Hidden True Crime - DELPHI TRIAL DAY 18: DRAMATIC CLOSING ARGUMENTS with Dr. John Matthias

Episode Date: November 23, 2024

Lauren Matthias is inside the Courtroom in Delphi, Indiana for the trial of Richard Allen, and bringing us the very latest from Carroll County as the trial has no audio or video recording. Richard Allen is charged with murdering 13-year-old Abigail Williams and 14-year-old Liberty German in 2017. About Hidden True Crime: Lauren Matthias, a former television reporter, and her husband Dr. John Matthias, a criminal psychologist, started Hidden True Crime in 2020 with their Season, 'Beyond the Veil,' a psychological deep dive into the doomsday murders and prophet. What started as a simple conversation at their dinner table became a captivating podcast. Join the dynamic duo of Dr. John Matthias, a forensic psychologist, and Lauren Matthias, an investigative journalist, as they delve into the psychological facets of unthinkable crimes every week. Their unique perspectives and in-depth analysis offer a fresh take on true crime storytelling. Thank you for your support through sponsorships, subscribing, listening, and becoming a Patreon member at Patreon.com/HiddenTrueCrime Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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premium materials like European linen, organic cotton, but they cut out the middleman. So everything is priced way lower than you'd expect. Refresh. your every day with luxury you can actually use. Head to quince.com slash hidden true crime for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quince, quince, q-u-in-c-com slash hidden true crime for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash hidden true crime. I'm continuing to report from Delphi, Indiana, spending long nights in line and sitting in court each day to bring you detailed reports from the Richard Allen trial. Alan is charged with murdering best friends, 13-year-old Abigail Williams, and 14-year-old Liberty German in February of 2017. And the judge has actually decided to not only

not televise this trial, but to also not even share audio. Thus, I am here to be the eyes and ears of the courtroom. These episodes are nightly live streams that I record on YouTube shortly after court ends each day. And if you notice these episodes are a bit more choppy than our other episodes, please understand why. We are working around the clock to bring you the very latest on the trial with a quick turnaround. And if you would like to catch the full unedited live stream, you can always head over to Hidden True Crime on YouTube. Hello, Hidden Jems. So much to discuss when it comes to the Richard Allen trial dramatic closing statements. And when I say dramatic, I mean dramatic. I was in the courtroom for everything. And very,

very lucky that I was in the courtroom for everything. Very few people were. It took a village. It was very difficult. We had to have line sitters. A big thank you to Julie as well as Ted and Red last night again and Julie today. And just it's, I can't even explain how how bizarre everything is. and the efforts it is taking to get in the courtroom. So I was there again every moment today and was lucky. I was lucky. But I was there. They're only letting 17 people in today.

So this is, John, it's so good to see you. I guess maybe I should start with that. Usually I jump on these lives alone. And so maybe I should say, and by the way, I've got my, I call you my better half, but that people don't like that because, you know, my equal half, my, my, uh, my other full because we're each our own person. I don't know how people want to the, the politically correct way to say that I have my, uh, co-host and, uh, who also happens to be my husband here with us, the amazing Dr.

John Matthias. And I miss you and I'm so glad to see you. We, I'm going to go over the day's events today. There is so much going on, but we're going to do it a little bit different today. It's such a big day. The jury is going home for the night. I'll start with that. I'll start with what's going on right now. And I just felt like today it was time to bring you on, John, and to start talking about this. Of course, I convince you to jump on. We have the time right now. But yeah, I know that you and I also talked about doing something a little bit more for Patreon tonight. John and I feel that's really important. So we're going to go live with some thoughts here. He's going to actually start to, he's going to comment a little bit on the

day's events today. So we're going to, we're going to throw in some commentary with my journalism today from Dr. John. And then tonight we will be doing a Patreon member's only episode as well, where John fills, you still feel a little bit safer there, as you shared. This is a very polarizing trial. And there's a lot to unpack and break down and talk about. So we'll definitely be doing a good amount of that here. And then on Patreon later. Let me start, as we say in reporting the lead, what's going on this moment.

and then we'll jump back. The jury has been deliberating. They allegedly picked a four person because Judge Gull said that was their first job as she gave jury instructions this afternoon before we all left. She told us all that the schedule is as follows, that the jury was going to pick a four person. And then she suggested that she was going to send them home and by home to their hotels. they're sequestered around 4 p.m. this afternoon. It sounds like they have already gone home. So they actually left before.

So I think that might be a bit of a hint to them needing a lot of time to process all the evidence. And they will be without electronics and without visits from family. They will reconvene at 9 a.m. Indiana time, East. time tomorrow morning to continue deliberating. I will be outside the courthouse and inside the courthouse while they do that. They can continue deliberating into Saturday. Saturday is a trial day when it comes to the Richard Allen trial and Sunday is a day off, as Judge Gull said today.

So everyone needs a day off. So there will be no deliberating on Sunday. day, according to Judge Gole. And they will not, though, if they are still deliberating on Sunday, they cannot visit family. And they cannot have electronics. So I think that also this is going to encourage this jury to move forward. The courtroom that we're in, this large courtroom, is going to be closed off. And Judge Gole explained that the jury is in the jury room.

but they might need some more space. And so they are going to be able to come and go from the courtroom. And while the jury is deliberating tomorrow or any time that they're deliberating in the jury room, the counsel for both the prosecution and the defense has to be in the courthouse and nearby, just in case they need to look at videos or evidence, like audio that perhaps attorneys, would need to set up for them. So that is happening. And I do have friends right now at the courthouse. Again, the jury has gone home for the night, but chairs are set up outside every hour, hour to hour, day to day. And they will allegedly, they will reconvene tomorrow to continue

deliberating. So and by home, I always say they're home tonight. I mean, wherever they're staying, home is where your bed is so i i mean the hotels where they're staying yeah let me just make a comment about how valuable i think it is that the jury is sequestered so i hope the jury is not accessing outside information because this is a case unlike any i've seen recently where information is so restricted from the courtroom, both in and out of the courtroom. I mean, obviously, reporters are now in the courtroom like yourself, when you can be, or every day. But this is a case that for the most part, seems to be people want to try this case in the court of public opinion more than any, and on social media, more than any case, more than any case. more than any case I've seen recently, and I think no doubt by by creators adopting a perspective

and a narrative about this case and pushing it out on social media, that that will influence public opinion, which presumably could influence or infect a jury pool. So the sequester part, I think, is really important here. Yeah, I agree. The jury. has been sequestered this entire trial. They have had their electronics, you know, and they have been allowed visits with family on Sundays. But they have to answer every day to say that they're not doing research. You know, we don't know, you know. But, yeah, I agree with you.

They have to, they have access to electronic devices, but they're sworn to say that they're not using them the next basically is that? Yep. And then during this deliberation process, they do not get their electronics. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I agree with you.

People, this is a trial that people are wanting to try. Yeah, with public opinion. I agree. Yeah. And I think, you know, you and I have, we've done some interviews with people where this, this very issue has been discussed. people have asked us about the impact of social media on true crime, the impact of true crime communities, Facebook groups, right? And I think this is a really interesting trial where all of that is coming into play.

And it's particularly salient because the information is very restricted, right? So I think we see this in other cases, but I think we see it here. It's amplified here because there's no. right, there's no, there's no video coming out of the courtroom or audio, right? So people don't have access to information, which allows creators to push their narratives, whether their narratives are accurate or not, right? Whether they're misinformation or not, they can push that perspective on social media and nobody can fact check or nobody can, right, nobody can view or, I mean, aside from hopefully

people like yourself that are taking notes and just presenting what happened, kind of a play-by-play scenario, this case really opens the door to a lot of interesting problems, I think. Yeah. I agree. And, yeah, I agree. It's like without audio or video in the courtroom, too, it's like going back to a time many of us might remember, you know, before cell phones and before laptops, where we had

to rely on TV reporters, but, but, you know, and journalists and newspapers, but the interesting thing is we still have social media and we still have some new modern technology to get information out there. And we're a part of that, right? And so, so it's this odd mix of like, in the courtroom, the lack of transparency, yet we all are still sharing what we can. Oh, one second. I need to also, my phone, I just realized is connected to my computer and I need to somehow detach my phone so it doesn't call. Forgive me, everyone. Okay. All right. Well, let's start with the day's events. And it's actually, I'm smiling because it's just, it's fun to not only be able to tell the chat what's going on and all of our hidden gems, but to tell you. And to be able to,

it's almost like being able to talk to you at night. And then this happened and this happened. And so let's start with, you know, all of the families were there. Again, it was a very, very full courtroom, packed. About 17 of us could come in from out. side again. I was lucky to be one of them. Again, one of the last. I, I kind of showed people the line. It's just, I don't, I will do a whole other show when I'm home about, you know, stories from the Delphi court line. I could do a whole series on that. But Richard Allen, so we got in there. When Richard Allen came in, he sat down, he was actually smiling and laughing with Baldwin before court talking and drinking a coffee.

He had like a to-go cup of coffee and he was sipping it. He had a green shirt on, button down, glasses on his head. And I noticed that Anna Williams, Anna Williams, which is Abby Williams' mother was crying even before court began. And they were passing out tissues to everyone in the family. I also noticed some unique signs on all of the chairs. They've always sort of had it.

This is for the defense. This is for the prosecution. But today they had it very specific with the seats they had saved. They had reserved for Libby's family, reserved for Abby's family, reserved for Allen's, the Allen family, reserved for credentialed media.

I mean, everything was very specific. Before court even began, a Kleenex box was being passed around the courtroom on the prosecution side. So between the families of Abby and Libby and more family than I've ever seen, grandparents from both sides, you know, some cousins, aunts, uncles. They were there. Judge Gull reminds us not to talk or whisper. and one interesting moment too was then when the defense attorney, Ajay came up to write in front of me where a YouTuber was sitting and handed them a post-it note and then went back up and into the box where the council is supposed to be turned around and smiled

at them and they had a moment. I don't know it was on the Post-it note, but it's not like the Chad Daybell trial where counsel could not talk to people in the gallery or make friends with YouTubers. So jury instructions were read by Judge Gould. That was actually the first thing to happen. And Judge Gull explained that that's what she prefers

is to be able to share the jury instructions before the closing arguments. And they were given the copies of the final instructions. And she explained that the state bears a burden of proof. And the state will begin and they will end. So count one, they explained. So he's charged with four counts. She says, you know, that the state is trying to prove that he has two counts of felony murder, meaning that he attempted to kidnap Abby Williams during an attempted kidnapping and he killed Libby German and attempted kidnapping. Those are two felony counts of murder and then two counts of murder. And then let's just jump to it. So closing arguments, state of Indiana versus Richard Allen is put up

on the screen. So we have a large screen. And it is a, it is. And so it's McLean doing closing statements for the prosecution. He did an excellent job. And the state of Indiana versus Richard Allen, February 13th, 2017, McLean starts, is a day that this community will never forget. The day the Abby and Libby went to the trail and they never returned. On February 13th, 2017, Becky Patty was at home with Libby. Her best friend Abby had spent the night playing games and playing with Libby's puppy.

