Hidden True Crime - Delphi Trial Discussion with Susan Hendricks

Episode Date: November 27, 2024

Lauren Matthias and Susan Hendricks discuss the Delphi Trial. Susan Hendricks is a former HLN and CNN anchor and author of Down the Hill: My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi. About Hidden True Crime: Lauren Matthias, a former television reporter, and her husband Dr. John Matthias, a criminal psychologist, started Hidden True Crime in 2020 with their Season, 'Beyond the Veil,' a psychological deep dive into the doomsday murders and prophet. What started as a simple conversation at their dinner table became a captivating podcast. Join the dynamic duo of Dr. John Matthias, a forensic psychologist, and Lauren Matthias, an investigative journalist, as they delve into the psychological facets of unthinkable crimes every week. Their unique perspectives and in-depth analysis offer a fresh take on true crime storytelling. Thank you for your support through sponsorships, subscribing, listening, and becoming a Patreon member at Patreon.com/HiddenTrueCrime Public Episode Page Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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With new line on my plan, service plan required for watch and tab. Additional terms apply. See Verizon.com for details. Hello, Hidden Gems. It is Lauren, and I wanted to bring you an interview with someone very, very, special to me. Someone, someone that I got to know during the Richard Allen trial. Her name is Susan Hendricks. As you can see there on her, on her screen, for those of you watching, for those of you listening, I am with the Susan Hendrix. She was an HLN anchor as well as you were on CNN, CNN pipeline, CNN.

It was CNN. I was on Anderson Cooper show for about five years doing the headlines and stuff like that. That was an experience. grateful that I was on that show. Yes. And that's where that's where I first saw you and actually you live my dream because when I started broadcasting, I said, my main goal was to be a CNN on CNN. So you did it. I didn't. But thank you for coming on my show. Oh my gosh. It's great to be on. Yes. And I got to know, Susan, mostly I want to introduce though that you are the author. You're an author of Down the Hill. And I'll actually bring that up. Tell us a little bit about when you wrote this book, and I will share it here on the screen. Well, Lauren, I covered the story when it broke. It was 2017, as you know, when the girls went missing. So the next day, it was breaking news when they found the bodies of Abby and Libby. And that's when I first covered it on the set. And in my ear, as you know, being in the same business as I was, in my ear, the producer would say, okay, we have breaking news. They discovered these bodies, they'll find.

Indiana, you'll be interviewing a man who owns the property where the bodies were discovered. So that, of course, is Ron Logan. So they say after the commercial break, he'll talk to him, mic check. And I said, Ron, can you hear me? Yes, I can. And then coming back from break, it was Ron Logan saying, nothing like this had ever happened here. And my boys would play down there. And so that was the beginning of this.

Little did I know fast forward. And HLN sent me there and said, we're going to do more of a long form. on this story. And HLN really didn't do that. We were mostly trials with Casey, Anthony, Jody Arias. So I said, okay, let's go. So I went there and met then Detective Jerry Holman, Toblesenby. He was the sheriff at the time. I met Becky and Mike. And I don't think I met Tara at the time. So that was the first time, and Kelsey, of course, and she took us to photojournalist, producer myself, to the Monon High Bridge, which looks very different than it does today. So that was the beginning of this.

And they were so open and so warm and I felt horrible seeing pictures of Libby everywhere, welcoming me and the producers and everyone into their kitchen. Mike made spaghetti and meat sauce that day. So it just made me feel so different than the other stories. Because as you know, Lauren, the cycle keeps on going, the new cycle of the next story, the next story, the next story. And you're not really able to get close to anyone when you're covering these. So it was a new experience and I felt for them and I noticed how strong Kelsey was.

I think she was at the time I met her 18. And fast forward, 2019, the press conference. That was the second time I went there with Superintendent Doug Carter saying, change the direction and the new sketch. Hidden in plain sight. Hidden in plain sight. Exactly. Or we believe you live.

in Delphi or from Delphi, and we believe he could be in this room. And I'll never forget that day because everyone's in the room. I'm kind of sitting on the carpeting front row there and thinking, oh my gosh, in this room and taking notes. And I recorded it on my phone and I put my phone down, so I still have that. But you could tell him writing notes. And then I was on CNN live for the next, I don't know, 15 hours of like, oh my gosh, was he in the room and all the questions. So as I got to know these families. And as I was watching, as it was occurring, the investigation, I thought, this could be a book about what the families are experiencing from their point of view. And it's an incredible book. You know, I listened to it actually on Audible, because that's what

we did when we were at the trial. There was no time to leisurely read, right? But I had my ears on, and I was actually listening. And it was so touching to me hearing Kelsey German actually read the forward. I was so touched by that. I want to say thank you for that. And thank you for not just including the family, but having her first and right there. You know, let's hear from Kelsey before we even delve in what this was like for her. That was really touching and moving. And she really is an excellent writer. She told me when I first met her before the book was even a thought about how she loved

to write and how it was healing for her. And I thought about her writing the forward and she said yes. And I was so grateful that she did. And it just shows you you hear her when she, also tracked it. The loss, such a loss of her sister, not just a sister, but her best friend. And Lauren, I know that you met the families. Not only did you meet them, but they really appreciated and still do what you do and your work, and that meant so much because there is, believe it or not, for those who don't know this, vitriol in the true crime space, I don't know, we could talk for

