Hidden True Crime - DELPHI: Richard Allen Trial Day 12 Thursday 10/31 AUDIO CONFESSIONS HEARD IN COURT

Episode Date: November 11, 2024

Lauren Matthias is inside the Courtroom in Delphi, Indiana for the trial of Richard Allen, and bringing us the very latest from Carroll County as the trial has no audio or video recording. Richard Allen is charged with murdering 13-year-old Abigail Williams and 14-year-old Liberty German in 2017. About Hidden True Crime: Lauren Matthias, a former television reporter, and her husband Dr. John Matthias, a criminal psychologist, started Hidden True Crime in 2020 with their Season, 'Beyond the Veil,' a psychological deep dive into the doomsday murders and prophet. What started as a simple conversation at their dinner table became a captivating podcast. Join the dynamic duo of Dr. John Matthias, a forensic psychologist, and Lauren Matthias, an investigative journalist, as they delve into the psychological facets of unthinkable crimes every week. Their unique perspectives and in-depth analysis offer a fresh take on true crime storytelling. Thank you for your support through sponsorships, subscribing, listening, and becoming a Patreon member at Patreon.com/HiddenTrueCrime Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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And I'm covering every day officially today. We are a day behind. We're going to cover yesterday's day in court where the prosecution rested. And then so right now, because of my traveling home, we're a day behind. I don't know I might be able to go live tonight with today's, but it might be tomorrow. I'll just always note what day it is and what day we are covering at the beginning of every live. So just know that for the first time, officially we're about 24 hours behind. But yesterday was so important. I have 41 pages of type notes and we are going to get to it to share everything that happened.

I had, I want you to know several note takers in court. We have collaborated. We have compared. We have filled in blanks and I have gone over the notes and we're going to do that together. Of course, I just always want to be transparent about what's going on. I was not in the courtroom yesterday, but I had people there for me calling me at every break and several people helping. And all I plan to do for everybody here is go through everything that took place. It was a big day. As most of you know now, they played audio confessions of Richard Allen who stated he killed the girls. So let's start. start. And yeah, official media is doing a great job. Am I breaking up every word because I have

earphones on and I thought I was good. Someone just mentioned that. Am I good? Okay, I assume everything's okay. Yeah, audio's clear. All right. Well, I won't worry about that. One person said then. Let's start. So the day started with Rosie, Defense Attorney Rosie in a gray suit, green, navy, plaid tie and blue shirt, and Baldwin in a blue shirt, striped tie, and a white shirt. McLean, the prosecution, the main prosecution attorney walked in

with a large stack of paperwork and binders. Kathy Allen is here. Was there? I sometimes read verbatim. It says is here because the notes are from there, but was there with a friend, a usual friend. Her name is Christy.

I've talked to her at 8.50 a.m. Richard Allen walks in. Lips seem to be quivering, according to one witness. The neighbor, a court, so somebody else in court says that Kathy was mouthing, it's okay, it's okay. Richard Allen is wearing a blue and white striped search. A couple people noticed Richard Allen rocking back and forth looking around the courtroom, and at one point he continues rocking with hands behind his back,

looking up with his eyes closed. and I have heard from several people in court that he was definitely had a lot more reaction today and was seeming acting a little bit more unusual. The state, so the start, the state has a movement of emissions. They exhibit 321, an affidavit for business records from the Department of Corrections. Rosie quickly objects. This is how court started, saying that it wasn't admitted. McLean says it was admitted in a three-day hearing.

the defense has it. The state moves to admit the exhibits 309, or 306 to 309. There are four photographs of Richard Allen taken from the extraction of his phone. And it is going to take Cecil's some time to get the dates of these photos. So the state would like to admit without the dates

to show what Richard Allen looked like prior to his address. And the defense ejects on relevance. Parties agree to take it up after lunch so they have time to review. And the state moves to admit exhibits 313. Now, this is seven phone calls. Exhibit 313, seven phone calls. The state wants to move to admit in it all in one zip file, and the state would also like to admit transcripts for the court and jury to

follow along. The defense actually objects to that. One of the dates of those phone calls is April 3rd, 2023, and there are three calls from that day. Call one is 312 a.m. That's between Rick or Ricky, as we're learning, his name is with his close family members, and Richard, which means Richard Allen. So if you hear Rick or Ricky throughout this, you know who we're talking about. And his parents, Janice and Marvin. And Marvin is a stepfather. Call two is between Rick and Kathy, his wife, who was in the courtroom. And call three is between Rick and Kathy. And the prosecution only plans on playing calls two and three.

The defense argues call one then should be played and that there is no admission in that call, but he was telling his parents in that call that he doesn't know how much longer he can stay lucid and he acknowledges he is on camera, proclaims his innocence, and says he is being tortured. So Rosie says the state intentionally chose to omit that first phone call and is essentially hiding facts and evidence.

And he argues that all three phone calls need to be played and called it the rule of completeness. The state says if you go by Mr. Rosie's thoughts, you would have to admit every call that has ever been made and that Alan is welcome then to testify on those calls. The defense doesn't want him to have to impeach himself by getting up and testifying if they waited until they brought up all the confession tapes. Essentially, for some reason, Richard Allen would have to testify if the

defense brought them up. And Rosie says that they are pitting his Fifth Amendment against the evidence rules. So Rosie hands the transcript to the judge. And in that transcript, page four, line 6 to 7, quote, doesn't know how much longer he'll be lucid. Page 4, line 13 through 14, how he is losing his mind. Page 4, 19 through 13. 20 would never do what he is being accused of. Page 5 thinks family is being extorted. Page 5, 14 through 17, he has been mentally tortured for the last five to five to six months. Page 5, line 19, knowing he is on camera. Page 6, 17 through 18, concerned about having to spend money on a lawyer. And they argue that all of these are important for the other calls for context.

and that he is fine to give the transcript of the other calls. So the state then clarifies what they want to play. The calls are not all from April 3rd. They are from many days. So they just make that clarification. Judge Goal says that the defense can play all three if they want, but that the state doesn't have to because the calls are in and of itself the full calls and that she is going to admit the exhibit.

So in other words, like look, she's saying the defense can play all the calls. They've all been submitted into evidence. But as long as the state plays the full calls that they're choosing to play, that's the rule of completeness. So they can pick which phone calls they want as long as they play them all the way through. But they can play whichever calls they wish to play the recorded calls. All right. Rosie continues arguing Rule 106 after that, Baldwin.

pops in with the second argument that Rick references call number one in the other calls that same day, thus context. And if it's not played, it could confuse the jury because they won't have full context. And Judge Goal is basically like, yeah, well, I've made my decision and it's final. She's pretty good with that when she does that. She's like, look, I've ruled we're good. Baldwin then says, are you saying that we can bring them up without testifying? Judge says, that's entirely up to you, giving the defense that option. Baldwin repeats the question. and the judge says it's the same answer. So then they bring up the Google searches.

