Hidden True Crime - Delphi Secrets REVEALED | Hosts of Murder Sheet Podcast Share Shocking Behind-the-Scenes Stories

Episode Date: October 11, 2025

Kevin Greenlee and Aine Cain are a husband and wife duo podcast that covered the Delphi case extensively. Today they talk with Hidden True Crime about what it was like covering the case... from the secrets, to the leaks, and all through the trial... they saw it all. Shadow of The Bridge Book: https://a.co/d/9V44GFf Follow Kevin and Aine/ Murder Sheet Podcast anywhere you get your podcasts: Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/murder-sheet/id1538289354 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5lCbTxX7QAJUgVewVKmApA?si=8f2c11f4f5d04493 About Hidden True Crime What started as a simple conversation at their dinner table became a captivating podcast. Join the dynamic duo of Dr. John Matthias, a criminal psychologist, and Lauren Matthias, an investigative journalist, as they delve into the psychological facets of unthinkable crimes every week. Their unique perspectives and in-depth analysis offer a fresh take on true crime storytelling. Thank you for your support through sponsorships, subscribing, listening, and becoming a Patreon member at⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Patreon.com/HiddenTrueCrime⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Good to see you too. I am here with Kevin Greenlee and Anya Kaine. They are the hosts of the Murder Sheet podcast. A well-known podcast, especially well-known when it comes to the Delphi murders of Abby Williams and Libby German. A heartbreaking, heartbreaking case that we did see justice. We got to know each other freezing in line. overnight, didn't we? I saw, you know, and you are now the authors of a book,

a published by Pegasus Crime, Shadow of the Bridge. I just finished reading it, all my bookmarks sticking out. It's an incredible book, I want to say that. To anyone that honestly really wants to get insight into what the hell was going on in Delphi, this is your book. I just want to say this. It's like a tell-all. It's a part, it's everything that happened, part memoir, part, all the inside tea.

I have had some of people say, what was really happening in Delphi? And if you want to know, this is the book. It was part traumatizing, I'll be honest, remembering. I've never covered a case like that. And I went in, of course, a bright eye and bushy tailed, as I told both of you when we met. And at first it was like, okay, there's some camping. This is exciting. Then it did get pretty intense.

And I took the layers off of the onion bit by bit. And there was certainly a lot going on. And you guys get into it. The Delphi murders and the dark side of the American heartland. The dark side. Right. As you say. The dark side of the murders and the dark side of seeking justice as well, I want to say.

Oh, my goodness. I have so many questions for both of you. But first off, how are you doing since the publishing of your book? Did that sort of feel therapeutic to write? I mean, it was therapeutic to read. Oh, my gosh. That means a lot, Lauren. And also, I'm sorry to Fangirl, but we are so excited for this. We love your show. We just, you know, we met during this crazy situation, but we really came to just so respect you and the work that you guys have done. So just want to say so grateful for you and and your audience just being so open-minded about this case and whatnot. But yeah, no, it was honestly, it was hard writing it. I found elements of it therapeutic, but a lot of elements were kind of re-immersing ourselves

in a really bad situation. And it was, we had to write it pretty quickly right after the trial, essentially. So it was sort of, we're like, out of the frying pan, into the fire in terms of mining some of those memories, the one good side. And I think you've had this experience a little bit too. just interviewing some of the people that you have was getting to connect with some of the people who worked the case and realizing, oh my gosh, it's not just us who got so absorbed by this case. It's all these people. So we're kind of all in that same boat a little bit.

And getting to see the amazing work they did and learn about that was that was therapeutic. Yeah, yeah. I also, I want to say I noticed your acknowledgments at the end of the book. Thank you for putting John and Lauren in there, John and Lorne Mathias. By the way, Kevin and Anya are also married, so we're like a joy, you know, we know what it's like to be married and business partners with your spouse. It's a whole interesting thing, isn't it? Yes, it is. But we'll save that for later. But I noticed, though, how many people you thanked in names I recognize, people that just sat in trial every day. And I thought that was so neat because you do sort of become family. Like you're going through something. together. So you weren't just thinking journalists and reporters, you were thanking people that maybe

offered you a sandwich one day or talked to you about the case and I thought that was really neat to read all of your acknowledgments in the back. We had a lot to be thankful for. People really helped us out and we wouldn't have made it through without forming friendships like yours or like some of these people who just came

and helped us or just bought us food or like sat for us in line. It was such a team effort. The community that grew up around this case by and large is just absolutely wonderful. There are certainly some elements on the fringes that are maybe less than wonderful. But by and large, the majority of the people who became a part of the community around this case did so because they wanted justice for these girls and because they cared deeply about the people at the center of it.

