Hidden True Crime - DELPHI: Richard Allen Trial, Thursday 10/24/24 Inside The Courtroom: Seized Items

Episode Date: October 27, 2024

Richard Allen Trial Witness Testimony Thursday 10/24/24 About Hidden True Crime: Lauren Matthias, a former television reporter, and her husband Dr. John Matthias, a criminal psychologist, started Hidden True Crime in 2020 with their Season, 'Beyond the Veil,' a psychological deep dive into the doomsday murders and prophet. What started as a simple conversation at their dinner table became a captivating podcast. Join the dynamic duo of Dr. John Matthias, a forensic psychologist, and Lauren Matthias, an investigative journalist, as they delve into the psychological facets of unthinkable crimes every week. Their unique perspectives and in-depth analysis offer a fresh take on true crime storytelling. Thank you for your support through sponsorships, subscribing, listening, and becoming a Patreon member at Patreon.com/HiddenTrueCrime Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Quince uses premium materials like European linen, organic cotton, but they cut out the middleman. So everything is priced way lower than you'd expect. Refresh. your every day with luxury you can actually use. Head to quince.com slash hidden true crime for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quince, quince, q-u-in-c-com slash hidden true crime for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash hidden true crime. I'm continuing to report from Delphi, Indiana, spending long nights in line and sitting in court each day to bring you detailed reports from the Richard Allen trial. Alan is charged with murdering best friends, 13-year-old Abigail Williams, and 14-year-old Liberty German in February of 2017. And the judge has actually decided to not only

not televise this trial, but to also not even share audio. Thus, I am here to be the eyes and ears of the courtroom. These episodes are nightly live streams that I record on YouTube shortly after court ends each day. And if you notice these episodes are a bit more choppy than our other episodes, please understand why. We are working around the clock to bring you the very latest on the trial with a quick turnaround. And if you would like to catch the full unedited live stream, you can always head over to Hidden True Crime on YouTube. Hello, Hidden Jams. Forgive me for being just a little bit late. There is a lot to cover tonight. A lot to cover. So I was giving my notes ready. And I also have, um, so,

of my roommate's notes so that when I get stuck, I can just double check myself with her. We're going to go slow today and cover everything to happen in court. And the reason there is a lot to cover when it comes to the Richard Allen trial in Delphi, Indiana. It was day six of the trial. It's October 24th, 2024 today. Richard Allen was mentioned for the first time by the prosecution, really setting the stage, six witnesses today.

We're going to go through all of them. Slowly but surely. There are a lot of notes. It's good to see everyone here. So we're going to jump into it. Before we do, I'm going to show you guys a little bit behind the scenes where I'm sleeping. And each night,

and I just realized we've got this major filter on. I don't know why. I think it was, is that better? Yeah, I looked all like fuzzy. There you go. was a filter. So before we do that, we're going to jump to this behind the scenes video.

It's also, I also, it's also a sponsor, Dream Beam, who is helping to make this trip possible. We love this company. We are so grateful that they are allowing us to be here and helping John and I to be here. And by John and I being here, what I mean is me being here because John is taken, one for the team at home, holding down the Ford at home for me while we do this, dividing forces. So I'll show you guys just how this is working at night for us to be able to get in and share our sponsor.

We set at camp at the Carroll County Courthouse so that we can get into the Richard Allen trial. Welcome to where I'm sleeping in Delphi, Indiana. When I signed up, admittedly when I signed up to do this. trial when John and I talked about it and decided it would be really important for me to be here. I did not realize I was signing up to sleep on the steps of the Carroll County Courthouse but that is what all of us have been having to do every day. Grab our buddy. Purchase the sleeping bag at Target. Not sponsored but thank you Target and I had these, bought these, we have hand warmers ready. It's getting colder at night

I bought a new coat and I also have, I just want to say I brought this from home. It's the only thing I brought that I'm, that was right, but I brought my capsules, my dream being, my dream capsules as well as my dream. For those that are new to the channel or don't know, I suffer from pretty severe insomnia and that is not going to work as we need rest during this time. So I'm able to crash with the help of dream. Dream is all natural. I'm so grateful that they're helping to sponsor this and make this trip possible so we can bring you the latest.

But I just wanted to give you a bit of the behind the scenes and also just truly thank our sponsor, Dream. It is a nighttime blend for a better sleep. It has healthy mushrooms in it. It has magnesium. It has some melatonin. It has truly been a life changer for our family and genuinely. truly saving the day and it certainly is on this trip so I have been enjoying it tonight I have a little hot drink here it's I'm sipping it and I've also taken a

capsule because I'm gonna need a little bit more extra a little bit extra drink to make tonight and we'll be ready to go for I think is it day six tomorrow day six I'm already losing track of days it was day five I went live or early today tomorrow is day six so we will be here we are we will not be first in line A guy named Will is in front of us. He beat us to it. But we're second in line here. And so we will be in court tomorrow.

And hopefully I'll be able to wake up and not feel groggy either because I'll be able to crash out here. And tomorrow will be a good day. So, all right. Anyway, behind the scenes, take a look. Look at our setup over here. Joining with us on this journey. Yes. Thank you for joining us on this journey.

And thank you to Dream Beam for joining. us on this journey too. We love Dream. I have a early access code to their biggest sale of the year. It's 50% off. You can find the website. It is pinned in chat or in the description of this video. Use code true crime to get that 50% off. And again, we have early access to their biggest sale of the year starting tonight. So thank you to everyone making this possible. including our sponsor, Dream, who we truly love. We love their product and we love the company. All right.

Let's get to the six witnesses. Thank you, Troublemaker. Six witnesses today on the stand, starting with, well, before we get to the witnesses, let me tell you about, let me set the stage with today. there was this morning not a single spare seat. So it was a good thing that we were second in line. So again, after I finished my live last night, I went and got ready. And that was actually last night that you just saw there.

And so I'll be doing the same thing tonight as soon as I'm done with this live. I'll be going to getting in my sweats and my long underwear and heading back out. So this morning, not a single spare seat. And I was sitting next to Dennis, Libby's grand. father on our other side. Many people know Mike and Becky Patty. Those are the grandparents that she was living with. Libby was living with along with Kelsey. They are there every day too. I should mention them more, but Becky Patty is there every day and as is Mike Patty. And then Libby's mother is also there every day. They are from out of state. Libby's mother and her half, Libby's half sisters are there.

Today we were sitting next to Dennis Libby's grandfather on her mom's side. And he explained he wasn't there yesterday. He did not want to remember Libby the way the autopsy photos or the crime scenes photo show her. He has seen a couple of them before trial began. They showed him just before trial began, but he did not want to be there. And today he was there. As well, Abby's, Abby's grandpa and grandma are all.

also there sitting on the prosecution side. So Abby's family is represented. And then on the defense side, as I've shared, Kathy Allen, Richard Allen's wife and his mother have been there every day. And today Richard Allen's father was also there. He comes every so often. He's been there almost like every other day, I guess you could say. I'm sure he's there when he can.

So just to let you know some of the people who are in the courtroom, I thought it was also really kind. Becky Patty came up to a journalist today. The journalist actually sitting in on the defense side. So I thought for a second, oh, is she going to ask him to move out of the defense or are these reserved seats? She went up to just let this gentleman know that she's been watching his work and appreciates everything he's doing. It was a very kind moment to witness. Everybody has been, she's really touching to see everybody's families in there. So yeah, just a little bit about what's going on in the courtroom too.

So full courtroom this morning and the first witness that is called is Kathy Shank. And Kathy Shank ends up being a very big deal when it comes to this case. And she is the witness that, again, the prosecution uses to finally introduce Richard Allen. Richard Allen sitting there every day. but we we've only heard of bridge guy we haven't heard the prosecution assert the idea that bridge guy is richard allen but today uh we did and it starts with thank you lisa it starts with um it starts with kathie shank s h a n k kathy has been in delphi for 40 years she explains that She was actually originally from Florida,

but she was essentially raised in Carroll County. She attended Purdue. And then for 40 years, which I assume is what brought her specifically to Delphi, she was for 40 years with the Department of Child Services. And she worked extensively with law enforcement during that time. And so she was actually in Florida when the murders of Abby and Libby happened. She was out of state. And so when the moment she got home, she called Rob and she told

him that she wanted to help. Like just as a volunteer, she wanted to help. She knew who to call. And so in March of 2017, again, the murders happened in February, just right around Valentine's Day, the day before Valentine's Day, February 13, 2017. And so in March, she started working on the case as a volunteer. Kathy Schington. And she was basically at the beginning a receptionist because they had the old, you know, I wrote the old R&C building and my roommate wrote the old R&BC building. And I genuinely don't know. They repeated it many times. And every time I listened and there was another person in next to us that wrote both. So I can't tell you what that old building knows, but that was where law enforcement was set up because they were working with, they had, they were getting

so many tips a day when the murders happened that they had to just like almost set up a headquarters where there could be volunteers where they could be law enforcement from multiple jurisdictions and just have a place. And so this was either the RNC or the RNEC built. building, R-E-N-C building. So she explained that as a receptionist, Kathy Shink, started working again in March 2017. When people would come in with tips to this building, she had an info sheet. And Kathy would write down, can you guys hear me okay, by the way? I just realized I was sitting a little bit further from my mic than I should.

I unplugged my mic moving it around. Are we okay? So I just unmuted it. Are we good? Okay, good sound. Okay. I will not move my mic anymore because it clearly is very sensitive, my travel mic. So when, again, people would come into this building with their tips,

Kathy had the info information sheet and she wrote down the info and she would take this information upstairs to detectives who would then come down if it was a really important tip. If she felt it was an important enough tip as a receptionist, she would take this up and a detective would come down to talk to the person. There were 50 or more law enforcement, et cetera, working on the investigation right at the beginning around the clock. But she was, they were all upstairs and she was mostly downstairs and she didn't really see what was going on upstairs. But then as time went on, Kathy was given more or more and I'm special, that's in quote special duties.

She was essentially as a volunteer, a dedicated volunteer, and they realized just how competent she was. This is my interpretation of it. They kept giving her more work. And I just have to say, I have a lot of respect for Kathy Schenck for being a person that did this for law enforcement to the point where it went on, time went on, and she kept getting more and more duties and being trusted to do more and more. and she was clearly an impressive worker bee.

