Hidden True Crime - DELPHI TRIAL: After the Verdict with Dr. John Matthias

Episode Date: November 25, 2024

Lauren Matthias is inside the Courtroom in Delphi, Indiana for the trial of Richard Allen, and bringing us the very latest from Carroll County as the trial has no audio or video recording. Richard Allen is charged with murdering 13-year-old Abigail Williams and 14-year-old Liberty German in 2017. About Hidden True Crime: Lauren Matthias, a former television reporter, and her husband Dr. John Matthias, a criminal psychologist, started Hidden True Crime in 2020 with their Season, 'Beyond the Veil,' a psychological deep dive into the doomsday murders and prophet. What started as a simple conversation at their dinner table became a captivating podcast. Join the dynamic duo of Dr. John Matthias, a forensic psychologist, and Lauren Matthias, an investigative journalist, as they delve into the psychological facets of unthinkable crimes every week. Their unique perspectives and in-depth analysis offer a fresh take on true crime storytelling. Thank you for your support through sponsorships, subscribing, listening, and becoming a Patreon member at Patreon.com/HiddenTrueCrime Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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to bring you detailed reports from the Richard Allen trial. Allen is charged with murdering best friends, 13-year-old Abigail Williams, and 14-year-old Liberty German in February of 2017. And the judge has actually decided to not only not televise this trial, but to also not even share audio. Thus, I am here to be the eyes and ears of the courtroom. These episodes are nightly live streams that I record on YouTube

shortly after court ends each day. And if you notice these episodes are a bit more choppy than our other episodes, please understand why. And if you would like to catch the full unedited live stream, you can always head over to Hidden True Crime on YouTube. Hello, Hidden Jems. What a afternoon. Whoa. Most of you, many of you saw me earlier at the courthouse when we learned that there was a verdict in the Richard Allen trial. And many of you were with me after we learned the verdict, which is guilty on all counts. Richard Allen has been found guilty of murdering Abigail Williams and Liberty

German on February 13th, 2017. And John, thank you for being here. Why don't we, and look, the sun just went behind the sky. So I'll just turn up this so I can be a little bit brighter. But why don't we start with everything that happened today? I'll tell you, John. I'll tell everyone. And then we can talk.

And I'd like to hear your thoughts just so everybody knows. I was able to call John and tell you about the verdict. But we haven't talked beyond that. So we're here to have this conversation with all of you, our hidden gems. And I also can't wait to see you again. I'll after this live, I'll perhaps look at some plane tickets home. But let me share. So I want to say overall, the jury deliberated for 19 hours.

This was a jury outside from Allen County. So they brought in a jury from out of the county. They were sequestered the entire trial. And not only were they sequestered during the deliberation process after closing statements, they were to have no electronics and no family visits. or conversations with their family. So I knew that when they went into Sunday, which was a day off for the jurors,

meaning that they were gonna have to spend two more nights away from their family, I knew that something, it was, this was a heavy decision for them. I think that we can know that this jury, clearly for 19 hours, sat long and hard about this. We do know from a reliable source, that this, from multiple sources actually now that this jury requested two pieces of evidence on Saturday. And those two pieces of evidence were the interrogation. They wanted to watch

the interrogation of Richard Allen again, the day he was arrested and hear that. And then they also requested the bridge guy video. In other words, the last video, the victim, Libby German, ever got on her phone. They wanted to watch it, reminding us all of what they said in closing statements that Libby always desired to solve crimes when she grew up. And her own grandmother now has told me this as well. I've talked to Becky, and she told me the same thing. Libby wanted to solve crime. She wanted to help people.

She thought that she could help law enforcement. and to hear that the jury in deliberation was requesting her major piece of evidence that she got was sort of a moment that, you know, was profound to me. And so today, I just want to bring everyone there. We're outside of the courthouse. We have these seats and these reserve seats that we have had for since, gosh, it's been days now. Days and days, I have been. number nine in line to get into the verdict. And then I brought all of our hidden gems with me today as we finally learned that there was a verdict. I chose, by the way, this morning to sit in the car

this morning awaiting the verdict. Things got a little out of hand yesterday in line, or not yesterday. Yesterday was Sunday, but Saturday in line. If I'm going to be honest, and I just felt more comfortable, sort of sitting in my car across the street, but kind of there, going in and out. So the moment that there was a verdict, I jumped out of my car, ran over. We got in line. I had everyone there. There were people that did, but in line that said, we're not going to pay attention to these line numbers. And of course, the courthouse has nothing to do with these line numbers. This is all of us outside organizing ourselves. And so while I was number nine in line, I was number 12 going into the courthouse,

and there were only 14 people allowed into the courtroom. So I was number 12 of 14 people that were allowed in the courthouse and into the courtroom today. When we got in there, just to take all of you there, there were about 21 law enforcement in the back of, the courtroom. And also I want to explain the media had the front row and then every other row, except for the last row, was reserved for the Allen family on one side and Abby and Libby's family on the other. And then the entire back row was for anyone in the public, which is where I was.

And I was directly behind Kathy Allen. Kathy Allen was right in front of me. And to her right was Richard Allen's mother, Janice, and to Kathy Allen's left, was Richard Allen's sister Jamie. So that was who was right in front of me. On the other side were Abby and Libby's family. So 21 law enforcement in the back. And then as we all stood, oh, for a moment, actually, things didn't start. Richard Allen's family was not in the courtroom until the very end. At one point, Judge Gold came out, and she sort of reprimanded attorneys for saying, And I thought I told everyone to be only 10 minutes away where the defense attorneys, you know, where's the defendant's family.

