Hidden True Crime - DELPHI: Richard Allen Trial - Saturday 10/26 Day 8 Detective Testifies About Interrogation

Episode Date: October 29, 2024

Richard Allen Trial Witness Testimony Saturday 10/26 About Hidden True Crime: Lauren Matthias, a former television reporter, and her husband Dr. John Matthias, a criminal psychologist, started Hidden True Crime in 2020 with their Season, 'Beyond the Veil,' a psychological deep dive into the doomsday murders and prophet. What started as a simple conversation at their dinner table became a captivating podcast. Join the dynamic duo of Dr. John Matthias, a forensic psychologist, and Lauren Matthias, an investigative journalist, as they delve into the psychological facets of unthinkable crimes every week. Their unique perspectives and in-depth analysis offer a fresh take on true crime storytelling. Thank you for your support through sponsorships, subscribing, listening, and becoming a Patreon member at Patreon.com/HiddenTrueCrime Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Quince uses premium materials like European linen, organic cotton, but they cut out the middleman. So everything is priced way lower than you'd expect. Refresh. your every day with luxury you can actually use. Head to quince.com slash hidden true crime for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quince, quince, q-u-in-c-com slash hidden true crime for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash hidden true crime. I'm continuing to report from Delphi, Indiana, spending long nights in line and sitting in court each day to bring you detailed reports from the Richard Allen trial. Alan is charged with murdering best friends, 13-year-old Abigail Williams, and 14-year-old Liberty German in February of 2017. And the judge

has actually decided to not only not televise this trial, but to also not even share audio. Thus, I am here to be the eyes and ears of the courtroom. These episodes are nightly live streams that I record on YouTube shortly after court ends each day. And if you notice these episodes are a bit more choppy than our other episodes, please understand why. We are working around the clock to bring you the very latest on the trial with a quick turnaround. And if you would like to catch the full unedited live stream, you can always head over to Hidden True Crime on YouTube. Hello, hello. Okay. So let's get to it. I have a few notebooks here. Saturday, October, 26th. I want to start with just setting the stage today. So on Saturdays, it's a half day. And I just want to

share how everything went in court. So first off, a big thank you to those that helped me get a reserved seat in the defense section this morning. I was falling asleep in court yesterday. people have realized that I've been sleeping outside the courtroom. I just got a call on my phone. That was not a pause, but I did just put my phone on Do Not Disturb. So I'm still here, right? I'm still here, the things I don't do before I go live. All right.

So had a reserve seat in the defense today. There were a couple people that weren't there. And so I was given a seat. And I was very grateful for that. It was someone approached Kathy Allen about it and she said that's just fine. If there's going to be an extra seat, you have a reserved seat. So I was able to sleep in because I usually don't fall asleep in front of the courthouse until like after midnight. And then I wake up at five to go and shower.

It's just been little sleep for a long time. And yeah. So today already started like a good day. I was well rested. I got there later than typical. And when I arrived, yes, let's clarify, there is court six days a week when it comes to this trial. Judge Gull wants to get through this. The jurors are sequestered, meaning they're staying in hotel rooms away from their family.

They're only allowed to have family visit on Sundays. So for good reason, Judge Gull is saying, let's do this. And so Saturday is a court day, but it's a half a day. And so six days of court, half day. And honestly, if I'm going to be really honest, I was going to go home this evening because, again, I've mentioned that I need to get home for Halloween for my little boy. But both my husband and I decided it's just I need to be out here as long as I can. So I'm now going to not go home until Wednesday evening and do everything I can. There will be a couple of days that I'm not here, but I already

have somebody lined up to take really good notes who I really trust. So I'll still. I'll still be reporting on what we're seeing in there. First thing to note was Richard Allen's mother had a fall outside the courtroom this morning and it was so bad and concerning about, I think, a possible concussion. Don't quote me on that.

That she actually went to the hospital and she did not attend today for the first time. So, you know, keep her in your thoughts. Let's hope she's okay. And the other thing that happened is somebody was in court today for the first time, somebody that has been listening to my live streams every day, and this person decided to attend today for the first time. And so I asked this person, because I was curious, what surprised you? Being that I am reporting on this every day, what surprised you about being in the courtroom today? Like, what can I help clarify better or explain better? And she stated that she was surprised at how not divisive the courtroom was.

In other words, there were no, even though prosecution sitting on one side, defense is sitting on another, there's no like, there's no like extreme sides. Everybody gets along. Everybody's cordial. Everybody's respectful. She had this idea in her mind that perhaps it would be a bit more divisive. So I thought that was interesting to hear from her. And she gave an example, and I want to share too, because something this morning really touched me, Libby's grandmother, Becky Patty, as I was sitting on that defense side, because I had this reserve. seat. She came over to me today and thanked me for my coverage that she had seen me in court and she was fed my videos in YouTube and so she watched some of them and she thanked me and what

she thanked me for was bringing the facts. She said, we just need to be factual and share what's going on in a factual way. And she kept saying facts and I said, I completely agree with that. And thank you so much. That's why I'm here. I just want to relay without audio and without video, I just want to relay everything I can catch from my perspective that's going on in the courtroom. And I thanked her for that. And Libby's grandpa also introduced himself and said that he had been hearing good things about me. And my point is, she came over, well, I'm actually sitting close to Kathy Allen. And she came over and she thanked me. And so just to hear that perspective from this person in court, that had not been here, but been listening to my live streams,

she wanted to say that she was just surprised by that, that there was this clarity when she got into the courtroom, that she realized that everyone was just, you know, nobody was fighting. There wasn't this intense connection or, sorry, contention or discord and division of sides. So I thought that was interesting. And I want to share that in addition, because I wasn't in line this morning, I heard this from

somebody else that was in line that Becky Patty brought homemade banana bread to people standing in line early this morning while they stood in line. Becky Paddy again doesn't have to get here early. She, of course, has reserved seat every day being Libby's grandmother, yet she came early enough to give everyone homemade bread and she said that the banana bread was made by Derek German, who is Libby's father. So just a few things that are going on in the courtroom. One second. Today we only had one witness, but it wasn't as long, of course, as yesterday. We only had one witness because court really only went for a couple of hours. I mean, it went from 9 a.m. until about 11.30, so two and a half hours and there was also a morning break and we finished before lunch.