A lot of sirens outside. Abby had spent the night playing with Libby's puppy, asked to go, and her last words to her grandmother as they convinced her to go to the trail, Grandma, we will be okay. there was a Snapchat posting. At one, there was a Snapchat posting in the car as Kelsey offered to drive them to the trail. And Kelsey dropped them off around 148. When Derek went to go pick them up, Libby's dad, he could not find them.

At 3.30, after trying so hard to get a hold of them, and he could not find the girls, he contacted Anna, Abby's mother. after five the families decided to call law enforcement. Law enforcement came and everybody started looking. They continued down the drive knocking on doors, asking anyone if they knew if they had seen some girl, two girls. And they continued down the drive and they spoke to Brad Weber. There was a quick search, nothing. Family and the fire department all came out and started looking at 7 a.m. on February,

February 14th, they continued until noon, until Pat Brown finds Abby and Libby, and he calls Steve Mullen. Then they find a tie-dye shirt and shoes in the creek. The bodies were hidden. They didn't get too close, but they observed that the girl's neck's neck had been cut. They found the bodies. They processed the scene. They documented the scene. Crime scene photos are shown now on the screen. We are seeing Abby and Libby how they are found and then they start showing close up photos of Abby and Libby and how they were found. And at this moment, people are crying throughout the gallery. Then they show a shoe and a phone covered in leaves, water, and dirt. And they find a cartridge between the two girls. Richard Allen, by the way,

I point out is watching all of these photos on the screen. He watches. And then the last video, the prosecution shares that Abby and Libby, you know, wherever, the last video on the phone, they find the abduction. It's the bridge guy video. And now we watch the bridge guy video on the screen. And Richard Allen watches. This video, McLeeland says, was taken.

at 2.13 p.m. on February 13th. I notice at this moment, too, that the jurors are taking a lot of notes. Bridge Guy forces them down the hill. You can feel the fear. You can see the fear. He forces them down the hill with a gun. And by the way, I point out this. I am next to Libby's mother, and there are tears everywhere. And Abby's mom will not even look at the screen, I note. crime scene photos are shown, she can't even look. And then they show a screenshot from that last 43 second video. And we see guys down the hill. That's when law enforcement started talking to witnesses.

They talked to Rayleigh and Bree, who at 1225, and this is where they get into the timeline, and they have the timeline up on the screen. Rayleigh and Bree at 1225 walk towards the Monon High Bridge. At 1245, they take a picture. They walk back. They talk. They take a photo at a bench, timestamped at 1.26 p.m.

She then sees after that picture has taken, a man on a trail, a creepy guy, angry. He didn't respond and that he looks to be walking with a purpose. And then we heard from Betsy Briggs. Betsy walked to the Monon Highbridge and noticed a man at the first platform around 2 p.m. And we were able to see Betsy Blair's Fitbit on the screen. They have all these proof, all this timeline, and they're putting the evidence on the screen. And then we have Sarah, Sarah who was driving near 4 p.m., who says that she saw a man that was muddy and bloody with hands in his pockets, his head down.

And of course, McLeodin says every one of these witnesses gives a little bit of, a different description, but they all said the same thing that it was bridge guy. The Hoosier Harvest Store video confirms, all confirms that Sarah, Betsy, and Kelsey were all there at the times they said. The Hoosier Harvest Video Store gets the timestamps of all of their cars. Chris Cecil, he does a full, Christopher Cecil does a full analysis of what is found on Abby and Libby's phone. And the timeline is as follows.

follows at 148 a.m. Libby's GPS location on Snapchat and the health app all shows where they are dropped off, what time and as they head to the trail. The Snapchat gets the GPS locations. The last video is at 2.13 p.m. and it maps Libby's location and movement after that video. At 2.32 p.m., the phone stops. And there's not. nothing in the health app. There's no movement. And he demonstrates now on a map on the screen with a pointer each timestamp. At 1225 p.m. Bree arrives and starts walking towards the Monon Highbridge. Oh, sorry, Brie arrives at 1225. At 1243 a.m. Bree and Rayleigh arrive at the Monon Highbridge at 1243. They turn around and they'll go towards the freedom bridge. At 126, Bree takes a photo of

the bench. And then they run into the guy. And then at 146, Betsy passes the Hoosier Harvest Store surveillance. And that is the hold on, pause. And then they run into Bridge Guy. And then they run into bridge guy. And then we go to Betsy, excuse me. Betsy passes the Hoosier Harvest store on her way to the Monon Highbridge Trail at 146. At 148, Kelsey turns around and heads back after dropping the girls off. That's at 148. At 2 p.m., Betsy reaches the Monon High Bridge, and she sees a man on the first platform that turns around. And then on her way back out, Betsy sees Abby and Libby walking towards the bridge. At 2.13, the video begins and Libby took of them being kidnapped. And then at 2.32 p.m., the phone stops moving.

At 356, Sarah is seen traveling past the Hoosier Harvest door, and that is when she claims to see a man muddy and bloody on the side of the road. Well, we know McLean says, that Bridge Guy kidnapped them, and after the kidnapping, they are dead. So who is Bridge Guy? Because Bridge Guy is guilty of felony murder. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet,

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$50 off your first month of GLP1 weight loss treatment, no hassles, no memberships, and no hidden fees. Get started today. Fast forward, McLean says to 2022. Don Dullen's lead sheet is found by Kathy Shank. And she notices that there is a man who claims that he was on the trail between 130 and 330. There is a man that was on the trail. Tony Liggett is given the tip. And this indicates bridge guy.

So they follow up on the tip with Steve Mullins. It's Richard Allen. They verify the info and they call in Dan Dolan. He had copied the info of Richard Allen and has a driver's license. And they're showing this again on the screen. all the evidence they're showing on the screen. So they show Richard Allen's driver's license that Dan Dolan's copied when he interviewed him the first time back in 2017.

Richard Allen owns a 2016 Ford Focus and is the only one registered in Carroll County in 2016 and 2017. Tony goes to CVS for Richard Allen Works and he takes photographs to compare the pictures of Richard Allen's Ford Focus to the Hoosier Harvest Store where they find a car that matches Richard Allen's and confirm the time he was there. On October 13th, 2022, um, Tony Liggott's, they call Richard Allen and they bring him in for an interview. Richard Allen confirms during that interview that he is wearing the same clothes as bridge guy during this moment in court, Richard Allen is shaking his head. When they, when McLean says,

Richard Allen confirms he is wearing the same clothes as bridge guy, he takes his head. Richard Allen says he went to the Monon Highbridge, just like Betsy saw a man on the first platform. Richard Allen says he went to the first platform. Richard Allen says he saw three girls and no one else. Richard Allen lies in 2022 about the times that he was there. Richard Allen begins to be angry during this interrogation. He refuses a search of his phone and refuses a search of the house. he states if that photo of bridge guy was taken with the girl's phone it's not me end quote we find a ton of knives in his house a basket of knives and box cutters we find a cartridge in a hope box of pitchers and a hope box of pictures we find a 40 caliber six hour we find this fourth focus a blue car heart jacket it's the bridge guy starter kit and that's in quotes he says

we found at his house in quotes the bridge guy starter kit the only the best around he had was in his hope box the same caliber and brand found in his hope box he has photographs of the monon hybrid showing that he is familiar with the area taken over the years we extracted several of richard allen's devices he had so many but one was missing one device. And the name that, and they had the serial number to this phone. And the one phone he was missing was from 2017 where he would have been using it that day. They have Google searches from April 17th of that year of him saying Delphi, Indiana

News, you, Delphi, Google searches with his email address. by Indiana News, followed by Should I Die Now? Followed by Die Now, followed by Die Now, and die. Melissa Oberg then took the bullet or the cartridge found at the scene between the girls

and said, and her findings were that it all matched Richard Allen's gun, that it was cycled through the gun found in Richard Allen's house. Melissa Oberg says that the extractor, ejector, and chamber face all matched. This was confirmed by a

coworker who happens to be president of AFNI. We have all heard about AFNI, McLean says. And she testified that she has never been wrong. He used the gun to get the girls to comply. Richard Allen became angrier as evidence. You saw how he tried as evidence came out in the interrogation. And McLean stated this, which is really interesting. And you saw McLean said how he tried to manipulate his wife, Kathy.

How he said to her, you know. that I'm not the person that did this. You know. He confirmed that he racked a gun. Oh, and he's, hold on, I don't know if that's, let me skip that. I'm not sure I have that quoted right. Richard Allen is arrested at that time, and he is transferred after his arrest to Westville correctional facility to be kept safe. He was moved there. That could have been it. That could have been all of the evidence we needed. But once he gets there, he more starts happening. On April 12th, 2023, he calls his mother. He tells his mother that he has found Jesus. And he tells Kathy. And he says that he has killed Abby and Libby. On April 3rd,

there's a phone call to Kathy. And he says that he did it. We now listen to the phone call. And if you guys are interested in those phone calls, we share the detailed of those phone calls in an earlier date. Then we listened to him and we hear Ricky say, hey, and Kathy say, yes, babe, what's going on? And he said, I wanted to apologize. I did it. I did it. I killed Abby and Libby. Kathy says, no, you didn't. He says, yes, I did. Kathy says, no, you didn't. He says, yes, I did. He says, yes, I did. And then he said something that's interesting, John, and I want you to know, he says, Yes, I did, and I don't know why. And Kathy's response to that is, no, you didn't, dear.

Anything you want to say right now? Or should I keep going? Let me, yeah, let me just jump in. That's interesting. I talked a lot. I talk a lot about on our channel, I talk a lot about how one of the last questions I ask perpetrators and offenders is, Why do you think you did this? Why do you think you committed this crime?