If you recall, and for those that can't recall, refresh your memory, that there were Google searches that the prosecution wanted to show that Richard Allen made with a particular email and the defense objected because they said, well, we can't prove that he's the only one that ever used that email address. So this is now being revisited. They put a pin in that, that's what I like to say,

and they're revisiting this now. And they are, after it has been taken under advisement, and Goal asks if there are any additional arguments with that. And the document, the state is trying to admit is a statement from a police report that states what the Google searches were. The business document of searches does not show those searches to validate them. And then they decide, once again, to handle that in the afternoon. 9.30, the jury comes in.

So in other words, this all had to do. All of this was handled behind the scenes. they keep the behind-the-scenes stuff from the jury. They didn't see any of that. Now the jury is in. And the prosecution calls their first witness of the day, and it's Brian Harshman. Brian works for the Indiana State Police as a master trooper. He has been working there for the last 30 years.

Question. Do you know when you became involved in this case? His answer. Approximately April 2020. Question. Your role became, in quotes, the phone guy. Tell me about that. Harshman says, yeah, he and Richard.

He says Richard Allen was making a lot of calls that the law enforcement was monitoring. So to streamline things, he kind of appointed himself as the manager to all of these recorded phone calls. And officially Harshman's job was to monitor the phone calls, video calls, and text messages. Question, how many hours of phone calls have you reviewed? Answer from Harshman. There's approximately 700 phone calls. I've listened and relistened to them. Some of the ones that stuck out, I listened to five, six, seven, eight, and nine.

Some of the ones that stuck out, I've listened to up to nine times. The total number of hours is insurmountable, but it's hundreds upon hundreds of hours. Question, in the majority of the calls who was calling, Harshman, his wife or mother. Do you recall a phone call from November 14th, 2022? Who is that to? Yes, he remembers is to Kathy Allen. What was said on the call? I don't have the exact wording.

Something like, if this becomes too much for you, call detectives and I will tell them everything they want to know. So the transcript is pulled out and it actually says, quote, I'll tell them whatever they want me to say. I'll just say it, end quote. The transcript of the call is passed to the jury. The judge tells the jury the transcript is not the evidence. The evidence is in the call itself. So we're going to play the calls. and I want to remind everyone.

This is from, this is actually written by my, by one of the note takers. And they just said, please remind people that this call and others, they were extremely hard to hear. Most people in the courtroom did not get everything. And there is variance with what people have gotten.

But I can tell you this, and I feel confident saying this. I have now talked to several people in the courtroom. We have compared notes in, in my opinion, as well as some people in the courtroom, we feel that we have the best idea of what was set. We feel like we have a really solid grasp of these transcripts. And I just, I guess I want to emphasize that while this was extremely hard to hear, and one day when this audio is released, we'll double check our work. I feel confident in the work that my team has done. I'll just say

that. But I just want to be transparent that, again, we took these as it was being played. Phone calls, by the way, start out again by saying this is a call from Ricky from the Westfield Correction Facility. So again, Ricky is his name according to his family. And this will be for every call that was ever answered. This is a call from Ricky from the Westville Correctional facility. Kathy says, hey, are you there? Richard, yeah, I don't want to upset you anymore. If this becomes too much, call them. I'll tell them whatever they want me to say.

I'll just say it. Richard continues and says, I don't want you to worry about me. All I do is worry about you. Kathy, you need to just hang in there. Richard Allen is hyperventiline a bit and it's difficult to hear what it sounds like, you know, makes it a little bit difficult to hear this. And Richard says, I'm sorry. I know what you told me.

You need to take care of yourself, okay? You need to get the help you need. I can't take care of you. Didn't you go back to work? Kathy, no, they don't want me in. They are afraid for me. Richard, I understand. I'm sorry, baby.

I'm sorry, baby. I just love you so much. Kathy, I love you too. Richard, I just want to see you. If anything happens, I'll see you in the next life. Kathy, okay. You take care of the family, okay? They say I love you multiple times.

And it's important to note here that Kathy was very emotional in this call as well as in the courtroom. Back now to Harshman questions. That's the end of the call. There we are. And thank you to those, by the way. I'm going to pause. I'm on the next page. So let's take a break.

For those just entering the chat new, once again, we are covering yesterday in court because it's important to go everything over everything. This is October 31st, 24. court at the Richard Allen trial. I'm not going to continue saying that. So thank you to the moderators and everyone in the chat that keeps things clear for new people coming in. In fact, for the newbies coming in, pause here. We're just going to make this clear once and for all. I just want it very clear. Boom. So that help? All right. Back to Harshman. On April 2nd, is there another phone? call by Richard Allen. Yes, that is to his mother, Janice. Harsman explains. Well, what

statements does he make? Harsman says, well, he talks to his mother and he tells his mother that he has found Jesus Christ and he wants his mother to know that he found God. And now they play the call. Richard. Hey, Janice. Hey. Richard, good morning. Janice. Kind of laughs. It's good to hear from you. Richard, I've been trying to get a hold of Kathy all morning, but the phone system doesn't seem to be working half the time. I got a hold of her only once. Janice, well, they had a really bad storm. Oh, in Delphi, Richard asks. Janice, all of Indiana.

They had tornadoes and everything. Richard, I heard something about that. We had a little bit of hail. Janice says something at this point about Wi-Fi going out. Couldn't get the whole statement. Richard, hey, if you talk to Kathy, tell her, I am okay, and I will get to her as soon as I can. Janice, okay. Richard, hey, are you going to church? Yes, Janice says. Richard asks what church? Janice, the old Roxy Theater in Peru.

Richard. Oh, cool. What made you decide to go there? Janice refers to someone named Colleen. So again, this isn't verbatim. She refers to someone named Colleen and says that she's been going there since after she wrecked the van, didn't get that complete thing. And then Richard asked, well, how long ago was that? And Janice says something about. last February. Richard, oh my God, you've been going for that long? Janice, not sure what she said, but it seems to be something about how meaningful church is to her.

And Richard says that that is good to hear and then he starts crying in this phone call. Janice, yeah, I'm so glad I did. I wouldn't have made it through all of this. Richard, did Kathy tell you the other day that I accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as my savior? Janice. Oh, I didn't. Where was it? Janice. Oh, I didn't know. That's so wonderful. Richard, it's really important to me that you've been going to church that long.

Janice, it makes me happy. Kathy is going and the family is going. Richard, okay, I'm going to, we couldn't get the rest of that. Then Richard says, I've got a family that loves me no matter what. I've got God. Kathy's got God. I know he is not going to let this last forever. We will all be back together again. It may be six months. It may be in the next life. Janice says something about miracles. And then Richard says, I think he already has. Richard also explains, I didn't accept God until 321, 23. So more than a week ago, I started reading my Bible. I would not have read it if Kathy hadn't sent it. Janice, she has been trying to get that to you for a long time. Richard says he's questioned if the Bible was real because it didn't say Holy Bible. It says the message. Not so something like that. And then Jenna says it is worded so you can read it easier.

Richard Richards states, I asked her where she got the Bible. She said Dr. Frank had given it to her. I've been trying to call her because the next time she sees Dr. Frank, I want her to thank him for saving my life. If I didn't have a wife, I wouldn't have a life. She has been trying to. All right. Excuse me. Janice. She's been trying to talk to attorneys to get you one. Richard, okay, I'm going to try to get a hold of Kathy.

