Hidden True Crime - DELPHI: Richard Allen Trial Days 13 and 14 Friday 11/1 -Sat 11/2 The Defense Continues and shows videos of Allen's incarceration

Episode Date: November 11, 2024

Lauren Matthias is inside the Courtroom in Delphi, Indiana for the trial of Richard Allen, and bringing us the very latest from Carroll County as the trial has no audio or video recording. Richard Allen is charged with murdering 13-year-old Abigail Williams and 14-year-old Liberty German in 2017. About Hidden True Crime: Lauren Matthias, a former television reporter, and her husband Dr. John Matthias, a criminal psychologist, started Hidden True Crime in 2020 with their Season, 'Beyond the Veil,' a psychological deep dive into the doomsday murders and prophet. What started as a simple conversation at their dinner table became a captivating podcast. Join the dynamic duo of Dr. John Matthias, a forensic psychologist, and Lauren Matthias, an investigative journalist, as they delve into the psychological facets of unthinkable crimes every week. Their unique perspectives and in-depth analysis offer a fresh take on true crime storytelling. Thank you for your support through sponsorships, subscribing, listening, and becoming a Patreon member at Patreon.com/HiddenTrueCrime Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Additional terms apply. See Verizon.com for details. We're going to cover two days today of the rich. Allen Trial in Delphi, Indiana. And we are going to start with November 1st. It's Friday, 2024. It's the first full day of the defense. And then we are going to jump directly to today.

Today is Saturday, November 2nd, 2024. The court is going on Saturdays. And it was a half day today. And we're going to go over everything. that happened in court. So, as I always say, when it comes to this trial in the day's events, let's get to it. Let's just go over everything that we know has happened. So first full day of defense.

Also, I want everyone to know I did slow down chat a little bit more today. Usually I slow it down as more people come in, not that many people are here, but because I don't always get to see the chat. and I don't always see what the mods request. I've slowed it down in the beginning. So forgive me. Friday, November 1st, Richard Allen is wearing a lavender and white plaid shirt.

And Richard Allen entered the courtroom. This was interesting with a coffee in hand. He actually had, according to some witnesses, a fairly nice coffee mug. And he entered with that. The witness, first witness is Christopher Gotee. and he was questioned by, of course, this is the defense's witness,

and he's questioned by Oge, the female defense attorney. And right when they introduce him, there is an immediate, very long side bar. Then we get to it. Question from the defense, where do you work? Christopher Gauti says,

the Hammond Police Department, question, how long have you? work there since August oh excuse me since 2025 they then discuss all of his training all of his background do you have a training in interviewing they ask

Hammond and he states Christopher Gotey states excuse me Hammond Police Department Christopher Gotee do you have any other training they asked Christopher Gotee the Reed School

read all in cats what is the Reed School? he explains that it's a technique by a guy named Reed. And what do you include in your reports from interviews? And would you agree that it is important to be accurate? Yes. Were you a part of any specific task course?

Task force, excuse me. Yes, the FBI grit. And what is grit? Gotee says grit stands for gang responsive investigative team. It is embedded with the FBI for violent crimes, and they give examples of what a violent crime is, like murder, kidnapping, burglary, etc. How long were you a part of grit? Christopher Gauti says 20, 2014 until now. Is the FBI a part of that group? They lead the group. Did you assist in the investigation for the murders of Abby Williams and Liberty German?

Yes. What did you do? He says, I assisted with Canvas interviews. We couldn't get the full answer here, but that he worked with Adam Poole. How many interviews did you and Adam conduct? Answer, I don't know. More than 10? Maybe.

Around that number? Not sure. How long were you working the investigation? Initially, a couple of weeks plus a few days. Between 14 and 21, sounds right. Did you do anything beyond interviews or besides interviews? Not that I remember. Was interviewing a full-time responsibility?

Yes. Did you speak to Brad Weber? Again, remember Brad Weber is the owner of the van who lives near the Monon High Bridge Trail. So did you speak to Brad Weber about the events on 213, 2017? Yes, he did. That would be the day Abby and Libby were murdered. Do you recall the conversation? Yes.

Can you tell us what he told you about whereabouts? There's an objection for hearsay, answer that Brad Weber said he wasn't home. And then they asked him, like straight home. He wasn't, he can go straight home? Answer. I don't know. Question, can you tell me what the FBI report, 302 is. He says it's a report of statement. Goatee is then shown the report. When you, when did you speak to Weber? And they set some foundational questions because they need to, you know, explain why they are asking Goethe these questions. Is this all in the report you wrote? No. Is this report written by Adam? Yes. So, and then the answer to the

report it was written on February 19th, so just a little over a month after. Do you recall what Brad Weber said he was doing after work? He was going home. Did he stop anywhere? I'm not sure. Did you read the report? Yes. It didn't refresh your memory? No. Are you generally accurate reporting? Objection and the objection is sustained by the judge. And then there is no cross and no jury questions. Witness two. Deanna Dwayner. And it's going to be, she is going to be questioned.

It's the defense's next witness for the day yesterday. And she is going to be a question by Rosie. What is your level of education? Doctorate in psychology from Chicago School of Psychology. So again, this is one second. let me turn my phone off, forgive me everyone. Does anybody else's phone going off with election requests to vote? I can't get around them.

But I guess it's not my turn to say, don't forget to vote if you are in the United States. All right. So back to Deanna Dwayner. So doctorate of psychology, this is a psychologist that the defense is calling. I'm very interested in what she has to say. Again, question by Rosie. Where do you work? She is the director of behavioral health to Indiana Department of Corrections and has done this since January of 2021. She says that she is employed by the state, one of three integral providers she oversees contracts with Centurion.

Are you generally familiar with Mr. Allen? Generally, yes. Are you familiar that he was housed in the Department of Corrections from November, 2022 until recently. Yes, I oversaw the contract that provided his care. Did Dr. Walla work for Centurion? Yes. And you oversaw her? Well, Dr. Caras was her boss. I worked hand in hand with that doctor. So not Dr. Wallace's direct boss. Do you recall Alan was housed at the Westfield correctional, in the Westville Correctional, yes. And that's about 100 miles from here, correct? Correct. And at some point was Mr. Allen transferred to Wabash, Wabash Valley? Yes, I'm working on that pronunciation, guys. Which is a couple of hundred miles south.

Yes. Have you met Mr. Allen? No. Did you play a role in him being moved to Wabash? Wabash. True story, guys. I have practiced pronouncing this. And I just want to apologize right now to all Indiana natives because I have worked

really hard on this, and I think that's why I'm so nervous. Do you know who made the decision to move him? No. They then go over the three designated men's mental health facilities. Newcastle is the most acute facility, Pentleton, and the other one. And was Allen held in the mental health unit there? No. Did Dr. Wall inform you that she had a personal interest in this case?

Yes. was this before or after she started treating him after? Did you know that she was spending personal time on this case? And by the way, what Dr. Wall had testified to you to refresh anyone's memory is that she listened to numerous podcasts about the case. She has an interest in true crime and would listen to podcasts on her commute. and before she, she treated Richard Allen as well as during treating Mr. Allen. She had an interest in Abby and Libby's case. So just for background.

There have been rumors that she was podcasting about it. She was listening to podcasts as far as testimony has told us. She contacted me in early 2023 to see if Richard Allen... Okay, so did she told you that she had an interest? Yes. And did you know she was spending personal time on the case? Her answer is she contacted me in early 2023 to see if Richard Allen could have a visit with Kathy Allen, his wife. She alluded to being a true crime fan and told me that there's a podcast and gave me a brief summary of the case. And she says that she was recommended to a podcast actually by Dr. Walla. And were you aware that Dr. Walla had actually visited the crime scene? Rosie asks. Yes. Well, as a psychologist, is that unusual? Answer, well, she said it's unusual for a treating psychology to go, but she had done that before he was her patient. And she lived in Chicago at the time, yes. And she came down to see the crime scene. Yes. There's a sidebar. Rose,

keeps calling it a crime scene. But what while it testified before is that she went to the bridge and not the crime scene, so they sidebarred over this, understandably, and they came back to clarify. Makes sense. That's important. So let's start over. They say, did she tell you she went to the Monon High Bridge? Yes.

Do you know Dr. Martin? Yes. She explains that Dr. Martin is a psychiatrist, which handles symptom management with medication. Again, psychiatrists, my brother has to be a psychiatrist. He does the drugs and the prescriptions, at least in most states. Some states, actually, as a psychologist, you can't prescribe. But the psychologist is not subscribing here in Indiana. They're treating his mental health and talking to him.

So Dr. Martin is the psychiatrist, which handles symptom management with medication. The therapist, Dr. Wallet does not do that. Dr. Martin was his psychiatrist in Westville. And they asked if he would have been part of the decision making to involuntarily administering Haldol. Yes. And have you ever met Dr. Martin? Have you ever met him once? Dr. Martin.

Does he still work for the Department of Corrections? No. Is it accurate that Allen was classified as a safekeeping when he showed up to Westville? Yes. Was he assessed before Westville? Yes. Did he have a D code? Yes.

And now they tell the jury what is a D code. They explain all of the codes. And again, we learned this earlier, A, B, C, and D, and E. And so E being the most, the highest sort of code for mental health problems, A being the healthiest. Richard Allen came in as a D code. They explain all the codes. there are no active treatment plan on medic so a means no active treatment plan

B means that they are on medication that they might be on forever they think treating anxiety depression etc and they may have mental health issues but they do group treatment anger management etc and with d you do individual therapy that's where dr walla came in and e you actually go to a mental health unit is it rare rosy asked to treat someone with no criminal history as a safekeeper. She's not sure about the criminal history of regular safekeepers. They currently have nine safekeepers to her knowledge. She says the most safekeepers come because the jail cannot manage them.