So let's hear a little bit more about what she did. So she was giving more duties and she was given boxes then full of investigative reports. And she stays as she is an organizer by nature. And she actually asked the detectives for a bunch of filing cabinets because she wanted to organize all of these reports. She also made a difference between there are tips and there are reports. We're going to hear more about that later, but you're going to understand more just the difference in how this process worked as they were investigating these murders in the early days. So she received her filing cabinets and she put files into the cabinets, labeling them.

she would look at the names, but she was actually asked not to get into the details of the reports, just sort of file them and organize of them. And she did that. She filed five giant filing cabinets. So like tall filing cabinets, the metal kind with multiple drawers, she filled five of them.

And a friend was also helping her with the filing because she was sort of vetted, checked out, and the two filed and organized as the tip. started to slow down throughout the process, they then said, you know what, why don't you, Kathy, start going through the reports? And she was requested to put these different narrative summaries into a database. Now, she referred sometimes to these things as narrative summaries, and then she sometimes referred to them as reports and sometimes referred to them as tips. So I'm going to jump ahead a little bit and help you understand because she explained it later on

the definition of all these and it really helped me. So before we go any further, a narrative summary, when Kathy says a narrative summary, she's actually meaning a report. And a tip is a tip. A tip may or may not mean that a report or narrative summary happens. A tip is something that comes in and if it seems interesting enough, they would have a detective or a law enforcement go out and investigate this tip. And once they investigated the tip, then a narrative summary or a report would happen.

And pretty much I learned from Kathy. A narrative summary is the same name as a report. So you can use those back and forth. A tip is what happens before that happens. So the summaries, the narrative summaries were in these reports. And the database that they would be filled out required a lead section. And each lead got a number, sort of like a serial number. They didn't use that term.

I'm using that term. but each one got its own separate number associated with the lead tip in the lead section. And then Kathy was asked to begin entering the tips directly into the database, so this database system on the computer. And the tips were actually forwarded to Kathy now through her email. And Sheriff Wiggett at the time said that Kathy can do this. And then she really became part of the Abby Libby tip line. and tips started coming in directly to Kathy, directly to her, most often through emails.

They then moved from the old building, R-N-E-C-R-E-N-C-R-N-C building, to a city building. And she always answered to supervisors. She was never fully in charge. She always answered to supervisors. She explained that she always answered to law enforcement. But they would sort of, like, give her more and more duties. and broaden her duties. When they moved to the new building,

there were fewer law enforcement in the city building. She took her five filing cabinets with her, and she then started to enter all of the info from those files into the database. Now, remember that Kathy was originally not asked to really look at these files. She was asked just to file them, put them in order, get them organized and filing cabinets.

But now she's asked to actually go through all of these reports that she originally filed and enter the information into the database. Hence, her skill set and being vetted and being trusted, they're saying, you know what, now go ahead and do this. And she began entering that info into the database. When she, Kathy, received a tip, it now went directly into the database. And in September of 2020, so three years after the murders, she was then asked to scan all of the information in each file into the database.

So essentially making copies of all of her filing cabinet. So she had organized and now they're saying, you know what, go and scan every single thing in those filing cabinet and put every single thing into the database. And this took her approximately two years. years to do. So it started in 2020 and she would often read these files now in more detail and more depth because now she was allowed to. And then they once again moved locations and the filing cabinets once again came with Kathy. And she continued to process according to the database and over 14,000

tips. She would go into work again. Remember, this is a volunteer. She's retired. She would go in at around 1.30 a.m. and she would stay until 5.30 and she would do this five days a week. Everyone needs a Kathy in their life. I just so much respect for this volunteer. When they moved from city building to the current location, she brought additional materials that she needed to go through and she discovered a file box in her desk. And she went through the box and she was surprised to find out that they were handwritten tips with numbers. And she realized this happened prior to her being in the office.

So we're talking February 2017. So she was not in the office at this time when these tips were coming in. Remember, she was in Florida. She didn't start until March 2017. And she just discovered this in her desk, these handwritten tips that she had never entered and realized, again, they were, tips that had come in prior to her being in the office, and that these also needed to be put in the database. And when she went through them, she found a lead sheet.

And this lead sheet states that it was entered on February 16th, three days after the murders of Abby and Libby, three days. and excuse me um and uh and uh and that on february 16th when it was entered that it was richard allen and oddly the the tip sheet usually what she says she does is you when you when you figure out a tip or a lead sheet you find out who was given to why it was given and followed up, and this was unique in that this was a self-reported tip, meaning it came from Richard Allen himself on February 16th, being, and that he stated three days after the murder that he was on the trail, the Monon High Bridge Trail, the same trail Abby and Libby were on, from 1.30 until 3.30 in the afternoon on February 13th.

and he stated that he had seen hold on I'm going to double check this with my friend's notes I think it might have been three girls let's see um stated that he had seen three girls at the trail that day as well between 1.30 and 3.30. So Kathy explains that the moment she read this, it really caught her attention because there had been a witness and we heard from all of these

witnesses by the way and they're all talked about in the probable cause that she had there was a witness that had been on the trail who had seen a man and it was enough to put the folder titled so again it was titled Richard Allen Whiteman so it wasn't just Richard Allen It was titled, the folder was titled Richard Allen Whiteman. And this was just enough for her to put this lead into a folder entitled Richard Allen Whiteman. And she doesn't know how that exact lead sheet was found in that box. And the lead sheet was created in February 2017. And she started working again in March of 2017.

And when she received a tip on the Abby Libby tip line, she would automatically put it in the database directly. Clearly, she wasn't around then, nor would this have been her job back then. So then she goes to these file folders. So she takes this Richard Allen lead sheet and she puts it in a folder and a file in her cabinet titled Richard Allen Whiteman. So she goes to this file folder because she's curious. And she notices that something is, that something was entered into the database before

she started working. And that it was the fact that there was a Richard Allen who had been interviewed and what she found had the word cleared on it. So Richard Allen had been interviewed and yet the word clear had been written on this interview like that he had been cleared. It was not her job to clear or make that decision ever, but she just, her. she took this information to Tony, who he's now the sheriff. We're going to hear from Tony in a little bit. So, so she decided to take this to Tony. Tony Liggett, I believe, is his name.

He is the now sheriff. He was not the sheriff originally when the murders happened. He is now. And he took, she took this to Tony. And she changed. And she changed. the filed folder that said Richard Allen Whiteman to simply Richard Allen. She reworded it. And this was on September 21st, 2022. So on 2021st, 2022, the prosecution, and it was McClellan that did all of the questioning today on all six witnesses. McClellan is, he was lead prosecutor, and I was certainly lead today. And he asked her, now people are going to be, surprised that you remember this date so clearly can you explain why you know a certainty that it was on September 21st, 2022. And she said that it was her deceased husband's birthday. So she clearly

remembers when she discovered this interview lead. And then they ask, they submit jury exhibit 28 to the jury. And Dennis, by the way, they were sitting next to, uh, Dennis, Libby's grandfather, he actually mentions to us that he had known Kathy for years due to the investigation. So he let us know that Kathy has been well known because of this investigation. So now there's cross-exam and Baldwin with the defense does the cross-exam. And his first question is, there is no Richard Whiteman, right? Kathy states, I don't know if there is or isn't a Richard Whiteman. But it was a a mistake and the initial entry that said cleared was labeled raw. Like it was labeled raw.

Baldwin states the details matter to you and the organization matters. And she says, yes, it does. You said, well, on the second page, Orion, do you know what Orion is? Kathy says, yes, Orion is the database. Baldwin. So there was a time where you put tips in there in Orion. Ryan, please explain this. Kathy explains that yes, she would put all of this in the tip line. She would then, she would put all of, she would put all of the tip line tips that she received into the database, Orion, and she would then enter him. She then explains that narrative summaries, as she calls them, are sometimes called

reports, and that is when an officer speaks to someone of interest after their there's a tip received. And I was to enter all of this into the database prior. And so prior, though, to me working, this happened, right? Again, she's explained that she can't answer the defense as to why this happened or how it happened, but she was not there at this time. She explains that the system is quite the hierarchy, that there was a tip entered to generate a lead. And then a lead would be assigned by Kathy and it would be followed up by law enforcement.

And it would become a report after it was followed up by law enforcement. That is also a narrative summary. And then it was entered into the database. Baldwin asks, why does the witness matter? Oh, then Baldwin asks, this is interesting. Why does the witness who allegedly saw bridge guy, because that's what the witnesses said, that they believe that they saw bridge guy. Why does this witness matter? Because she's claiming she saw a muscular man, which, by the way, this is really,

there was a lot of throwing shade at Richard Allen in court because the defense is just like so determined to explain that this objective idea of Richard Allen being muscular. There's just, if a witness mentions someone is muscular, there's just no way in hell it's Richard Allen according to the defense so it is a little funny with Richard Allen sitting there um you know of course the defense is trying to assert there's no way that bridge guy or Richard Allen are the same person and it's because this witness saw a muscular man and there's just no way anything with muscles can be Richard Allen I guess

um I don't know why so Kathy answers why doesn't matter this witness matter because this witness said that she saw a muscular man. And Kathy says, the thing that caught my attention was that this witness saw a man at this time, this date, this place, and that it was the same place that a witness saw a man on the trail. And I put in parentheses, what she's referring to is, is she also, oh, a man on the road, she's also explained that Sarah said she saw a man at 357 and, um, and, uh, Richard Allen self reported that he was there from 1.30 to 3.30. Kathy is actually staying calm with the defense questioning her. She knows her organization. That's a little note I wrote. I thought she stayed impressively calm with some really pushy, um, questioning.

She said at one point there were 14,000 tips at one time she would assign numbers to every single tip. She said a lot of the tips were just people saying like, I think it's my neighbor. I thought that was a really interesting moment and I wrote that down and I circled it because one thing that people say over and over again is that these crimes completely changed Delphi, this tight-knit town. And think about that for seven years. people are calling in tips accusing their neighbor of perhaps being bridge guy or perhaps being a murderer. Like everyone was suspicious of everyone in this small town. They still are. There's still so many questions about this case. You know, with Doug Carter saying that we believe that the killer is hiding in plain sight. Everyone was very suspicious of everyone around them. And Kathy confirms this at this moment.

