Hidden True Crime - Dr John's Take on the Delphi Murder Case, Richard Allen's Arrest, Trial, & Theories

Episode Date: October 22, 2024

Lauren is headed to Delphi, Indiana for the trial of Richard Allen, and Dr John Matthias, forensic and clinical psychologist, is here to give his take on the case, crime, arrest, and theories. About Hidden True Crime: Lauren Matthias, a former television reporter, and her husband Dr. John Matthias, a criminal psychologist, started Hidden True Crime in 2020 with their Season, 'Beyond the Veil,' a psychological deep dive into the doomsday murders and prophet. What started as a simple conversation at their dinner table became a captivating podcast. Join the dynamic duo of Dr. John Matthias, a forensic psychologist, and Lauren Matthias, an investigative journalist, as they delve into the psychological facets of unthinkable crimes every week. Their unique perspectives and in-depth analysis offer a fresh take on true crime storytelling. Thank you for your support through sponsorships, subscribing, listening, and becoming a Patreon member at Patreon.com/HiddenTrueCrime Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Quince uses premium materials like European linen, organic cotton, but they cut out the middleman. So everything is priced way lower than you'd expect. Refresh. your every day with luxury you can actually use. Head to quince.com slash hidden true crime for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quince, quince, q-u-in-c-com slash hidden true crime for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash hidden true crime. Hello, hidden gems. This is as surprise of a live as you can get, John and I were about to sit down and request. And record a very important Delphi podcast for all of you. And then we looked at each other and said, should we just go live? Let's just go live. So this is a unscheduled live. And we are glad that all

of you could be here. There is a lot to talk about. Before we begin, let me just share what's going on. We're busy packing. I'm doing laundry. And by doing laundry, I've been doing laundry all day. I think I'm halfway through because I am taking off for Delphi, Indiana. And I plan to attend the trial of Richard Allen. Richard Allen is charged in the murders of Libby, German, and Abby Williams, two young girls who lost their lives in 2017. And Richard Allen wasn't even charged until 2022. Two, there is a lot of talk going on with this case.

And for those that want to get caught up, I have the full backstory pinned in chat. It's also in the description of this video. After our live is done, I'll also put it in a pinned comment. You can find our crash course or our full Delphi backstory, everything you need to know as this trial begins. Jury selection is happening right now.

On our YouTube channel, that's what I've linked here. But you can also find, find it on our podcast. And for those that are not subscribed to our podcast, definitely go subscribe to our podcast, hidden true crime, anywhere where you listen to podcast, because I will be going live during the trial, but I will also be doing and producing podcast episodes for all of you to keep you apprised about what is going on. And the reason that John and I have decided that I should go to this trial, and we've been talking about this for quite some time, is because there is

less transparency in this case and in this trial than there are typically. And they are actually not letting cameras in the courtroom, but not just that. They're not giving us audio in the courtroom like they did with Lori Vallow's trial. They are not allowing cell phones in the courtroom. They are not allowing laptops in the courtroom. So there will be no live tweeting either. And those of us that are going to attend trial, we will be sharing what we will be sharing what we were able to write down in our notebook with a pen or a pencil. I actually had to go buy notebooks because I don't use those anymore. And we plan to bring you what we can. So, and I want you to know what I plan to do at the trial. And then I'm going to give the time over to John,

the criminal psychologist, who's in the headline of this, of this live. But I just want to bring you the information. I want to let you know what is being said from both the defense. the prosecution, what is going on in the courtroom? Because I just feel like right now, what is really needed at trial is just information, everything going on. So that's what I plan to bring you. But this is not my show. It's something that is important that many people have asked, which is help us to understand this crime. And John has been digging into the information on this case for months now. And really, I think, just so many of us have so many questions because, and again, if you listen to our crash course,

you'll understand all of this, but from the lapse in time it took to arrest Richard Allen, to this idea of odinism that the defense has brought out to the devastating and just unfathomable crime that this is, that is hit, that is just like beyond comprehension, a worse nightmare, something so upsetting, two little girls who should still be here as women now. I guess I just think there are so many unanswered questions and we have been getting requests for you, Dr. John Matthias, my co-host, to just really help us understand so much. And I don't know where you want to begin tonight. I know I have my questions.