But they did arrive within five more minutes. And then when Judge Gould came out, she had two more law enforcement with her. And then when the jury came out, overall, there were probably nearly 30 law enforcement with yet only 14 people in the public. The jury came out. They did not look. They were focused. I was looking for any sort of an expression.

They were stoic. They were poker-faced. They came out. They announced their four-person, not someone that I would have expected. It was a gentleman that I had a good view of the whole time, that most of the gallery had a good view of the whole time because he sat closer to the gallery.

They chose him. He said, we are ready to read our verdict. And at that moment, they simply stated guilty. We believe Richard Allen is guilty. And at that moment, right in front of me again is Kathy Allen. She just breaks down, starts crying hands in her head. And let me explain this too. Actually, Judge Gull made it very clear when she walked in and she said, whatever this verdict is, there's going to be one side that isn't happy. And I request all of you to take your unhappiness outside. I don't think she's referring to, of course, you know, Kathy Allen or whatever,

but she also, she was pretty much referring to, I think, all the public and all the media behave. And so that was also said she opened the envelope before she had the jury read it. So I don't think she knew until the jury was there. She opened it. They say guilty. And then the defense requested her to pull the jury. In other words, they requested that each juror state, is this my verdict and do I agree with this and for each individual juror to say yes yes yes and again while this is happening while this is happening um kathy allen is crying in front of me and richard allen's mother on one side again and richard allen's sister on the other are consoling her on the other side is abbey and liby's family again a huge

crowd more people that have been at the trial every day there are people that have on abbey and liby's families that have been at the trial every day but even more today extended family i didn't know everyone who everyone was and there were tears from these people and i saw liby's mother break down and start crying um just really emotional moment being in there and seeing everything happen the after the jury uh each shared yes this is our verdict they were were, we all stood for them. And as we stood for them, Kathy Allen seemed to not be able to. Her legs actually looked to actually be physically shaking.

And Janice and Jamie lifted her to her feet in order to stand. Richard Allen, during all of this, wasn't much reaction. Richard Allen, just from what I could see, and I've talked to others who even had a better view, there wasn't much of an emotional reaction from Richard Allen, as this verdict was read. The jury left, and at that moment, we had to wait a very long time because they wanted not only have the jurors leave, but to leave in the vehicle to be completely gone before anybody else walked out of that courtroom. So we had to wait quite a while in the courtroom and just silence while the jury left. Well, first off, actually, before the jury left, left, they left, but then we did go over sentencing. and then sentencing is going to be December 20th.

They waived, you know, the right to just having to sentence in 30 days is going to be December 20th. And then after the, we knew that all the jurors were gone out of, like, had left the building far, far away in their vehicle. They then said that the Richard Allen family could then leave because they wanted to get all of the families outside of the courthouse. before they let the media and the public out. And so then Richard Allen's family left. And then they stated anyone in Abby and Libby's family now that wants to go before anyone else leaves this courtroom, you can go too. And so they stood up. Not everyone did leave.

I saw Becky Patty and Anna Williams, that's Abby Williams' mother, embrace and just start crying really hard. And they didn't let go of each other. And it brought tears to my eyes as well. So again, after that, we all got up and we left and walked outside of the courthouse. We had to go single file. We had to go through security on the way out. I had to pick up my phone and my ear pods that I had to leave outside because nothing is allowed in, not even a smartwatch, not even ear pods.

So I had to wait in line to get those. Once I got those, then I went out and I went live. And it was a bit of it more chaotic on location live. So I wanted to break it down for all of you here and for Dr. John. But that is that is what happened just hours ago in Carroll County in front of the Carroll County Courthouse in Delphi, Indiana. I did see after, you know, I was sort of consumed with my live trying to focus, but I did notice that there were people that were upset by this verdict. but there were also many locals, John, that came up to me and shared how relieved they were and how grateful they were. I saw a friend of Libby's who felt relieved and was grateful for the verdict.

And Judge Gull also said that this gag order that has been on family and many surrounding this case is going to remain until the sentencing. So there you go. How are you feeling? Because John, you and I have been talking a lot about what we thought this verdict might be. I want you to know, admittedly, there were days outside of the courthouse. I gave a whole spill about how I thought it was going to be not guilty. You know, I was like, you know what? My God's telling me not guilty.

And I gave a whole idea of why. And then like three hours later, I was going live saying, you know what, now that I got that off my chest, no, I think it's going to be guilty. I think it'll be guilty. And this morning, I woke up to read an article where a man was just exonerated. after being charged the murder of a little girl. So my goodness, I don't, I just, my heart was pounding in there. I didn't know what it was going to be. Admittedly, it's not a happy day.

It's a, you know, to see Kathy Allen in there and Kath and Richard Allen's family. But I do have to admit, because I saw the evidence and I saw it every day in trial, I personally feel relieved by the guilty verdict because from the evidence I saw, I do believe that Richard Allen is bridge guy and is responsible for the murders of Libby and Abby. And that's from sitting in court every day and seeing the evidence. Yeah. To answer your question, I feel relieved too. Okay.

