Hidden True Crime - DELPHI TRIAL DAY 17: Defense Rests & Prosecution's Rebuttal

Episode Date: November 20, 2024

Lauren Matthias is inside the Courtroom in Delphi, Indiana for the trial of Richard Allen, and bringing us the very latest from Carroll County as the trial has no audio or video recording. Richard Allen is charged with murdering 13-year-old Abigail Williams and 14-year-old Liberty German in 2017. About Hidden True Crime: Lauren Matthias, a former television reporter, and her husband Dr. John Matthias, a criminal psychologist, started Hidden True Crime in 2020 with their Season, 'Beyond the Veil,' a psychological deep dive into the doomsday murders and prophet. What started as a simple conversation at their dinner table became a captivating podcast. Join the dynamic duo of Dr. John Matthias, a forensic psychologist, and Lauren Matthias, an investigative journalist, as they delve into the psychological facets of unthinkable crimes every week. Their unique perspectives and in-depth analysis offer a fresh take on true crime storytelling. Thank you for your support through sponsorships, subscribing, listening, and becoming a Patreon member at Patreon.com/HiddenTrueCrime Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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today. Additional terms apply. Service plan required for Apple Watch and iPad. I'm continuing to report from Delphi, Indiana, spending long nights in line and sitting in court each day to bring you detailed reports from the Richard Allen trial. Allen is charged with murdering best friends, 13-year-old Abigail Williams, and 14-year-old Liberty German in February of 2017. And the judge has actually decided to not only not televise this trial, but to also not even share audio.

Thus, I am here to be the eyes and ears of the courtroom. These episodes are nightly live streams that I record on YouTube shortly after court ends each day. And if you notice these episodes are a bit more choppy than our other episodes, please understand why. We are working around the clock to bring you the very latest on the trial with a quick turnaround. And if you would like to catch the full unedited live stream, you can always head over to Hidden True Crime on YouTube. Hey, everyone. It was a huge day today.

Really, really big day. A lot of heavy feelings inside that courtroom. We're going to talk about it all. got in right away we realized it was a pretty heavy day because they only let 17 of us in and I was number 17 that was the first thing that was pretty surprising for today and so we get in they only allow us in I'm feeling grateful because they didn't even let me in right away it was wait no and then they're like okay there's one more chair go ahead and uh you know they explained once we were all in there, that only, and this is where I read my note, so I have to look down,

but only 17 people will be allowed in the courtroom. And if we talk, people will not be allowed back in. In other words, they also explained that they had two extra bailiffs in the courtroom, and a line immediately started forming outside for lunch. Cher Bear, thank you. We will. Thank you so much. So we're waiting and the first words right at 9 a.m. It was 9 a.m. sharp. That's when court is supposed to start but oftentimes you know it's five after whatever. 9 a.m. sharp. The first words your honor defense rests and right when that happened everyone was like whoa. Like I thought did they plan this? I've never seen that before like the first words defense rest. And honestly, everybody was thinking that Kathy Allen was going to testify. That was sort of what

everyone was saying that Kathy Allen was going to be the last witness for the defense on the stand before they rest. And so Kathy Allen was in the courtroom as well as, as well as Richard Allen's mother and father and his sister. And there, Kathy Allen never testified. So people were fairly surprised right after that happened. A brief sidebar was requested. And I put brief in quotes because that's exactly what we said. Brief sidebar. Well, it was not brief. The jurors are talking and nodding during the brief sidebar.

And it was interesting to not be able to not. I wasn't able to say anything, not even whisper to my neighbor. Because again, they said if you even as much as whisper, you're out of here. So it was just kind of eerily quiet, which I think sort of lent to like this heaviness in the room. So at this moment, the defense actually steps outside. And Baldwin walks out, and then after the brief sidebar, the jury is dismissed. And I was like, oh. So I was like, wait, is the day over?

What's happening? Nobody really knew, but no one could really ask each other again, because, again, we, no talking. So they explained that the defendant was not going to testify, meaning Richard Allen. And the judge admitted that she wasn't expecting this just yet, which made me feel better. I was like, wow, did they all know this was going to happen? And we didn't, but it seems like they didn't. The judge said, I wasn't expecting this just yet, but let's go over instructions.

And then Rosie and OJ, like, leave the courtroom at that moment. And there's just silence while everyone is looking over the, silence while everyone is looking over instructions. And I wrote some time notes here, 9.20 a.m. silence continues. And when I say silence, I really mean silence because if one person talks, even whispers, they're going to tap us on their shoulder and will never be able to come back into the courtroom again. So just quiet. At 925, Baldwin enters back in and he grabs some legal pads, paper, and then he walks back out. At 935, there is just complete silence in the courtroom. But I can see Luttrell and McLeeland, the prosecution, talking. Agerie comes back in. She's

the defense and she grabs her laptop and she leaves at 940. Diener McLean and Luttrell, who looks really animated at this point, continue talking and discussing. I'm looking over and I see Abby's mom, Libby's sisters, Libby's aunt, her mother Carrie. Yeah, I said Abby's mother, Abby's grandparents, Kelsey, the Paddies. And then, of course, on the defense, I already mentioned the front row was Kathy Richard's mom and dad and his sister, Jamie, and their friend, Christy. So a 950, finally, something happens. And Rosie requests until this afternoon to pause really quickly. Yeah, something happens.