And so we were all kind of united in that. So well said. Yeah, there were a couple times in the book where I cried when we talked about what happened to the girls, Libby's tear. You did share some things that were never heard before, and we are going to get into those. I want everyone to know there are some never heard before parts of this case that are in this book. The sources you have are incredible. You're close to prosecutors, to law enforcement. It was actually Doug Carter that wrote the forward to your book. I actually appreciated how he wrote that too. He said he didn't always agree with you. And I think that's a great relationship to

have too, I want to say. You don't always have to agree. In fact, that's a better relationship, you know, fight it out, argue, see it through a different lens. And so the sources you have are remarkable and the insight you have is really impressive. So we will get to some tea. I want everyone to know. But first off, before we get there, I want to ask how you two got involved in following this case and why and when? Because you certainly took on a prominence in this case as journalists, despite not getting a media pass. You guys had to camp like I did. But tell me how you even got involved in this case before we jump into some of the insights in this book. Yeah, I know. It's a great question. So our weird, meat, cute story was we fell in love over a mutual obsession with an Indiana cold case, the Burger Chef murders.

And Kevin kind of like low-key stalked me on newspapers.com. And then I was really impressed by that. You know, he was an attorney covering that case pro bono for one of the sisters of the victims, kind of helping her with research and dealing with police. And I came into it wanting to write an article on it. So I read the article. But we stayed in touch afterwards. And then we just like fell in love.

It sounds like a bad hallmark movie. I recognize that. Everyone was concerned. But it worked out great. But we were living. in Brooklyn, New York at the time. And then we moved back to Indiana. And that's when I think the interest in Delphi really resurged.

Yeah, when we moved back to Indiana, basically everybody we knew here said you have to cover this Delphi case. And we were a bit reluctant at first because it's such a complicated case and to come in in the middle of it and try to pick up on it. I mean, you know what that's like because you came in at the trial and you feel like there's so much to miss, but you just kind of have to just jump in and go with the flow. And that's ultimately what we did, just because people just kept asking us to cover this case, because there's something about those two girls that just really touches the hearts of people.

I agree. I agree. They're, they definitely stole my heart. It's the reason I covered it. And of course, though, there was an undercurrent of people that I don't, I don't know, honestly, how much they were in it for the girls. I'm going to be honest. Maybe it started that way. You know, maybe they cared. But as it went on, it was certainly confusing to describe when I came home. I always say I came home once to trick or treat on, you know, on Halloween. That was the one time I left.

And originally I didn't know if I was going to go back. And it was the girls that pulled me back. And I remember sort of having a breakdown once I got home, it was like processing everything I'd just been through for those couple of weeks away, you know, and coming back. and crying because I realized after I saw sort of this undercurrent that I did need to go back for the girls, for justice. But tell me a little bit about you guys, I'm going to be honest, you guys wrote a lot about that undercurrent in the book. I don't know what you call it. As you say, the dark side of the American Heartland, I understand that there's a double meeting there.

That's the murders of these girls. but like I said, for me, for me, it was a double meaning. I don't know if it was for you guys, sort of the dark side of seeking justice for these two girls, too. Can you explain? I don't even know how you explain it. You guys wrote a 400-page book about it. But so I don't even know what I'm asking here, but can you guys sort of describe why or how you chose to wrote this book in the format you did sort of delving in to a lot of that? like the drama of covering this too.

Yeah, it was really important to us. Did that be part of the book? And that was something we really had to work hard to explain to people as we were writing it because it's like, you know, when you, you don't want to just dismiss something as awesome, YouTube drama because that sounds like it's not important or it's just, okay, people are fighting in the comments section, whatever. And I understand that. But we felt that what was going on in this case rose to a level of not,

not just people being mean or getting into fights or kind of snarking at each other on Reddit. We were seeing people claiming to hire private investigators to fall around prosecutor Nicholas McLean. We were seeing people working hand in hand with the defense team to shape a narrative in social media. We were seeing like things that were happening in social media actually having an impact on what was going on in the case itself. A leak almost derailed the case. The attorneys of Richard Allen was thrown off and it went all the way to the Indian and the Supreme Court. So we were saying, hey, what's happening online is what's happening in real life here. And it's a really big deal. And so we wanted to intersperse that because it's

just part of the story. And it's more than that. I hope this book is a warning flare to people everywhere that any case can become Delphi. Any case can go this route. If you have all the right kind of ingredients, we can see this again and again and again where you have antisocial behavior online spilling out into real life consequences for people. And we have, as a true crime community, we have to do our part to try to separate ourselves from that. Because if we don't, in 10 years, saying you like true crime might be something where people are like, so do you like doxing people and like threatening the prosecutor? Like we don't want to be associated with this. You know, It's like it's the fringe element.

It's a small group, but they're so loud and they are so embarrassing. They make a big impact. They make a big real life impact. Yeah. I mean, look at the families of the girls. These are people who lost their daughters, granddaughters, sisters, cousins, these beautiful kids. And they've been dragged through the mud. They've been stalked.

They've been harassed. They've had photos of these girls lying dead in the forest sent to them. They've been through the ringer. And they're innocent victims in this, but people treat them so poorly. So like that should outrage everybody. And it really affects the public narrative and the public understanding of the case. I think what you said earlier was so smart. When you said a lot of people were not in this for the girls.

They were in this for attention or downloads. And as a result of that, I feel that if people listen to us or if they watched you, they got a sense of here is what is actually happening in that courtroom. But if they chose to follow the case through other outlets, they did not get that understanding, frankly. And they were left really confused about the case and surprised by the verdict and are left plagued with doubt that really isn't justified. At my bank, I was literally getting pennies using wealthfronts.