Janice, okay, I love you. Richard, I love you too, mom. Bye. April 3rd, 23. Question. Are you aware of the call made on April 3rd? That's a question to Harshman. Excuse me.

Yes. Then a question is asked. To Harshman. Are you aware? that he makes incriminating statements? Answer, yes. Question, is this call the day after that last call that we played? Answer from Harsman, yes. And now the call begins. We're going to get to it. Let me just check stream ride. Thank you again to our moderators and thank you to everyone who is here.

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Kathy, for what? Richard, I did it. I did it. I killed Abby and Libby. Kathy, no, you didn't. Why would you say that? Richard, because I think I did it. Kathy, no, you didn't.

They are feeding. I couldn't get the rest. Richard, did dad call? Kathy, no, I talked to mom. She was worried about you. Richard, is there a way to talk to dad? Kathy. No, honey, there is something wrong.

They are screwing with you. She implies that they've done something to Richard's food or meds. Richard, I think I did it. Kathy, no, you didn't. Richard, I think I did. Kathy, you don't know exactly. They are screwing with you, trying to get you to say something. Richard, I just wish they'd kill me or let me apologize to the families.

Kathy, don't talk anymore. Don't talk anymore. Okay? Richard, I'm sorry. Kathy, don't talk anymore. Back to Harshman. So phone call concluded. Let's move on to one of the two calls from May 5th, 23.

Do you recall the one at 5 a.m. to Kathy? Harshman says yes. The call begins. So this is May 10th, 23. Kathy says, hello. Richard says hello back. Kathy, hello, are you there? Richard, I am.

Kathy. Hi, honey. It's good to hear your voice. Richard, it's good to hear your voice. Kathy, are you doing okay? Richard, I might be now. Kathy, well, I'm supposed to be meeting with Brad. Are they going to move you?

Richard, I don't know. Are you here? Kathy, yeah, I'm right here. Are you okay, Richard asks her? Yeah, I am, Kathy says. Richard, I think maybe I've lost my mind. Kathy, I think we've all lost our minds. Richard, so I can trust.

Brad and Andy? Kathy, yes you can, sweetheart. They are our attorneys. Let's not talk about anything we don't need to. Richard, well, I need to talk to you about something anyways. Kathy, are you sure that you want to say it on the phone? Richard, I think I have to. Kathy says, okay. Richard, I need you to know I did this. Kathy, what? No, there's no way, dear. There's no way. Richard, I hope you still love. me. Kathy, I will always still love you, but there is no way. You don't need to say something you didn't do. Richard, this is the first time I've been able to talk to you. I've been trying to talk to you forever. Kathy. Oh, have they not let you? Richard, I don't know what's going on here. I'm going to lose my mind. I've been asking for personal visitation. It feels like it's taking

forever. And then you hear, you have one minute left on the phone call. Kathy, it's okay. Are you there? Richard, yeah. I had a dream and I need to let you go. And I didn't know how. I'm just trying to be at peace with things. Kathy, you're dreaming things. And I didn't catch the rest of what she states. Richard, but I have to let you know that I did it. Kathy, no you didn't. There's no way. There's no way. And then they play the second call from May 10th in court. Richard, hello, Kathy. Hey. Richard, hey, it's me. Kathy, yeah. Richard, I need to know if you still love me. Kathy, don't hear anything. Richard. And everyone else as well, honey? Kathy, yes. Richard, because I may have to spend the rest of my life here. Kathy sobs. Kathy says, stop talking. That's not true, okay? Richard, you don't understand. Richard, I just got to know everyone's still going to love me because I may only be able to see you one last time. It's true. Kathy, no, it's not. Richard, I'm wrong. Kathy, no. Richard, yes, I am. Richard, I just hope people still love me. I may only,

didn't get the rest of that. Kathy, no, no, that's not going to happen. Richard, will you still be there for me? Kathy, yes, she sobs. Richard, do what? Kathy, this isn't right. They've messed you up so bad. Richard, it's okay. I did it. I've got someone listening right now. Kathy sobs. Richard, I killed Abby and Libby too. Kathy, no, you didn't stop saying that. Richard, I knew I needed to let you go. I was trying to let you go. Kathy, stop. We're going to be back together. One minute remaining, Richard, I hope you're always going to love me no matter what. Kathy sobs. Richard, will you always love me, baby no matter what. Kathy, I am with you. Please stop talking. Please stop talking. And then next, they went to play the call from 51723. Yes, she was hearing the calls. All right. Oh, so they went to

play the call from 51723. However, it was accidentally the wrong call, so they stopped it and moved to the next one. On June 5th, 23, question to Harshman, are you familiar with a call from 6-5? 23. He is? Is this a phone call between Richard Allen and Kathy Allen? Answer, yes. That would be yes. The call begins. Kathy, hello. Richard, hey, are you still there? Kathy, yes, I'm here. Richard groans. I need to get you some coffee, Kathy says. Can you get coffee or snacks or whatever you need, babe? Richard says something I can't understand. Or we can't understand. Kathy. It doesn't. It doesn't It doesn't matter. Kathy, I don't understand my thought process. I really don't. It's stupid. I'm trying to be better about that. There's silence. Kathy, what did you have for breakfast and lunch today? Richard Allen mentioned something about eggs. I couldn't catch the rest. Kathy says, yeah. Richard, it feels kind of weird talking to you. Kathy, why would it feel weird? Richard, I don't know. It just feels weird. It feels like I've lost my mind and I'm living in hell. Kathy feels like it. can't catch the rest.

Richard, you know what I have done, right? Oh, Potts, I didn't read that right. Richard states, you know I have done it, right? Kathy, dear, I don't want to talk about that. Richard, I'm just in a really something spot right now. Kathy says, what? Richard, I'm just, oh, I am just in a really frustrating spot right now. and says he knows it's nothing compared to Kathy, though.

Kathy says no. Richard says, I don't know why anyone will not talk to me. Be honest with me. Kathy says, I can't tell what she says, and it ends with didn't do it. Richard says, everyone is afraid to hurt my feelings or something. Kathy states, everyone's got to be very careful. If I could get a chaplain to pray, would that be okay? I've been trying to get someone.

Richard states, I talked to the chaplain once. It didn't seem to help me. Kathy says, I'm going to fight hard to get you something I couldn't read, something we couldn't understand. Kathy, you're kind of in a difficult spot right now, but dot, dot, dot couldn't gather the rest. Do you understand, Kathy asks? Richard states, sorry, I'm sorry, I questioned, and then you can't read the rest.

Can't hear the rest. Then they move straight to the next. call court does. Same questions. After some questions to Harshman, similar questions, do you, in other words, between every call, they're like, do you know this call? Do you know what it is? And they submit into evidence. This call is from June 11th, 23. Kathy, hello. Richard, hello. Kathy, hey, Richard, hey. Then Kathy says something, we couldn't catch. Richard says, I guess. Kathy? Kathy says what? Richard says, I did it. Then there's a very long pause. Richard, do you still love me? Kathy, yes, but you didn't do it. Richard, why do you say that?

