Hidden True Crime - DELPHI: Richard Allen Trial, Wed 10/23/24 Inside the Courtroom: Autopsy Photos Shown

Episode Date: October 25, 2024

Richard Allen Trial Witness Testimony Wednesday 10/23/24 About Hidden True Crime: Lauren Matthias, a former television reporter, and her husband Dr. John Matthias, a criminal psychologist, started Hidden True Crime in 2020 with their Season, 'Beyond the Veil,' a psychological deep dive into the doomsday murders and prophet. What started as a simple conversation at their dinner table became a captivating podcast. Join the dynamic duo of Dr. John Matthias, a forensic psychologist, and Lauren Matthias, an investigative journalist, as they delve into the psychological facets of unthinkable crimes every week. Their unique perspectives and in-depth analysis offer a fresh take on true crime storytelling. Thank you for your support through sponsorships, subscribing, listening, and becoming a Patreon member at Patreon.com/HiddenTrueCrime Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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13-year-old Abigail Williams, and 14-year-old Liberty German in February of 2017. And the judge has actually decided to not only not televise this trial, but to also not even share audio. Thus, I am here to be the eyes and ears of the courtroom. These episodes are nightly live streams that I record on YouTube shortly after court ends each day. And if you notice these episodes are a bit more choppy than our other episodes,

please understand why. We are working around the clock to bring you the very latest on the trial with a quick turnaround. And if you would like to catch the full unedited live stream, you can always head over to Hidden True Crime on YouTube. Hey, everyone. We have a lot to go over tonight that happened in court today at the Richard Allen trial. A lot to cover.

And I'm a little bit late because there is a artist in court. court doing some sketches and she is finishing up one that is really important it'll i think help us understand the autopsy's a little bit more and so i was going over with her and she's going to be sending it to my email so i just want you to know we have some sketches kind of showing the injuries to abby and to libby um so so there's your you know by the way trigger warning for everyone, we are going to be talking about, you know, difficult things and autopsies of two little girls who were brutally murdered. Thank you so much. I appreciate that. Duncan Fund. Someone brought us Duncan while we were asleep outside the courthouse, and it was so delightful to wake up, too.

Thank you to everyone for your support. Thank you. So, all right. So I'm going to do what I always do, and I'm going to go through notes. Clearly, autopsies were a very big detail and deal today where you're going to go over them in detail. I'm a believer in not holding back because I feel it's so important. And so I'm going to share that, but let's just go through the order. Let's go through beginning to end of court today, all the notes I took. And then again, when we get to the autopsies, I will have some sketches to help us understand

exactly what we saw today or a bit of what we saw. A lot less graphic, though. All right, it is October 23rd, 2024. I'm in Delphi, Indiana, and I attended court today. I attended the trial of Richard Allen. It started with a new witness today. Sarah Carbaud, C-A-R-B-B-A-U-G-A-A. is how she spelled her last name. She had very, very long hair. I later learned that she was 35 years old. She stated that on the stand. And, you know, I thought she looked young.

But she explained that she is as local as you can get when it comes to Delphi. She lives right outside of Delphi, sort of born and raised, as local as you can get. Troublemaker Baker, thank you so much. Thank you to everyone. for your support. I'll thank people later so I can stay focused, but it means a lot. Thank you to everyone to mods. So Sarah would visit the trail on a daily basis to walk her dog. And she would pass by the Monon High Bridge entrance from her home. But she would use the Mears Farm entrance. That's actually the same entrance to remind all of you that Libby and Abby use that

fateful day on February 13th, 2017, where Kelsey dropped the off and if anybody sees my video of getting the lay of the land, I use the Mears Farm Entrance. The Mears Farm Entrance is directly in front of the Mears Farm, the Mears Family House. They donated, allegedly donated according to Sarah, some of the land, and that's why they, this entrance is directly in front of their house. Mears Farm Entrance. When she was 16 years old, she would walk across the the bridge, Sarah is explaining, but as an adult, she stopped attempting to walk across the bridge.

It made her nervous. She would only go to like a few steps and be done. She did not know Abby and Libby, but she learned that they were missing through an Amber alert on February 13th. She was driving by in her little red Saturn this day on February 13th, the Monon High Bridge Trail. Just to see how busy things were on the trail on February 13th. It was a beautiful day, she said. It was warm for February. And she would pass, she actually would pass by, does that help, three to four times that day.

And she saw mini cars that day on February 13th. The last time she drove by was around 4 p.m. And I'm going to go back to yesterday and state that that's exactly right. they were able to pull surveillance from the Hoosier store, and they have Sarah, they mentioned. We didn't know who Sarah was yesterday, but they had Sarah driving by at 356 p.m. So when she says a little around four, that's exactly right. And she saw a group of people around that time. And she saw a woman with blonde hair looking stressed out.

And she saw that this group of people just kind of looked and she can. kept saying that stressed out. They just seemed stressed. I realize you can see my computer behind this. Is that better? Okay. There you go. So she just seemed, the woman with blonde hair seemed stressed out. Sarah was driving eastbound and she saw on the north side of the road a man walking west covered in mud and blood. I looked at him, Sarah says, and he did not make eye contact with me. She slowed down because there was a man walking on the side of the road. That is why she slowed down. She did not recognize him.

And she, again, states that she did not know Abby and Libby were missing at this time. By the way, at this moment, I put in parentheses that Richard Allen and his attorney Baldwin are talking. during this testimony of Sarah. Sarah explains that she learned the girls were missing after she arrived home. So at this time, she did not know. She then learned of the photo of the bridge guy after she learned the girls were missing. And she recognized the man as the one she saw on the road covered in mud and blood. His demeanor, Sarah says, was noticeable, sketchy.

was the exact word she said. She was sketchy. She says, she explains that when someone is walking on the side of the road towards you, you notice. He was walking like this. And she demonstrates. And I took note of how she demonstrates.

So I'm going to show you. She actually stood up off the stand, walked in front of the jury to demonstrate how this man who was covered in mud and blood was walking. So I will do it for you. Taking one for the team. Sarah did too. if there's room here.

Sarah explained that he was hunched over like that. And that's how he walked. And she did that walk in front of the jury. You guys will never see that. So I did my best to recreate Sarah's walk. There was, she explains mud on the top and blood and mud on his legs. And it caught her attention. She wondered if he had fallen down a cliff.

She noticed the sun behind her as she was heading east. That was what also helped her understand the time of day. She is actually, Sarah explains to the jury, traumatized with anything that has to do with murder. And she also overthinks things a lot. So she did not say anything at first about seeing this man covered with mud and blood. but three weeks later at the mirror's entrance there was an officer stopping cars and taking tips and she decided to be brave and tell the police what she saw now she is speaking to the jurors when she explains that when this happened that the delphi the town is so small and it is so

tight-knit that this crime turned their town upside down it was was frightening, she says. The police presence was really upped. And so on that day, there were actually barricades requesting cars to stop, to share any tips they might have. She spoke to police that day, and she gave her official statement seven months later. And she spoke with a lot of certainty on the stand and in her walk. That was one thing I noticed. And then there was the defense redirect. Excuse me, the defense cross. Forgive me.