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a Wealthfront cash account, no account fees, no minimums, and no strings attached. Get started today at Wealthfront.com. Clients were paid $1,000 for their testimonials, creating a conflict of interest. Outcomes vary. 3.3%. Base-a-p-p-y-as-a-ply as of January 30th, 2026, is representative variable and earned on funds swept to program point. 0.65% new client boosts for three months on up to $150,000. Direct deposit $1,000 a month and fund an investing account for a 0.25% increase. Cash account offered by Wealthfront Brokerage LLC member FINRA SIPC, not a bank. These and eligibility requirements may apply to certain checking features of the cash account. Before I switched to wealthfront, my APY was probably 0.1. Once I switched to chiching.

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Direct deposit $1,000 a month and fund an investing account for a 0.25% increase. Cash account offered by Wealthfront Brogerage LLC, member FINRA, SIPC, not a bank. And I'll just answer the next question that I half for you. People have said to me, well, what do you mean by that? That if we're watching someone else, here's your, here's your answer. Read the book. Read the book. I like you guys have had a hard time explaining. You really laid it out. And I learned a lot too. Coming on late, a lot of the dynamics that I fully didn't understand like how something started or how a snowball got rolling, I finally found the answers in your book. I was like, oh, a light went on.

I get it now. I didn't know that happened, you know, in the background, you know, two years before trial or whatever the case may be. Thank you, Kevin. Yeah, that makes sense. And that's why you're of you and your team, though, because like, we were worried when we started talking to you guys that you guys were going to think we were nuts. We were like, yeah, it's a circus. I feel like we were smoking a cigarette even though we weren't you know and and I'm like here are these nice people coming from out of state trying to do a solid YouTube program and just trying to do their jobs and they're obviously have great reputations because all of our listeners were like look for Lauren and we're like hell yeah but then I'm like we sound insane and I you guys just came into it with such open minds and

you covered it so well and it just made us feel like okay we're not the fringe lunatics who were actually wrong and everyone else is right it was like you guys were seeing things and you weren't coming in there with a bias. You weren't coming in there to settle scores or I don't like this guy or this guy. You were just coming in and saying, I want to just get the truth. Yeah. Well, you know what? I probably went in. I've covered a lot of trials now and I probably do put in more opinion in other trials, more sort of my remarks. And I think at first, that's what I thought I was going to do. And I've shared this before. My listeners are like, yeah, yeah, yeah, we know. And then as as it went on, each day I started doing less and less of that.

You know, just like I am just going to read from my notes and try. And I would rush home or to the Airbnb is what I mean by home. Wherever I'm staying is home for me. I've traveled a lot. I rush back to the Airbnb and I would jump on as quickly as I could so I couldn't forget. So it's fresh because some people would say, how do you have such good notes? The notes are only half of it. The notes helped me remember the rest of it.

Right. So it'd be reading my handwritten notes and then reminding myself that would remind me exactly what happened and just share verbatim exactly what happened in the courtroom because I realized that was what was sort of missing in Delphi was just someone saying and this happened and this happened and of course and I want to point this out too you know that had Judge Goll allowed cameras in the courtroom

or a media room perhaps that wouldn't have been so needed it sounds like at the end a little bit of a spoiler alert you still think perhaps Judge Goll maybe should have let There'd be a media room? Is that true? I think at the very least of media room. I understand cameras in the courtrooms are controversial, and that can be seen as intrusive for victims' family members.

So I think there should have been, but I respect people's different opinions that maybe that wouldn't have been good. But I think a media room really would have helped the mainstream press just do a more thorough job because they were, even though they got the press passes and we were all very jealous and mad at them. I mean, not really, But I remember I used to like shake my fist at some of them as they would walk by, like, let us in, jokingly. But I think they would have, there were like little mistakes here and there that could have gotten corrected.

And once they left for the day, they were locked out too. So I think they weren't set up for success. And I think a lot of them really tried hard and did a really good job. It's not that it was a disaster. But I think something was lost in not having a media room. Yeah. Yeah. I concur.

I've tried to understand why she made the decision. I think I do understand it. I think I understand it better even actually after reading your book. At the same time, I think that could have curbed a lot. I also want to point out, you said something that I want to repeat, online antisocial behavior can spill into real life consequences. And you're right. A lot of it is just YouTube drama, creator arguments.

No, this was antisocial behavior, online behavior that turned into real life. consequences. In the end, justice was served. The family was recently awarded at the Clue Awards for the crime fighter, you know, along with Jerry Holman was there, and Nick McLuhan, the prosecutor. But remnants still, you know, happen. I still get comments every day about my Delphi coverage, you know, even though I wasn't even doing it except beyond the trial. So, so sitting down to write this book. Well, first off, you jump into the trial. No, I want to get into nitty gritty first.