She says a lot of the tips of these 14,000 tips coming up are people just saying, that they think the bridge guy was their need. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers, spammers, even stalkers. It's why you get endless robocalls and why ads seem to follow you everywhere. That's where ORA comes in.

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Plus, if you subscribe, you'll get an additional 20% off. Discover your true age today. Baldwin asks about a specific tip. Wouldn't you know, Baldwin asks, if someone Someone reported a man that was bloody. So now he's referring to serious testimony yesterday. He's like, wouldn't you know, Kathy, if someone reported a man on the trail that day or on the street that day that was bloody, muddy and bloody. Kathy says, yes, actually, I do remember. And I recall reading about a bloody man somewhere.

But she isn't sure if she read about it in a news report or a police report. And Baldwin says, the man that came in to tell you about. Richard Allen was Richard Allen himself? Kathy says yes, was Richard Allen himself. And now there is a redirect. Let me make sure that I wanted to share one thing. Okay, we're good. Oh, also during the cross exam, this is what I wanted to share.

Baldwin also mentioned that Mr. Liggett, that's Tony, was running for sheriff. He started to say that, which is pretty bold, right? Now he's going to, I think where Baldwin is going to, go with his cross is like so you told you told tony liggett in 2022 about the possibility of richard allen and now bald went on processing and and let's talk about how there was a how mr liggett tony liggett was actually running for sheriff so he would have a self-interest in that but before he could spit out the entire question there was an objection and it was sustained so we didn't get into that those would have been some really muddy waters,

but that was shut down. On the redirect, the McClellan prosecution asks, if there is a roadblock and you get a tip from this roadblock, would you be asked to enter it? And Kathy explains that roadblock tips would already have been entered.

And then they ask if there are, any jury questions. And there are some jury questions. One of the jury questions was, how did you determine that the name of Richard Allen Whiteman was incorrect? It's a great question. I have the same question. And she said that when she saw Richard Allen Whiteman file, she knew that there was a Whiteman drive and she wondered if this was Richard Allen of Whiteman Drive. So she suspected it might have been an address of sorts. And there we go. And she remembered seeing Richard Allen's name when she filed her organized files. That's what else it is.

So even though she saw Richard Allen Whiteman, she knew that once upon a time she had filed a folder in her filing cabinet titled Richard Allen. It just, that's where it seemed to go. So she just sort of figured it out. All right. And that was the first hour and now we're at 10 a.m. So that was a lot of information. That was a lot of information from Kathy. But it was done in pretty much an hour.

And we are now. So we're cruising along today, and we are now to new witness, Daniel Dolan. Daniel Dolan is a conservation officer, 20 years experience. And so his primary duties are the same as law enforcement, but he is also part of the hunting, fishing, and has those duties as well being a conservation officer. In February of 2017, at that time, he had the same responsibilities as like a lieutenant would have. but it was a different title. And on 2016, 2017, that's the day that Richard Allen self-reported.

So now we're figuring out why we're calling Daniel Dullen. He came on the investigation to assist in any way they needed. He went to the command center and he offered his services. He and he was requested to follow up on any lead. that they received. So three days after the murder. So the morning updates on the case, he distributed leads to officers following up. And his job was to find out where people were on February 13th. Makes sense. Where were all these people that were coming in with tips on February 13th, the day of the alleged, the alleged day of the murders? And, and,

his job was to make a lead out of these tips. So that was to collect in order to make a lead out of tips. You would need a name and a contact, the person who called in with the tip and what their lead was and why. And then he took those leads to find out where people were on February 13th to follow up. And he recalls taking the lead on Richard Allen in 2017. And there is a request for the jury to publish the lead sheet for the jury.

And so his job was to follow up with Richard Allen Whiteman. And what he was supposed to do was he was supposed to find out his status, get his number, and find out where he was. And he picked it up to investigate in February of 2017 and Dullin made contact with the person. I contacted him by phone, he explains, on the lead sheet, and I spoke to him. He wanted to meet me at the grocery store parking lot. And this stood out to Dolan because he preferred to meet these people at their house or at the office, his office. And since he was who called in with the lead, Richard Allen was the person who called in with the lead, he had figured that he would be able to go to Richard Allen's house,

but he met him in this parking lot of a grocery store. And he admitted to being, and Richard Allen during this meeting in the grocery store parking lot, admitted to Dullen once again that he was on the trail, the Monon Highbridge Trail on February 13th between 1.30 and 3 p.m. And so Dillon pointed out that this was, different from the lead that was initially called in. He initially had said that he was on the trail from 1.30 to 3.30. And now in the grocery store parking lot, he switched it to 1.30 to 3.

So he's leaving a half hour earlier. So he adjusted the time. And he indicated, once again, that he saw three girls at Freedom Bridge. I'm going to stop there and remind you that there was a Brie Wilbur, as well as Rayleigh, that testified, and they were at the bridge with four. They were with Anna and Isabel, Rayleigh's little sisters, and then Bree and Rayleigh were good friends, and they were older.

And so there were four girls, not three. But both, all of the girls believe that they saw Bridge Guy. And they reported it to police. And so this is where they're going with this, is they believe Richard Allen, if he's saying that he saw three girls on the trail, and that's all he saw, he claimed,

they're wondering then if this is indeed Rayleigh and Bree and crew. So Richard Allen claims that he was parked at the, he indicates that he saw three girls at Freedom Bridge and that he was parked at the Farm Bureau parking lot. But we spoke about it, And it was, Dolan says that he and Richard Allen spoke about it. And it was obvious that where he was really parked was at the old CPS building, Child Protective Services building.

He knew that because there was no Farm Bureau building near the trail. Like it didn't exist. It wasn't even a thing. And so as they continued to talk about it, Dolan recalls understanding that where he was really parked was the old CPS building. And he said and Richard Allen stated that he didn't. not see anyone else on the trail. And he really wasn't paying attention to much.

The only people he saw on the trail that day were the three girls. He recorded, so Dolan recorded what Richard Allen said by taking notes, but he did not video or audio record this conversation. And he doesn't know why he didn't. It was one of his first leads. and he did record his other leads later on. He collected the phone data from Richard Allen, including his serial number. He collected, he wrote a word doc for his notes,

and he wrote it all down within an hour of his interview with Richard Allen. And that meant the same day as the interview. He wrote it all down. Mr. Allen's driver's license, he got a copy of that, and he copied that after he finished concluded the interview and the driver's license is shown to the jury when it's shown to the jury we don't really get to see it but sometimes i'm lucky and it gets flipped around by an attorney and i did see this and i'll say that i saw just a giant photo of richard allen looking a lot younger um than he is now a lot younger um and so it was

This is driver's license that I saw from back then. And again, Richard Allen explains that he was headed towards the Monon High Bridge. So he was on the trail, on the Monon High Bridge trail, which doesn't mean you go all the way to the bridge sometimes. You can go to the Freedom Bridge. You can go to a lot of places.

But he was on his way to the Monon High Bridge, and he saw the three girls. And this was all written down in the Word Doc. Again, he also collected his DMV information. And then in September of 2022, he received a call from investigator Roland. And he told Dolan, and Dolan told this investigator that, you know, this Richard Allen interview he did sounded familiar. But I might have had, and I had binders with all this info. So I looked through it and I searched Richard Allen and it brought up my word document, Dolan says.

and it brought up my narrative. And I found my binder and it refreshed my memory completely of this interview. I brought the docs I had from the case and said, here, this is what I remember. And this is 2022 now. He also explained that there's a point of sale system when someone purchases a fishing license or a hunting license. And again, remember that Dolan has access to, these fishing licenses because he's part of the conservation and natural resources. He's a conservation officer.

So he spent some time looking up Richard Allen's fishing licenses, checked out his name, address, height, weight. This is all the stuff that's used for these licenses and using the database. And he searched Richard Allen and something that stuck out to Dolan after he ran this on April 1st, 2017, so in April 1st, 2017, when he renewed his fishing license, Richard Allen changed his height from 5 foot 4 to 5 foot 6. And all of his other fishing licenses before that time had been 5 foot 4. But in April of 2017, April 1st, 2017, he changed his height from 54 to 5 5, 5.

so he grew two inches. And he sees and views these fishing licenses passed in presence, and he can request to see past ones, which he did. He also decreased his weight. So he increased his height and decreased his weight. And Dan Dillon explains that he thought it was strange to increase a height by two inches. And it was asked, you know, is Richard Allen here today, Dan Dullen? and he said, yes, he is here today.

And the prosecution then asked Dan Dillon to describe Richard Allen and what he was wearing. And they did that showing that he was describing Richard Allen there. So that is who he interviewed. That is who the driver's license is. So just confirming that this is who we're talking about. And then Rosie does the cross-exam, defense Rosie. So the defense cross-exam on Dan Dullen. And this is interesting.

Let me make sure I have this. I'm pulling up my friend's notes right now too. Okay. So cross-exam was pretty intense. And Rosie explains that Richard Allen contacted police himself. And he offered his phone number. He was willing to meet that day at the grocery store.

He was willing to meet up and he was willing to meet up on time. Didn't Richard Allen say he was on his way to the grocery store? grocery store, it's not uncommon for people to want to meet. It's not uncommon for people to want to just meet you. Just northwest of McDonald's, there are only two grocery stores in this town. It's a common place to meet, Rosie is explaining. And he told you that he was on the trail between 1.30 and 3.30. And then there's a lot of arguing and debating over how long Richard Allen was actually on the trail.

he says on trail he says he was on the trail between the times of 1.30 and 3.30. But Rosie is saying that doesn't imply when he actually arrived on the trail. Dan replies, Dan Dillon replies, I think that is what it means. And Rosie replies, well, in quotes, that's your interpretation. And Rosie then says, Richard Allen was doing nothing threatening. and he wasn't armed when you interviewed him. It was a five to ten minute conversation.