Kathy, why do you say it? Richard, I don't want to upset you. Kathy, I'm already upset. Then there's another pause. Richard, I'm sorry. I don't know what I'm doing. I feel like I've lost my mind. Kathy, honey, you cannot call me and talk to me like this, okay? Another pause. Kathy, a faint, okay? Richard, I'm sorry, baby. Kathy, I can't talk to you right now. Richard, well, I didn't want to do this. Kathy cries. Honey, I'm sorry. You're not going to do anything to yourself, are you? Richard says that. Honey, I'm sorry. You're not going to do anything to yourself, are you? Richard says that. Honey, I'm sorry. You're not going to do anything to yourself, are you? Kathy says no. Richard, I'm probably going to have to kill myself now. Kathy. Stop. Can't be calling me like this. Richard, you don't have anything to do with me. Why are you so mad at me?

Kathy, you know I'm not mad. I'm heartbroken. Richard, I can't tell you what's been going on in my mind. I feel like I'm already in hell and I've been waiting on a Bible from you, but Kathy cries more. Richard, I don't understand what's going on. Kathy says, neither do I. Richard says, I understand. I'll stop calling. I'm sorry. Okay. Kathy, you can't call me if you're going to talk like this. Richard, if I'm going to talk like what? Kathy says, you can't, I can't have you. And then the line cuts. One second. Thanks, guys, sticking with me. This was a really, really important day. Thanks for being with me here. Harsman. Question, while listening. Have you gotten a sense of his way of speech, demeanor, and behavior. Harsman states, I have gotten

familiar with it. And so during the calls today, what would you say his demeanor is during these calls? The defense, Rosie, is not objecting, but clarifying that Harshman is not certified to say that. And after they get over that, Harshman answers and says that I would say his demeanor during these calls is calm, subdued and solemn. Question. What about his rate of speech? Is it in line with other calls? Yes. Well, during those phone calls, did you notice any indication that he was under stress? I did not. In August 2024, were you still involved in the case and listening to calls? Answer, correct. They show a portion of Exhibit 303.

question, do you recognize this exhibit as a report from Dr. Walla? Harsman says, yes, I do, sir. Yes, sir, I do. The question to Harsman, have you had a chance to review the report and familiarize yourself with it? Harsman has. What statement did he make in that report and what was he doing on that day? They give some details that we learned yesterday, or excuse me, we learned some details that we learned October 30th, Wednesday. day. And

Harshman's actually having some trouble reading. He starts using a light on his film before finishing the explanation. One specific detail stuck out. To you, can you tell me what that is? Harshman says, yes, where he saw

a van that scared him because it caused him to cross the creek before he killed the girls, according to his confession. So those are the details. Just to remind all of you that we learned Wednesday, October 30th, and that he confessed

to Dr. Walla that he was going to assault the girls. And then he saw a van. It scared him. And now we're learning that that's when he went across the creek with the girls. And he killed him, them according to his confession. That's what he states in a confession to Dr. Walla. So that's what we're referring to. So this is a detail that stuck out to him, that he saw a van that scared him and caused him to cross the creek.

Well, prior to this, they asked Harsman, was there any indication that anyone knew about a van? Answer, no. So what did you do after learning about this van? Harshman says, well, we got a hold of investigators. I knew the only person who would have seen the van is the person that killed them. them. Abby William, Libby German, and the person that killed them. So then they talk about the property belonging to the Weber's, Brad Weber and the Webbers. And so the question, did you run a DMV check to find out what vehicles Brad Weber owned? Because they realized that if somebody

saw a van that was in that area, perhaps the Weber's property might be, you know, something. So So they found out what vehicles Brad Weber owned. Yes, you did. Did you find out that he had a van? I did. What kind of van? A 2000 economy. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day.

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support. Other companies might sell just credit monitoring, or just a VPN. ORA gives you all of it. Together, at the same price competitors charge for just one service. Start your free trial today atora.com slash remove. Protect yourself now atora.com slash remove. Align. So Harshman, what did you do after that?

Well, he says that he went through old reports and got reports that included Brad Weber. And did those reports include his work history? Yes, they did. And what did you find? Well, he tells about the clock and clock out times from Wednesday in court, October 30th and Brad, that's when Brad Weber testified and he explained that he clocked in, I think before 7 a.m. at his work and that he clocked out at 202 p.m. at work. And did you interview Brad Weber after? Harsman says he did. And who was in that interview and he lists a couple of names?

And so question, did you get an opportunity to interview to confirm the information about work history and confirm the van? Harsman says he did. And there's a question, did any reports you review include anything about a van? No, it did not. no report or discovery at this point contained anything about a van. Were there any reports that were public? No, there were not any reports that were public. Were any reports posted on social media? Answer from Harshman, I don't believe so.

Well, what did you do after interviewing Brad Weber? Answer, he made a report. After you interviewed Brad Weber, what did you look, did you look at other information in the investigation? Yes. Now they start talking about the bridge guy video asking if he reviewed it. Harshman says that he contacted Cecil because Cecil was the first one who extracted Libby German's phone. And so how was the enhanced format of the Bridge Guy video different than the original?

And their answer is it stabilized the photo of Bridge Guy. So why were you contacting Cecil about that? And he said, well, Cecil didn't. analysis and he developed a timeline. So then the video is shown for court. The down the hill video once again is shown in court. This would be the third time it's shown. Again, the notes said by those taking notes for me, again, read, right, the voices are so young. It's, and that's what I hear too when I hear this full 43 second video. Is this a video? Harshman has asked. Yes, it's a video. Were you able to confirm the video? Were you able to confirm the video?

time frame. I have it in my notes, but I believe it was 2.13. So that is true. 2.13 on February 13th. What was the other info you were able to collect from that data? And the answer is Cecil provided him with data which showed movement of phone until its final resting place. What do you recall the time is when the phone stopped working? Well, it was at 232. Did you gather info about how long it took for him to get home from work? The defense objects. Harshman's answers, yes, I use Google Maps of several different days and the drive takes 20 to 25 minutes for Brad Weber. And that van was on the road sometime between 2.27 p.m. and 2.30 p.m. Question, and you listen to many hours of phone calls? Many. Did you review the voice in that video? Yes.

Who do you believe that voice belonged to? Harshman's answer? Richard Allen. Check in on things. I want to reiterate once again. I am reading exactly what happened in court, and I am not editorializing. So this is the day in court yesterday. We are going to jump to the defense cross-examining Harshamen now. Thank you, everyone, for being here. Going back to step by step by step.

yesterday in court. Cross exam, rosy states to Harchman, 14,000 tips came in and many identified voices as someone other than Richard Allen. And he says, and so you went and you talked to Brad Weber. Yes, he did. And Brad owns a Weber owns a white van. Yes, he does. Did you ever look at discovery and see how many references to a white van in discovery. Harshman says he didn't read discovery. Well, do you believe Brad Weber? Yes, I do. Harshman says.

Well, would you be surprised if I told you that there were hundreds of white bands mentioned in that discovery? Answer, I don't know if I would be surprised or not. And there's a sidebar, a big sidebar. And during this time, during the sidebar, Baldwin is rubbing Richard Allen's back. I posted a sketch drawn by Christina of what that looked like on Instagram, Hidden True Crime's Instagram account. You can head to that or our Facebook.com slash Hidden True Crime.