So we had one witness and it was Lieutenant Jerry Holman who has already been on the stand before. So this was not his first time on the stand and I suspect that he's actually going to be on the stand another time and another day. He's a big investigator in this case and And yeah. So, oh, the other thing that the person in court for the first time today, too, said is that is that she was surprised also just how quiet it was how hard it was to hear. Which is interesting because I repeatedly, I repeatedly say it's hard to hear and even she was surprised at just how hard it was to hear. We're all doing our best in there. And a lot of us in there, a lot of the reporters and the YouTube.

readers. We exchange notes willingly because we're all just trying to help each other out when we miss something. So Baldwin was, by the way, in a black suit, white shirt, striped tie. Rosie was in a purple shirt. Richard Allen was there in a plaid, light pastel shirt. That's sort of his typical go-to. He just kind of swaps over a few plaid or checked pastel, like light, soft pastel shirts. He's usually in khakis or brown pants and a belt. The judge tells the jury to settle in, helps they had a pleasant evening. As always, Judge Gull starts by asking the jury if they've had access to phones or emails, if they've read about the case, if they've been researching the case,

if they've been on their phones or their computers, if they've been talking to people about the case, and they always answered, no, they haven't, yes, they're behaving. And so that sort of starts every morning. and the jurors are flipping through their notes. And again, we have Lieutenant Jerry Holman from the Indiana State Police come up. He's in a black suit as well, a tan shirt and a brown tie. And they begin, and the prosecution, it was McClellan today speaking. And they begin that they're saying that there was, they begin by explaining

an interview with Richard Allen on October 26th, 2022. So this is not the October 13th interview. This would be like two weeks later, about, about give or take a few days, two weeks later. So there's a new interview now that we're hearing about. And this is the first time the courtroom's hearing about this new interview. Not surprised there's a new interview, but we haven't addressed this later October 2020 interview yet. And so, okay, so as the prosecution begins to question Lieutenant Holman about this interview, they say at first we want to point out a point of clarification

before we begin, and that is the fact that at this moment, Jerry Holman, Lieutenant Jerry Holman, who was in this interview room in Indianapolis with Richard Allen, that he didn't really understand the error rates of the bullet and the gun connection, the entire yesterday in court, Melissa Oberg, that witness. And so he admits that he misinterpreted what she was saying. and it was actually kind of interesting. Jerry Holman said that he believed that the results of the gun and the bullet at this time of this interview with Richard Allen, that he believed that the error rate, that it was as certain as a paternity test,

and that the error rate was less than 2%, or he had interpreted it that way, that after Melissa Oberg tested the bullet he thought that she said the gun was an absolute

no question for sure the six-hour gun and that was training on and then he also shares

that he had training on interviewing a suspect he had basic training so he had interviewed

several suspects before he's had training and interviewing suspects and so now they're

going to clarify some of that training they're really setting the stage for this interview because obviously it was recorded. Obviously there's a transcript of this of this interview. Thus, I suspect that the prosecution is really trying to dot their eyes and cross the T's. So they explained that throughout this interview,

Lieutenant Holman talks with just an absolute certainty about the gun and bullet match, Richard Allen's gun, Richard Allen's gun matching the bullet found at the crime scene. And then in addition, he again says, okay, so you have a lot of knowledge about interviewing suspects. So what are some of the techniques that you use to interview suspects? And he says that you present evidence to the suspect, that you can lie and over-exaggerate. And by the way, that's interesting. when people say police don't have to tell you the truth, they don't. If you're in an interview with them, they can lie to you. And Lieutenant Holman is saying as much that you can over exaggerate

and you can attempt to read the suspect's body language as well. So on October 26th, 2022, he recorded this interview with Richard Allen and the transcript of this interview is 80 pages. So clearly this was a long interview. And so with this 80-page transcript, he says, have you reviewed it? McClellan says, have you reviewed this transcript? And yes, he has reviewed this transcript. And then there's a question by McClellan, have you memorized this transcript? No, I haven't memorized it.

It's 80 pages. So you won't be able then to answer exactly what you said. Is that correct? Yes, that is correct. I will not be able to answer exactly what I said. And then, and then again, on October 26th, 2022 interview, you did have Melissa Oberg's information. This is important because the October 13th interview with Richard Allen, they did not have Melissa Oberg's information. Remember, Melissa Oberg didn't even receive the gun until after the search of the house on October 14th, the day after the first interview. So this is what really changes this interview and what's different about this interview than the one two weeks ago.

And I think that's why they're really emphasizing Lieutenant Holman's knowledge of the gun match. So this interview happens after. And so how did this interview even come? Because this is an Indianapolis, which is an hour away. So Lieutenant Holman explains that Steve Mullen got Richard Allen to come for this interview. And he came with his wife, Kathy Allen. to Lafayette, excuse me, it was not Indianapolis. It was Lafayette, which is much closer.

That's like 20 minutes away, I believe. So forgive me for that. But it was the Lafayette, Indiana State Police Office. And he came to one of their interview rooms. And so what was your plan? McClellan asks, was your plan to arrest Richard Allen? And he said it was not to arrest Richard Allen. We just wanted to ask him about the cartridge at the crime scene because we had new information about it.

And he explained that he started the interview with reminding Richard Allen of his Miranda rights. He didn't like state them because this wasn't a plan to arrest him, but they reminded him of his Miranda rights. And they spoke about firearms, firearms, and And Lieutenant Holman spoke about his time in the Marines. And when asked why he did that, he said, I was just trying to build rapport with Richard Allen. I had been in the military. You know, I had been in the Marines and Richard Allen had been in the military too.

