Hidden True Crime - DELPHI: Richard Allen Trial Day 10 Tuesday 10/29 - CONFESSIONS & INTERROGATIONS

Episode Date: November 10, 2024

Lauren Matthias is inside the Courtroom in Delphi, Indiana for the trial of Richard Allen, and bringing us the very latest from Carroll County as the trial has no audio or video recording. Richard Allen is charged with murdering 13-year-old Abigail Williams and 14-year-old Liberty German in 2017. About Hidden True Crime: Lauren Matthias, a former television reporter, and her husband Dr. John Matthias, a criminal psychologist, started Hidden True Crime in 2020 with their Season, 'Beyond the Veil,' a psychological deep dive into the doomsday murders and prophet. What started as a simple conversation at their dinner table became a captivating podcast. Join the dynamic duo of Dr. John Matthias, a forensic psychologist, and Lauren Matthias, an investigative journalist, as they delve into the psychological facets of unthinkable crimes every week. Their unique perspectives and in-depth analysis offer a fresh take on true crime storytelling. Thank you for your support through sponsorships, subscribing, listening, and becoming a Patreon member at Patreon.com/HiddenTrueCrime Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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uses premium materials like European linen, organic cotton, but they cut out the middleman. So everything is priced way lower than you'd expect. Refresh. your every day with luxury you can actually use. Head to quince.com slash hidden true crime for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quince, quince, q-u-in-c-com slash hidden true crime for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash hidden true crime. Hey, everyone, I am in Delphi, Indiana, spending long nights in line, camping out in order to get into the courtroom each day and bring you the latest on the Richard Allen trial. Alan is charged with murdering 13-year-old Abigail Williams and 14-year-old Liberty German

in February of 2017. Now, this episode you're about to listen to was originally recorded as a live stream on YouTube right after court ended on Monday. We've made some edits for our podcast version. But if you notice any choppy moments or references to a live chat, that is why. We appreciate you understanding as we work around the clock to bring you the latest on the Richard Allen trial with a quick turnaround. And if you would like to catch the full unedited live stream, you can always head over to Hidden Chew Crime on YouTube. Oh, hello, hello. Hello, everyone. Let's all thank Ted right now. He is a hidden gem who is actually sitting over at the courtroom steps right now, ready for tomorrow.

while I go live and this is going to be a very, very long show. There is a lot to cover. And I will do my best covering it fast and trying to be as concise as I can. But I have so many notes. I lost track of witnesses. We were actually in court until after 6 p.m. Witness, after witness after witness. So I went live during my lunch live, right?

And I said we saw two videos. as an interview and an interrogation video. And whoa, I have so much to tell you guys. And then we go back in. I think we had at least six, if not seven witnesses, six or seven. And all of them working at the prison. So they were S companions for Richard Allen. And they each wrote things that Richard Allen told them,

that they allegedly told them. So let's just go back to the beginning. I told you at lunch that I was going to almost just read through verbatim what happened in the two very long videos. We spent the entire morning with the two videos. And I wrote as fast as I could, as did my neighbors. And we exchanged notes. And I did my best to get the best transcription I can. I'm sure one day you'll all be able to hear these.

You know, there's a court reporter in there. But for now, I was in there. And I'm going to do my best. I also want to thank everybody that's in chat, including fellow creators who have covered this case. It's so important that we all work together. And I know that there has been controversy in our chat in the past few days. And so I just want to say this, that I invite all creators to be here. But let's just please try to be kind and respectful to everyone because covering the Richard Allen trial is a joint effort.

And all of you guys mean so much to me. And everybody has been so helpful. And so many creators have brought so much to this case over the years. And I just am so grateful that everyone can be here tonight. And then to my moderators who have told me that covering this Delphi case is very difficult, thank you from the bottom of my heart for my incredible moderators. And I did give them permission, though, that if something is going to rise, in order to help make things easier for them,

they have permission to take over tonight. So thank you, everyone. Again, let's get to it. First off, full courtroom this morning, very full courtroom. Abby's parents were there, Abby's grandparents were there, aunts were there, Libby's mother, Libby's aunt, Libby's grandparents, the patties, Kelsey, Libby's half-sisters, just a lot of people. And then on the other side where the defense is, you had Kathy Allen,

you had Richard Allen's father there. his mother is still not there. I did ask about her and someone said that Richard Allen's mother is out of the hospital after she fell a couple days ago, but she is recovering at home. So it wasn't just a full courtroom with the public and people spending the night outside last night. A big thank you to Heidi, who helped us too. I want to say to Heidi, a hidden gym, who helped us overnight as well get a spot.

I thought it would get better and I thought it would get easier going to the courtroom after like some of us showed up for two weeks, but people are now lining up before we even get out of the courtroom for the day. So as we got out today at 6 p.m., like out of the courtroom, there are already 12 people in line for and only like 22 people can fit in like in the line. So it's, it's actually kind of like getting more, a little bit more intense. So it's just taking a village. And I just want to thank Ted tonight and Heidi last night so that I can be here live. Because I think that there's probably a line of 30 out there now for tomorrow. And by the way, I mentioned that I'm going home for Halloween.

I was going to go home tomorrow. I just switched my flight. So I will be there tomorrow all day. I've heard it's going to be a very important day today tomorrow too. Thank you, Carla. And it was an important day today. Let's get to it, as I said earlier. So Carrie is Libby's mom and her sister Brenda was also there.

It started again with the interrogation. So to remind everyone, or sorry, the interview, To remind everyone, there were two interviews with Richard Allen. I guess technically both could be technically interrogation. That's a question for duty run here. But the first interview with Richard Allen was on October 13th, 2022. And in that, it was an interview done by Mullins and Liggett, who have both testified. And they went over to Richard Allen's house after Kathy Schenck brought over the information.

and they learned of this old tip sheet that they really, they learned that this gentleman had been at the bridge on February 13th, 2017, and they didn't really dot their eyes and cross the T's. So they go over to Richard Allen's house and they realize that he lives on Whiteman Drive. That's why his name was Richard Allen Whiteman. They go over there and they say, hey, will you come over to the station for an interview? And he's like, absolutely, let's go. So they all go over.

They go into this room. and they turn on the camera and here we are. So October 13th, 2017, he has not heard from police since 2017 when he offered all the information he did about his alibi being at the bridge. And five years later, here we are. They come in, they spoke to Dolan. So remember, Dolan was the one that interviewed Richard Allen back in 2017. So they're starting to say, hey, look, we spoke to Dolan and we just wanted to know what you saw. We learned you were were at the bridge. And in this video, by the way, Richard Allen has a dark sweatshirt on. He has a long goatee. A lot of our witnesses today had longotis. The longotis must have been a thing in

Indiana here in the last five years I'm learning. So he had a long goatee today and short, almost buzzed hair similar to how he has it in the courtroom. Then he says, and then they begin again. So hey, you know, Richard, according to Dolan, you are on the trail between. between 1.30 and 3.30. You parked at the Farm Bureau building, and you may have been, although at the old welfare office, according to us. And then Richard says, yeah, so my name is Richard, Matthew Allen. I'm 50 years old. I was born in 1967. He lives on Whiteman Drive again. He shares his phone number. We hear his voice. By the way, that's as interesting. I know everybody's asking, okay, you know what? You guys are wondering, I wasn't going to say anything. You guys want to know

if his voice matches bridge guy, right? I even got a text from an Amad just now saying everybody wants to know. Let me just say this. Is it a match? I don't know what a match is. I don't know if there's a match. Could it be? I'm no voice recognition analyst.

So this is coming from Lauren, woman and reporter in the courtroom and nothing else. I'm no expert. You know, we have to realize that the voice was amplified. It's quiet. I hate to even like speculate. This is very difficult for me. But everybody's saying this is all you guys want to know. Is it possible?

Probably possible. I think I could say that about a few voices. Take that for what it's worth. I don't know if there's a match. So that's all I'm going to say about that. But there was no like, that's the voice I've been waiting to hear. There was none of that.

But could it be possible? Yeah, it could be possible. Could it be possible? It could be someone else's voice? Yes. Is that fair? Let's leave it at that. He gives his phone number.

I hear his voice. He is very calm. Richard Allen is very calm as he shares all this personal information. He, again, shares his phone number. He's calm. They ask him what kind of phone he has. He says he has an Android. They share an email, Rick 2045 at Frontier.com.

This was interesting. Before he shared the email, he goes, uh, like, I mean, I don't know. Maybe he was deciding which email to share, but he went, uh. Then he shared the Rick 2024. And then he said, you know, I have another. email too. It's Foojako at gmail.com. That's an interesting email because they've brought that email up in court actually yesterday at the end of court saying that they wanted to do a Google search results using that email. And the defense was arguing that there's no guarantee he's the only one that

use that email address. So put a pin in that. We'll find out what they decide. So there's that email address. They asked for us, he doesn't have a Facebook account. His wife, Kathy, does. He's married to Kathy. He has a daughter named Britney's 28 years old, 1994. They ask her last name. He actually struggles spelling her last name. And he explains that, you know, she married a man that was originally from the Philippines. He lived in Canada and they got married in 2017. He explains that he graduated high school in Miami and 91. He studied accounting. And then he explains that he was in the military, National Honor Society, Armoring National Guard, Rank E5. He doesn't go to church, although he occasionally goes, but church isn't really his thing. They asked him about his health.

He said he had a heart attack in 2010 and I think he said a couple sense. It was kind of hard to hear. And then he struggles with, and this is going to be a theme throughout the entire day. But he says, back then, you know, I do. I struggle with severe depression and anxiety, blood pressure and cholesterol. In 2013, he worked in Peru. That's not the country. That's Peru, Indiana. And then he went to Delphi. He said in 2016 or 2017, he came to Delphi. And he's been here for a while now. Again, this is 2022. He spent 10 years with Walmart. He was the store manager. So he's in Peru at the CBS. It didn't work out. He was training. He didn't transfer back. It's a long story. He explains. He got tied.

of it, tired of the customers. In 2016, he came back to Delphi. By the way, I noticed that he doesn't really pronounce his words. He has a bit of a, he's not super articulate. He doesn't enunciate. That's what I'm looking for. He's, I don't know what you would call that, but he doesn't enunciate all his words. But it's kind of like a relaxed way of talking and he's not the most articulate.

But smart, he sounds like a regular guy talking here. Again, he stays calm for the majority of. this interview, really. So then they asked him, so what was going on on Monday, February 13th, 2017? He goes, well, I went to my mom's in Peru. She might have had surgery around that time. He's not quite sure, but he spent the morning with them, she says, and his sister came over, and his wife was working and they were all going to go get lunch, like mom's sister, them. And so he left. It was a warm day, warmer than usual for that time of year. So, because his wife was working, he put a jacket on, went home, put a jacket on, and walked back on high

bridge. And in quotes, onto the bridge. So he said that twice. He goes, so I walked on high bridge onto the bridge. So he puts himself on the bridge that day. And then I walked back. It was probably around 11 or 1115 around there. I walked on high bridge. So he says it again. He walked on high bridge. Not all the way. He said, I just went to the ledge, not the whole. way just to watch the fish. I like fishing. I went down. I sat on the bench for a while. I sat for a while and then got up and left. He asked, is there a backroad or a bridge on the other side? And I parked there, he explained. There is some farm entrance. We know that as Mears Farm Entrance. But he says there is some farm entrance. And I didn't park there because there were a couple of vehicles. That's interesting,

I thought, too. He's actually saying he didn't park at the farm entrance because he saw a couple of vehicles. And then he said, you take the road where the park is. The road takes off to the right. And I just put in parentheses, this was a little hard for me to get every detail, but for quite a while, he's just kind of like explaining through different roads and ways he's describing to the officers or the detectives where he parks. So then he parked in this area where I parked. He said at one point where I parked, they didn't want you to park there. But I parked there. There's a bridge side. And again, I write in parentheses here, this is being described for a very long time. And officers pull out the map and they say, can you mark where you parked?