So 950 something happens. Rosie pretty much asks if he can email the court something. Judge Gull says that's fine. There was an argument before, an argument before we recess. They said, here's her order of how she wants. things done. So here's here is the order of how she wants things done. First, she wants to instruct the jurors about the law and everything that is they need to know. And then she after she wants the state's rebuttal. Okay, so the state's rebuttal, she's explained to us,

and then the state's closing. And in her 15 years, she believes this is the best order that the jury has the law before the closing arguments. And then Judge Gull explains that she expects two to two and a half hours for closing arguments for both sides. And if it goes past that, she understands that a lot of evidence has been presented. But if it goes past that, she's going to push to sort of tell people it's time to conclude. They've provided a lot of evidence. She wants them to have sufficient time, but 2.5 hours should suffice in both the prosecution

and the defense agree. So again, she gives a schedule of what she expects, things are going to look like. And of course, we're all wondering in the gallery, too, like, what are things going to look like? So here's a schedule that she says, when the state finishes preliminary arguments, there will be a break. Then she says, when the defense finishes preliminary arguments, there will be a break. And then the prosecution will be final. then she will give the jury plenty of personal space and it'll recess until the state lets us know. So at 10.30 a.m., there's kind of after hearing that, and again, remember, everything's really quiet.

Before lunch, I was on the last row. I was the last one in. Every row makes it a little bit more difficult to hear. But there essentially, I wrote, there's like a panic in the courthouse at this moment. I'm writing this. and outside of the courthouse. And that's when I explained. Outside, a line is already forming for tomorrow. And inside, there is a line formed for lunch. And then at one point, there was a producer. Like, everyone's sort of panicking.

At this moment, we kind of can talk because we're in recess and we're hearing all of this, but we're the people that are in the courtroom are allowed to stay. And we're all talking. We're all panicking. Some people are running downstairs. We're not allowed to go out hoping that, like, someone can save a line for them. Like it's taking two people at the very least to help one person get in because you have to save a line. And so at one point, one producer leaves this morning.

Like someone comes up and says, dude, there's a line forming outside and you've got people inside for lunch. If you even want to get in tomorrow, you have to leave. And so there's a producer from a big network, I'll just say, who decides to actually leave this morning just so she can get in line here because she didn't have a line sitter. I mean, it's wild. And again, if we didn't have line sitters, this is impossible to do a loan. It is now 100% impossible to get into the courtroom for everything unless you have multiple people helping you and line sitters officially. And so just, again, thank you to the people that are helping hidden true crime. And let's hope we can get in after lunch too.

So I think we're good. If we stay here all night and keep our spot, we're good. but, you know, after lunch, you know, just send your good vibes our way. Then at this moment, people are kind of still whispering and talking because we're at recess and we're on break and there's a rumor. Someone comes up to me. We've made a lot of friends here, a lot of people. Like, there is a lot of camaraderie here. I value that so much. It's like, we're all watching out for each other. And so one of my friends comes up that I've met here over the last couple weeks and he's like, look, did you hear who the three rebuttal witnesses

are? I'm like, no, tell me. And he's like, all right. It's going to be Brie Wilbur, Harshman, and Dr. Martin, the psychiatrist. And I'm like, wow, thank you. So right at that moment, he tells me that. And then right at that moment, Judge Gull walks in. And we, of course, stand up thinking, okay, 1030s. The court's back in session, even though, you know, and then she walks in. And we think we're about to start with the state's rebuttal, because that's what's next, right?

like the defense is rested next step states rebuttal and we're all ready and then she kind of looks around she talks to someone and then she says I have to apologize there is no attorney here for cross and then she gets up and she leaves again and um I was like what is going on but I see Ogey she's the female attorney for the defense she walks over to the Allen family she apologizes and she whispers to them and I can hear it. She says, I'm so sorry. It is now going to be like another 30 minutes. And then when I asked other people, I'm like, what is going on? They're like, Baldwin's missing. So, so Rosie was there, Oje was there, but like Baldwin was missing in action. Don't know where he was. So, uh, judge disappears again. I'm able to chat with my

neighbors for a time, a little bit longer, use the restroom, grab a drink of water. Like, whenever there's a chance to try to take care of things. And 11 a.m. court is back in session. So it was like exactly a half hour. So at this point, not much has happened. 11 a.m. We have our first rebuttal witness and it is Breanne Wilbur. And for those of you that do not remember, Breanne Wilbert also testified for the prosecution earlier. She was one of the witnesses that she was with Rayleigh and Rayleigh's two younger sisters

there were four of them and they both saw and they were around this time about 2, 15, 3 and they both saw allegedly a man who Rayleigh waved to and said hi, who didn't say hi back, who they both sort of gave

different descriptions of this man but both allegedly said that when they you know that when they saw the photo of bridge guide that's who they saw their timeline works out and they are both mentioned actually in the probable cause of Richard Allen's arrest. So on rebuttal, Brianne Wilbur is up first. And so in other words, I got the right info on the three rebuttal witnesses. The first question is on 213, 2017, you took a Snapchat photo leaving Highbridge. And she says yes. And then they said, and then they said,

you took also a Snapchat photo leaving the Freedom Bridge. And she said, yes. She goes, although the Freedom Bridge was first, and then we went to the High Bridge. And so they enter Exhibit 318. They passed the photos that Brianne took on Snapchat. Of course, they're very time stamped to the jury. She passed it to the jury and distributed it, Exhibit 13. and then she explains that she arrived at 2.25 p.m. She went from the Freedom Bridge towards the

high bridge. She saw no other girls her age there and no other person that looked like bridge guy. So then there was cross exam. That was it. That was all they asked her. And then there was a cross exam. And Rosie asked, is it normal for you to walk around there? And she said, yes. And do you feel like your memory is as good as it was in 2017? And then, and, you know, she's like, probably not as good then, but I talked to police right after. And so then there's redirect by the prosecution. And they said, you became aware that Abby and Libby went missing that day.