Am I right? And then there's an objection by the prosecution saying that Rosie is actually testifying and it's not okay. It was sustained. Dan then says, I didn't know Alan until that Richard Allen until that day. And I did not ever reach out to him again. Rosie says, you got his name wrong. Dan says, Dan Dillon says, no, I actually corrected his name. name. But I also am not the one who made the mistake. I don't know who did get his name wrong or why,

or if Richard Allen gave a different name. At that moment, so when Dan Dullen suggested that maybe Richard Allen gave a different name, Rosie got really upset. And he goes, are you implying that Richard Allen gave an alias? Dan says, I just don't know why the name was wrong. Rosie pushes again, are you saying that he might have created an alias? There's a major objection and they say asked and answered. Like, let's move on. And it is sustained by Judge Gull. And Rosie says,

I didn't, um, didn't ask what he was wearing. Rosie says, did you ask? Oh, Rosie says, did you ask?

Let me make sure I have this right. Okay. This was interesting. Okay, I got it. Rosie then said, you didn't even ask what he was wearing on the trail that day. Dan wrote, correct. And then Rosie says, and Richard Allen said he was parked at the Farm Bureau building. And he says, correct.

And then the record changed it to, oh, and then the record changed to the height and weight on the fishing license of April of 2017. Rosie said, but you do not know who changed it or who put his additional high, his two inches of height in the database. Dan Dillon says, that's true. I don't know. Rosie says, could his wife or somebody else purchase the fishing license and thus added two inches? then Dan stops and he says no you need the same credit card number the same license number and a bunch of other stuff to access license purchase and renewal rosy says well there are other times that he has said he was five foot six dan actually says no he had never has said that before i have a system and i have that shows that there was no change in his hype until april of 2017

it might change the history and the program that you're looking at, but he, but the, and the defense, um, really, and so, wait. And then the defense, who always likes to go to the February deposition said, but you originally said that you had no reason to believe that Richard Allen was trying to deceive anyone. Dan wrote, correct. And the defense said also, they called it a bullet and not. a casing. Oh, the defense, sorry, put a scratch in that. That was a note I put down for something else. That is not what was said right there. Dan was out there three days later at the crime scene, and it was actually Dan Dullen that was out of the crime scene three days after the crime

and saw the sticks. And it was Dan that noticed a deer skin at the same time. And so Rosie then said, wouldn't you believe then that people hunt out there? Then there's a major objection. And Rosie says, did you tell me in the deposition in February, it is not uncommon to find unspent rounds in wooded areas? Dan wrote, Dan said correct. Ian said, and isn't a Smith and Weston gone or bullet,

a common bullet? And it was never answered. And there was a redirect. But this is something I did not hear this. part. Well, I heard it and I couldn't get written down. So this is where I have my friend's notes. Okay, so it's right here. So after the question about there's an area of hunting, is it not uncommon to find unspent shells? The defense asks. And his answer is, well, probably from a hunting style gun like a 12 gauge gun. And so then Rosie repeats the question. And then there's an objection

by the prosecution and says, objection asked and answered and judge goal states, in quotes, if you are going to impeach him, impeach him properly, end quote. She said that to the defense about the objection.

Thus, the objection was sustained. And so then Rosie rephrases the question, is it common for hunters and fishers to carry handguns? Dan's answer, Dan Dillon's answer is yes. And is Smith and Wesson the most popular? The answer is yes. All right. And then there's a redirect by the prosecution,

and they just clarify a few things about the fishing license. McClellan asks, what credit card was used to purchase the fishing license? And Dandelon's answer is, Richard Allen's credit card was used to purchase the fishing license. He used his address, and he also purchased Kathy's, fishing license. And it was noted that Kathy Allen's head was nodding slightly at that time. Kathy does a lot of slight nodding and slight shaking of her head sometimes.

I don't know what she's thinking necessarily, just pointing that out. All right. Then we have a break. And by break, I just mean like a five-minute break where we all have to, a 15-minute break where we all have to go outside because it's like a potty break. But no one in the gallery really gets to go to the bathroom because we all have to get in line again because every seat is full and we might lose our seat because they start the line fresh. Every time there's a break and they kick us out of the courtroom, they start the line fresh.

So while everybody else gets a break and they get water in the bathroom, we're all standing in line again. So we all pick up our stuff and go stand in line. So then back on the stand, third witness for the day, and this is at 1140 after break. So again, they're whipping through witnesses. Usually they have about four. it's only 1140 and their other third. And it is Steve Mullen again. Again.

Let me pull up my notes back. So this is I think Steve Mullen. This is Steve Mullen's third time on the stand. Okay. And he is to refresh your memory and investigator with the Carroll County Attorney's Office. And he received a call from Tony Liggett. So again, Tony Liggett is now the sheriff. He's going to testify later in the day.

So Steve Mullen just testifies to receive. a call from Tony Liggett about paperwork of Lieutenant Dullen, we just heard from, about a Richard Allen. So this is in 2022. Doolen forwarded it and he reviewed the report to see if anybody had contacted Richard Allen since this information. In other words, since this information delivered by Richard Allen in February of 2017, February 16th, 2017. Steve Mullen decides to check if anybody else has added to this info or contacted him since then,

and he realizes that no one else ever has. They realized that he had two vehicles back then, a 2006 Ford 500 and a 2016 black Ford Focus. So Steve Mullen takes off and he goes to Hoosier General's store. he gets the Hoosier General Store surveillance video that they have. That's a very important part of this investigation. And he decides to check the surveillance to see if either of Richard Allen's cars are passing by and on the surveillance camera from February 13th. And then he also got Richard Allen's license plate numbers

from the parking lot of CVS, where his car was parked. The photos, so then Tony Liggett helped with this and he photographed some of the video that they found. And they say that

a Ford Focus is entering at 1 27, a Black Ford Focus is entering the area at 1.27 PM on February 13th. And again, Richard Allen noted that he was there from about 130 to 330. And they know a Ford Focus entering at 1.27 p.m. that same day. And they took photos from the security cameras and they're showing the jury.

Not us, but the jury. They're showing frame by frame second by second, this vehicle as it passes by the camera. It enters from the east and travels to the west. The Hoosier Harvest Store security camera pictures are put on exhibit. At first, they said, at first said, I'll skip that. So at 1.27 and 35 seconds time, you cannot see a VIN number or a license plate on this Ford Focus. And you cannot see a driver. So then the prosecution asks, well, what makes you believe that it was his Ford Focus?

He explains that it was the shape, the appearance, the tail light, the bumper, the rim, the rimper, the rim. rims and the wheels. And he again compared this car to the car that they saw parked in the CVS parking lot versus the Hoosier Harvest Store surveillance video. And you can see that his Ford Focus has see-through rims. You can actually see through his tire rims and see light on the other side of the Ford Focus's tire rims. They're like see-through.

And you can also see through the rims in this Hoosier Harvest, general store video. So the rims are very unique in this Ford Focus and they help them to identify that this Ford Focus is likely Richard Allen's. In Lieutenant Dullen's report, it says that Richard Allen arrived at 1.30 at this time and the video shows it's nearly 130 at 127. What makes you think the Farm Bureau building? Well, or what makes you think that it's like the old, you know, child protective services building. And he said, Steve Mullen said, well, if you look at the location, it's old. Then it explains that Tony Liggett stopped by Richard Allen's house with Steve. They requested, so this is again in

2022, this was October 13th, 2022. So four years ago, essentially, because it's October now. No, not four years ago. Two years ago is what I meant. Forgive me. Two years ago, they stopped by Richard Allen's house right after learning all this information. So Steve and Tony Liggett. And we requested that Richard Allen come with us. We explained to him that he was not under arrest.

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Start your free trial today at aura.com slash remove. Protect yourself now at aura.com slash remove. They went to the station and into an interview room, and they read Richard Allen, his Miranda the rights on this October 13th, 2022. And so then the prosecution asked him, what did you gather from this interview? He says, well, that day on February 13th, Mr. Allen says that he went to his mother's house. And he was off of work this day. It was a Monday on February 13th.

And his wife, Kathy, was working. So he left his moms at 11 a.m. And then Richard Allen went home. he grabbed a jacket and then he went to the trail. That's when he walked past the three girls. And he did not see anyone else. He said he parked at an old building. He said he arrived at noon.

So this is in 2022. Now he's stating that he arrived at the trail at noon and he left by 1 p.m. Richard Allen says in this 2022 interview that he walked to the Monon High High Bridge that day. He actually walked on the bridge. He walked at this time to go look at fish and he walked all the way to the first platform. Alan told us he started at this location and he has a pointer out and that he went to a trail and he walked towards the Monon High Bridge. The girls were walking, that he saw the three girls were walking away from the bridge at this time while he was walking towards the bridge.

So this would go with the testimony, again, of Brie and Rayleigh, who claimed that they saw bridge guy. I'll just remind you guys that. He estimated that he was on the trail for an hour. And I asked him, what made him report, self-report? And Richard Allen said that he was wearing a black or blue Carhart jacket, a hat, blue jeans and army style boots. Richard Allen said he was wearing army style boots, which is interesting to me too. I'll just point out that army style boots would make him look taller. The three girls he

saw, he suspected were older girls that were babysitting younger, a younger girl. Or he saw a older girl who maybe was babysitting younger girls. So remember that it was breed, and Rayleigh that were 16 and they were with Rayleigh's little sisters who were both 12. Again, there were four of them, I admit, not three, but they claimed they saw a bridge guy

who didn't smile at them and now Richard Allen is claiming that he walked past three girls around the same age range and they were going the directions the witnesses claim they were going. Okay, this is interesting. At this interview, Mullins asked, Steve Mullin asked if he was bridge guy, if Richard Allen was bridge guy.

And they just said, look, we need to work this out. Are you bridge guy? And Richard Allen's response was, in quotes, if the photograph was taken with the girl's camera, there is no way that it was him. end quote. I'd have said that was very interesting. That was very compelling to me in court. I'm just going to throw that out there. If I was not a person on camera and someone asked me, I would simply say no.

He's essentially saying, look, if bridge guy is the person that Abby and Libby caught on camera, there's no way it was him. If it was taken with the girl's camera, there's no way it was him. Then Steve Mullen explains that he and Tony Liggett then dropped Richard Allen back off at his house and worked on search warrants for the next day at Richard Allen's home. That's interesting, right? Doodun, doom. They're going fast on this. They're going really fast.