And there is a lot of talking between them while pointing out this map and this old bridge. Which way would you travel? They ask him. I don't know the roads. But I can tell you where I drove, he says. If you go down and around, there on occasion, you could go down another way. I go there a lot, he says. I mean, guys, I just want to pause and say, I kept writing because it was really interesting

to me just how long they spent talking about where he parked and which direction he went. So I'll just say, well, I couldn't get everything. Just know it was a very large part of this video. He explains, I think there is a way to go past the farmer's entrance. I know there is a way that winds around and it comes out somewhere, out there. And we did that once on accident, we went that way. So that was interesting too. He said, yeah, I know there's a strange way that throws you out kind of in this area

because we went that way once on accident. We went that way. But usually we go the way to town. So after he says that he went this other way, then he says, but usually we go this way to town, but we did come out this other way on accident. He asked about talking to Officer Dolans back in the day. And he says shortly later, they were asking people, they explained, why did you reach out back in 2017?

And he explains that they started asking for people that were there, that went down to the trail that they, to go down to the police station or go make a tip. He said, so I went down to the sheriff's station. I said, look, here's my info. I pulled over. I talked to an officer. So now it sounds like maybe he went to the side of the road. Because then he says, I pulled over.

I talked to an officer. I asked if they could talk at the office. but I just asked if he could meet me in the parking lot. Okay, let me reiterate, forgive me. He did go to the sheriff's office, then he left. Then that's when Dolan called him on the phone and said, well, you come down to the sheriff's office again, but he said, look, I'm on my way somewhere.

Can you just meet me in the parking lot of the grocery store? Which actually does make sense to me that someone would do that. Look, like, I can't like take a moment out of my day to come meet you at the sheriff's office, but I'm super willing to come just come meet me in this parking lot. it does make sense to me that he did that. So they call me, but I just ask if he can meet me in the parking lot of the grocery store. He did. He got all of my info.

And that's pretty much that. I haven't heard from anyone since. Then he says, you know, I've thought about it a lot since then. And he emphasized a lot. And I emphasized a lot on my paper. I thought about it a lot since then. I think I was there around 1 to 1.30 or maybe 1.45, depending. I walked down the trail.

I approached the trail. There were three girls walking the trail, and one was watching the other two. So he explains that one of the girls was older, and she seemed to be babysitting the other two girls. I remember they all look similar walking down the trail head, and they didn't see me. I didn't see anyone else the entire time. There were other vehicles parked at the farmer's entrance. And then they asked him, had you ever been out there before? And then he gives this very long explanation that was hard to follow and I checked it with my courtroom neighbors.

But he explains that he had been out to this trail before and explains that the first time he came out, he wasn't even living in Delphi at the time. He said, yeah, we did a cleanup for the Lafayette Walmart where I worked. And it was where I sat on this bench. And there was this little shed back then. And the local Walmart in 2006, it wasn't even a Walmart at the time. I went to CVS. and so like he was going all over the place here. He explains that he was working and he started going out around this time

where they were like helping with some floodwaters or something back. It was really confusing. So he gives this whole kind of story for, yeah, the first time he ever came out to the trail, which sort of equates to being 2006. And then he said he got associated with whoever runs the Erie Canal, Dan McCain got involved. He brought people out from Wong.

Walmart to the Erie Canal thing, the Carlton Bridge that day. And he said, I just remember an SUV sedan at Mears. Oh, so going back. So he explains that that's where he sort of was introduced to the trails. And then he started taking his family. So his family started going out to the trails. In other words, back in 2006, well before he ever moved to Delphi. And I want to point that out because that's interesting to me.

He, Richard Allen was familiar with the trails. We know all the way back in 2006, he's kind of giving the story of like, oh, yeah, back of the day. This is when I became familiar with them. So then they say, then he says, going back to that day that February 13th day in 2017, he says he just remembers an SUV sedan at the Mears Farmer's entrance. And I parked where I didn't see anyone. That's interesting.

I parked where I didn't see anyone. And then again, I just put in the parentheses so much talk and explanation of where he parked. And I'm going to read some of that. He said a lot of people parked at the farm's entrance, but no one was supposed to park there. So I didn't park there. The farm's entrance is the most convenient, but I didn't park there. I never knew the name of the building where I parked. I explained, though, to you that I took a left and then I took a right.

And they're again pointing out the map really kind of understanding. where he parked. How far up, they asked the high bridge, did you go? He says, no idea how many feet. There was a platform thing that sticks out between six and ten. I used to walk across the whole bridge when it was in better shape, but I don't go all the way across anymore. Again, I just went out to see if I could see any fish. So they asked him, if you parked here, so they know on the map where he parked, in other words. There's questions about it. They really know. They figured it out. They took a really long time figuring out where he parked. So they explained, if you've parked here, where did you go to get into the trail? He explains again, after they asked that question,

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Discover your true age today. He explains at some point, you just walk along the road. That's interesting too. So he explains that in order to get to the trail from where he parked, he has to walk along the road. And there is a little trail. And like he said, they didn't want him to park at mirrors. And that's why he never parks at the mirrors.

That's why he parked at the building until they did that gravel path to the trail. But they didn't want him to park somewhere else. So he just parked there. He often works away from home. And when he was working in Peru, his trucks would, he would drive at three in the morning. And there was this one day that he was so tired driving his truck back in Peru that he fell asleep and the airbag came out. And he went to the side of the road and he hid an SUV on the side of the road. and he stopped.

He hit at full speed, he says. So anyway, he said he got out. He couldn't find anything anyway. Blah, blah, blah. Long story. And by the way, that's not me saying blah, blah, blah. This is Richard Allen saying it. I literally quoted him.

I get out. I couldn't find anything. Blah, blah, blah. Long story short. My point is, I was driving a black car then. And I drove to Delphi. And I didn't need it. So I drove the black car.

So my wife drove the great car. but sometimes I take the black car because it's more dependable. But anyway, it has her license plate. I got her a gray car three or four years ago. I got her the black car. I look at the jury at this moment because to me, it was really interesting. Like this is,

he was just getting so detailed. So I look at the jury to try to figure out what they're thinking during this. And honestly, the jury looks completely poker faced. Two of the jurors arms are folded like this as they're just like zoned in on the video. They're just sitting here. arms folded watching every juror poker face. I can honestly tell you I have no idea what the jury is thinking at this moment.

I do notice that in the video, he does a lot of touching of his face and his ears. And again, I'm not a body language expert. Actually, technically my husband is, but my husband says it's all objective. And so my point is, I don't even know if that means anything. I'm just sharing it.

I've noticed that he touches his face a lot even in court. So I'm noticing that here too, take that for what it is, just sharing it. A lot of touching of his face and his ears in the video. The only people I saw, again, he states, were the girls. And the girls that stood out to me. I was walking towards them, an older girl and two younger girls. I didn't see anyone else. I didn't see anyone else jump out to me.

And then they asked him, this is exactly how they asked him, did you have a phone or a watch with you? And this is what he says. I thought this is interesting. So they say, did you have a phone or a watch with you? And by the way, the tone of this conversation is calm and casual still at this moment. It's just like a bunch of dudes at lunch. So did you have a phone or watch on you?

He says, I think so. I had a program so that if you didn't have service, I could get my phone still. I watched the stock market on my phone. I like to look at cars and I like predicting what might happen. So that's how he responds to his phone. That was interesting. So then he says, and then they ask him, what did you wear? And he said, a jacket, blue jeans.

And then I have a Carhart jacket. We've all had Carhart jackets over the years. I have a blue one. I have a black one. I think I have an off-brand one. Could have worn that. I have hoodies, jackets, a little bit of everything. sweatshirts. And then Richard Allen in the video takes a sip of his water after he shares that.

And then they say, okay, what kind of shoes were you wearing? He says, shoes. I've had them for 10 to 12 years. I would have been tennis shoes. I've had military boots, though, but I haven't worn those in years. And I have combat boots. I haven't worn in those in years either. So probably tennis shoes. But if it's wet, I'll wear the combat boots that they are waterproof, but I don't know. Oh, and then he says, but I don't know. This wasn't that long ago, but long enough. And then he kind of mumbles. And I look over the jury and they're looking.

And then in the video, they leave, like the officers leave for a second after that. And while they leave, just to demonstrate, actually, I can't demonstrate because I don't think I have my phone. So they leave and just so you guys can know just kind of how casual it is with his one hand on one arm. And he's just kind of looking at his phone. He's just kind of scroll on his phone like this, just chilling. So that's what it looks like. So then they come back. They come back in the room and they say, okay, so what we would like is to get more

information. We would like to examine your phone. They say to him. Straight up. I like that. Forward. They're like, look, we'd like to examine your phone because it could help confirm or deny and we could extract information from your phone.

Would you be okay with this? So they say, look, could we extract? your phone. He says, I don't have my phone back then. And they're like, that's okay. Let's just start with the phone you have now. And he says, well, I always try to use the same online contract that's an online service that a lot of people don't know about. You pay a full price for a phone, like $500 and $600 for a phone. But as far as service, I only pay $40 a month for two phones. It's called Ting. I checked with other people in the courtroom and they spelled it T-I-N-G. And then they say, okay so again he didn't really answer like could we use your phone he just explains his phone service and then they say okay well do you recall what phone you had back in 2017 he says i didn't have this phone yet as far as a service provider i probably would have had ting then gosh i don't know after that i just don't know if i had ting it's a home system it works off of like verizon and you don't hear about at t and t anymore these days but when i moved to delphi and since i left won't

I had is my phone plan through Walmart until I left to Delphi. And then they say again, okay, well, we could start with this phone if it's okay with you. And then they actually hand him at this moment just to like, you know, make things a little more tense. They hand him sort of like a permit and he's reading a search permit and now arms are folded now in the video. So quickly kind of shifted. They say, okay, so anyway, can we ask for your.

password. And are there any questions you have for us? He said, this sounds more like, so now Richard Allen's getting concerned, look, I don't want to be anyone's fall guy. I just want to be helpful. And then they say, well, we need to try to eliminate you. But then he says, and then he goes, sure, but I don't want to be anyone's fall guy. I'm not questioning your integrity officers, but see, what I'm saying is, and I, didn't get the rest. Sorry, I put ellipsies after that, dot, dot, dot, because I didn't get the rest of that. Then they come back and they say, I see what you're saying, the officer state or the detective state, but from our perspective, we just want to make sure everything you're saying is true.

We want to look at your car, look at your house, and it's all very important. He states, I get that. I don't mind you going through my house. But it feels like, it feels like you're starting to blame me. And I don't want to be a fall guy. They say, you won't be a fall guy. And then he reiterates again, I thought this was interesting. He said this a few times. So to the officers or detectives, he says, I'm not questioning your integrity. But if you're going to search my car and my house, I am not going to allow police without a warrant. But I'll let you look at my phone.

They say, great. And then they have a question. So will you try to get us that other phone again from 2017? He states, yes, I will try. And then they said, so what is the phone again? And then he said, oh, it's a Google something or other. The code is 2045. They say, you know what?