like February 13th, 2017. Did you not? And you gave the police this info right away, right? And she said, yes, that's right. And so then cross again. Defense says, well, whatever that photo is, wasn't the last thing you did is sit on the bridge? And she said, actually,

they had me focus on the last thing of the day that I I did. So the last thing she did is actually sit on a on a bench. Next witness, just like clockwork, Brian Harshman. So once again, these were the three rebuttal witnesses. Brian Harshman on the stand, Indiana State Police, master trooper, detective. Now, to remind all of you, Brian Harshman is who listened to all of the phone calls of Richard Allen while he was in prayer. at Westville and so he's testifying to that they have him back and so he heard these confessions of Richard Allen so the prosecution asks him you listen to the phone calls from Richard Allen yes and from the Westville Correctional Facility and he was

he says yes that's right and he was in the Westville Correctional Facility and that's a one-man cell yes and he goes yes That's right. And then he went to, and then he was transferred, right? And he went to Wabash, and he was in a one-man cell there, and Harshman says, yes. And then he went to Cass County. And was he in a one-man cell there? And he says, yes. And so he was in a one-person cell in Cass County. Of course, they explained there was a day room with a table and chairs at Cass County, and the cell is a bit bigger. Is that correct? And Harsman says, yes. And then they say, but however, does he have as much social interaction at Cass County as he did in Westville? And the answer is no, not as much social interaction

as he had at Westville. So he has less social interaction at Cass County where he is now than he had at Westville. And so did he not, does he have less recreation? time now, less and less social interaction now than when he was at Westville. And they explained, yes, in Cass County, he does not have as much wreck time either. And again, less social interaction. So they're obviously sort of implying that have, you know, was it, were they this extreme? You know, was it this extreme at the first place he stayed at Westville? And so they ask him, Could he have conversations with his neighbors in his cell in Westville? And they said, yes, he could.

Harsman said, yes, he could. And he could not do that now in Cass County, right? No, he cannot. Has he had any issues eating his poop or banging his head anywhere else except for Westville? And he says no. And then they ask him, this is interesting. Then the prosecution asks him, are there any issues that he has had at Cass County? And he answers, he answers, yes.

He, so Harsman answers, yes. There are problems at Cass County. He is threatening the staff. The defense quickly objects, and there is a sidebar. Again, we've all known that the prosecution has wanted to bring in these alleged threats that he made towards law enforcement while he's been at Cass County. This is recent. They have a sidebar and actually Judge Goal sustains the,

defense's objection there and nothing else has said about that. So that's it for Harshman, he's done, done so. And then witness three is Dr. John Martin. Dr. John Martin, he is wearing a suit and a long red tie. He is very tall. He is very thin. He looks Indian to me, which was confirmed later with his accent and learning that he went to medical school in Banglador. We'll get to that in a little bit. Tom Webster, thank you so much. Go check out Tom. Tom podcast on this case. He's one of the many friends that we have met here. So they ask Dr. John Martin first off, how do you know Richard Allen? And he explains that he was his patient in Westville from November 22 to November of 23. And what care did you do for Richard Allen? And Dr. John Martin says that he is a psychiatrist

and he was Richard Allen's psychiatrist. And they explained, you know, tell us about your background. They explained that he had some basic medical schooling at St. John's. He did a residency in 1969. He finished in 1976. And he completed training and he is a licensed psychiatrist currently in three states.

He's been a licensed psychologist and psychiatrist, excuse me. He's medical. So just so you guys know, a psychiatrist is a medical doctor. It's someone that goes to medical school. They are a medical doctor. So while psychologists are PhDs.

So he is a licensed psychiatrist in 1986 in Florida. He also is licensed in Indiana and Illinois. And he is licensed currently in all three. When did you begin work here in 2020? His first job in Florida, his first corrections job was in Florida. And he's almost always worked in corrections since 1983. And so it's essentially the equivalent of 25 years working in corrections, providing

psychiatric care to jails and prisons, both female and male. So he explains it, he continues on. He's visited 16 major prisons in Florida to resolve some issues, explaining more of his background. The nature of his work between 2022 and 2020 and 23 started at the Indiana State Prison, where he would work 40 hours a week. Then in February of 2022, the psychiatrist retired and they asked him to help out and he started working at Westville in 2022. So it was November 22 where he first met Mr. Allen or Richard Allen. He had an office he had an office that was in a very secure facility in Westville where he would, you know, interview people, but then that's when he was transferred though. Oh, so that's when Richard Allen.

that he explains was transferred from jail in 1122 because he was in danger. And so Richard Allen was transferred from jail to Westville corrections because he was in danger and they transferred him for his safety. He, and then, so I think I might have gotten the first part wrong that he used to or doesn't anymore have an office at Westville because then, they explained well you put the records you kept the records safely because you did not have an office in westville is that correct and he says yes ma'am and i want to explain he does he does have a thick accent and he speaks very quietly uh dr martin does so there were times where i couldn't hear

everything but i did get a lot so let's go through this together so he doesn't have an office in westville his office is elsewhere and they she the the prosecution is or the state prosecution state, same, same, is asking, you know, how he kept records for safety if he didn't have an office in Westville. He put them into the system. He kept them safe until he got to his office. Yes, ma'am. And then she asks, and this is Dean are doing questioning. She asks, we're all patients at the Westville Correctional Unit. And Dr. Martin explains that he had patients throughout at different places. And so he would go to see them in Westville and then he would go back to wherever his office was located because he would visit several different facilities. And he would

see everyone. And after he would see everyone for that day, he would go back to his office where he would write everything down. And he would go all throughout his notes and put everything into a secure system. And that is where he kept all his notes. And so Deaner asks, so no one else could go in and make records in your name, could they? And he said, absolutely not. This is very secure. Everyone has their own login. It logs whenever someone's logging into the system, what they're writing. No, no one could do this for me. And then Deaner asks, what would be your job? Would you prescribe medication? And he says, yes, I would prescribe medication. Well, question, when he came in from detention, He came in, you know, detention was where he was being held until he was transferred to Westfield for his safety.