He's just trying to build rapport saying, yeah, I was, you know, same, same. Richard Allen explained that he had not shot his gun often. It had been a while. And that's when Lieutenant Holman showed. Richard Allen the results of the gun match and he asked him about the round that was found at the crime scene matching Richard Allen's gun. And then Lieutenant Holman asked Richard Allen if anyone had ever borrowed Richard Allen's car. He said no. He asked about his clothing. The way Lieutenant Holman explained it is I said, look, sometimes I let people borrow my car for a week and

Sometimes I let people borrow my clothes and then they don't return them for two weeks. Sometimes they'll allow people to borrow my books. And so he's saying, have you ever let anyone borrow your car? And Richard Allen says, no, I have never let anyone borrow my car. About your clothing, like your car jacket that you were wearing and the clothes you're wearing, have you ever let anyone borrow your clothes? Richard Allen says, no, no one has ever borrowed my clothes. I don't lend my...

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And then he asked, what about your gun? Have you ever let anyone borrow your gun? No, no one has ever borrowed my gun before. So they clarified that. And Richard Allen also explained, though, that the day he went to the trail, he admitted again about going to the trail. He was on the Monon High Bridge Trail and he was admitted to that and said, though, that he did not have his firearm that day. He just simply said, I do not have my firearm. told him and so that's when Lieutenant Holman said

well the gun we got with the search warrant at your house last week matched the round at the crime scene and Richard Allen denied that against it I didn't even take a gun with me

that day that I walked on the trail I didn't have a gun and then Lieutenant Holman says that he continued to talk about the findings with Richard Allen and then a comment

and then brought up the comment that Richard Allen had made to Lieutenant Holman during the search warrant. So if you remember, allegedly, Richard Allen stated it wasn't recorded, but Richard Allen stated to Lieutenant Holman in a previous testimony during the search when Lieutenant Holman said to Richard Allen, hey, on October 13th, by the way, I can take you to your wife. are you concerned like she's not detained Richard Allen stated nah don't worry about it doesn't it does quote it doesn't matter

it's over and allegedly Richard Allen stated that twice that day on October 13th so that's again who Lieutenant Holman is he was at the search and he is the one who didn't record it but heard Richard Allen

say that to him during the search and so so Lieutenant Holman decided to asked Richard Allen at this point, two weeks later, about that comment. So he asked about that comment and Richard Allen's response was, yeah, what I meant was the damage had been done. They'd already interviewed my neighbors. They'd already interviewed my coworkers and his life was over. Thus, everyone believed that he was the killer. His life was over. Didn't matter. I thought that was an interesting response and that was Richard Allen's explanation of it.

Lieutenant, Lieutenant Holman asked if he needed a smoke break or water. He explains that he was just trying to be polite. He knows that Richard Allen is a smoker and just wanted to ask him if he ever needed water. And Lieutenant Holman told him that they had witnesses that said it was Richard Allen on the video of bridge guy. And then Lieutenant Holman explains, this was a lie. I lied. It's an approved technique to get people to slip up. So in other words, nobody had actually said, oh yeah, Richard Allen is bridge guy. But he said he lied and that is an approved technique and said to Richard Allen during the

interview, witnesses had said that he was on the video. That was Richard Allen on the video. He told him and then Holman told him again that we learned that the bullet came from your gun. The bullet found on the crime scene came from your gun. Multiple times he was asked, multiple times Richard Allen was asked if he had committed the crimes. And there were 20 to 25 five times he flat out denied the crime throughout this interview and continued to deny the crime. He denied also having the gun that day and and Holman said that yet despite this, they kept confronting him about his bullet being out there because it matched the gun they took from his house. And yet Richard Allen stayed firm. He didn't have a gun out there and he denied committee.

the crime. Richard Allen expressed that he had been dealing with mental health issues. This is really important to me for those that are new to my channel. My co-host, who's not with me here in Delphi, is my husband, and he is a criminal psychologist and has been assessing criminals for 30 years. And so I'm going to bring this to Dr. John. But Richard Allen expressed mental health issues. He expressed dealing with some pretty serious.

severe depression and anxiety that he suffered from. And as the interview continued, according to Lieutenant Holman, Richard Allen's demeanor changed. He became agitated. He again asked if he had ever had a gun out there ever on the trail. So that was a question that was asked. Did you ever have a gun at any time? And Richard Allen said no. And he also claimed that he had.

had never even been to that property where the crime scene was, where Libby and Abby's bodies were found. He claimed to have never even been on that property. So he had never brought his gun out there a previous time and he never had been on that property before. And at one point, Richard Allen said, quote, I'm not going to tell you something I didn't do. I don't care what you do to me. I'm not going to ever confess to something I didn't do, end quote. So I'm going to repeat that. And by the way, there's one part, this is in quotes, and I checked it with some fellow neighbors who also put down the exact quote,

and there was one part where we, it was almost exact, but there was one phrase that may not have been a quote, but this is how solid this quote is. I'll tell you where we're certain, and I'll tell you the one part where it might be different. friend. Richard Allen allegedly said during this October 26th, 2022 interview, quote, I'm not going to tell you something I didn't do. I don't care what you, here's the chains.