I can see how much this trial has been a strain on you and many people. And it's often reflected in your shows and in the chats. By the way, it's reflected in the chat now. as a matter of fact. You know, when we first, the first time I ever talked about this case a few months ago, I mentioned I talked about Sophocles, which I'm sure people are going to find to be an obscure reference here,

but I talked about Oedipus Rex and how in Sophocles in that particular drama that there was a plague on the city of thieves. and the plague would not be lifted until the murderer was found and the murderer was discovered. And I want to return, so I want to return to that quickly. I feel like we now have a convicted murderer. I feel like Delphi has been under tremendous strain for seven years.

100%. There's been a plague on this little town of Delphi, Indiana, and now I feel like that we know we have a conviction and we know who the murderer is, that the plague can be lifted, and maybe the town, the small town can start healing. And maybe, I mean, obviously, it extends beyond the small town. It extends to people across the United States and the world

that have been following this trial and that have been developing ideas and theories about who the murderer is for seven years, right? So I think the jury got it right. I think justice was served. I think justice was served these two little girls that deserve justice. I feel like we now have a murderer and hopefully the plague that's been following this trial like a cloud for seven years.

Hopefully this plague can be lifted and we can all start healing. This town desires to start healing. They need some healing that I learned being here for these three weeks. Yeah. more than three weeks. It's been it's like a time sewn in here. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah, I hope the healing can begin for everyone, including the Allen family. You know? Yeah, right, all of it. I mean, because there's been such strong emotions on both sides, guilt or not guilty, guilty or not guilty, I feel like it's created such turmoil for not only that community,

but for many people that have followed this case. So there's just, there's a lot of strong emotions around this case. There are. There are, you know, I think, yeah, 61 confessions. 61 confessions. The one time, the only time I saw Richard Allen sort of do anything is when they

were discussing his sentencing and the judge sort of looked at him and said something and he nodded. Like that was it. But, um, and by the way, let's, let me just talk about the lack of emotions is his unemotional reaction. I think that's interesting, right? Because, I mean, it doesn't necessarily say much, but it might suggest that he knows. He confessed 61 times. He didn't react emotionally because he knows he did it. He's, he's accepting maybe to some degree the verdict. It felt like an acceptance. And there could even be some relief

in the sense that he wanted to confess and people shut him down. His family shut him down. And now in a way, the jury is doing for him what his family didn't. They're allowing him a moment of truth, right?

They're allowing him, you know, they're allowing him to, the jury's expressing what he was trying to express to all of us, which is guilt. Yeah, the jury listened. The jury listened to Richard Allen and his confessions. And if you wanted to be heard, the jury heard him. Right, exactly.

So I, you know, I've talked, we talked, I've talked about this several times in our previous shows. But unlike Chris Watts, who confessed and his father listened and his father said, look, you need to take responsibility for this horrible act that you could, these murders that you committed. And you need to go, you know, it was, it was being video. taped, of course, but you need to give them a full confession and take a plea deal. And Chris Watts did. And I feel like Richard Allen tried to do that with a lot of people. And nobody wanted to listen to him. I think some of that has to do with, we've talked about his diagnosis of dependent personality disorder, which I'm not diagnosing that was given by two psychologists who testified on this case. And I think, you know, one of the things about

dependent personality disorder is that oftentimes there's a childlike quality to people with that. They come across as kind of needy. The way I would describe dependent personality disorder is someone who's desperately needy, childlike, right? They want to be taken care of oftentimes. And I think the reason I think people didn't take his confession seriously is because he comes across as a child. Yeah.

He comes across as desperately needy. And I think people, his defense attorneys, the public, his wife, his mother, I think there's this, he pulls for this neediness. He pulls for this quality where people aren't going to take him seriously because they don't see him as an adult. Never mind that people with dependent personality disorder, when they act out, they can get very violent. That does happen. There's plenty of murderers with this diagnosis or enough. but I think part of the issue here is that a lot of people wanted to coddle him and they didn't want to believe him and they pushed back when he was trying to tell the truth

and they just like his wife and mother they just don't they see him as a little kid who's not going to tell the truth or they need to coddle him and protect him and so I think when Chris Watts confesses his dad takes him seriously because he knows his son is is a independent person capable of making conscious choices, right? But when Richard Allen confesses, nobody takes him seriously because they see him as kind of this childlike, desperately needy guy that people have to take care of, right?

And so I think that's part of the issue. There's an emotional pull here away from trusting him and believing him and kind of coddling him and infantilizing him and treating him like a kid. and people don't see children committing these types of horrendous acts. Somebody mentioned, I saw, I'm hardly seeing any of these chats. Thank you to those that are helping us pin. But I saw something saying beyond the confessions, there wasn't a lot of evidence.

But I want to share that I saw a timeline that put him, put Richard Allen on the bridge, his bridge guy. I saw clothing that he was wearing that was similar to bridge guy. I saw a unspent cartridge that was matched to his gun. I saw a motive shared by Richard Allen,

a motive of why, of what happened. I saw the entire crime scene start to make sense to me and what this was. And I also saw and understood a lot more about who Richard Allen is. To me,

and the confessions, again, weren't just confessions, the confessions took you through the crime and what he did and when he did it and how it was done and the timeline. I saw a lot of evidence. I did. And if you tell this story from start to finish, if you put aside the confessions and just tell this story from start to finish, and just tell this story from start to finish based on the evidence we know, it does add up. You know, like I've talked about, the fact that he, even starting from his childhood with his own abuse as a child. And then his admission that he's a sex addict, like that that's starting, that that's already painting a picture of motive.