So when he came and was transferred from detention, Richard Allen came on Prozac due to a history of depression and anxiety. Were there any changes, if there were any changes after that, would they be kept in this record that you're referring to? And he explains, yes, they would be kept in this record. And then whoever was helping with him would sign off for that day with initials. Everything was really detailed. And he says, and if he doesn't take the meds, People would also have to put their initials down and explain that. And one way that I would really understand what was going on with them is I would rely on records because the nurses would also inform us if he doesn't take medications.

But it's a record that anyone can look at and anyone can initial. So Deaner asked for this medical record, it's regularly kept in your business. And he said, yes, it's there. And then an exhibit is handed to him and the exhibit are notes that he wrote. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the Internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers, spammers, even stalkers.

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can look at these documents to and refer to him refer to these documents during his testimony rosy actually objects to exhibit 320 based on hearsay but it is overruled by the judge and then they continue deaner continues with questioning a doctor allen at westville correctional unit are you uh was he was richard allen there being kept as a safe keeper and he says yes a safekeeping it's like It means safekeeping, but they refer to a safekeeper. What's one financial lesson you learned the hard way? I'll go first. It's not too late to start saving.

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and safekeeping, safekeeper? And his answer is yes. Sometimes someone is sent to prison for safe keeping because he wasn't safe in the county jail. Thus they are sent here for safekeeping. And then he says, I have treated safe keepers. who were in general population. Mr. Allen, though, was in where we could refer to it as solitary confinement or a one-man cell. A one-man cell, Dr. Martin says, is the same room where a person, it can be a same room, where a person who puts a same room that someone that is in solitary confinement could be put for punitive reasons. Like someone who might be being punished, it could be.

put there to be isolated and he would get time there. Mr. Allen had not done anything wrong, but he must have kind of felt it wasn't right. But we had to keep him safe and alive. We needed to override the decision. It was what was chosen for him. I thought that this was a really interesting answer because I don't know if that was a great answer for the prosecution. And at that moment, for me. It made me trust Dr. Martin even more. I'm like, this is simply a witness, not for the defense, not for the prosecution. This is a doctor on the stand that's a witness telling the truth about what happened. At least that is what I felt after that answer, because I don't even felt he answered it the way they wanted them to, if that makes sense. I was like, oh, interesting.

So then Diener asks, do you have familiarity with solitary confinement? And he said, yes, for a whole year, I was in charge of solitary confinement for women in the state of Florida. And so she says, okay, so by comparison, did you see different things that Richard Allen had versus what people in solitary confinement had? And he and Dr. Martin said, yes. Richard Allen had a lot of meetings with the warden, with lawyers, with psychologists. We were always seeing what we could do to make things better for him. We gave him a tablet. We offered a TV.

He had recreation. He was given phone calls. And then Deiner asks, and what about S companions? And he answered, yes, when he expressed S ideation or self-harm, He would be given an S gown, an S blanket, no sheets to keep him safe, and he had to be seen by medical. Dr. Walla, Dr. Martin, you know, medical staff, we would sometimes see him inside his cell and sometimes outside his cell. He went out for recreation and he went out of his cell for phone calls. Rosie then asks the defense.

Rosie asks for foundational to ask a foundational question before the prosecution continues in their question of Dr. Martin. And Rosie asks, you only met with Richard Allen 18 times in 13 months. Is that correct? And he said yes. And did you ever review videos of Richard Allen? And Dr. Martin's response was, no, I didn't review videos because I saw. saw him and the videos were always being recorded. In other words, I was in the videos.

Like, I didn't need to watch videos because I was able to watch Richard Allen. Like, he was always being recorded, so I was there. And so then the objects, so then Rosie objects and says that he doesn't feel like this is enough for him to give an opinion and its objections overruled. Dr. Martin explains that he would go on Tuesdays to the Westfield Correctional facility to see Richard Allen. There's an objection. And let's see, hold on. Okay, overruled. So back to, so back to Dr. Martin in 11 of 2022.

And so to remind everyone that this is November 2020, Richard Allen was arrested October 26th, so he arrived at Westville this month, brand new, newbie at Westville, November 2022. And so on November 8th, Dr. Martin reviewed notes and then went and saw him. And I asked, and I looked at him. And he was stable at this time in November of 2022. He did have a history of depression and anxiety, but Dr. Allen didn't really see symptoms,

but he continued the medications that he came to Westville with, which consisted of, I think, believe Prozac. Then January 24, 2023, I said, I need him to sign consent for meds. An informed consent is really important to us, Dr. Martin explains. And so they had him sign a consent for Prozac to continue giving that to him. January 23, so this would be a couple months later, he seems to be doing well. According to protocol, I was to see him. every three every once every six months or once every three months dr martin said as long as he was doing well so he did not go back and see him until april 24th because in january he was doing fine but the reason why he went and saw him on april 24th is that he actually got a call to go see mr allen

unplanned and he is now going to share the information from his own observations that day this time is really important because of how this plays out so we know that in November of 22 when he arrives history of depression meds continue doesn't need to see him for another six months but he is called oh January he's doing great that's two months later then he gets this call April 24th um hold on so I said April 24th but now I have April 24th but now I have April 13th So, so let's go with April 13th because I think for some reason, I don't know, maybe I don't know what April 24th is, but he saw, he got a call in April to go see Mr. Allen and planned and he's asking to share the info from his own observation. So April 13th, April 13th, 2023, 22, I believe. No, 223, excuse me. So what did you observe from your visit on April 13th, 2023? Well, he, when they went to West, he says he was met by the warden and so like he was called in it was kind of an emergency and he saw the patient he refers to richard allen sometimes as the patient i saw the patient lying naked on a