I wrote what you say. My neighbor in court wrote what you do to me. So I have written, I don't care what you say. I'm not certain. That was right. My neighbor caught. I don't care what you do to me. So I don't care what you do to me. I'm not going to ever confess to something I didn't do, end quote. Richard Allen said he did not know Abby and Libby and he denied ever knowing them. He became more agitated and he indicated he was pissed off. And I'm quoting, I'm going to give you verbatim because this is what was said in court. He became more agitated. He indicated he was pissed off. And then he said he didn't fucking do it. end quote. The lieutenant raised his voice and cursed back. He was trying to match his language. It was a tactic

that he learned when interviewing suspects. You match their tone. You match their language. Then it was asked of him, did he ever, did Richard Allen ever give an explanation at how his bullet was found at the crime scene and cycled through his gun? And that was a question asked by the prosecution. We're still in the prosecution. McClellan stated that. Did he ever give an explanation at how his bullet was found at the crime scene

and cycled through his gun and then there was an objection by the defense. McClellan fought that and said, Judge, that was what the expert stated, which side note I agree because I have that exact quote down and it was the most important quote

of yesterday. That's what she said, she said that with, she said that the bullet cycled through Richard Allen's gun. So McClellan, McClellan says, Judge, that was what the experts stated. Rosie then requests a sidebar.

They come back from that sidebar, and McClellan has moved on and states, as you're interviewing Richard Allen, you're confronting him many times, saying that your round was found at the crime scene. Richard Allen continued to say that there was no way that bullet cycled through my gun. I don't know how it got there. And then McClellan asks, did you ask if he was on the trail that day? And Lieutenant Holman says, yes, I did ask,

and he said he was and that he had already told me that. I asked about his clothes that day. And he, again, reiterated that he was wearing a Carhart jacket, you know, similar to what, you know, The Carhart jacket found at Richard Allen's house that he claims he was wearing is certainly similar looking to what bridge guy is wearing. I mean, that's true. I saw the jacket that was seized from Richard Allen's house. And it certainly looks like it could be the jacket or similar to the jacket that Bridge Guy is wearing.

Then they explained that at this moment in the interview, Kathy Allen had been sitting outside of the interview, Richard Allen's wife. but at this moment Kathy came in. And Lieutenant Holman left for a bit. And Richard Allen states, all you need to do is ask for a lawyer and they'll let her go. Richard Allen stated that. And or let you go.

And Lieutenant Holman observed that conversation with Kathy and Richard Allen where he told Kathy, all I have to do is ask for an attorney and they'll let me go. During this moment, Kathy Allen is suddenly, in court,

Kathy Allen is suddenly subtly sort of shaking her head. I don't know what that means if she's disagreeing with that or what, but she's kind of just like going like this in court while they say that this happened with Kathy and Richard Allen. Then he, then Richard Allen says something interesting.

Richard Allen, allegedly says in this interview, according to Lieutenant Holman's testimony, that Richard Allen would normally carry his gun with one ammo in the chamber. So that was interesting. Richard Allen states that normally he would carry a gun with one ammo in the chamber. Again, Lieutenant Holman reiterates they had no plans to arrest Richard Allen during this interview. He gave no indication of being the murder or admitting to, or admitting to, I don't know what I had, admitting to a people, or admitting to the murder. Lieutenant Holman says that people can be deceptive and people have lied to him in interviews

before. And so then it was asked of Lieutenant Holman, which part of your training has helped you pick up on untruthed cues? Like the untruth. When people are lying to you, what part of your training has made it so you can pick up when people might possibly be lying? And did you pick up on any cues that Richard Allen was being untruthful? Then there's an objection by the defense and they say, we need to set some foundation because

they did not believe that that Lieutenant Holman could speak on this type, that he wasn't an expert on body language or being able to tell whether or not someone was being untruthful and there was some arguing back and forth and then they set more of a foundation and Baldwin said, okay, well, help us understand how you know about this. Help us understand body language. Holman is grilled on his training and Holman during this time explains that he watches body language. He's been trained in body language. Someone taught me, but I can't remember who. Thank you, everyone, for your kindness.

Truly, thank you, thank you, thank you. I'm seeing the chats. I just am trying to stay focused, but thank you for all your support. Holman is then grilled on his training by Baldwin, wondering how he can suspect someone who is lying, and the defense argues he's not qualified to be asked this again. Holman claims, though, they get through this.

They set enough foundation that they believe he can answer to this. He's in the interview. Lieutenant Holman is, and he's assessing whether or not Richard Allen is maybe lying, and he's using training in his body language training. And so Holman claims that some of the things he noted about Richard Allen was that he touched his face a lot. And he also suggested and learned that if someone is looking at the floor or not making eye contact, they could perhaps not be telling the truth.

As a side note, I do have to admit that I've been sitting in court every day, observing Richard Allen, and I've even told all of you as much, he does touch his face a lot, I have to say. But during this interview, they're noticing that he touches his face a lot. I mean, maybe he does touch his face when he has anxiety or when he's nervous. Who knows? but Holman then said to Richard Allen, look, I don't think you're a bad person, dot, dot, dot. And Richard Allen answered, what type of good person kills two girls?

Take that for what it is. I don't really know what they meant by that. I took it two ways. In some ways, you could look at that as a damning statement by Richard Allen. In other words, if Holman's saying, look, I don't think you're a bad person, and you could look at that as Richard Allen, like, what type of good person kills two girls as in, like, being ashamed of himself. But another way you can look at that is Holman saying, look, I don't think you're a bad person.

And Richard Allen, realizing that Holman thinks that he killed two girls, so he could also be saying, like, look, I don't believe you. You think I'm a bad person. What good person kills two girls? So, but they brought this up, okay? I'll let you guys decide. There are two ways that could go. I want to see the video of this interview.

That's what I need. At some point, Lieutenant Holman explains things got heated. And I told him that I thought he did it. And he said, well, then take all of your evidence and just arrest me, end quote. That's when Lieutenant Holman went out and discussed. with other law enforcement and we did decide to detain him for the murder of Abby and Libby. That's interesting to me. So in other words, the things that led up to that decision were Holman said to him, look,

I don't think you're a bad person. And he responded, well, what type of good person kills two girls? And then at some point things really got heated. And I told him I thought he did it. And he said, well, take all your evidence and just arrest me. And at that point, he walked out, discussed with other law enforcement. that we're probably watching from another room. And he decided to detain him for the murder of Abby and Libby.