October 13th, 2022. He said his car, his Ford Focus was purchased in 2016, brand new by Richard Allen, again pointing out that Richard Allen did have this 2016 car in 2017. And they looked it up and he is the only one that has ever owned this car. There had been no other previous owner. And this interview was recorded on videotape, which honestly, this was sort of driving me crazy in court. I kept going, why don't they play it? Let's see this because we get more into it.

The next witness is all about this videotape and all about this recorded interview. And it seems like the defense is seen it. The prosecution has seen it. The jurors have a lot of questions about it, but nobody's showing it in court. I don't know if it's going to come in later or if neither the defense or prosecution wants to show it. It's interesting. But a lot of talk of this interview today and no one's saying, oh, yeah, why don't we show this interview now on October 13th, 2022? So on cross-exam happens.

And after lunch, cross-exam happened and with Steve Mullen. And the defense pretty much says, you are so desperate to make this Richard Allen. You are so desperate to make this Richard Allen's vehicle that you saw on this surveillance tape. But in the interview that you did on October 13th, 2022, does Richard Allen ever claim that he went westbound on this street like this car was going. Steve Mullen, uh, Steve Mullen is asked to refresh his memory because Steve says, yeah, he said that. They asked him to refresh his memory and they give him a transcript of this

interview. And Steve Mullen is looking at this transcript for a couple of minutes. It's silent for a long time. I appreciate he's taking his time reading it. And oddly, I noticed that Richard Allen sort of had a smirk at this moment. And Baldwin, who's doing the cross exam, is actually, um, sipping a drink and shaking his head while Steve Mullen just sits there and reads this transcript. Almost like they know that like Richard Allen never said he was going westbound in this interview. So Baldwin continues to look as just this long silence. And Baldwin is asked and Baldwin reminds him, I am asking you to find where it is because you testified under oath before lunch that Richard Allen told you that he was going westbound.

And again, there is a lot of silence. and Mullins is going through many pages and then all of a sudden you hear Mullins say, here we go, page 45. And he claims here that Richard Allen said he possibly was going west. He possibly was, Richard Allen says, going west. Baldwin ignores what Mullen just states.

And Baldwin says, but he also said that he took his regular route home, which would be eastbound. Then there's a giant objection. and the prosecution is saying the defense is inserting his own opinions and the judge sustains it. Steve Mullins is taking time to read more of the October 13th, 2022 interview. Baldwin starts by saying, you said and he said in all of a sudden the sidebar is called or requested by the prosecution. We sit there for a while.

Baldwin comes back out to continue cross-exam with Steve Mullins. and he says that Richard Allen told you again that he took his route, which is 300 north eastbound. Mullins then replies, but Richard Allen also said he possibly took the westbound way, which is where we would see him on surveillance camera. Baldwin pushes the direction. And then there's another objection,

and it's claiming that Baldwin is using facts that are in, accurate. Baldwin says in the video that Richard Allen pointed in video that he was going eastbound. Mullin says yes. And Baldwin says, but you said, was there ever an occasion where you went another way? And Mullin says, yes, I did. Baldwin begins to say why Mullins asked this question. There's an objection. And the objection is that Baldwin is continuing to assert his opinion and that it just isn't true and it's sustained. Baldwin ultimately He told you Baldwin said ultimately though

Richard Allen told you When he went to Monon High Bridge He went this way Look at page 37 of the transcript And Mullen says I do not interpret this The way you are interpreting it Back to Baldwin

Baldwin says But you said Richard Allen Took a scenic route When he went that way Mullen said yes Baldwin says can you look at the transcript And I wrote dude i just wanted this is where i was like i just want to see the video like all this arguing like

can we just watch the video why are they not showing the video will we ever see the video to be determined to be continued why can't they just show us the video i'm asking richard allen was asked richard allen was asked is that you and he responded oh as far as the bridge guy goes and he responded if that was taken by the girls no and then betsy blair yesterday's witness. She's another one that claims that she saw bridge guy on the bridge, if you remember. She walked every day on the bridge. She had a Fitbit to correlate that she was there. And she's another witness that claims that she saw bridge guy on the bridge. So Betsy Blair comes up and she claims that she saw a mercury driving around. And that's the end of cross exam. There's no redirect. And then

there's jury questions. Um, uh, and one of the juries asks, When you were with Alan, when he said, I didn't remember, were you with Alan when he said that he didn't remember which way he took to the trail? And Baldwin asks, would recorded video interview show this? And Mullen says yes. Or Mullen says yes, he was there. And then Baldwin inserts and says, would the recorded video show this? And Mullen says yes. Another jury asks, juror asks, did you?

look to see if the other video was on the Hoosier Harvest camera. In other words, it's his 2006 Ford. And Mullen says, yes, we did look and it was not there, just the Ford Focus. And the jury asks, well, did you, a juror asked, I don't want to keep saying a jury, a juror asks, did you see how many similar cars Ford focuses were registered to Delphi residents? Mullins says no, he did not check how many other Fort Forgerphuses were registered to Delphi residents and now there is a new witness.

Boom, we're just going through him. Tony Liggett. He is now the Carroll County Sheriff. He was not the Carroll County Sheriff at the time of the crimes. Excuse me, this is a long live. He was a detective back in 2017. And he participated in depth in the investigation. And it was Kathy Schenck who brought him a tip lead to him in 2022 that had to do with Richard Allen.

So McClellan is the prosecutor doing the questioning. Once again, it was always McClellan today. And so he asks Tony Liggett that once he had an opportunity to read this tip lead in 2022 about Richard Allen, it really got Sheriff Liggott's attention because they believed that the man that the three girls saw

again and the three girls would be Rayleigh, Free and Anna was bridge guy. They believe this and and Tony Ligott had not been aware of this tip lead that there was this gentleman who self-reported that he was on

the bridge at the same time and that he saw three girls as well. And it's asked, were you aware of the photographs taken by the three girls? And Tony Liggott says, yes, I was. The last pick the girls took, when is the timestamp? Because I remember Rayleigh brought her camera that day, a Nikon, and then Bree was taking cell phone pictures.

The last time stamp on a photograph that the girls took was at 1.26 p.m. that would be the same time that Richard Allen is driving on the Hoosier Harvest surveillance video. And so McClellan asked why this is important. And that's when he explains. He says, well, right after this photo was taken, this is when the girls say they saw a man. Tony Liggett says that the girls say they saw a man after they took a photo on a bench near the Freedom Bridge. Again, the Freedom Bridge is close to the entrance. And then they bring up Betsy Blair's Fitbit data.

And they said her FitBet data showed that there was a man at 146 p.m. that Betsy Blair saw a man on the Monon Highbridge at 146 p.m. And Sarah saw a man on the side of the road that she claimed was muddy and bloody at 3.57 p.m. walking towards Delphi. So all of these witnesses, they're claiming correlate with bridge guy and would correlate with the time Richard Allen is seen walking the trail and or on the bridge. Again, Richard Allen even claims he went to the bridge and he stood on the first platform. So then they explained that there was a phone found under Abby and Tony Liggett saw the video of a man called Bridge Guy, that he dubbed Bridge.

guy on this video. And then Tony Liggett saw a stabilized version, an enhanced video of this 43-second video from Libby's phone. And at one point on this stabilized enhanced video, it pauses and zooms in on bridge guy. And Tony Liggett had examined this video before court even today. He'd examined it so many times, including today before court. The state moves to submit this video. So this was an interesting moment in court to see an enhanced video that's stabilized. So we all watched the video. I agree. It was fascinating.

It froze on Bridge Guy and zoomed in on Bridge Guy and it stabilized. So even though it was a very shaky video going all over the place, you could really understand what was going on with Abby and Libby at that moment. It was really interesting to see. And at this, while the video is being watched, I do look over at Kathy Allen and I see that she is shaking her head slightly as it's played. She mouths something to her neighbor, who is her friend. I've met her. She's a very kind woman.

She mouthed something to her neighbor. And I don't know what it was said. And then McClellan asks, Tony Liggett, have you formed an opinion? on what is being said on this video. And Tony Liggett believes that he knows exactly what is said on the video. And this is, this is interesting. So here is the entire transcript from the bridge guy video.

It starts with Abby. It's so sad to hear and understand exactly what they're saying. It starts with Abby saying, is he right here? and then you hear Abby saying, don't leave me up here. Libby says, see, there's a path. And then is Libby again, but her voice has changed. And she says, that's a gun.

That's be a gun. That be a gun. That's what she says. So let me start it over. Abby says, is he right here? And then Abby states, don't leave. me up here. Libby says, see, there's a path. And then Libby's voice changes and she says, that be a gun. And then Abby states, there is no path here. And then a man states down the hill.

Right. So again, Abby says, is he right here? And she follows up by, don't leave me up here. Libby states, see, there's a path. And then Libby's voice. changes and says, that be a gun. And then Abby says, there's no path here. And then a man says down the hill. They learned that, so through the investigation, Tony Liggett learned that Richard Allen had a handgun permit. And then it's asked by the prosecution, what in the video made you think that this was Richard Allen? Oh, that this was Richard Allen. Oh, that this This was Richard Allen's vehicle. And Tony Liggett explains that you could see the daylight through the wheel rims.

This is a very unique part of Richard Allen's car, and it seemed to be the same rims on the car on the Hoosier's surveillance video. They then went to his house again and asked him to come with us. Again, this is the October 13th, 2022 interview. Tony Liggett was there, so he's now relaying his version of this interview. He admitted to us that he was on the trail at this very time. And although he changed his time, he had originally stated in 2017, he was there from 130 to 330. During this interview, he stated it was from 12 to 130.

He said he had a blue or black Carhart jacket on while he was on the trail and that he went home before he went on the trail to get a skull cap. He said he only saw the. three girls on the trail and no one else. He said he went to see his mom that morning. He stated he went to the bridge. That's his interesting. Not only is Richard Allen saying he went to the trail at that time.

And this is his alibi guys. Like if alibis are important, this is Richard Allen's alibi at the time of the murders, which is or near the time of the murders, which is that he was on the Monon Highbridge trail. And then he stated that he actually went on. on the bridge. But he only went to the first platform to look at fish. Like, whoa.