Even if they're in denial, by the way. But many of them are, many aren't. But I always ask that at the end of every interview I do because I want to see if they have some understanding, if they have some insight and self-knowledge about why they would have committed a crime. And I'd say 95% of the time criminals will tell me, I don't know what. They'll say exactly what Richard Allen said, meaning that they're not particularly,

they lack self-awareness, they lack self-knowledge, they laugh self-reflection, and they generally don't have insight about why they commit crimes. And that's one of the reasons they do commit crimes, by the way, is because of that lack of self-reflection and self-knowledge. It's psychologists call it mentalization. It's the capacity to step back

and think about your actions and their consequences. And many criminals, almost the vast majority of criminals, they lack disability. They act impulsively without thinking about it. And so I think this is really interesting that he said that because that's what I hear time and time again from criminals is they don't know why they committed crimes. People have this misperception, I think, that the criminals know why they're doing something. A lot of times they don't, and it's because they don't really know, they don't know themselves. They don't have that self-awareness. And so that's interesting to me because he fits that category of criminals that don't know why.

Although I do believe that he provides some clues as to why he's a self-described sex addict. Those are his terms, right? I'm pretty sure that whatever puts him on that trail over by the old Child Protective Services Bill, where he hides his car, where he conceals his license plate and parks and hides his car, whatever puts him on that kind of off the beaten path trail, probably has something to do with sex addiction. Your microphone. John's, I don't know how to say your specialty. I don't know how to, that sounds weird to say this.

John is most familiar. As far as criminals you work with, you are most familiar with sex offenders. I've done hundreds of evaluations with sex offenders for community placement and risk assessments. I've had hundreds of sex offenders in group therapy for almost two decades. So, yes, I know that population very, very well. Tina is asking, when did he say he was a sex addict? He said it on some of the prison. some of the notes, I believe it was Dr. Walla.

Dr. Walla. He talked about it with Dr. Walla. Yeah. When he was meeting with Dr. Wall on a daily basis, he disclosed that he believed he had a sex addiction. And he disclosed that he was a victim of sexual abuse as a child. Yes. That's exactly it. I'll keep going.

And we're listening to these in court. And by the way, the volume has been turned up much louder. so those in the gallery can hear it a lot louder. And for those of you that want to know where we talk about all of these confessions, too, I will share. And actually, I believe it was, I know what, I believe it was November 1st that I reported. So November 1st, my live from November 1st, I actually talk a lot about all of these confessions. I want to make another observation here.

by the way, that's really important. And that is that Richard Allen makes that pivotal confession to his wife on April 3rd. He wants his wife to hear him. He wants his wife to believe him. We've talked about Richard Allen having dependent personality disorder

based upon at least two psychologists diagnosing him, not me, other people diagnosing him with that. He more than anything wants Kathy, to hear that confession, to believe it and to validate him, and she does not. She tells him to stop, right? Yeah. The very next day, April 4th, 2023, the very next day after she rejects his confession,

he starts exhibiting bizarre and psychotic behavior. that happens to also coincide with meetings, at least two meetings with his attorneys who presented all the evidence against him to him around that same time. And so I don't, I'm not going to interpret that at the moment, but I think the timeline is very interesting in terms of when he's showing the psychotic behavior and when he's confessing, he's confessing. he's confessing without psychosis at this point. On April 3rd, nobody's noting any psychosis or any mental health issues. It's only the day after that confession that, and again, I guess as a psychologist, these dates, I'm going to look at this timeline a little bit differently in terms of mental health. The prosecution probably won't see these dates as being as critical to me,

but this issue of psychosis and confessions is really important. And so this confession on April 3rd, which they see is pivotal to this case, which it is pivotal, it's extremely important. It occurs before any notation in his medical record of psychosis. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. Prosecution continues on. They explain that.

that it's a harshman that listens to all of these. Oh, so I also note, I have to be honest, I'm listening to the sound. It's higher volume than it's ever been. And I'm listening to Richard Allen talk to his wife and to his mother. And I have to admit that,

again, I've always said this, but I do believe that he does sound like bridge guy. Does that mean someone else could sound like bridge guy? Yes, somebody else could also sound like bridge guy. But I do feel like Richard Allen. Sounds like bridge guide as well as others might too.

They never did just, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but they never did any type of voice recognition or facial recognition, right? And I presume the reason they didn't do that was because they didn't have enough clarity in the video to be able to analyze that. But given the state of technology these days, I'm a little surprised I didn't attempt that. me too me too well i'll tell you what they did do but yeah okay the defense agrees with you they brought it up um yeah agree uh kathy says they messed up your meds he says i did it i did it kathy says they are screwing with you there is something wrong they are messing up your meds and then richard asks is there a way to talk to dad and she says they are screwing with you

and she is crying and he says I did it. No, you didn't. Why? Oh, no, you didn't. Why do you say that? Kathy asks in Richard Allen says, because I did it. And then she says, you're lying and she starts crying. And then he states, I just wish they would kill me and I could apologize to the families. And then Kathy says, don't talk like that anymore. Okay. McLean then says, unprovoked, unpressure. and on his own free will, he states, Kathy, I did it. And then McLuhan continues on.

And then he said, the warden testified. And the warden said to the warden. Let me interrupt you just quickly. I want to reiterate something I said earlier about this confession and how important it is. And that is, because this is really important. You have someone with dependent personality disorder who more than anything, thing in his life. He wants to please his wife, Kathy. She's his rock. He wants her to love him, to be there for him, right? He finds stability in his wife. And so when he confesses to her

and she rejects him, somebody with dependent personality disorder, you'd almost always expect them to say, okay, okay, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, you're right. You're right, you're right, you're right, you're right, I didn't do it, right? But he doesn't do that. Instead of trying to please her and tell her what he wants her to hear or what she wants to hear from him, which would be, you're right, I agree, don't leave me. Like the underlying message with dependent personality disorder is, please don't leave me, please don't reject me, right?

That's the underlying message of that particular disorder all the time. And here you have the person who matters most to him. And she's saying, stop, stop. You're, you know, they're, they're getting to you. They're affecting you. This isn't right. And, but he keeps going. This is so important because he wants to confess so badly.

And he wants to be honest and truthful so badly that he tells the one person he loves the most and needs validation from, he tells her, no, you're wrong. I did this, I did this, I did this. That's a courageous moment for Richard Allen, and it's a brutally honest moment for Richard Allen because he's going against the grain, and he's going against the very person that he's seeking validation from.

And I think it would be hard, you know, putting inside the issue of guilt or innocence, it would be hard to discount that confession. based upon his psychological state and personality, when he says this, when he tells you he did it, and he persist and he won't take no from his wife to stop, that's compelling. I don't know how you can get past that.

So I just wanted to add that. You know, people can weigh in any way they want, but that's a moment of brutal honesty from Richard Allen, and the reason he's being honest is because his motivation, his motivation in confessing is to seek some type of emotional catharsis. This is creating a lot of guilt and shame in him. He wants to unburden himself. He wants to get it off his chest.

He wants to tell people what he did because it's weighing heavily upon him, especially with his conversion to Christianity. He's seeking some type of redemption. and that I think makes those that makes these confessions really compelling in the sense that you can try to discount them by saying he's

psychotic or mental health issues or that he's being tortured but this particular confession on August April, I'm sorry, April 3rd, 2023, before he showed any signs of psychosis is powerful and it's brutally

honest and I you know, Megan, I would say if you don't think this is honest, then give me an argument. Tell me why this is not. Tell me why this confession is not to be believed. I will keep going. And this is the next thing.

And I actually don't think you've seen this, John, and I will share it on the screen. McLean then says, his next confession comes with the warden. Oh, by the way, just let me back up quickly, too. I want to make a comment about Bridge Guy. Because there's a piece of evidence you pointed out today that I didn't know about. And that is that during that first interviewed with Richard Allen,

he confirmed that he was wearing the same clothes. Yeah, he said he was wearing like a black or blue jacket and jeans. And then he went through about three different possible shoes he was wearing Army boots. tennis shoes or yeah but think about think about that for a moment so in the first interview with richard allen he says he basically says he's wearing the exact same clothes or very the same clothes as bridge guy and he says he's on the bridge around the same time that the girls are abducted like isn't that pretty close to an admission of sorts i i don't know i mean maybe not but Yeah.

If Bridge Guy's your murderer and he said, look, you know, I'm, I'm wearing the same stuff as that guy. I mean, he had not seen the picture, obviously, but he describes wearing the same clothes. And then later, when they do a search of his home, they find the same jacket. I mean, they can't, they don't know for sure the jacket Bridge Guy's wearing, but they find a jacket that matches Bridge Guy's jacket, which essentially is what he said he was wearing. Right? So that's interesting to me that he basically says it's to me it's an admission of sorts saying I'm wearing the same clothing. I'm on that bridge. Right? Like isn't that kind of an admission? I don't know. After after this confession, McLean went on to explain that he then told the warden that he was ready to confess. and we saw the letter that Richard Allen wrote on the screen. And while we don't have that letter to show you,

we do have this. And I've put it on the screen. And John, I don't believe I've even showed you this. I've seen this. Yeah, I've seen this because I saw some of the evidence that was released publicly. Yeah.

So today our team at Fox 59 was able to view this document. And it's an exhibit of Richard Allen. Allen's handwritten confession to the murders of Abby Williams and Libby German. Our team got permission from the special judge, Marianne Vorhees, to make and use this recreation on air. I did see the real one today, and I can say that it looks very much like this one. This is a recreation. I saw it on the screen today.

And McLean brings it up. So he says, when he's ready to confess, he writes the warden. And then this letter shows up on the screen. Says, I'm ready to officially confess to killing Abby and Libby. I hope to get the opportunity to tell the families, I am sorry. And then McLean, in his clothing statement, then goes on to Dr. Walla. He goes, Dr. Walla on April 5th, 2023, Richard Allen confesses to Dr. Walla. He says, I killed Abby and Libby.

he shares with her that he did it on his own and that he made sure that they were dead because he didn't want them to suffer. He explains that he didn't know why he did it. There's that again. He didn't know why he did it, but that it was sexual. His motive was sexual and it was a selfish. He's always been a selfish and a coward.

And what he did was that he got scared. And so he took, he took their life to preserve his own. He filled guilt and wishes he could go back and change that action. I killed them all by myself. I'm not crazy. I'm only acting like that. But I want to go to that.

So again, I just want to point out that in this, in this, in this, in this confession that Dr. Walla wrote notes on, he says, I don't know why. I did it, and I underlined that again.