And that was the end of the prosecution's questioning. And now we have cross-exam with Baldwin. Baldwin gets up. I mean, I thought this was a good start with Baldwin. Baldwin gets up. And the first thing he says to Lieutenant Holman is, I notice that you look down a lot. Is that a sign of deception?

And Holman's response was, it can be a sign of deception when people look down a lot. Baldwin then says, I remember taking that deposition back on August 10th, 2023 and May 3rd, 2024. The defense always brings up the depositions that were taken under oath of all the witnesses. And Holman says, I'll take your word for it that you remember, essentially remembering the

deposition and the dates. And Baldwin then says, the interview recorded, the interview with Richard Allen this day was recorded, correct? Yes, correct. But it doesn't show you walking into the interview and reading Richard Allen, his Miranda rights. So this recorded interview Baldwin is saying somehow just started with you sitting down with him. It doesn't show you walking into the interview room. And Holman states there was a delay in the recording. And so Holman's claim for that not showing him walking in is that there's a delay in the recording.

That's why they missed that. And Baldwin says, well, this is just one of many missing videos in this case. Then Holman states, I don't know about any missing videos. And Baldwin says it's really like, I think that he said February of 2017 and an April 28th video. I have to check those dates. And there was no year that he said on the second missing. video. And then Holman states, I don't know about any missing videos. And then Baldwin, oh, and then Holman says, look, we've just simply had, oh, after, okay, here it is. And after Baldwin says,

no, these are the missing video dates. Boom and boom. Holman replies, we have had a lot of technical difficulties in this case. Yes, they have. Baldwin then says, okay, well, we'll just have to take your word on that then? Baldwin then requests the recorded videos of October 13th and October 26 both videos to be shown of the interrogation in court. And quickly there then by the prosecution is a sidebar requested. And I'm sitting in your thinking during the sidebar, great. Let's stop talking about these videos. Let's see them thinking, okay. We're on our way. And interesting, I thought that it was the defense that asked to submit the evidence and the videos.

But during the sidebar, Judge Gull says, after the sidebar, Judge Gull comes back and states, we are going to show the videos sometime next week. So they're going to show these videos, but not on Saturday, sometime next week. Baldwin objects to this right away. And then a break is requested. So we went from a sidebar to Judge Gull stating, okay, we're going to watch these videos sometime next week to Baldwin objecting and a break being requested. And we have a 15 minute break. After the break, we all walk back in and I see Attorney Rosie talking warmly with Kathy Allen.

She's in her chair and he's crouched down next to her talking to her, speaking to her. A sidebar continues after the break, and there is, and after that, we continue with cross-exam. After the sidebar, I assume that he's pre-cleared a question to ask, and Baldwin states, you've talked about, right, hold on. Oh, yeah, this was interesting. He says, Baldwin says, you've talked about one lie and that you told essentially witnesses that, he says, you talked about one lie that you claimed that witnesses thought they saw a bridge guy.

And Holman says, no, no, no, I told them that the witnesses saw him on the trail and said that Richard Allen was bridge guy. And Baldwin said, but when you told him. him. And so in other words, there was a confusion. Let me just explain it. My notes are sketchy, but I know exactly what this is. There was a confusion that Lieutenant Holman might have claimed he was lying about witnesses believing they saw Bridge Guy. And so Holman is saying, no, no, no, no, that's not what I said. I said that the lie that I told Richard Allen was that witnesses said that he was bridge guy, that they saw Richard Allen. So there was a bit of clarifying

that. And Baldwin said, okay, I thought that's what you told me on the stand. And Lieutenant Holman saying, I certainly didn't mean that. Honestly, I didn't hear that listening from back in the gallery. Of course, I don't have as great of hearing being back where I am, but I did not hear that. So it was kind of confusing to me too. And so anyway, he said, no, I just said, the lie, was that I said that people on the trail said he was bridge guy and that witnesses said it was his voice and this was a lie that I told Richard Allen that day and Baldwin says well when you told him those lies he still said that he didn't do it he said I'm not lying to you oh and then Baldwin said and you even said Lieutenant Holman you said straight to Richard Allen during this interview

I'm not lying to you. It would be unethical if I lied, end quote. Holman says, I don't recall saying that. It doesn't sound like something I would normally say, but I trust you if you're saying that I said that in this interview. Baldwin says, part of the way you leveraged all of this was you used his wife and daughter to get him to confess. He said, quote,

oh, Baldwin is saying that Holman said this in the interview. quote, you're doing this to drag your fucking wife and daughter through this. If you don't, if you don't tell the truth. And Holman said, I said that. Baldwin says, you put in motion then that his, his wife and daughter would suffer if he didn't confess. and by the way Lieutenant Holman is getting quieter and quieter

during the cross-exam and it's making it harder and harder to hear everything he's saying like I am straining to hear everyone's straining to hear what he's saying and then Baldwin continues and says and even after you did that and said his wife

and daughter would suffer he stated he didn't do it and he did not even go that way Holman says and that he didn't even go the way you claimed he went and Holman actually corrected Baldwin and said no he said he could have gone multiple ways there are multiple ways that

Richard Allen claims he could have gone that day he just couldn't say which way he went on the trail and then there's an objection by Baldwin Baldwin then says or sorry there was an objection by the prosecution forgive me. Then Baldwin restates his question. He moves on and he said, look, Baldwin says, part of the way you elicit confession is to elicit his wife and daughter. You said it was over.