And then they question, you know, oh, then Richard Allen comes back. He's rethinking things. And he says, you know what? Let me talk to my wife first. I don't want to be associated with this anymore than anyone else does. And I am no angel. And I don't want you looking at every website I've visited. So let me just talk to my wife first.

before I let you all in. I've never questioned, though, anyone else's integrity. And then the police say, look, I don't want you to think that we are randomly coming after you. And then he said, I don't think you are coming after me. And then they confronted him. So, you know, we're just getting some things hiding. They said, well, look, you said that you were at 1.30 to 3.30 on the trails. And then he said, no, I left more like 1.30 from the trails.

And then they said, well, we just kind of need to know things like that then to get exact. And then he explains, look, I just know that I left at 11 a.m. Because I wasn't going to do that lunch thing. I was just going to watch the stock market. At this moment, I look over at Kathy Allen, his wife, who's in front. And she often does this. But during this moment, Kathy is shaking her head like this. And she's looking very sad, almost like this.

Don't know what it means, just sharing. I can't imagine how all the families are feeling in here. So he's now been past the tip lead from Dolenz, and he's reading the tip lead back from 2017. And Dan Dullins is his name. And then he says, as far as searching my house and my phone, and I didn't get the rest of what he said. And then the officers say, look, it would be very helpful.

And if we don't find anything, that's great. Like, it would just be very helpful. And he says, like, we are here because we haven't found the guy who did this. oh, this is important. This is a quote from Richard Allen. Excuse me. Richard Allen states, like, look, we are all in this room together because we haven't found the guy who did this.

And I don't want to become that guy. And I watch Dateline every week with my wife. And I know that you won't find anything. And you can come get the info that you need. I have nothing to do with this. I haven't been a part of this investigation. It's a horrible thing. And I don't want to be.

a part of it. If I have something useful, I will share it. And then they say, look, if we can look at your car forensically, then we can say, we looked at Ricky, we looked at his car. And then he said, look, I need to talk to my wife first. And I know y'all don't talk to nobody. Dot, dot, dot, didn't get the rest of it. And then the detectives say, look, a couple of things to ask, would you mind if we stepped out for a minute? And he says, go ahead. And Richard Allen then at that same time. He actually goes into that same stance. He has his phone. He looks very comfortable. And he's just kind of scrolling his phone and has his hand on the other chair. And he's leaning back like this. That's kind of what he does the whole time the officers are out. In the courtroom, though,

in the courtroom, it's his attorney Baldwin that looks more like that. Baldwin is sitting right next to him. And he has his arm around Richard Allen. And this is something that Baldwin has actually done quite a few times in court, including both times that the crime scenes were shown. Yesterday was the second time. And then the first time, both times that happened, Baldwin has his arm completely around Richard Allen. And during this interrogation this morning, I may note it was the same thing. Baldwin had his arm around Richard Allen.

So Richard Allen looks at his phone. And so back to the video, just staring at the phone. He's not moving. He's not touching his face. his left arms on the chair next to him looking down as he scrolls with his right hand. He looks up, he pauses. He finally puts his phone down. Then he picks it back up.

So his phone like many of us, including me, is sort of, I think, his like crutch during this like long wait. He's putting it down. He's lifted it up. He's looking at it. But he's not touching his face. He's just kind of looking at his phone. They come back in. He said, look, one thing you told us was your car.

And we have a pitcher. of your car going up the trails that day. And they show him the photo. They say, I'm going to be honest with you. You know, we have a pick of an individual on the bridge. And you describe yourself that day and what you're wearing and what you're wearing. And it's similar to the picture of the guy on the bridge. And then he goes, look, it's not me.

I've never met these girls. So even if it looks like me, it is not. me. I have never met them. End quote. Then this was a really interesting moment. They bring up the house incident. I think that Dr. John my co-host brought it up in his personal analysis, criminal psychologist John Matthias, before I left for trial about an incident where police were called to the house and they ended up transporting Richard Allen to the hospital, I believe, police did. So the officers bring up the house incident and they say, look, we know about this when they were called by Kathy, when the police were called by Kathy. And he gets pretty upset at this moment.

I don't even mean like angry or defensive. I just mean like he gets something happens. I'm not even like pinpoint the emotion. But it sort of like kind of triggers him. And he goes, look, he goes, I was going to shoot myself that night. But my psychological issues aren't new. They are not because I killed. these girls. And then at this moment, I look over at Kathy Allen in the courtroom and she's actually

visibly crying and pretty hard at this moment. And I'm sure she's remembering this night. It sounds like it was a very real night. Police were called. And according to Richard Allen himself, he says that this was a night where he was considering taking his life. His wife is crying in the courtroom. And she's holding the top of her nose like this as her head has bent down crying. And then goes back to investigators. They say, look, we need to find out what happened. You you're wearing the same clothes, the same hat as bridge guy. What we want to do is look at your phone and the data and check it all out. You say you're a nice guy.

I believe that you're a nice guy. You rode in the car with us here. We had a nice talk. At this moment, by the way, Richard Allen is not like this. He is now like this sitting in this room. So while they're telling him that they think he's a nice guy and how they remind him that they all rode in the car over here together, is like this. They're like, look, you wrote in the car here with us. We had a nice talk.

And a lot of us, what we need to figure out is why you say one thing, but we see another. And he said, look, it is my car. I told you, I could have been driving that car. It is his car. He goes, and they say, look, and then he says, I'm not concerned. But if you are asking, if my story has changed, so I feel now, I, and he goes, I feel now I'm being interrogated. you talked to my wife and my daughter and my family thinks I did this. What would you suggest? And then they go, well, what would you suggest we do? He goes, you went and talked to my daughter and my wife, he says.

I cannot tell you what happened. This is a quote they've already mentioned in court. It's important. If that photo was taken from the girl's phone, then it is not me because I have never met them. End quote. you said though that you were on this bridge at this time wearing these clothes and he says no i didn't and they said yes you did the question is is that you it's what we want to have an answer to did you cross the bridge all the way to the other side and go down the hill and then he said what do you

mean and they said you said you walked on the bridge and he said this is the first platform i don't know how far I went. I haven't gone that far in years. And then they said, the question is, is this you? And they point to the picture. And he says, no. I told you, I could be wearing a lot of different things that day. And they said, you said you could be wearing a black or blue collar heart coat. And then he gets defiant. And Mullins is actually getting really close to him. So the interview started where they were across the table from each other. And now Mullins is like, so I'm on the corner, you can't see, but I'm on the corner of the dining room table. So if Richard Allen were here at this corner, he was right here at this other corner,

like kind of like, I don't think he was trying to do it to intimidate him. I think he was just trying to like get comfortable and show him things. Like look at this picture, look at that. But it has shifted where like Mullins is like right here next to him. And Richard Allen is now being defiant, arms closed, like defensive. And they're showing the photos to him and they're talking to him. He states, it's not me. You're not going to make me believe it's me.

That's a direct quote. I thought that was interesting. It's not me. You're not going to make me believe it's me. And then the investigators say, put yourself in our situation. While we're looking at all of the evidence, think of what you shared with us. And then he says, I'm done. Arrest me or take me home.

I'm done. And then the video's redacted. And I should have mentioned that there are some redactions in both these videos. It's like a black moment. they put like a black thing on the screen and then they go back don't know what they redact there's a black screen right there then he says this is ridiculous you're trying to tell me i gave you a description of bridge guy and i didn't you can't even say that that's a car heart coat and they said we can't say it is or it isn't and then he states i'm not going to talk to anyone this is really pissing me off

and that's the end and the police say thank you and he walks out and he says you're an ass And he walks out. Two jurors smile after he says, you're the asshole whole comment and walks out on the video. And that's the end of that video. Two jurors were smiling. Don't know why, but they were. Then the morning break happens. I look over at Kathy Allen.

I look over at everyone. I just kind of scan the courtroom to see what I noticed. That's important to report. And Kathy Allen was crying very hard after this interview ended. Let me know. before I jump into this next interrogation video from October 26, 22, which is the day he was arrested, let me know how the chat's going. Maybe they were Emily. Yeah, I'm just the messenger. And you know, I love being the messenger so you guys can form your own opinions. Just want to make sure,

I guess nobody can write right away. So I'll keep going. Let me know if the chat's okay. And thank you everyone for liking and subscribing this video. And I see that there are a lot of super chats and a lot of things going on. I will check those soon too. So thank you. We just have so much to get through. Thank you, everybody. All right. I'll just slow it down a bit. I can also speed the chat up too, if we decide to make it too slow. I see a thousand people here. That's incredible. I'm so grateful so many people care about this case and I will keep breaking this down and doing my best, just relaying what I'm seeing in court today. Okay, so the morning break is finished. Then we have the interview with Holman. And if you guys remember Lieutenant Holman, he's been on the stand

twice and he is the one that did this interview with Richard Allen the day he was detained on October 26, 2022, so almost exactly two years ago, two years ago in a couple days. So Richard Allen in the video, again, he has his longotie, he has his buzzed gray hair. He's in a black top and black bottoms that actually look like scrubs. And for a second, I wondered if they were. But then I saw a bit of like a track pant line on his pants. So I think they were like track pants and a black t-shirt. At this moment, they had seized items from his house, and they explained what they seized.

So they're like, look, we took clothes, we took knives, we took a car, we car a six hour. Oh, and so, and then it's just Holman in the room right now. And so he says, and they talk military for the while, lots of mumbling. And as Holman said this in his testimony, he was trying to get a rapport with him. Actually, I think he didn't do that great of a job. I think Richard Allen was probably a bit more on the defense right away. So I could say it was an effort by Holman to make report. You know, they talked to military.

Then he asked if they have any good indoor ranges in Delphi. Richard Dallin's like, I don't know. And then Holman tells him where he shoots his gun. And he said, like I said, let me just explain. This is what we seized. And they are all still testing a bunch. They're taking swabs. So Holman asks, look, but have you ever loaned anything out?

like a car or a truck or clothes. Richard Allen says, if I have, I don't remember. Holman says, look, well, we need to talk about a test that we did get back. Oh, but before I get to that test, he states, did you have knives, any knives on the bridge? Richard Allen says, I didn't have any knives on the bridge. He said, well, they are, his fingerprints are on a bullet that match with an item. And he shows Richard Allen the picture of the extraction. The methodology, he explains, is scientific.

So I'm just showing you. And Richard Allen says, I don't need to read this. And Holman tries to cut, tries to explain. And Richard Allen quickly says, this is ridiculous. And Holman says, hold on. I'm on your side. You mentioned a fall guy and it being over. You said that it was too late.

The damage had been done. and we have experts saying, though, that it's you in this photo. Richard Allen says, I don't even know how my bullet would have gotten there. And then Holman reminds him, look, this is scientific. This cartridge was within six inches of Libby. And the round, this cartridge matched your gun that we seized from the house. And it's scientific within six inches of Libby's body. And then Richard Allen says, look, if that's what you're,

you're saying, it is not my round. And then Holman says, you were on the bridge. And Richard Allen says, look, I told you, but I can't tell you what happened that day. And then Holman says, good old classic, the truth will set you free. The truth, how your bullet was between two girls. And if you're not that guy, you're not going down. And he says, look, Richard says, look, do you know what you're doing to me? you're talking to my coworkers, my family. I have all sorts of stress and anxiety and depression. And you are already saying, I've done something. I don't like it when people say I've done something.

Holman says, look, you were there. Your car was there. Richard Allen says, there is no way that round of mine was found at the crime scene. Holman says, I'm trying to help you. Richard Allen says, no, you're trying to take me down. I'm done. I'm going to go. You're trying to arrest me.

The damage is done. I don't know what you want me to explain. Holman says, I don't. I would never, even if I wanted to do something like that. Oh, no, excuse me. It's Richard Allen. I marked the Holman. And he said, I would never do this.