Both are at Hidden True Crime. If you are interested, it's quite the moment when Baldwin puts his arm around him or rubs his back. Sidebar, over. Questions. Rosie goes back to questioning on the cross-exam with Harschman. If one of those reports contradicted what Brad Weber told you, would you feel differently? Answer, no. Question, if Brad Weber is not a credible human being, but your theory of timeline change, Harshman, no. Question, you said it was a 19 to 20-minute drive from where Brad Weber works at Subaru to his house.

answer actually I believe that I said 20 to 25 minute. Rosie, well, that's assuming no traffic. That doesn't factor. He may have been in his car on his phone. He may have talked to a coworker. You may have gone to a gas station. Another question, are you aware that Brad Weber was a suspect at one point? There's an objection by the prosecution out of scope. Did you consider that Mr. Weber might be involved if his van was there at that time? Answer, no.

Did you record your interview with Brad Weber? I did. Have you ever looked at reports that included Weber? He only read a report yesterday, and I believe he's talking about the first report that Brad Weber gave to law enforcement here. Rosie then asked another question. If Mr. Allen had had a Haldol injection on April 14th,

might that impact his speech? Objection, speculation. Question. Would you agree that his psychologist may be better able to testify about his medication? Harshman says he agrees. Have you heard that he had a Haldol on 5, 18th? No, I do. It did not. And by the way, we'll just pause what a Haldol injection is, is it helps with those that may be experiencing psychosis. It's an antipsychotic. question. Did you know that he had held all on June 15th? Harshman says no. Question, did you ever check with the Department of Correction staff to see what he was prescribed? Answer.

And he basically says, Harsman says that it's basically the outside of his job. So he doesn't know that. And Rosie says, well, all of these things could have impacted Richard Allen's speech. Rosie says, ultimately, your job is to keep track of tablet messages and cell phone, phone calls, video and movement videos, right? Harsman says yes. Did you interview guards? Yes. Did you interview other inmates? I did not. Did you interview S companions? I did not. Did you review the door sheets? He did. You were using a third-party service in receiving automation on your phone that would notify you of any communication in Richard Allen's cell, correct? Yes. So you would basically be able to

sit at a ball game and be able to tell if Richard Allen's cell. Allen had communication. Answer. He gave a very long answer at this moment about what parts of that service were working and then what parts of the communication you would have known about right away. Didn't get that full explanation. Will it be helpful to see some of the cell video to put in context to these calls? They asked, like, let's see the video and said just the calls.

Harshman says he doesn't think so. Coming in here to check the stream. How are we doing? Hey, everyone, just checking in. I'm going back. Thank you again to our moderators here. Thank you to everyone for being respectful and sharing your thoughts in chat respectfully. In the history of your entire career, is it accurate to say you've never been assigned to be a surveillance man?

Harshman says, I'd agree. Were you aware of false confessions, Richard Allen gave? Were you aware of him saying that he shot those girls? Harsman says, that info came from an S companion, actually. It was not a recorded confession and may not be the most reliable. question. Are you familiar with Bridge Guy? Harchman, yes. Question. In the video, Bridge Guy is walking. Yes, it's true. Question. The girls would be on the south side and Bridge Guy coming from the north side, right? Harsman answers, I'll take your word for it. Rosie asked, is it accurate to say they made it to the other end of the bridge before Bridge Guy? Harsman says yes. That's true. Rosie's starting to say, is it accurate to say they made it to the other end of the bridge, before Bridge Guy? Harsman says, yes. That's true.

Rosie starts saying in that video bridge guy wasn't lying in wait, which, as you remember, this is what Richard Allen said in his confession to Dr. Wallet a little bit that. And Harshman says, well, and actually Richard Allen states that he followed the girls onto the bridge. And Harshman says, he could have been until the girls passed him, could have, could have, he could have been lying away until the girls passed him, and then they passed him on the bridge. Question, was there any cartridge or bullet found on the bridge? Harshman says no. Question, the van was a general reference to a van, correct?

Yes, there was nothing about a color maker model. No? No. Question, it could be a coincidence. Answer, I am not sure what you're trying to ask. Question, is that the only van in Carroll County? Harshman says it's the only one in that area. That's interesting.

Question. You had a chance to observe Richard Allen over the past two years, right? And actually, you're still doing it. Answer, he is a person who, and Harsman says, he is a person who needs to be watched closely for safety. Rosie asks, have you been listening to communication over the last three weeks in trial? Answer, yes. Well, have you had there been times he proclaimed innocent? in the calls you monitor.

Harshman says, yeah, he has some. Well, have you ever logged those, Rosie's asked. Harshman answers, I take notes. Well, have you ever seen him being threatening? Rosie asks. Harshman says, yes. You'd say that he would spit on staff. Harshman says that would be a threat.

Well, how many times did you go to the Westfield Corrections facility? correctional facility. Harsman says he went two to three times. Have you ever gone back to see his cell or walked the A-Pod? Harsman says no. Did you take the time to visit his cell in the county jail? Harsman says yes. That's the brand new one? Yes. Oh, that's the brand new one, Rosie asks. Harsman says, I don't know. Question, did you see his setup? Harsman says he did. Do he have a table in there? I believe he had a small one. Did he have a TV? Yes, a TV is a common area outside the cell.

There are much better circumstances here than the Westfield Correctional Facility, right? And Harsman answers, maybe cleaner and nicer, but they're the same circumstances. Question, did you see the videos of him eating feces? That's not normal behavior. Harshman says it's not normal behavior for me, and the courtroom actually laughs at that moment. I think Richard Allen struggles to be alone and is in need of constant attention, not that he's psychotic. I've heard him say in phone calls, he does things for attention. Interesting.

Rosie asks, does you ever look at the video of Richard Allen banging his head to see what he was doing? Answer, yes. Did you ever watch videos of him rolling in feces? Harsh one answer is, I watched videos of him rolling around in food and maybe feces. Question, at any point, did you think you should contact staff medical personnel? Arshman is stating that that is not his responsibility and that the prison has staff to handle that. Rosie asks, you told me he was right where he needed to be based on threats to harm himself. All right.

And now the questions shift at this moment. We're still on cross-exam, but the question shifts to the November 14th, 2020 call. Rosie asks, in court on July 31st, did you believe that phone call had some significance of his mental state? Harshman says, I'm not sure as much about his mental state and more about what he said. Well, and Harshman said

that Alan said, quote, if this becomes too much, have them contact detectives and I'll tell them everything they want to know. So a question, did you testify that phone call was significant? and harsh many answers. It was significant in that he said that he had talked to detectives. Rosie said, though, but Richard Allen said that he said,

whatever it is they want me to say, I'll just say it. Those words suggest he was willing to do whatever he needed to do to get the heat off of him. And now the questions shift to April 3, 2023 call from 5.14 a.m. Rosie asks. Harshman. During that phone call, Richard Allen actually references a call he made earlier that day to his father. Harshman says, yes. It says, did dad tell you that I call?