Correct. That's what I mean. And then you, he gets in his car. He drives to the old CPS building. He parks in a clandestine nature fashion so he can't be seen. he parks in such a way that his driver's license can't be detected. Right? He gets on a trail that nobody uses. So, I mean, right away, you're developing a narrative here that it's starting to point in that direction. Why doesn't he park in the normal Monon Highbridge parking lot? Why doesn't he take the standard traditional Monon Highbridge trail to the Monon High Bridge, right?

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this happened and this happened and I sort of read verbatim everything in the interrogation video. But when Richard Allen wouldn't answer straight where he parked, when they asked where he parked that day, he went on a tangent that was like 10 minutes long. Well, I could have parked there, but I usually parked there, but I parked over there, but I might have parked there. And when I did that, I had the car. It was so strange.

And he also did that with the cell phone. What cell phone did you? have that day, well, I have this provider and this provider is teeing and they're really great. You should get them. And by the way, that provider, that was strange. His long-winded answers were strange. I hope one day people can see this interrogation video. What's one financial lesson you learned the hard way? I'll go first. It's not too late to start saving. Today's episode is sponsored by Acorns. Acorns is a financial wellness app that makes it easy to start saving and investing for your future. You don't need to be an expert.

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Just use code hidden true crime to save 20% off. Plus, if you subscribe, you'll get an additional 20% off. Discover your true age today. And then the other thing that I noticed is in the interrogation video that was actually brought up by McLean in closing statements, in closing arguments, which I was so glad he brought it up because I noticed it and so did my neighbors was sort of these manipulation tactics used on his wife. When his wife was brought in, he looked at her and he said, you know that I didn't do this. You know that I'm like, you know that I didn't do this. Like, you know me. It reminded me of,

reminded me of Lori Valo actually. And I see that Colby Ryan is here right now, Lori Valo's son. But when he said to her, you know me. You know I would not do this. It was, I thought, gosh, she's very manipulative. And McLean said that in closing statements. He said, you saw him in that video, manipulate his wife. I thought, okay, I'm not seeing things. And I guess I'm sharing this too because there are things that come from that interrogation video beyond just his voice and beyond the screaming of, you know, Holman and, you know, the swearing and the language and the intensity of it all.

I saw things in Richard Allen that were interesting to me. And I wanted to know your thoughts, John, on what long-winded answers mean like that, sort of. Like, it was two things like, can we look at your, or what cell phone did you have, which they never found. That's also evidence that's compelling, I want to say. Evidence that was compelling was that they never did find that phone despite finding about 20 others. And then, or 15 others. And then where he parked and his answers were extraordinarily long. Any thoughts on that? I know you haven't seen it. So you're only hearing what I'm telling you.

I mean, I typically, so that might be a type of deception that he's trying to collect his thoughts on he knows what happened. And he's trying to collect his thoughts to give a coherent description or statement of events, but he's having trouble doing that. So he starts rambling and going up on tango because he can't get his story straight. He can't, right, he can't put a picture together that makes sense and that's coherent. And that's probably why he's rambling. It would indicate deception or deceptiveness that he can't, he knows what he did. He just can't, he's trying to find a way out of that. He's trying to create an alternative narrative and he's struggling.

So he's reaching for different answers and different interpretations. so that's typically why someone in that particular scenario would ramble because he knows. He knows. He knows, but he can't tell you the truth because then he would be, obviously he'd be, you know,

this would have been over a long time ago if he'd told the truth. So he doesn't. Right. And I just saw somebody else say he offered too many details, exactly, just too much to me. Well, he's having, he's having trouble figuring an alternative story

that doesn't incorporate incriminating facts or evidence, right? That's one of the difficulties when people lie is a lot of times they can't keep their story straight. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just a quick shout out to Colby Ryan, who is here in chat.

Colby just recently had a baby boy. Colby also lost his two siblings and his dad to a terrible crime. And it's good to see you, Colby. I was proud to be there. I was proud to be there when your two siblings got justice. And I'm grateful to be here today to see Abby and let me get justice. So it continues on. We continue on.

Yeah. Did you know it was going to be a guilty verdict? Or what were you feeling, John? You weren't here, I know. I know. I, no. I wasn't certain of that. I feel like there's been a lot.

of misinformation swirling around this case. Yes. And a lot of that misinformation has been pushed out to the public. And a lot of people have glommed on to it. And who know? You know, it's hard. So the fact that the jury was sequestered gave me more hope. If the jury wasn't sequestered and they were consuming all the misinformation,

I would have had more concerns. But I don't know. I feel like I feel like I was. kind of 50-50 on whether they would convict. So normally I'd say that if there was less misinformation, that it would probably be like 8515 or something. But who knows? These days, I don't know.

Yeah, I know. It's hard to know. It was all to wake up this morning. Like think of my, so I'm in bed waking up in Delphi. I reach over for my phone before getting out of bed. And there's a People magazine article posted today about a man who was exonerated in the murder of an 11-year-old girl because the jury couldn't decide if the DNA under her fingernails was really his, although it was very confusing. And I just felt a pit in my stomach.

But this jury, we have to, you know, this jury thought long and hard, they deliberated long and hard. This is, they were stoic and poker face, though, too. They just delivered it and that is that. We'll never know what happened those 19 hours really unless they choose to tell us one day. Yeah, maybe you can someday, maybe you can get an interview with a juror too and we can get inside the jurors' minds and see what they were thinking. And that would be fascinating. So we'll try to do that if we can. Yes.