It was sexual. The motive was sexual, but he has always been selfish, and he is a coward, and he got scared, and that is why he took their life so he could preserve his own. But he does feel guilt, and he wishes he could go back and change his actions. Do you want me to keep going? Yeah, I mean, so this is, this is exact. This is consistent with everything I just said, that he's a self-described sex addict.

He's now telling you his motivation. It's sexual. He's telling you he fills guilt. I think, by the way, the most interesting thing you just said is he said, I'm not crazy. I'm only acting like that. He's telling you he's malingering in terms of his behavior.

In terms of his behavior. Because, yeah, we're going to have to, yeah. He's not malingering on the test he took. later, but he's malingering in terms of, I mean, he says it. I don't know why, why don't people believe what he's saying. I mean, again, I'm going. Yeah, I'll keep going. I'm not, I'm not weighing in here on guilt or innocence. The jury will do that. That's always up to the, that's always up to the triers of fact, but we're just, we're just repeating what he said. So let me keep going with all the prosecution's closing statements, because then they explained that he,

He confesses on April 7th. He confesses on some other April dates I don't get. There were so many. He confesses on, I think it was like 13th. There were some others I didn't get. Then he confesses on April 22nd, April 23rd, April 26th, April 29th. On April 29th, he says that he used a box cutter, that he stole and he left in the trash at CVS.

He explains on this April 29th confession to Dr. Walla that he was actually planning to are the girls, that word, to wrap the girls. But he got scared. He panicked. He took them across the creek and he killed them instead in a hidden area. He tells Walla that he wants to confess and tell his story. And he says that he saw his parents that morning.

They were going to go to lunch. he drank three, he bought a six-pack, he drank three beers, he bundled up, and then he laid in wait, he saw the girls, he followed the girls. He left a cartridge, oh, he took a cartridge with him, he ordered the girls down a hill, he thought that they were older than they were. He saw a van, he got scared, he crossed the creek, and crossed the creek, and, cut their necks. And he kept off the trail to not be seen. And he continued living his life because he had not been caught. And then they say that he also confessed to his mother and Kathy.

And they reiterate again. And we listen to more phone calls. And we listened to a confession on May 10th. And Richard says, I need you to know I did. this and I did it. I killed Abby and Libby. On 517 he states, I'm just worried that you guys aren't going to love me because of the fact that I did it. Mom, I wouldn't sit here and tell you I did it if I didn't do it. Those were the two quotes on the screen, but then we actually listened to a recording and we listened to him, talk to his mother on the phone. And he says to his mom, did Kathy tell you that I did it?

His mom says, we aren't going to discuss this. And then says, we love you. And Richard Allen says, do you love me regardless? And his mom says, yes. Richard Allen says, is Kathy okay? His mother says, Kathy is okay? We have been holding each other up. I just worried that you're not going to love me if I say I did it.

His mom says, Richie, you're not in a good place. I love you. And then they continue. And there's a moment where he says, um, you,

you know, Richie, you're not in a good place. I love you. And then he says at one point, it does matter when I did it. Oh, she says, you know, you're not thinking straight.

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antivirus, password manager, spam call protection, dark web monitoring, and even up to $5 million in identity theft insurance, all backed by 24-7 U.S.-based fraud support. Other companies might sell just credit monitoring, or just a VPN. ORA gives you all of it, together, at the same price competitors charge for just one service. Start your free trial today at ORA.com slash remove. Protect yourself now atora.com slash remove. His mom says, Rick, don't talk like this. I think they're messing with you. Rick says, no, mom. They're not. His mom says, I love you and I know you don't have it in you to do that. Rick says, mom, I wouldn't sit here and tell you that I did if I didn't do it. Mom, we're not going

to discuss it. His mom says, I will love you no matter what. You can count on that. There is nothing you could do that would make me stop loving you. Rick says, that's good to know. His mom says, are you meeting with the therapist once a month? Rick says, no, she comes to see me every day. Mom says, that's good to hear. Rick says, got to go. And mom says, okay, I love you. And then there are more calls on June 18th and June 21st. And on February 4th, 24. It says, he states, I am sorry for killing the girls. And that was in, after he had been transferred to Wabash. And then Harshman says, McLean continues, that he had listened to over 700 phone calls and detailed in Wallace's notes. Richard Allen, um,

says and after harshman excuse me so after harshman listened to the 700 phone calls of Richard Allen that's who listened to him and all and read all of the details in Dr. Wallace's notes he heard about the confession he saw this note in Dr. Walla where Richard Allen was scared after he saw a van and he wanted to follow up on that note because 625 turns into a private drive. And they found out, they wanted to find out who owned a van in 2017 that perhaps Richard Allen saw. And so they called Brad Weber in for an interview. Okay, 625 turns into a private drive. We found out that he owned a van in 2017. He called Brad Weber in for this interview, February 17th, 2017 interview. Brad Weber says that he left work at

202 p.m. and he got home at 2.30 p.m. on February 13th, 2017. Brad Weber testified here that he got home around 230. Brad Weber was driving a van, and the route he took was the exact time Richard Allen would have been there with two girls. This is something. Only the killer would know, a van. Harshman listened to 700 phone calls, and he listened to Richard Allen's rate, his demeanor, and his tone. And he listened to all of the mundane stuff. He watched the video on Liberty German's phone, and he states, that is Richard Allen's voice. Bridge guy is Richard Allen.

Count one, murder. Richard Allen is Bridge Guy. He killed Liberty German. He forced Abby and Libby down the hill. He slid their throats. He waited to make sure they were dead, and he left behind his calling card, the bullet, or the cartridge, excuse me.

On February 13, 2017, McLean shows the Snapchat, once again in Abby's phone. Richard Allen stole the youth and the life from Abby and Libby. Libby watches Abby and a man behind Abby, and something in Libby caused her to turn on her phone. Richard Allen's voice is in the video. This is hard data.

It is 2.13 p.m. He uses a gun with an intention to rape them. He gets them to the bottom of the hill. And there is a pause once he gets to the bottom of a hill in their movement. It's for seven minutes where the health data has no steps. So he starts, in other words, to have his way with the girls, undresses the girls. And then that's when the van scares him.

And at this moment, it forces the girls across the creek to a wooded area where he kills them. Libby is still nude and Abby partially dressed. Libby is partially alive. He cuts Abby's throat and watches her die slowly. and for five years he lives among us, but he left behind a cartridge and Libby's phone. And if that's not enough, we have his confessions over and over and over.

And he walks us through how he does it. He gives us the details only he could have. He is bridge guy and he killed Abby and Libby. counts one and two felony murder counts three and four murder they conclude and we have a break and that is the closing arguments of the prosecution want me to keep going with the defense or is there anything you want to say first well i want to reiterate that that the same thing he did with his wife he did with his mother in terms of his confession his mother says, we aren't going to discuss this. So this is his confession from May 17, 2023.

One of the common themes in his confessions is he wants to know if they'll still love him, which again, that's completely consistent with dependent personality disorder, which was his diagnosis, one of his diagnoses, that more than anything, he wants to know that he'll still be loved. He did it, but still love, right? That's dependent personality disorder. But in spite of the fact that his wife and his wife and his wife, mother are telling him, no, no, no, don't talk. And I've seen some of the chats saying,

why are they doing that? It's a great question. The reason they're shutting him down is because they're in denial. They don't think, in the case of his mother, his mother doesn't think that her son is capable of that. And his wife doesn't see her husband as a murderer. And so they're completely in denial. They don't want to deal with the reality that, one, that somebody's son might be a murderer, and two, that your spouse might be a murderer. So they're trying to protect him. One of the interesting elements of personality disorder is precisely that, that typically in relationships where someone is dependent or has dependent personality disorder,

one of the parties, in this case, the spouse and or mother or both feel like they need to protect their child or their spouse. because the independent personality disorder, that person pulls for that, that person pulls to be taking, pulls for this sense of being taken care of. They're dependent, right? They need that sense of dependency.

So if someone, if you have a child that's overly needy and dependent, typically, you know, a parent may overcompensate and overprotect them. And that's what's going on here. The reason why the wife, and mother are acting overly protective and trying to shut them down is because, number one, they can't believe it.

But it's also a function of their relationship. It's a function of an overly dependent relationship. So systemically in their relationships, they're used to this playing this role of the protector, the overprotector, right? That he's the one in a dependent relationship. He's the one they need to take care of. And that's so they're stepping back. to that role of protector and overprotector.

And they're trying to get him to shut down because that's how they treat him. That's what you do. That's typically what you do is someone who would be diagnosed with dependent personality disorder. Independent personality disorder. The dynamic is someone saying, love me, love me, care for me, take care of me. And the other party will say, okay, I'm going to love you. I'm going to take care of you. I'm going to coddle you.

I'm going to, I'm going to, right, I'm going to treat. you with kid gloves. And so that is the dynamic. Now, a lot of people are probably saying, well, okay, but he wants to confess. Why don't they just let him confess? Why doesn't he confess? And his wife or mother say, look, I understand now you did this. I want you to go make a full confession and let's take a plea deal. Let's take a plea deal so you're not put to death or whatever, whatever the outcome is, they don't do that because they're in denial and because they're playing into his dependency, which is his diagnosis. They're playing into his personality disorder.

They've done that his whole life. And as a matter of fact, I'd go further and say that my guess is that his mother, obviously his mother plays a role in raising a child with dependent personality disorder. And one of the elements of that is being overly protective with your child. child. So that's the dynamic they've had their whole life. You're just seeing it, you're putting it under a microscope here because you have a child who wants to confess. I mean, he's an adult now, but a child who wants to confess and a mother who won't let him because her dynamic and everything she knows about raising her child is, my child needs protection because he generally can't take

care of himself. He's super needy. He's super depressed. He's super anxious. And I'm going to be his protector. That's what's playing out there. In a normal relationship where somebody's not as dependent, what you would get is a spouse saying, that's a horrible thing you did. I can't believe you committed murder. Let's go tell people so that you can, let's confess to the warden or whoever confess on video, which people still wouldn't believe, by the way, but let go confess to the warden and plead guilty and let's take a deal because you did this crime. In addition to the fact that this guy, his motivation to confess is valid. He wants to confess because he wants a catharsis. He wants to unburden himself. He wants to get, he wants to, you know,

attain some level of peace. His motivation is not to deceive someone. I mean, in a false confession, the motivation essentially is the reason why someone would give a false confession under coercion is they want to stop the pain. They want to stop what they're experiencing in that moment. He does not want to do that. The motivations behind most false confessions are not this. They're not catharsis. And also the other thing that's really hard to ignore here, the volume of the sheer volume of confession. is overwhelming.