I wrote redirect. I meant cross. The cross exam is next with the defense. And the defense attorney that was cross-examining her was Baldwin. And Baldwin claims that Sarah originally said mud 11 times in her initial statement that she saw a man covered in mud, but she did not say blood. Sarah says to Baldwin that she absolutely said blood. Maybe she was mumbling or maybe she was nervous or maybe police didn't write it down,

but she definitely said mud and blood. Baldwin says that Sarah was interviewed a couple of weeks later and he says to her, you did not say blood, only mud. Baldwin Sarah claims after that Sarah gets quite defensive of her statement

and quickly she claims that there is an hour of missing video from that interview. I wrote next to that wait what? That's exactly what I was thinking. I wrote Sarah claims

there's an hour of missing video of her interview. I wrote wait, what? Baldwin asks her about missing video and Sarah says all I know is there is an hour video from my interview, I have never been able to watch and I don't know where it is, but I know that I said mud and blood. Baldwin doesn't acknowledge what she just said and reiterates that in the

interview transcript, the transcript that he has with him, she did not say blood and she gives her the transcript to read. And Sarah reads the transcript. Sarah maintains after reading the transcript that she said blood only that she said blood and mud, but the transcript does not have blood. Sarah becomes quite defensive and she states that her testimony has not changed. Baldwin then says, well, in your third interview, which was March of, I didn't put the the year, I assume 2017, but I did not put the year. Your third interview, you never say mud, you only say blood, he claims.

Sarah is confused and she says she has never changed her story that she saw a man with mud and blood. Sarah doesn't know why a third interview would only say covered in blood and not mud too. So now they're saying that she only said blood in her third interview and not mud. She has no idea why. She reads the transcript on the stand. Baldwin says that Sarah has always said her story hasn't changed. Wait.

Oh, so Sarah says that she has always said that her story hasn't changed and she has always been consistent. But in 2017, mud changed to blood, Baldwin says. And you also mentioned in your third interview that a pig looks like it had been slaughtered. There was so much blood. And then Baldwin asks, and did you stop to help this guy if he was covered in blood? she quickly said in quotes no i'm a woman i won't stop to help a man exclamation point baldwin then states you originally stated it was a tan coat and in a second interview you said blue sarah says i think i originally saw a lot of mud and i thought tan baldwin states you said in a second interview there

was a sweater under his coat. There was a curl to his hair, she thought. She explains that she passed him, and he did have a little bit of hair sticking out. Baldwin states, you also said that he had feminine eyes. Now, to this, Sarah says she never remember saying that, and she seems quite shocked that someone suggests that she said that the man had effeminate eyes. Now, I want to point out that I don't think that's too absurd, that I don't think that's a bad thing. We're referring to a man that she saw that she believes is bridge guy.

We're at the trial of Richard Allen. Richard Allen has very large eyes. So when it comes to what the prosecution's theory is that Richard Allen is bridge guy, huge eyes are often related to being feminine. Look at every Disney princess. I mean, they're like this big, right? So I don't know, my point is I don't know if Sarah saying that he has, like had these feminine-looking eyes would hurt the prosecution or this trial.

That's a side note for me. I'm going to continue. And Richard Allen is not being mentioned at all during this testimony. I'm the one mentioning Richard Allen because he has these very large BDIs. I've mentioned them. So I'll get back to the testimony, just a side note for me, because the Baldwin bringing up that Sarah said that he had these feminine-looking eyes really seemed to upset Sarah. She said that she never said that. Sarah says that she never remember saying that.

And Baldwin asks her to refresh her memory and to read the transcript where she says this. and she refuses. That's how strongly she feels. She is now refusing to read the transcript. Baldwin explains that Sarah's phone pinged. It's Verizon, but then he says, you claimed you didn't have a phone,

but that your phone pinged. Sarah, speaking to the juries, says that her phone pinged at some point, that at some point she had her phone. Baldwin says, you saw him, though, for just a mere second. this man. Sarah says 30 seconds leading up to him as I drove and then passing him. She explains why

she saw him for 30 seconds because as she's driving down this country road, she sees him in the distance. She gets closer. She sees him. She passes. Baldwin sort of says, but you said that you really just saw him in an instant. And she said 30 seconds. And then she explained why. And then she explained why. and she said, an instant to you can be a mere second. To me, I saw him for 30 seconds. Then he kind of says, well, look, you know, you're just passing him. She said, you know, yeah, I was 100 feet from him. I was 50 feet from him.

When I'm passing him, I'm two, you know, I'm this, I'm two feet from him. So she speaks to the jury in answer to him saying, you said you only saw him from a mere second. And she's saying at least 30 seconds, she speaks to the jury and she says, I saw him. I couldn't tell how fast he was walking. Maybe he was a man in his 30s or 40s. He was covered in mud and blood. I saw him. She says that she saw a hat on this person.

And, oh, so this is the redirect now. Now the prosecution is back. So that's how she concludes with Baldwin. And now the redirect is back. And the prosecution asks her more about what she saw. she said that she seemed to have a pullover sweater with what she thought was a tan hood, that this man was wearing a pullover sweater with a tan hood. She saw a hat on this person.

She admits that she only knows really about baseball caps, and it was an odd hat. It was a weird hat. He was hunched over. It was a weird hat, and her mind is now tainted, and she admits that she cannot describe the hat. She actually made a joke that she said that she has looked at so many hats. in trying to decipher what hat this man is wearing that she felt it was like tinder for hats, just swiping and swiping. She admits her mind is now tainted.

She's not going to be able to figure out what hat this person was wearing, but that he certainly had a hat on. But then there's a question by the prosecution, and they ask her, well, could you have mistaken any hair or curly hair for a hat? And she says, possibly, meaning she thought that this man, had curly hair and they're saying because that had been a hat you saw not his hair and she said possibly the redirect continues and she's talking to the jury did you indicate in your last in your first interview did you so so the prosecution is asking sarah did you indicate in your first interview

that you saw a man with mud and blood sarah says yes in your second interview she's asked did you see a man with mud or blood. And she, there are in this moment, many, many objections by Baldwin. I've never seen the, the defense have so many objections to this questioning by the prosecution. Objection, objections, he's saying it needs to be refraised.

He's saying they're leading. Most of the, some of the objections are sustained. They're just like, you know, order, boom, boom. And the last one was overruled. and the prosecution is able to continue. In your second interview, did you say you saw a man with mud and blood? Sarah says, yes.

In your third interview, the prosecution asks, did you say you saw a man with mud and blood on him? She says, yes. And now we have recross. Oh, there's more. Recross. Baldwin gets back up. Baldwin pushes that she said mud 13 times in her first interview,

and she did not say blood. and she did not say blood the second time. Do you know what she said to that? She said, in quotes, are we doing this again? She said that to Baldwin. She reiterates, an hour of video is missing. And that's not on her. That's exactly what she said.

She goes, there's an hour of video missing. And it's not on me, she said. But she states, she said mud and blood. The jurors have questions for Sarah. They ask what her age was in. In 2017, that's when she states she's 35 years old. And so she realizes she was 26, she believes. She said 26, 27.

She settled on 26. How wide was the road? Wunderer asks. She explains that it's a country road, so narrow, she says, small enough sometimes that you have to pull over. How did you know it was blood? Someone asks her. She says that the color and what it seemed like,

it just looked like blood. How close were you? a juror asked and she said three feet away. Baldwin had issues with her saying three feet away. That's when he stood up and he said, I have a question after these answers. That you said that you were originally, when you originally testified,

you said that you were 20 feet away from him. She says, she looks at Baldwin, she says, I passed him at first. It's 20 feet and then 10. Then it's three feet as she's passing. I write she gets very defensive.

Like to a point. where it wasn't a good look in my opinion. So inserting my opinion here, she was so defensive. It was not the best look. And at this point, she says, in quotes, I didn't take a ruler and measure. I was driving. But she says, as she passed him, she was probably three feet away. And that was the test of Sarah. And that was my water bottle falling. We're going to get to the next witness, Dr. Roland Corp, that's an hired forensic pathologist who performed the autopsies. Before I do that, I'm just going to check chat and see how everyone's doing. Thank you,

everyone, for your, is that my, is my sound back now? That's exactly why I want to take a break. I'm going to make sure that I'm good. Am I back? Okay, that's exactly why I want. wanted to take a break. So to say what I was just sharing, things are about to get heavy here. So yeah, just taking a break, making sure everyone's good. Before we continue, thank you everyone for the super chats. I see them. Hello to our new members. Thank you, Amy. McSpunky, thank you for being here. Thank you, everyone. All right. is there still no sound or are some people just behind some people might be behind you guys are saying

since you've been live yeah i can slow chat let me get chat slowed right now we do have a lot of people here don't we okay i'm flowing chat at this moment okay all right i'm also going to check and make sure that i got this last um okay i have the last sketch i was looking for so we are about to talk about hard things, autopsy photos of Abby and Libby that we saw today. And as I stated in my lunch live, this case is just brutal, this crime. Thank you, everyone. All right. Okay, new witness, Dr. Roland Corp. K-O-H-R. He is a semi-retired forensic pathologist. He's performed a He performs autopsies. That's what he does.