Even if I wanted to do something like that, it's not who I am. I thought that was interesting too. If I wanted to do something like that, it's not who I am. A little bit of self-verification there. ask Dr. John about that one. And by that, I mean, whether he's innocent or guilty, oftentimes people do that. John explains like when someone presents something, whether false or true about yourself, you'll sometimes, according to John, you have self-verification theory, which is like, I'm not that person. How could you say that

about me? I don't know what that means innocent. I don't think it means innocence or guilt. I'm just, it's just interesting. He says, even if I wanted to do something like that, it's not who I am. I did not murder two little girls. I also noticed this. too. When he refers to Abby and Libby, he either, Richard Allen either refers to them as Abby or Libby or he refers to them as little girls. He goes, I did not murder two little girls. And Holman states, I'm being nice. And he goes, no, you're not. You're trying to get me to confess to killing two little girls. That round was collected on 213, 2017, and it's been in evidence ever since. Holman's now saying like, look, this is what we have. It was collected.

It's been in evidence ever since. He says, well, then it didn't come out of my gun. If it did, if it was by the girls or any crime scene, it wasn't me. Okay. And then Richard Allen says this. It's really interesting. So he says, look, then it didn't come from out of my gun. If it was by them, by the girls, or any crime scene, it wasn't me. And he goes, look, I have been not wanting to live for seven to eight years now. It has been a battle. And do you know what you've done to me? And then Holman just responds,

this gun, how did this gun, how did your cartridge get at the crime scene? He goes, I have never done that to Abby or Libby. I've never even met them. That's also something he says a lot too. He's never done this. He's never even met them. I think that's interesting.

Holman says, look, death penalty is on the table. now he's sitting in the room alone looking quite still, his legs are crossed. And I notice oftentimes when Richard Allen is in the room alone during this interrogation, he doesn't touch his face or get nervous. Again, I notice he does that in the courtroom. Like he'll touch, he'll rub when he's alone in interrogation room, maybe it's because he knows there's a camera there. Maybe it's just two he is, but he actually doesn't move that much.

He does move some, but he's sitting in the room alone looking quite still and his legs are crossed as he waits for him to come back. So at this point, two people come. back into the interrogation room. It's Holman again, and he has veto with him. And they actually now start swabbing him for DNA, and he willingly lets them. So they're doing like swabs. Richard Allen is letting them.

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Seeing you out there on the bridge with the girls. And he goes, they didn't see me with the girls because I wasn't around the girls that day. I'm not going to let you trick me into admitting that this is something into something I didn't do. And then they say, well, we know that around. from your gun oh he goes i know that around from my gun didn't end up at the murder scene and they state i know you're involved with this and richard allen says involved with who and holman says i don't know you tell me i'm showing you some of the evidence i've got you tell me how you're involved and then holman mentions look the media isn't nice and social media isn't nice either why don't you just tell me what you know and richard allen says look

I've already told them. I've already told you the damage has been done. Holman says, well, you made a mistake. Richard Allen says, I am not going to admit to something I didn't do. Holman says, what did you do? Where's this guy? And then Richard Allen responds, tell me where this guy is that says I helped him. Holman says, you tell me where this guy is.

Richard Allen says, I don't know. You said someone said that I'm involved. If you don't think I did it, what did I do? Holman says, I didn't say that. Richard Allen states, I'm done. If you are going to arrest me, arrest me. I'm not doing this. Holman again says, I'm trying to help you.

Richard Allen says, I don't need you to help me. I think nothing you have will show me that I murdered two girls. Holman says, witnesses saw a gun in your pocket. Richard Allen says, no, they didn't. I'm saying I did not have a gun. Holman says, well, what the scientists are saying is this cartridge is unique and it's unique to your gun. Richard Allen says, and what I'm telling you is there is no way a bullet from my gun ended up at the murder scene. Holman, scientists say the marks on the gun

match yours. Richard Allen states, I have never shot anyone. I've never pointed my gun at anyone. They state, you said that you were there. He goes, yeah, I told you I was on the trail. I didn't tell you I was at a murder scene. I'm not going to tell you I was there so you can feel better about what you're doing. I'm done. They say you and I both know what happened. The evidence shows there are missing pieces, but maybe you can help me to fill them in. Richard Allen, I didn't do this. I've never been around those two girls. I've never even seen them. I am not going to confess to something I didn't do. The day they asked if anyone who was on the trail to come out, that's when I went out. Oh my God, you obviously don't believe me.

You don't believe me. And then Holman responds back with, well, you don't believe this evidence. And Richard Allen responds, I don't. There is no way possible. Richard Allen then says again, I am not going to sit here all day trying to convince you I didn't do it. When you obviously think that I did. I told you, you guys are trying to trick me into telling you something. I don't know how to make this any clearer.

I am not going to tell you I didn't do something that I didn't do. Holman then leaves the room again. Richard Allen just waits and sits by himself and just chills. The Richard Allen in the courtroom is watching himself on the screen. So Richard Allen is in the courtroom. He's watching this whole screen is very close to him and he's just sitting watching. Richard Allen on the screen, what we watch is just sitting there. There's little movement.

He rubs his face kind of like this. He places his hands in his lap. he shakes his head kind of like this. I also notice that he's a lot bigger in the video than he is now. Like clearly he's been in prison. Like he's pretty skinny. I mean, that's part of what the defense is saying that he hasn't been,

you know, eating or healthy. And so I just noticed that's another thing that he is bulkier in the interrogation video. Then Holman walks back in without Kathy, Allen. She comes in later. And that's when Holman brings up his wife.

And he says, Kathy says, da-da-da-da-da, and that's when Richard Allen says, I think I know my wife. And then Holman says, you haven't been telling her that your depression has gotten worse. And that's when Richard Allen states, look, this has been going on for six to seven years. I have depression too. Oh, no, Holman says, look, dude, I've got depression too, trying to relate to him. And then Holman says, look, here's my theory. This is interesting.

We've got a Holman's theory here. Here's my theory. He says, you're out there. You have a gun. we know you have anger issues. Your wife told us that. You have depression. You see the girls.

You order one of them down the hill. They pop off. You have a round in the chamber. You pull the round and you eject the rack. And Richard Allen's response to this theory is, I didn't kill two little girls, exclamation point. And Holman responds, what did you do? And Richard Allen says,

I went on a walk on the trail and then I went home. Holman says, evidence doesn't lie. Richard Al responds, obviously, it does. And Holman's response, do you not believe in science? Richard Allen, I believe in science. Holman, well, a scientist said

that your bullet was at the crime scene. Richard Allen, I'm trying to tell you my bullet wasn't found at the bridge or the murder scene. Holman, well, if you believe in science, then dot, dot, dot, dot, dot, Richard Allen, I'm telling you, any round found at the scene did not come from my gun. Holman, tell me, I'm all ears.

Silence. There's a moment of silence between the two of them, totally quiet, just sitting there. Richard Allen, I've got nothing to say. Holman. So you're saying you didn't have a gun on you. Richard Allen, well, I carry a gun if I'm fishing or mushroom hunting. That's the only time I carry a gun. Holman.

Okay, so were you mushroom hunting? Richard Allen, why would I be much? mushroom hunting. There are mushrooms over there, by the way, just saying, I did see them. So it's a valid question, I think. Holman, did you rack your gun on the trail? Richard Allen, I didn't have my gun that day. Holman, were you out there target practicing one day? Silence. Holman, I'm just trying to figure it out. I know where mushrooms grow and fish. Why carry it then, Richard Allen? Because you're out and you don't know who you're going to run into to protect yourself. Holman, I'm not making this up. I'm not lying to you.

Richard Allen, you obviously are. Holman, I'm not making this up. You tell me you watch a dateline, and I'm telling you the truth. Holdman, item 16 is the round and it compared to your gun. Richard Allen, you're saying it happened, but I'm telling you there is no way it happened. Holman, you think I made this up? Richard Allen, what do you want me to say? Holman, tell me how I'm making it up.

Richard Allen, I never said you made it up. I'm not saying your line. saying there is no way that my round was found at the crime scene. Holman, I can't make this up. You and I both know that. Then there's a bunch I miss, honestly, because it got really heated. And then Holman leaves again. And then he returns and he offers to bring in Kathy Allen, who is outside the room.

And he also offers Richard Allen to let him smoke. And Holman leaves. Then he comes in and he offers to get Kathy again. And then his phone rings. and we hear that on the video like his phone ringing. So he says, look, with medications, people make bad decisions, even good people. And he says, she doesn't think I'm making anything up. Only one person can know.

And that's, oh, Holman says this about Kathy. So Kathy isn't in the room yet. He says, look, even medications, people make bad decisions, even good decisions. And then he says she meaning Kathy, look, Kathy doesn't think I'm making anything up. and only one person could know and that's you. And then Richard Allen responds, oh, God, I didn't do anything. I didn't kill two little girls. I didn't help someone kill two little girls.

I never even saw them before. That's when Kathy walks in. And I don't know if Holman is in the room or not, but I didn't see him in this moment. It looked like Kathy and Richard were completely alone at this moment. And I wouldn't be surprised if they were. So I think that Kathy and Richard were alone at this moment. So she walks in, of course there's a camera, but they're giving him alone time. they walk in and she hugs Richard

and it is a very long hug. They embrace and then Richard states to her, I'm so sorry. And then they let go of one another and they look at each other. They sit down and he says, they actually believe that I did it. I can't believe it.

Kathy's quiet. And then she actually says something, but she is so quiet. I cannot hear what she's saying. Like she's very softly speaking to Richard Allen in this room. She says, I know. Oh, and then he responds to her, I know. I can't explain something that I don't understand. And then he looks at his wife.

You know me. You know this is something I didn't do. I know you know that. And I know you know that I know. And Kathy is crying. Richard Allen says, I don't know what to say other than I don't know because it's impossible. I don't need to try to convince you. I know that you know me. They talk a little bit more. Kathy says, how did your gun get out there? They think you did it. There's tears and it's inaudible. I can't understand what Kathy's saying in the video. Richard Allen says, I can't explain it.

It's impossible. More tears inaudible. And then in the courtroom, Kathy watching this, watching her and her husband has real tears, she is very upset in the courtroom. Richard Allen says, I get what they're saying. Then Kathy says this on the video. They say they knew it was you,

that you were on the court. the bridge. Richard Allen says to Kathy, I told them I was on the bridge. I told them I was on the first trestle. Richard Allen, I love you, baby. She responds, I love you too. Kathy asks him more questions. I can't completely hear him. Richard Allen says to her, this is exactly what I would never want for you. I'm not going to say it's something I didn't do when I didn't do it. And then he says, I knew you know, I know that you know I didn't do this. All I can say, honey, is inaudible, they are going to do whatever they are going to do. I'm sorry you have to hurt.

I'm sorry I'm going through it. You know I care about what people think and I try not to. She says, I know. They're trying to talk about my anxiety and shit. And I've been dealing with that for seven to eight years my whole life. They want me to admit I did it. I'm not going to say I did something I didn't do. You tell me because I don't do.

I don't understand that. I told them I carry a gun when hunting or fishing in the woods. But I don't even remember the last time I carried it. Kathy cries in Audible. I get that, he responds to her. I get what they are saying. But there is no way. I cannot explain something.

Then they actually both stare at each other for a long time in silence. It's actually, it was kind of moving. Like they just looked at each other and said, stared, like sort of understanding the heaviness of this. Then Richard Allen says to Kathy, they want to make you come in here and make you believe I did it. You know me too well. You know that I couldn't do this.