She says they don't do competency restoration. Usually if someone needs that, they go to Newcastle first until there is room at the state hospital and they can be transferred. Question, have you ever worked with a safekeeper at the, Westville Correctional Unit before? No. Do you know why Mr. Allen was placed at the Westville Correctional Unit? No. Were you aware that he was regularly being threatened? I have heard, she says. Were you aware he was on camera in his cell? Yes. At all times? Yes. She confirms he was on the movement camcorder when he was out of his cell. And did you recommend that the cameras be

removed. Yes, she was concerned about his depression and the effect it was having on the depression. And did that happen, Rosie asks, not to my knowledge. Did you watch the in-cell and movement videos? And by the way, in-cell, so you know it's not, in-cell is in-space cell, meaning the in-cell camera, just to clarify moving forward what in-cell means. When you watch the in-cell video, the inside the prison cell video. No. Is it understood that confining someone in solitary can be damaging to their mental health? Yes.

Would you agree that the longer someone is held in solitary, the worst their mental health can get? She agrees it can, but says that there are lots of studies. Prison in and of itself is damaging. She references studies of sensory deprivation. and longevity. Some studies say it's not more damaging than jail, and others say that it is worse. Does the Department of Corrections have strict policies regarding confinement? Yes, there is a 30-day limit. When it comes to mental health, 30 days is in my mental health policy for people. When it comes to mental health, 30 days is in the mental health policy for people with severe mental health.

Do you agree that Mr. Allen fell within that classification? I do. Was the policy created to respond to concerns about the risk long-term solitary confinement composed to a person's brain? Yes. Was Mr. Allen designated as a safekeeper? Yes. Why wasn't he moved out after 30 days? They explained that they weren't sure if the policy applied to him because of his designation as a safekeeper.

She says they did discuss it. Is it accurate to say someone designated as a safekeeper can still be harmed? Yes. Did he meet the criteria for serious mental illness at some points? Yes. Did he meet criteria for being gravely disabled at some points? Yes. The goal of the safekeeping plan is to prevent harm? Yes. Would you agree that segregation for individuals like Allen could lead to additional issues? objection leading the witness and it is sustained is it possible they reword for someone's long-term segregated oje rewards is it possible for someone's long-term segregation that it could lead to additional harm yes then they and then the defense tells the jury about about difference between mental health monitoring and treatment mental health they're asking excuse me the defense is asking the witness to tell the jury the difference between mental health monitoring and the difference of treatment. So she states, Dwayneur states, mental health monitoring means they have

restrictive housing. They get short sessions and check-ins. And then they talk about the therapy cubicle. Would you agree that the conditions of the therapy sessions were not ideal? And her answer is they are not ideal. Would you agree, It is not consistent with normal therapy sessions. Yes. At some point, there is an objection in Deiner asked foundational questions. Were you aware of the frequency of Mr. Allen's therapy visits? And she said, yes, they should be every day because he was on suicide watch.

And he was on S watch from his arrival until August, correct? Yes. And he received daily visits? Yes. All right. And you were on the multidisciplinary team that meant to discuss Mr. Allen, right? Yes. And you were in some ways directly responsible for his care? No, I didn't provide clinical care. I was kind of like a sounding board. Do you agree segregation of mentally ill offenders is toxic to their mental health? Yes. And that applies to Mr. Allen? Yes. She, they explained then, she explains then that with the Department of Correction policy, if someone is in restrictive housing but they have serious mental illness, they have to do certain things to keep them from deteriorating. And one of those options can be transferring them to a mental health unit. Has the Department of Correction been involved in lawsuits regarding treatment of mentally ill offenders?

Objection. And now we have across. with the prosecution. Now it's their turned across, examine the witness. So we have the prosecution. The state is up next. I'm going to check chat before we get there. How's everyone doing?

Okay, everyone can hear me. Good to see everybody here. First question by the state. Are you familiar with Mr. Allen's assessment at the Department of Corrections? Yes. and by definition was he mentally ill? No, not until he deteriorated at Westville.

They asked about when she first was contacted about Mr. Allen. She answers that she was first contacted in April of 2023, and this would be when Dr. Wallach came to her regarding him having a visit with his wife, Kathy. She says that she thought it would be beneficial for his mental health. I reviewed his intake, and shortly after that, the multidisciplinary team MDT was involved. And this is confirmed that it happened in April. So in April of 2023, who contacted you?

Dr. Walla. And what context? She thought that a visit with Kathy would help his mental health. So she was advocating for his mental health. Yes. So Dr. Walla was explaining she was seeing and she was thinking that he was feigning or malingering or faking in other words. And she wanted a second opinion. That is when MDT happened and she asked Dr. Martin to get involved.

Essentially, she was using them as a sounding board. So was the terminology grave disability used at this time? Yes, at that first MDT meeting, he wasn't sleeping and it was unlikely he was going to improve on his own. And so when is the first dated document about MDT, April 13th? And what does grave disability mean in your? her own words. No longer, and her answer, no longer, the doctor's answer, no longer taking care of yourself or activities or daily living, not showering, not eating, not working. If Dr. Walla was

concerned about feigning behavior, how does the MDT approach that? And the answer, if the symptoms were severe enough, he's not eating, not sleeping, it's unlikely. They would get better on their own. So if those things are chosen by him or not, we had to intervene. Do you, do you? Do you, have a personal knowledge about the use of Hal Dahl. Again, Haldol is an anti-psychotic drug, and this was given as an involuntary injection to Richard Allen. Yes, she has personal knowledge of the use of howl. What effect does Haldol have on activities of daily living, also known as ADL? They clarify with the jury, she clarifies with the jury at this point that she is not a psychiatrist. She is a psychologist.

But Haldol is used with psychosis. Grave disability is a symptom of psychosis, Haldol target symptoms to improve the ADL. Does it help them to sleep sometimes? And you knew he was a safekeeper? Yes. The primary goal was to keep him safe? Yes.

He was still provided treatment? Yes. Treatment at Westville Correctional Unit? Yes. Why was he never moved? Answer. She says she's not sure because that wasn't her decision. They go back and forth regarding the lawsuits here again, but it was not allowed to be talked about. And now we have a redirect by Rosie. Is major depressive disorder part of a serious mental illness? No. Was it ever? No. In any literature, objection, and now we have the jury questions for the psychology. and they clearly have a lot of questions, guys,

a lot of questions that jury had for this psychologist. You can see where they're focusing. They're listening and paying attention. If you know, does the Department of Corrections ever place safekeepers in the general population? Yes. Could it be possible Mr. Allen was faking symptoms so he wouldn't be moved to populated areas because he was scared of being harmed? Her answer.

It is possible. I have seen that. But to speculate on his case, I don't have any idea. You stated, Mr. Allen was threatened by inmates. Did you hear them? Answer, no, I have never laid eyes on Mr. Allen. Today is the first time I am seeing him. When faking or not faking mental illness,

can a person slip in truth of a confession? Now, this became a five-ish-minute question. And this is an interesting question by the jury. It is very hard to tell. The doctor starts. I have seen both ways. I have seen people who are psychotic and confessings they have done. And I have also seen people who are psychotic confessings they have not done.

But if someone is faking, yes, it would be. easy to slip in truth. Diener, how can you tell if they are being truthful? Well, the type of conversation is different. A brief personality disorder is very complicated in actually, sorry, this must be a typo. Something personality disorder is very complicated and actually one of the least researched. When speaking with someone, you can evaluate the conversation. The best way to know is to listen to body language and gut.

If you're nodding like a story and it is easy to follow, that's likely feigning or faking. If it's hard to follow and confusing, it's likely not feigning. Is the organization of what you're seeing there? Are there thoughts when they are speaking organized? Is it goal directed or is it not? Is it organized, linear, logical, and chronological? You have to look at what they are saying is related if what they are saying is related to delusional content. She then gives five themes of delusional content and examples.

Hypersexuality. Everyone loves me. I need to get married and have 100 kids. Jealousy. Persecutory. Police are poisoning me with gas to my shower head. Hyper religiosity. I am Jesus or St. Mary are becoming extremely religious.

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Protect yourself now at aura.com slash remove. Dr. Allen experienced hyper-religiosity, hypersexuality, and persecutory. If they have fears or concerns that relate to these themes, it's more likely to be related to psychosis. is delirium a psychotic symptom? Mr. Allen was tested for delirium and it was negative. What would the typical process for a safekeeper with serious mental illness be? Well, the same as anyone, it would be a post adjudication. What is the primary obligation of the Department of Corrections?

Sorry, it just to a safekeeper with serious. mental illness on S-Watch. Then there is a break and a long sidebar. And the next witness is Mack Baker with Rosie. What's one financial lesson you learned the hard way? I'll go first. It's not too late to start saving. Today's episode is sponsored by Acorns.

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What was interesting about that is I thought she did a pretty good job as a defense witness, but it did get interesting when the jury questions happened. I mean, at that point, it's neither the defense or the prosecution's witness. It's the jury, right? The jury gets asked the questions. That's why I find it so interesting. about cases that have questions from the jury. The next witness, Max Baker questioned.

Max is questioned by Rosie. And just an observation, Max looks like he is almost in his young 20s, but very well spoken and confident on the stand. He was likely the loudest witness so far. Thank you, Max Baker. What is your education? He just graduated with, I just graduated. with my bachelor's in public policies.