He is wearing a suit. I have to share what he looks like. He is wearing a suit with a red tie and he has bright white hair, thinning a little bit on top, but he makes up for it with his big white eyebrows and his big white mustache. He has these darker eyes. And honestly, he looks like he just walked out of a monopoly board game or a clue board game. take your pick, whether it's the Monopoly Man or Colonel Mustard.

He was just like this classic, I think you get the picture. Just, anyway, very distinguished looking gentleman. He had a very soft voice with a whistle, sort of like the gopher on Winnie the Pooh. I don't know if you know that character on Disney's Winnie the Pooh. There's a gopher character and he sort of whistles as he talks. And it was similar to that. And I'm sharing this because he was difficult to hear. And we were all straining our ears.

It got better after lunch. But it was very difficult. We were all leaning forward. I was doing this. Family allegedly complained and said, we can't hear. They said there was nothing they could do. But after lunch, he did get up with his pointer at the big screen as we were all looking at the photographs, these heartbreaking photographs, and it did get better.

and I've certainly compared notes with my neighbors and others. So this is what we have. And the photos were very clear. And so we saw the photos. He explained his detailed background for a very, very long time, which makes sense when it comes to an expert witness because what the defense is going to try to do with this witness is make him not look like he's as professional or expert as he is.

they're going to try to minimize his expertise. And so they spent a very large amount of time sharing his expertise and his training. And again, it was very quiet. I did not take notes during this. It took a long time. And I understand why they had to dot their eyes and cross their teeth with what an expert he is. He explained that in his career, he's done probably 7,700 to 7,800 autopsies. He's been an expert witness in multiple states, Montana, Indiana, Illinois.

He's testified for the defense and the prosecution or whoever sends him a subpoena, which he says is usually the prosecution, but he'll testify forever. It's just typically the prosecution to ask them to testify in court. And he's being handed now the state's exhibits. When he was contacted on Valentine's Day, 2017, 214, 2017. He was called and he was asked to perform the autopsies of Abby and Libby on February 15th. After he's handed the state exhibits, he's asked if he recognizes these images. And he looks at them and says that he does recognize the images that he's looking at.

They start with Abby. They share her height and weight. Abby was actually under 100 pounds and 64 inches. Both Abby and Libby, we learned today, were the same height. both five foot four, which I mentioned. So that's how tall they were. We start to see the photos of Abby in her clothing. He explains that there was blood on her hooded sweatshirt and that she was wearing, again,

a Delphi swimming sweatshirt. It was, I learned Kelsey German's sweatshirt that was in the back of the car that Libby had put on and was wearing earlier in the day. or allegedly wearing earlier in the day. And, but Abby was found in this sweatshirt deceased. She had a sports bra on. She had a pink, they referred to it as a pink camisole. We saw it was more of a pink tank top.

And then she had a sports bra and she had actually another bra under her sports bra. I had heard that. I wasn't completely clear, but we didn't see photographs of that. They took off all the layers one by one. and so she had a bra on as well as a sports bra. And then she had jeans on, which were Libby's jeans. External on her neck, I'm going to pull up the sketch now. So I'm going to share with you that I was sitting next to she actually is also a friend of

mine and she is an artist. And while we took notes, she sketched the entire time. Let me share this. And we are going to pull up these sketches of Abby. And sorry, forgive me, I'm looking for Abby. Okay. Can everybody see that? By the way, my friend who is doing this as a service,

I thanked her and I asked if I could support her business. She is a freelance artist. She actually said no because she's doing this on behalf of Abby and Livy, but I'm going to say that she does have an Instagram account at, Hey, Christina Mac. I'm very grateful that she did this today because no one's ever going to see these photos necessarily or we don't know, but this is a very good rendition of what we saw when it comes to Abby's wound. So this shows on the, I'll read to you, do you know what, while you look at this, I will read to you, what I heard. So there was an external, it was five centimeters in length and it was so deep it caused

holes in the muscle fibers. We're referring to the single incision across of Abby's neck. And it was two to two and a half inches wide. The muscle tissue was cut. They referred to the essay kit for Abby, by the way as well and explained everything that took place in the essay kit. I won't go over that in detail. You can Google that if you're curious what goes into an essay kit. They did not see any visible injuries on the kit. So by that he means visible trauma. But I appreciate.

that Dr. Corr said this, it does not mean that there wasn't sexual contact. He just did not indicate, this kit just did not indicate injury or trauma. It did not have any abrasions. So that, that is what he explained in, I will just jump fast forward, and that's exactly what was said about Libby's essay kit as well, so you can know. But I do appreciate that Dr. Corr stated, it does not. mean that there wasn't sexual contact. And I just want to point out, which I always do, there was certainly essay involved because making two minors take off their clothes, one of them

being found nude. That is assault. So, just wanted to share that. See, there were really no other major abrasions or lacerations or wounds besides her one wound in her neck. The stab wound was actually, you know, I put question marks by this, so I'm not going to say it. I'm going to need to confirm that. I don't want to start any conspiracy. So I'm going to skip that. I put question mark and to ask first, and I never did. So I'll jump forward.

There were no other injuries beyond her neck. There were no defensive wounds. and there were no blunt force trauma wounds. There is a speculation that Abby was constrained. There was a faint ligature mark across the face. It could have either been tape, but there was no tape residue. It could have also been cloth. Now, the sketch artist Christina in the middle,

you can see that there's a line on her chin. I wrote my own drawing, and he pointed out the faint lines on the screen that he believed were the possible constraints, meaning on her face. And he pointed out these two lines and they were very parallel to one another. And they were here and here. And I actually think that middle has one of the lines and she labeled it a superficial wound. But I actually think he was pointing out the faint.

There were some superficial wounds. but I think he was pointing out the faint lines there. He explained that the lines went right. Sorry, it was here and here, and he did not believe that this constraint would have covered her mouth, that it would have been below her mouth, and again, either being constrained with tape or cloth.

And there was no tape residue, like with duct tape, that would be clear that there was duct tape. But right across here. The laceration was, it was a sideways direction. And he said it was most likely right to left. Oh, and so it was on the left side of her neck. So right to left, on the left side of her neck. And then the prosecution states, we're going to come back to Abby. And we're going to jump to Liberty. And as they jump quickly to Liberty, to Libby, he explains that three major vessels were cut, including the jugular vein. And then the judge actually interrupts and asks the counsel to approach. And after quite a while, nobody's really quite sure why the judge has asked counsel to approach. The jury is then told they're going to break before anything else happens.

And we all of a sudden have a 15-minute break in court. This is when someone allegedly told me that family or others were complaining in the courtroom that you couldn't hear anything. You could hardly hear this gentleman, Dr. Corp. And the judge explains after everybody comes back that the jurors and important parties can hear. She hopes in media, who has the best seats in the house, can relate info if anybody can't hear it. But she cannot improve the sound.

And so we continue on with liberty. And I'll show you my own sketch that, well, no, let's just pull this up. Oh, actually, you know what? This is the moment. I knew there was a reason I stayed on Abby. They started to go to Libby's autopsy, but then they actually went back to Abby. So then we stuck to Abby. So it was almost like this false alarm.