And then he said, you said it was over and he said it doesn't matter. Oh, you said, forgive me. Pause. Regroup. Regroup on my notes. So again, he said, you elicited it. part of the way you elicit a confession is you brought up his wife and daughter. And then Holman said, no, that's not how I was trying to get him to confess. Next question. Baldwin moves on. And he brings up how Holman said, look, when you said it was over, he said, it doesn't matter. It's over. Holman says, yes, it was me. It was not tape recorded. I was the one that said that Richard Allen stated, it's over, thus it doesn't matter. And then Baldwin says, okay, well, do you find Betsy Blair to be credible?

Betsy Blair, for a reminder, is the woman who is doing her loops on the trail. She does them every day. And she got to the bridge and she noticed a man on the first platform of the bridge. Later when she saw Bridgeguide's photos, she believed that's who she saw. So Baldwin asks, do you find Betsy Blair to be credible? Holman says, I do. Baldwin, you're aware at the time of his arrest that Betsy described a car that wasn't his. And then there's an objection and objection to that because Holman claims that he doesn't know whose car Betsy Blair was describing.

They bring up that Betsy Blair like described some mercury that she saw and there's an objection and they're arguing, look, Betsy Blair might not have seen Richard Allen's car. We don't know whose car Betsy Blair saw. So an objection to this. And then Holman says, look, we have a witness describe a man in the area. And tell me about the witness, Betsy Blair, or tell me about the witness who saw a man who was muddy and bloody. That was Sarah, correct, Baldwin asks?

and Holman says yes that was Sarah and then Baldwin says how many vehicles were on the monon or were found on the Hoosier Harvest security camera how many vehicles between 12 and 4 on surveillance were seen on the Hoover Hoosier Harvest store surveillance and there's an objection overruled and, oh, no, it was sustained. And then Baldwin says, law enforcement believes that Richard Allen left the scene and never returned to the scene. Yes, that's correct. Going back, here's the line to the answer of how many vehicles were found on the Hoosier Harvest security camera. This is important.

He said, Hoosier Harvest, didn't you see a traffic pattern? Baldwin says, didn't you see a traffic pattern on that Hoosier Harvest General Store Surveillance video. He doesn't know how many cars,

they didn't check, but didn't you see a traffic pattern. And then, Lieutenant Holman says something that I don't think is that great. He says, I didn't see the pattern. I assigned someone else to watch the video. that was quite deflating to me, I'll be honest,

because why would these investigators on this case not just out of curiosity be watching the surveillance video? I don't know, but that was disheartening to me, so I wanted to share that. So we know that Lieutenant Holman hasn't even watched the surveillance video. And then Baldwin says, law enforcement believe he left the scene

and never returned to the scene. Holman says, yes, that's correct. Baldwin says, therefore, law enforcement's theory is that Richard Allen did not take Libby's phone with him. Yes, correct. And Baldwin then says, so Richard Allen didn't sell his Ford Focus. He did not get rid of his gun and he did not get rid of his jacket. And Libby's phone would give a good example of what happened that day, correct? Holman, yes. I think he's sort of implying like is this, you know, my client, Richard Allen, essentially is not trying to hide evidence. And then Baldwin says, and by the way, Anna, Isabel, Brie, and Rayleigh are four people. They were there and they allegedly saw a bridge guy. They were four people. But Richard Allen

claims that he only saw three girls. Holman says, yes, that's true. Baldwin says, and law enforcement theorizes Richard Allen. law enforcement theorizes that it was just one person who killed Libby and Abby. Holman says yes, but there was at some point I thought early on that more than one person could have been evolved. But as time went on, I realized it was one person. Also, no one was snitching. Just usually when there are two people, something is a little bit more obvious.

And Holman absolutely believes it was just one killer. Baldwin then says, so you believe in one person doing this in just one hour, killing these girls, removing and replacing clothing, putting sticks in odd positions. You think this happened in about one hour? Holman says, yes, about an hour. Baldwin says, you believe that Libby German was killed near a tree. Holman says, yes, that's what evidence shows. So there are no drag marks, Baldwin asks.

Holman says, there are some drag marks. Baldwin says, but, okay, wait, pause, I got it. That was interesting. I'd never heard of drag marks. There are no drag marks, Baldwin says. And then Holman explains, well, there are some drag marks. Like what? That was a moment where I put an exclamation point.

What? There are some drag marks. Now, to be clear, we don't know if these drag marks were a body or a stick. Remember, these sticks, sticks, in quotes, that were placed on the bodies that I saw at the crime scene were large. They were like tree limbs. So I don't believe someone of Richard Allen's stature could have maybe even carried these. those might have been drug over to the crime scene. So I don't know if they're referring to a body or to something else,

but this is the first I've heard of drag marks at the crime scene. I did not necessarily see any when I saw the photos, but I wasn't looking for drag marks either. So there are no drag marks at the crime scene involved in states. And then Holman's response is, oh, there are some drag marks. Baldwin says, but you had the opportunity to assess the height of the man on the bridge. Holman says, well, we try to assess his height, but we just didn't get it. And Baldwin says, yeah, you didn't want to spend 10 grand to figure out his height.

And to do this, that was quite an accusation. And then Holman's response essentially was, well, it would be accurate only between one to two inches. And then that's when Baldwin says, well, five foot 10 to six feet tall, it's only two inches. And, you know,

you couldn't, I don't know what that's about, but that is upsetting to me. I would have thought that they would spend any type of money to assess this man's height, right? I mean, I don't know what Baldwin is implying

or if it's accurate, But Baldwin claims, yeah, you didn't want to spend 10 grand to find out the accurate height. And then he said, well, wouldn't be accurate. It would be minus 1 to 2 inches. The reason why I find this very disappointing is because Richard Allen is 5 foot 4 or 5 foot 5. Maybe if he was wearing hiking boots that day, he could look like he was 5 foot 7, you know, thick hiking boots. But yeah, I am surprised that they didn't do some scaling and try to figure out bridge guys' height. Baldwin says they left bloody sticks at the scene.