60 plus confessions. Like, you can convict someone with one confession. You can convict someone with one valid, honest confession that's not coerced. Juries do that all the time. But here you have 60 plus confessions or people like, I don't know. Yeah. He's not, you know, he's not telling the truth. He's being coerced.

He's tortured. Like 60 confessions, you only need one confession to do the trick. What's going on here? When somebody tells you the truth, when somebody confesses to something repeatedly, why don't you believe him? Right?

That's the, why don't you believe him? Why don't you take him at his word? Well, the defense will tell us why. Maybe we should jump to their statement. The defense will tell us. why we shouldn't so um let me tell you a little bit about what happened on the break before we jumped to um before we jump to uh the defense i thought the defense did an excellent job i thought the prosecution did an excellent job and the defense did an excellent job and i said as much on my

lunch life but there was a break at this moment before the defense. And I admitted at the lunch live where I am, there are a lot of varying opinions in the courtroom. And I deeply suspect that the jury might be torn right now. Nobody knows, right? We can only speculate. I've been wrong about juries before, most juries, actually. So don't take my word for that. But I suspect they're torn right now. At this moment, it's a hung jury, but they're going to deliberate tomorrow. And so I'm just one person in the courtroom, but I admitted as much of my YouTube live that, um, the state's case and the evidence that I have seen now that I have listened to it all and seen

it all. Like I am, I feel like Richard Allen, um, is guilty. That's my after as someone who sat in the courtroom every day, listening to all the evidence, that's where I am. And again, I am just one person in there. Um, so I felt really good after, I, I, I felt like the prosecution really brought it home and it made sense to me. And I saw family members and I shared with them that I thought the prosecution did a great job. And it was very clear to me. And I just want to share that because now we're going to jump to the defense. And so again, this is still before my lunch life.

It was done by Rosie. There are excellent attorneys on both sides of this. McLean's incredible. Rosie's an excellent attorney as well. Rosie states, jurors, you have been here for 17 days of testimony, evidence, witnesses, two to 300 pieces of evidence, exhibits, and videos. Our time to try to summarize theories of this case and all while the state trusts that all they've shared is more important than what we're going to share today.

the state has provided a broken timeline, bumbled ballistics, and fumbled confessions. Three men, by the way, at the end of the jury, are taking frantic notes, and jurors took notes throughout the defenses, I want to say, entire closing statements. And now I keep seeing now four jurors are taking notes. I'm going to continue with my flow of closing arguments from the defense,

but just throughout the entire thing, I say four jurors are taking notes. These two men are specifically taking a lot of notes. There were a lot of jurors taking notes, and about three jurors in particular that I saw took the most notes from the defense. The defense continues, Rosie. The most important thing is what the state didn't tell you

and what we had to tell you time and time again. Their refusal to have a height analysis done on the video, why not? Why not spend the money to get a height analysis done? The Ford Focus being a 2016, why didn't I not tell you all the other cars that it could have possibly looked like all the other years, the hatchbacks, why didn't they tell you?

And then what about the man who saw something unusual when he was in the area? We had to tell you this. The Betsy Blair story, we told you through cross-exam. We had to be the ones that told you this, that Betsy Blair saw someone that was youthful and boyish and not short, that the vehicle she saw when she left was entirely inconsistent with Richard Allen's vehicle. Sarah Carbaugh, she didn't tell you her whole story in cross-exam.

First, she said that the man was muddy and bloody, and then she said it was a tan jacket, and then she saw a bridge guy and said, yes, that's him. When you hear testimony or receive evidence so preposterous, you should discount it. It's what they didn't tell you. David McCain, we had to call him to the witness stand. He was there that day. He is a believable man who is taking photographs that day. He has a camera and he is on the bridge between 2 and 3 p.m.

And he spent time on the bridge. Shelby and Cheyenne two more witnesses. They were there 2.30 to 330. Shelby and Duncan around 250. And he checks his notes to make sure the time. The state did not offer these witnesses. Rick's version of his route, Richard Allen's version. They tried to put a route.

They tried to put Rick. on a route that best fits their narrative. But that's not what Rick said. I suggest to you, when you go back to deliberate pieces of evidence that I suggest are, that you digest are the interrogations. I believe that these two pieces of evidence are so important.

How did Rick Allen handle this situation during the interrogations being interrogated for murdering two little, girls. Brad Weber's lab results from his gun, they cannot be excluded. Brad Weber's yard, you see significance of sticks. We, we offered that, not the state. Brad's statement to police, he said that he drove home right after work, but he actually interviewed in 2017 with Agent Poole that he did not go home, that he went, and you heard that from us. There were phone calls that were brought up. You might find some of them suspicious if you really look into them. The FBI parting

ways in the midst of the investigation. Doug Carter acknowledges issues and a separation. The sticks that were not recovered at the crime scene, and they had to go back and collect them two months later. They had to collect those items. And then videos from Westville. For 13 months, Richard Allen sat in an isolated cell. All they wanted to talk about is nothing of substance, although he had been shackled to take a shower or to see a doctor. Why wouldn't they want to see the truth? You, jury, need the truth. Then these infamous photos, and he shows photos of the bullet or the cartridge. This magic bullet, as the defense called it, was collected

and clearly the catalyst for Richard Allen's arrest. He was trying to leverage Mr. Allen in that Holman interview, in that interrogation video with Holman, he was trying to leverage this bullet with Mr. Allen because without that cartridge, he's not even there. Richard Allen isn't even there in that interrogation room. And at the end of that day, basically what they got was, you should just believe Melissa Oberg,

and they did not offer up the photos. Jury, use your common sense. And then there's the Selbright data. What they didn't tell you was that at 5.45 p.m., someone plugged in an accessory. At 1032, another audio output was, recorded in the same situation. At 4.43am, no explanation has been offered up as to why text messages came into Libby's

phone. Also, the chapter of desperation that has unfolded over the last two years, they got that magic bullet and they arrested Richard Allen and that van that one unique fact that they mined out of one therapy note and what did they and what did they find running a search on Brad Weber he was contacted though and Mr. Weber himself sent some text messages to prove his case but the defense has never seen those texts. We have never seen that interview that he had with Agent Poole. He testified that he typically drives the Subaru to work

and doesn't go home after work. In 2016, it took them, from 2017, it has taken them seven years to figure this out. The DNA, we saw that hair strands, items that were collected seven years ago. They are still trying to figure it out. admissions of internet searches October 2022 searches by Mr. Allen

There is no proof of fact that they were done by Richard Allen It could be someone else using his email address The searches for a movie Let's convict half of Carroll County We're desperate The state having realized that the headphones were plugged in Christopher Cecil

To offer up some fast food the Google searches? Desperate, absolutely desperate. And then Dr. Corr, he's who did the autopsy, between time of deposition and the time he testified, to-da, hey, it might be a box cutter. He had three meetings with the prosecutors, but offered no supplemental report, nothing. This is desperation at its finest.

And now the timelines. 355 to 357, Sarah Carbaugh. We have an image of her phone, of her car, driving. And let me suggest that it is not unreasonable to go back in that room, that jury room, and say, I don't think Sarah saw anything. The phone record on February 14th under Abby's body, none of these things are consistent with what we saw in the cell phone data. at best is nothing consistent with Sarah, excuse me.

The phone received the phone that they received on 214 under Abby's body. None of these things are consistent with what Sarah said. At best or at worst, Sarah's memory was created and offered an offer to her after they showed her a photo. This is what happens with lineups. and they ask someone to identify witnesses, it's suggestibility. And why are Shelby Hicks and Mr. McCain and Shelby and Cheyenne and Daniel Pearson

not part of the timeline? Dave McCain says he sat on that bridge and he heard nor saw nothing. There was an older man at the end taking notes. They heard nor saw nothing. Dr. Corr says the girls could have died possibly later, according to his autopsy. There were no vocal cords cut.

They could scream, but nobody heard anything. To anyone else, to anyone else, the state doesn't want to talk about it. February 13th, hold on. February 13th, they want you to accept this theory as accurate, that they were rushed downhill through woods, undressed, wounds afflicted, while the other girl was also controlled, and then somehow he kills the other girl, and sticks were placed in an unusual form on the bodies,

and then the body moved. This suggests multiple actors. They say this was done by a five-foot, five-inch man without a sound or trace. Then the girls are found. Richard Allen called law enforcement and says he'd be happy to help. He'd be happy to help, and he speaks to Dan Dullen. and Dan Dullen doesn't think anything unusual back in 2017.

But all of a sudden, in October 13th, 2022, he's taken to the station. And he stood there and he told them he didn't do it and that he cooperated. And he cooperated with them. And then on October 26th, Richard Allen goes in again, cooperates again in the face of those lies. And his voice, being the one on video, he asserts his innocence over and over. the state wants you to believe that because the tone of his voice changed a bit, he's guilty. That's insulting. I would suggest that anyone in any interrogation would finally start to get frustrated.

And then he uses, and then police use his wife, detectives use his wife as leverage. They bring Kathy in and Richard Allen defends her. The Magic Bullet, Let's Talk Magic Bullet, Collected, under leaves, poorly photographed, a cartridge shows up at a lab, the gun shows up to be tested. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers, spammers, even stalkers. It's why you get endless robocalls

and why ads seem to follow you everywhere. That's where ORA comes in. Ora actively removes your data from broker's sites and keeps it off. They also instantly alert you if your information shows up in a breach or on the dark web. But ORA goes beyond data protection. With one app, you get a VPN, antivirus, password manager, spam call protection, dark web monitoring, and even up to $5 million in identity theft insurance, all backed by 24-7 U.S.-based fraud support. Other companies might sell just credit monitoring, or just a VPN. Ora gives you all of it, together, at the same price competitors charge for just

one service. Start your free trial today atora.com slash remove. Protect yourself now at ora.org.com slash remove. It suggests confirmation bias because they've narrowed it down to two different guns placed in this firearm marks on test firearms means it's not sufficient to compare. It's apples to oranges. Again, sorry, they placed this firearm marks with test firearms that they fired. It is not sufficient to compare its apples to oranges. And then

does the fire not and then she compares it to a firing around she fired. This is improperly comparing apples to oranges. It can be done, but it requires more work and research and you need to explain your work.