Then he says, don't worry about me. Okay, so then it's redacted. And when it comes back on, Kathy is gone. So Kathy's gone. It comes back. And Holman comes back in. And it gets really, really heated at this point. and I was not able to get everything.

But I'll just explain. It gets really, really he did like every other word is the F word. I'll share some of them, but not all of them because it was like, I mean, even I was like, like, did we really need. It was just funny. Like, okay. So Holman walks back in and the first thing he says is you were fucking there, rich.

Now you're going to drag your fucking wife and daughter in this because you're too fucking, I didn't get the last word. The evidence clearly, and then Richard Allen responds, no, it doesn't. And Holman responds, it fucking does. I'm saying we've had this fucking round in the lab.

I can't explain something. I don't understand. It's not possible. It was taken. It was photographed. You think I effing threw it down there? The effing, Effin, explained it to me.

Can you let me and my wife have a time? Holman leaves. And then he says, you're putting your effing wife and daughter through this. Audible sobs from Richard's father now in the courtroom. That is the first I've seen. So remember, watching this entire thing, sitting next to Kathy is Richard's father.

And I look over and I see him just crying and I hear him crying. It was really heavy. And he is still sitting next to Kathy, his daughter-in-law. He hugs and then in the video, Kathy comes back into the video. She wasn't there during that like screaming match. Now he's back in.

Exactly, duty, Ron. He hugs Kathy in the video. So this was an interesting moment. So Kathy comes back in and he hugs Kathy in the video. But Kathy does not hug him back. Now I do want to point out though that she is holding her purse. So women, the whole purses know that sometimes you can't easily hug someone with a purse. So I'll give her that.

But I do want to point out, she comes back into the video. They're alone in the room. He hugs her, embraces her, and she does not put her arm that I can see around him. But she's holding a purse. She does not have back. There's a brief kiss. She leaves. Holman comes back in yelling and screaming, like literally walking back in yelling and screaming.

He goes, I'm effing pissed off. and then Richard said, leave my wife out of this. You are going to pay for what you did to my wife. That was in one moment. And that's when Holman says, I'm effing pissed off. And Richard Allen says,

I'm pissed off. This is on you. The jury has to ask. Then there is actual screaming, like screams and slamming fists. And it's mostly Holman. I mean, Richard Allen's yelling too,

but it's like home, F this, F that, you know, so the point we're like, you know how we can't. hear anything in the courtroom, it was all of a sudden like, oh my gosh, it's too loud, too much, and it cuts. Because it was so loud at the end of the video and we couldn't hear it,

Judge Goal reads the rest of the arrest. And that was interesting. So Judge Goal reads the transcript. I couldn't get it so it so quick, but she says that something about the fucking police, like this is Judge Goal quoting it. It was so intense. And then just to have Judge Judge Cole has this very calm voice. She's very soft-spoken, very quiet. She'll say, sustain or, you know, whatever, except for when she doesn't. And then so just to have a reading in that very calm voice, like this very intense end of the argument was like a really interesting, like using, you know, quoting it verbatim, using

the F word, sharing what was said until Richard Allen was detained. The arrest happens. and that was the break for lunch. And I run back out. I do my lunch live. Someone mentioned I'm very biased. The best part about this, guys, I haven't said anything that wasn't stated in court today.

I am just reading what was in court. I think this case needs more journalists and less, yeah. So I am being a journalist and bringing you what is in court. I mean, I'm doing my best. I'm not perfect, but I'm trying. And thanks for all your efforts. Do you Ron. Thanks for sharing what you.

you know as hired law enforcement, NYPD, and everyone else in here that's an expert on this case. So I came out, did my lunch live and I was like, you guys, it's wild, what you did. Oh, but after lunch was wild. It was wild. Okay. So after lunch, we have a new witness. So we have a new witness. This is the first of six after lunch. Again, we were almost, we were there after 6 p.m. This is John Gallabo, G.A.L. I B-A-U. So if I mispronounce that, forgive me. Right. Exactly. So this is the Indiana Department of Corrections employee. This person comes on. So he works at the Indiana Department of Corrections. He explains a lot of background. I'll explain it now and just, you know, he explains. So he's the warden. Okay. And so they start with the warden of where Richard Allen was held. And again, yeah, the state presenting their witnesses. And the state, They bring him on. And so it is McLean doing the questioning.

And he starts by saying, so was this where Richard Allen was held? And they say yes. And was he in a cell by himself. And yeah, he was in a cell by himself. It was a 12 foot by 8 foot cell. McLean asks, are they all the same size? And they said, yes, all of the cells are a same size. This was in an observation cell due to S-Watch.

Guys, I'm going to have to call it S-watch. You guys all know what that is. I need to respect YouTube's rules. And so I'm not trying to downgrade what S-watch is, but when you're in prison and there's S-watch self-harm, okay? And I'm going to have to call it S-watch. Forgive me. So he was on S-watch, and there was a bed and a bed frame and a mattress,

and he was allowed to shower three times a week. week and he had a toilet and he was provided three sets of clothing and he was provided clean clothes three times a week he had an electronic tablet he had apps on the tablet music on the tablet he made phone calls on the tablet or could make phone calls on the tablet he had recreation time five times a week he was seen by medical personnel daily uh on s watch he was afforded face to face with family twice others were not allowed that so they said said he was allowed two face to faces with his family while others were not. He was in a place again where people there were observe him.

So they're called S companions. So when they're self-harmed, that's a concern. There are S-companions that help to watch those on S-watch. They originally, as many people have complained, which I get it, and the defense made a complaint. They used to have inmates do this as part of this S-companion program. but they did switch it to correctional officers. And we're going to hear from a lot of those today.

By the way, this witness, John, he was interesting. He's bald. He's tall. He's in a suit. He has a tie on. He's got a pin. He looks very professional. And he was very non-emotional.

Like the most stoic witness I've ever seen on the stand so far. he would say yes, sir, no, sir, direct answers, but probably not even with that much emotion, just like, no, sir, yes, sir, nope, yes. He had a presence, and he was just very direct. So as McLean continues his questioning, he says that they changed the S companions to correctional officers due to privacy, and the warden saw him daily. He was quiet at first, but he changed from not being so. quiet on the very day that he got his legal mail. And he's questioned more, what does that mean?

And the warden explains that the day he got his legal mail, he was ripping it up. He was cleaning his face in the toilet. He was defecating in his cell. And that is when he changed to correctional officials then. And then he saw some, I don't know, he saw a few times a week. I don't, I forgive me, I must not have gotten that whole sentence. miss that one, forgive me, something a few times a week. Oh, he saw his attorney. He requested to speak to him. I've got it. I know what it is. The warden. He saw the warden a few times a week because Richard Allen requested to speak to him, the man John Gallabo that is testifying. So he requested to speak to John and said he wanted to confess what he did. And he, according to John,

this twice in person with him, and then in notes to him. And he would request a chaplain from me, John stated, Warden John, or request a Bible from him. And then he said that the March 5th, 2023 request from Mr. Allen came in the form of a note, and it stated, I am ready to officially confess to killing Libby and Abby and tell the family's sorry. Now, just so you know, throughout the entire afternoon, the jury is seeing all of these notes. The gallery is not. I could not see these notes. I do want to show you a really interesting tweet or what do we call it now X's, an XE X, a little XE that was X'd out that I think explains. It's actually, you'll see. One second. This is what I believe.

looked like what the jury saw. So this was posted last week. Angela states, today our team at Fox 59 was able to view hundreds of documents, depositions, exhibits, etc., involved with the Delphi murder case. Our team had to fight hard over many weeks to get access. One of the highlights is a prosecution exhibit of Richard Allen's handwritten confession to the murders of Abby Williams and Libby German. Our team got permission from special judge Marianne Vorhees to make and use this recreation on air and online.

Below is a recreation of it. Our team took special care to make it look as similar to the original as we could. Alan writes that he is ready to confess to killing Abby and Libby and to tell the families he is sorry. That was posted October 22nd. I did retweet it. It was under the last tweets. Oh, sorry, Exie. and I'm bringing it up now because it is my assumption that this is the note that the jury saw today or the original, not the re, you know, not the recreation of it because that is verbatim what is stated here.

I am ready to officially confess to killing Libby and Abby and tell the family sorry. So just wanted to point that out. So he brings that up. The jury is seeing a note that I assume looks like this. And then the warden John says, he told me that he used a box cutter. And then he disposed of the box cutter in a dumpster in CBS. He was not changed any treatment after these confessions.

And John, Warden John, observed Richard Allen throughout his stay. And then we had a cross-examines. Question from the cross exam. And so by the way, I didn't state this earlier. Forgive me, this is the Westville Correctional Facility. You'll learn all about it. Rosie did all defense cross today. And McLeeland did all the state's questioning.

So if I ever say defense, you can just know who it is. It's Rosie. If I'm talking about the state or the prosecution, it's McLean today. They did everything today. They both did a very good job. So Rosie says, so he landed. in your facility due to a safety order. This is where Warden John gets very short and sweet.

He goes, correct. And he said, and this is a medium correctional facility. And he says, medium to maximum. And you're the warden of the prison? Yes. And Rosie says, and usually the people, this usually houses people that are convicted, but your job is to keep them safe and it falls on you.

Warden John, yes. People are there for murder. Yes. Are? Yes. Robbery? Yes. Arson?

Yes. It has a maximum facility there. Correct. Is Westville an outdated facility at this time? Actually, it is one of the newest facilities. Going back a little bit, Rosie says, is Westfield an outdated facility at this time? No, it's one of the newest facilities. Rosie, but they are shutting down and building a new one.

Answer, yes. So it's not suitable? answer, it's suitable. There's a pick of a Westville correctional facility right here. Prosecution states, objection, they don't see relevance, but judge does not sustain the objection. Rosie shows a map of the correctional facility unit showing the most secure, showing it's the most secure correctional facility in Indiana. Ward and John, actually, it's just one of them, one of three. It is very secure. No, sorry, it was Rosie that said. it's very secure answer pretty good you punish them there warden i wouldn't say punish they're convicted

you refer to this as loosely you you say punish them loosely but you refer to it as the whole he says oh that's what he said i wouldn't say punish they're convicted each pod rosy says has 50 to 60 units yes by the way i've got to go back when he stated they're convicted i would have been a great time for Rosie to say, but my client wasn't convicted. Because I think that is a big issue here, right, is that Richard Allen is not a convicted felon at this time. But that might be a little teaser later on he does that. So, but he didn't get it in here. Question. Each pod has 50 to 60 units. Yes. And by the way, I'm like literally quoting Ward and John. Like he two, one to two word answers were his typical. So oftentimes, like, not even a full sentence. So a lot of these are direct quotes from

Ward and John. Rick was in a pod S center. Correct. When you put someone in a cell and it's for, you know, S or self-harm watch, they're there for something days. And unfortunately, I didn't get that. I put blank days. I don't know what it is. Answer from Ward and John, yes. Then the other cells are empty for the people who need it? Answer, correct. Richard Allen's mattress was bolted on the floor. Answer. Actually, it was lifted. It was bolted off of the floor. How long have you, oh, he's been the warden at bestville for five years? You've been the warden at Westville for five years? Yes. And he was held for over a year. Yes. Has anyone else that's ever been innocent been held there? Answer, not that I believe. But he was on

S-watch, yes. So was there anything that showed he was capable of self-harm? Answer, he came to us on S-watch. Was Rich a unique criminal? No. But he came on S-watch, yes. And so you must have looked at his history. I didn't. I have 3,000 prisoners. But there's a camera watching them 24 hours a day. Yes. And there are lights and are on there all the time due to S-watch. answer well we dim the lights at times and outside of the window he's looking at what and i don't hear what he's looking at but clearly it's not a view it's not a cell with a view there is a toilet by the bed yes it's to the right of it yes the other side of this prison is general population and they yell but mr allen is in a space all on his own and he has no social contact answer he has no physical

contact. By the way, this is what I call a jury tennis match. They are looking at Rosie. They're looking at the warden. Rosie Warden. Rosie Warden. They are in. They are in the zone. He has no desk and no chair. No.