But is there a place you want to begin? Yes. I think there's a place I want to begin. And so this case has some personal resonance for me for a lot of reasons. I probably will get into that later as this case develops more. But it's had an emotional impact on me and probably many and other people. And part of my job, I think, is to figure out why it strikes such a deep nerve with myself and maybe other people. And I think there's a few lenses through which we can see this case that really have some roots in literally.

in the past. Greek tragedy is one of those, by the way. Another one is fairy tales. And I don't want to get in that tonight, but those are a couple of areas I want to explore because in many ways, I think that they provide kind of a useful framework for understanding the story. When I first heard when the story first broke, you and I were actually in a medical facility. And our son was, he was not yet born at that point, but you were undergoing an ultrasound to learn the gender of our child. And it was a very emotional moment. And I remember, I remember it was the same day. And it just, it's, that really hit home. It was really unfathomable. But one of the, you know, one of the things that the ironies is that it occurred in the small town called Delphi, Indiana. And for those of you who know about Greek tragedy would know that Delphi, in Greek tragedy, is the home of the shrine for oracles, the oracles in Greek literature

that essentially foresee the future and they communicate with the gods like Apollo to get divine information. And so I thought that was kind of a unique coincidence that this town is named Delphi and Delphi is sort of a religious-type site in Greek literature and specifically in the Greek, tragedy, Oedipus, Rex. And so I started thinking about that a little bit. And it occurred to me that

there's actually a lot of parallels between this Delphi case and the Greek tragedy, Oedipus Rex. And again, I'm not going to really talk about that too much tonight. It's something I want to talk about down the road. But one of the interesting things that happens in the Adipus trilogy and Antipus Rex specifically is that there's a murder. And the murder is unknown. Nobody knows who committed this murder. So Eipus Rex really is a murder mystery of sorts. It's probably the first murder mystery in Western literature. One of the main plot line is that they need to figure out who this murderer is. Otherwise, this plague, this plague, which has been devastating Thebes for many years, just rages on. And it's decimating the population of Thebes. And the only way they can uproot this

plague and figure out this plague is by discovering who the murderer of King Laeus is. And at the time, Oedipus is the king of Thebes. And of course, he vows he's going to do everything in his power to figure out who the murderer is so he can essentially save the people of Thebes. And the reason why this is relevant is because in Delphi, it's almost like there's a plague. You know, you and I have talked to some of the locals. And they all say the same thing. They say that their town has changed dramatically, that there's all this paranoia and fear and suspicion. and neighbors turning against neighbors and people leaving the town,

all because you have this murder, and for many, many years, nobody knew who committed this murder. And so I think you have this parallel with this great Greek tragedy, that you have this plague in this small town that happens to be named Delphi, right? Ironically, it's named Delphi, which is where the oracles are. and in order to solve this problem, justice needs to occur. And in Greek tragedy, you usually hear from the chorus. The chorus represents the community.

And the chorus is kind of the voice of reason, and they push the plot along. And there's a part in Oedipus Rex where the chorus says, who did this? We need to figure out who did this no matter what. And it reminds me a lot of when the Delta, the Indiana State Police held a press conference, and the chief of police got up and said, why Libby, why Abby, why Delphi? Right? It's a very similar type sentiment.

Like, we're going to pour all of our resources into this crime. It's so horrendous. And we're going to seek justice as much as we can because we want to know who did this and we want to know why they did it. And I think that's where I want to start. I want to start with that question. Why Libby?

Why? Abby, why Delphi? And I also want to start with this thought that hopefully if we can find a certain amount of justice in this case, then we can rid the town of this play of fear and uncertainty that's really been a very large part of that community for many years now. And I can't even imagine living in that community and dealing with all the paranoia and many of the things that the locals have talked about with us. And so I think that's one parallel that I think is really relevant. There's many others, by the way. We'll get to those later. On October 26, 2022, Richard Allen is arrested. And he's arrested because the law enforcement went back and reviewed some of their

notes. And they noticed that this person, Richard Allen, who had been interviewed not too long after the murders occurred, had mentioned that he was present. He was present in the area where the murders occurred. And so law enforcement thought it was important to bring him back in and to kind revisit that idea about Richard Allen. And there was some interesting evidence they found that eventually led to his arrest. And so I want to talk about some of the hearings in late July and what those mean and kind of the psychological elements of this crime and Richard Allen. and let me just say, let me give a disclaimer up front here, which is that you and I don't, the reason you're going to this trial is because we want to see the evidence.

There's a lot of uncertainty here about, in spite of the evidence against Richard Allen, I think there's a lot of uncertainty here about who did what and who the murderer is, right, and whether Odinism is involved, whether it was this, I don't remember if he's been convicted yet, but Keegan Klein, the person that had kind of a peripheral involvement in this case for a while and took over attention from the media, right? You've got all these players. And I think it's created a lot of uncertainty. It's created a lot of issues.