mattress with feces smeared all over him and i saw brown coming from his mouth which to me he was eating his feces they interrupted him at this moment and said did you see him eating his feces and he says no i didn't see him eating his feces this is the prosecution going whoa you didn't see him eating feces. And he's like, no, I didn't see him eating feces, but I saw Brown coming from his mouth, which I think means that he was eating feces. And he said, I needed to talk to him. So that's when he said, officers put him in a shower cell and put him in a new S-gown and brought him to the nurse's office and I tried to assess him there. So my guess too, by the way, this is what the jury saw. When they saw videos, of Richard Allen on mute in prison that the gallery was not allowed to see in the courtroom. I feel pretty confident this is what they saw because I had heard, you know, there were some

reporters that saw some things on, you know, to the side of it and they said something about a shower and being restrained while being showered. So to me, that's what it sounds like they saw. So officers put them in a shower cell, put them in a new escrow. down, brought him to the nurse's office, I tried to assess him there. The presentation was different that day. So on April 13th, 2023, the presentation was different. Dr. Martin says he was psychotic. And in order to treat the psychosis, I had to give him an antipsychotic. But in the process of interviewing him, I was looking for two things, insight and judgment. So insight.

Insight means, does Richard Allen have an understanding of reality? And then judgment is, can Richard Allen make the right decisions that are in his best interest? So insight, understanding of reality. Judgment, can he make the right decisions for his best interest? He saw that Richard Allen's insight that day was sufficient. But his judgment that day was impaired. So insight sufficient, meaning he understands reality, judgment. Can he make the right decisions to his best interest impaired?

But he also decided he was psychotic and that he needed to treat the psychosis. So the meds that he chose that day on April 13th, 2023, were Hadall. And they have an advantage. There are three forms of head all. One is Hal doll, excuse me, one is a fast injection and one is an oral, you know, that you take, and one is a long-term one-month injection that's like slow release and lasts for 30 days. So he called the regional psychologist for the state of Indiana, and he explained his findings to him. There was an emergency meeting the very next day on April 4th.

14th, 2023. Two psychiatrists were there plus Dr. Walla. And they all of them agreed together that Richard Allen presented with some psychosis and that he needed some involuntary medication at that moment. Again, the meeting of this was dated April 14th, 23. So we know we have the April 13th date right because he said this was the day after the psychosis. So that meeting was April 14th, 23, the day after we saw him. And it was noted and reported. They decided to do long acting medication, but in addition to that, therapy. And he has the reports for these recommendations and the criteria. And the basis for this decision was that all of the doctors in that room agreed together. And this is how they decided to go forward with the involuntary medication. He said that while his

record showed no allergies to any medications, that they felt it best to start with short acting hal doll to just see if there was any major side effects rather than a dose that would last 30 days. So they gave him a short-acting hal doll, and they gave him five milligrams into the muscle. This is a once a day, this is considered a once-a-day low dose. And then that was on April 14th. They also decided to do that on April 15th, 16th, and 17th. So four days in a row. After four days of the five-millimeter low-dose, once-a-day short-acting how-doll, when there were no

no extreme side effects or anything and no reactions, now they felt they knew that they could give him the long term. So they gave him 15 milligrams of Haldol every two weeks. It's again the long acting dose. And he said that giving him 15 milligrams is also very low because the highest milligram that you could give of the long is 450 milligrams. And so giving them 15 milligrams. And so giving him 15 milligrams every two weeks is like getting less than two milligrams a day. So it was actually a lower dose than the daily he was getting. This is all really important because of what they've sort of discussed about involuntary medication or in being over-medicated. This is really interesting stuff. It's very interesting. Then he explains that the next time he saw him was April 18,

2023. And they asked him, then Dean or asked. So on April 18th, 2020, so this would be 14, 15, 15, 16, 5 days after he was really, he was diagnosed psychotic, they said, did he still present as psychotic on that day? And he said, Dr. Martin said, yes. And that's when they chose, that was the very day that they chose to start that long-term medication. And then the next time he saw him was April 25th, 2023. And on April 25th, 2023, he said, yes, psychotic symptoms, presentation of psychotic symptoms, but there was improvement on the 25th of April. He explained that the height of psychosis was on the 13th of April. And so after that, the long-acting dose on the 18th and on the 25th, he realized that there was improvement between the 18th and 25th. And here is his April 25th notes. On his April 25th notes

was there was no evidence of smearing anything. He, Richard Allen recognized Dr. Martin. Richard Allen's, Dr. Martin explains that he would walk away and Richard Allen would say doctor and he would come back and he says that Richard Allen did that three different times, meaning that it showed that he understood some reality. He knew that Dr. Martin was the doctor, right? He knew he was the doctor and he was asking him to come back. But then he says he didn't know the date. So that was something that didn't present well. That's why there were signs of psychosis. But he was oriented. because in some sense, because he knew he was in prison. He also asked for a dry blanket that day. He was asking for his wife, and he asked for Taco Bell, and he was showing improvement in his speech. And this is where there was, by the way, a lot of objection because, again, Dr. Martin likes to give very long answers

and explain everything in detail. That's, like, just sort of his nature. You can just tell, like, there's some people who just want to explain everything. And so they had to keep saying, Dr. Martin, just keep your answers short and succinct. He explained also that Richard Allen's memory was not affected. He was getting sleep at this time. He was asking for a shower, which was an improvement. He was eating.