hours about how that came about. And we can talk. And it's not, I'm just, self in this. And I think, but early on with Kelsey, of course, she wasn't expecting any of this. She was thrown into this whirlwind, if you will. She was on Dr. Phil soon after, and this crime got a lot of attention, Lauren, as you know, because of what Libby caught on her phone, the man on the bridge and the walking and the voice. So it's rare that you get in a case like this to hear who authority. believed at the time first they just wanted to talk to that person and then they believed that

he was involved to whoever bridge guy was. And it's rare that you're able to hear the voice of someone you believed murdered those girls. And Mike early on, and I repeat this because it stuck with me. Libby's grandfather, who she was living with said, Susan, I really think she was going to come home and say, Grandpa, look at this creepy guy that we saw on the bridge and that never happened. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure that's That's exactly what she would have done, right? Yeah. So after that, he could be in this room and the change of direction,

I remember a detective Holman calling me. And it's so good to see him at the trial. It really is full circle. I know he's poured his heart into this investigation. But he did call me. We did a special when I got back, HLN did, and we had all these guests, attorneys, former FBI, in a circle panel on set.

And he said, Susan, he give me a call when he can. So I called him and he joked. And he said, he sure mentioned the FBI a lot. And I said, well, you don't talk to me about anything. And he said, well, you know, that was our idea, not there, the press conference. And I thought, oh, my gosh. Well, who's that? So, and now, knowing what I know now and looking back, it was kind of this break,

which obviously I think happens a lot more than we know. You see it in the movies. But a break of like, okay, who has control? who's in control of this investigation. And we found out now that Superintendent Carter, who testified at the trial, said that, yes, he did say, okay, FBI are free of your services for us, but he said they knew that they could call them at any time to pitch in. But the day-to-day investigative process was really with Indiana State Police. You know, and I have so many questions for you. You know, as you know, I watched from the public. I saw you reporting on it. I watch. I learned about this crime with the public. And it wasn't until the arrest in 2022 that I jumped on it as a podcaster and started reporting on what I was seeing.

I have so many questions for you. I feel like you need to write a sequel to the book post the trial. By the way, I hope you do. Well, once I was able to write the book or knew that I was going to write the book, I thought, oh, my gosh, do I know how to write a book? And it was harder than anything I've ever done because it's not what I was used to. really kind of you. And it's clearly a story that I knew the people. So I wanted it to be exactly right and going through my notes and having this stack and feeling overwhelmed. And I felt

like Tom Hanks talking to a volleyball in my room. I stayed in my room for five months every single day. My son was like, please don't write another book. But I've heard that about writing a book. You just, yeah, you hunker down and you don't talk and you don't eat and you just. And it's on my end, I was the type of person in college. I'd cram and even high school the night before. So I squeezed in what should have been writing each day into like five months. It just wrote, wrote, wrote, wrote, wrote. But I knew the story and I remember sending Becky a chapter and saying, what do you think of this?

And what do you think of? Because I wanted them to know, I asked Becky what she thought of it. And I wanted them to know that this is the perspective I'd be taking from their point of view, not from any other point of view. And I did talk about the investigation too, but it was never my intent or who I am as a person, period, to try to investigate this murder, these murders, the horrific murders. But it wasn't my thing to do.

There are people out there that Deanna Thompson and I was lucky enough to interview for part of the book. She's in Don't F with Cats, that Netflix show. and she has the investigative skill that I just didn't want the perspective to be from that angle because that's not what I did or do. It's a wonderful book and you really did put the family angle in. It's, I recommend it to anyone. You know, and I find it interesting as a journalist.

You really delved into this case, as you say, this sort of became your human interest case. In other words, you would go from crime to crime. crime. As you say, it never gets easier. You just put your game face on. We do what we do. And this one really grabbed you and you could not let this go. You sort of explained why you went to dinner. You met the patties. You met the families. Tell me about, you know, what we just concluded this trial. What was it like seeing this through? As sort of your story and being there, knowing the families, being so involved, having written a book, watching this trial play out. Because I have to say this, as I pointed out, I came on this later, right?

Than you. This was a trial, unlike any trial I've ever reported on. Me too. What are your thoughts seeing this through? Well, we're great. I know you are too. It just comes with the job of compartmentalizing. You have to.

You have to. So you could cover certain stories and that's what you're able to do. But with this, and I mentioned this in the book, is that for the first time I felt like I was on their side of the camera and not my side, because you're you're protected by that. And you move on and you move on and you move on. It doesn't mean you're not empathetic. It just means that it's the next new cycle.

It's your job. You do what you do. Yeah, exactly. And I've even gotten criticized for this a lot for being on that side. But I thought, well, it's a perspective I'm taking. And, you know, I sound like a nonchalant now, but like sometimes it does bother me. Or it did. Oh, I imagine.

