,

unfortunately, there are some out there that I could see going after them. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and then you've got these people out here, you know,

like I said, but whether I agree or not with other people, everybody's entitled to their own opinion. you know and I saw there were some comments when Mike and I interviewed with our local TV channel how can they not have the same questions we do how can they not question this how can they think that he's guilty we're all entitled we're all entitled to our opinions if they totally believe he's innocent okay okay I totally believe he's guilty he's guilty he's guilty I was in there for every single hearing.

I saw it all. I saw the inside. I saw the outside. And I still, I made an informed choice. And my choices, I truly believe that he was, he's guilty. And, but they, you know, they come at you and, and just tear people apart because they think differently. Right. It's scary.

And how could, you know, and I think you make a good point too. Like, it's so scary for people to come from. scary for people to come forward in this day and age because of the mobs and we just need to listen even when we disagree, even if we think differently. Let's all respect one another who, you know, we said that throughout this trial too, just, you know, it's okay if you think Richard Allen is innocent. And you know what? I listened to the evidence too, and I did not make a decision until the end. And, you know, then I shared. So you know what? I think he's guilty after seeing the evidence. But it's okay. You can disagree. You can disagree. You can disagree. And it's,

It is, oh, it's so frightening. And you too, you were in there, and you too knew all this stuff going on outside. You too were given more information than what the jurors had. And even with having that, you made your own choice after listening to the evidence, even though you knew what could have potentially been put in there, but I think it would have been shot down very quickly because they do not have one single witness that can that can connect them, you know? I think sometimes I wish they would have let the odinism in because they would have shot it down pretty darn quick. I think you're,

I wish they would let odinism in too, actually. I think it would have been fine. And but I also don't feel like they weren't able to present all their evidence or case without it. And I understand my judge goal shot it down there really wasn't evidence to bring it in as far as i could see but no no when bring it in yeah if that would have made everyone happy their own person says well no there's nothing there you know how do you continue how could she how could she rule differently when their own witness says that so it's i don't know i that's that's that's why i just I don't understand when I sat there and listened to all that. And I commend all you guys that took notes.

Holy cow. Because the talking and everything was so fast. I did not. I know. I did my best. I was still recovering. I'm just like sheated. Because if I'm writing, I can't listen.

So I can't listen to what they're saying as I'm trying to write what I do. So I didn't take notes, but if something big, something really hit me, my husband had a tablet. So I'd hurry up and write something down. And then at nighttime, maybe I would write some notes of something that really stuck out. But I really just focused on listening. So I don't know. I don't understand. I don't understand the division.

Everybody's, everybody can choose differently, but they should rest. And maybe, maybe if people did respect each other more, maybe they would listen more. And maybe you could come together, you know? I agree. I respect those that think differently than me when it comes to this trial. And I want you to know, I really respected it when you did come up to me. I already said this, but I'll just say it again. And you just said, thank you for sharing facts and truth.

You didn't say, you didn't tell me to pick aside. You didn't tell me what you thought. I didn't know. just said thank you for relaying facts and truth and that meant a lot to me because that's that's what i tried to do and you you did that you did that very well every day you could see it and and and i would tell people you need to go listen to her channel she's telling just the facts you need to listen to this i had heard that after sentencing when richard allen was leaving the courtroom that that that Baldwin ran out to grab him so that he didn't make a statement to any media or anyone about what happened because it appeared in that moment that maybe he was willing to confess or to offer an apology to the families.

And I don't know. Baldwin actually talked about that. And I forget the podcast, but he was on another show where. I remember him saying something that he told him that everything in there was just noise. Basically, what he was saying was our impact statements was just noise. Don't listen to him. Wow. So Baldwin said to Richard Allen, don't listen to the noise.

These victim impact statements, don't listen. I don't know that he said impact statements, but I remember being mad. Oh, so our impact statements are just noise. Don't listen to any of that. It doesn't matter. You know, yes, I remember getting upset over that because it's like, here we go again. How do you feel about the defense attorney's tour after the trial, too, by the way? Go ahead, John.

I was going to say that, but that implies that the impact statements may have had an impact, and he's telling him to ignore it. it's pretty despicable if that's the case yes and um maybe maybe I I don't know um

shame on the defense too if they're trying to tell him not to listen to the victims or but according to them that's their job are they just to you know what was it one of them made the comment once it's nothing against the families were just doing our job, you know? But that was post-conviction.