Yes. I want to thank you for supporting me. you know, where you've been and for holding down the fort like you have. Thank you. I've shared this and I'll share it with you here now too is John and I didn't know if I would stay the whole trial. And I came back during Halloween and I just said to him, I just said to you, you know, I have to go back.

Like, and we both agreed. He agreed. He's like, yeah, you do. Like I was like, this is, I've never seen anything like this. And the word you kept using was heavy. so just to to give some of our viewers

feel for what you were going through every Lauren and I she was so busy I was lucky if I would catch up with her for like five minutes every night

and in those five minutes one of the things you kept saying was this is so heavy this is so heavy and you know I really felt for you and you know but I took that to mean a couple of things number one emotionally it was hard

it was probably hard emotionally and heavy in the sense that you felt like you were carrying the burden of doing some factual reporting when other people necessarily were not doing that yeah well just when there was a lot of information swirling online it's the internet you know it always happens but yeah right yeah right right I'm excited to see you and to come home now. I'm relieved that I get to come home, knowing that there is justice for Abby and Libby and for their families. And again, I just, I am so proud of Libby to know. Her last video ever recorded helped to solve this case. she solved a crime.

And it's heartbreaking that it was her own, where she was a victim, her own murder. But that video she took was so important, so important. And yet, let's talk about the video. I mean, it was super important. But, and yet, in spite of the video, people still didn't believe it. I mean, it wasn't, it wasn't, the video wasn't a slam-d-on. in the sense that it didn't reveal necessarily who it was, right?

But there's for people that watch sports, you know, there's a term that sportscasters and analysts used and it is what they call the eyeball test, meaning essentially does what you see in a team reflect the reality? So if a team is considered to be a great team and you watch that team play, Do they look like a great team? Right? In other words, like, you trust what you see and you at, without looking at analytics,

without looking at records, right? You trust what's in front of you to be accurate, right? I think there's a, for me, bridge guy looks like Richard Allen. Right? And I mean, that doesn't necessarily mean it's him. People are going to disagree with that. But if you look at the eyeball test, like this looks like a middle-aged guy with the goatee that looks a lot like Richardette.

Like, I mean, it's just, it's not definitive evidence, but it's certainly a part of it. Yes. Right. Right. Does it all make sense? Do all the puzzle pieces fit together? Right. Exactly.

It's not, you can, the problem, like, you can take one piece of evidence out of context and, right, and play it up and amplify it and say, this proves something. But you have to look at the whole totality. of the narrative and how do all the pieces fit together. And here they do. And you have to start, like starting with the fact that Richard Allen places himself at the crime scene during the time of the time. Yes. Someone actually just stated, I still wish we knew exactly what happened. I actually think after this try on a guilty verdict we do.

Richard Allen told Dr. Walla and others what he said was that he was that he, was this was a sexually motivated crime. This is what Richard Allen said, and this is what they stated in closing arguments too. In fact, I recently shared this and someone said, well, that sounds like you're inferring. I'm like, no, this was said in court through Richard Allen's confessions and closing statements and the health app on Libby's phone,

that this was a sexually motivated crime. He saw them. He thought they were older. His plan was to R them. He asked, he with a gun, said, go down the hill. They went down the hill. The health app stopped for a time.

That is where McLean suggested during closing arguments where he had his way with them. He made them undress. And there was a length of time there before the health app started moving again. Richard Allen then, after that moment, according to his confession,

saw a white van. Put a pin in that white van because I have something to tell you guys. He saw a white van. And that scared him. And so he gathered the girl, he told him to hurry. And there's more movement on the health app. And they go across the creek into a wooded area where it's more hidden.

And then he says he has been selfish his whole life. And he took their lives to save his own. And by that it means he slit their throats. And he left them there. And he said he wanted to make sure they didn't. suffer so he made sure that the job was done. He put branches on them to hide them. And then he walked out another way off of the trail and he left. So that is what Richard Allen has told us has happened. That is what the health app on Libby's phone and Libby's phone then never moves

again after that. So with a guilty verdict, we can know that that that is a what happened in this crime. Right. If you believe the confessions. If you believe the confessions, which is the reason. Yeah. Go ahead. Right.

And obviously, I'll say this. Obviously, it doesn't matter what you and I think. The jury believe them. So that's sufficient. The jury believe the confessions. You know, the people that don't believe the confessions, because they argue that he was tortured or psychotic or whatever. Like, I can refute that.

but I've already gotten into that a little bit. I guess my question is, so a big question I've asked, and I'm going to answer this later on Patreon, but a big question, because it's kind of a detailed answer that I don't want to get into here, but a big question I always ask is,

why don't people believe him? Right? Like, that's, to me, in some ways, that's the key to this entire case. I mean, how many, 61 confessions is highly unusual. How many do you need? What's the tipping point? 100?

Do you need 1,000 confessions before you believe? Like, my sense is the people who don't believe is confessions, you can give 5,000 confessions. He can confess every day to anyone on the record, to wardens, to inmates, to anyone, family, and they won't believe him. And some of that, I think, has to do with dependent personality disorder because dependent personality disorder people tend to, as I explained earlier, they tend to pull for this victim stance, this victimization type stance, right?