Who do you work for, myself? For how long? Two years. Oh, excuse me. I was, okay. Okay, let's start over. Who do you work for? You telling that to Rosie.

Okay, so he just graduated with his bachelor's in public policies. Who do you work for? You. And for how long? Two years. And what do you do? I'm an intern. I do clerical work,

subpoenas, documents. Is one of your primary responsibilities this case? Yes. Or how long have you been working on it? Since November of 2022. Were you here for Harshman's testimony? Yes. Did you have a similar role as Harshman in terms of looking at footage? Yes. Are you familiar with phone calls and videos from Westville Correctional Facility? Yes. Did I ask you, this is Rosie asking, did I ask you to compile videos from Westville to assist the jury in understanding Mr. Allen's mental state. Yes. Explain to the jury how we acquired this footage.

It was served in the discovery. Explain how you compiled this footage. Max explains that there are two sections. He has broken them up into these sections. Camcorder footage shows showers, medical visits, and when he is in the part of his cell, where he can't be seen and on his cell camera. And then there is the security camera from the cell. Is there audio and video on the movement cam? Yes. Is there video only for the cell cam? Yes. And it was given to us like this. Yes. So we are

not accusing anyone or doing anything with this audio. No. Tell the jury generally what time most of these videos were taken? Answer, there is no timestamps on these videos. I could piece times from the report and discovery. I can say there were from November, 2022 to December of 2023. Can you look at the files to see when they were modified and when anyone had access? Yes. Does that help you with the timeframe? Yes, it gives us a general idea. The video cannot be created before it is modified. Max has asked how we collected the video from a chronological standpoint. He answers that they basically did a control group and on the 15th of every month, they would take one video clip from the 8 a.m. to 2 p.m. time frame to show the progression of Richard Allen's mental state.

Only did one selection to keep it, they only did one selection to keep its standard. And then he gathered chunks of videos from months, April, June, May, and July that goes with the climax of his mental health. Is this climax based off of what Dr. Walla and State said? Yes. The thumb drive is shown as evidence. question. Max is asked to then explain the spreadsheets he created, and the sheets Y, Y, Z, Z, they detail which each video in the filing from the state is, and the sheet Y Y Y is for movement camcorder, the info of when the video file was modified, the length of the video, sheet ZZ is for the in-cell camera, has a date, selection of time, in the cell has real time, sidebar at the bottom shows date and time.

All right. Max says that he, you forgot to mention that in the cell video, it only records movement. So there were times when Mr. Allen would be completely still and there were no recordings. Do you believe that these exhibits would be helpful? Yes. They moved to admit there's a sidebar. And at this point, someone in the gallery notices, Kathy and Richard's Allen sister had left at this point. So they left the courtroom before these videos are shown in this exhibit. After the sidebar, the judge talks about three objections that were made. She goes very fast, but basically the final ruling is that they would only be allowed to show video footage from April, May, June, and July,

and that the movement video will not have audio as that is prohibited. There's a 15-minute recess. They're back in session, and there's an immediate sidebar. I notice at this point that the person writing these notes notices at this point that Alan kept looking towards Kathy's empty chair. She sits in the same place every day and she was not there. After the sidebar, Rosie says he is moving to admit eight entries, but that he would not be moving to admit that in-cell video right now seems like he wanted to play another day. Max is still on the stand during all of this. Question, did we compile and combine clips from April, May, June, July?

to the best of your ability, Max has asked, yes. And did you make an attempt to keep limited to those months? Yes, Maxes. And to the best of your ability, yes. And now the judge request counsel to come to the table. There are preliminary questions. How did you determine when these videos were taken? Well, I received the discovery and a summer beginning of fall 23.

That was my first starting point because they could not have been taken after then. There are also ranges given to us and I used reports of these things in there to narrow it down. More questions about, oh, to narrow. More questions about narrowing and if you saw things in videos that were in the reports. Do all of these videos come before April? I think so. Judge Goal then states that we need to be sure that these videos are from those specific months before they can be played. She is sending jury out for lunch, but this will not be in indefinite lunch.

so she asks defense if they would like to recess max and continue on with the rest of their witnesses for the day and then revisit. And the defense agrees and lunches started. So we moved on for that. We'll get to them today. Next witness, Brad Heath, being questioned by Rosie. How old are you, Brad, 70 years old? Are you working or retired? I retired five years ago.

go. Who were you working for? Reliable exterminators. Were you working for them in 2017? Yes. Did you have a daily route or regular customers? Several customers on monthly by monthly schedules. I also did individual jobs. Did you visit a customer on 21317 near the Monon Highbridge? Answer, well, yes. In the morning, I worked west of Delphi and in the afternoon I did the Andersons, which is by the Monon Highbridge. and then a map is shown. Is it fair to say that this is the Hoosier Highway? Yes. The bridge is referred to as the Freedom Bridge.

Yes. And these structures up here, they are referred to as Andersons. Ah, so now we learn who the Andersons really are. It's a structure. Yes. And they point out a small packing building. And this small packing building is on the Anderson's property. And on that day, did you go to this building? Yes. And why? To service it? What time? My first scan was at 133. My last scan was at 206. There are hands now that enlarge images of scans. Does this reflect your work activities accurately? Yes. Did you recover this doc or did someone else? I requested it. Why did you go get this? Because of the vehicle I saw that day. I first saw it.

driving on Heartland. It was still there in the afternoon. So you got it to confirm the time. Yes. Points to place on map. Are you familiar with this location? Yes, I call it the CPS building. I just lost my place, guys. There we go. Okay. And the car, yes, I refer to it as a CPS building. Forgive me, guys. Here we go. And you mentioned the vehicle you saw in the morning. You all also saw in the afternoon. Where did you see it? On the road, parked off the west side about two feet. And what do you recall about the car? Well, it was an older, dark blue faded and it looked out of place. So then you went and worked on the west side of Delphi? Yes. And then you came back in the afternoon? Yes. Then he was asked about what time he was at Anderson's between 143 and 206 p.m.

Were you contacted by law enforcement? No. I went in once I went in once I realized what had happened and what I saw. He has asked if he has talked to law enforcement since that first time. Yes. Did you prompt these? Yes. How many times?

A few times between several. months. Last time was not too long ago. I was watching the fugitive movie and thought the car in there looked very similar. There was this late 80s, early 90s, like I have always said. Did you contact law enforcement? Yes. They show him a photo. Does this photo look like the vehicle that you saw in 2017? It is similar. How? Well, the shape? The four doors. It's an older vehicle. And then they pass witness on to Deiner, and she shows them the same pick. Does this video accurately reflect what you saw? His answer, as closely as I can tell, I was 100 to 150 yards away from it. Do you have any idea of cars were parked in the CPS lot? No, they could have been, but I wasn't paying any attention because

I'm used to seeing vehicles there. Then the witness has passed back to the defense. The car you saw was not parked at the CPS building? No. Next witness, David McCain, and he was questioned by Baldwin. And checking on everyone. Okay. Hey, everyone. Okay. Next witness is David McCain. Again, David McCain is questioned by Baldwin. Another defense witness. Where do you live on Carrollton Road, just north of Delphi city limits and how long have you lived there for the past 24 years? And have you lived here all of your life? I was out of state for 30 years, but you're familiar with Delphi? Yes.

Have you been involved in volunteer activity? Yes. Anything related to the trail? Well, I was a project manager for development of the trail through a nonprofit and a member of the Deer Creek Township Board. Is it fair to say you're very familiar with the evolution of the Monon High Bridge? Yes. As a child.

I went to the trail. In 2013, we were trying to acquire and develop the trail. My brother was also involved in that a little bit earlier. Well, how familiar are you with the trail? Very familiar. He gives a long explanation on the construction, including saying that he had an engineer examine it when they were trying to acquire it.

Have you ever been there on the trail many times? When was the last time? Well, I haven't been across the full thing in years, but I was out there about a week or so ago. And how old are you? 79. So you at 79 years old, do you go on that high bridge? Yeah. Do you remember the day of February 13th, 2017? Yeah. Were you on the Monon Trail and Highbridge? Yes. Approximately what time did you get to the trail? I'm not too sure, but I was out there for over an hour sometime between 2 and 4 p.m. Where would you park? Sherry Lane, which is across from Sherry Mears, How? house. Would it ever be called Mitch's? Yes. What about the Mears entrance? Yeah, also the same thing

called that. Did you ever park anywhere else? He says sometimes and then he listed a ton of different places. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers, spammers, even stalkers. It's why you get endless robocalls and why ads seem to follow you everywhere. That's where ORA comes in. Ora actively removes your data from broker sites and keeps it off. They also instantly alert you if your information shows up in a breach or on the dark web. But ORA goes beyond data protection. With one app, you get a VPN,

antivirus, password manager, spam call protection, dark web monitoring, and even up to $5 million in identity theft insurance. All backed by 24-7 U.S.-based fraud support. Other companies might sell just credit monitoring or just a VPN. ORA gives you all of it together at the same price competitors charge for just one service. Start your free trial today at aura.com slash remove. Protect yourself now at aura.com slash remove. Where he would sometimes park. So on the 13th, you believe you got there somewhere between 2 and 3 p.m.