I put at this moment, the jury is taking a lot of notes during this moment. She can pay, see the ejector the extractor and the barrel she compared them but only with the ejector nothing with the extractor and then if anything should upset you about this hold on and then sorry let me follow my notes and then if there's anything more that should upset you about this let's talk about these two photographs and he places photographs on a screen. Where in the hell do these photos match?

The subclass, the characteristics, the sequence, the undertone. And he's referring to the microscopic photos of the bullet. This is a subjective game. You might ask, well, why didn't the defense have the cartridge tested? Maybe it was because the work was so poor. False confessions. Let's talk about those. this is unprecedented.

The warden acknowledged that in the last 25 years he'd never had a pretrial detainee in the Westville Correctional Unit. Dr. Walla also acknowledged the same. Dr. Martin, I think, told us the same. By the way, he did it in his testimony. I noted that. Mr. Allen was fragile. He has major depressive disorder.

Dr. Westcott said, and I missed what Dr. Westcott said. And then Rosie says, they say that he was treated just like the rest. But these are the most heinous individuals in the state. And he was treated just like them. And he was immediately placed on S watch, self-harm watch. Research shows that no human can handle the circumstances he did,

eating off floors, mice droppings, ants, being called a child killer and a baby killer. by other inmates through the wall. Cinderblock walls, concrete floor, outdoor wreck is a cage with a screen on top. And when he got into therapy, in order to transport him to therapy, they shackled him in arms with a belly band and a lead, I call it a leash,

and they walked him to a cell to talk to a therapist. This is solitary confinement. Oh, solitary confinement is damaging to anyone when you're held. The evidence is firm. You can only handle so much. 30 days turned to 60 days. 60 days turned to 90 days, 90 days to 120 days. I can keep doing the math, but he was there for 13 months.

How much can one human endure? You saw the video of him. Harshman said, he's right where he belongs. Wallace said he was psychotic in March, May, and June. He was getting stuck with meds. Antisicot. He was getting stuck with meds, antipsychotics, which means that you're psychotic. Wallace says she wasn't even sure.

She said, I don't know. Dr. Martin, Dr. Martin said, Dr. Martin explained the time and place where he could watch that video. And he thinks, pause really quickly. I can't read my handwriting. He could watch the video. and he thinks he something time and place. I'm going to have to skip that. What was the medical standard in which these people here were working to keep him alive?

That was their medical standard. Keep Richard Allen alive. You should feel insulted. Dr. Grasian, the Harvard psychiatrist that testified, he says false memories start out as false beliefs. look at the phone call the Richard Allen made to his mom. Rick says, I did it. And then they continue.

And then he says, no, I did it. I killed Abby and Libby. And then later down, what does he say? Because maybe I did it. I think I did it. I'm unsure. He is unsure if he called his dad. He thinks, I think I did it.

I wish I could say I did it. I don't know. these are false beliefs according to Dr. Grossein. How do you interpret information? That phone, that cell phone, let's talk cell phone. How do you interpret information? Cell phones have no personality. Cell phones don't have feelings or emotions.

It just generates raw data. One simple conclusion to the 5 and 10 time frame where the car, at 5 and at 10, where the car jack or the phone jack, someone puts on in there. And he says, quote, someone was using that phone, end quote. The elevation change. You have a map, 65 feet from the bridge to the water. Here's the other side of the map where Weber, Weber drove allegedly halfway down, 30 feet maybe. I don't know. But I don't have to tell you that that private road leads to Brad Weber's home. And at Brad Weber's home, there are sticks. and Brad Weber, he has a gun.

The state had seven years to figure out and there's no explanation because the phone is essentially right. You need facts and the state wants you to believe there was a box cutter. It's a common tool. They would want you to see

those knives in the house and the box cutter but no trace evidence on them. Dr. Westcott had an interesting observation, Dr. Westcott was who we talked about the other day, you and I. She noted that the medical notes of her version or summary flowed like a story, but for four months he was in a psychotic state. No man could talk like that, but they showed up on a paper by Dr. Walla. The word bizarre comes to mind, along with Dr. Walla's infatuation with this case.

She visited the Monon Highbridge. he was allegedly lying in wait. Does he seem like he's lying in wait in that video? Can you hear that guy or the gun? Or can you see it? They want you to believe he was an alcoholic because he had a few beers that day, but there's no reference to him being an alcoholic.

The search for the girl is being called into question. Lay people just trying to help walking around all over. They found nothing in, they found nothing on February 13th. With no leaves on the trees, they did not find Abby and Libby's bodies that evening. They say he was lying in wait. The witnesses say that Richard Allen was lying in wait, walking with purpose, implying he knew these girls. But there's no evidence of this man and these girls, nothing. The clothing, they collected a blue Carhart jacket.

There's a revelation for. you shocking, a blue Carhart jacket in Carroll County. The prosecution claims he found the Lord, and that's why he came clean. Well, in a tiny cell with only a Bible, can you blame him? He's not the only man who found God in prison. Richard Harshman identified the voice of Richard Allen, but years and years of tips, hundreds of tips, with people thinking that they knew the voice, but now Richard Harshman is a mind reader. your common sense. Speaking of common sense,

no witness has said that Richard Allen is bridge guy. No electronic, no fingerprints, no shoe prints, and no spec of DNA connects Richard Allen to that scene. Not a trace speck of DNA connects Richard Allen to the crime scene. If he

was muddy and bloody, even years later, if he was muddy and bloody in this world, they would find something in his car in 2022. The rules permit me to speak only once. This has been a journey for me, but it has not been as long as a journey for Abby's families or for the Allens or for Libby's family,

for Abby's family, or for the Allens. And at the end of the day, the state's timeline has crumbled. The magic bullet is nothing more than a tragic bullet, putting Richard Allen in that tragic place. that phone under that young woman's body for hours and hours does not make any sense. Phones don't have personalities. And then he brings up a photo, and it's a photo of a man, a sketch of a man being tortured. Consider this.

This here is called Iraq. It's a tool used in medieval times to punish people, to interrogate people. But as a society, we have evolved now more subtle forms like solitary confinement, a slower, more painful form of interrogation. Someone should have spoken up. Why was someone not going to say something? This is wrong. Where's the moral compass? You, jury, are the moral compass.

Every so often, we are given another course of action. the time is now. That's the power of the state, the power of the government, and now is not the time to step back to the Middle Ages. Now is the time to step forward into the rain and to say this is not how we function. We're asking you to set Richard Allen free

and free from these restraints. And he points to the picture. Thank you. And then it was lunch. Okay. I thought they did. I thought they did an excellent job, the defense. And so I guess my point being, I'll just share this and you can decide what you want to say.

I shared with you what I said to somebody in the middle of the two. So I, I, so I was in there. There's a break that we stay in the courtroom for. I talked to a family member. I say the prosecution was excellent. And that's, wow. Then we have the defense. And then I run outside and that's when I do my lunch live without talking to anyone.

Now you guys can know where I was during my lunch live. Then I come back in. I'm unsure if I'm going to get back into the courtroom. I do get back into the courtroom. I'm sitting there and a family member of one of the girls comes up to me again. And she says, and now what do you think? and I I said

the defense did a really excellent job and the conversation that we had she implied that you know perhaps the jury though

will look at logic and but I don't know there you go it was and I shared on my lunch live honestly Johnny shared on my lunch live that I felt a little bit bipolar

you know to let's do things back to back. Well, first of all, the defense's job is to create doubt, right? The reason we have defense attorneys in this country is it's an adversarial system. Their job is to create doubt to get their client acquitted. And defense attorneys exist to force the state to make their case. So they're doing their job. did they present sufficient rebuttals to create reasonable doubt?

I don't know. I guess the jury will tell us that when they come back with a verdict. I mean, the most interesting element of their case was the ending to me. Because clearly they're tapping into something very emotional by putting up a photo of a middle-aged torture rack. A, number one, that's completely irrelevant to anything to do with this crime. I guess the presumption is that Richard Allen has been tortured in prison. So as far as I know, he wasn't put on a rack. Right.

And stretched. And I mean, if you want to know how people were tortured in the middle of the ages, go look it up. They didn't have tablets. They weren't able to talk to their families. I mean, it's, it's a lot of people. feel he was tortured, you know, I guess it depends on your definition of tortured. I would say that he felt like he was tortured. Yeah, I believe that. I think he probably did feel tortured. And yeah, yes, to him it was torture. But I think to, you know, so I talked about this a little

on Patreon that, you know, one of the, one of the issues here, has to do with the state. And, you know, you just said that the defense ended with that. This perception that Richard Allen is this innocent victim and he's been persecuted by the state for no reason whatsoever, that there's not sufficient, there's no evidence. Why did they even charge him? Right. So I think there's this fear here that the legal system, the judicial system is out to get people,

innocent people like Richard Allen, with no evidence, what's. whatsoever and presumably that if you get Richard Allen, we could, you know, tomorrow we're going to get you. We're going to pull you over for a broken tail light and we're going to haul you in and we're going to call you in and we're going to call you bridge guy and we're going to arrest you and we're going to charge you with a crime you didn't commit. Right. I think you've got this underlying paranoia here about this persecution complex about the average person in America is under siege. and should worry about being charged with crimes they didn't commit. And Richard Allen is the poster child for this particular view. Right.

And so that's what the defense is playing up here. That's what they're playing on. When you present a middle medieval torture chamber with some guy being tortured on a rack, like that is not authentic. That is not relevant to this case, right? They're purely playing on people's emotions. Correct. And they're playing on the emotions of persecution of innocent people.

It did happen. You know, in the Middle Ages, people that had mental health problems, schizophrenia, let's take schizophrenia. So in the middle ages, if you had schizophrenia and you were hearing voices, people thought you were possessed, they would throw you in dungeons, they would, you know, drain your blood. torture you, try to, try to exercise the demons, right? I mean, that's what they're trying to say. That's what they're trying to say that there's no due process.

There's no evidence that Richard Allen was tortured. He was arrested unfairly. You know, to call the magic bullet a tragic bullet. I mean, yeah, I agree. It is tragic because it's on a crime scene where two innocent girls were brutally murdered. Yeah. Is it magic?

Nope. It was in Richard Allen's gun. It's not a magic bullet. I mean, they're doing what a defense does. The reason there's no DNA on the crime scene is because, number one, it was outdoors. It's a lot harder to get DNA out of a crime scene that's in an area that's in a wooded area where there's rain and it's wet and clothes were put in the creek, right? And then why isn't their blood in his car?