Before we get into the book, you jump into this case. You know, you're, you're weary and you jumped in. And when was it first, like, did you ever think about backing out again after you jumped in? Or did you say, you know what? This is so important. We have to keep covering this case. I think we kept on trying to jump out of that pool. Like here and there, we would sort of.

be like, oh my gosh, this is insane, you know, because the crazy online atmosphere predates trial for sure. And, you know, we came into this very naive thinking, I'm a journalist, he's an attorney. We're going to provide some common sense coverage and people are going to appreciate that. And most people did. But then there'd be other people who were like, you should die and we're going to come kill you because of this. And it was like, what? Like, so it was scary at times. And we were just like, who are these people that are so mad? And then we figured, out, oh, it's because they're obsessed with their own personal theory of the case. And if the facts were reporting contradict that, that's threatening to them because it's a blow

to their ego. And so we realized, okay, these are people not to take super seriously. But it became a headache dealing with them over time. And we had to kind of adjust how we interacted with people. And that was even before the trial. And then during the trial, I think we had some experiences similar to what you discussed, where you had a bit of a breakdown once you were away from it. There were times it was so hard because you weren't really eating, you were barely sleeping, you're just getting up, going to court, and hearing all this misery.

And it was emotionally awful. And there were times during the trial, we thought, let's just go home. But what brought us back was thinking about those girls and thinking about their families. I'm not sure if people understand how small that courtroom is. And so no matter where you sit, you would be relatively close to the family members of those girls. And they didn't have the option to go home. They had to be there because it was their children. It was their grandchildren.

And you would sit there and sometimes you would hear them react to things. You would hear them cry when certain pictures of the crime scene were shown. And you think about that and you think about the fact that there were other people in that courtroom who frankly, in my view, were not giving accurate reports about what was happening. And you realize you really owe it to that family and to those girls to be a voice for the truth. And that's ultimately what kept us going back day after day. Spite and also feeling like we owed it to the case and the girls. Yeah. Yeah. And thank you for doing that, by the way.

truly. I mean, I felt like we were, we were all kind of in it together at that point. And it was just like, we need to have the sane, the sane people in here. And I know there were concerted efforts to like, you know, make sure us and you didn't get seats. And it was so chaotic. But I feel like ultimately, I'm really the proud of the work we did. I'm proud of the work you did. I feel like there were people in there trying to get to the truth.

And I think it's not out. And I want to say a lot of people online were trying to get to the truth too. But again, there wasn't, there wasn't a communication from the courtroom. And so a lot of people online watching multiple YouTube shows were also trying to get to the truth. But it was confusing. And I want to give empathy to those people, too, that were trying and confuse how to get it because it was very difficult. And you would listen to two different YouTubers and you get two very different views. And I have empathy for those people that are trying to figure out what was going on.

And you did talk about that, too, how the different. used YouTubers for the defense. And I want to say, too, that I actually heard from a national producer who spoke to one of the defense attorneys who actually said to her, YouTubers are now part of our defense. That was during the trial that she stated that she spoke to, she was a national mainstream media producer. who said, yeah, I spoke to one of the defense attorneys. He said, yeah, YouTubers are now part of our job. And you talked about that, how they use YouTubers. Can you, maybe that's heavy. Again, read the book. You're like, this is what we wrote the book, Lauren.

I mean, it's embarrassing. It's embarrassing to have an attorney say something like that. Listen, it's perfectly fine to pay attention to how the media and how social media is reacting. and maybe that to some degree can be a gauge of how the public might react or how a jury might react. But it's a different thing. Like if we wanted an honest assessment of how we were doing as podcasters, would we go to the people who think we can do no wrong or, you know, like, okay, we love everything you do. We're never going to criticize you.

Or are you going to go to people who you know that you can get an honest reaction from? And maybe they support us, but they're willing to say, Anya and Kevin, you know, you sound kind of annoying when you do this. You have to be looking at sources that are. not just the fringe or are not just people who are making memes about how you're their daddies and how you're so hot. Like you don't want that because they're not serious people and they're not going to reflect what a jury's doing. And as far as getting the word out there, they don't, I mean, these are people who are largely by and large talking to each other. They're harassing everybody else,

but they're doing like these small audiences, these small views and they're mostly communicating with each other and speaking for a limited group. So they're not a reflection as the, you know, as traditional media would be of the public. So it's just like I kind of understand where they were coming from as far as courting the YouTubers, but it was just like very done in kind of a stupid way and just, I don't know.

It was just like, it's embarrassing to be bragging about it now because. I think it's important to stress there are a lot of YouTubers out there who are great. Like yourself. And one of the things that makes... And smaller YouTubers too. Smaller YouTubers and some YouTubers that don't get everything right, but we try our hardest and, you know.

These are the crank YouTubers. One of the things that makes you so great is you have the background as a journalist. So even though you're not working for a big mainstream publication or what have you now, you're still using those standards. And there are other YouTubers out there. Maybe they don't have that background, but they still try to use those standards. They try to get to the truth. But other YouTubers don't have that background or that level of experience.

And so they may be likely if a defense attorney goes to them and says something crazy, they may get on their live that night and just spread it to the world. So using YouTubers like that who don't have the benefit of your background or experience, that can be a way for defense attorneys to get out some very toxic messages without having to be the bearer of that tidings themselves and not break a gag rule like there was in this case. But again, it was just ineffective. I think that's what it was ultimately ineffective in this case.