Richard Allen is not in general pop. No. Rick. Rick gets recreation five days a week? Yes. I write again. Such a stoic witness. There are four walls and a screen. Is it far? Is it too far to call this a cage? Oh, they're referring to the rec room.

So the rec room has four walls, a screen. Is it too far to call it a cage? Answer, I'd call it a rec room. But this is so small. He goes, it's a prison. When you are on suicide watch, there are no board games or cards. He actually has games on his tablet and movies that he can pay for. But he has, does he have phone calls to his family? yes, he has phone calls, but they are recorded. And he has monitored tablet use, yes. But there were times that he didn't have a tablet. Answer, yes, after he broke his. But you told him he might not have one for a month.

Yes. Well, Rick's S-watch was reduced because he had constant supervision and the levels changed. Answer, no, he was on constant observation. Well, you issued a kimono or a gown for him. him to wear? Answer, it was a gown that covers the shoulders to the knees. Well, do you recall days that they were there? I think he means his attorneys. And he says, I recall a few. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet,

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Oh, did he have handcuffs? Yes, for transportation. And shackles, yes. How has he restrained? answer. He had a belly chain and a lead for transport. A witness. Oh, and then Rosie says, you mean he had a leash? And the witness actually laughed at that. It was the only time I saw him break. So here's this stoic witness. The one time he broke was when Rosie said, so a leash.

And Ward and John laughed and says, it's a lead. And Rosie says, well, it's like a leash. And Warden John says, no, it's not. And Rosie says, well, it's not. And Rosie says, well, it's nylon length strap. And then there's an objection by the state. And they said, asked and answered, and it was sustained. Question, do you get mail? Yes, it's scanned. We went there with, it's scanned. Yeah, we get mail. It scanned. And then Rosie says, well, we went there with a discovery, and it took two weeks to get to him. Answer, it was 400 pages of discovery. It was a lot of pages to scan. Well, we were restricted. We couldn't even take our phones in as it as attorneys. And then there's an objection, objection to relevance.

And Rosie and the defense argued that their phones impacted their ability to communicate with him. And the judge overruled the state's objection and the defense was able to continue. So they got that phone. They were not able to take their phones in with them. Question from Rosie, the defense. Well, you recorded us with him while we spoke to him. And they answered, he answered yes, because it was a visitation. Well, twice used a stun gun on it.

He didn't say stun gun. I don't know what he said. But Ward and John referred to it as a zap, and I missed what it was called above. So I don't know. Don't quote me on stun gun. That was never said that I know of. There's something referring to as a zap.

Maybe Duty Ron or other law enforcement in the chat can tell me if I'm guessing right. So they said, well, you zapped him twice. Or you zapped him while he was in there. And Warden John respond twice. When he refused to remove his hands. so that we could secure his door. He was non-compliant. But you zapped him.

We asked him several times and he wasn't compliant. And that's what he said. So you zapped him. He responded. It was a safety issue. Was he treated like all of the others? And then the answer to that by Ward and John is he was treated better. That was a moment.

That was interesting. So Rosie says, was he treated like all the others? He was treated better. Tell us about S companions. It's a program at the prison. And did you ever finally remove him? Warden John's answer, I removed him when he got his legal mail for his protection.

And the same day he got his legal mail, he made a switch the same day he got his legal mail. So in other words, I think that maybe they didn't remove him from the S program. I might be reading that wrong. But they're talking about removing him from something. They're saying that something happened when he got his legal mail. And they're referring to him

like his behavior changing. And this was, oh, so maybe they did remove him. It was right around the time he started acting up. Right. So did you generate a report on the day that you got this legal letter? Answer, if I get a request, I turn it over. But you never prepared a report. Objection asked and answered, sustained.

Have you ever gotten a log sheet from a criminal who is incriminated? I don't know the answer to that one. I think it was probably, I don't know. Question. Had law enforcement ever come up to help because he was confessing something? Correct. Due to his health, did you have to talk to Dr. Walla? By the way, Dr. Walla is, we know that she's his psychologist.

So were law enforcement, did they ever come up to help because he was confessing? Correct. And due to his health, did you have him talk to Dr. Walla? Answer, oh, sure. Did no one ever check on him beyond that? not that I recall. Richard Allen was moved, and it wasn't my choice. Answer, yes, he was moved.

You were on his team with administrative docs and people. And then he said he was not on a team. Answer, well, it was not on a team. I would pop in and we would move a lot of the inmates every day. Question by Rosie, can prison be hard on people? Answer, it's an adjustment. Especially for people who haven't been to prison before Rosie asks? Answered by John Warden.

It's an adjustment, yes. Rosie, did you review Richard Allen in his cell? Objection outside the scope of crime. Rosie, do you know when Richard Allen received a legal letter? And did you put him on S watch? Answer, Dr. Walla is the one who put him on S watch. It came from his medical supervisor to keep him safe. He came to us on an S order, and then he was put on S watch.

watch. I did put, admittedly, so I do want to point out that admittedly, the tone is making Rosie not so great. I want to point this out because I made a note of it here. Rosie is being like super passionate and like kind of like outraged. And when you match that with this like

extreme stoic one word answers by Ward and John, I don't know if it was the best look for Rosie. Like I think he's done better. But it could just like, this was a really interesting witness. Like he was just like, boom. So I just want to share that like Rosie is asking this, like very outraged, very like upset in he is not getting any emotion back from the witness. Just like these one word answers. So he's saying like, he came to you on S watch and then

he was put on S watch. So kind of like that. And then Ward and John says he was put on S watch by medical supervisor to keep him safe. So it's sort of like that back and forth. This wasn't interesting back and forth. So after that, they asked if there were any jury questions and there were none. And I just said at the end, you know, the witness kept his cool throughout the entire time. And it was, yeah, that was that. The next witness is Ethan Dr. Dr.a N-G. Forgive me if I mispronounce that. We'll call him Ethan. He admittedly, my heart went out to him. He He was young and he looked a bit timid. He is an employee at Westville and he's been there for two and a half years.

He did his training to become a correctional official officer and age group. He worked all over the facility and he knows Richard Allen as an inmate because he was placed on an S watch with an officer. So I'm going to explain that the next witnesses until the end of the day all have the same background. They were all placed on S watch. They were his S companion. So Ethan explains that he had to sit in front of the cell and log all events throughout the day. 15 minute log. In other words, they had to do a log every 15 minutes.

And then to remind you, because we have heard that there was a time where inmates were being the S companions, these are not inmates. Every single one of the witnesses until the end of the day are employees at the Westville and most of them are correctional officials. We'll go over each of there. But they are employees. So their job is to sit in the cell and log all events throughout the day, especially when someone is on S watch.

And every 15 minutes, they have to put a log of what is happening. And they submit that every 15 minutes throughout their entire shift. So on April 5th, 23, they admit an exhibit to the jury. And again, the gallery never saw any of what they admitted to the jury today. So all we had to do was listen, heart. A lot of their voices were quiet and write down what we could hear. But the jury is getting all of their logs. So every log that these gentlemen today and these witnesses today had are being given to the jury. So they admit the exhibit. And he explained that on April 5th,

2023, a 6 a.m. shift change. He starts watching Richard Allen. And by the way, during this witness, I checked with all my neighbors. There was a little confusing as to whether there was a March 5th and an April 5th. Because at first it seemed like there was an April 5th log that was important

and a March 5th log. In the end, two of us concluded that the 3-5 was a mistake and they were all supposed to be April 5th. Take that for what it's worth. I'm going to say

the April 5th was all one day on this log. But they did mention March. So April 5th at 836 a.m. This was said allegedly by Richard Allen and was recorded in the log. Coming to prison cured my anxiety and depression and allowed me to find God. And then at 9.52 a.m. on that same day, he says, I want to confess to killing Abby and Libby,

and I want to apologize to their families. Ethan says that I'm no mental health professional, but we do have training to deescalate. That's asked. by the cross. So now this is Rosie. Do you have the training to decide if someone is faking it? No. Can you identify Richard Allen in this room? Yes, he's in there. He's wearing khakis and a shirt. So Rosie asked, was he in pretty bad shape then? And then he responds, I am no mental health professional, Ethan says. Rosie, well, he was pretty emotional. Ethan, he had emotions that day. Rosie, at 8.46 AM, he states that the prison helped cure my depression and anxiety. Answer. Yeah, it says that, but I'm no mental health. He said that, but I'm no mental health professional.

Rosie, I think I can't read my writing. Oh, so, oh, but the mental, I can read it now. The mental health professional rarely came like maybe once a week. Ethan's answer, actually, they came quite often. Nothing further, Your Honor. Now, the state comes back to ask Ethan a couple more questions. Ethan is no health professional. He only knows triggers. Like often when an inmate talks to a family, they might go into the cell and skip a meal. That's only really what he knows and is aware of.

So did Richard Allen do that after talking to his wife? Ethan says, yes, he did do that. And that's that. The next witness, the next witness is Michael Clemens. Michael Clemens is with the Westville Correctional Facility. He's been there for four years. He did the two-month program that most of these young men did. Not all of them are young men, but most of them were.

And by young, I mean, looking younger than me, like 20s and 30s. And he had the day shift from 6 a.m. to 6 p.m. And he was in A5, and he was placed at Westville. He was an S-company that watched Richard Allen and documented and filled out paperwork and turned in, that he turned into his lieutenant the day he saw Mr. Allen. Exhibit 294, Michael filled it out. And Michael recognizes the sheet as it's being submitted as evidence and given to the jury. On April 17, 2003, according to Michael Clemens, Richard Allen stated,

God, I am so glad that no one gave up on me after I killed Abby and Libby. And then he is asked again, did he say that? Yes. And then at 801 a.m. I, Richard, Matthew, Allen, killed Abby and Libby all by myself. No one helped me. And then, oh, so that was at 7.30 a.m. And then at 801 a.m. quote, I'm not crazy. I'm only acting like I'm crazy. End quote. They asked, did you write all of this down immediately? He states, yes, I did. We are always. always told to write everything down immediately. Michael explains. How long were you his S-companion? I would observe Richard Allen every single time I worked, every shift. What was his behavior like? It was normal. Did his behavior ever change? Yes, he started acting different. How different? Random things. Like, I don't know. He was kind of hesitant to say he actually got very hesitant to answer any of these questions. And then it was cross with Rosie.

He explained, did Richard Allen ever say what he did? Yes, Michael says. He said he killed them, but he never said how. Correct. He never said how. And at one point he said, God, yes.

Question, I'm not crazy. I'm only acting like I'm crazy. Was that in response to inmates? Michael says, I don't recall. Answer, can I refresh your memory? Yes. So he had something to Michael to read. And he refreshes his memory and says, yes, I'm pretty sure that's why then.

A bunch of people were yelling. So then he continues. So in fact, were some inmates actually harassing Richard Allen? Michael, no. Well, were they telling him to kill himself? And he says, maybe? I don't know. Rosie then keeps pushing.

Michael doesn't really know or think that he was harassed. Michael does know Dr. Walla, yes. And you assumed that he was in normal mental health, Richard Allen? Yes. Well, were you there when he was tased that day? Yes. Well, it's a secure facility in Indiana, right? Yes.