And remember, Betsy Blair believes that she saw Abby and Libby, that she saw, Betsy Blair claims that she saw a man on the bridge. And then as she kept walking, she believed that she saw Abby and Libby heading towards the bridge after she saw the man on the bridge. That's interesting. He was in his garage,

Richard Allen was in his garage when he told a story of hearing something and that he grabbed his gun and then he learned it was police. And that's how Tony Liggett and Steve Mullen learned that Richard Allen had guns. They searched his home the next day after that interview. And they did find a six-hour handgun 40 caliber. It was the same caliber of bullet found between the bodies of Libby and Abby. They found a 40 caliber Winchester round in a keepsake box. This keepsake box also called a Hope box at different times during the testimony of Tony Liggett had photographs of Richard Allen and a letter.

And it was on a dresser in the master bedroom. And this was the only round found in this box. So it was in this keepsake box, this round. and they then found during the search a blue Carhart jacket in the main entry closet. They sent all of this information to labs because they could compare the bullet at the scene to Richard Allen's gun and they sent the gun in too. After they were at his house, they ran an ATF trace on guns that gives the owner registration info. in the then return to Richard Allen's and oh and and this this ATF trace

returned the gun to Richard Allen and showed he was the only owner ever of this gun to the only owner now there's a cross-exam by Rosie and on February 13th there's search parties hold on pause Okay, so the cross-exam of Rosie, it starts with Rosie just sort of setting the stage and saying, look, on February 13th, there were search parties at all of these different areas. There were so much law enforcement looking for these girls, so many officers. The search expanded and soon dozens of people were out there.

And Tony Ligate responds, yes, there were a lot of people out there. Yes. Rosie says, this search went on until midnight, right? and Tony Liggott says correct. Rosie says, let's talk about the crime scene for a moment. Rosie says, were you aware that there were leaks about what happened at the crime scene? Tony Ligott says yes. Rosie says, but you didn't issue a gag order on law enforcement at all? Tony Liggett says, no, I would not have been able to do that. I had just become a detective in 2016. Again, he was not a sheriff back then. He's a sheriff now.

But law enforcement were requested to not talk about the case. Rosie says, well, let's talk about Betsy Blair. Were you aware what Blair had said about what she saw? Tony Liggett says, correct, I was aware. And a search warrant for Richard Allen's house, an affidavit where you share that contains facts was done. And Rosie says, in the timeline of this, do you swear on the things that you saw? Tony Liggott says yes And

Rosie asked When was the last time you Saw it Let me double check this This is a little confusing now Let me double check this It's like I didn't finish Let me check

My friends Where if Tony Ligit We're on Okay here we go Let me just double check this Forgive me guys This is actually Yeah another important part

This was interesting So during cross-exam, the other thing they said is, is there a saying that you made an arrest of Richard Allen to influence an election for sheriff? Straight up asked Tony Ligott. That's quite the theory, right? It's interesting. And Tony Lickett's answer is, this had nothing to do with me. It had to do with two little girls. Good answer.

And then they said, let's talk about crime scene integrity. Are you aware of the various leaks of info? Yes, we already talked about this. Just going over it again. And you never issued a gag order with police. He wouldn't have been able to do that. And then there's a question by Rosie, but sticks were not covering the girls. And but yet nobody ever found them that evening.

And then they said, let's talk about Bledsy Blair, Betsy Blair, Rayleigh and Bree. You decided to seek a search warrant in 2020. He says correct. Tony, look, it says correct. A part of your warrant focused on a timeline. And your timeline was based on witness statements. See, this is what I missed. I knew I needed these other notes.

So part of the timeline was based on witness statements. And one of the witnesses was Bree Wilbur. And you never offered up any info about him being tall and mass. right? So again, some shade thrown at Richard Allen because Bree Wilbur said that the man she saw was muscular. So you can't really believe Brie Wilbert saw Richard Allen, right? And he says, so Tony Liggett says that he simply cannot recall. And then there's a question, did you report that Bree said that the man she saw was muscular? And there's an objection. And he referred. And he referred. And he said, Roses, Rosie refraises the question, you're aware that Ms. Carba, Sarah, Sarah, who saw muddy and bloody, described a guy looking muddy and bloody walking west on 300 north. And he says, yes, between the cemetery and the Mears farm entrance. And Rosie asked, did you ever ask if there was a camera in the back? Answer, no. And so the question, so then Rosie says, so there's a person

walking, who should have never been seen walking on who should have been seen walking on the Hoosier Harvest video in these, any states, yeah. So you didn't see anyone? Is it correct? Didn't see anyone. Then there are only three possibilities then, right? Maybe they walked here or here or here. And there were people at the mirror's entrance when Sarah passed, correct? Did you send anyone to search 300 North to look for discarded clothing? No, Tony Liggett did not. Did you ever search open fields by Mears entrance? No, he never did. Like even after the crime. And then Tony Liggett explained that I had no part in indicating any searches. But there were people at the Mears farm exit entrance. Why did you not do a search there? You are aware of Sarah's inconsistency.

statements, aren't you? And Tony Liggott says, is it possible that you're, is it possible that you're wrong, that you may have conflated it? And he asked, wait, you're saying that I, I might be wrong that I created this? He's like, yeah, is it possible that Sarah didn't see anyone? And Tony Lick's response was no. Well, don't you find her three week delay before share? and she saw someone odd?

He says, no. Did you know about the three week delay? He says no. Did you know that she was panicking? No. And then, oh, his response is, but it took her three weeks. And Tony Liggott says, the girls were murdered. And Sarah felt she saw the murderer.

And that's when Rosie says, but she didn't say bloody. And Tony Liggett says, she said muddy and bloody. and I read it in the report. Tony Liggott says, he said, and he, meaning Richard Allen, said he was on the trail at 1.30, and this Ford Focus was there at that time. Rosie says, was that the time when the FBI was no longer involved? Tony Liggett says, no, if I need. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day.

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theft insurance, all backed by 24-7 U.S.-based fraud support. Other companies might sell just credit monitoring or just a VPN. Ora gives you all of it, together, at the same price competitors charge for just one service. Start your free trial today atora.com slash remove. Protect yourself now atora.com slash remove. It's something I could always call the FBI. Rosie says, well, the first interview with law enforcement was on February 17th, and it was a more formal interview five years later.

in October of 2022. Why did you not follow up? But for five years and Tony Liggott says his information got lost. And Rosie says, well, someone cleared him. It's true. Like I want to say too, what the hell law enforcement? So Rosie is saying, but somebody cleared him. And Tony Liggett says, someone wrote, it's true, in quotes, lead clear, end quote.

Rosie says, someone on your team. wrote that. They cleared Richard Allen. And Tony Liggott says, actually, I believe it was a dispatcher that may have done that. Somebody cleared that lead and it should not have been cleared. It fell through the cracks, I admit. Rosie says, well, it's harder to investigate five years later, isn't it? Tony Liggett says, yes, it is. And then Rosie says, so you are asking Richard Allen to remember things five years ago? Tony Liggott says yes Rosie says even for his wife Kathy Allen it would be hard for her to recall details

like even five years ago I see I look over at Kathy Allen she's nodding like yeah she agrees it would be very difficult Tony Liggott says correct Rosie says well you're trying to seek out physical evidence having to seek it out and the gun existed in 2017

correct Tony Liggott says correct he owned it in 2017 Rosie says but you don't know what condition it was in, right? Tony Liggett says, not many area of, oh, that's not my area of expertise. Do you believe that Richard Allen acted alone? Tony Liggett says, yes. And Rosie says, have you always, have you always believed that Richard Allen acted alone? and there is actually a pause by Tony Liggott's here. He pauses for quite a moment, which was interesting to me.

And then he says, yes. And then Rosie says, really, prior to Richard Allen or knowing about Richard Allen, did you believe that somebody acted alone? Then Tony Liggott says, I was open to anything. Rosie says, well, there's always an idea that there could have been another person on the video. saying down the hill. Tony Liggott says, that's a stretch. Rosie says, you don't see his mouth say it.

Could he could, it could be a person next to him. Tony Liggott says if there was another person next to him saying down the hill, I believe Libby and Abby would have captured it on the video. I loved that answer. I'm going to pause and say, I love that answer. It gave me the chills and it gave me the chills reading it. Tony Liggott is saying right there that Abby and Libby saved the day with this powerful evidence and that he is essentially saying right here in my opinion that they captured this on purpose.

Libby knew exactly what she was doing. And if there was another man to the side, he believes that Abby and Libby would have absolutely captured it. Rosie says, but is it possible there could be another person? Tony Liggott starts to actually explain or tries to explain how much he disagrees with Rosie on this, that there could be another person and he's completely cut off. Rosie just jumps to, there is no digital evidence of Richard Allen being connected on Libby's phone. Tony Liggett says, well, that's the interesting part.

Richard Allen claims he was on his phone on the trail, but there is no evidence of that. either. I thought that was, that was, that was, that was, that was, that was, that was, that was, that was, that was, that was, that was, too-shay. So after Rosie says, again, that there's no digital evidence of Richard Allen being connected on Libby's phone, Tony Liggott's response was, well, that's interesting part. Richard Allen claims he was on his phone on the trail, but there is no evidence of that either. Rosie says, the man, Richard Allen, came to law enforcement a couple days after the crimes shortly after you after you requested help from the couple. Tony Licket says,

I can't tell you why he did that. Side note, I think I can. He came, well, I don't know. Let's just keep reading. Let's just keep reading. I'll say something later. Rosie says, that's not what I'm asking. But Richard Allen willingly reported this.

You testified earlier. You found it interesting also, by the way, that he backed his car up in the CVS parking lot. Tony Liggott said, yes, I found it interesting. Rosie says, but there are only two ways to park a car. There's a 50% chance of backing it in, no? Tony Liggott says, yes. And Rosie says, so why is this pertinent?

You testify to this. And then the prosecution is asked to approach, so Tony Liggott never, Sheriff Liggett never answers that question. I wrote down some thoughts at this moment. so I'll just share him. I wasn't going to share him. I wrote him, but I'm going to share him. My thoughts.