Yeah, that's probably right. What did you do when you arrived at the mirror's entrance? He says, well, David says I parked and there were no other cars. I walked towards the high bridge. Which way did you go? I probably went straight towards the high bridge, but says he may have taken a little detour towards the freedom bridge, but thinks he went straight towards the high bridge. But you did go to the bridge at some point? Yes. What did you do there? I took photographs. Did you get on the bridge? Yes. How far did you go? I think only to the water, which is not too far onto the bridge. Are you over the water on the first platform? Are you over the water on the first

form, yes. Could you see through the water on that day? Was it a clear day? Answer, the bridge is 60 feet over on a clear day you can see the rocks. Where you're using your phone or camera? Camera. What kind of camera? A digital camera that is exceptionally good at magnification. How long do you think you're on the bridge? Less than a half an hour. When you walk from Amir's entrance to the high bridge, did you see anyone? He talks about how he thinks he saw a man and a woman when he got off. Were they approaching the high bridge? He says, I think that's true. I honestly can't say. I didn't see them when leaving or arriving. Basically, it could have been either one and he's not too sure. Did you see anyone else? I'm not sure it was seven years ago. I vaguely remember

seeing people off in the distance. You went and got in your car and left? I don't quite remember. I spent time taking photos on Mitch's property. I have a particular interest in the trees there and there was an oak tree. He took the 505 trail to get there. What time did you leave? Before 4 p.m., not sure I wasn't paying attention. What happened after you left? Well, I was surprised at the number of vehicles by the MIR's entrance. I quickly got in my car and I went straight home.

Did you see anyone walking down the road? No, I did not see any pedestrians on 300 north. But did you see people here? And he points to the MIR's entrance. Yes. If you went left, would you pass the CPS slot? CPS? He is confused, so they move on. At some point, did you hear anything about the missing girls?

At first, someone shouted, have you seen the girls? Maybe two girls? And I shouted, no. So that's interesting. So he's there at this moment. Did you hear any unusual sounds or noises on the bridge? No. Any at all? No. After you left, what's the next thing you remember? Well, I was at home, I guess. And that night, I was at an HHI meeting and law enforcement came and said they were investigating lost children and we were all concerned.

Did you go to law enforcement or did they come to you at some point? Yes, I wanted to let them know less than a week later to FBI agents and a member of the state police came to my house and the FBI interviewed me. Did you give them the same info as you are today? Yes, but my memory was better back then. Did you give them anything? Yeah, I gave them my data card from my camera. He then says he was interviewed several times and then two to three years later he was called in wanting to know

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Sponsored by Chumba Casino. Okay. Betrell questions him about the length of time he was on the trail. An hour, maybe a little longer, and he says that's not true. Well, when you were interviewed, did the FBI take notes? Yes. So they're given interview notes to refresh before being re-asked about the length of time. One agent questioned me and one wrote what I was saying.

I would take that to be more accurate than what I remember. So as you were leaving, you heard a mound shouting, man shouting, yes. Was it on or approaching Sherry's lane? And he said he seemed to be going across Sherry's lane. Was it a large man? yes, a bright orange jacket. Portly. Portly, I didn't see his face. And he shouted a question, yes. What was it? Something like, have you seen the girls? Did he seem concerned? Yes, just by shouting. Did you arrive there at about 3.15? That sounds about right. It could have been 2.30. I wasn't paying

attention to the time. But you were leaving when the man was shouting. Yes. Did he, did he, did Did you have a camera around your neck? Probably, I often carry it around my hand. Then there's a Baldwin redirect. Could it have been longer than an hour? Yes. Shorter? Yes, but more likely longer.

Was one of the officers who interviewed you named Goatee. I don't remember. If I showed you, would you remember? No. The next witness is Daryl Stirrett. Also questioned by Baldwin. Daryl starts by saying he is 57 years old. He was born and raised here and is in the class of 85.

He has been a firefighter for 36 years and then he gets all of his certifications. What year were you the fire chief? It was from September 2020 or 2021 sometime during COVID. What do you remember about February 13th? Well, I was doing a bid review at the station in the morning from nine until three or four. I was back at the station around six and was setting up for training. They even started, which was CPR at some point during or after, word came in about two missing juveniles and we were requested by law enforcement to assist. So I went to the joint command at the sheriff's office.

And once you got to the joint command, what happened? Well, we tried to filter out where the girls may have been. I sent people out on leads to friends' houses and other places. We searched the town area a lot of places. What caused you to go where you went? I was taking direction through dispatch. As info was coming in, we would search that area. Who was at Joint Command before you went out?

Well, myself, Steve Mullen, a couple of deputies and dispatchers. Who was in charge? Steve and Toby directed most of it. Were you in communication with people at the station? Yes, my firefighters at the station would contact by phone and radio. He basically, he looks at a basic report from the evening. Do you recognize this? Yes.

Does it fairly and accurately represent what you recall that night? Yes. The left hand side says responded about, and a bunch of names are checked off. What does that mean? Well, it means that they were involved, their name would be checked off. if it was an account of who participated. What event was this? Well, it was the search of the girls.

Are there some officers, firefighters on that sheet? Yes. Not all people were on duty that day, correct? No. Not all of these people were on duty that day. We were all on duty. Did they come to the station? We were already there for training.

What is the other side of the document? This is an incident log of what happened. It says it was received at 1901. Yes, at 7.01 p.m. Same thing as notified. Was there a point in time members of the fire department got to the bridge? Yes. Around what time?

930 to 10. Did you drive by yourself or go with others? As I recall, a group of about six went with me to the bridge. I have my own personal vehicle, so I drive. There were maybe one to do fire trucks and my vehicle. Where specifically did you drive out there? And he says he drove this morning to, he says he drove this morning before testifying to refresh.

I entered off the 625 west and I drove to the end of 625 where it turns private. I believe I parked at the end of 625 where it turns to gravel. Are there houses on the left? Yes. Where did you? park in relation to the last house on the left, in their yard. What did you do after? I met up with the team. Some of us walked to the high bridge. Another vehicle drove that direction. Why did you go there? I believed I was requested to through dispatch or the sheriff. The vehicle was there for light?

If we needed light, it would be useful. Do you remember if there were any lights near the high bridge and what kind? Lights to illuminate, maybe big Hollywood lights. He refers to. You refers to to the map, they show where he parked versus walked to. And you were searching in this area, right here? Yes, that's the creek, though. We were not in the creek. We were south and west of the bridge, and we were on land. Oh, how many people with you were involved in the search of that area? About five to six. Do you remember where you started, the southwest side? What was the style of search? I ordered a hasty search of the area, boots on the ground. It was February, and I was thinking two girls were exposed to the elements,

hunker down, cold, and scared. Were you arm and arm? No, this was not an organized search. I told guys to just start searching. How far apart were all the men? It varied. He said they concentrated their search more south and west of the bridge. Do you remember taking a deposition?

I do. You told me yesterday you reviewed it. I did a bit. What time did you leave? Well, we cleared the station at 2.30 and left the scene at 1.30 to 2. Would it help you refresh your recollection? If I show you where you talk about searching on the east side of the bridge, yes, that would help. As Fire Chief, you ordered a search of that area, the area being the high bridge.

Did you order search of north and south? I ordered the search of the area. Now Baldwin has him read the deposition again and everybody waits while he reads. So did you order the search north and south of the creek? Yes. Both on east and west of Creek? Yes. Do you remember if there were floodlights?

Says he doesn't remember. Baldwin again gives him the deposition to read. He says he still doesn't remember. Baldwin was trying to impeach the witness at this point. Baldwin was trying to impeach and the state says this is improper impeachment. because that's the same answer he gave in the deposition. So who was out there searching other than the firefighter, police officers and family? What about citizens? I do not recall. Baldwin approaches with the deposition again. What about the citizens? There were others out there, civilians? Yes. And when

were you out there searching? How was the light? It was dark. What were you using to see? Hand lamps. How bright were they? Were they able to ramp up the intensity to? tell us, like he explains, they were big boxes. They have a spot setting and a flood light setting. Did you see lights on the opposite side of the creek? Yes. For people using their flashlights searching towards the way of the creek to see if there was anything in the creek. I cannot speak for others, but possibly someone did. Baldwin has him read the deposition again. Were people searching in the water? Objection, foundational questions. You said your team searched the creek up.

Did you have knowledge of what other searches did? No. You said that your team searched the creek up, correct, yes. Do you have knowledge of what other searches did? No. Did anyone on your team see clothing in the creek? No. Did anyone shout,

I found clothes in the creek? No. Were you able to hear people across the creek searching. Did you hear no noises? And then his answer is what page? And people in the gallery actually laugh because what he means is he's going back to the deposition. In other words, were you able to hear people across the creek searching? Did you hear no noises? He's like, look, what page? So he refreshes his memory with a deposition. Were you able? They ask him again, to hear people across the creek. Yes. Are you able to hear people in other areas? Yes.

Is a hasty search intended to cover more ground quickly? Yes. There is no cross-exam. And here are the jury questions. How long ago did you take your deposition and did you get a copy of it right away? His answer, three weeks ago, maybe four. I did not receive a copy. It was mailed to me two weeks after.

Did you search the area southeast of the cemetery? Not personally. No. In other words, that would be the crime scene. or where the bodies of Abby and Libby were found. Afternoon break. And the next witness is Steve Mullen again. And for those of you to refresh your memory,

Steve Mullen has been a, he says he's an investigator. He's been a witness for the state multiple times now. And now he's going to be a witness for the defense. He has been called so many times. So I imagine, get ready. This is going to be some tough questioning. He says he's an investigator. Question, how important is it to preserve the evidence in a case?

It's important. Why? And Steve Mullen has asked. And this is Baldwin question him. Well, because of the integrity of the investigation. And it's important then? The defense asks to the prosecution and the defense. Yes, it's important for both.

Is that important to alert the defense of evidence is missing? Yes. Why? Because of the integrity of the investigation. So what have you failed to preserve? Just straight to it. There's an objection to relevance, and then there is a sidebar. Surprise.