We talked to a juror. The jury was not impressed by anyone's theatrics. They were looking at what is the facts, what are the facts and the timeline that is relevant here. So unless you happen to get a conspiracy theorist on your jury, it's really not a winning strategy. And that's why it surprised me that they did it. They were playing to a very specific corner of YouTube. Not even all YouTubers, you know, just like not people who hadn't made out their minds or people who felt one way or another.

Just people who were very specifically conspiracy oriented. And that was a mistake. Yeah, I agree. Before I switched to wealth front, my APY was probably zero point one. Like, it was a joke. I was literally getting pennies. Once I switched chiching. With a Wealthfront cash account, earn up to 4.2% APY on your cash.

The high APY with Wellfront was a clear winner. There are no petty fees. Every month, there's this much that I'm getting an interest in. I didn't have to do anything. My money is working hard on its own, and I can trust Welfront is taking care of me. Earn more on your uninvested cash with a Wealthfront cash account, no account fees, no minimums, and no strings attached. Get started today at Wealthfront.com. Clients were paid $1,000 for their testimonials, creating a conflict of interest.

Outcomes vary. 3.3%. Base API as of January 30th, 2026 is representative, variable, and earned on funds swept to program banks. 0.65% new client boosts for three months on up to $150,000. Direct deposit $1,000 a month and fund an investing account for a 0.25% increase. Cash account offered by Wealthfront brokerage LLC member FINRA SIPC, not a bank. These and eligibility requirements may apply to certain checking features of the cash account. one of the biggest stories leading up to the trial involved both of you and that was the leaking of the crime scene photos and while I hadn't I had known that and I had listened to enough of murder sheet to sort of understand how that happened and how somebody even lost their life your chapters about that actually I just want to say really really pulled me in and I learned so much more and I felt like I was there. I can't imagine being a

part of something like this where you take me back there. This is this is all in the book, but the leaking of the crime scene photos actually started with the two of you and went from there. Can you take me back to that day where you got an email, opened it up, saw what you saw and what you did next. Yeah. So this is something that actually it happened in early October. I think it was I think it was October 5th where we, it's very late. A year before the trial. A year before the trial, past midnight, we get a message from somebody who says that they want to show us these crime scene picks. And our standard response back then was sort of like to disbelieve everybody and like, sure, you know, whatever. Send us what you want to send us. Like we don't.

don't, you know, think, our, whenever that happened, inevitably, it would be just some made-up nonsense and you could just ignore it. But, um, I see Kevin looking at his phone and he looks horrible. You, he looks stricken. And I'm just like, what, what, what do you, like, what's going on? And he just looks up and he says, it's the girls. And I'm just like, oh, I was start, I just start crying because I just like, I know it's going to be. It's, and it's really bad. We see what we have and we're like, this is a catastrophic leak. We don't know what's going on.

And we realize this is disastrous for multiple reasons. First of all, obviously, it is a gross violation of the privacy of these girls and their families. And if those pictures got out there and spread on the internet, this is something that would haunt those families for the rest of their lives. lives. That is horrible. On top of that, frankly, it is a threat to the rights of the defendant, Richard Allen, because it seemed to us that if people saw pictures of this crime, of what he was accused of doing, it might inflame people against him and affect his right to a fair trial. And we were under the impression of this time that no one else had these pictures but us. And so we thought, let's not report it to the public. Let's try to plug this. So no one even has to know about

this. And so the next day, we contacted law enforcement and we also contacted the defense and said, we don't know who leaked these ultimately. But you guys need to know that this happens so you can plug it. Yeah, we got very different responses from both of those groups that kind of are telling in retrospect. Interesting. And, and then from there, you learned that other people had also received them. It became bigger and bigger. And I'll say the book sort of took me through those emotions as it was just, you could just sense a cloud of despair sort of coming on as it got bigger and bigger. And, uh, and in the end, that informant ended up taking his life. Not the man who

messaged us but the one who sent them to him The one that sent it to him Thank you It was horrible and you know It was it was like We're dealing with the human tragedy That are the Delphi murders And now we've added another death

To this overwhelming tragedy It was that was like the worst news possible To hear that somebody down The chain of the leak Had actually died And as a result of this It felt such overwhelming you know, doom. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. It was heartbreaking to read. You also shared a lot of insider info

about the trial through your incredible sources. And like I said, everyone you were talking to, we know from sitting in the back, we couldn't always see Richard Allen, right? We couldn't always see. I mean, we could when he turned around and he did turn around a lot and or looking to side or if we had a really great seat that day, if we had camped out long enough and not eaten, you know, the last six meals, you know, and got a good enough seat. But so you were able to bring inside. I just want to share to some things that were happening in court. Let me see.

I have like all these bookmarks here. Can we talk about his threat to McLean? That's where I'm going. I wanted to read it. Why don't you just talk and I'll keep looking for it? Totally. So this was a really interesting insight that we heard. And, you know, with the book, as with the podcast, you know, we would go with something if we had it from multiple sources, obviously.