We're like, we're going to come back to Abby. Let's talk about Libby. And then we had these Libby. and then we quickly went back to Abby. And so this was a chart I made of Abby. Let's see if I can hold it up. They explained the veins there. And they showed that.

And that's where the cut is. So the blue, it was actually a graph on the screen, the veins and then the cut. and that was what I drew. And this is actually, I'll show you this. This is what I drew with the possible restraint. Because he actually pointed it out. And this was an actual photograph, a close-up of Abby.

And I drew this. And there are two black, faint lines. I realize that I'm small. Let me pull this up bigger. I just realized. Okay. So those were the faint lines that were pointed out on this photograph of her. This was a real photograph we were looking at. And the faint line could be a cloth or duct tape, but no tape residue lines below mouth, so mouth not covered. And because I just made myself bigger, I'll show you again this other chart I made of Abby. Those were her veins. And that was where her cut was. This is now where we turned to a photo and looked at Abby's backside, and there is a sketch of that as well. And so I'm going to bring that up.

So let me switch. This was a photograph that we saw. It was titled Lighter Mortis, which if you Google, you look up, it's actually liver mortis and it's the pooling of blood. This is how they explain what we're looking at here on the backside of Abby. The way her backside looks meant to Dr. Kor that she had been dead at least 10 hours, if not longer. And this is also where we see that there is debris on her back,

meaning that she was likely laying nude on the ground at some point because that was under her sweatshirt. And the places where it's pink and red was where there was pressure between the part of her body and the ground and where the blood pooled. And the blood pooled, of course, also where there was clothing. She had two bras on. She had a regular black bra as well as a sports bra. And so there were going to be pressure points there. I will go back to this one. And I'll explain, we're going to get to Liberty now.

So I'll just explain a few things on this sketch. There was blood on her arm, but they explained that was after pulling off her hoodie. That is what her pink tank top looked like. I'm starting on this side or I'm starting on, I'm starting, I don't know what side right or left that you guys are seeing. and then her one gash and then they took off one by one. Those are her two bras and some superficial wounds. And because the wound was gaping, the doctor says that he stretched it to measure just how long it was after he cleaned it out. And so it was quite long over two inches.

All right. now we'll get to Libby. And I do have sketches of Libby. Let me see where I want to start. Libby is also 64 inches, 5 foot 4. The first photo that they showed was prior to cleaning her body. It was heartbreaking. And I did note that Kathy Allen, Richard Allen's wife, looked so sad during this moment.

And R.A.'s Richard Allen's sister had an arm around Kathy. So Richard Allen's sister was there, Richard Allen's mother, and Kathy Allen. Richard Allen was looking at the photos. I couldn't see his expression because he was, you know, he was in front of me, but he was looking at the photos. And sometimes he would take notes. I feel like there was something else I saw here, and I realized I needed to share. something else.

First pick prior to cleaning the body. Oh, I know what it was. I want to say there has been a lot of questions about Abby and how much blood because there was a lot more blood on Libby at the crime scene. And there's been speculation that Abby didn't really bleed. When they showed the autopsy, they explained how there was a lot of blood on the white sheet behind her as they lifted her. and undressed her. So there was certainly blood with Abby.

It was just more consolidated in one spot. There was only one injury to Abby. All right. Let me see the sketch. Okay. So Libby was, Libby had a lot more injuries. So I'm going to share the sketch. Let's see.

is that better? So this is Libby. You know, I'm going to make this big and just get me off of the screen for a second so you can see this. If I can figure out how to do that. Okay. I don't want to cover any of it up. I agree that her injuries did seem very personal. So these were all photographs. They were actually photographs that we saw. So we'll start, you know what, I'm going to make it larger. We'll start with this. This was the first, let's look at that photo really quickly. So the first photo was prior to cleaning her body and there was blood just everywhere. And the second photo was a closeup of the first and second wound in her neck. And it probably looked like this. And, um, noting, and they noted that there was a tag in her wounds.

So the tag in her wounds, if you look here and you see, so let me just see how you guys are seeing this, let me make sure that this looks how I want to look. Okay. So if you see this and you see that on the, so look at the right wound and how the skin kind of comes down in that, like he referred to that as a. tag. And in that tag, he says technically the one wound is two wounds at the very least. Because what it means is it indicates a second pass of the weapon, or he would refer to it as an instrument or a sharp object, meaning that these two wounds overlapped and he was, he was,

there were multiple passes with the weapon. I'll call it a weapon and killed them. Putting my phone on, do not disturb, forgive me. So, yeah, sorry, guys. Put my game face back on here. They explained some superficial wounds on her body. so I'll go, I'll zoom back out now. Okay, I'll explain the superficial wounds.

There were many things to sketch here, and I don't know if she drew the superficial wounds, so I'll just explain the superficial wounds. Here I am, everyone. They pointed out that there was an incision in her chest just below her shoulder, like sort of like between her chest and her shoulder blade down here. I don't know what side, but on one of these sides,

I don't have the pitcher in front of me. There was a tiny abrasion just below her neck and a superficial, superficial abrasions in her neck. There were multiple tags on each, there were tags on each wound. There were multiple passes on each neck wound. So with Abby, there was one pass and one wound. With Libby, there were multiple wounds,

and each wound had multiple. passes. And guys, they were large. I even wrote here, honestly, this was me trying to write. I'm just going to show you my attempt so you can see the differences. And I'll show you. And I just wrote next to it so deep and so bad. I think we were all just in shock. This was my attempt. I just wrote so deep and so bad. It really, really was. Oh, and this is when I wrote, I wrote this. I said Libby's family is watching. Richard Allen's family is watching. Richard Allen is taking notes and watching.

And I wrote the pics. They're so graphic. This is shocking. I wrote wounds massive. Like I was clearly taking it in and just four or five huge wounds is what they stated. Picks graphic. That's sort of just how I take my notes in there. And by the way, this is not easy for me to talk about.

I'm not doing this for, I just feel like it's so important to know what these girls went through and to have the truth because there's been such a lack of transparency. I am not enjoying doing this and being the messenger right now. I hope you all know. But I also know that if Libby's, if the victim's family are in there watching this, everybody should know what these two girls went through. So that's, you know, I guess I just want to share my purpose really quickly too, because this is not easy for me.

but I also know that nobody else can be in, not everyone can be in the courtroom. There's no audio. There's no video. So I'm just, I'm just trying to be honest and be the messenger here. So I will not forget today. All right.

Gameface back on. Let's keep looking at this. Okay. So then he explains the close-up pick of a pattern. And Christina has done a, great sketch of that example. Okay. So he shows a photo of one of the wounds and points out that what seems likely to be a

serrated pattern. And he calls it a serrated pattern multiple times. But it is confusing because he keeps saying serrated pattern, but he's never saying that a serrated knife was used or anything like that. He actually, as he calls it a serrated pattern, he's also seeming to say that that doesn't necessarily mean the weapon was serrated. He also refers at one point to more like abrasions. I have question marks here. I remind myself to ask my fellow seatmates what they're seeing.

But I certainly see a serrated edge pattern. And as you can see here in this really good sketch, that's what we're seeing. Right on the edge of one of the wounds. It's serrated like. There's also a gaping wound above the serrated pattern. That's not really drawn here in detail. So let's see here. So there's clearly multiple wounds in her neck, as you can see here, right?