Because it's five years later. I mean, but I don't know. I mean, they're doing what a defense does. They're doing their job. And they're forcing the state to make its case. And which is how the system works and how it should work. Do I have an opinion about, you know, Richard Allen's guilt or innocence? I mean, probably, but I'm not going to express it here.

We'll talk about it later. The question I come back to here is, and I always talk about this a lot, is Wayne evidence. You can cherry pick evidence all day long, and you can make an argument based on cherry picking evidence. You can take one piece of evidence, and I guess we all do this, right? But some evidence counts more than other evidence. some evidence is stronger and more compelling than other evidence. And whatever evidence you pick, you know, if you argue that he's tortured, you got to show me. Because that's not what the guard said.

He wasn't put on a rack and stretched and his blood wasn't drained from him. Right? So I guess if you argue psychological torture, you could make that point. But I will say this, though. You know, there's research. showing the juries are swayed, they're persuaded by the most coherent theory of the case that matches the evidence. So, and I think you have, the defense doesn't really have a theory of the case. The defense's theory of the case is that the state overstepped its bounds and arrested the

wrong person and then tortured him and he confessed because he was tortured, right? That's essentially the defense's theory. Yeah, it is. There are a lot of questions about that. Pat Brooks, thanks you so much. I just want to say thank you. We'll do a lot of super chats after, but thank you so much. And I noticed somebody wrote in chat, by the way, I wrote this down because it's consistent that we're talking about. Somebody wrote, Richard Allen's constitutional rights were trampled on, and that's all that matters. This was written before you read the stuff about the torture rack and the state. So somebody in chat wrote that. That's an interesting perspective, right? Because in my mind, that's not all that matters. What, I mean, he's getting to trial. So his constitutional

rights are being exercised. He has an excellent defense team. So his constitutional rights are being upheld. But, you know, what matters is justice for what matters is, are the victims going to have a voice? Are the victims going to get justice? Is this really, is this truly, like a lot of people that agree with the defense, they call this a cold case. Is this a cold case? I mean, people think it is. People think that Richard, there's nothing whatsoever,

no evidence whatsoever that you could put out there that would show that Richard Allen is guilty. Everything that you can say about Richard Allen, including 60 plus confessions, that were motivated because he wanted to, he wanted a catharsis and he wanted to unburden himself of his overwhelming guilt. None of that matters. None of that matters. In comparison to his constitutional rights, I guess, whatever that means.

I mean, you lose constitution rights when you murder people too, by the way. So the reason why they're holding him in a smaller cell, they call it solitary confinement. I'm not sure if that's accurate. accurate, but so because solitary confinement, I mean, it differs by prison and it differs on the facility you're in. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions pulling details about you from public records and the internet,

and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers, spammers, even stalkers. It's why you get endless robocalls and why ads seem to follow you everywhere. That's where ORA comes in. ORA actively removes your data from broker sites and keeps it off. They also instantly alert you if your information shows up in a breach or on the dark web. But ORA goes beyond data protection. With one app, you get a VPN, antivirus, password manager, spam call protection, dark web monitoring,

and even up to $5 million in identity theft insurance, all backed by 24-7 U.S.-based fraud support. Other companies might sell just credit monitoring, just a VPN. ORA gives you all of it, together, at the same price competitors charge for just one service. Start your free trial today atora.com slash remove. Protect yourself now atora.com slash remove. Solitary confinement is pretty bad, but you don't get to talk to people in solitary confinement. Typically, solitary confinement is because you're either so violent or you've acted in such a way

that you lose privileges in the general population. That's when you're put in solitary confinement. They're put in solitary confinement to protect the prisoner and to protect the general population. And when you're put in solitary confinement, it's often a type of punishment. It can be. Like in the cases I deal with,

it's often punishment. So you don't punish someone by giving them a tablet, giving them a window, letting them talk to their therapist and see their therapist every day, which means he has social interaction. One of the reasons solidity confinement is, so damaging to human beings, and it is damaging, it's extremely damaging, is because of the isolation and the lack of human contact. But Richard Allen didn't have that. Richard Allen had

contact with other people. He was free to leave his cell at will. That's not solitary confinement. And typical solitary confinement, you can't leave your cell. Well, I don't know if it was at will, but when someone came to offer him to leave. But right. Right, he wasn't, yeah, okay. He couldn't. He couldn't just leave. The door was locked.

He was, it was, right. But if somebody offered it to him. Right, what I mean is that, right, that you, that a typical inmate in solitary confinement can't say, hey, can I go talk to this person or can I, right, there's. So does solitary confinement, under the conditions in which Richard Allen was placed, does that lead to torture and psychosis?

And like all the, right? And I mean, what, it's a, it is complicated because typically a normal inmate will be put in jail. They'll be put in, and there's a difference between jail and prison, by the way. Prisons are more difficult and harsh. than jails, but typically, I've seen some jails that are pretty bad, but it really, it really depends. You know, typically someone would put in jail until there's a trial or until the cases

was adjudicated, and then if they're, if they're found guilty, they'll go to prison afterwards. And so this is unusual in that sense that he was, he had more restrictions placed on him for sure. but I'm not sure. Just that alone doesn't mean he's tortured, right? I mean, I think people have this, you have to know more details about this scenario to make judgments, right? Because I think people have this assumption

that when they hear solitary confinement, they just assume that he's being put on this torture rack that looks like something from middle ages, and that's not what this is. Yeah. He had TV privileges. He chose not to use those, but he was offered TV. Like, I don't know a single inmate that's ever put in solitary confinement in prison.

Inmates call it the hole, by the way. I'm going to the hole. I'm going to spend time in the hole. The hole is dreaded by every inmate, almost every inmate. But they're not getting television privileges in solitary confinement. I meant none of them. I don't know a single image it's ever been put in the hole

that has had television privileges. So I think this is complicated. You know, I think people are creating a scenario, you know, they're... Well, we have, we do have a lot of questions about that. Why don't we, why don't we do this? Let's move forward to after lunch where we hear the prosecution's rebuttal.

It was actually kind of, it was short. It was a lot shorter than both these closing arguments and get to where we are now, which is that the jury is in their hotel rooms. So a lunch, I got into the room, the courtroom. I feel very, again, privileged and grateful to have been in there. And Lieutenant Holman is in there, by the way, I notice. A lot of the law enforcement are in there, which they often are during closing arguments. And Holman sits by Kelsey German, and he actually puts his arm around her for a time. And at this moment, yeah, I talked to some family members of the victims.

And then, of course, the prosecution gets the last word. They get the last rebuttal. And it is McLeeland again. And this is what he shares. He says, I am not here to tell you how I feel. I am here to present the evidence. The defense went through a lot of the evidence will show. dot, dot, dot, but they haven't shown that.

I presented evidence only the killer would know. The state has not done that, or the state has done that. The state presented witnesses who saw a bridge guy on the trail there. It affirms what Richard Allen tells us that he is there. He's on the bridge. Libby's phone tells you it happened at 2.13 p.m. The other people weren't there at that time. The phone stopped moving at 2.32 p.m.

It was under the body of Abby Williams. We don't know if they screamed before then, but we do know that Liberty was crying because there is a blood outline of a tear. She was crying and she was scared. He left a bullet. The cartridge goes from a crime scene to the lab. And then Melissa Oberg testified that the bullet cycled through Richard Allen's gun.

She told you why she thought that or based her opinion on that. And her results were verified. The defense's gun expert, he didn't write a report. He didn't find any findings. It's not a magic bullet unless a magic bullet helps solve a murder. I'll take it. The confessions? The defense repeatedly says,

Words matter. He said a lot of words to a lot of different people. He told Dr. Walla that his attempt was to R them. RAP. He thought that the girls were older. Words matter. He trusted Dr. Walla. He told his mom that he trusted Dr. Walla. He called his wife with Dr. Walla in the room there, and he confessed. He trusted Dr. Walla. Words matter. Evidence shows that Richard Allen is bridge guy. There was something I didn't get.

I'm sorry. And then he states, there are two victims in this case, Abby and Libby. They are the victims of Richard Allen. They are more than victims, though. They are heroes. They are who took video.

They are who hid the phone. They are who camouflage the bullet. Those acts by Libby and Abby led to the arrest of Richard Allen. Libby told her grandma that one day, I am going to grow up and I am going to help solve crimes. And that is exactly what she did. And she brought Abby along with her. Thank you. And we did learn that in opening statements that.

that Libby was interested in true crime and that she did want to work in helping to solve crimes. That was what she hoped to do one day. So that was a poignant moment for me. So after that, it was jury instructions and Judge Gull explaining the schedule, which I explained all at the beginning of this show. So that was the entire day. I concluded the day. So now we can just talk.

So I kind of, you know, I said what I think I need to say. If you want to, if you want to get into some questions or chat, I don't know. I mean, I think that the prosecution's final statement was succinct but powerful. It did take a tremendous amount of courage for them to take video. And by the way, Richard Allen and his. statement in his interview, he said something to that effect. He essentially said, oh, by the way, if there is a phone with video on it, it's not me. I mean, how would he know that?

Who else would know that? So that's, well, he knew that because the bridge guy video was out. Let me clarify that. Okay. That was the second. Yeah, let me clarify. The bridge guy video was out. And Richard Allen allegedly called law enforcement after the bridge guy video surface and law enforcement was asking for tips.

And then during the interrogation, and I saw the interrogation videos, they asked Richard Allen if he is bridge guy. And his answer is Gray Hughes investigates states is, if the girls took the picture, then that isn't me because I don't know them. And so Gray Hughes actually does want you to know what you think of that. But just for your knowledge, the image of Bridge Guy had surfaced. Okay. And so they asked him, are you Bridge Guy? And his response was, well, if the girls took the photo, then it's not me because I don't know them. And so it is, it is a curious thing to say, you know, he could say, no, I'm not.

I mean, I don't know. It was compelling. Like, why did he just say? well, if the girls took it, it's not me. Why don't just say it's not you? I know. Right, exactly. Like a normal response,

an expected response would be, nope. Right? So I think, you know, I mean, not to be critical, but I think the prosecution ended simply, but powerfully.

You know, they might have, maybe there were a couple of things they could have addressed in a little more detail, or, you know, rebutted in detail, but seems like at that point they just wanted to get it to the jury. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Can I ask you a few questions? And I know that we'll share even more in detail on Patreon tonight. You have things to say. I have things to say this has been a very difficult trial. Well, but I... Go ahead. Yeah, I keep coming back.