That they're these needy, desperately needy, kind of dependent people that need other people for validation, that need other people to feel love, they feel inadequate, you know, that sometimes I think it's harder to believe someone who presents themselves as a victim, who presents themselves, himself in that capacity. And so I don't know. Like it's, is there a tipping point? Is it 10,000 confessions before we believe this guy? Like, why don't people, the key to, why don't they believe him, right? He's telling us he did it. So I think that's a fascinating question. And I mean, just a glimpse into the discussion we're going to be having later. But I think some of it has to do with looking at, and I'll get into this more, some of it has to looking to really looking at the whole.

horror of the human condition. Looking at the heinous things that human beings can do and not wanting to believe that. I mean, that's my job, right, is to look at the horror of the human condition. But a lot of people don't want to look at it. Yeah. There's shame. He didn't confess during an interrogation. There was no confession of, if you do this, you'll get out.

There was no incentive. When people bring up the torture, that confuses me too. There was no incentive. if he felt tortured, this wasn't going to, this was only going to put him there for good if he confesses. It doesn't make sense. People say, well, he confessed because he was forced it out of him. Actually, no one asked him to do it.

And the confession would mean he'd have to be there longer. I just, I just want to point that out too. There's, yeah, I could run through all the reasons why I think the confessions are valid, but I mean, I think that's less important now because the jury believed him. The jury took him at face value. They believed that 61 confessions were sufficient to convict. He told the jury. He told us.

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at the same price competitors charge for just one service. Start your free trial today atora.com slash remove. Protect yourself now atora.com slash remove. That he committed these murders, and they convicted him. It's that simple. I mean... Right. Someone asked how I know that no one told Richard Allen to confess because we have testimony on the stand of multiple people saying, please don't stop, don't do it.

We heard audio of his own mother and wife saying, stop it. You didn't do this. Stop it. And him saying, no, I want to tell you. That's why. So I see in the chat that people were still saying, by the way, like it doesn't, this is a great example of this question of why don't people believe him, right? Like people are in the chat right now are saying the confessions aren't valid and they're not believing him. So it doesn't really matter what you and I say or what evidence we present.

People are not going to, people do not want to believe him. And one of the reasons they don't want to believe him is because they don't want to look at this torrible heinous act for what it is because it threatens their sense of security. It threatens their sense of the world being a safe. place where we don't you went out on that trail you went for a walk on that trail you don't when you let's say that you went out without people with you what you don't want to feel like you can go out on this beautiful trail on a beautiful fall day and believe that some guy is lying in wait in the woods that's going to murder you i know some people that went out on the trail this week and they actually the bridge now is half of the bridge now is new the other out for the bridge you know is still

the old original where the abduction happened but there are some people that went to that part of the bridge where abbey and liby were during the abduction the old part they went down the hill and they looked up and they saw weber's white van and i i actually have video of it and I'll be sharing it later today, but it was very chilling to see. But yes, I have been there and the parts I haven't been I have seen from other people. And it all correlates with the confessions I've seen in court. It's just kind of interesting. So you actually can see Brad Weber's van from down the hill.

It was there. But I'll send you the video later too. It was wild. Okay. I mean, Kelly, Kelly, yeah, but it was a horrible investigation. That's what's so funny. Like, people are like, oh, they coerced it into confessing. I'm like, no, actually the police didn't.

They tried and they failed. They didn't, you know, yeah. So. Right. It doesn't, it doesn't, like at some point, it doesn't matter how much what the evidence says or how much evidence you have. People are going to believe what they want to believe. That's called confirmation bias. They have a narrative about this case and they're going to stick to it and no matter what the evidence says.

So I noticed one of the comments was earlier was that how biased I am. And, you know, I guess I'm as biased as the jury. So I guess I'm as biased as the evidence, right? like I guess, you know, yeah, we're all biased, but the jury followed the evidence and that's what I did. So if you give me some compelling evidence to show me he's not guilty, I'd be happy to look at it. I'll reevaluate my opinion in a heartbeat if you show me some evidence that exonerates him. Yeah. why don't we take

a few questions and it's been I'm scanning thank you to those helping to pin or star some questions yeah sure thing hey you sold that car yet

yeah sold it to Carvana oh I thought you were selling to that guy the guy who wanted to pay me in foreign currency no interest over 36 months yeah no Carvana game give me an offer in minutes, picked it up and paid me on the spot. It was so convenient.

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Someone says, Lauren, what about the white man? Well, what I'm just saying is the white ban was a big part of testimony that Richard Allen stated in one of his confessions. He saw a white van which scared him. And like literally on the trail down to the area, you see. And a lot of the leaves have fallen. You see a white van sitting there and you're like, it just makes sense. And so they had Brad Weber testify on the stand that it was his van and that he drove home at that time on February 14th or February 13th. So that it would make sense that that would be the white van he saw.

And you can see Brad Weber's band parked there from down the hill. Let's see. Thank you, Dippity-Doo. I appreciate this. I strongly disagree with you guys on this one. Nonetheless, I think it's important to listen to those we disagree with. So here I am listening. Too much reasonable doubt.

Thank you for covering this. I respect that. Thank you, Amber. And that's that's always been my, that's always been my contention is if you disagree, let's let's have a, let's have a, you know, a discussion. about it. Give me your argument.

Like, give me the evidence that put it, make sense of the evidence that you have. Don't just, right? Don't just, don't just, you know, get angry and dismiss everyone because you don't like what other people are saying or, right? I think, I don't know.

Yeah. We've lost some of that capacity in this country, just to have civil disagreements and arguments and to say this is the evidence. This is what I think. This is why I have this perspective. This is why I believe this. I will, Nikki.