And I always go back to like, all right, it's not about you. It's never about me. It's about these families. And I just was sensitive to it. And you know what? The bottom line is I just cared. They invited me in. And I cared. I cared what happened to them. I cared about the horrific day to day that they would have to go through without the girls. And I think it was being in their homes. And I was at Abby's home as well with her grandmother, Diane, showing me photo albums and seeing Abby's sneakers and her cat, bongo, her black cat and her swing set. It's like they were just there. So that's what was so

heart-wrenching. And if you don't, so it's easy to hide behind a computer and say, and implicate family members, which is gross. But to do that when you don't know them, and then they're almost not human to you. And you could, I don't say easy. And I'm not saying everybody does this. All you need to select few. And but that's hurtful. And so I guess it was me becoming close to them and getting to know them on a different level. But I do remember what Paul Holz told me. This was CrimeCon in Las Vegas. And this is before anyone was arrested. I believe it was 2021.

It was September, I believe. No, that was Orlando. So this is Las Vegas. And on stage- This was Las Vegas. I was there too. I think it was 20. Oh, you were?

Was it 2021? Yeah, Orlando was after. Yep. I wish I could imagine it was. Yes, yes. And Paul Holst did say, first of all, he's a wonderful person. And his level of being able to detect things and see things that we don't is unprecedented. clearly. But he is modest. And I remember him saying, Susan, are you sure they don't mind if I'm on

stage with you? I'm thinking because they did invite me to speak with them to be the host of the panel. And I said, let me check with Mike. I said, Mike, what do you think about Paul Holes being on stage? And, you know, he's he's not that slick kind of a guy that maybe people think he is. He's really modest and kind. And the reason I asked that way is because I didn't want the families, because it's their dialogue and it's whatever they want to say to help get the word out there. And he said, and Mike is funny. He said, I'll think about it. He said, yeah, you can have them on.

And just, I think he added so much and of course told the family what he thought. And I saw Mike really kind of zoning in on Paul Holes. But he did say this. Once someone is arrested, it just doesn't go away. It's not because they were looking for someone for so long, handing out flyers. They worked tirelessly. But he said that it'd be a new. morning period, a different sense of mourning. And you would look at this person, whoever it was,

person or persons at that time, and say, is that the last person they saw? And it's a different type of emotional roller coaster. And I saw that. Once someone was arrested, Richard Allen, it looked like someone took the wind out of Becky's sales. She looked depleted. And she's always a go-getter. Go, go, go, go, go, go. And each family, for those who don't know this story as well as we do, the families were very different. Abby's family is more kind of reserved. And when Mike did his first press conference, before I met the families, this was March, I believe 7th, right after it happened, 2017.

And he said, he still contact Abby's family. You can go through me. He thanked the media. And he read a letter from the family on their behalf. And that's when he kind of knew, okay, Mike's at the head of this right now. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent.

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but so he was found guilty. Now what? The girls still aren't in their homes. The laughter's gone, the moment's gone. They will forever. I remember interviewing Kim Goldman's father and he said, Susan, forever, Ron Goldman will be that age 25 to me and never grow old. And that's true. There were milestones with Libby's friends, and they got to decorate their own parking space in high school. And she never got to do that. And now that Kelsey's a mom to a little girl who's so cute,

and she's pregnant again with a girl, she won't be able to have those experiences and meet Kelsey's daughter. So every milestone, it's always this hole in their heart. So I think that probably is what they're going through now. What's one financial lesson you learned the hard way? I'll go first. It's not too late to start saving. Today's episode is sponsored by Acorns. Acorns is a financial wellness app that makes it easy to start saving and investing for your future. You don't need to be an expert. Acorns will recommend a diversified portfolio that matches you and

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You know, if I were them, I don't know how they handled what they did during the trial, watching them from far, you know, there's a gag order, there's conspiracy theories, there's lives, there's people accusing family members of things. Still, you know, years later, seven years later, I felt the angst. Like the, I feel like if I had been them, I would have screamed and been so upset. I just want to thank you again. I think in this situation, because of that, they really did rely on a trusted reporter and people like you.

Did you sense that? I did. And I can share about that. I did. I feel like Becky speaking, especially I know that crime con, if you're not familiar with what that is. And Lauren, maybe you've discussed it. But it's where victims, families and can come together and either get the word of the case out there, or it's just people, the audience members of people who love true crime or want to help or just are really engaged.

And I know for those who don't know, it sounds weird crime con, but you don't dress up. It's not like Comic-Con. But I found it to be before my first year there was New Orleans. I think 2019 was my first year with the families. and I didn't know what to expect and I wasn't sure how I was going to do public speaking. I was so nervous. But the crowd is so warm and welcoming. It's unlike anything I've ever experienced.

It's a wonderful crowd. And that is where I know Kevin Balfwell and he's one of the guys who first started this, put this on with the Red Seat Ventures. And he, I do believe that Kelsey found solace there was able to connect. That to me is what I found the most of. You're able to connect with people who really know how. you feel really can say my sister was murder too. Where else can you find that? So I think and Becky has said to me that really helped Kelsey to be able to, okay, now I'm an advocate. I have purpose.