And Baldwin says there have been mistakes made in this case. You left bloody sticks at the scene. Holman says, yes, there have been mistakes made. Yes. Baldwin says, no fingerprints at the scene of anybody. Libby had blood on hands but Abby didn't. From where the crime scene is located, couldn't you hear people on the bridge?

And then there's an objection by the prosecution. Baldwin continues, do you think the killer could have heard people on the bridge, like a search party? Holman says, I don't think the search party happened until after the murders. The family got there at 4.30. and we believe that Richard Allen left at 3.57.

Holman says that he believes Betsy Blair's description that she shared of seeing a man on the bridge. He believes that bridge guy was the one whose audio is on the video. The bridge guy is the audio on the video. And the last time, and then Baldwin says the last time Libby's phone connected to power was 544. right? Objection because of foundation. And so Baldwin comes back and restates his question. Sir, do you remember the deposition? Can I refresh your memory of May of this year? And Lieutenant Holman says, yes, you can. Richard Allen, by the way, at this moment is taking notes. He is definitely right-handed. Many of you have asked me that. He writes only with his right-hand.

Did I say left-handed or right-handed? He is right-handed. He writes only. He writes only. with his right hand. And during this moment, Richard Allen is taking notes. Baldwin then says, Kelsey German's phone. So again, Kelsey German is the older sister of Libby German who dropped Libby and Abby off that day

and who was trying to find them. So he says, Kelsey German's phone was never extracted to see if it could help in your investigation. Holman, who I could. could not hear at this moment. His voice is getting softer and softer at this moment. So I don't know what he said in response to Kelsey German's phone, never being extracted.

Baldwin then says, do you know that Libby's phone was under Abby's body from the last movement to when their bodies were found? And Holman says, yes, that is what I believe. Baldwin says, but you didn't realize Libby's phone reconnected to the tower at 430. and then prosecution jumps up and says, we need to clarify some evidence. Before I jump there, I want to say something that's interesting. Baldwin's saying, you didn't realize that Libby's phone reconnected to the Tower at 430.

The defense is sort of changing their narrative here. The defense had tried to say that originally, back in the day, that Libby's phone was turned off and that somebody turned it back on. and it was said in court under oath that Libby's phone according to the extraction, the cell data, was never turned off. It did not lose power or turn off until about 544 or something.

And so I noticed how Baldwin the defense worded this. They did not say the phone turned off. They said, but you didn't realize Libby's phone reconnected to the tower at 430. So there's no proof that like her phone turned off in other words. Now the prosecution jumps up and says, look, we need to clarify. So they're ready to question their witness again. But first he says, he explains, McClellan explains, we need to clarify some evidence that was construed in Baldwin's questioning. We need to clarify some evidence. He said, first off, first thing we need to clarify, the video.

of Bridge Guy was at 2.13 p.m. And that was the abduction of the girls. That was when we believe the abduction of the girls happened at 2.13. Sarah sees muddy and bloody guy two hours later. So this was not an hour crime. This was a two hour crime. In witness testimonies,

both Sarah, Rayleigh, and Bree characterized the man they saw as bridge guy. the sticks on the body were believed to be cam we're believed to camouflage the body is that correct yes so there is zero evidence the girls were taken to a different location absolutely zero evidence mclellan says and by the way i changed my mind but it is true that I have not seen any evidence of bodies taken off and brought to a different location. If someone brings evidence, I'll believe it, but I have not seen any evidence that that happened so far in court. McClellan then says there is no phone data that shows the phone moved again after. There is absolutely no phone data that shows the phone ever moved again.

and then McClellan states that Baldwin implied that you were lying to Richard Allen about witnesses seeing him but that's true that Richard Allen that Richard Allen the witnesses did see

bridge guy Holman says that's correct Baldwin then stands up again so this comes back again you told me Lieutenant Holman and perhaps I misunderstood. Holman told me that he lied about telling Richard Allen people had identified Richard Allen as bridge guy. So that makes sense again. I'm like, yeah, you just stated that.

That's what I heard too, Baldwin, just so you know. And then after that, after the prosecution clarifies the evidence, they're pretty much content. And now we move to jury questions. Is there a way to get to where the girls were without crossing the bridge? This was an interesting moment. Okay, so first jury question, is there a way to get to where the girls were without him needing, without bridge guy needing to fully cross the bridge?

Is the question. Holman responds, and McClellan jumps in to help Lieutenant Holman out. McClellan jumps in. Okay, look, McClellan says, where in the video is Bridge Guy? He's on the bridge. Okay.

So Bridge Guy would get to where he was in the video by crossing the bridge. Otherwise, he would have had to have walked past Abby and past Libby to get to where he was. was on this video. And that just doesn't make any sense, McClellan is saying on behalf of Holman. And Baldwin jumps up and says,

look, at 207 p.m., there is a picture of Abby walking down the bridge. And when you look at that photo, there is no one behind her. So it is not preposterous to think the bridge guy maybe did walk past the girls and walk back. And then Holman's answer is, yes, it's not preposterous.

I'm going to pause there. So when I was going to do this on my computer, I actually had pulled up the picture of Abby taken at 207 p.m. But because I'm on my phone now, I can't pull up my PDFs or JPEGs and share my screen. But I do recommend everyone going and looking just Abby on the bridge at 207 p.m. It was a photo that was the last anyone really. ever saw before the girls were abducted minus the 213 video.

And so it's a super sad photo for me to look at. And it was taken allegedly at 207 p.m. But I have to just say, I'm listening. I've looked at the photo. There's no bridge guy behind her. But it's not wild to think that Richard Allen, who frequented that bridge often. Like we have all the photos from that bridge from his house that were collected.