Go ahead, John. That was post-conviction. Post-conviction, and I also thought it was the defense attorney's job to maybe perhaps get their client the best deal to paint them in the best light, not to get them to not refuse to have empathy for the victims or listen or be moved. And as you point out, John, yeah, this was after the conviction. I think their job was over at that moment. Right, exactly.

They're still going. I know. How does it make you feel? They're appearing in all these channels. How do you feel about the defense attorney's tour? Well, I guess I watched him because I wanted to hear what they had to say for themselves. You know what I mean? And in those, they said we were just doing our job, but I feel like they crossed a line and doing their job.

I don't know. Do lawyers go out and do this? Listen, I've never, there's no book. There's no book to read for me to know what's normal on what happens. You know, we've just gone with the flow for all these years. We've just, I said sometimes I feel like a little feather out in the ocean just being tossed around, you know. we just go wherever the wind carries us. I don't know.

Are they, is it not normal for them to go out? I'm sure they were out there trying to do damage control. You know, this is the exact quote from Baldwin. But I got to say, I was a little worried after that kind of pressure-filled morning of him just saying, you know what, let these families, you know, let's just not do the appeal. I was worried that he might think that. So I ran after him and on his, you know, the guards, again, they're super nice guys. They were nice enough to let me kind of put my arm around them and say, hey, do just ignore all that noise.

Okay. Because there's so many people out there fighting for you and you're going to let all of them down. And you can't worry about, you know, I know that you're worried about the family, the families of Abby and Libby. I know that you're worried about that. But, you know, everybody wants this thing to be completed the right way. And you not appealing this would not be the case. So get that. If that is in your mind, get it out of your mind.

And that's the last words that I spoke to him. Wow. I heard that as, yeah, your victim impact statements were noise that might have affected Richard Allen. So he needs to get that out of his mind because the people want him to keep going. his fan club, his YouTube fan club. The victims are noise. His YouTube fan clubs, you know, relying on him. There's also an implication there that he would walk out and say,

I don't want to appeal this case because I did it. And perhaps even offer an apology after the victim impact statements. And he's just attorneys obviously, or seemingly based on that statement, And he's trying to prohibit him from doing that, which, you know, I mean, it's... I would say that that's not normal defense attorney stuff, just so you know. I've attended quite a few murder trials now. I've never heard of defense attorney say to dismiss the victim's families or that they're just noise. They've kind of done that through this whole thing with Abby and Lubby.

They have. That's probably where I get frustrated the most. I truly believe that through all of this, Abby and Libby were forgotten. They were forgotten. And I don't know if this is the way society's going. Is this going to become the norm? And then what happens to the next families? You know, that's why I said.

There's got to be something. And, you know, something else that people might want to think about. You know, everybody's entitled to their own opinion. I don't disagree with that. But some of the things that are written out there in social media, all of it. You know, you can be a keyboard warrior and type out all kinds of things. whatever you want and

a lot of these people they're typing about or innocent haven't done a thing but yet when they go to get a job and some employer decides they want to look up their name and stuff like that comes up you know you're not

just writing about people you could potentially be affecting their lives people that have done nothing that gone on with their lives you know people there needs to be something done out there that can stop and protect innocent people. Innocent people that are drawn into these cases. You know, it's not just us.

And, you know, it's not just our families that have gone through this. I don't follow anything closely, but I do see sometimes people make statements that other victims' families are going through a lot of the same things we have. so it sounds like it's becoming the norm let's go attack the families and it would be nice if people would just think for a minute what if you were walking in those shoes and people started doing that to you it's it's um

I guess if I could do anything to honor Libby it would be to maybe make an impact on something like that and protect the next family and it's going to be people like you guys that are going to have to carry that torch and I don't know what you guys can do

I promise you that we will do our best thanks because it's getting to be a really cruel world out there so not only do you lose a loved one then you get to go through a lot of horrible stuff so I just wish people would think twice before they put stuff out there We will try to carry the torch as much as we can and with as much integrity and dignity as we can.

There's a lot of people that want to blow that torch out, you know. But there's a lot of people that want to pour water on that torch. But thank you. We would love to honor the victim's memory, Libby and Abby, by, carrying the torch and you being willing to show up and on our show today and be so honest is a big step in that direction. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I've got truth on my side.