Not only was Richard Allen at the trail, he admits to being on the bridge, too, the exact time, essentially, as the girls. So, I mean, one of the biggest things in a case, in a crime case, is understanding the alibi. And literally, Richard Allen places himself not just on the trail but visiting the bridge

around the same time that the girls film bridge guy like that's a fact I'm just saying facts and I just it's not a good look his alibi is being so Richard Allen's alibi

is being essentially where Abby and Libby were when they filmed bridge guy just something to think about also we know that Betsy sees a man on the bridge on the first platform, which is where Richard Allen claims he was that he went to the first platform to watch the fish. And then Betsy claims that she sees Abby and Libby after she says Richard out, or sorry, after she says bridge guy, or after she sees a guy, a guy on the bridge, on the first platform, then Betsy claims that she believes she saw Abby and

Libby after walking towards the bridge. And then Richard Allen, again, claims he sees three girls, which investigators believe would be Bree and Rayleigh. And that's interesting to me, too, I have to say, I'm just like putting the puzzle pieces together. So if the girl saw a man that was, you know, if the girl saw. a man and Richard Allen is claiming that he saw girls

that matched their description then the girls didn't necessarily see bridge guy they saw Richard Allen who may or may not be bridge guy right but I feel like now it's like no the girls who claim they thought they saw bridge guy technically they saw Richard Allen

because Richard Allen is claiming they saw he saw them right around that time right so it does make things interesting all of a sudden Ray Lee and Brie testified to seeing who they believed was bridge guy, but now Richard Allen is saying he saw these girls or describes them as being these girls.

So then technically they saw Richard Allen. I don't know. Just this is how my brain works. That was a Lauren moment. I'm just saying. Yeah, if Richard saw the girls, this is about the girls seeing Richard, not about them seeing Bridge Guy.

That's my point. And the prosecution states if Richard Allen's memory is better. Oh, so the prosecution comes back with a redirect. And they say to Sheriff Liggett, look, if Richard Allen's memory is better around the time of the crimes as opposed to five years later, then wouldn't it be most likely that he was actually on the trail and on the bridge between 1.30 and 3.30, like he originally said. not the new time. He said five years later. And Tony Liggett said, yes, absolutely. And he actually said, well,

Richard Allen himself admitted his memory was better. Earlier on to me, Sheriff Liggett says. And then there's a recross. And Rosie says, but Betsy, Betsy Blair claims that the man she saw on the bridge was youthful.

And Tony Liggett says to her perspective. And it is true. Betsy was an older woman. And then Rosie says, but she said 20s or 30s. To which Tony Liggett says, no, Sarah said 20s to 30s.

And then Rosie says, well, we'll let the jury decide. That was an interesting moment, right? And then Tony Liggott says, well, no, you asked. So let me just read that one again. That was a really interesting exchange. So on cross-exam, Rosie, the defense attorney is saying to sheriff Tony Liggott's, Betsy said she saw someone youthful on the bridge, Betsy Blair.

And Tony Liggott says, well, that's her perspective. And then Rosie tries to say she saw someone in, she said they may have been in his 20s or 30s. And she, and Tony Liggott says, no, that's what's. Sarah said someone in possibly 20s or 30s. And then, and then Rosie says, well, we'll just let the jury decide that. And Tony Lucas is like, well, no, you asked me. So I needed to clarify. No, we're not going to let the jury decide.

It's really interesting. After that, oddly, there were no jury questions. All right. And now we're at the state trooper of Indiana, Dave Bito. first time I'd ever heard from Dave Bito. Okay. How's everyone doing? Let me just look and make sure.

Okay. Thanks, KCL. And thanks for being here. To all my mods. Thank you for being here. All right. Okay, state trooper of Indiana, Dave R. Bito. D.B.

Dave Bito. He's a detective with the Indiana State Police. He goes all over his background. I'm going to skip that and get to the good stuff. But he's legit. detective. On October 13th, 2022, he helped with the search warrant of Richard Allen's house. And this is where he helped. Sorry, I just need a bit of water one second. Okay. All right. Okay. On October 13th, Dave Bito participated in the search warrant of Richard Allen. He helped search the house.

He specifically helped search the master bedroom, the closet, the garage, the spare bedroom, and the kitchen. there were photographs taken going through everything there were photos taken during the search warrant of the house photos are now being put on the big screen for the whole courtroom to see love it when that happens so I can see so first they show the outside of the house and they show the outside of the house multiple times and I want to say it's a nice looking home it's just like it's just an american home there's nothing creepy about it nothing dirty about it it just looks like a very nice, it looks like an American family home. So they have a couple of pictures of the outside of the house. And then they have a photo of a 2016 Ford Focus in the garage.

And you can clearly see these see through rims. It is unique. You don't often see like tires that you can see through and see daylight through. And that's exactly what they are. And they take a picture showing the light between them. There are photographs taken in the garage. And number six, inside the garage, there are, there is a workbench and there are six knives. There's actually numerous knives and box cutters.

And let me just share, these are massive knives. Like, I saw them and I was like, whoa, those are big. Like, just, you know, I don't, I don't know about knives. I'm not a knife girl. I see cooking knives. This was bigger than any kitchen knife I've ever seen. Any cooking knife, like this is a like a hunting knife and there were six of them. And in addition to the six knives, there were, I couldn't count how many box cutters,

but it was reported multiple box cutters. So knives and box cutters. Then they showed a big giant plastic bag with a ton of electronics and a ton of chargers for different devices. And then number nine, they showed all of the phones that he had in his office. And there were so many guys. I counted 15 and my neighbor wrote down, she counted two. And we checked five minutes later noting that we both counted and we both counted 15. So I feel pretty confident about that number.

15 old cell phones. There were flip phones. There were smartphones. phones. There were phones from like, it was like almost like he collected phones. That is interesting because they said there were all these phones. There are so many. I counted 15 as in my neighbor. And then in quotes, Beto says there was only one phone. We did not recover. And it was a phone from 2017. Then there's an objection from the defense. And, uh, And so then Bito continues sharing all of these phones were from the office,

but they were also more phones found later. And these were flip phones, every kind of phone, except for a phone from 2017 that Richard Allen claims he was on while walking the trail. Number 10. More knives. Multiple knives. found in the master bedroom in the master bedroom like more they weren't as big as the ones in the garage but they were big and i counted 15 of them so so he had six knives in the garage and 15

knives in the master bedroom and then uh they showed a picture of richard allen's closet his gun case and his shoes and they showed a picture of his closet And then in 13, oh, sorry, in 12, they showed a photo of a closet, like a hallway closet. And then they shot a photograph of a Carhart jacket similar to what Richard Allen claims he was wearing that day. And admittedly, I just have to say, it looks very similar to what bridge guy was wearing to. And again, it's Richard Allen stating he was wearing this that day. no one else but Richard Allen. Richard Allen is claiming he wore this Carhart jacket that day and then they take a picture

of a Carhart jacket that he owns and it looks awfully similar to the Carhart jacket or I don't whatever, to the day jacket the bridge guy's wearing. Just saying the eyes of the courtroom telling you what I saw. So I take a picture of that. They take a picture of the back of the jacket as well. And then they, there's a photograph of a Sig. firearm gun in Richard Allen's nightstand. It was, uh, the magazine was loaded in the photograph and it sat in Richard

Allen's nightstand. And then they had a photo that showed another angle, angle of the SIG firearm gun. And then they showed another picture plus ammunition, um, as well. And then they showed a 40 caliber blazer firearm. arm with 40 caliber Smith and Wesson. Guys, if I'm, if you guys are like a bunch of like really knowledgeable gun owners and you're, I'm and I'm not getting this right, forgive me, I'll look at, um, chat, but this is what I

wrote down. People in my lives are into guns, but I'm not. So I have not learned a lot about them, but I'm writing down what I hear. Then they, and they took a photograph of, a memory or keepsake box in the master bedroom. And they, and in this keepsake box, this is what it is. So they, they call it a keepsake box and they've called it a hope box. So two different ways of referring to it. Inside this hope keepsake box, it looks to be Richard Allen's. He has a graduation card, his graduation card. He has his previous employment. He has a note from his

mother and he then has a Smith and Wesson round found in the box 40 caliber. Just one. Just one in this little hope box sitting in his master bedroom. A Smith and Wesson round found in the box 40 caliber. And then they showed other photographs of this round. It showed the back of the Smith and Wesson 40 caliber. And then there is a photograph. Then there are photos that Bito took from the spare bedroom.

He didn't take photographs. He took photographs. As in like there were photographs in the spare bedroom that he collected. Bito collected. And he took a lot of, and the photos from the spare bedroom is they were a ton of photos of the Monon High Bridge that he collected. They were left in the spare bedroom. The earliest ones are from. 2008 and there were also pictures from 2016. There was also a photo that was labeled Ricky posing by a

tree. I assume that's Richard. And then there's a picture of Richard Allen fishing in Deer Creek. Deer Creek is the creek where the Monon Highbridge goes over. And then there is a picture of Richard Allen on the Monon Highbridge Trail. And these photos were from February. 16th, March 2016, and April 2016. So then there is Cross with the defense and Oge, the female defense attorney, who I personally think does a great job. She took over for a cross with Beto. And she said, isn't it important to be professional on your job?

And Dave Beito says, yes, ma'am. He's very polite. yes ma'am no ma'am and ojeet says and you supervise these photographs didn't you d'bito explains that actually there were many detectives and there were many photos and he was not the one in charge of this search warrant ojay says well it wouldn't be unusual to hold a piece of evidence to photograph it would it um Dave beto is saying I don't think so he's I think a little confused and I kind of see where Oge is going with this she's trying to get to say that yeah, he should photograph things holding it up because it would show that

the crime scene wasn't handled well. If she can get Dave Bito on record saying, yeah, like this is completely normal. You should photograph while holding it in your bare hands every place. He doesn't quite fall for it though. So here we go. Oge says, isn't it normal for everyone in Delphi to go to these trails? Isn't this just super common? I mean, Raleigh went.

Betsy went frequently, Brie Wilber went all the time. And Dave Bida just says, okay. And Ogey says, don't just a lot of locals go to the Monon High Bridge. It's not that unusual. And Dave Bito says, actually, I've met some people who have lived in Delphi their whole life and they don't know about the trails, yet other people go every day. So Dave Bito is not giving her the answer she wants.