You said it started out normal, but things changed. Did you ever see him banging his head or eating his feces? No. Rosie. But he would go from acting normal to acting crazy? Are there any questions from the jury? No. The next witness after lunch, witness another Michael.

This witness, though, is witness Michael Roberts. He's at Westfield Correctional Facility, though. He has the other training like the other first two gentlemen did. He has a shift from 6 a.m. to 6 p.m. And he was assigned to Richard Allen as his S companion. He logs and has docks filled. and he fills the logs with everything that Richard Allen says. And they ask him if he noted it in real time.

He says yes. Do your reports reflect that? He says yes. And they submit state exhibit 295. They have logs of everything that day. He says that he is the author. He sees the dates and times. And then they say,

let's draw your attention to this April 13th at 1245 p.m. And it says, quote, dear Lord, forgive me for molest. Abby, Libby, and Chris. Then he states, Dear Lord, forgive me for molesting Abby, Libby, Kevin,

and Chris. And then another one, another thing later. Quote, I want to confess. I know a lot more. End quote. And then at 8.15 a.m. There's a quote from Richard Allen.

What more do I got to do? End quote. At April 23rd. 2024. So that would be just this year at 2 p.m. Quote, I killed Abby and Libby. My wife wasn't involved and I would like to confess, end quote. On April 26th, he says, can I talk? Can you listen? I killed Abby and Libby. And then another one later that day. How can I prove I'm sane? How can I prove dot, dot, dot, I did not get the rest of that one. Sorry guys. They were very quiet. Another one. Why am I doing this? Do you know God?

I killed Abby and Libby, end quote. That was June 18th. Excuse me. That was June 18th. June 21st, log. Do I make you mad? Have I told you about my wife? Should I lay down? I killed Abby and Libby. I look over at Kathy this moment and she's shaking her head like this, looking down. And then this Michael, the second Michael of the witness today said that he was normal, coherent, talkative, insane. He changed, though, and it was signs he recognized, like, more outrageous. Richard Allen started doing things that would make you gasp and get his attention. Like, he would act up when we weren't looking, or when we were looking. He would act up when we were looking. He would not act up when we weren't looking. The jurors are taking notes at this time. The chaplain would

come and he would talk to Richard Allen. The defense then has an objection, hearsay, and the judge sustains the defense's objection. Michael continues. He would talk about his family and what he wanted. And then he identified Richard Allen in the room. Rosie then has crossed and then he questions this new Michael. And he says, January to April, he was normal. And then his attorneys came in and he acted up. Yes, at least four times. The attorneys would come in, Michael explains, sometimes with an intern. And they show exhibit now 295, a number of things that Richard Allen claims he did, that he molested Dawn, he molested Abby, he molested Libby, he molested Chris, and he molested Kevin.

And that's when he started smearing feces all over his cell. Question, oh, was he a pain in the butt, Rosie asks? answer yeah sometimes doing that for attention it's hard on all of us question well do all of the inmates do that for attention answer not all of them well you say there's like a difference between eating feces and smearing feces answer yes one takes more to do like more effort i assume the eating of it rosy asks well if you told me he was eating his feces would your opinion change of him his answer is well I would need to observe it for my opinion to change question were there a lot of inmates yes there were a lot in that pod

and question would they smear feces and when they smeared feces would you not do anything and his answer is well I didn't give it attention so you didn't call anyone for her help when Richard Allen was smearing feces answer no I called someone right away and Rosie says but nobody came for two hours answer well know someone actually did come right away, a mental health person. And then did he tell you that his grandma molested him? Yes.

And by the way, I heard grandma molested him. My neighbor heard grandma molest him. And another person thought they heard grandpa. I feel pretty confident about grandma, but because of that one person, grandma, but because of that one person that said grandpa, let's just say grandparent. So Richard Allen claims a grandparent molested him to this, Michael, yes. And he told you that he wanted K. AFC? Yes. And he wanted his last rights read. Yes. Lawyers can visit, correct? But they need to be monitored?

Yes. Do you recall Richard Allen tapping his head on the wall? Yes. And you gave him no sympathy? Michael says, I never said that I had no sympathy for him. Well, do you think it was unusual for him to be tapping his head on the wall? Answer, no, it was actually a pretty normal tapping. It wasn't hitting the wall hard. It is actually common for someone who doesn't have a lot to do in their cell to maybe try tapping. But then was he bruised? Rosie asks. Answer, yes. When I noticed that he was bruised, I got some medical attention right away. And no S companions had issues. Did you say the RA accepted what was happening? Yes. Rosie asks, was he accepting that he was thrown in the more secure system? And did he accept that he had to sleep on a concrete floor? His answer is he didn't have to sleep on the concrete floor. He had a mat.

Well, did he accept that he had a toilet by his bed? Answer, well, he did, but nobody could see and he had a privacy. Did he accept that he didn't have clothes, only a gown? Answer, that's what happens when you're on S-watch. A new note at 1.30 p.m., I'm not sure of the date. Forgive me, I don't have the date here. But here's another note. This is at 1.30 p.m. quote, God, I'm so sorry for wasting your time. I will never smoke or cheat on my wife again. I'm a Libra. And then at 8.45 a.m.

I don't know what day again. You quotes, I swear, I never cheated on a cigarette. I thought I was eating pizza. Question, well, would you agree putting someone in a cell like this would be detrimental to their mental health? Answer, it depends on the person. Rosie pushes the witness. And then there's an objection, asked and answered, and it sustained.

Question, did the mental health official come? The mental health expert came often, and they brought crayons, and they took them to the rec room. Rosie says, oh, do you mean the cage? Answer, no, it's a cubicle. Well, what's it like? Answer, it's a square room. Questions for the juror. Here are the questions that the jurors have for Michael.

Is everything you record on your log, on audio or video. recording? Answer is yes it is. Are they saved these audio or video recordings? Yes, they are in the database. What would happen? A wonder asks if someone does have feces on their face. And he explains that they would get to shower and that they would shower in a separate room that's private and they would help wash them. When would he not be washed if on S watch? And I couldn't hear and answer to that question. And then it was afternoon recess. And after the break, we came back. It was 4.30. So I thought we had maybe like one other witness. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions,

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Next witness, after the break, started at 4.30, is witness Officer James Early. Officer James Early has a very long gotty. It reminded me of Richard Allen in his interviews. James Early is a correctional officer. And he works at Westville, and he was R.A.'s, Richard Allen's, a type of RA in my notes, Richard Allen's suicide companion. And he would rotate several months.

And as a suicide companion, he would also fill out this paperwork every 15 minutes. And Exhibit 296 is from April 8, 2023, and April 9th and May 1, 20203. April 8th at 433, he says, I am ready to confess. I swear to God, I killed Abby and Libby. May 1st at A50, James explains that Richard Allen walks back and forth, mimicking James Early's behavior, sort of like copying him or mimicking him, and states, I confess to the warden and Dr. Walla. And they put this confession down in real time. I don't know what that means.

Now, if the defense has turned to question this witness, they say, standing in front of a toilet, feces, rolling it in a ball, took a drink from the toilet. There's hot cess, and he's yelling, fox trot, foxy lady, fuck me. On April 8th, he says he has a bottle of hot sauce and he's urinating on his map and he's mumbling. On April 9th, May 1st, he's pacing and mumbling. On May 1st, he's awake. And so is the staff every 15 minutes later he was asleep. That was it.

I mean, that was like, Rosie was kind of like explaining all that. And then there was just like, yeah, that happened. So it was like a back and forth. And they're like, yep, those are some more logs. That's the more logs I've got that I have on him. So now it's the prosecution, the state's turn again. And they asked James Early, did his bizarre behavior seem orchestrated? And James Early's response is he had a very normal look.

And he would say, yes, sir, and thank you. And then all of a sudden he would decide to drool that day. But then he would come out of it if he had questions. And then the defense. got another chance. There was a cell door and it was small and you had a strain to see, right? Answer, no, I could actually see pretty good. Well, you questioned the authenticity of his actions.

Yes, I do. Did you know that he was banging his head? Yes, I didn't know that, James Early says. Well, did you know, Rosie asks that he was defecating in his hands and smearing it? Answer, I saw it. Yes. And did he use this for attention? and he responds, it's something that people do.

And I have seen people do it. People do it to get what they want. It starts to permeate. And it's a case-by-case basis, but when it starts to smell, people come in and they get to shower, but mostly, oh, no, he did not say get to shower, excuse me. It permeates. It's a case-by-case basis.

Mostly they get what they want. Anyone under that environment long enough could have some issues, I think. That was an important part for the defense. He did state. that anyone under that environment long enough could have some issues. I think anyone under that environment long enough could have some issues, I think. Question, if you knew that he had severe mental health issues, would you have treated him differently? Answer, it wouldn't matter as we'd treat everyone the same.

The jury's questions, do you know how long Richard Allen was on suicide watch? Answer, I'm not sure how long, but he was in the S watch cell when he first got here. was he in the same cell for 13 months? Yes, to my knowledge. What is he allowed to have in the cell? And he explains he's allowed to have a tablet, Wi-Fi, a phone, reading material. He can ask for a Bible.

He has a Bible. He can have commensary for extra food in addition to the food they serve. He can have extra clothing. A TV is available, but he is not sure if Richard Allen had one. Rosie asks, could he get a phone like other offenders. Oh, this was a great moment for the defense. Okay, that was the most important one. So he's explaining all the things that he has. And then the last thing he says is, and he could get a phone like all the other offenders.

And Rosie says, but he's not an offender. That was a good moment. That he asked, does he have S clothes? What are it S clothes like, Rosie asked. Is it like a caveman costume almost? And he actually agrees that, yeah, it is a bit like a caveman costume. S clothes are. And now a new witness, John Miller. So we've had two John witnesses the afternoon and two Michael, and then a James. So this is the second John, John Miller. So John Miller explains that he's familiar with R.A. Also, John Miller has a goatee.

It's a trend today, like the long goatee. Everyone's doing it. So he was his suicide companion for Richard Allen on 123, the S companion watch sheet, on 4-923 states. So again, this is John Miller. Oh, so it states, I killed Abby and Libby, and then he started flushing paper. That's what the log says.

So he states that and then he starts flushing paper. At 7.04 AM, it says, the funniest joke is how I killed them. And then he started shouting foul language. And then he states, I got what I deserve and hope I burn in hell for what I did. And then he states, another one, I'm sorry for what I did for killing them. And John Miller explains that during this time when he said this, he was actually crying this time in his cell.

And then he states, I'm sorry, I killed those kids. And then there's a cross-exam. and Rosie asks John Miller, was he emotionally stable? And he says, yes. Well, you testified that you did not hear the vulgarity that you were only told of it. I don't know what that. Sorry. Confusing moment.

Guys, remember, this was after a very long day, hand cramps, and they were very quiet. So, okay, let me check. I got what I deserved for what I did. I hope I burned in hell for what I did. I got that one, right? I see I'm double checking my work here. So this is somebody else's note. So it was in the courtroom.