You know, you don't want to rely on a single source that can't be corroborated. And there were no cameras in the courtrooms, unfortunately. So we heard that Richard Allen actually was not as not super well behaved in parts of the trial, as people might think from the outside. side. I mean, there was never any dramatic incidents or whatnot with him, but we learned that he had actually said something to the effect of, and I believe this occurred during McLean's closing argument, that, and of course, closing arguments in Indiana, the prosecutor does their closing argument, then the defense, and then the prosecutor gets to do a rebuttal statement. And so I think in between his opening and the, you know, prior to doing the rebuttal statement,

Alan made some kind of comment like if if Nick keeps pointing at me I'm going to do something I'm going to basically jump up and attack him and this got back to McLeeland who I'm sure you observed and I think you've interviewed him he's a he's a very determined person he's very he's a tough guy I mean like he's somebody who's going to like get it done and he's not afraid to stand up for victims and in this case I think his heart really went out to Libby and Abbey and he was going to fight for justice for that. But his reaction was just like, I'm just going to point some more. So throughout his rebuttal statement, I think he just keeps on pointing at Alan. And of course, Alan doesn't do anything because he's, you know, McLean is like an adult male who's not like two little girls alone in the forest. So, I mean, he's, I think he's the kind of person who will only pick on someone who's smaller and weaker than him. So he ultimately did not attack McLean, but he was making statements the effect that he was going to. if you talk to McLean, he'll tell you he really hates bullies. That really triggers something inside him and he wants to stand up for bullies.

And so I think that was part of McLean's motivation there. And also when I think about McLean, he's one of the people that I think people don't really understand or appreciate how dedicated he was to this case and to getting justice. Nicholas McLean's dream in life is to become a judge. And he had not one, but two opportunities to become a judge during this case. And he turned them both down because he wanted to stay and do what he could for Abby and Libby. And as a result of that, he may never become a judge now. But he felt that it was worth setting his dream aside to get justice for these girls. and I think that really says something about his character.

I absolutely agree. I read that in your book. I did not know that until I read your book. And that was a very touching part of the book where he actually went up to the families and said, heads up, I want your blessing. Before I do this, there's this opportunity I have. He let the first one go. The second one was here.

They kindly, warmly gave him their blessing, sadly, I'm sure. And then after receiving their blessing, thought I can't do it. I've got to do this for the kids, for the girls and their family. Yeah. Yeah. I also want to point out, you shared a lot about what we were not able to see in testimony and trial. And you explained this one so well, something that there was video of Richard Allen doing about sort of showing his anger that prosecutors wanted to be able to share in trial. Judge Gull ultimately said no, it has nothing to do with the crimes. But let me just read this to you. It was after he was, Allen's moved back to Cass County, right? Because there

was so much controversy surrounding where he was. He had just been moved, Richard Allen had just been moved back to Cass County. This is prior to the trial. And everybody thought Allen's defense team thought it would be a boon to his mental health. But it did not work out that way, just a few weeks into his stay in the jail, something went very wrong for Alan. Sitting on his bed during lunch, Alan was calm one moment, then erupted, screaming, yelling, shrieking, he declared himself innocent. He threatened to kill the deputies on guard. Then staring at the camera in his cell, he drew a finger sharply across his throat. A slit throat, of course, was the cause of death for Libby and Abby. In a matter of moments, Alan was back to normal. He protested.

that he did not need to be restrained and hauled to a padded cell. He was quiet and complacent once more. Allen's entire outburst had been caught on surveillance footage, McLeeland, and the entire prosecution were struck by what they saw. They believed that if the jury witnessed the angry Allen making threats, they would likely vote to convict him. The problem was the footage, as damning as it was, had nothing directly to do with the crime,

although it seemed to reveal something crucial about Alan and his instability and his temper. It was not clear if he would ever allow the jury to see it, she did not allow the jury to see it. And there were several of those things. Also, you know, the judge ruling for the defense at times, too, I want to point out, you know, although this idea that she was only, you know, for the prosecution, she actually did help the defense out, including the time where the prosecution wanted to hold the defense in contempt of court for the leaking of the crime scene photos.

And ultimately, it was Judge Gold that said, yeah, you haven't proven that. you know, Judge Gold did side with them several times. I think she really tried to be fair. I think, although I will agree with you. She should have allowed more transparency. That one was difficult for me. But I do believe that she did what she felt was best for the case. Yeah.

Yeah, there's a myth out there, as you just said, that she was just always doing whatever the prosecution wanted. And that is just not true. Yeah, I mean, the prosecution was desperate to get that in. They kept pushing for it. You know, witnesses would allude to it. and there would be objections. I mean, they were trying their darndest because, I mean, you get to see Richard Allen go, I mean, there's, there's something very powerful about that. But I think Judge

Gall saw that as just, that's prejudicial. That's not directly related. It's not evidence. So she was not going to let that in because it was not going to be the right thing as, as for protecting his rights. So, yeah, hearing about that was just chilling because I think Richard Allen is a man who's highly manipulative and also kind of like, how do I, I don't, this is going to be stupid. and and Dr. John would probably have a better way of putting this. But I just kind of see him as like this kind of big baby. He's constantly like falling down, getting hurt, crying for mommy, crying for his wife. It just, but like he can't cope with anything.

And I think that's what the girls ran into that day. I think he's like has this power fantasy that's going wrong. And he has this temper tantrum. And I don't want to say temper tantrum. I don't want to sound like I'm minimizing it. But he's just like this pathetic figure. And, you know, like a big baby, except instead of being an innocent infant, he's just a horrible adult man. But yeah, I think we saw that.