Now we're back. In this case, the defense asks, there were interviews taken early on that were missing. We've heard of these interviews. Here we go. Are there interviews the defense still doesn't have because something happened to them in 2017? Yes. And what were the dates?

From the time my investigation began until March 21st. Would you agree there are dozens and dozens of interviews missing on either side? Yes. Have you drafted a list of interviews? missing. Yes. There's a list of people interviewed on certain dates. Would you agree at the beginning of the case it is important while memories are fresh? Yes. When was this problem discovered? August. What did you do to recreate these interviews for future use? There was nothing I could do to recover. They had been recorded over. This is, yeah, wow.

Did you ask to re-interview the subjects? No. Who of the missing interviews were re-interviewed? I don't know. Was there a single person? I believe there was one. I don't know who. What was your job? He explains that he was an investigator to which Baldwin said,

and you don't know who was re-interviewed. He says he can't without looking at his notes. Molina's asked what reason there was to re-interview that person and he says because they thought the information might be important. Molina's asked if he ever reported the missing videos. He says he drafted a document. Does it have a date on it? No. Did a second group of interviews go missing?

Yes. When? He explains there was a problem with the DVR and they were able to recover video but not audio. Does April 28th to June 2nd sound about right? Yes. Was a list made of people in these interviews? For the most part, yes. Was that given to the defense? They have all the interviews we have.

How is an interview without sound valuable? They're all valuable. How would an interview without sound be valuable? Well, it's important to have sounds. He's then asked if he drafted a report detailing the info of this issue. did. Did you put a date? I don't think I did. There was a question about why he wouldn't be able to put a date. My report, he explains that his report was to happen and the effort they made to recover. He was asked when he was sent the report to the defense sometime before now. And then he goes, well,

February 24 sound correct. Yes. Why did you not provide that earlier? Well, I wanted to answer this. I thought it was in the discovery, so I wanted to make you guys aware. In fact, we didn't know that these videos were missing until when. Objection. Do you know rewording the question? Do you know when? Objection. Was it in the last several months to a year before you informed the defense that there was

missing evidence? Objection. The objection is overruled. And as, you know, so the defense gets to continue and he answers that is correct. Would you agree? that not dating a report is considered sloppy work. No. If you could go back in time, would you not date the report?

He says he would if he knew he would be sitting there today. Do you think this is funny? No. You've been aware for several months that the defense is scrutinizing the way you memorialize your reports. Yes. Are tape recordings a way to memorialize conversations with successful? or witnesses. Yes. Okay, so let's talk about Brad Weber. You called him in August? Yes. To talk to him about whether he drove a van and van straight to his house, yes. They are referring to

the fact that Mullen called Brad to have him come in for an interview. Is it important to memorialize that all so we know whether you put something in his head? Yes. But you didn't? No. So we will never really know. It's detailed in my report. Is the report dated, yes. Got one of these, and Baldwin holds up his phone. Yes. Does it have a tape recorder? It's not a tape recorder, but it does have an audio recorder. Well, can it record? Yes. Why didn't you use your phone to record the conversation? Well, I'm not sure I know how to record while I am making a call. Do you know of a CVS in Delphi? Yes. And they sell tape recorders? I have an audio recorder. why didn't he use the audio recorder?

It's kind of wishy-washy, but doesn't know. If Brad did drive straight home, how long does that take? 20 to 25 minutes. You should have tape recorded that call. No, I could have, but I didn't. If you could do it all over again, would you? I don't see why I would have. This is when they went back to Brad Weber's interview,

and Mullen says that on that call, he made no mention of anything he would be talking about in the interview. We know one time Brad reported driving the white van home from work was in August of this year, correct? Correct. And what other dates? I'm not sure.

Well, it's a pretty big deal you've been making about the van. Yes? Yes. And you don't recall the other dates? No. Was there ever anything in your reports that was different? Answer. Well, I believe he reported driving a Subaru from work one time.

Defense. Well, who else did he talk to? Agent Gochee. Were you here when Gotee testified? I was. And his memory was refreshed that he drove right home, right? But it wasn't refreshed in other aspects of that document? I don't know. Are you aware whether Brad has provided conflicting statements? Yes, he has. Do you know if he has a side job? Yes. What do you know? Well, he has ATM machines. Okay. Do you know if he went to those ATM machines on the way home? Well, answer. He says he went.

home to you he said that to you that he went home yes he said that to harshman and to myself well were you present when brad spoke to agent poke or go tea no well what kind of gun may brad possess i believe a sig sour was there ever a list made of law enforcement walking in around where the bullet was found i'm sorry he says i wasn't at the scene i don't know if there was a list for indiana state police or CSI. Well, do you know if there were any email sent out asking law enforcement near the scene what weapons they have? No. Are you aware of any law enforcement that believe it may have come from law enforcement? No. Would you agree that Richard Allen never said he didn't know which way he traveled to get to the CPS building? He did say something like that. He references watching Richard's

interview. How many people do you think are involved? One, how long have you believed that since the arrest of Richard Allen. Before that, you thought there was more than one? Well, it doesn't matter. That's not, it didn't matter. That's not what the evidence shows. Question. And the defense, what do you believe the maximum time Richard Allen needed? Objection. Question, rewording it. What do you think the evidence shows about the maximum time objection? Tries the question. Again, what time do you think the killer left? So it changes subjects. I don't know. question it would be a major problem for the time like betsy blair for a time like betsy blair didn't see richard allen objection leading question true that is leading testifying without the witness how important

is it if betsy blare identifies richard allen as a person she saw answer mr allen said he was at the bridge what time did he say he said one 30 cameras show we have his car there at one 27 a car answer a car that certainly looks like his. You said, 130. Where did you get that? He references Dan Dullen's interview. Were you standing next to Dan Dullen? No.

How important is it to the timeline that Betsy Blair describes a car that matches Richard Allen's car, objection leading? Rewards it. Why is it important that Betsy Blair describes a car that matches a bridge guy? Well, it's not terribly important.

she mentioned a car, maybe even his. Well, why would it be important that the person Betsy Blair saw at the beginning and Sarah saw at the end to be what you believe is the same person? There is a sidebar. And we're back. Question. What if ever did law enforcement become aware Monica Walla was listening to podcast, Dr. Monica Walla.

I don't know. Was there ever an Amber alert? I don't remember. How many girls were with Bree Wilbur? I think four girls were there. Including her? Yes. You heard the testimony when McCain was here. Yes. They talk about McCain saying the bridge is 65 feet and he doesn't object to that. But have you been to the bridge where the girls were abducted? Yes. Have you gone from the end of the bridge down the hill? Yes. It's a decline of some distance, at least 10 feet. Objection. When down from the initial walk down the hill, when down from the initial walk down the hill, where are you? On Weber's Lane.

If you turn left, would you go under the bridge? Yes. If you went down another layer to the creek, you'd also descend another number of feet. Yes. How many? I don't know. Did you ever measure the area? They say they have topographical maps.

When would be the last time Libby's phone would be under Abby? He keeps saying that he's not sure when he's being asked of everything during this time. Once Richard Allen left the scene, did the phone ever move? No. Did Richard Allen ever take the phone? No. Did Richard Allen ever return to the scene? Not sure.

Are you aware of any search members coming within 100 feet of Libby and Abby on February 13? I don't know. Do you remember looking at the trail camp footage? Yes. There are more questions about the trail cam. Says he's not sure how far that was from the girls' bodies, from where the girls' bodies were found. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the Internet,

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Do you remember when you took it, the deposition, September 13th, and you swore to tell the whole truth and nothing but I, I am. What did the trail camera reveal as to the proximity to the area related to the bodies? There was no audio, only video, and someone was in front of the camera. On the 13th, I believe on the 14th. How close were they? I don't know. You said 100 to 200 feet.

Because I don't know what you're talking about. Well, why would it be important to show the jury where the trail cam is? Mullen is asked to get up and show the jury on the screen where it was. was. Would it help to refresh your recollection on what day by looking at your deposition? His answer is that he explains that his memory is fine and I'm not sure what. And Baldwin just pretty much interrupts him and says page 23, please. What day was the person on the trail cam video? I believe Molin says that he saw them on the 14th and there may have been someone on the 13th. Are you aware of anyone who searched the area upstream near the Monon High Bridge on the 13th?

There are more questions about this trail cam. And the gist is that Mullen says someone was directly in front of the trail camera. Where the bodies found, is it flat? And his answer is, well, your description of flat may not be mine. Okay, we'll describe this area. Well, it's near Creek. It's a flood area. It's kind of like a bowl or a depression.

Is there a steep incline about 100 yards? Yes. What direction? West. Was there another one? Yes. What direction? North. How many tips related to Richard Allen did you receive? I believe only one. What was the tip? It was not a tip. It came to us with information that he was on the trail. If you know approximately how many people were searching the area on the high bridge on the 13th.

I don't know how many exactly. Are you aware of any lists made to show people only the one by the fire department? you and the sheriff were in charge of the search on the 13th. I don't think I was in charge. Were there concerns? The girls may have fallen or been in water. The concern was safety, falling down, being lying, being lost, or hunkering down. Well, the objection says part of the way the search was conducted with flashlights through the trees, objection because Mullen was not there.

Question, do you believe that people were searching east of the bridge on the 13th? The answer. I believe that there were people out there. I know someone went to Brad Weber's house. Question, are you aware of people searching the north of the creek and east of the bridge on the 13th? The answer, I don't know. Well, you heard the chief's testimony today? I did.