I will. Yes, I was concerned about a hung jury. I think the county was too, because I don't think they could afford another trial. John, Mia wants to know, why do you think he self-reported himself in the first place? I have my ideas, by the way, I think he had released.

Just so you know, I think when he self-reported, They had also released, I think, the photograph or the still shot of the bridge guy. But why do you think he self-reported in the first place? From a psychological standpoint, it might be something like guilt, but I think he knows that there were witnesses on the bridge. He knows he was IDed on the bridge. He probably believed that some of those witnesses on the bridge would identify him as bridge guy, right? he's trying to get out in front of the evidence.

I agree because according to Rayleigh and Bree's testimony, Rayleigh said hi to him and he didn't respond. So he reported that he saw the girls. So I think you're right as far as getting ahead of evidence. He knew that there were people that saw him because of that high. And yeah, interesting, getting ahead of the evidence. By the way, another interesting part of this story, that gets to, I haven't heard anyone talk about it, but is in the, if you go back to the

probable cause statement, the witnesses say something interesting. The witness, the eyewitnesses all say the same, they say a version of the same thing, which is that he was, he was rude, he was dismissive, like they would say hi to him and he would just growl at them, right? He would scowl at them. And that's interesting to me, right? It could because if you're, if you're, if you're, it suggests a couple things. If you're out for just a leisurely hike and somebody says hi to you, typically you're going to acknowledge him or say hi back, right? So he's not out there for a leisurely hike. This is a guy that's focused. This is a guy that, you know, has particular aggressive intentions and he, he's on a mission. He's going to get where he needs to go. And these eyewitnesses are essentially

agreeing with that. They're saying he wasn't kind. He didn't make eye kind. He didn't make eye kind. intact, right? Like, it's interesting. Just little pieces of the puzzle like that. That are in the probable cause. Like, you know, again, going back to this idea of putting together all the pieces and completing a coherent

narrative of what happened, even little pieces like that add up. Bridge Guy was focused on getting to the victims. He wasn't acknowledging other eyewitnesses that would say, hi, how are you doing? Great day. Nope. He would like, he would look in their

direction and give the eyewitnesses an angry glance, right? And that's consistent with all of this. I mean, you know, the reason the prosecution wouldn't bring that in is because it's too interpretive. It goes beyond the evidence. But I think it's still part of the story. Like, every piece of the story fits. Bridge Guy was not a happy guy. He was focused on committing a violent crime. And the eyewitnesses noticed that. A question. Dr. John, is it possible that he had taken weapons to the bridge on other occasions?

And this time with some liquid courage, he acted out of fantasy. I think this crime was driven by fantasies for sure, by sexual fantasies that involved the R word that he probably had been having for some time. we know from some of the testimony that he had some qualities of OCD, obsessive-compulsive disorder. He wasn't diagnosed with that, by the way, but one of the psychologists said that he couldn't let things go. He couldn't let when he was stuck on something, he couldn't let it go. So it's easy to imagine that he was stuck on these fantasies that he couldn't let go. And yes, I think he may have gone out to rehearse or to, you know, to, to, to, to,

examine an area where he might be able to commit this type of crime without being caught. So I think there was probably some reconnaissance. I think, yeah, I think it's highly possible that he was out there before trying to see if this is something he could pull off. I do believe that when he took that side trail, the kind of hidden side trail that you were on that you pointed out to us, I believe he had a great vantage point. He could see the bridge.

He could see like he was able to see from that hidden trail where the victims or, you know, where any victims that he might have been praying on or, you know, looking for. He could see where they were. And then he could, you know, so my guess is, yeah, he's probably, he probably was out there, you know, before a few times. Yes. You know, thinking, thinking through the crime. So in that sense, I think it's very premeditated.

I don't think it obviously didn't go according to plan. This is not what he anticipated. Someone says, can you imagine the psychological stress on your souls if you did this to two children? If you aren't a psychopath, it would be unbearable. Any thoughts on that? That's one of my arguments for why his confessions are so valid. It's precisely that. There's no sense here, I get, that Richard Allen is a psychopath.

So I think his confessions were to him. They were very cathartic. I think he was feeling a tremendous amount of guilt and maybe some remorse. And he wanted to come clean because he wanted peace of mind. So if you look at the motives, if you look at the motives for his confessions, I think the motives are indicative of very honest, you know, confessions, very honest responses. Okay. Let's see.

there's another one. Let's see. Um, what? Let's see. You know, any other questions I'm looking. Anything else you want to say, John, while I scan, we have 10,000 people watching and I want to thank everyone for watching us. And I just want to say, like, if you valued our reporting, if this has meant a lot to you, the greatest thing you can do, by the way, is to subscribe and to like, this video like just that alone is a huge thing to us so thank you um some people are asking if we're going to be doing a patreon later here we go are you going to discuss more in depth on patreon we keep saying yes and we do have some patreon episodes plan it's been hard as you've shared i have been busy you have been busy we have been on different time zones uh both holding down

the four and separate uh sides of the country but we we do have planned Yeah, we've been trying to jump on a Patreon the last three nights, but Lauren has just been inundated with stuff, with work. And I've been, we just haven't been able to coordinate our schedules. So now that we have a verdict, we're going to, we're going to talk more about. So I hinted at it. But I want to give my thoughts on what I feel like the real underlying reasons to, you know, this question of why don't people believe them. I think it's an important question. And I want to give more unfiltered thoughts about that a little later.