Well, do you agree that there were three phone calls made early that morning? Harshman, I can only speak to that without. Oh, Harshman, I can't speak to that without my notes. So then Rosie shows him the three calls. And the questions shift to the April 3rd, 2023 call from one. 23 p.m. Question, did you have a chance to review that call? No. Question ever. Harsman, maybe in real time, but I have not looked in preparation for this testimony. And this part is actually interesting because according to those in court, there are multiple questions in a row that the

prosecution objects to and, and Goal actually calls a sidebar. No, Rosie's back. Question, back in August, I took your deposition. Do you remember that? Yes, sir. Harshman says. Rosie, we talked about confessions. Broadly. Yeah. Oh, we talked about confessions, Rosie says. Harshman says, yes, broadly. Question, Richard Allen spent two years in solitary confinement. And then there was an objection. Oh, okay. Oh, yeah, not sure why there wasn't an objection, because it was 13 months that he spent on S-Watch. So, yeah, that's interesting. But the question that Rosie states is Richard Allen spent two years in solitary confinement.

And then he says, you reviewed 700 phone calls, right? Yes. Then we have lunch. And while we have lunch, let me just check on chat and everyone here. How's everyone doing? Thank you to our amazing moderators. please slow chat. Thank you.

I knew I needed a check chat. I'm going to do it now. I'll check my phone moderators too, if any of you have written me, forgive me. So it's lunchtime in court. We're just taking a little intermission here, checking on things. Okay. All right. Actually, I'm going to slow the chat a little bit more just so that we're safe.

So you have a bit more to go to. Okay. It's good to see everyone here. I missed you guys last night, honestly. I'm used to joining with you guys every night, so we're catching up. I know I am going to, we might have another live again later tonight because we will then follow up. We'll follow up with today in court. Okay.

All right. Chelsea. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. And I see some other incredible donations right now and support, not donations, excuse me, just support and kindness. Thank you so much. I'll thank you, everyone. Oh, and I forgot. I actually got rid of. Let's see. All right. Let's get going. So after lunch, McLeeland, prosecution, apologizes for originally having the wrong video in the place for the May 17th, 2023 audio that we were supposed to hear. The judge allows the switch and the jury handed

transcript. The jury is handed a transcript and is given a reminder that the transcript is not evidence. And the call is with Richard Allen's mother, Janice between Richard Allen and Janice. Richard says hi. Or excuse me, Janice says hi. Richard Allen. Hello. Janice. Hi. Are you there? Yeah, are you there? Janice. Oh, how are you doing? Richard, I'm doing all right, I guess. Janice, it's good to hear your voice. Richard. Did Kathy tell you I did it? Janice, we are not going to discuss this, okay? Pause, Janice. Are you there? Richard. Yeah, I'm still here. Janice, we love you. You know that, don't you? Richard, regardless, Janice, yes. Richard, do you know if Kathy is okay? Janice, Kathy's doing okay. We've been holding each other up.

Richard, I'm just worried you aren't going to love me because I said I did it. Janice, Ricky, you're not in a good place, but we love you. Just saying you did it doesn't mean that you did it. Richard, well, it does when I did it. Janice, Ricky, don't talk like this. I feel. I feel think they're just messing with you. Richard, no mom. Janice, I know you don't have it in you to do something like this. You're not that kind of person. Richard, I wouldn't sit here and say that I did it if I didn't do it. Janice. Well, if they're messing with your meds and all that, then you would, but we are not going to discuss. Richard, but you won't stop loving me if I did it. Janice, I will always love you no matter what. You can count on that. Nothing will stop that. Are they letting you

call again? Richard, they are now. Janice, have you been getting my letters? Richard, I haven't been getting letters. Janice, I write you every day. Richard, great, something else to share with my therapist. Janice, oh, they're letting you talk to her again? Richard, they always have been. Janice, but just once a month, Richard, every day. So in other words, he's saying that he does talk to Dr. Wallet every day. That's interesting because that is what Dr. Wallet testified to as well, that she would meet with him every day. So it's interesting to hear him say the same. Redirect.

So that means to Rosie's unquestioned the defense, and it's redirect from the prosecution. They're coming back. Harshman still on the stand. Question. Have there been issues where Richard Allen has been violent? Harshman says yes. Where he has had to be restrained? Harshman says yes.

Where he's been irate? Harshman says yes. Did one happen recently? Yes. Did you have a chance to review the video over lunch? Answer, yes. and was he yelling and screaming and banging on a door yelling, quote, I'm going to fucking kill you, end quote, to the guards.

And now there is an objection. Ian Baldwin again puts his arm around Richard Allen. There is a break at this moment to figure out a video issue. McCleeland wants to play a 30-minute video, and they all suggest that they regroup at 215. and so back at 235, there is an immediate sidebar, and then the sidebar lasts until 242. At 245 p.m., there's a 30-minute recess, and the judge needs to review the video in chambers. At 3.30, we are back on record, and once we get back on record, there is his what, an immediate sidebar.

Then there's Exhibit 314, which is a video, and it is not being admitted into evidence after the defendant objected. So that video, after all of that, that was referenced about Richard Allen, allegedly threatening guards recently, will now not be admitted into evidence because the defense objected to it. And that's that. So now we go back to cross-exam. Back to Rosie asking harshmen, some things. Question, talking about your experience with other arrests, are other people often held in jail before trial? And I believe that they meant prison there. So talking about your experiences with other arrests

are other people often held in prison before trial? Harshman answers, yes. Our phone calls, oh, okay, sorry. I need to trust this. Okay, scratch. Rosie, this is back to cross, Rosie is saying talking about your experience with other arrests, aren't people often held in jail, aka not prison, before trial?

Yes, Harsman says. Our phone calls to attorneys always monitor. Harsman answers, no. Are there phone calls to everyone else? What about phone calls? Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the

internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers, spammers, even stalkers. It's why you get endless robocalls and why ads seem to follow you everywhere. That's where ORA comes in. ORA actively removes your data from broker sites and keeps it off. They also instantly alert you if your information shows up in a breach or on the dark web. But ORA goes beyond data protection.

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To everyone else besides attorneys, yes. So in other words, phone calls to attorneys are not monitored because of client attorney privilege, phone calls to everyone else besides attorneys, monitor. jury questions. Now, this is interesting. I feel like this is an insightful jury. Let's find out what they're going to say after all that. So Harsman's done. Jury questions. So these are jury questions for Harshman. You stated in your experience the people are often held in jail before trial. Is that county jail or prison? He clarifies, just like I did. He mostly jail. Next question. Did you listen to Richard Allen's phone calls before May 2nd, 2023. Yes. Do you know how many vans drive down Brad Weber's drive? Answer, I don't know, but it's a private drive, so not that many. Next question.

Do you know how many vans drive down the road that drives next to Brad Weber's drive? No. Judge Gull says, quote, earlier the state moved to admit four photos of Richard Allen from before the murders. Because there is no proof of the date and time and the defendant objected, I am not admitting these. Objection is sustained. So she sided with the defense. And then Exhibit 289, which are the Google searches that we have put a pin in. Richard Allen objected to them, but the judge has overruled. Copies now of these Google searches are being passed out to the jury. While the jury is reviewing these Google searches, Richard Allen is reading papers intently and hands it back to Baldwin.