On this picture, the sketch only shows the serrated, but above it, you could see the start of another big gaping wound. like it was really large on this hold on here right there and this is when Dr. Corp brought up

and speculated something that he had been thinking about after his reports were done and he said that so again it's not shown here but it was next it was a spot a gaping wound next to this serrated pattern okay and I'll show you

these, because this actually kind of is more like these gaping wounds. Let's just look at it all, right? Okay, there you guys go. The gaping wound above the serrated line is another wound that Dr. Corp speculates another piece of the knife was used or put into this large wound, like the handle going too far. He explained that he had been thinking about it and that in the individual, his garage, in Dr. Cor's garage, he has a box cutter. And he had been looking at his box

cutter, and a box cutter has a plastic thumb grip to keep it from slipping. And the more that Dr. Core has thought about it since his report, the more he's realized that it could be the side of a box cutter that went too far into this gaping wound of Libby's neck. Abbeys, they go went to this, and this was hard to hear, but he was asked about their symptoms of what would happen from their wounds before they died. He explained that Abby's symptom from her wound would be pain, bleeding, and then panic sets in depending on the person, and then the heart rate tries to compensate for the loss of blood, and the blood pressure starts dropping, and then the body goes into shock, and there's lost consciousness.

She's not sustaining normal function, and the brain shuts down. It's asked, how long would it take for Abby to die? They say if she was still sitting up versus if she was sitting still versus upright, it would be different. At least five to ten minutes, maybe longer, depending on how still she was. In terms of injuries to liberty,

it would be the same symptoms. The blood loss because of her injuries would be more rapid and the stages of shock more rapid. That's where then he refers to the hands with blood that we had seen in photographs today and earlier when we saw crime scene photos. Both of Libby's hands were covered in blood, both of them. And I had speculated with you that I wondered

if she had grabbed her injury. Dr. Core said as much. He said that he believed that the hands with blood on Liberty were probably her initial reaction. It would be the initial reaction of many people to apply pressure and stop the bleeding. He said it could take five to ten minutes, but probably five minutes with Libby since three vessels were cut. He estimates that the time of death for both girls was 40, 41 hours before the autopsy was done on February 15th, Well, to be more clear, the autopsy was done on February, oh, sorry, February 15th at 8 a.m. in the morning. And again, on Libby, there were four wounds on the neck, five, maybe five.

They were similar in size to Abbeys, but they had multiple passes. And this is again where they reiterated there was nothing visible in the SA kit, but that doesn't mean that there wasn't essay. So then we get to a redirect. I'll take these down. And there is a redirect with Rosie, I keep calling it to redirect. It's a cross, a cross exam. I don't know why I'm referring to as a redirect. Then that concludes the prosecution's questioning of Dr. Corp. And then there is a cross exam with Dr. or not Dr. Rosie, with attorney Rosie. And Rosie is claiming that Dr. Corr said he couldn't be sure of the time of death so that he's surprised, you know, that he's stating a time of death now. He also said that during the deposition, Rosie is saying

that during the deposition, Dr. Corr said he could not tell what weapon was used on Abby. Dr. Core answers and says, you're right, I said it was a sharp instrument, but I certainly cannot say with certainty what that sharp instrument is. Question why the defense says, well, you said that this injury could be caused by anything from a pocket knife to a kitchen knife, but you said nothing in your deposition back then about a box cutter. Dr. Corr says, correct, explaining that he thought about it later. The defense says, I'm going to skip that because I'm not certain I have the right facts there.

don't want to start anything. I'll go back with all these questions and I'll tell you tomorrow during my lunch life. They explained that they did collect, or tried to collect anything around fingernails, but essentially the fingernails were so short, especially on Abby, that it was almost impossible. She was likely a nail biter. There was, there's a question from the defense about cerebral edema, a swelling of the blood and the brain with, Libby and Dr. Court explains that Ms. German's case was mild. And then the defense said, but in all of this autopsy report, there is nothing to say who did this. Is that correct? And Dr. Corr said correct.

Now Rosie is actually getting pretty feisty with this expert witness, Dr. Corp. And Rosie starts saying that Dr. Corp. should have come to his office with this new information that there was a February deposition where he never mentioned a box cutter. He never mentioned his new thoughts about this handle of a box cutter. And why did he not come to Dr. Rosie's office and the defense's office and share this? Court claims, Dr. Corr claims in response to that that he has not changed his deposition, that he has not changed anything that would make him need to go to the office of the defense and tell him, the only thing that he's thought about now is he has a theory about a box cutter

due to seeing one in his garage. Rosie says, well, how many times have you talked to the prosecution since the deposition of February? Dr. Corr says a few times. Rosie says, but you didn't add a supplemental report after sharing this with the prosecution? Dr. Corr says, that happens if I change something and I have not changed anything. Rosie then says, but you sat down with a reporter two years ago, had coffee with them. Dr. Core says,

did I say Dr. Rosie? Attorney Rosie, Dr. Core. Dr. Core says that is correct. Now we have a redirect with the prosecution, Dr. Lutrell, and he asks, how many knives do you think were used? and his answer, which confused me because I was expecting multiple knives at this point, one serrated, another, multiple weapons.

His answer is that he believed there could just be one weapon or knife that was used. Question by the prosecution, are you sure that the tags and artifacts in Libby's wound doesn't mean that there was more than one instrument? Dr. Corr's answer is not necessarily. So in other words, not necessarily doesn't mean he is certain. There could be one. There could be more. After this concludes, for the first time ever, there are no jury questions. And that concluded the autopsies.

Okay, before we get to the next witness, checking, how is timing on chat? I will just, do I need to, do I need to, do I need to slow down the chat or are we good? Thank you so much, Chelsea. Thank you to everyone here. Oh my goodness. Thank you, everyone. I have my phone on Do Not Disturb, but that's my husband who overrides the Do Not Disturb. So forgive the sound there.

All right. Thank you, everyone. We'll go to these later. I see a lot of questions. So I want you to know that I will go back to them. Let's jump to the next witness, the last witness for the day. So the next witness is Christopher Cecil, first sergeant Cecil. He is part of the Indiana Crimes Against Children Task Force, and he's, he shared his CV,

and he's actually graduating this year. He will be part of the cybercrimes investigation unit, and he has been involved in hundreds of cases. In 2019, he was a computer forensics examiner for the Indiana State Police. He had done extractions on a lot of extractions to let them see the full contents of an Apple device. He used a new gray key system to get all raw data that looks for lost or deleted data. And we're now referring to Libby's cell phone or her iPhone 6.

The gray key is a program that was used. This is not Cellbright. That was another one that Indiana State Police used, but this is gray key. He's actually used. It's different to get information out of the phone. And then other programs make that information readable. It includes things like dates, times, text, photos, etc. On February 13th, 2017, he didn't take the phone on that date,

but he took Libby's phone and he looked specifically at that date because he knew that Libby and Abbey were on the Monon High Bridge that date and recorded who police believed to be the abductor on the bridge. They were trying to establish a timeline and compare the data for investigators. Here is a report now that showed up on the screen of a summary of his findings. It was an Apple iPhone 6. And there were at least two people that often used this phone. Libby and Abby.

There was actually, he knew this because of user accounts and information for both girls stored in the phone, including iClouds and passwords. Both of the girls shared this phone. That's just how close they were. The Apple Health application was page 9 of this report, and we're going to go over it, and it is really interesting. So they explained that the Apple Health application tracks and is always tracking and working in the background when it comes to steps.

It could determine steps that were walked or ran or the value of what kind of thing, elevation, everything, time, date, steps, distance, etc. So on 2013, 2017, there were 100, excuse me, there were 1,682 steps recorded between 131 and 208 p.m. on that day. Now, as I read this, let's put in something that helps at 213. So the date is 2.13 and the time that the video of Bridge Guy was taken was also 213. So just remember 213. That's the time.

I have to like put everything around that time. So just remember the video on the bridge that says down the hill was timestamped at 2.13. So going back to this. So between 130, meaning starting before they're even dropped off because, um, Kelsey actually drops them off. Let's see. I can find this. I have.

Kelsey is on surveillance camera dropping them off at the bridge at 149 p.m. Just so I'm just going to help you guys. So Kelsey drops Abbey and Libby off at the bridge at 149 at the mirrors entrance. And then at 2.13 p.m. is when we hear down the hill. So just keep those two times in your brain while I share these other times from the Apple health application. So between 131, so before they even are going to the bridge, and 208, there are 1,682 steps taken. There is, forgive me. I just want to make sure I get this right.