Well, how familiar are you with DNA aspects of the investigation? Answer, not particularly. Why did it take so long for unified command to get Kelsey's DNA profile? They were referencing the hair. I don't know anything about that, he says. well, who would you know to be in the best position to know the most about Libby's phone and the data? Christopher Cecil. Baldwin goes to his bag and is in there for a quick minute getting something.

Question. Baldwin comes back. To your knowledge, Baldwin asks, did law enforcement receive numerous tips saying they recognize the voice in the video? Over the years, we've received tips from people who thought the person they heard was someone they knew. How many? several. Dozens? Well, more than that. Hundreds, perhaps. Do you believe, Baldwin asks,

that Richard Allen went back to the scene? I don't know. Baldwin has handed a piece of paper from the prosecution and a sidebar is requested. How many times, so the next question is how many times before Richard Allen was arrested and put in solitary, did he confess to the crimes? I don't know. Now, a cross begins with McLeeland. So now this is the prosecution's turn to be able to ask their questions. Let me check chat. How are we doing? Good to see everybody.

Okay, going back. Cross with McLean. Actually, let me take a drink of water first. Lots of talking here. So now, again, this is the state or the prosecution cross-examining the defenses when this. So McLean says, you interviewed Brad, Weber in August. Yes. You called prior to ask him to come speak to you. Yes. To ask him to come in for an

interview? Yes. You did not discuss the interview topic? I did not. Was the interview recorded? Yes. Did you do a report? Yes. Did he tell you that he went straight home after work that day? Yes. And he drove his van from work. Yes. And you pulled phone records? Yes. and you confirmed his story with phone records yes so brad weber said he got home at about two 30 yes was his was his gun recovered yes he consented to handing it over yes was it lab was it tested at the lab yes was it given back to brad weber yes and now a redirect with baldwin brad weber's gun was not excluded answer well i'm I'm not sure what the lab report said, but it indicated his weapon was not involved in the crime. Well, you think that we're here for that testimony.

You think that we're here for that testimony, Baldwin asked? It's kind of confusing. He says no. So you don't know. And again, Mon says it was determined. It was not his. Did you ask Brad if he gave an inconsistent statement? No.

Well, that would be a good question to ask him, right? He said he remembered that day exactly what he did, and he reviewed text that showed he was driving the van. Well, interesting. He's reviewing his text when he has no idea what you'd be talking about. And Mullins says, yes, interesting. Recross with McLeeland. So again, the state's back up for recross.

He says, well, the gun text said the bullet, cycled through Richard Allen's gun. Correct? Correct. The gun tech did not come back to the same conclusion with Brad Weber's gun. Correct. And now we have jury questions. Which direction does the trail cam face? The trail cam is facing west. It's a little bit south, basically towards Delphi. They continue talking about the area around and then Mullen says the area of vision is restricted around the camera to about 25 or 30 feet. The defense explains that it's actually, it was 100 yards from the girls. Mullen says it's not measure.

It's not measured. So they pull up a map. And the defense says the bodies are not in the field of view of the camera. Mullen says no. My neighbor saw, oh, see, hold on. And then at this point, someone in the gallery, saw McLean point backwards and someone quietly said behind. Defense asks, can you use the logging trail to get access to the creek?

Molinikwins that it would hit the valley. So the next question by the jury, if you saw someone on the trail cam, could you identify what they were wearing? He says that he did. and I and then some this was hard to hear so I'm not even going to try it I don't want to quote anything is it possible another jury question is it possible to see anything on the ground yes on the trail can could you have seen the bodies if video were altered to zoom in no liby's cell phone stopped at two 32 and was found under abbey do you believe that's where they were killed yes are the police force issued

hollow point bullets. Yes. Do we have the trail camp footage and is the timestamp accurate? Yes. How hard is it to be accurate with a vehicle description while only driving by and seeing for a short period of time? His answer for someone with training and expected to be accurate. Judge Goal says, can you expect someone who is not trained to be able to drive by quickly and accurately describe the vehicle. And his answer is depends on the person. So the next

witness is, sorry one second, guys. I just lost my spot. Okay, the next witness is his Toby Leesonby and he is the Carroll County chief deputy under Tony

Liggett, who's now the sheriff wasn't back then. And that's what he answers that his job is. And what was your job prior? Well, he used to be an elected sheriff from 2015 to 2022. Were you a sheriff in February of 2017? I was. What was your involvement?

Well, it was more administrative. In other words, he wasn't boots on the ground. So based upon your knowledge, how many individuals did you think were involved? Is the answer, with this crime? In other words, the defense is asking, Baldwin is doing the questioning if I didn't say that correctly. He says initially, Toby says initially, I was unknown pre Mr. Allen's arrest, but obviously it changed.

So how many did you think after Richard Allen was arrested? Only one person. Do you remember your deposition on August 5th, 2023? Yes. Would it help you refresh by looking at your deposition? Yes. Baldwin hands him a laptop and decides to look. Well, does this help?

Yes. And how many times did you think as of August, how many times did you think then how many, excuse me, how many people did you think committed this crime as of August 5th, 2023? Is that what he's asking? Multiple, at least two? Yeah. And Richard Allen was arrested in October of 2022. Yes. And this was 10 months later, you thought multiple.

Yes. Did anyone else think there's an objection, speculation sustained? Do you know of anyone, at least one person that also thought that there might be more than one person involved? No one that comes to mind, Toby says. Baldwin gives him a deposition to read. Does this help refresh your recollection as to who else believed? Yes. Well, who was that? And then there's an objection, foundational questions are needed by prosecution. All right. Do you know what other officers believed at the time of your deposition?

Well, a lot of what I provided, McLean, McLean raises a voice and cuts them off. Next question. Did you know what other officers believed at the time of your deposition? No. The earlier objection for speculation is overruled, and now the question is re-asked. Liseumby says that Tony Liggett, what he believed.

Other officers at this time believed. He's now the sheriff. This is interesting. So why did you believe there was more than one person involved in the crime after Richard Allen's arrest? Well, based on early conversations in the investigation. But you didn't say that then, right? referring to the deposition, right. In August of 2023, how long have you been involved in the investigation? Over five years. So with all of that knowledge, you still believed,

based on earlier conversations, he explains. So you did not have any other conversations from 2017 to 2023. He said, yes, we talked about more tips. The number of people involved wasn't discussed. Well, why did you think that there was possibly more than one person involved? Well, he said based upon the brutality and information given at the time. And now there's a cross-exam by McLeeland. Question, you were not heavily involved in the investigation, in the investigation, right? He answers, no. Well, is it fair to say you did not know all of the details?

Yes. And that's it. And now there's a redirect back to Baldwin. Were you the sheriff in 2017? Yes. In 2018? Yes. In 2019?

All the way up until 2020. When again, Tony, they became the sheriff. Jury questions. How many murders have you personally investigated? And his answer is none personally. They let the jury go at this time, and they close out for the day with impending motions. Motion one, Jesse James, motion for transport, granted and signed.

Rosie says that he does not need all of the transport motion signed now, but may revisit early next week because the DOC only needs 24 notice for transportation. Back and forth with Richard Allen. Motion two, there's a motion for a remote witness. There was a lot of back and forth on this. The defense says they received new discovery in August that brought new issues with Mr. Weber. They were hoping to resolve with Gote's testimony, but they were unable to. The witness they want remote is special agent, Adam Pol. He is in command of election security

in Texas with the FBI and also has medical issues that prevent him from flying. Rosie talked to the other judge who is familiar with Zoom and is available and can come in to help. He quotes case law that says you may conduct remotely if good cause is shown and the testimony will likely take less than 30 minutes, and he says that he will rebutt Weber's claim that he drove straight home from work. Rosie also said that they've been trying to work with the U.S. Attorney from quite some time and says that Allen's Sixth Amendment rights are at play. Goal asks when the subpoena was sent. Defense said three to four weeks ago, beginning of October, the state objects. The state says Weber was never confronted by the state, and they submitted evidence

he went straight home. McLeodin states the police is solely being called to impeachment and talks about improper impeachment. Judge Gull and Baldwin talk about the different types of impeachment for witnesses. Long story short. Goal says that I have not heard good cause shown and the motion was denied. And now, to do, and Odin is a motion. We were waiting for this.

And odinism, the defense really wants to bring in odinism. For those wondering what that is or new to this case, go check out our full story. The full story of Abby and Libby that I did just before the trial explains the theory that the defense wanted to bring up about odinism or a bit of a cult-type killing. The defense claims that the state opened the door. Baldwin explained that when the state puts in evidence, the sticks on these girls in a very unusual, usual way, especially Abby Williams, they opened the door. The state said that it was in cross

and not and did not open. It was not an open the door event. The defense brings up Elvis Fields' comment about spitting on the girls and calls it in incriminating comment. And then they link Brad, Holder, and Elvis Fields. They mentioned Holder's son dated Abby. Judge Goal says, quote, case law is perfectly clear. There has to be a nexus, end quote. She says there is no nexus, therefore motion denied for third party evidence and another sidebar. And then the day was over. And now we get to today.