So let's summarize what this case is. Like putting aside all the persecution stuff and the state going after the little guy, all that. Like this case essentially hinges on, I mean, there's more because as Gray Hughes would say, like we can develop a picture from start to finish of presumably what happened. And the prosecution did that, right? that he hides his car. He takes a trail that's not typical. Why doesn't he park in them?

There's a lot of things. We could present a narrative that's pretty compelling, I think, of Richard Allen or somebody like Richard Allen that ends up committing these murders. But in the end, if you boil this down to its essential components, this is a confession case with a bullet dropped in the middle of a crime scene. So you don't have DNA, but you have a bullet, which is the equivalent in this case of DNA. So that's what it comes down to. You've got 60 plus confessions and a magic bullet, magic being that, you know, that I don't know, obviously the defense means that in a derogatory fashion.

But as the prosecution points out magic in the sense that without that bullet, you'd have a weaker case. You'd just have a confession case. but in the end this comes down to the confessions and the bullet that's that's essentially what you have so you know the question is did the defense present a strong enough argument to discredit those confessions and to discredit the bullet right that's that's what they're trying to do right exactly of course yeah they are trying to yes and i as i just said earlier like if you you have to when you when you when you assess a false confession or any confession you have to assess the motivations what is the motive behind the confession is it as I said

earlier if somebody's being tortured or coerced or you know you've got the bad cop scenario where you know the bad cops spitting in your face and won't let you go to the bathroom right we've seen that in every true crime show we've seen that in a lot of true crime shows right that that's kind of the quintessential interrogation technique that, that, you know, has become famous or infamous in true crime shows. And those confessions, you know, the motivation there is to alleviate the pressure. It's to get rid of the anxiety, right? It's to eliminate that pain that the person confessing is experiencing.

And it's important to note that in those types of scenarios, where there might be something closer to torture in those types of scenarios, typically within 24 to 48 hours after a false confession, the confessor then retracts that confession when there's not as much pressure. We call that resolution.

There's a lot of resolution in those cases. You don't have that here. Right? I keep going back to, and I don't know, I don't think the prosecution got into this, but I keep going back to, what's his motivation in confessing? His motivation is cathartic.

It's emotional. It's release. He wants peace of mind because he's feeling such turmoil and such guilt. That's his motive. His motive is not to try to alleviate his anxiety. He is someone who experiences a tremendous amount of anxiety, but he's not experiencing that. anxiety because, you know, the bad cops are coming to a cell every night and spitting in his face and telling him to confess. He's confessing to people he loves. Yeah. And I think, you know,

if you're going to discredit these confessions, I think you have to speak to that issue of motivation. If his motivation is to alleviate this guilt and to have this emotional release, this catharsis, because he's holding this. And I see this all the time. by the way, when I do interviews, I get confessions. You do. Because the perpetrators want, at some level, human beings want to talk about what they did. It bothers them. I mean, unless it's like a true psychopath and there's no remorse and no guilt, then they don't care.

Like, you know, then they just going, killing rampages and they're totally indifferent. But Richard Allen is not a psychopath or he doesn't appear to be. I wouldn't, you know, nobody sees him that way. So he wants to alleviate this anxiety and this guilt that he's experiencing. And that's why he's confessing to his mother and his wife. And if you can, if you can, you know, Dr. Martin basically said there was a very limited window when he was psychotic. So there's a very limited window of maybe a week or two where they put him on Hal Dahl. But other than that, the vast majority of these confessions are occurring when he's not.

psychotic. Correct. And they're occurring with people he loves, which shows again that this is not a bad cop in his face. So if you're going to discredit these confessions, you better explain away his motivation. I need someone to tell me if his motivation is catharsis, then you better explain why these are not accurate or honest. Right. Right. And I haven't heard anyone talk about that. So, I mean, so if, if his motivation, if, if I'm right about his motivations, and I mean, you know, people can argue against it, of course. People have, people are. That's, this case is obviously touched a nerve. People disagree with me.

That's great. But, but, but sell it to me. Sell it to me that it, that these are, these confessions are not honest and accurate. even though his motivations are that he wants to come clean and he wants to alleviate his guilt and he wants to he wants some type of catharsis and more than anything as he says repeatedly he wants to be loved and to answer that question by the way the expert who came on and talked about false memories when he says so he says I did it I did it and his wife and his mother are saying no you didn't don't say that. No, you didn't. And then he changes it to I think I did it because he's dependent

personality disorder. Oh, this is helpful. They're telling him, it's not because his memory's changed. It's because now he's feeling some ambivalence. Because the people he loves the most, he wants approval from invalidation from are telling him, don't say that, don't say that, don't. So he's like, okay, you know what? I think maybe I did it. Like he's starting to back up. He's starting to retract at that point. Yeah. Somebody saying I'm fired up. Yeah, I'm fine. I am a little fired up because,

because I want to stay with the evidence. I've seen some comments in chat. Like, people are entitled to their opinion, but please align your opinion with evidence. Well, we're getting a lot of good questions. I want to tell people I met with someone, I met a couple people today. that are some interesting stories uh i can't share them quite yet but i hope to later i hope they

talk um someone that knows richard allen but today i met with someone named kevin outside of the courtroom and he he did not know richard allen but he shared with me um he did not want to go on camera he shared with me that he actually spent time at westville um corrections facility and so i asked him He spent time there 10 years ago. And I asked them and asked him and I said, oh, so what was it like? He said, the horrible place is terrible. He goes, I was in Gen Pop and it was horrible.

And I said, well, so what are you saying about Richard Allen? He goes, Richard Allen was treated like royalty. That's what he said today after court. I'm just sharing what somebody said. He said to have all the things he had, he was treated like royalty. And then he also said that he went in, he also said that he went into Westfield Correctional Facility weighing 125 pounds and came out weighing 170 pounds because he had time to work out. And he ate the food wasn't that bad. So there you go.

This is one person, just one person. But the other point on that issue, you know, I don't know if he was treated like royalty. I don't know of anyone in solitary. And again, I don't know if that's even the right term because it's not, it's a small confined space. Yeah, he's talking. He has social interaction daily. Solitary confinement is when somebody is isolated

and doesn't have human contact. The real damage from solitary is when you don't have human contact. It's the lack of connection, social connection that creates the problems and you know there's there's there's there's all kinds of experiments and research showing that but he's not isolated in that manner right and miranda he is talking about this he is saying that keeping someone in solitary is can be torturous but what he's saying is the idea of the definition is to not have social interaction and richard allen had it so

the for for people that are familiar with the harlowe experiments i talk about that sometimes quite often. It has to do with monkeys that were that were the typical most people know the Harlow experiments with the wirecloth kind of the fake wirecloth.

When you were on a couple days ago, people wanted you to talk about that. They remembered you talking about that earlier and they were like, why is this not the same thing, Dr. John? That was one of the questions. Yes. The cloth monkeys that were separate from their mothers. Yeah. Correct. So there's another part of the Harlow experiment.

So you have a part of the Harlow experiments where the monkeys are separated from mothers and then they're given these wire mesh like stand-in figures. And the purpose of the Harlow experiments was to examine whether monkeys were more drawn to food or to comfort, essentially. And the answer was, it turns out that they were typically drawn more towards comfort,

showing that they needed closeness. They needed that sense of attachment to something that seemed or felt like their mothers. But there's another part of the Harlow experiments that aren't talked about much, because they involved, essentially, they involve animal torture. But the other, one of the things that Harlow did was he isolated monkeys. So he put monkeys in the equivalent of solitary confinement.

And he, so he had them in, and he had some monkeys in partial confinement, and they had some in full solitary. He didn't, solitary wasn't the term he used. He called it isolation. But what he found was that, that the monkeys,

as you'd expect, the monkeys did really poorly in both conditions. And some of them stopped eating. Some of them died from the lack of interaction. It was an absolutely horrendous experiment, by the way, which would never occur today. But the key variable was the lack of interaction in contact with other monkeys.

And so here, you can't really, like the problem, if you're going to make that argument, the problem is you'd have to say he wasn't he had contact with his family he had contact with his therapist every day he had contact with other people right and so this is not the harloics this is not complete and total social isolation if those monkeys i you know if those monkeys had some interaction with other other monkeys i'm sure he would have had a completely different outcome. So I think people kind of have this tunnel vision about what solitary is. And they perceive, like, they associate the word solitary confinement with torture. It depends on the situation. It might be torture. It can be to some people. And I'm sure Richard Allen felt psychologically. He felt emotionally like he was being tortured because this is someone with dependent personality disorder who needs a lot. lot of probably needs some social contact. And by the way, like, just to throw this out, like, there's very much a sense here in which the defense team is, is serving as his protector, too. They're in very much of a parental role. Like, they're playing this role of, this gets to why, by the

way, this gets to why he, that he wasn't allowed to confess and why his wife and mother and the defense team would never allow him to confess. Because with dependent personality disorder, a lot of times you let other people make decisions for you. You let them take control. And so there's very much a sense in which the defense team is acting just like his mother and his wife. They're really infantilizing this guy.

Right? They're really playing into that dependency and they're telling him, no, we're going to take care of you. We're going to protect you. Don't worry about it. We're going to get you off. Right. I mean, without that, without a defense team that's so aggressive,

he probably would have taken a deal. Yeah, somebody just said when her dad was in the Holy Day, yeah, exactly. I mean, somebody else said, by the way, that when I'm talking about the whole, I'm talking about convicted felons. That's true for the most part. Yeah. But I mean, people need to know, like, you don't have to be convicted to sit in jail. The purpose of jail is that jail is a place where they hold someone who's potentially

dangerous to the community who's going to be tried for their crime. You don't let people out of jail before their trial because they're a danger to the community. So, I mean, it sounds like some people think, oh, he has to be convicted. He should have been convicted to be held in solitary or jail or whatever. No, that's not true. Okay. Every criminal that's considered dangerous or, you know, many criminals are denied, you know, they're denied bail or bond.

and the reason is because they're deemed to be too much of a danger to the community, and the judge or whoever's making that decision will not set them free before their trial because they could go on some kind of a killing spree. So when you're accused of murdering two young girls, you're not going to be set free in all likelihood. I mean, maybe some judge would make that determination. But for the most part, you're going to be held in jail because you're not convicted, but you're, you're, you're, you're, you're,

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