She didn't die in vain. These girls did not die in vain. So I believe that Becky found that to be healing as well. And I know that during that particular crime con, Diane was there too, Abby's grandmother on stage and talking about, she said, look, I can't change. I can't change. something, what happened. I'll never be able to bring Abby back. She said, my heart's broken for my daughter. That was her only daughter, Abby's mom she was talking of. So it was just kind of the stages and the heartbreak that they go through and all the missed timeline, everything on the timeline, all the missed kind of milestones that they go through. So I think that she found that healing. And by no means am I the only journalist that the families have spoken to, and I know throughout this before

the gag order. Rafael Sanchez comes to mind that trusted his local Indiana, and we got to see them at the trial. So there were people that they trusted, and you know, Becky's a very forgiving person and a kind person. I can't stress that enough, and so is Mike, and so is Diane. But she's open to say, she'll come up to you and say, hey, how are you? She'll remember everyone's name. And So I think that she felt that that was kind of healing for her throughout. And I think once the gag orders lifted, maybe she won't, but maybe she would like to, to, there is no such thing as closure. I've learned that throughout. But I'm sure that she'll speak again and talk about her experience.

Yeah. They were so brave in the courtroom, too. You know, they were there to witness everything. They were so strong to, you know, even some of those. those hardest photos to look at and I would look over and they were there just being so strong bearing witness to their, you know, their granddaughter, their sister. It was, I am so impressed by this family and what they, they have been warriors for these girls. Were you there when Cizaro was on the stand? Yes. Yes. I was there. Taking us through. When, Lauren, when

Cisero was on the stand, the blood expert, is it Major Patrick Cisero. And that was the day because getting into court was a whole other situation that everyone had to go through. And that's how I feel like I know Lauren so much more so than I would if we could just walk into court. I know. I know we got to know you guys. We all bonded. I mean, if we could just walk in, that's a whole, I mean, topic within itself. Yes.

But that was the day I had a media badge. You're like the chosen one, but it would rotate. And then it was out of the media pool. But that was the day that I took notes. And so you're in the front row. And that's the day that I'm the pool reporter. So I knew that everyone would be looking at my notes. Now, I wasn't used to writing for hours and hours and getting every quote.

And I had highlighters and I'm trying to do my best. And it was Cizoros. So you're paying attention to every single word. And I had seen him on the stand at a hearing at the end of July, beginning of August. and I knew that it was heart-wrenching to hear him. It truly was. He was on the stand and they're showing images. And I had yet to see the crime scene photos at this particular point.

Maybe they showed one in court. I'm not sure before that. But this was up close. And technology, they weren't that savvy in the courtroom. And so it was almost like a big iPad that was shown, not a TV screen. So if you touched it, it would zoom in. And Cisero got up and he touched it and it zoomed in. and it was Libby, like, with blood on her face.

And it's so horrible. There was an audible gasp at that moment in the courtroom. I know you know this because I hear that a lot, the audible gasp. And sometimes I'm wondering, was there or is that just in writing? This there was when he talked about the blood across Libby's face. And I'm sorry to be graphic, but it was up, you would see. And then he talked about kind of how that could occur. And he believed she was dragged by one arm a couple of yards.

And he was talking about like a mark on her face. And he said, without the presence of water, I took down the quote, that would coincide with what would be a tear. He was basically saying it was a tear. And that was the gas floren. Do you remember that? Yeah. It was so like, it really was. Oh, my gosh, because I remember Becky saying to me, I hope she didn't suffer.

Well, a tear says she knows what was going on. She knows. So that was like, oh, my gosh, I'll never forget that day. And not that I wouldn't have paid attention where I was sitting. I probably wouldn't have seen as much. But it was just, I'll never forget that moment ever. And I can't imagine being the families and seeing that. And that front road to explain to everyone when you were the pool reporter taking notes.

Again, usually being a pool reporter means you get to have audio or, a video and then you just hand it over. You're in charge of actually handwritten notes. You are sitting on the front row where you can hear the best. Each row back is harder to hear. You know, I express that to our listeners multiple times. You need to tell. So you're that day, in other words, you're there, you're front and center, you're hearing and seeing everything. Everything's elevated, right, which I've covered a lot of court cases. I've never been in a courtroom that long for the whole entire trial, even if it was in. or HLN. I'd go in for a couple days, come back. The new cycle. The new cycle, you've got to

get everything done. Yeah. Exactly. And when it was Casey Anthony, let's say, it was Michaelanos, who I worked with. He was there, Sandusky. He was in the courtroom. So for me, to be there every single day. And you know, court cases, they have ebbs and flows. And a day could be, for lack of a better word, boring. If you're talking about DNA or lack of and the scientific aspects and the bullet and the markings on an unspent bullet. But this day was everything was elevated and I didn't realize in a courtroom and maybe it was because it was Carroll County. I'm not sure. But the acoustics, you couldn't, you couldn't hear anything in the back, especially. I think that Judge Gold changed that a little bit and McLean would always stand up and say, you have to project your

voice. And I remember it was, there was someone on the stand that finally spoke really close to the Mike. I'm like that because it can be an issue if you're trying to hear and listen to everything. But that day was elevated for me and so horrific. Yeah. No, thank you for sharing that and explaining how that happened. And yes, we got to know each other through the line. You're right. Had you been able to get it in access every day? And you might have mentioned this. But so you lined up and everyone had to get in and it was. And I would never want to talk. about it inside because I felt like we were complaining and we weren't allowed to talk, but if we could at a moment where Judge Cole wouldn't be mad at us, I didn't want to seem

like I was complaining because once you get in, you're like, okay, you can exhale and you're like, this is a double murder trial of two young girls. You never forgot that, but you didn't want to complain about anything. Well, slowly but surely word got out and this just tells you who they are to the families and they brought food in the middle of the night, pizza, You name it. Becky was telling me that Tara Libby's aunt would swing by food. I mean, they cared about us. And some people on that line weren't that nice to the families, but they brought pizza anyway. So that just... Right. Exactly. A lot of people, they were not nice to the family. And they were still bringing food to us at 4 a.m. and at 5 a.m. in the morning. It just shows you who they are. And once you've got in, and I know, Lauren, you know this. And then so there'd be a morning break. And then there was a lunch break. You had to go back down and line up again. At times, at times, I felt like I was at Rikers and you don't want to make a false move or you're in trouble. I would joke. Right, right.