Yeah, there have also been some interesting questions here that I'm posting, but I'm like, oh, maybe they're better for Patreon, you know. But this is one, you know, where the girl's just randomly there. What would not make a person recognize her own spouse's voice or body or hair? I mean, I don't know if she's, yeah. I think the question is, why doesn't Kathy apparently think that it's him? I think she does think it's him. Yeah, I think she's just not, she's not telling us that she thinks it's him because she wants him to get acquitted.

Right. According to his confessions, do you specifically targeted it was just random? I think it was whoever showed up. He actually said in one of his confessions, he thought the girls were older. And then when he realized as they were undressed that they were younger than he thought they were, that their biological eggs were younger than he had no. He thought they were maybe 18 or 19 and didn't realize they were younger. Thank you.

Anything else you want to say, John? So we will do something for, thank you, Colby. And again, Colby is here with us, Lori Vallow's only surviving son. after a crime shook his entire world. And Colby, congratulations on the new beginning. This week you had a baby boy. So a huge congrats. You can go check out Colby's channel on YouTube as well

and give him support as a survivor of a horrific crime that shook his family. As Kim says, is it possible the mental breakdown got worse because his family wouldn't tell him his full confession. Yep, absolutely. Great insight. I think one of the explanations for a lot of his really strange behaviors had to do with this masochistic guilt that he was experiencing because he had, he wanted to confess.

He wanted to tell the truth, but his family and his lawyers were telling him, no, you can't do it. We'll protect you. We'll take care of you. And so he had this huge conflict between wanting to tell the truth and people preventing him from, telling the truth. And again, going back to this idea of dependent personality disorder, if somebody tells him not to do something, that's going to be very compelling to someone with dependent personality disorder because they're going to want to go along with the program. They're going to go along to get along in dependent personality disorder. And rarely are they going to

rock the boat. So that created a lot of turmoil, I think, in Richard Allen because he really wanted to tell the truth. That's obvious. The fact that he was willing to his wife kept telling him, no, you didn't do this, you didn't do this, don't say it. And he kept saying, no, I did it. The fact that he was willing to push back against his wife with dependent personality disorder, it shows a lot of courage,

and it shows how much he wanted to tell the truth. But nobody wants to hear it. Nobody wants to believe him. Nobody wants to listen to him more than anything else. He wanted to tell the truth. I think it's highly probable in the coming, assuming, you know, I don't know, I presume there's going to be appeals, but let's say that there weren't appeals. My guess is if Richard Allen believed that appeals would fail in his case that he would probably tell us the truth. I mean, he already, in his confessions he told us the truth, but I think that it's probable that he might be more forthcoming now that he's convicted. I mean, his, his family and his attorneys would have to give him the green light, which is highly dubious.

But this is a guy, I think, who wants to come clean. And he may, at this point, now that he's convicted, I think it's more likely you may get the truth from, or, you know, he told us the truth, but you may get it now again where he sits down with, I don't know who, but he'll, where he provides a complete narrative of what happened, maybe. Yes. Jane, as well as Father's alibi, thank you for your generosity tonight as well as so many others. Tom Webster, someone that was in the courtroom often, is asking to Kathy really say this isn't over at all, according to WHTR.

I don't know. I was sitting behind her in the courtroom. I did not hear that. So if she did say it, it was not something I heard or others heard in the courtroom. room with me, but that doesn't mean she didn't say it somewhere else. But I did not hear that. Yeah, do you think you'll admit it now? Or will you fight for appeal and maintain his innocence? Or will you ever know? That's what I just said. I feel like he's more, I think he's more likely to admit it now than ever

before. Yeah. But again, it's going to be the same dynamic. He's going to get pressure from his attorneys and his family. If that's accurate, what was just said about Kathy making that statement, then no, he won't come forward. But if left to his own devices without pressure or people telling him not to because he's dependent personality disorder, he probably won't. But if left to his own decision making, my guess is he would come forward and acknowledge it. Thank you, everyone.

Is there anything else you want to share? You know, our first show on this case, I talked also about the irony of this occurring in a town called Delphi. Delphi, as I talked about Oedipus and Greek tragedy, Delphi is the place where the oracles would congregate, and they were considered, oftentimes they were considered prophets who knew the future, who knew the past, and they were truth-towers. The oracles were truth-tellers and truth-seekers, and their job was to tell the truth, to civil society, to Thebes, to the Greek cities where they were consulted.

And I feel like, so think about the irony of that. Delphi is the place of truth-seeking in ancient Greek culture. Delphi is the place of truth-seeking and truth-telling. And here you have all this, I don't know, all this craziness going on in this little town of Delphi around the truth. And at the end of the day, you get 12 jurors who convict and are truth seekers and truth tellers. And so I just want to thank the jurors. The jurors to me are the oracles of Delphi who went into the jury room.

They looked at the evidence and they found the truth and they found justice. And I hope this town can start healing. I hope the families can start healing. You know, nobody wins here, obviously, because it's a horrible crime and two beautiful young girls were lost. But in the end, in this little town of Delphi, which is where all the truth-childtellers

would congregate in ancient Greece, I think we finally discovered the truth. And for that, I'm grateful. Thank you, babe. I will be seeing you soon, and yes, we will be doing some episodes very shortly on Patreon. We'll see you guys. All right. Bye.

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