And there was some sadness. So, again, psychosis, but improvement. And then the next visit was May 2nd, 2023. And Dr. Martin visited him on May 2nd, 2023. And on this date, he observed Richard Allen line on a mattress with an S blanket. He was coherent. And Dr. Martin saw no evidence of psychosis on... Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day.

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So he felt the psychosis was gone. Then on May 8th he visited, so it was like six days later, and he wrote in his notes that he was coherent, that he was sleeping, that he was eating, and he was continuing his therapy sessions with Dr. Walla, and they were giving him his medication then, and sometimes he would refuse. You know what? I feel like I got fragments of this. me on that let's get rid of the higher dose and the meds and the sometimes refusing i don't know if i have

that right so let's just nix that so i'm but this is what i do know on may 8th 2023 he was coherent he was sleeping he was eating he was sane he was continuing doctor wall of therapy sessions and on that date may 8th 2023 i have as in quotes there were no signs or symptoms of psychosis the next visit may 23rd 23rd on this day may May 23, 23, on that day, two, no signs of psychosis. Now, we're to May 30th,

2020. So it's now been almost a month now of continuous no signs of psychosis. On May 30th, 2023, no evidence of psychosis. He is eating meals, he is eating, and he is attending therapy. He was fine.

June 20th, 2023. Now, two months after he said no evidence of psychosis, June 20th, 20, 23, no evidence of psychosis. On that day, Dr. Martin decided to stop all medication of the Haldol. So the injection provided, the injection that had provided, he reminded everyone, it was a very low dose, but he was coherent in his speech. He had no anxiety that he could tell. he showed no signs he had now at this point showed no signs of psychosis for several weeks and so at this moment they stopped the medication that day dr martin says that although he had heard that richard allen had confessed to others um he had never done so with dr martin and dr martin never encouraged or asked him to and on this day june 20th twenty three without encouragement, he said to Dr. Martin, in quotes, I would like to apologize to the families of Abby and Libby.

Dr. Martin again says, this was by Richard Allen's own free will. While he had said it to others, it was now to me. I saw no signs of psychosis or depression. He then gives the abbreviated version of what psychosis is and it essentially is when reality is in question. He explains that the effects of hal doll, it's an anti-psychotic. And essentially an anti-psychotic helps get Richard Allen back to his healthy, back to reality. Back to reality.

Was there any abuse of the hal doll, Diener asks Dr. Martin? And he says, no. This is a secure facility. There was no abuse of Haldol or Prozac. And there was no Prozac during this time either because the med he was on was an anti- Take that back. There was no abuse of Haldahl or Prozac and the meds he was on was an antidepressant. They asked could Prozac have played a role in psychosis?

No. That's when we had lunch. and when we come back from lunch, cross-exam begins with Rosie and Dr. Martin is still on the stand. What is... Dax are you? Tracking all our cars on Carvano value tracker?

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And Dr. Martin corrects him and says, no, it wasn't Mumbai. It was Banglador. And then Rosie questions if he was terminated from a job in Florida. Dr. Martin says, yes, he was. And then Dr. Rosie says there was a lawsuit. You've dealt with, you've had lawsuits about solitary confinement. Dr. Martin says no. And then Rosie says, well, you testified about it.

No. And then Deiner asked for a sidebar and we move on. Don't know what that's about. And then there's a, Rosie asks, do you remember our deposition in early October? He says yes.

And it said that you said it was challenging to treat someone in solitary confinement. Dr. Martin says, yes, it is. And Rosie says, well, in down in Westville,

you were working at the state prison and you explained that you were working there and there was a significant backlog, like almost 200, 150 inmates backlog. He goes, yep, that's true. You hear the train.

And then Rosie says, can you explain serious mental illness or SMI? Are you familiar with the Department of Corrections definition of serious mental illness? He says no, and there's an objection. And then Rosie says, well, did you tell me that serious mental illness equals schizophrenia, bipolar? And he said like three other things, and I couldn't get it. it wasn't psychosis, but it was schizophrenia, bipolar, and other mental illnesses. And Dr. Martin says yes.

And then Rosie says, well, solitary confinement can cause serious mental illness, right? And Dr. Martin says, yes. And then Rosie says, well, and Ken's solitary confinement exacerbate mental illness. And Dr. Martin says, I agree. Yes. And then Rosie asks, do you agree? he was in a state of psychosis, and he agrees with that. And Rosie says, and do you, can people move in and out of psychosis?

He agrees. You saw him 18 different times. He, uh, Rosie asks. He says, yes. Um, but, and he goes, and, but there were some meetings, though, that you would just see him through a crack of a door, which were clearly shorter than 30 minute meetings. No. And Dr. Martin says yes. And Rosie asking on January, 2003 through April 13th, 2020, you had no contact with Mr. Allen. Is that correct? He said, yes, that's true. Because again,

Dr. Martin testified he saw him in November. He saw him in January and then he didn't see him until April 13th when he saw psychosis and he went in there. So right, he didn't see him from January to April. True. And then Rosie asks, Dr. Walla, you say would be a better source then for Richard Allen because she saw him like all the time. Dr. Martin says, yes, I did say that. And then he said, well, and didn't you say that Dr. Walla was in a better position to observe his mental health? He says, yes, I did say that. And when did you see him, Rosie asks, when you did see him at the door cell? Did you just see him for just a minute? And he said, yes. And did you ever watch Cell or

camcorder videos he said no rosyax did you describe richard allen as very psychotic on may 13th there was a major objection to that and he came back and apologized and he said i'm so sorry i meant april 13th and again april 13th is the naked feces eating day feces eating day so he apologized there was no may 13th but april 13th do you admit would you administer hal dot did you administer held all three different times. Rosie, the defense, asked. Dr. Martin said yes. And then Rosie says, and then you administered a 30-day shot on April 18th,

and then on May 18th, and then June 18th. And he said, yes. And Rosie says, and did you administer these drugs for someone who is psychotic? And this, oh, you administer this drug for people that are psychotic. And Dr. Martin says, yes. And then Rosie says, well, did you know he had major depressive disorder? Dr. Martin says, yes. Well, and are there things that could exacerbate major depressive disorder, Rosie asks.