Another one is, I'm sorry for what I did for killing them, but I don't care. I killed them. So that's, yeah, I did not get the last one of that. So all I got was, I'm sorry for what I did for killing them. And I have dot, dot, dot, dot. I did not get the rest of it. According to this person, it's,

I'm sorry for what I did for killing them, but I don't care I killed them, according to this other person's note. So that would be the part I missed. Yes, he's emotionally stable. In April, John Miller explains that he started refusing more meals, and he wasn't talking in sensical ways. And it was something that John Miller had actually never seen. And, oh, Rosie asked, was it something you've never seen? And John Miller said, correct, something I've

never seen. And then Rosie said, and did he tell you that he molested his sister? And John Miller says, yes, he told me that. And did he tell you that he may have touched his sister? And did he tell you that he may have touched his daughter? He says, yes, he told me that. And did he tell you that he might have gotten an erection in his sleep over it? Yes. Did he say something about an old bear paw? Yes. Did it make any sense? No. Was there a lot of mumbling? Yes. Would you agree, Rosie asks that if someone was locked in a cell that long, it would be detrimental to their mental health? Yes. And then the state comes back on with John Miller. April 9th, he states, quote, I only killed them to give my family more time to live. I want to make sure I have this right.

Something else. I pray they will be saved. Another one. I may have touched my daughter, but I don't know. And then they ask John Miller about it. You don't get to go from being, being kind and cordial in your speech to completely changing overnight. And that's what John Miller said in response, like that he just thought there was something strange about his changing behavior, that he would share these confessions. And then he said, you don't go from being kind and cordial in your speech to completely changing overnight.

And now there's a cross. And at this moment, by the way, during the cross, Richard in the courtroom, Richard looks back at Kathy, but she isn't looking back. I mean, that might have not been on purpose. she might have been looking somewhere else, but he did look back at his wife and Kathy didn't look back or didn't notice him. The question is, was he being treated by Dr. Wallet? Yes. Do you believe he was in a state of psychosis? And the answer is,

I can't speculate. I'm not a mental health professional. Well, why was he smearing feces? He said, I don't know. I can't speculate. Was he an unusual inmate? No. The jury questions. Would it be normal for someone to like Mr. Allen, if they don't take their medication, the answer is it's possible. And then we have Brandon Fisher on the stand. Brandon Fisher was the hardest one to hear. And I was so frustrating because Brandon Fisher actually started to talk in the microphone and they actually tell all of the witnesses that do try to speak in the microphone to not speak in the microphone.

It's strange. But like they say, look, the microphone's only for the people in the back. You don't need to use it. Just raise your voice so we can hear up here. Like they do not want us in the gallery to hear, like deliberately. This happens several times today when these correctional officers will come and they'll bend over to talk in the mic just like I'm doing. You guys probably love that.

Probably sounds a lot better. And then they say, you don't need to talk in the mic. The mic's only for them back there. We just need to hear you. Just lean back. Don't talk in the mic. Raise your voice. It's like they don't want us to hear.

So let's go to Brandon Fisher. I just want to make sure I have my neighbors. I want my neighbor's notes to my friends. my friend's notes. So they so kindly let me borrow them. Brandon Fisher, June 23, 2023. He worked from November 222 to June 2023, and he was an S-companyan to Richard Allen, and he had striped black sweater on. He had the 6 p.m. to 6 a.m. shift, and he had that for months, and he watched Richard Allen every one of his shifts for four hours, or sometimes 12 hours, depending on the shift.

And he filled out logs. And on April 20th, 23, at 6 p.m. on that sheet, he said that he wanted to confess to the warden and say he is guilty. And he said it two times. And he always says it, he said. April 29th at 6 p.m. He stated, I killed two girls in Delphi with a box knife. I stole it and I threw it in the trash. And they asked, did he take meds that?

day and I couldn't hear his answer. And then in May he said something about Abby and Libby. He said Abby and Libby, oh yeah, this is important. Okay. So yeah, this is really important. So he said about Abby and Libby, this is hard. So you guys know the R word, the essay word. I'm going to say that. I've said a lot of words today, but, you know, let's try for YouTube's sake. He said, I was going to are them, not kill them, but I panicked and I killed them instead. That was a heavy one for me. So at one point, they said, is it strange to see him with feces on his face? And Brandon's response was, well, working in a prison, it's something that you'll see.

Question, did he tell you that he killed the girls? Yes. He told you he stole a box cutter? Yes. Well, do you know where he got it from? Yes. He told me CVS. Did he tell you that he wanted to write a confession?

Yes. Did he tell you that he already had written a confession? Yes. Would Richard Allen was banging his head on the door on May 18th, 23 a p.m.? Yes. Did he have a gash in his head? Yes. Some people didn't like monitoring him because they knew what he did.

did, right? And then it was objection asked and answered. This one was interesting too. So did Richard Allen tell you that he lost his virginity to the babysitter when he was 11 years old? At that moment, the witness actually kind of laughs. And he says, that's correct. And then there was a, what I think I heard something about the R word to that Richard Allen was art as a child. I talked to someone else about it, trying to clarify, someone said they couldn't figure out if Richard Allen's R as a child was the same as the losing his virginity by babysitter when he was 11 or if there was something when he was 8. But just you know, that was mentioned.

And then this one's hard. He said, and Richard Allen told you that the girls were screaming during all of this, correct? And he said, yes, that's correct. He told me the girls were screaming. Did he make comments acting like he was living in the 13 and 1400s? yes he did would he stare in your eyes yes no further questions and then the prosecution came back you know do you did you believe him when he acted crazy and he said i didn't believe it because when

you're sitting there for like four six or twelve hours a night oh he did believe it because when you're sitting there for four six or twelve hours a night what are you going to do you have conversations and he would always want to read bible verses he would rub species he would rub feces on his face and say, I won't be doing that again. And then the defense came up. Do you feel being locked up in that room for months could be detrimental to Richard Allen's mental health? And his answer was, Brandon's answer was, I would agree.

So there you go. Rosie states, if you know right from wrong, oh, this was a moment. Rosie said to Brandon, if you know right from wrong, why would you not say that you were fired? The witness looked shocked and there was a quick objection and they moved on. Don't know what that's about. Jury questions. Who is Jerome?

That is another guard at the facility. Question, could you interact? Yes, unless someone said not to. And now it is 5.50 p.m. in the courtroom. It is almost 6 o'clock in the Carroll County Courthouse and they state next witness. And we get another witness. and his name is Raymond Smith. He's a little bit older than the other gentleman that had been previously.

He has a suit and tie on. He's looking a little bit more professional and he has glasses. He's a correctional officer with over six years experience. He has eight weeks of training through the facility and his shift is 6 a.m. to 6 p.m. He was Richard Allen's S. Companion. They asked, did you do that consistently? Yes. Did you fill out the S. Companion Watch report?

Yes. and I'm 410.23 at 3.24 a.m. He licked a window. And then he said, quote, Kathy, I did it. I'm guilty. Run, Kathy, run. I did it. End quote. I look over at Kathy Allen at this time and she is shaking her head. At April 10, 2023 at 7.55 p.m. according to Raymond Smith, he, quote, I killed those two girls, so I have to kill myself. Richard Allen in the room is shaking his head when he hears that. And then I noticed, well, there's a pause and questioning Richard Allen is continuing to shake his head, rubbing his forehead between the questions kind of going like this. Then defense came up and I've got, I'm going to quote this. There's a question across. And Rosie says, did he say to you, if I fuck those girls, I fucked them, but if I killed those girls, I killed them, end quote. So why do you think he said that is Rosie's question. Did he have trouble remembering? And the answer to that is, I don't know. I just wrote

exactly what he said. At 410 to 250 a.m., he's awake and he's singing, God bless America. And then at 250 a.m., he's masturbating at his door while singing, Mamas, don't let your babies grow up to be cowboys. Kathy, Ellen is shaking her head in the courtroom. And then they explain at 405 a.m. He is singing, God bless America, I'm guilty. And then he starts running in place. And then did he tell you that he wanted to go camping and that Chris is his best friend? Yes, he did. And at 517, he started talking. In August, Rosie says, you described him as being polite and sleeping a lot. Yes. And would other offenders, would they attempt to agitate you? Yes. And then it's the state's turn again. And during the interview, when Rosie asked you those questions,

was there more that you shared? And, oh, he says, so Rosie is asking, are you sure that during the questions originally that wasn't there more that you shared? So he talked about sex with girls or killing the girls, either or it seemed like he was having trouble remembering or was he saying that it didn't matter? And the answer is he killed those girls so he was going to kill himself. he was watching full time to make sure. I was watching full time to make sure they didn't commit S. Or maybe those were two things. Or maybe it was, do I remember?

I think they read his law report and it said, and then he said, what he thought it was was that he seemed to be having trouble remembering or saying it doesn't matter. He wasn't sure what it meant. I'm getting a nod from my friend. So let me reiterate. When they brought up the, like I either F them or killed them,

what the witness is responding. was, you know, honestly, I think maybe I realized that he was having trouble remembering or he was saying it didn't matter. He doesn't know what. So I want to clarify that. I remember that too now. And then jury questions. What is an S act that requires a doctor? A jury asks. And they said, well, he is seen by mental health professionals often and we never leave him alone. So it wasn't really answered or if it was answered, I didn't hear it. And now it's after 6 p.m., right? And we have another witness. Jason Bedwell, he's been there for nine years. He's been a correctional official for nine years. He was an S-company at the correctional facility for R.A. And from 6 a.m. to 6 p.m.,

he would check on Richard Allen's mental well-being. And on 2424, so this year, 2424. At 10 a.m., he stated that I am sorry for what I did. I am sorry for killing those girls. And Jason Bedwell said that he was laying in bed, crying awake, and talking to himself. And he wrote that in the log when he stated that. During cross-exam, there was a question, was he isolated from others? The answer is, no, sir. He can speak through the walls and all the inmates do.

The question was, well, he was watched from February 24 to, I didn't get the date. And he was laying down a lot during that time, right? Jason said, correct, sir. And you made these in real time? You made these logs in real time? Correct. I did make them in real time.

And he did a lot of laying down and chilling and not much else, correct? So at 9 a.m., he took medications. At 6.30, he was eating and drinking. That is correct. And on 2, February 4th, you noted at 10 a.m. who heard a sorry for killing them. That is correct. and they were interviewed by police, is that correct?

And didn't you tell police that Rick Allen made an objection? He's trying to impeach the witness. And that's it. Are you trying to impeach the witness? And I said, yeah, yeah, trying to impeach the witness. Yeah. So then he continued. So didn't you tell police that he was curled up in a fetal position?

I did. Why don't you put it in your log? You said, well, I had no place to put it. And they explained that it was a multiple choice. and so he like marked that he's laying down. Well, couldn't you have put it early? He says in the other specifying. And he answered.

He said, I said what was available to me. I think I might be offering. So he's asking if he curled up in the fetal position. He said that he stated what was available to him. Did you tell police he would go from calm to his circle? And at 945 he's laying down. And at 10.15 he's laying down. Correct.

So you told police, you said, I'm sorry for these things that he's. I'm sorry for killing these girls. Correct. I did. Rosie said, well, you added facts. And he said, yes, I shared more of the police asked. Oh, you had time to write more. Didn't you? And he stated, no, I had no time. I was helping my federal officers. I needed to help inmates with instant and helping. I observed what I had seen at the time and I wrote what I was able to. That was a sidebar. And then the jury questions. Is this a flow sheet in in an electronic sheet. I don't know. I turned me in.

He's being monitored by audio or video at this time. And then the answer was no, he was not. Which is also interesting because my person said he always was and then he stated that one time he wasn't. That's it. We did it. We did it. Hello, Hidden Jems. It's Lauren with Hidden a True Crime podcast. As a TV reporter, I learned the art of visual storytelling. So if you're like me, you enjoy listening, but also viewing. You can actually head to our YouTube channel, Hidden True Crime, to watch these interviews. Hit the subscribe button for surprise lives and breaking news. And for exclusive content, things Dr. John and I only dare say behind a paywall,

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