She asks now about the photographs that he collected. Dave Bito present. Oh, Dave Bito then explains. She says, weren't you present during the interview on October 13th, 2020? And Dave Bito explains that he was not present in the interview room, but he actually watched the interview of Richard Allen from another room while watching it on video on October 13th, 2020. And OJ says, well, doesn't Richard Allen love to fish? So it would not be uncommon, that uncommon for him to have all of these knives to fish.

Dave Bader responds, are you saying to spear fish? That was funny. OJay says, no, to cut, to filet fish. Dave Bito says, okay, sure. OJ says, it's not unusual people for people to save and recycle their own phones, is it? Dave Beto says, I am not so sure. Ogey says, well, it is not unusual to have a sigs sour gun, is it? Dave Beto says, can't say.

O'J says, well, it's not unusual to have a Carhart jacket like that, is it? Dave Beto says, I can't say. O'J says, did you send the Carhart jacket to get tested? De Beito says, yes, it was sent to a lap. And OJ says, well, is there anything in the car or his jacket connected to Abby or Libby's murder. Dave Bito says, I don't believe so. OJ says, is there anything tested inside the vehicle in 2016 of the Ford Focus that can be linked to the murders? Dave Bito says, no. O'J says, and what about the knives? Anything? Dave Bita says, no. O'J says, there is clothing missing from the crime scene.

This is interesting. This was a good moment for the defense. There is clothing, in my opinion. that is missing from the crime scene, specifically underwear and a sock. Dave Beattos says, yes, I believe so. That clothing was never recovered. So Ege says, did they ever find those two articles of clothing? Dave Beattos says, no, they didn't. And then O'J says, like, you guys looked everywhere for that clothing. You guys were like digging in the backyard trying to figure out if you could find that clothing.

Did you ever find that clothing with a search warrant? No. They never found that. that clothing. And then OJ says, Sarah gave a statement and it could help your testimony. Dave Beto says, I believe so. OJay says, she said she saw a man that was covered in blood. Dave Bito says, yeah, I believe so.

OJ says, so did you find a man covered in blood? Oh, did you find a man's blood at the crime scene? Dave Bito says, I don't know. And there are no jury, juror questions. no jury questions. I just want to look one more thing, though, because I actually believe there were three photos of knives. There was garage knives.

There was inside knives, and then there were even more. So let me just double check because I think I missed something. Because I remember, okay, here are the garage knives. I thought there were three separate places where there were knives in this house. There was, yep, here it is. Okay, so let's let me clarify. I skipped number seven. Inside the garage, there's a workbench with numerous knives and box cutters.

In the knives, again, all I can say, without knowing about knife, they were massive. I wrote down huge knives. Then there is a basket in the kitchen as you walk in from the garage and between the fridge and the stove is a basket. And in this basket are additional knives and box cutters. Quite a lot of knives. Pocket knives, every kind of knife. Just like knives. That's weird.

and then you go to the master bedroom and there are even more knives and they counted 15. What does that mean? I don't know, except for maybe Richard Allen really likes knives and he's got plenty. But I just knew that there were at least three places where there were a bunch of knives and I wanted to get that right. So the next witness is Jerry Holman. He's been with Idaho State Police or I say Idaho State Police because I just see ISP and I was a reporter in Idaho for like a long time for like five years in all these different areas of Idaho. So whenever I see ISP, instead of saying Indiana State Police, I say Idaho State Police,

I probably just need to start writing Indiana State Police out so I don't say that. So forgive me if I ever say that. Indiana State Police. So Jerry Holman has been with the Indiana State Police for 3.5 years, Lieutenant Area Commander, he covers all crimes in Area 1. he supervised search of Richard Allen's house. He did a walkthrough. He photographed the house.

He spoke to Richard Allen who told him, oh, so, okay, this is important. Jerry Holman, as he photographed the house and Richard Allen was there, he told Richard Allen that they would do whatever they could to not damage anything while searching the house, and that something used to be unlocked, he requested Richard Allen to unlock it for them. and in quotes, Jerry Holman says that Richard Allen replied, in quote,

it doesn't matter. It's over. End quote. Jerry Holman claims that that was Richard Allen's response to him saying that. Then Jerry Holman explains that during the search,

Kathy Allen left to go use the restroom at her place of employment while the search was going on because she wasn't allowed inside. and and he and Richard Allen didn't know where Kathy had gone and so he asked Jerry Holman

if Kathy had been detained and Jerry Holman said allegedly said to or testified of saying to Richard I said no I was willing to take him to Kathy and I said do you want me to take you to Kathy she hasn't been detained

and he said, in quotes, it doesn't matter. It's over. Jerry Holman removed a firearm from a box, and he collected guns from Richard Allen's house. Lieutenant Holman opened the box, the Hope box, I believe. And each time the box opens, the law enforcement opens and, oh, no, this is what it is.

Lieutenant Holman opens a box on the stand. Excuse me. There was an evidence box on the stand of a gun that was collected from Richard Allen's house. And it's sealed. And Holman explains, Lieutenant Holman explains that each time the box is opened, the law enforcement opens it and initials have to be written down on who opened it so that there's this solid chain of custody. And then once opened the box,

The evidence box is resealed. And he explained that the last person to ever open it was Jerry Holman, Lieutenant Holman, this guy. And he's about to open it now. And he's only opened it a couple of times since collecting the gun. So the first thing Jerry Holman does once he opens, the box is make sure the gun is empty and shows the empty magazine to the jury and shows that it's empty. He's also wearing gloves while he is handling this gun. There is a cross by Baldwin. And during this cross exam by Baldwin, the defense, he asserts Richard Allen's innocence.

Oh, oh, no, excuse me. During the cross by Baldwin, Baldwin says to Lieutenant Holman, didn't Richard Allen assert his innocence just a few hours earlier before this search. He had been aware that he had been accused. But at the search, you did not record

him, not even with your cell phone camera, him saying that it didn't matter. It's over. And Jerry Holman wrote, correct. I did not record it. And then he asked about the chain of Katsi with a gun,

and Baldwin said, this gun has been opened at least three times. A sidebar. is called. They conclude the sidebar. They go straight to jury questions. And there were no jury questions. And that was the end of the day. We got through all six witnesses. I'm just going to double check my work here with my friend's notes with Jerry Holman. Yep, it doesn't matter. It's over. I think I feel good about where we are. So there you go. I have not looked at this chat at all except to make sure

that there weren't people shouting at me saying that there was no sound working. So let me just get over to the ones that automatically start. There's a system where things automatically star. KCL, thank you. I appreciate your modding and everyone that's a moderator and helps. Ruben, you said that's at the very beginning of the stream and I can't agree more.

So many props to Dr. John for keeping the home fires burning. It's true. It's taken two of us to do this. Thank you so much, Sammy, for gifting a hidden true crime membership. Thank you to everyone who joins our channel. Thank you, Lisa Fowler. Thank you, Deidre. Gray Hughes Investigates.

Thank you so much for that compliment. Thank you for the amazing notes, better than all the pool reporters combined. Boom. I appreciate that. And Gray Hughes, I really valued your voice in the Crime Nation story about Delphi. I have been doing my best to learn all I can. And I know, great, that you have done a lot of work on this case and have been covering it in great detail from the beginning. So thank you for your work. Leah, thank you so much for your support. Meg, thank you. Tom. Spring, thank you.

I want everyone to be a hidden gem and to have a hidden true crime membership. So thank you to those who gift. Zab girl, it is so good to see you. Thank you, Zab girl. Hi, Lauren. She says, I just want to say awesome coverage. You are my go-to following this trial. Thank you so much for being the eyes and ears to all of us who can't be there. You're doing such a good job relaying the details. Makes me feel like I'm there. Zab girl, I really appreciate that and I really appreciate seeing you tonight. I hope that things are going well for you and that means a lot that you would be here. Thank you so much, Zab girl. Thank you so much for the caffeine, fun job because every time I go live in my car at lunch,

I stop by a convenience store and I grab caffeine. So the daily fund is needed. Thank you. McSpunky, it's so good to see you. You're always gifting memberships. Every time I see you now, I think of your theme song. If you know, you know. Thank you, Jamie.

So good to see so many new members. Thank you so much, Mojo. Thank you, Penny. Thank you to everyone gifting the memberships. So great. Thank you, Rosie. 37 cents change. Come to the courthouse and I'll bring you 37 cents.

Thank you, Jamie. And thank you, Beth. Appreciate it, everyone. Thank you, thank you. Yes, and to my amazing mods. Thank you. My mods are working overtime and incredible. Not only are these lives long,

they never are quite sure when they're happening and I'm doing everyday lives. So I also understand that not all my mods can be here every night, but when they show up, I'm just so grateful for them and they show up often. So thank you all to my moderators. I will go rest. Thank you, Gloria.

It's a new day tomorrow, and actually I've got to get ready to go get in line once again. So, yeah, all right, guys. Thank you, thank you. And we'll see you guys tomorrow at lunch. Thank you for subscribing and for notifications. And not only do our sponsors help to make this possible dream, beam, and their sale going on, and their support, your subscribing and liking our videos and showing up is also the biggest support we could get.

True story, I will have to be going home sometime next week for Halloween. When you have a little kid, you can't miss Halloween. It's as important as Christmas. And I was going to go home earlier, but I was able to change my flight tonight to stay out here longer. I just don't feel like I can leave right now.

There's just too much happening. So I made it sure that I will be staying longer in Delphi next week. But I will be going home for Halloween, but I will not leave until I have somebody for me in the courtroom taking notes. And I will still be going live with some excellent note takers. I actually have someone in mind, and I think they'll be able to fly out here and be here who will be excellent. And so I'll be able to still relay notes for those couple of days that I'm gone. Other than that, we're doing our best to just be here and stay dedicated. It's so interesting to cover a trial that's just there's no audio and there's no video.

So I know it's on all of us creators in there giving our best and a big shout out to all the other creators and YouTubers and reporters and media that are doing their best reporting. This is definitely a village. I am not the only one. So thank you. And thanks for thanking and supporting all of them and all of us. All right, guys. Okay. We'll see you guys.

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