And Dr. Martin says, yes. And did you report that you, did you record that Richard Allen also engaged in paranoia? Because he thought his attorneys were cops. And Dr. Martin said, yes. he reported to Dr. Walla that, well, he reported to Dr. Walla that one of his attorneys was a good cop and one was a bad cop. And then it was an objection hearsay, which was sustained and make sense because it came from Dr. Walla. And then Rosie asks, were you concerned that he had a 50 pound weight loss? You said that that wasn't normal, correct? And he said, yeah, that's not normal. And then he asked, who you ever treated a pretrial detainee in prison? Rosie asks. Dr. Martin says, yes. Rosie has a hard time with that answer and says, well, can I refresh your memory? Page 55, line 17 through 23. Diener has an objection to this line of questioning. All the witnesses have said is that he was in safekeeping. The objection is sustained. Rosie then says, look, Dr. Martin, you have your working office at the Indiana State Police and Westville, but yet you're in Westfield actually conducting business.

were you administering meds from an office that was not at Westville? And he said, yes, once. Once I did that. Well, Rosie asks, are you aware of any reasons he was put in safekeeping? Another objection by the prosecution that was sustained because it was beyond his expertise, and that actually makes sense. So in other words, Rosie asks, Dr. Martin, are you aware of any reasons that Richard Allen was put in safekeeping? And the bottom line is that was a decision made at the detention center where Richard Allen was being held.

And so it wasn't, it wasn't Dr. Martin's area of expertise. So that objection was sustained. Rosie continues with his cross. In 2022, did he have any lawyers assigned when you first saw him? And then when you first saw him. And then in November of 2022, did you conduct an interview with him? And he says, yes, I did. And Rosie says, but it was not a psychiatric assessment.

No, it was not. It was an interview. Well, and did you, on November of 2022, did you report Mr. Allen used alcohol socially? And did you, did you solitary confinement, something, did you make a differentiation between solitary confinement versus one man's cell? And Dr. Martin's answer is, Mr. Allen had done nothing wrong. so it was for his safety, he wasn't put into solitary confinement. And then Rosie says, but that makes it even more confusing then, doesn't it? Like, that he hasn't done anything wrong yet he's in the cell all by himself.

And Dr. Martin agreed with Rosie on that. He goes, yeah, I agree. It makes it even more confusing. Well, do you agree that the circumstances would be extremely uncomfortable for Richard Allen? And Dr. Martin's answer is, I would not say extremely, in quotes. because the warden was making sure it was very comfortable for Richard Allen. He would see Dr. Walla. He would see his lawyers.

He would see his family. He would have rec time and he would have frequent meetings. Were you present when Dr. May or Dr. Bonner were there with him? He said, yes. And then I don't really know where that went. And then he asked, earlier you testified on June 20th, 2023, that Alan was oriented in place and time.

And that's when you testified that he wanted to apologize to the parents. That was when he confessed to you. He wanted to apologize to the parents of Libyan Abbey on June 20, 20, 23. And he said yes. And that's when he was oriented. So then Rosie says, well, I want to play a video of Richard Allen then. and he plays a video of Richard Allen on June 20th, 2023. Now, this video was also mute.

It was camcorder video. It was very shaky. And so when I say camcorder, I mean camcorder. I don't know who was filming, but it reminded me of videos I would make in 1989 with a legit camcorder. It was all over the place. We were able to see it. At times, Diener was actually kind of standing. in front of it. So that blocked it from like a lot of the gallery. But we were all going back and forth,

seeing parts of this video, you know, back and forth. So we see this video. Deiner asks to see the exhibit and to verify the date of this video and it is June 20th, 2023. So again, this date is the date that it's been like several weeks that he has not seen psychosis in Richard Allen and has decided to take him off medication and is the day that Dr. Martin says that he said to him that he wanted to apologize to the families of Abby Libby. So the camcorder video begins. Now I have reaction. I have what I saw on the video. What I saw in the court. What I saw in the video. So in the video it starts with Richard Allen. He's a shorts and a t-shirts and he's in a medical chair that and he is restrained in the medical

chair and he's getting his vitals tested from what we can see and um Richard Allen I would say he looks subdued that was the first thing I wrote down he looks subdued in the video um I asked everybody else their adjectives after court I put subdued and I put sedated somebody else said he just kind of looked dazed. So I don't know, take that for what you want. Subdued, sedated, dazed. He wasn't fighting. He just looked, I don't know.

He looked like Richard Allen to me. He looked thin, shorts, t-shirts, and again, he was restrained in a medical chair while they took his vitals. Richard Allen in court watching this was really interesting. Richard Allen can't watch himself. He looks to the right, so Richard Allen has always looked at the screen. Crime scene photos, looks.

Autopsy photos looks. Richard Allen on the screen in a medical chair, he turned his head to the right like this, and he looks like he is crying while everyone's watching the video. And he won't not watch the video. He's touching his face with his left hand and he's kind of going like this. I see what looked to be tears in Richard Allen's eyes and I see his attorney Baldwin grab his arm on his right side. And then with his, so he's rubbing his face with his fist while Baldwin grabs his arm.