This was a spot he went often. His daughter later did her, or earlier or later did her graduation photos on the bridge. I think it would certainly be a reason that Abby and Libby were frightened was if bridge guy started walking quite quickly. and it could be a reason why they were running to the end of the bridge because they didn't know where else to go as this guy just really walked quickly towards them and and you know, Libby is telling Abby there's a path and then Abby saying, I don't see a path and then you hear down the, and then you hear that be a gun and then you hear down the hill. I don't think it's completely unheard of that bridge guy could have quickly seven minutes is a long time.

Like seven, I mean, like, I try to go walking 20 minutes a day to get exercise. And, you know, that's, that's half of that amount. And if he was good at walking the bridge and he was a local, that's just not, that's not preposterous in my opinion. But I'm open. I am open and so in other words, what was presented in court today by the defense was this idea that bridge guy might not have come across the bridge, that he might have been elsewhere, came from behind Abby and Libby, past them, and then turned around. So, and Holman responded to Baldwin saying it's not, it's not preposterous to consider that. And then Baldwin says, do you know where Derek? Oh, so the next jury question.

Next jury question. Do you know where Derek German was when he was shouting for the girls? Again, Derek German is Libby's father. And Holman says, I don't know exactly where he was. Then that's it for court. Judge Gull says to the jury to not research or anything that they are allowed visits and calls with their family on Sunday, but not to talk to them about the case. And during this time, right after court, we're all sort of going outside of the courtroom. Baldwin is

seeing passing a note to Kathy Allen after the jury leaves and it was like a yellow legal paper that was kind of ripped I assume I'm assuming it's from Richard Allen

that Baldwin passed a note from Richard Allen that he wrote to his wife Kathy and I don't know what it said but it's just something I saw and that's that's it for today um i'm gonna i'm before i leave um and i'm sorry the chat's going so fast again it's very difficult for me to slow it down i hope you guys have been okay i hope my moderators have been surviving i'm just going to scan um the chat a bit and see if there's

anything this hearing was today saturday yes you're right the burden is on the state They have to prove guilt. They have a theory and they have to prove it. I agree. Let's leave other creators alone, by the way. Thanks, guys. All right, you know what? Chat is going too fast for me even.

Thank you, Beldey so much. I will do that. Thank you to all the people have shared their support today. I really appreciate it. It means so much. Tomorrow is a day off. And then actually, I have a podcast and as well. So if some of you ever want to listen to this on a podcast, please subscribe to Hidden True Crime Podcast.

We have a lot there and we're going in order with Delphi. So if you find YouTube videos hard to find or manage, just that's a tip. We're going in order there with our Delphi coverage. and then I'm going to have a recap of the week, hopefully by tomorrow. Yeah, so that's what I'm going to do tomorrow. So it'll be a day off for court, but not a day off for me. And I will get you that update. Thank you, everyone.

All right, I've gone as far back with the chat as I can, and I thought I could maybe say, great use investigates the stating. So the bridge guy that Betsy saw is an identical match to bridge guy who passed at the other end of the bridge. And then Betsy Blair did not see Bridge Guy again. Where did he go? I mean, that is a good point, Gray, in that if Betsy saw a man who she believed was Bridge Guy on the first platform, that would also imply that that was the direction Bridge Guy came from. I actually agree with that.

It just seems more likely that Bridge Guy. would have come across the bridge rather than come the other way, go past the girls. But who knows? Who knows? I'm listening. Bridge guy was dressed to 50 to 75% of the men in Indiana. I've been looking around actually because that's definitely a theory. And that hasn't proven to be true. Because I'm here in Delphi and I've actually never seen anyone in that outfit since I've been here. And as we heard from some of the witnesses, they said it was actually a rather warm day

for February and he seemed to be overdressed, bridge got, you know, the person that they saw. Laura, I would love that. I do believe that we have them, but if you would send them to Hidden True Crime Info at gmail.com, I definitely would like to refresh my memory because it's been a month or two since I read them. And I don't even know if I can find them anymore.

So thank you, Laura. All right, everyone. The jury was interested in Holman's testimony. They're paying attention. The jury pays attention. This is a jury that is following along. As I explained yesterday, sometimes it's like a tennis match. They're going back and forth, looking at the defense and prosecution,

because they're over here on this side of the jury. So the counsel is on this side of the jury. The jury's to the side, and then they look to the right to see the witness. And so they'll look and they'll look and they'll look. and the look in all 12 heads turn. Oh, that's what else this person said in the courtroom today. That's interesting. She said, again, she's been listening to all the live streams.

She's been following this Keith for seven years, is interested listening to everyone in court. And this is her first time in courtroom today. She also said that she was actually very surprised at how diverse the jury was. And, you know, I think I said, like, look, it's not like ethnically diverse, but, you know, we're in a small town in Indiana, so I'm not necessarily surprised by that. But to her, she thought it was incredibly diverse as far as the ages goes. She said she pictured in her mind that most jurors would be retirement age because that's

when they have workoff. But she said she saw people who she thought were in their 20s. She saw people who she thought were in their 70s. And then she saw a guy that looked like a typical Midwest down. So that is somebody else's perspective of the jury I wanted to relay that they feel that the jury is quite diverse. All right. I'm going to take off. I'm so sorry.

Thank you, everyone. I'll be here going live Monday at lunch. So I go live at lunch and then I go live after court and I am going to work on this internet. But the good news is my phone worked today. So if you guys have to keep watching vertical videos of me going live, we will do it, whatever it takes, as long as I get the information out there and recap. But hopefully, hopefully we have a better live stream going next week and we figure out this connection issue. Thanks guys, so, so much.

And Rebecca, soon. When can we get Dr. John's analysis of the trial so far very soon? In fact, Dr. John has plans after the trial for actually like a six-episode season. He has a lot to say. But we also want to see how this trial completely plays out. So even after the trial, we plan to continue our thoughts on Delphine. Yeah. So all right.

Thanks, everyone. We'll see you. Ay, aye, aye, but Jonas just flinaer to elandet. Moron traffic. Little enclare when you trives on job. Good thing for industry, school and contor.

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