He seems to look at the jury while talking to Baldwin. The jury is given time to read the Google searches. And after that, the state rests immediately. And that's that. That was the day. And that is how the state chose to rest. To the moderators, before I jump to the defense. First Witness.

How is the chat speed? If Troublemaker Baker could text me or just put on chat either or and let me know how we're doing before I jump to the defense's witness. And thank you to all the moderators who are here. I see them. Mason, thank you. Petty Mason's always so kind to greet everyone and I just thank you everyone. Okay, I'm going to keep going. And Casey, I'll get to see you too.

What were the Google searches you guys are asking? What don't we all like to know? They were handed to the jury. The jury read them. And the state concluded. Okay, I'm going to slow down chat a bit. I'm getting word. One second.

Let's jump back to notes. Defense first witness, Cheyenne Mill. Rosie is questioning Cheyenne. She is younger. She has brown hair. in a pretty black dress, they ask a Cheyenne right away. How old are you? 30. Back in 2017, what was your last name? Ingalls. She explains that that was from her first marriage. And do you remember February 13th, 2017 in what you were doing that day? Yes, I went hiking.

Where were you living in Monticello with my parents? Tell me about your morning that day. Well, Cheyenne says, my best friend, Shelby Duncan, and I went hiking at Franz Park, which is about a fifth, which is about 15 minutes east of Delphi. We did a loop around the link, but we wanted to walk more and she had never been to the Monon Trail, so we decided to go there. What time did you leave Franz Park? I'm not sure, but I showed up at the Monon High Bridge at about 250 p.m. That's interesting. So 250 p.m. That would be, well, the bridge guy down the hill video was taken. At 2.13. Okay. Tell the jury where you parked. Answer, I parked in the grass, but I'm not sure which way I parked. The trail has a marker and there were two spots, but they were full, so I parked on the grass. Was there a farmhouse across the street? Answer, yes, I believe it's called the Mears Connector. In other words, this would be the farm, the mirrors farm entrance. Tell the jury how you know what time you got there. She says, well, I received a call at three times.

12 for my boyfriend at that time and I was already on the trail. Issue at this point because now she is reading directly off of the timeline she brought. And they say, question, how did you find out it was 312? And she goes, well, when I reported I was there, I needed to find out a time that I was there. And so I looked at my call log. Question, well, where were you when you received that call? Well, I had just gotten out of my car and I was barely on the trail. I wasn't on the bridge yet.

Question, well, what way did you go? Answer, I got out of my car. I walked to the connector trail and I went left towards the bridge. Question, did you come across anyone? One mini on the trail and a man and a woman on the bridge. Question, what do you remember about the man? Answer, he was overweight. We said hi and he didn't say hi back.

Well, what about the man and woman? Well, at the first platform, my high school friend Shelby Hicks and her boyfriend, Daniel, were there. I said hi, and then I kept walking. Where did you go? Answer all the way across the bridge. What do you remember about that day? Well, it was very nice. It was unusually warm, which is why we wanted to go for a second walk.

Question, were you in a hurry? I had nothing else going on. I had just picked up my son at 6 p.m. Question, well, where did you go after you got off the bridge? Answer, we hopped off the side and went to the bathroom and then we got back on after the bridge. Well, did you and Shelby Duncan take photos on the bridge? Yes. Did you have to recover them at some point? Yes. What is the first photo on, what is the photo on the first page? It's a photo that I took with my Snapchat. It shows the timestamp of 3.49 p.m. I took it when I made it across the bridge.

What about the second photo? It's the same picture but enlarged. What about the third? The photo is also on the bridge on the way back. It's the same photo. It just has water in it. And what about the fourth? That is a photo from Shelby Duncan's Snapchat. And the fifth photo?

Her photo. It's a screenshot of the same water photo. And the last image. It is Shelby Duncan's feet hanging off at 3.55 p.m. It is the same platform that the other Shelby was on. And these are the photos you collected on your own. The last two were from the deposition. They were Shelby's.

Mine I collected for my own personal timeline. The photos are admitted and they're passed to the jury. Question. Looking at the first page, is this photo from your Snapchat account. The photo is from Snapchat. The comment is from Facebook. Did you later take a screenshot of the Snapchat and post to Facebook? Yes.

On this Snapchat photo, do you agree with a 349 time reference? Yes. four, fifth, and sixth are all similar photos. Now, this is kind of, it gets a little bit random here. It's kind of confusing, but Cheyenne says, it was just when we were finally contacted by police two weeks later. We tried to talk to the police the day after we went to the trail, but they were rude and they didn't want to hear from us.

Question, were these photos for timelines? Answer, yes. question as you went on the bridge you sat on a platform right answer yes we said we sat on the first platform for 10 to 15 minutes we smoked two cigarettes together and enjoyed the weather well question was it windy or not windy she doesn't remember did you see anyone else no did you ever hear anything unusual no did you ever see anyone even in the woods no not even when we jumped off the bridge to go to the bathroom. Were there any noises on the side of the bridge?

No. Were there any vehicles? No, there was nothing there. Where did you go after? Answer, we began walking the trail back to the car. We went the same way we came in. Did you see anyone at the connector? A man on a moped and then a woman.

Did you notice anything? They were frantic and talking to themselves. And she says that they, she did not talk to them. Were there any other cars? Were there other cars? One car and the man on the moped. Did you see anyone walking the country road? No. What did you do next? I took Shelby home and then I went home. Do you know which way you would have went? I would have turned back around and went towards Delphi. From the time you got to the platform until the time you left, how long was that? Shelby's feet were dangling at 355. We sat 10.000.

10 to 15 minutes and it would have been after 4 p.m. when we left? When was it that you realize there may have been a potential problem at the trail? She says, well, I had posted a photo of feet dangling and someone who was mutual friends with Shelby D. commented. Well, and did you reach out to law enforcement yourself? Yes, the next morning when I saw the news, I called and I said, I was there with Shelby Duncan and my Chrysler 300 and that I saw Shelby Hicks and Daniel. But when I called, the woman was very rude and said this was a very serious matter, so I just gave them my phone number. Were you contacted again? Yes, around two weeks later.

How were you contacted? An officer came by Shelby Duckens' work at the smoke shop. Did you meet law enforcement to give a statement? And where at? Yes, the Indiana Beach parking lot. Was it just the two of you? My mom was in the car, but she didn't hear anything. Was the officer male or female?

Male. Do you remember his name? No. How did the conversation go? He asked what our involvement was. My boyfriend, who was incarcerated at the time, called, and the officer seemed very interested in that. Way more than the current issue.

But I showed him my call log, log, Snapchat, and photos. So Shelby was with you? No, she gave her interview right before me. Did an officer inspect your phone or take the images you took on the trail? No. Did he tell you if the audio was recorded? No, it was not. When was the next time you heard from law enforcement?

Six months later, the FBI called me. They established who they were. They were asking for my mom. I explained that I was on my mom's plan, but this was my phone and that I had already talked to law enforcement. They said, thank you. And the call was less than five minutes. Well, what prompted you to contact them again?

Answer, I posted that photo of me on the trail that day. I experienced doxying with my kids where I lived and at my work. That's so sad. The way. Question, did you take it upon yourself to let them know? Yes, I said I moved, I got married, and I was there if they needed me,

but I went into hiding. She shows the envelope she sent to the courthouse. Did you create this letter to send? Yes. And what was the purpose? She writes, she says, I have been dealing with so much online and if they needed me, I was there.