This was difficult at first, and we were comparing notes. So I want to get this right. At 231, there is an elevation change because the Apple health application can record how many flights of stairs you take. But essentially what it means is you're taking steps with an elevation change. And there was an elevation change at 21, two floors worth of an elevation change. And then at 232, he concludes that the phone stopped. ever moving again at 232. So dropped off at 149.

146, 149. I keep forgetting that. I got to get that right. Hold on. Dropped off at 149 by Kelsey. Bridge Guy videotaken at 213. They say that the phone never moved again after 232. But let's get into the detail.

There's more. But let's get into the other times. So at 141, a pitcher was posted to Snapchat, Libby's Snapchat. At 143, another picture is posted to Libby's Snapchat while she's in the car, the vehicle. So that would make sense because, again, Kelsey dropped them off at about 149. This is 143. A pick is posted of Liberty in the car on her Snapchat. at 205 p.m. A picture is posed on Snapchat of Abbey on the Monon High Bridge. At 213 is a video taken of Bridge Guy. At 214, someone tries to unlock the phone. So that's big. So one minute after the Bridge Guy video is taken, somebody tries to unlock the phone at 214. They are unsuccessful in unlocking the phone.

at 231 flights are climbed at 232 the last time the phone moved and let's keep getting into the nitty gritty because there's a lot of nitty gritty here so let's see here he explains that the health app is always on and it would always detect movement if the phone moved it would detect movement There's this knowledge C info. It's like, okay, this is where you're going to learn that I am not a tech person. I'm writing stuff down. I'm doing my best here to relay what I heard. This stuff is like kind of beyond me.

I doing my best. Sort of like my sketches. Knowledge C info tracks activity, even simple activity like a light on, on a phone. In 2019, knowledge C becomes a thing. thing. So it wasn't a thing back in 2017 necessarily, but it's becoming a thing in 2019. Gray key, the program they're using, which is not celebrate, but Gray Key, the new programming that Indiana State Police is starting to use, gets knowledge C info. And then the software is used to put it into a readable form so that we can read exactly what they extract from the phone.

So he's just sort of like kind of bragging about how. detail this is. It shows when the phone is being, so knowledge sees stuff can show when the phone's being charged, when it's being plugged in, when apps are utilized, when calls are made, everything like that. And it shows a timeline. So going back to that, going back to that 141, oh, so that 141, I explained the picture was posted on Snapchat and it's found in the Snapchat application, like the Snapchat cash. At 143, there's that other Snapchat pick of Liberty in a tie-dye shirt, in a vehicle, in an automobile, and she is smiling. It's of Libby. At 205, there's that other Snapchat on the Monon High Bridge, and we've already gone through this. We're going through it

one more time. 213 video of Bridge Guys recorded. Abby Williams walks across on that video, and a man walks behind her. What happens after the video stops? Well, at 2.14 and 41 seconds, someone tries to unlock the phone and they are unsuccessful. And at 232 is the last time the phone move. But, and then the last recorded data is at 1032 p.m. And then after that, the battery likely is deployed.

You know, it might not have been PM, excuse me. That was probably AM the next morning. Forgive me. At 10.32 AM is the last recorded data. The battery likely depleted. Now, in 2019 to 2024, a lot of programs have changed to extract data. You get updates on programs, and he wanted to see the new info. So he still wanted to see the new info.

So he reprocessed the original raw data. So he did not do a new extraction from the phone, but he took the raw data and he plugged it in. This is in 2024. to see how things have improved and what he might get that's new. He also had access to Bunner's data that was someone a couple days ago that also extracted the phone using Cellbrite, and they compared his method one extraction to help write a second report of Libby's phone. The data was added in the second report, May 24 to August 2024.

So there was no old data that was changed, just data that was. was added to this report. And here is page four of the second report. I explain all those times. So again, I'm just going to say I'm one more time really fast. 131 or at 141 pick of a Snapchat, 143, pick posted of Liberty in the car. 205, a picture posted of Abby on the bridge. 213, video of bridge guy.

21, someone unsuccessfully tries to unlock the phone. 231 p.m. flights are climbed. Two flights are climbed. 232. last time phone is moved. Knowledge C shows that the camera is being used, but it does not show photos that were taken. On page 11, it shows that there's a video capture

with the iPhone at 213. This is an issue. The location, he explains, starts at Delphi High School when this video at 213 starts capturing. But he explains that four seconds into the video that the GPS narrows onto the bridge. He says that's important, because sometimes that can happen.

So even though the GPS gets it wrong right when a video starts recording, it just takes a while to center in, and it did center four seconds into the video onto the bridge, not Delphi High School. The Snapchat data location was turned on, so Snapchat was supposed to get your location. But Apple developers,

they don't want the apps to necessarily wear the battery out of the phone. So even though there's a location data on in the background, Snapchat location in the background is only updated in intervals, not consistently or constantly. And again, he says 232 was the last movement of the phone. But then this is where we get to the issue the defense brings up at 433 a.m. He allegedly gathered info that there were texts and missed calls that came in and on Libby's phone at around 4.30 in the morning.

And this is what the defense has always stated, that they believe that the phone was turned off and turned back on, and then perhaps maybe the time of death is uncertain, right? Like, there's all these thoughts. Well, according to Cecil, he said that he gathered info that the phone was never turned off. So that's interesting to me. This idea that maybe the phone was turned off and turned back on by someone at four and all these texts came in.

He says that he gathered info that shows that the phone was never turned off. And then they're also asked and there was never any movement after that, after that time at 232. And he said, no, there was never any movement by the phone after 232 and the phone was not turned off. And then he also said that between the time of the last movement of the phone and the missed, text and calls that came in around 430, there are FaceTime calls and other texts that come in during this time. And when around that 4.30 p.m., they received 19 SMS messages. Don't quote me on that. Now I'm like reading my notes a little insecure. When all of the text messages came in, oh, at 406 p.m., for example, there was a text received from Becky Patty

and it said you need to call me now with four exclamation points. Several messages came in at 433am to Libby's phone. 15 to 20 messages all came in at once. And then it is asked to Cecil, can you explain that? And this is a direct quote from him. Based on the data I have,

I don't know. So in other words, he cannot explain why. 15 to 20 messages all came in at once at 433am in quotes based on the data I know I have I don't know based on the data I have I don't know direct quote but a 434 am that is the last activity on Libby's phone and then it lost power it does not turn back on until 306 p.m. and it's turned back on by Lieutenant Bunner who now has the phone after they found the girl's bodies at the crime scene 3.06 p.m. on Valentine's Day, 2017. We then have a break

for the afternoon. We come back. And then on page 11, he explains, this is another thing that gets confusing, a Snapchat of Abby walking on the Monon High Bridge, that photo that we've seen that she posted to her Snapchat, they did not find that picture on her device. And he doesn't know why. there are other all the other Snapchat photographs that are posted on the Snapchat are on her device but this one photo was not found on her device

and they don't know why then it is asked of him how many steps are in a flight of stairs when it comes to Apple Health and he said about 16 steps and you have to go approximately 20 feet in elevation then there's a cross-exam and there are Snapchat picks are continued. She's really pushing the cross-exam is really pushing these Snapchat picks and how there's a Snapchat

missing and how that could be. Where is this Snapchat if it's not on the phone? You know, then they ask this and it's really interesting. They say there's a shutdown log and every time you turn offer on your phone, phone, it resets the log. So they asked, the defense asked the question, when Bunner restarted the phone on the 14th of