And then if you think you're safe, there was one day, I don't know if you were there. I did there was one day. I thought I was safe. I had hit every goal post. Yeah. I had been there since it was pitch black outside. I had line sitters. We were up.

You know, there's this line. There's a line outside and there's a line getting in. Then there's a line at the top of the stairs. And then once you're there and they count you, you're like good to go. Right. And I was in that line. And all of a sudden I was like, I have to go to the bathroom right now. I actually didn't feel well.

So I was nauseous. I was like, I was there. You were there. So that's what people don't realize either is I had already like used the restroom for I was like, oh my gosh. I mean, TMI, but like I was like, I'm going to throw up right now. And I just like ran to the restroom and I came back out. Right.

And he was like, back the line. And I was like, but this deputy 99% of them were nice, right? And he was nice too. I was like, I understand. I respect. Not really. He was not nice. And I remember, okay, so that day, this guy was mean and he had, he was angry at something. And you just ran up. But he acted like you just ran up from outside and didn't spend the whole line outside. And he said, no, it's been the whole night there. I was like, but. I'm thinking, oh, no, God, no, she's been on this line. So we get in. You finally got in that day. Right. I did. I was the last one in. Did he stay sorry or anything?

I have a bad habit of like wanting to explain myself. And so I was like, no, no, no, I was here. He didn't want to hear it, right? He didn't want to hear it. I was like, but you don't understand. Back a line. So after everybody went in, I stopped my bad habit. And I was just like, I understand.

I respect you. You think, you know, and he's softened a bit. And he's like, okay, you've got one spot in there. A lot of these deputies work in the prisons in the jail. So it would be like if we were prisoners talking. back. They don't want to hear it. They don't want to hear the excuse. They don't want to hear the excuse. And they don't care. Everything we don't care venting about, then they don't care. Judge Girl doesn't care. And I understand it. She's been burned, but this was excessive. So she

was on the stand one day, and she said, I understand. And the jury, she was very kind to the jurors, of course, and they were out of the room. And she's a, I hear that people can't hear. Essentially, I'm paraphrasing, I don't care. I only care about the jury and the pool reporters. I don't care about anyone else, clearly. Most people don't realize how much. their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers, spammers, even stalkers.

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because they kept moving the goalpost. So we'd line up, and then we'd line up again, and then you'd line up again. And there was one day Kevin and Anya from Murder, She Were Outside. It was just a cutoff. And I saw Anya's face. And I got to know Kevin and Anya at the hearing in July, and then at the jury selection in Fort Wayne.

Murder She is a podcast. So I feel like they're my best friends, because once you've gone through all of that, and I've been waiting in line with them, so I just come out. It was not the same day with you, but it was the same guy. And I said, excuse me, there's two more seats in there.

And he goes, worry about your own seat. And I just scurried in. I'm like, okay. You're like, I know, do I push? Do I do this? Do I not? Is it a good day? I saw Anya's face.

If this was after what happened to you, I wouldn't have made a false move. But I didn't know yet. So I'm like, excuse me. This guy's massive. And he's like, worry about your own seat? I'm like, they got it. Yeah. Got it.

There was one day where Anya actually didn't get in. And sometimes Anya and Kevin would, you know, say, I'll go in and you stay out. But there was, there's one moment which also shows how people really came together. And Anya didn't make it. I don't think either of them were in. And someone stood up. It was Anthony. He stood up and he's like, you can have my seat.

You're a better reporter than I am. And he got up and left. So nice. Up Greeno. And he let me a phone one, his phone one day. But that was right. People started, you had, you were sticking together. that line most everyone because you're all going through the same thing to get in there. So needless to

say, it'll be interesting to see what happens at the sentence hearing. But it was how many days was the trial? Was it 19? It depended on if you consider jury selection. But it was day in and day out. And on your topic, what you first mentioned was the families were there for everything. 63 plus pieces of evidence. Sorry, witnesses on the stand. And like, Throw in that Kelsey's pregnant, too. Oh, there goes on pillow. Every day. The only time she wasn't was when her daughter was sick, but it was every day to see this and hear this.

But they promised they'd be there and they were. And granted, this is a very small courtroom, a beautiful courtroom, very small. Tall. I know, people get confused. And big in some ways, tall, big, bad of the statistics. Right, beautiful. But the seats were limited. And so Becky was concerned there wouldn't even be enough seats for her family.

members to come. So yeah, there are a lot. Susan, and I want to ask, I don't want to take up too much of your time. We're so grateful that you're here and we know how busy you are. I think one of the big things that as a podcaster and YouTuber and someone reporting at the trial was I was just so surprised at varying views and varying views and opinions as we're all hearing that are fair. But can I ask you where you are and how you feel about this verdict? I saw you all. on Tom Webster show too, so I know what you're talking about. And I know my on Tom Webster show. I got, I interrupted too many people. I was at my wits end. We could leave that out. But I was. I was like, F this. We were all on our, our wit's end at some point. So that's fair to say.