So after you sent that letter in December of 22, did you hear from law enforcement again? Yes, an officer showed up at my house with a pitcher of Shelby Duncan. He thought it was my sister-in-law. I said, no, that's Shelby Duncan. He said, that's Shelby Hicks. I said, no, is Shelby Duncan? He said Hicks again, and she corrected him, and then he left. Did you hear from law enforcement again?

No. Did you hear from me? Answer, yeah, for the deposition this spring. I heard from you. She was referring to a letter. She sent the prosecution, which says, quote, I put that in because everything was on Facebook. It was a call for help and I didn't receive it.

Question, do you know if you saw Richard Allen? No. And then there is a cross-exam, female. There is a cross-exam and with diner. And she says, question, do you remember your meeting with law enforcement on 228-17? cross-exam with Cheyenne. Do you remember your meeting with law enforcement on February 28, 2017? Cheyenne answers yes.

Do you recall telling law enforcement you passed a man with a camera around his neck? Yes. Was he taking photos? I don't know. Then she says that he just had something around his neck. Question. Was the man walking to cars? I don't know.

I was headed to the bridge and he was behind. me. Question, you received a call at 312 in between the mirror's entrance and the bridge. Answer, yes. Do you recall where you were on the trail? Answer, I don't remember, but I did have self-service, so I wasn't that far on. Well, when you take the first pictures, when you took the first pictures, you know that it was 3.49 p.m., correct? Yes. And you had already gone to the bathroom in that moment? Yes. So the first photo is with Shelby Duncan's feet that was taken at 355 and that was still on the high bridge. Yes, the first platform. So after you stopped taking pictures, you sat and had two cigarettes? Yes. And so when you stepped off the bridge,

what side did you step off of? Answer, if I'm stepping, if I'm standing on the bridge, I stepped off the right side. Redirect with the prosecution. Are those notes things that you prepared way back in time? No, I prepared them two days before my deposition. It was the first time I'd heard from the prosecutions. Stacey called me, said she wanted to make sure her timeline was correct. Jury questions for Cheyenne. Did you see or hear any vehicles on the road under the bridge? There is no road.

It looks straight down. It's water. That's her answer. Question. If it's 349, if 349 is the, end of the bridge and 355 is back to the beginning, did it take you six minutes to cross? The first photo is not at the end. It's, it is part of the way back to the north side. I thought those were, those are astute questions. This jury is interesting. They're,

paying attention. All right. Checking on everyone. Okay, I'm going to keep going. Teresa Leibert is the is the witness. Now the defense's witness number two, Baldwin is doing the questioning. This is an older woman, she has gray hair, can cardigan, a teal shirt.

They ask where she resides. And Teresa says 625 West, 625 West. What is at the end of 625 West? She says her house. Teresa says our house. What is after? your house, Brad Weber's lane? And how long have you lived at your house? Forty-eight years,

Teresa says, do you know the Weber's? Yes. Is there a gate? Yes, the gate is on her property. They show the aerial map on the screen of Teresa's property and Baldwin points to things. Do you recognize what that is? She says, yes, the high bridge. What is this lane right here? That would have been the lane we're talking about, where my house is. Where would the gate be? She points to it. Where's Mr. Weber's house. Well, she can't tell on the map. Have you ever been to Weber's house? Only once. How many entrances are there? Hold on. Sorry, guys. I gotta get comfortable. Baldwin asks, how many entrances are there? Teresa. Well, he made another one because I wanted to keep mine closed in the winter. Question, are there other houses on 625 north? Answer, yes, there are three houses on the left

side before getting to my house. She mentions a couple on the right as well. Are there any mailboxes in that area? Yes. Do you remember February 13, 2017? Yes. Tell the jury what happened that day. Teresa says, well, we were coming back into town at 8.30 a.m. and I saw someone standing at the mailboxes. I thought it was strange. When she got out of the car, he was gone. Did you make a comment to your husband? Yes. Could you describe what the person looked like. She, Teresa says,

no, we were just passing. I just glanced. I said something about, said something about not be nice to stare. So she didn't really notice. Well, if that person continued past your house and gate,

where would they end up? Didn't get that answer completely. Did you talk to law enforcement and tell them what you saw at this time? Answer, yes. Why did you report? this. She said, well, because there were two little girls that were missing and because they asked us to report anything we saw. How long of a walk from your house to the high bridge? It's a good walk, but not too far. Now we have a cross-exam with, or across again with

Teresa, and this time it's the Trell. Later that afternoon, Lutrell asks Teresa, girls were walking around to houses looking for someone. Did they come to your house? No. Have you ever seen them again? No. You have never seen him again, the man. No. You've never seen his face? No. You've never seen a photo of him. No. Redirect. Did this person that you saw look like a neighbor? Treesa says no. Jury questions. On February 13th, 2017, there was no school. Could you have possibly seen a high school student, the judge? she says no and then we're done court concludes around 5 p.m and before leaving baldwin says the defense has filed a couple of motions and they're having a hard time charting their course so they just want to know when she will rule goal says it just came across her desk late yesterday and she also wasn't sure whether or not the prosecution plans on doing a written response the cleveland says he was just planning to deal with that in the courtroom and they conclude and there you go

And that concludes a very important, the very important day in court of October 13th, 2024. I will either be back later tonight with today's day in court, which is just wrapping up, or I'll do it quickly tomorrow. But we will be back on schedule shortly, and I am already preparing my trip back to Delphi so that we will continue to remain on time with our day. daily court, our daily trial notes that we continue to give while there are no cameras nor audio in the Richard Allen trial. Juju Bean is saying, I want to hear what Dr. John thinks. We have quite a few new subscribers since covering Delphi. And so for those that are new and only following Delphi, my co-host is my husband.

And he is a criminal psychologist, Dr. John Matthias. and he is going to share more soon. As of right now, we are planning to share something on Patreon. We've talked about it today briefly. I think what we're going to discuss is false confessions and what those look like. He is going over the notes from court on October 31st as well, the notes I just read to you.

And many people have questions about false confessions versus real confessions and coerced confessions. And I'm going to ask John a few questions when it comes to a longer, more official public, very public episode. We are planning. And actually, John and I are planning an entire series on Delphi once the trial wraps up. Of course, you know, with John handling everything at home, he is not able to keep up on the one in the courtroom. So thank you to those. that support us over on Patreon. Patreon.com slash into crime.

We have bonus episodes there, many bonus episodes. And John and I, while we are together, we are going to record one of those and talk about the Delphi, my experience in Delphi and at the Richard Allen trial thus far

and talk about confessions in general, faults versus authentic confessions. and I'm going to ask him some things. I am going to take off because I've got to go start working on today in court. So I've got to jump on that. Thank you, everyone. Thank you for your support.

For those here that want to support us. And the biggest way you can support us is by subscribing and liking our videos and sharing with your friends so that we can keep doing this and keep. doing what we're doing. Thank you so much. All right. We'll see you guys. Bye-bye. Most people don't realize

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