I think we saw that anger in him through that video. But unfortunately, well, I mean, I think it was probably the right legal call. But we were certainly curious about it because it was like, we're all hearing about this. What's going on? Yeah. Absolutely. I agree. And also the eating of the post-it notes.

He would write something on a post-it note and then put in his mouth and eat it, you know, during trial. very interesting um and you know you said dr john could explain that better kevin you could explain this better i'm not an attorney luckily you're here with us but even when it comes to sort of being able to allow that surveillance footage of of richard allen in i almost feel like they should have been able to because of how the defense argued that he was emotionally unstable and coerced and had they sort of tried to imply that he had no violent tendencies and that he was he was in this situation that he couldn't get out of and treated so poorly that he made these confessions because he had no choice. In my legal opinion that didn't go to law school, I feel like there is

some relevancy to them being able to show that, to counter that. But nonetheless, I tend to agree with you. The defense really making his mental stability a key part of their defense. I think they opened the door and I think it probably should have been allowed, but I do understand that Gull was really trying to make whatever the verdict was appeal proof. And so she was trying to, if there was a close call, I'm going to give it to the defense. Yeah. Judge Gull also received threats from Richard Allen. Is that true? Yes, that is correct. So Alan made statements to his own family that if they showed up for his sentencing hearing, he would hurt the judge. So he's once again using manipulation and the threat of violence to get what he wants. Yeah, fascinating. It is really

interesting. When you finally find your thing, you want the whole world to know about that thing. So you use a thing called Canva to make it an even bigger and better thing. Whether you want to create flyers for that thing, make presentations for that thing, or design merch for that thing. You can do anything. So people can see your thing, feel your thing, love your thing. The next thing you know, it's a thing. Canva, the thing that makes anything a thing. Um, one moment, uh, I learned this in trial. I'll be honest. I didn't learn that everybody learned it in trial, if that makes sense. When you're newer to a case, you don't know what's maybe knowledge out there that you're just maybe learning and picking up on that you missed and what is knowledge that is brand new to everyone.

So this was a moment in trial that I remember profoundly because it brought tears to my eyes and actually reading you guys talking about it also brought tears to my eyes. But I didn't realize that everyone, you know, was learning it there for the first time. but they were going through the crime scene photos, the horrendous crime scene photos. It was Cicero, and he was guiding the jury through them. And like he did for that three-day hearing, he pointed out the pools of blood

and what they told of Libby's desperate last moments. Pictures of leaves smeared with blood came up on the screen. Throughout the testimony, the crime scene expert referred to the girls as Ms. German and Ms. Williams. he wanted to afford the girl's dignity and care. They were gone, but they were still deserving of respect, and so were their families. Utrell asked about a strange pattern of blood on Libby's cheek. Moisture had rolled across her face, diluting the blood.

Cisero said, quote, absent a raindrop, it would be consistent with a tear. Libby had cried, she had suffered. Her final moments were spent in anguish. Sitting at the prosecution table, Holman blinked. Not even he had known about the tear. He felt like crying too. Members of the gallery began to sniffle. Becky wept, Libby's grandmother.

Libby had been crying out there in the woods. Becky had not been able to be there to help her granddaughter to comfort her, to protect her. Utrell left that day weary. In his years as a prosecutor, he had seen many evil things. A man bound shot and slashed in the throat over a little marijuana and $100.

A young girl assaulted, an elderly woman raped and beaten to death. And now the images of Libby and Abby on the forest floor. He never wanted to see those crime scene photos again. And I just wanted to share that too because what you had to see in covering this trial was horrendous. What I had to see, what everyone in the gallery had to see. And, you know, I just, you know, to remind us all that this really is about justice. and I will never be able to get that tear stain out of my mind because I saw it, you know.

And so I just also want to thank you for in this book, I felt that not only did you take us into this trial drama, but you really did bring home the lives of these girls, these children, whose lives were taken as well as the families. You also mentioned them bringing food to all of us in line. As we weren't allowed to eat. Thank you, Judge Gull. But we did our best.

So I really do want to commend both of you for this remarkable book that you've written. It's an important book, again, because of the lack of transparency in this case, because of the passion and emotion that this case has brought to so many across the world. Your book is very, very important, I think. Thank you. Yeah. I'm also really grateful that you did take the time to write. it right after because I think, again, the same way that I would rush back to the Airbnb and share what I knew the moment I had it because I knew in an hour some of it might leave me. I think it's so

important you guys did this so quickly after trial. And so I want to thank you for taking the time to do that. I know it's hard to write a book because I've tried and I haven't. So. But thank you so much. I think that makes me feel better about it because maybe it was fresh in our minds now that I think about it. The time we're just like, oh, we're back and, you know, mentally in Delphi, but at the same time, maybe that was fresher, because the emotions were so raw for us. I'm sure there were for you and everyone who was immersed in this, but it was just like, I think we were able to channel some of that into the writing. Yeah. Yeah. How do you feel about everything else that has been played out since the trial? I didn't think I was going to ask this,

and I didn't tell you guys I was going to ask this, but we've had documentaries and people have continue to share about the case, definitely less so, now that justice has been served. There was hopes of appeals, you know, by a lot of the defense and things that seem to settle down a bit. But how are you feeling the aftershocks? I guess you can say the aftershocks of the trial, the remaining, the documentary that happened and where we are now today. Do you feel settled?