You can talk about that. I was like, fuck this. I'm like, there's fucking QAnon on crime people out there. Because it's Tommy show, like I'm saying whatever I want. But I'm like, we're not tiptoeing around this anymore. I was losing it like Jack Nicholson in my room. But, um, I lost it a few times. There were tears. That's what I wanted to have you on. I'm like, come talk about what we just went through. And real quick, before I answer, my husband was in here setting up,

and I'm so glad you said, like, I've never experienced something like that because I saw his face because I've been telling him, like, you have no idea. And to hear it from you, like, you just have no idea. So, all right. And I've been, I have sat through full murder trial. It's was, and they're all hard. They're all hard. There was just this unique aspect.

You can't make this shit up if you try. You're so fucking nuts. I think I do have PTSD. All right. I know. That's what I'm trying to tell people. So I'm glad I can validate you and your husband heard because it's really hard to explain to people. Your old or broken phone can let you down.

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I laid in bed for two days and I felt like I've been beat up. I never felt that before. And I've done morning shows my whole career and I was like, I can't move. And I didn't lift a weight and not do one exercise at 30 days. So it was crazy. All right, I'll answer that question. Okay. So my belief is they do have. have the right guy. Do I feel like there were mistakes made within the investigation? Yes. Do I feel like that everyone did the best they could with the resources they had and the knowledge they had? Yes. I believe that Richard Allen was the biggest piece of evidence. His word, I believe Richard Allen. And if you believe Richard Allen, and he says he was there at that particular time soon after the murders, I believe it was two days later, he came forward to Dan Doolin in that grocery store,

lot and said, I was there. I was there. Then again in 2022, during the interviews, I thought that was a huge day when Liggett was talking to him and the investigator, Steve Mullen, and he said, I was there. What were you wearing? And he said the same outfit. So I believe or something similar, and I know everyone in Indiana has that kind of uniform, if you will, but I believe that he was the evidence that they needed to convict. Was I was surprised, was I, that there was no DNA? Yes, but I don't think that I can, I'm not an expert by any means, not even close of when DNA is there, when it's not, was the person wearing gloves. But I do believe that the jury, I thought it was an, I saw it from jury selection.

That was the first time I witnessed jury selection. I'm so glad I did. I learned so much. I'm so grateful that they were sequestered because of all the information surrounding this. And I'm so grateful they were from that county and not from Delpherson. fight people are just as you would understand it too close. But for those who think that Richard Allen didn't get a fair trial, I believe that he did. And I believe it may have been, I believe it was a disservice to not have at least the audio out there. So everyone can make judgments on them,

on their own and hear all of the confessions. Do I believe that he should have been in that prison? Absolutely not. I think the defense had something to argue there. And I think they argued it. they did a good job. I truly believe that. But do I feel like it was beyond a reasonable doubt that Richard Allen killed Abby? 100% yes. Thank you for sharing that. I agree. He shouldn't have been there, but it doesn't change the evidence and mistakes were made. And it doesn't change the evidence. I see it the way you see it. I trust this jury. They deliberated. They listened. They took notes. The questions were amazing. The questions I know. you knew that they, not only were they listening, but some of their questions, I'm like,

these people are highly intelligent. Yeah, I was like, wait, what? I don't even know what they asked. I'm just like thinking of lunch and you guys are like, what did you just get? And you could kind of sense, like, based on their particular jobs, kind of what they knew. And I forgot as we went along kind of what each person did for a living or their expertise, but you could clearly sense that they knew what they were. talking about with these questions and with the DNA and the ballistics and just the questions,

I really thought that gave us a look inside of how they were thinking throughout the trial. And I think that all states should adopt that because imagine if you and I, Lauren, were on a jury and then we had to go back and deliberate after 375 pieces of evidence and 62 witnesses, I think, oh my gosh, what are my questions? So to be able to ask throughout and get those answers, I think were helpful in the deliberation time. But I will say, nothing is a slam dunk. I had no idea what the outcome would be. And people can guess we did that with Jodi Arias, Casey Anthony, Scott Peterson.

Oh, is it too soon? They're out this long. That means it's go, they're locked. It's going to be a mistrial. But you never really know. So I had no idea. And when it went into Monday, but it just showed you how much time they took. and how they really, they each had a folder with all of their notes in there.

And it shows, I'm curious to see what the breakdown was or what they all thought. Maybe one day we'll hear that. But it was interesting to see the whole process. And I believe they came to the right conclusion. You know, I want to say I agree with you that I believe that if there had been audio or something from the courtroom, it would have helped. I think that was part of why this trial was so hard was it felt there was a sort of heaviness of like, we have to relay this information. and what everybody's hearing and what they're relaying is it was broad and it was confusing. And I agree that it was a disservice to the public.