We just concluded yesterday and now we're jumping to today. So I will say right here, Richard Allen, Saturday. 11. 2. Thank you everyone for being here. So today was a hefty. Let me pull up today. Here we go. All right. No, that is Fridays. One second, everyone. Forgive me, guys. I'm looking for today's sheet. One second. I had it earlier and I just like lost it. Okay, let me go to my drive. Here we go. Forgive me. Okay. Start to get nervous. Found it. found it. November Saturday, November 2nd, 2024. Here we go. It's everybody ready. Today was a much shorter day, much shorter. Ready for this? Here we go. On Saturday, November 2nd,

2024, Richard Allen enters court wearing black pants with a striped blue and white shirt. And this was the same shirt as Thursday. I mean, he's been cycling, recycling these shirts. I will say it has been interesting. Someone's noted that pointed out that he often wears purple and or blue shirts, I will say, whether or not that's on purpose. Abby and Libby's colors that we, that the town of Delphi remembers them with and their loved ones are like a purple and a teal color blue. There are ribbons outside.

And it is true that he is often either like he has a lavender shirt that he wears a lot and blue shirt. Let's be honest. Buying cannabis shouldn't be complicated, sketchy or low quality. That's why I want to tell you about mood.com. That's M-O-O-O-D.com. Mood ships federally legal cannabis straight to your door. No medical card, no hassle. And here's the kicker. The quality is better than anything you'll find at your local dispensary. Yeah, I said it. Whether you're into edibles, concentrates, flour, or just looking to explore, you'll find it all at mood. And it's not just the variety that makes them stand out. Every product is sourced from small American-owned family farms that care deeply about what they grow. It's cannabis you can trust, delivered discreetly,

and ready to elevate your mood. And because you're a listener, you get 20% off your first order. Just head to mood.com. That's M-O-O-O-D.com to get started. So day before lavender, today, striped blue and a white shirt. This was the same shirt as Thursday. after entering. So this is, this is interesting. Kathy Allen is not here today in the courtroom. And Kathy, I have heard from people in the courtroom and those close to Richard Allen seem that allegedly Kathy wasn't there because she didn't want to see some possible videos this day of Richard Allen. those videos that were brought up in Court Friday were now a possible, you know, exhibit.

And so after entering, Richard Allen looks to where Kathy usually sits. And then he actually makes a heart with his hands towards Kathy Allen's friends who are sitting in her usual spot. And she often has friends with her. He then kept looking back at her friends and smiling. He was even mouthing things to them at one point. A 9.15 judge goal walks in. This is later than usual, as she usually is right on time for a 9 a.m. start.

And the TV is immediately turned to the jury seating area. McCleeland and Rosie are having a discussion, so that means McLeeland, this state prosecution is having a discussion with the defense, Rosie. Court begins by talking about Exhibit XX, which was admitted over the state's objection. It is the thumb drive with the videos of Richard Allen, again during his incarceration at Westville. We learned that the videos of Richard Allen from his time in custody will be played for the jury. Rosie says that they had a conversation in chambers and due to the explicit content.

He is requesting that for his client and for Richard Allen's dignity, these videos will only be played for the jury and silently without sound. The only people who will see these videos are counsel, the judge, and the jury. Richard Allen would even be able to see them from his seat. And the state shares that they are objecting to anything past video one. And Judge Gull says, if I get to the point where I am greeted with the state, I'll have counsel approach for a sidebar. And I just want to point out, and still the jury has not come in.

So it has been decided that for Richard Allen's dignity, that these videos of his being incarcerated will not be played. Now we're learning for the gallery, only for the jury and without sound. I did relate a lot of what we heard that these videos have in them. I don't know what these videos, particular videos, have in them. But we have heard of a lot of things going on in the cell. The gallery did see crime scene photos. I'm comparing some things. We did see crime scene photos and I want to remind everyone. Libby was found nude while there were some very small black squares hiding, you know, her private areas or genitals and chest. We saw the victims of this crime. And so, but.

I guess it's been decided that for Richard Allen's dignity, understandably he's, I guess, understandably the defense does not want the gallery to see these videos. And so they will only be played for the jury. So at 926, the jury comes in and Rosie recalls Max Baker from yesterday. Max Baker again is an employee of Rosie. And so, and Max jumped on the stand to explain how he, again, sort of looked at the surveillance. He was like the harshman for the defense and he looked at these. So we're going to hear from him once again.

Before we jump to it, I'm just going to check out Streamyard. All right. Okay. All right. Let's get to it. Thank you, everyone, for your super chats and for your questions. We will address those later. Let's get to Max Baker.

yesterday Rosie says to him did we receive a list from the state and it had a lot of dates? Yes. And he asks if this helped him with getting the correct videos based on the dates and Max says yes

I was able to make sure all the videos came from April, May, and June and this was interesting because yesterday they talked about July on the record two but today that was excluded. So I don't know what that's about. Did you prepare another

thumb drive? Yes, this morning he prepared. at another thumb drive. And are all videos camcorder videos? Yes. So new master sheet YY2 is admitted into evidence. It was modified then from YY1. And they tell the jury what this list is. And so here's a master list of videos numbered one through 15. It contains the file name. The record date, although for the first two, I could not, first two, we could only see really from those in court that they were taken between April 5th and April 13th. There is also a time.

There is also the time in how long they are. There is a comment on some that says it contains nudity. Okay, so I just want to like really grasp this. Forgive me for checking out this answer from Max one more time. I just want to make sure I understand this. One through 15 videos. They contain file names. So the dates for the first two,

all they know are from April 5th to April 13th between those two dates. So they cannot tell the exact dates. They could only tell they were between April 5th and April 13th. And there's also the time and how long they were. There is a comment on some that say that it contains nudity. There are file numbers in there, and they ask is there a meaning for that?

Yes, they are chronological. I assume they are all from one camcorder. They exhibit DDD movement camcorder videos. It's objected but published. And then exhibit EEEE, the list is objected to and then published. Video one, again, it's sometime. The video one is sometime between April 5th and April 13th, but we don't know. That would be nice to know.

So the jurors, according to those in the gallery to date, were poker-faced. One juror did look to the gallery towards Kathy Allen's usual spot twice. Of course, she wasn't there. Video two, the second video was from April 5th through 13th. Again, we don't know the exact date. It's two minutes long. A juror who looks like she may be in her middle. middle-aged is taking notes as well as two male jurors.

Video three is approximately five minutes long. There is an older woman who looks disgusted according to one person in the gallery, a juror. Richard Allen at this time while the video is being showed is messing with his glasses and this same older female juror in the back puts her hand on her face and seems maybe concerned. That's their interpretation of that. Video 4, April 14, 2023, the jurors seem uncomfortable and some are touching their faces. Video number five, it's April 17th, 2020.

It's two minutes and 57 seconds in length. Multiple jurors are taking notes during video five. Video six, April 17th, 2020. This was taken at 1159 a.m., and it's two minutes and 48 seconds. Five out of six jurors in front are taking notes. Richard Allen sips coffee and he looks back at the gallery and jurors breathing heavily. I was also told that Richard Allen looked back at the gallery more often today. Video seven.

There's a 26 minute video. So again, the jurors are seeing these videos. The gallery is not seeing these videos. They are watching Richard Allen. they are watching the jurors, and they are sitting there. So this 26-minute video, almost all the jurors are writing at the same time. Excuse me. Almost all the jurors are writing at the same time.

At one point, Aje, that's the female defense attorney, is covering her mouth and then crosses her arms and looks grossed out. Throughout the video, they advance ahead in 30-second segments to move. it faster and show what the defense wants to be seen. Sometimes the clips from this video shown are only a few seconds long. So fast forwarding it, showing a few seconds, and moving on. There are four different advancements during this video. At what point, one of the male jurors who looks to be middle-aged or perhaps a bit older sets his notepad down, leans forward, and covers his mouth.

Then he moves to resting his face on his hand, and then he later starts to take notes again. Video 8, April 18th, 2023. It's at 2-something p.m. in the afternoon. It's 12 minutes and 8 seconds in length. Ogey touches her face and covers her mouth again, but this time with her fingers. the older female juror towards the back is covering her face.

There's one woman that keeps rubbing her face between her eyes. The jury seems to be taking deep breaths and a few seem to be squirming and uncomfortable. The defense advances the video for different times. An older female jury in the back looks completely shocked. Video not. April 21st, 2023, 941 a.m. 11 minutes, 17 seconds in length. The front male juror's hand goes straight to his mouth. Kathy's two friends at this moment leave, and they advance the video twice. Video 10, April 28, 2023, at 8.56 p.m. and 52 minutes and 26 seconds. The front juror by the door covers mouth. And excuse me, the front juror covers the mouth and shakes head.

They advanced the video once during this time. So kind of, again, a fast forward to show whatever they want to show. Now, many people in the gallery are asleep at this time. We're fighting to stay awake. Again, you have to realize there is no sound on these videos. And the, so the jurors are watching these videos in silence. and the gallery again is not seeing these videos. So it's just ongoing silence.

The defense advances a video 19 more times. So many times. Many of the clips that they advance to are only a few seconds long. So they are only showing bits and pieces of each of the video that's, each of the videos that have been omitted as exhibits. I will say that's interesting. I'll ask somebody, why, well, let's just keep moving on. Let's just keep going without questions here.

Morning break. There was a morning break and they announced a 15 minute break will be followed by a witness. And the witness is none other than Doug Carter. So Doug Carter, to remind those of you that don't know, it was a main investigator or a lead investigator in this case, and he is well known for saying that they believe that in 2019, two years after the murders of Abby and Libby, he said in a press conference, we believe that the killer is hiding in plain sight. And he has been vocal of this case.