I write again the video he looks subdued in the video in court now the court Richard Allen is now rubbing his eye over and over again with his left thumb like this kind of like but he's looking to the right he still won't look so videos over to the left and he's looking to the right and it's kind of towards his family but it's just a profile and he's rubbing his eye like up here with his left thumb and I notice that his thumb is glistening and I suspect it's a tear so I do suspect that there was an actual tear in his eye because of the way his thumb was glistening. Again, in the video, the camp quarter video, I write, this is where I write, he looks sedated. He is strapped to a medical chair while vitals are being taken, and there are multiple people in there, female and male, and it looks like medical staff in the prison checking on him.

So then there's a sidebar and the video is paused and Richard Allen is still looking away. He will not look in Baldwin is comforting him. Rosie then says to Dr. Martin, is this the same Richard Allen that you felt was aware of person, place, and time on June 20th, 2023? And he says yes. And then redirect from the prosecution. Giener says, Did the staff follow you to Richard Allen's cell and record your conversation? And he said, yeah, there were one to two officers with me.

When did the conversation occur? He says on June 20th, referring to this conversation where he apologized. And where did this conversation occur in an interview cell, he says. did you spend did you spend more time with him that day than you would at his door dr martin says yes would you need to communicate to determine the orientation of person place and time with richard allen that day

would you need to have like a longer dialogue he says yes would you have to have a dialogue with richard allen to determine whether or not you saw psychosis or not or to have him talk to you And he said, yes. And did he ask you to, did he ask to speak to you about apologizing? He said, no, he did it on his own. I mean, yes, he asked me and he asked me to talk to me about it, and he did this on his own.

One to two officers then were with you. Was it recorded? They asked Dr. Martin. He says he doesn't remember. Why was his behavior different in his? his in this video, then when you met, was his behavior different in this video than when you met with him? And Dr. Martin's answer is yes. Does it make you question your own record about what happened? Dr. Martin says no. Did Richard Allen have depression and anxiety? Yes. So would that be

Richard Allen's baseline that he does deal with depression anxiety? Yes, that would be his baseline. So then you notice psychosis then when there is psychosis when he's not on his baseline. He goes, yes, I noticed psychosis back. And does after you notice the psychosis and record that, you later, does Richard Allen return to his baseline? And he said, yes, on May 2nd, 23, Richard Allen was back at his baseline. So you say he was back at his baseline as of May 2nd, 2023, and he says yes. So then why did you continue Hal Dahl after that until June 20th? And Dr. Martin says, well, there can be an exacerbation and remission of psychosis, and I didn't want that to happen. I kept, once I understood that he was back at his baseline, I kept him on the meds for seven more weeks and there were no more signs of psychosis. And that's when I decided I could take him off the medication. And then there was a recrossed by Rosie. On June 20th, 23, they asked, was that a spontaneous visit? And he said, I think he asked if it was a spontaneous visit. And he said,

said yes and then yes did you see anything in the video that would make you think the that this conversation you and richard allen had was spontaneous okay so now i understand what he means by spontaneous let's reread that so it's clear so recrossed by rosy the defense is back on again and he said okay let's go back to this june 20th 20th 23 date we saw this video of um you know looking uh subdued and and restrained in this medical chair and you're telling me, Dr. Martin, that this conversation you had with Richard Allen was this spontaneous conversation where he wanted to confess to you or say he wanted to apologize to the families. And Dr. Martin says, yeah, it was. And so Rosie says, well, did you see anything in the video that I just showed you

where you think that your conversation with you could be spontaneous? I did not get his answer. It was too quiet. It was a one word to answer. Couldn't hear it. Question by Rosie, did you see anything that made you question your observations on June 20th, 2023. Could not hear his conversation. Could not hear his answer. Both were quiet one-word answers. I'll try to find out before tonight. I'll tell you what's on the docket for tonight.

We have some stuff. So that moment, it's jury questions. Here are the jury questions. Question one. Did the oral howled all continue with his other meds? After June 6th, 2023, Dr. Martin checks his records, and the answer is yes. Next question. What time did you meet with Richard Allen on June 20, 20th, 2023?

And Dr. Martin says that it was early, usually went to Westville around 6 or 7, around breakfast time. Next question, June 20th, 2023, by the jury. Could this video of Richard Allen on June 20th, 2023, could this be a presentation of feigning or malingering? Dr. Martin says, no, I don't think so. Deiner then follows up with, well, is there anything in that video that would be indicative of psychosis? And Dr. Martin says, no. In other words, there was nothing in that video that looked like it could show that he was in psychosis or anything like that. And that was that. So then Judge Gull says, okay, thank you.

We are going to prepare for final arguments tomorrow. And we're going to call it a day for the jury. And that's why we're here and we're going live early with everything that happened and we're going live. At that moment, it was just before 3 p.m., I believe. Yeah, just before 3. It was 2 something. And so the jury got to go back to where they're staying. And then we all left. Something interesting that happened at the end after the jury left. Rosie and the defense brought up a third-party person again, Elvis. and I couldn't hear everything Rosie was saying, but then the judge goal essentially said, so let me get this straight.

You want to put a warrant out for an arrest for someone for failing to respond to a subpoena, yet I've ruled they can't testify because there's no nexus in this. And then I couldn't hear the defense. I can only hear Judge Cole. And then they concluded that. And, uh,

I asked the producer sitting next to me what she heard. She was like, yeah, you know, she got about what I got. We left the courtroom and now this is where I am. I have not left. The reason why I'm going live on location is because I have not left the courthouse. And for those joining late, this is why. Big, big stuff going on. And again, being in court is becoming even,

more extreme privilege. I feel like we're going to get in in the morning and it's going to take a village to get in after lunch. But that's what's going on. Now's the time for a great deal on a new Honda. It's time to take an adventure with rugged capability and commanding style. Check out the Honda Ridgeline, Pilot or CRV.

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