I think this is one reason that as journalists, we believe in transparency. I understand why Judge Gull made her choices and I respect her decisions. But again, I think that had people been able to listen for themselves, I agree with you. I think it would have helped the entire process. I want to ask you really quickly about jury selection because I was not there at jury selection. and there are a lot of questions about these jurors. How well did they know about this case? Can you give us?

I mean, I know you don't remember each one maybe individually, but overall you're feeling about this jury. Well, my father's an attorney and I said, I'm going to jury selection. He just said, why, it's kind of a mundane process to go. Well, he didn't realize I had never seen it, or maybe he just thought it's not that important in terms of the process. I think as he's seen it so often clearly.

But because HLN, of course, and CNN. You didn't show that. You don't want to show the juror. So it was interesting for me, but they did the question that was asked, and it was by Judge Gall, how many of you have heard about this case? And at first I saw them hesitant, and then a lot of them raised their hand in the group that was brought up. So there was a whole section that was brought up. They sat down, kind of where we were sitting, but this was Allen County, a much bigger courtroom. And then they would be called up, I believe, maybe 12 at a time. And then they were asked questions. And then McLean would go up and ask questions, and then Rosie or Baldwin would ask questions.

And then they'd go back to their desks and kind of write out notes of like who scratching out. And Richard Allen was involved. Like, no, yes, no. We didn't know why they picked a particular person. But then after that, Judge Gull would say, juror number two, you're excused, juror number 16 year excuse. So they would kind of leave the room and then the next group was brought up. But a lot of people had heard about the case. Another question was how many of you are law enforcement or have relatives who are? A lot of people raise their hand. And it was, okay, you've heard about the case. And then Judge Gull would say, juror number two, how much tell us about that? Well, I heard about it just in passing at the dinner table, but does that mean you can make a fair decision? Will that impact how you decide or what you think of this case? Can you be fair and impartial? And this person said, I can be.

And so that would not get them excused because it's still Indiana. I mean, people heard about it around this case. Yeah. And so that was interesting for me. But this one woman and Judge Gull said, look, we want you to be truthful. And McLean was the first one up. He said, I don't care. I want you to tell me the truth so I can make the best decisions for this case for

Richard Allen. But Judge Gull would say, oh, another step was they read off their witness. list and do you know any of these people yes or no if you do raise your hand if you don't and this woman was in the front row and back to head she heard about the case she said i have heard about it well how well i started a facebook group and i already made my decision who i of guilt or innocence you do yes well with that change no so she was excused and someone said raised his hand is there any issue judge call said of why you couldn't serve on this jury and one guy raised his hand and he He said I was unemployed for so long.

I finally got a job and I'd be worried about it. Is that where your mind would be? Would you be listening to the case or would you be worried? He said worried. He was, there was one guy. I haven't seen this. I haven't seen any jury selection before, but it was, raise your hands, sir. He said, yes.

He said, I'm a psychic. I could really be used as a witness for the prosecution, but I'm a psychic. And, okay, so we're on break and I walk out. excused and he walks next to me, said, I can hear Richard Allen's heartbeat in there. I said, oh, and ran to the bathroom. So you talked to him even. I had heard of that story. That's interesting. And then one more, there was like a guy in his 30s in front row, kind of leaning back. And I'm like, oh my God, can he just be respectful? And he was answering so in a rude manner, but kind of funny. And then he just, is there any reason you can't? And he raised dancing. Please don't put me

on this case. I don't want to be on this. Please. And it did get a laughter in court. And she said, I don't want to do it. And she said, well, then we don't want you to do it because they don't need someone on there. And there were, of course, women and men with kids, little kids. So any issue you could think of, they want people who can serve and whose mind will be fully in. And I think being sequestered, although it was probably excruciating, considering we're all on our phones. They couldn't use them unless a deputy was standing by.

Or they could write work emails with a deputy right there. although I'm sure it was difficult for them, I think it helped them come to the conclusion that they did and be a fair and impartial jury. But I think seeing that process was eye-opening for me in a good way. Thank you for sharing that. No, I appreciate that. A jury that we can trust then, in other words, they did their due diligence. Okay. And a variety.

I was surprised by, you know, I mean, as far as diversity goes, not very diverse as far as ethnicity goes, but it's Indiana and it's one county. A jury of your peers, right. It's a jury of your peers. And you were trying to assess, like, what are they thinking? You could never tell. The only thing I noticed with the jury is the one guy on the top row, always scanning the crowd, like always looking around

and taking in the surroundings and looking at how people reacted to things. And there's one thing I do want to say for those who think Richard Allen did not get a fair trial. That's what the appeals process is for. Do I think he'll get one, not necessarily? necessarily. But again, there were mistakes made, but I believe they do have the right guy, and there was overwhelming amount of circumstantial evidence. But I always say, why would the family want the wrong guy in custody? That would mean that a child killer was out there. And if you think maybe, oh, someone else was involved, back to Paul Holes, on his assessment, and his history will show you,

he knows what he's talking about, it's that usually men like this work alone. And if he didn't, he would have mentioned that other person, I believe, by now. It's very rare that, you know, you can convince a guy to maybe rob a bank, but to do something like this, it's far-fetched. But again, I wouldn't want the wrong person in custody, of course, and if Richard Allen was innocent and I felt that, I would say that, too, but I believe he is guilty. Yeah. Yeah, the evidence, I sat there listening with open mind, and the evidence led me to the same place. You know, law enforcement got a lot of flack at this trial. there were mistakes made, but as you shared in your book, and I want to bring up your book again, but in your book, you got to know these law enforcement personally. You were at that 2019 press

conference with Doug Carter. Can you tell us a little bit about your thoughts on law enforcement in this case? I just think, and speaking of Doug Carter, I think he's a class act, and there's really no one like him that I've ever met in terms of different stories. And he always took the brunt of everything. He did interview after interview after interview. And he would always say, Susan, I can't say what I think. I can only say what I know. And right now, we can't tell you everything we know for the integrity of the investigation. And again, there were mistakes made.