February at that 306 p.m., it restarted the shutdown log, didn't it? And Cecil answers, correct. And the jury will never have that info. Is that right? The defense says? And he writes correct. Someone explained that to me. It seems really

important, and I don't understand what the shutdown log is. There's Apple messaging. is brought up now. So if user A has an Apple, iPhone, and user B has an Android, that means that the text is an SMS, which stands for short message service. I was today years old when I learned that. I did not know that SMS stands for short message service. So if someone has an Android and someone has an iPhone, it's an SMS. They don't need the internet. They are delivered differently. He says that is correct. So the question the defense is bringing up. So during this time that the phone

received these alleged FaceTime calls and at 4.06 p.m. on the 13th, at 4.33 a.m. on the 14th, it received zero SMS messages that needed a tower to send. And at 433, Aosci-all of a sudden receives 15 SMS messages. And when I'm hearing this, by the way, I'm thinking myself, well, this makes sense because there are times when I do get messages that I'm an iPhone user and my Android friends, my iPhone messages will come in sometimes and my Android friends, they won't come in. So to me, I'm like, okay, this is making sense to me. Like, if, okay, but wait for it. Let's keep going. But the SMS messages are timestamped at the time stamped at the time they're received. So if an SMS message doesn't come in right away,

when it's received and when it's actually sent is when it's time stamped, like when we actually get the message. So it may be unknown if the messages came on time or late because it just shows the time they arrive. And that is correct. So now the defense says, explains that with an iPhone messaging, with iPhone messaging, if it's late, it's time stamped at the time the first attempt was made. So in other words, if those came in late, they would be timestamped earlier. So she said, you really can't be certain whether the FaceTime's came on time or whether the I messages came on time. Like you don't know that they really came throughout the night. This is the defense arguing.

And Cicill was like kind of like, yeah, you're right, correct. That was kind of a well moment. I'm like, wait. So now we're back to square one. Why, why, right? Why did all these messages come in at 430 to Libby's phone the morning of February 14th, 2017? And do we really know that other FaceTime messages or iPhone messages were coming in before then throughout the night?

I guess I'm back to not being completely sure. And then the defense states this. There is nothing on this device that ties Richard Allen to Libby or Abby. Is that correct? And Cecil says, correct. And then she states, there is nothing, it's Augie. There is nothing on this device that ties Richard Allen to the murders of Libby and Alvi. Is that correct?

And Cecil says, that is correct. I have to point this out. I actually disagree with his answer. And let me explain why. I believe his answer should be that he doesn't know if there's anything on the device that ties Richard Allen to the murders. Because the prosecution, at one point,

we're at the trial of Richard Allen, which means that the prosecution at one point is going to assert that bridge guy is Richard Allen. Whether that's true or not, we don't know. Whether the jury's going to buy it, we don't know. But the prosecution has not asserted this yet, but they're certainly preparing to assert that bridge guy is Richard Allen. And when that happens, because it's going to happen,

they will assert that bridge guy, aka Richard Allen, was captured on Libby's phone. So in my opinion, the answer should have not been correct. The answer by Cecil should have been, he's not sure. Because if the prosecution asserts their theory

that Richard Allen is bridge guy, and the jury buys it and he is guilty. Thus, there is technically something that ties Richard Allen to the crime. But that's to be determined. And I'm nitpicking now. So I'll move forward. But I just, that was something that bothered me.

Moving on. His answer should have been, I don't know. Now the prosecution brought, now there's redirect by the prosecution. they're explaining that Richard Allen had a cell phone in 2017 and I put, whoa, prosecution finally brought up Richard Allen for like the first time ever. The defense has brought him up, but the prosecution hasn't and we're on day five. This is the first time, the end of, you know, the end of the day that the prosecution is actually naming Richard Allen.

They're saying that Richard Allen had a cell phone in 2017. It was a unique serial number of Richard Allen's cell number. And were you able to compare that to the other devices? is did you know the cell phone the Richard Allen had at this time? And they, he explains that they analyzed phones of Richard Allen and other electronics, but when they searched his phone, they were never able to find the phone that Richard Allen had in 2017,

thus it could never be analyzed. So there you go. And after 232 p.m. Oh, I read to say that the phone stopped. And, oh, and then they go into after 232 p.m. Did the phone ever move again? and he states no. Okay.

So then this is towards the end of the day. And there are jury questions. They're asked if any jurors have questions. Again, there were no questions after the autopsy. And after the jury questions are collected, there is a massive sidebar. Like a sidebar that almost put me asleep because they put the white noise on

so we can't hear and it was on for so long. I was getting cozy. I have a blanket with me in the court and is a cushion for my seat. And I was getting cozy. And we're not sleeping too much at night so that we can get into the courtroom. And so boom, massive sidebar. I'm like, what's this about? Well, they conclude the sidebar and they come out and I'll just say this with so many

questions from the jury. There might have been nearly 10 questions from the jury. I've never seen so many questions from the jury. from the jury and it was all over all about Cecil's testimony. Some of the questions, admittedly, I didn't really understand, but I will tell you what they were mostly about. They were mostly about the missing photo that was seen on the Snapchat, but missing from Libby's device.

So that, that photo that appeared on Snapchat that they were never able to find on Libby's device, that's where most of the questions stem from. And they asked what that meant. And they asked, actually, one of the jurors asked if that technically meant that Libby could have posted the photo using somebody else's device. And Cecil essentially answered technically, yeah, that could be one reason. So, I mean, the jury's going there. I thought that was interesting.

One juror asked what the black spaces are in the timeline of the first report. The answer is the battery levels. Another, again, another person asked about the photo depicting the bridge with, didn't make it on Libby's, somehow it wasn't extracted from Libby's phone. Someone was asking how does a phone receive texts or FaceTime calls? He didn't really have an answer, didn't understand it. question. The jury is asking if they checked, if he checked the cell towers that day to figure out. So a lot of questions now about the 430, like all the texts coming into Libby's phone at

430, a lot of questions about that too. And so one juror asked, well, did you check the cell towers and how they reacted to the phone? And he's explained that no, he wouldn't do that, but that another investigator would, that it wouldn't be his job to check that. I wrote again, so many juror questions. Then somebody else asked, of Snapchat videos could be deleted in knowledge-seed data with an app usage. He didn't understand that question. Neither do I. Then somebody else is asking if a pick could not be saved due to battery life.

Someone else asked where the Snapchat picks were saved. That was in the Snapchat cache and in her photos. Oh, and in the app data. And these sort of questions continued. And that was a day, today. And they called it a day. So there you go. So I'll look at some questions now.

This is a great first one. Lighter was what they had on the screen. And if you look it up, it is another term for, I'll tell you. I'll read it. Because I was confused as well. But that was absolutely what was on the screen. Googled it. It's another term for liver mortis, also known as post-mortem vividity or post-mortem.

I'm not going to try to pronounce that word. It's a post-mortem change that occurs when blood pools in the lower parts of the body after death. This pooling causes the skin to discolor, ranging from pink to dark purple. Thank you, AI overview. I am going to look at everything you guys have been sending now. And we'll, if you have a question, put a giant question mark on it and I'll answer some questions. And thank you, everyone. It means a lot.

Thank you, Grandma Michigan. Interesting theory. Thank you, S.C. Libby was forced to put them on because it was easier. Oh my gosh. I know. I can't stop crying for days. I'm going to probably have some time to myself.

It was, you guys, it's heavy, man. It's heavy stuff. And the more I learn, the more just horrible it gets. I can't imagine a worst nightmare. And this town is so tiny and so tight knit. And to think it could happen there, I've been to this beautiful spot. Thank you so much, Alina. Thank you for taking the time to be in Indiana and cover this case.

Sammy Day, thank you for gifting. membership. Lynn, thank you for being a member for 19 months. Thank you for keeping us informed. You are welcome. It is not easy, but thank you for appreciating this. Thank you, Rosemary. Thank you, Deborah.

Thank you so much. All right. Let's get to these questions. Okay, I'm looking now. I saw it as one person asked if Dr. John was in chat. He is not. He is parenting tonight. I will catch him up though.