And anyway, let's hear finally from Doug Carter. I was actually surprised that Doug Carter was not ever a witness. for the prosecution or the state, and now he is going to be a witness for the defense. So they ask, what is your job? I am the superintendent for Indiana State Police, Defense. What was your involvement in the case? Subordinate. What other agencies were involved? Dozens. Could you please name a few? State police, FBI, U.S. Marshals. He listed a bunch more, but he did. talk quite quietly. Quite quietly. He spoke quietly. Was there a time the FBI was assisting the

unified command? Yes. Was there a time they were no longer involved? Yes. What time frame was that? Year? Probably 2021. They have him refresh his memory with the deposition, but then they say it's actually not a deposition. What time frame was that? August, he says 2021. And that's when they were no longer involved? Yes. Did you ask them to do anything after they left the scene? Sidebar. Was that your decision for the FBI to leave the investigation?

Yes. And did you ask them to return all their documents? Yes. There is no cross and there are no jury questions. So in other words, they had him explaining that, he allowed the FBI to leave the investigation. Investigation. And then Max, good old Max comes on.

Surveillance Max. He's got a really unique job as a young guy. He comes back on the stand so that we can finish the videos. The state is still under objection of the videos. And what number video are we on? They ask him, number 11. Yes, sir. number 11. So video 11 is May 13th, 20, 23, 12, 45 p.m. And almost all the jurors are writing notes throughout.

Video 12, May 20th, 2020, 23, 314 p.m. It's 55 seconds in length and really not much to see there. The jury's pretty poker. jurors pretty poker faced. Video 13, May 26, 2023, 12 p.m. 4 minutes and some seconds long. Leje has her arm around Richard for a brief moment. So that's interesting. It's usually always Baldwin with his arm around

Richard, but we've got the female defense attorney during this day. I think that's an interesting choice. The female defense attorney on this day has her arm around Richard Allen for a brief moment while they're playing some really uncomfortable videos of him to the jury.

and the video is playing and while the video is playing she talks to him. The jury shows no reaction. Baldwin looks concerned, looks down and then looks back up. Richard Allen is shaking his head up and down and kind of looks like he is rocking or swaying a bit. Video 14, May 30, 23 at 7.09 a.m. The jury shows no reaction at first. Baldwin has his arm around Richard Allen. Jurors are taking a lot of notes. Video 15, June 20, 20, 23, 10.52 a.m. Over 30 minutes long. Baldwin still has his arm around Richard Allen. For a while, Richard Allen is looking towards the left and then he turns to the right and looks right at the jury for a bit. Before looking to the left again, and eventually looking down at his desk. They advanced this video twice,

and there is not much reaction at this point. They advance once more, and it's hard to tell how the jurors are really feeling. The male juror close, the male juror, a male juror covers his mouth and shakes his head. They advance the video five times. There is no juror reaction for a while, and then a male juror starts looking around the gallery,

and they advance the video four more times. times to show this different parts of the video and Baldwin's arm is now around Richard Allen and is around it for a while. Back to Max. Max, good old Max. I just, you know, Rosie gave Max an interesting job. So is it fair to say we created a similar thumb drive and spreadsheet in regard to the in-cell videos? Yes, Max. Yes, Max. says. The defense asks, and on the in-cell video, you can see an actual date in time. Yes. And then the court concludes for the Saturday. The judge mentions activities for the jurors

and says that they will see their families tomorrow. Again, these jurors are sequestered and they are not supposed to be looking at anything when it comes to this case and they only are allowed to see their families one day and that is Sunday and that is tomorrow. and they are not supposed to talk to their families about the case. Interesting day, right? It is interesting to hear, I will say, that because there was silence and the gallery couldn't see or hear anything and gave those note-taking in there some opportunity to look at the jurors, and I found the jurors' questions really interesting yesterday.

Will the video evidence ever be released to the public? That's a great question. I doubt it. It sounds like it's pretty private things with nudity. But who knows, worst things have been seen and shared with the public before in cases. All right. Let's see what you guys are saying. Thank you, everybody, for your kindness.

Oh, let's see. Let me start back up here. Well, actually, let's start with, we'll go back. Thank you so much, Sharebear. I appreciate it. Yes, great job to the moderators. I just like to speak to what's happening. Thank you so much, Delulu.

Penny, thank you. I appreciate it. Wah bash. Did I say it right? I've been practicing, and somehow I always get it wrong. So, wabash. think my problem is, is that I practice it and then I get nervous. And so then I just mispronounce it. Wabash. Thank you. Dutie Ron. Lauren, I'm so glad you're back home with your family.

Thank you for sharing the inside of the courtroom perspective for Abby, Libby, and their families. Dutie Ron, that means so much. Thank you for helping us understand so much. Thank you for being in chat and for your kindness. I always say, guys, we did a week ago now, I believe it was. Sunday. And so almost a week ago, an episode on Duty Ron's channel where I was able to ask a lot of questions when it came to the firearm evidence or the toolmark bullet analysis. And I really appreciated the experts on your channel and the opportunity I had to ask them questions. I said it before and I'll say it again. I recommend that video. Thank you for bringing us the courtroom with you, Lauren. You have done an incredible job. Thank you. And thank you to everyone helping while I am away. Thank you. My note takers know who you are. I really appreciate it.

Olivia, it's so good to see so many new members. Oh my gosh, Sue, thank you. Coffee and cookie on me. I appreciate it. You know, I need those cookies. Like, I just need the quick energy, and I've been enjoying my sugar. So thank you.

Add caffeine. Thank you so much, J-Lo. Great name. Thank you, Blumen Rose. Thank you. Wendy. Hello to Ashley Wilson's mother. I'd love to know what she thinks. Delphay is in about an hour north to me. I've watched the investigation since this tragic February day. You're doing something so important. Thank you. Thank you so much. Oh my gosh. Yes. Thank you to the moderators in chat.

I couldn't do this without them. True Crime Fix. Fiona. Thank you so much. Thank you, Tier Talk, for the donation. Thank you. So good to see new members. Cherry, thank you. Or Cherry, if it's, I think it's Sherry. Thank you for all of those gifting hidden true crime memberships. I mean, so much. I did do a members-only video the other day. I made a private right after because it did not go the way I planned. And then persuasion from moderators made it members only again. So thank you, everyone. I just sort of shared there why I chose to start, why I chose to cover this trial and decide to go and why I feel now that I've got to see it through. And my family supports and understands. And I will do some other members-only videos as well for all of our new members and those

gifting memberships. Thank you. And yes, Dr. John and I are going to record that Patreon episode tonight as well. Thank you to everybody for our new Patreon members. Thank you, Sarah. Wicked West. Possibly. I'll be honest. The reason John and I do Patreon episodes for a number reason, A, to thank our Patreon supporters, of course, but also we have learned that it's easy, it's easier and it feels more comfortable and safer for us to explore a topic that may be high conflict if it was fully public and we feel safer and we do it with our phones and it's just more casual. And then sometimes if we feel good about it, we do share it with the public. We did that, for example, well, and many of you don't know this.

So we, for those of you that followed the Madeline Soto case, we did an interview with Madeline Soto. excuse me, we did an interview with Stefan Stern's parents. And then we wanted to talk about the interview together privately and intimately and share what we thought and we made it for Patreon only. Well, after a request from many of our patrons, we did decide to share that publicly on our podcast, not our YouTube, but our podcasts. We often have some different episodes or additional episodes on our podcast. We have some different things on our YouTube.

So we also recommend you subscribing to our podcast because not everything is the same. And so my point being, if there ever is a Patreon episode that we hesitantly think, you know what, maybe this is safe or okay for the public and we decide to release it later. We'll oftentimes do that on our podcast because there's no visual that goes with it. Thank you, Shali. That was a long, drawn out explanation. But hopefully people now understand a little bit more. Thank you, Ashley. And so yeah, so for those that are not on our Patreon and are curious about what we had to say about that interview, you can find that on our podcast, not YouTube, but our podcast.

Has there been testimony about how crowded the trail was? Is it busy or is it just Richard Allen and those few female witnesses? You know, I think that that's what there was a day with all of the witnesses where they tried to explain how busy it was. It seemed like there were some people there. It was a warm day. What was interesting is we did not hear about any males on the trail at all until the defense's witnesses the past few days. And that's the first time we've ever heard of. males on the trail or men on the trail. I am looking comfy. It's been a hard couple of weeks, guys, and I'm home for a couple days. And, uh, yeah, so I am taking it easy. How do you become a Patreon member? So you head to patreon.com slash hidden true crime. And it's a place where people can support us monthly.

We have, I think, over 60 bonus episodes there. and we do that as a thank you. They're very casual. John and I will start talking on our phones. My husband and I, and he's a criminal psychologist, and we'll share some thoughts we're having and casual conversations that are not edited. And again, yes, if we ever do choose to make those public

because it feels safe enough, it's usually on our podcast only. Oh, absolutely. He will do a video here on YouTube with his opinions. Here's the thing. We take what we do seriously because he is an expert. And because Dr. John is an expert and he is a licensed psychologist, he does not feel comfortable talking directly about this case until he listens to everything that I've been listening to. Well, what's the problem?

I'm there. He's here holding down the fort at home. So being the journalist, I'm there taking notes, doing what I can, relaying the information. Later on, we are going to cover a lot in detail. And John even has like a six series podcast season. And we absolutely will be going live on YouTube when he feels ready and when life slows down a little bit. Podcasts that I have, Hidden True Crime podcasts are on Spotify. And thank you as well for those that,

give us a great podcast review. That also means a lot. Thank you. Trouble Maker Baker for sharing Richard Allen's Google searches per the Carroll County comment. And speaking of my family and telling John, I want to go get back to them before I leave tomorrow. So I'm going to take off. I'm going to let John know that you guys are all wanting him and his perspective.

Trust me. I do too. There's so much. There is so much And I will be seeing all of you again Back in Delphine Until then we'll see you Bye bye

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