I think the documentary was pretty clearly heavily slanted towards the defense. I think the intent of the documentary was to confuse people and try to raise questions instead of answering them. So I didn't feel, frankly, to be blunt, that it was helpful or was a real contribution to the case. but in terms of the realities of what's going to happen next, you sat through that trial, I sat through that trial. Judge Goal for whatever her failings were on public access, I believe she really did succeed in protecting the rights of Richard Allen. And I don't expect the appeal to be successful.

Yeah. And so for all of the documentary saying he's innocent, for all of the people online, all the Richard Allen fanboys and fan girls, that's not going to change the fact that at the end of the day, this man is going to die in prison and he will be remembered as a child killer. And I will say this, you know, some of the, we talk about the fandom around Richard Allen and how disturbing it is that a convicted child murder has fans.

And I think we've seen kind of a fading away of some of those people. It just, I think they, I think there's going to be a nomadic contingent of true crime weirdos who are going to go from case to case and try to cause chaos. I think we're going to just have to all deal with that as a community. And some of them have probably moved on. Some of them may have moved on to Coburger or whatever when that happened, although obviously that's not going to trial now. I'm sure they'll resurface in the next big high profile controversial case. You still have the sort of ones who like don't think the war is over and are still like hunkered on an island. somewhere ready to fight and they'll be there until they're old and then they'll they'll die having wasted a lot of their time on something that they can't really affect any sort of outcome and just kind of spent a lot of anger and energy on something that needlessly i think uh i think i think that stuff is going to become less important in doubt five but it will be important in the next case and that's why i think we really part of the reason we wanted to write the book was just to be like how do we prevent this how do we discourage this as a community how can we

engage in true crime in a really pro-social way versus antisocial because I never want to discourage people from being interested in true crime because we're all interested in it. That's why we're doing what we're doing. It should be something where we can have interesting conversations, disagreements. Maybe you feel one way about a case. I feel a different way. That's okay. That's okay. Agreed to disagree. Beautiful. It's the behavior. It's the behavior. Stop the bad behavior. Like if someone has my opinion on Delphine is harassing people, I'm not happy about that. I don't want to be associated with that person. So we need to kind of alienate the people who are doing bad behavior,

kind of get rid of them, push them out of these communities, moderate things so that they're not, you know, the inmates aren't running the asylum, so to speak. And move on. I think that's kind of what has to happen. Well, your book is an incredible contribution. I sincerely mean that. Shadow of the Bridge, published by Pegasus Crime, by Anya,

Kane and Kevin Greenlee, the host of the Murder Sheet podcast. Tell us, what are you up to now? Are you still podcast? And where can people find you as you continue with other cases? Yes, we're still in the podcast minds. And you can find us wherever you listen to podcasts, Spotify, Apple, Amazon, wherever. Just look up Murder Sheet. And, you know, thank you for not asking what our next book is about. Because we don't know. Like, we would love to do another one because it was cool. And I think a book is an interesting way to kind of dive into a case laying it out chronologically versus like, hey, come jump into our hundreds of podcast episodes. Like, I'm not going to ask anyone to do that. But we kind of are, I think, an intransatory period and looking for what's next. We've been

reporting a lot on the yogurt shop murders recently, which has been interesting. So kind of a cold case becoming solved. But one thing I'm grateful for with this case is we got to meet amazing people like yourself because I think that was truly the only silver lining based on how upsetting and horrible this was and how much it revealed something very dark about certain people and human nature. But seeing people like you who came in and were professionals and were kind and were compassionate and were thoughtful and seeing that from the people who worked on the case and seeing that from the families of the girls, that's one of those things where I try to take that with me when we're walking away from Delphi.

I echo everything Anya just said. I'd also say one thing that may. this a lot easier for me personally was having a partner like ania she's wonderful to work with and she made this process so much easier and wonderful and i'm really lucky and i look forward to doing another book with her kevin is spreading some pro on your propaganda here because i feel like i was a nightmare to deal with no he was he was such he's a blessing to work with he is just such a patient and wonderful partner and i'm sure you guys have this two words like it can be hard to balance a marriage and then working together, but he makes it very easy. We made a truce before trial

where we're like, we're not going to fight. We're just going to let everything go. And we mostly held to that. There was one dispute in the Monticello McDonald's, but we quickly, a source called us, and then we forgot about what we were fighting about. We're like, I guess we'll just have our chicken nuggets now. Like, we don't even know what we're mad about. Well, I love it. A love forged over true crime. It's familiar to us, too, where John and I spoke about, honestly. crime on our first phone call. So I understand that. And yeah, so we still are going to have to do that double date when we're in the same city. I can't imagine what we'll talk about time we'll tell. Yeah. All right, you two. Have a wonderful, wonderful day. Thank you for stopping in. Buy their book.

It's incredible. Go listen to the Murder Sheep podcast. Thank you so much. So glad to have you guys with us today on Hidden True Crime. We'll see you.