That's interesting. Someone says, I have an iPhone user at home. They just told me if using the find my iPhone app, if the phone is changed to lost or stolen, it will power on. That is interesting that people were trying to get into her iPad to find her iPhone that evening. So that is interesting. I know. Keep the victim's families and your thoughts.

I see them every day in my heart just goes out to them. And I can't imagine what all the families are going through. Richard Allen's family too sitting there. Yeah. What about how Libby's back looked? So let's pull that up again. Oh, so we didn't see Libby's back, actually, that I recall. We did see Libby's back at the crime scene.

I won't ever forget that. I didn't notice much because I didn't have anyone pointing out to me what to look for. There was just a lot of blood, but there was no back photo of Libby that I recall from the autopsy photos today. Thank you so much, KCL. We really appreciate you. That is true, Troublemaker Baker. A lot of people are saying who was killed first, they have never stated that. Great question, Rebecca Lee. I want to know now, too, is R.A. right or left-handed?

Heidi, yeah, that's I think a question many people are asking. Sorry, guys, I can't keep up with all the questions. Again, if you have a question that you need me to answer right now, put a red question mark because the chat's going so fast. I can't see everything that's coming through and forgive me if I'm missing something. Wouldn't searchers hear a ringing phone? It makes no sense. You're right. I think that's part of the question is, was there a moment when her phone wasn't catching service? Was it turned on? there's certainly a lot of theories out there. Wooden searchers here are ringing his phone. I'll say this, though.

I went out to the area where they were found. I went to the cemetery. I've gone through the woods. They've gone to the bridge. Well, it's true that there's a lot of leaves right now because it's October. And in February, there were no leaves. They were all on the ground.

This is a very dense wooded area. And I'm personally not surprised that nobody found them until the next day. I don't know why a phone wasn't ringing. I don't know. Maybe they also put the phone on silent, right? They haven't said. Maybe the girls were hiding the phone and they certainly didn't want the phone to ring

while they were with him. It's a great question, Lynn. I'd love to know that. Did they try to lift fingerprints off of Libby's phone to be determined? I would hope they tried. They did not really discuss the blood on Libby's legs today. oddly. I think that the theory is that there was just a lot, but they didn't really, or if

you did, I missed it, but no, they didn't discuss the blood on Libby's legs today in detail. We do not know if there was DNA taken off of Libby and Libby's bodies or personal effects that tie, that are a tie to their murders. There was DNA taken from their bodies. We learned that yesterday about all the evidence that was taken and swabbed from their bodies and we learned about the essay kits that were taken. But as of right now, we have not heard of any DNA that was found that would connect the DNA of a killer. Great question, Gray, is the jury paying attention? They absolutely are. And they are taking a lot of notes. And as you can see by the questions they're asking, they have a lot of questions. One thing that's interesting about this jury is there are certainly

some jurors that know about this crime. It's not like other trials I've covered. Like the Davell case case were like if you had seen one documentary on the case, you were like not even considered. Like they wanted every juror to have absolutely zero knowledge about the crime or case. In this situation, I've heard that that wasn't really a mandatory thing. And some of the first juror questions that were asked like on the second day and the third day really had me thinking that these, some of these jurors know more about this crime because some, some of the questions I even thought, we haven't even gotten to that yet. Has that even been mentioned? And I think that just hearing about the questions they're asking, like everyone wanting to know about the missing photo on

the Snapchat, everyone wanting to understand why the phone didn't turn back on at 430. I think that perhaps these are jurors that have been thinking about this case for a while. And I think their questions show that they're paying attention. Some of them looked really distraught today during the autopsies clearly. This is a possibility that's crossed my mind, Skinny P. Do you think Abby may have been alive and grabbing whatever clothes? Perhaps who knows? I don't, you know, I don't know.

Did did the, the killer redress her? Did before or after? Did she put on clothes herself? Did Libby give her clothes? I don't know if we'll ever know. I don't know, but we do know from the debris that was found underneath her sweatshirt that at one point she was lying on the ground without a shirt. Do I find it surprising that Richard Allen's family is there to witness all of this?

You know, I do find it interesting. I find it interesting because this doesn't always happen with the defendant. I've been to quite a few trials now, and they're often not people there for the defendant. It's not uncommon. I don't know what message it gives the jury. And I don't know what they're thinking, this is what I think. This is what I see. I see a tight-knit family.

I see Richard Allen's sister rubbing Kathy Allen's back. I see commitment. And I even see Richard Allen's dad. And it certainly makes me more curious. and again, I don't know what they're thinking. I wonder if they're there to learn, just like the public, because remember, this case has been so tight lip. They really haven't shared that much. I don't believe with, like, Richard Allen's family, you know, allegedly he confessed to some of his family, allegedly, we're going to find out later in the trial.

I think, and I think in many ways, this is how I feel about most defendants family, that in many ways, They two are victims. They didn't ask for this. I say that again with Chad Daybell's children. They, they didn't commit any crime that we know of. We don't know if the defendant committed a crime, but we don't know if they committed any crime.

I don't think they did. And their lives are turned completely upside down. So what do I think it gives a message? I think if I don't think it's bad. ad. But it is interesting. Thanks, Rebecca. Yeah, possibly. Right. That's a great question. You're right, Rebecca. Like, you think there's a lot of things they could perhaps figure out. You know, I want to talk about this. Thank you, Vanessa. Do I think that Libby might have put

more up a fight versus Abby? And that's why it seems like she was targeted or got the worst of it. This has certainly crossed my mind, but let me point out that what was shown in the autopsy today, that neither girl really had defensive wounds. that's surprising. So we're not seeing necessarily that Libby put up a fight, right? There's no evidence of that. What there is evidence of is, and I'm no profiler, but I don't think it takes a genius to see that Libby was certainly targeted

or there was more rage towards Libby. I'm not saying, forgive me. And I'm not saying that the killer, new Libby I don't know I do not know but

at the crime scene there she was targeted there was more rage or something or anger towards Libby absolutely right and from that you can suggest

that she was targeted to begin with you guys have a lot of great theories and I'm not even I think I'm almost just like too exhausted theorize I just, it's just so sad. It's just so sad. I can't imagine any person doing this to two, two innocent girls, best friends out for a walk on a day off of school. I think actually I am going to go take off and rest. It's been a very, very busy day and night and then get back in line at the

courthouse. So I'm going to take off, but thank you everyone for being here. I see that we have 8,000 in chat. I think that shows how many people care about Libby and Abby. And may justice be served, right? Whatever that looks like, may justice be served to these two best friends. Thank you for your support while I'm out here. It means the world and actually makes it possible to be out here. So thank you, thank you. Thank you for subscribing. Thank you for liking. Thank you for your super chats. And I'll just double check speaking of super chats. Make sure I didn't miss anything. Susie, thank you. I will. I will. Or dinner. We're right now just packing peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and

eating them quickly. Had lunch. But I will. Thank you. Get some snacks. Right. Thank you, everyone. Thank you to our moderators. And a big thank you to, again, Christina, who did the sketches today that really helped to drive home how horrible these autopsies were and how important it was to see that. You can find her at Instagram at Hey Christina Mac. Again, she is not asking me to say that. She wanted to do this as a service to Libyan Abbey. I am the one saying that her Instagram is at Hey, Christina Mac. And you can let her know that you're grateful that she was able to do those for us.

All right, guys. We'll see you tomorrow. I sold my car in Carvana last night. Well, that's cool. No, you don't understand. It went perfectly. Real offer down to the penny. They're picking it up tomorrow. Nothing went wrong.

So what's the problem? That is the problem. Nothing in my life goes to smoothie. I'm waiting for the catch. Maybe there's no catch. That's exactly what a catch would want me to think. Wow, you need to relax. I need to knock on wood. Do we have wood? Is this tablewood? I think it's laminated. Okay, yeah, that's good. That's close enough.

Car selling without a catch. So your car today on... Carvana.