And when someone was in custody, it was October 31st, 2022. I did a panel. And he came on. And again, very modest. He said, I by no means am taking credit for this. There are people who put off retirement. As I mentioned in the book, some of the officers had their screensaver of Abby and Libby. They put their hearts and souls into this and seeing what they saw.

Now I know what they saw with the crime scene photos. This was very personal to them. It's a small community. And with Doug Carter, who I believe was leading this throughout, would always say, if it was something bad, take it out on me. And he said, Susan, how do you think I feel? And he wasn't feeling sorry for himself, but he did say, I have a grandfather, meaning Mike, asking me, why don't you have this guy? You know what he looks like? You know what he sounds like. Libby did her part. Do yours at time because he doesn't mince words. And he was saying, what is taking so long? What can I do? How can I help? And by no means, were the family just following and not saying much. They were involved and they wanted this solve just as much as anyone. And I'm grateful that Richard Allen did come forward and talk about what he wore. And I know that people say it's a small town. Even my father, who I mentioned an attorney, would say, why can't they get the guy? He's on the bridge. He has that outfit on. And I said,

well, dad, it's very small. And I feel like everyone has that outfit and the face was blurry. But I believe that Libby in the closing arguments, Nick McClellan, and then the rebuttal of closing, so he has the final word, said that Libby always wanted to solve crimes. She did. She was interested in that. And he said, and she did her own, which was so touching. Oh, my gosh. I know. That moment, that moment, I will not forget. I want to bring up your. book one more time, Susan, down the hill. It is an incredible book. If you guys want to understand this case and how it affected this town and the families and the details, this is the book. And I just want to thank you for writing it and for caring about this case. And I think there's a moment in a

journalist's life where a story becomes bigger and it becomes a human interest story more. So you realize and you have to delve in and you have to do your part when you see something that needs a little bit more attention. And you certainly did that when you told this story. And for that, I thank you. You've taught me a lot. Again, like I always say, I jumped in and I looked to people like you, as I say, the experts to help me understand. John and I did all the research we possibly could. Listen to all the podcasts, talked to as many people as we could before. But we weren't there, you know in 2019 we weren't there in 2017 into I just want to thank you for caring about this enough that you you did this you were doing interviews every day oh and one last story I want to apologize I was going live

after the verdict I jumped out and I was going live in the car and or not in the car I was going live outside of the car you were in our car using it because you had to do interviews all these news interviews you were doing news interview after news interview after I felt so bad when you got out and you jumped to the little corner, just so you know. I wasn't saying that's to get out of my car. I was like kind of wandering around going like, okay, I'm going to find a spot. She's there. And then all of a sudden, you jumped out and you, I was like, I felt so bad. But speaking of you and John, I think you do an excellent job. And your husband is nails it. Because we always ask the question, why would, why did he do that? Or why did she do that? You never really get the answer you're looking for,

but you can kind of analyze and you want to know the process. And I always ask, is it nature or nurture, you never really know that it's not formulaic. You never get the answer you want, but I think you and your husband do an excellent job on your show and of just kind of pinpointing how this could have come about. And back to the car thing, I was on Nancy Grace and she could love her. She's passionate, but she was saying to the producer, I can't hear Susan. The wind is too loud. And I was like, oh my gosh. So then I just huddled in this like, because I knew you ever had got a shot at the very end of my live. I'm like, there's Susan Hendricks and you were sitting. on the sidewalk in this little wind tunnel.

And I should have clipped on a mic, but I didn't think of it. And everything was frantic. But it was, I felt like, okay, the verdict is here. We have this. So it was a surreal moment for me. I was on the ground sitting there and never been so content going, okay, can you hear me? No wind. But that was funny.

No, it was scrambling all around. And when the verdict came out, I know you were outside too. But one person screamed, we're all Richard Allen's. And again, I want to point out there is such a divide here of fair trial or not fair trial. And there's even podcasters that I listened to or watched YouTubers who said, you know, going into this, I thought he was not guilty. Now I've heard from people inside the courtroom and I do believe that he is. But again, we wouldn't want the wrong person in prison.

But I want to end on that you and your husband are doing such a great service by talking about everything that you saw in the courtroom because, of course, there's no cameras or audio. So you're bringing that. And then the analysis, which I love. Thank you. Thank you, Susan. I appreciate this interview so much. Thank you for taking your time out of your morning to do this interview.

And we will definitely be in touch. And again, I'm there to buy the sequel to your book to, the post-trial sequel, if you ever write it. But this book is incredible. And it's a book that if you want to understand this case, you see. start with down the hill by Susan Hendricks. So thanks for much. Thanks.

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