And none of it, by the way, if we think of Delphi as being kind of ravaged by this plague, like Thebes was in Greek society, none of this is helping to resolve that. The plague is not being lifted. It's still there, right? So I think it's important for us to consider. I think we're going to start with Richard Allen to consider some of the evidence that exists that implicates Richard Allen and why it's important. And again, I'm not saying it's Alan.

I don't know for sure. That's why you're going to this trial because you and I want to see the evidence and we want whatever justice looks like in this case. We want that we want justice to occur. We want that outcome. And we want, if possible, want to give the victims a voice. And the way we do that is just empirically by following the evidence and making sense of whatever we can make sense of. Exactly. Exactly. And I think that's

the question many people have. The defense has done a great job putting in seeds of doubt already with much of what they've shared. And at the same time, it's very, very compelling evidence that puts Richard Allen at this crime scene, one of the things, and so that's the theory, of course, of the state and the prosecution, that this horrendous crime, these crimes were done by Richard Allen. And I certainly have questions about that and what type of crime that makes this. I think many people are wondering, we have not heard a motive in this case. We have not heard if there's any connection to the victims. Right. And these are questions for a criminal psychologist. And we have not heard all of the evidence that the prosecution has or there are numerous witnesses, 50 plus witnesses. So there is a lot to be learned in this trial. That is going to be very, just completely lacking in transparency. And that is why we will do our best to bring you what we learn there. But for now, I think tonight, I want to take the theory of the prosecution of the state who has arrested and charged Richard Allen with murder tonight, if that's okay, and explore what that would mean and what that would mean this crime was, what the motive might be,

and your thoughts. But I also see that you have a lot prepared. I have no idea what John has prepared tonight. So yes, go ahead. Yeah, well, there's so much to cover. So I'm just going to jump in. So let's start with, let's talk about motive. And this is something that hasn't been covered. There's been a lot of speculation. But let me start with statistics. Let's start with, so this, this comes from homicide data from Britain. And some of this is from a very well-known study on homicide, probably one of the best-known studies. It's the reason why I'm using data from the UK is because they tend to keep statistics about homicides much more meticulously than we do in the U.S. But it's still a representative sample in terms of who commits homicides and why.

And so let's start with that. This is from a textbook called Understanding Homicide by its second edition, Fiona Brockman. It's a kind of a classic textbook in this area. So Brockman talks about philicide and she talks about that most child, so most child killings occur within a family-based context. But here's what she says about what she calls stranger killings of children. In other words,

killings where a stranger commits the murder and it's not based in the family. So a lot of children are killed by parents, step-parents, people that know the children, right? She says, quote, the killing of children by men with whom they have no connection is one that causes particular alarm

and fear. Stranger homicides differ in significant way from child homicides that occur within the family. Of the 23 cases of malperpetrated stranger child murders, six victims were killed during a terrorist attack, five were killed during a fight or brawl, four were killed during an arson attack, and three of the homicides were sexually motivated. Clearly, what the public perhaps fears most in terms of child murder, i.e. the abduction and sexual assault and murder of a child by a stranger, is very rare. What does this mean? If you look at the statistics on child homicides and you rule out family-based killings, which is most, the vast majority of children are killed within family context. If you look at stranger homicides, number one, they're extremely rare. But when they do occur,

the categories they fall into are terrorist attacks, that didn't happen here, fights or brawls, didn't happen here, arson attacks, not here, and more rarely sexually motivated homicides. So when you look at the statistics, that leaves you with one category and that's sexually motivated. So what is the motivation here? The evidence and the statistics, the research would suggest that this is sexually motivated. And not only that, we know, of course, that the victims were found. One of the victims was naked. They were both naked for some period of time.

And then one of the victims wore the clothing of the other victim. But we know they were naked. So if you know what the research says, which is, number one, these are very rare. Child homicides are rare, especially with strangers. But when they do occur, if you eliminate all the categories, you're left with one. In other words, I guess. you could argue. You could argue. It would be hard to argue this, I think, but you could argue that a stranger, let's not say it's Richard Allen, anybody, a stranger just decided for random

reason to go murder children on a particular day. Goes out for a walk on the Monon Highbridge Trail, sees a couple of kids, just decides to murder them because it would be somehow, maybe it's a total psychopath, maybe there's a certain sadistic pleasure. I don't know. That never happens. what happens is typically that person, whoever it is, goes out for a hike on the Monon High Bridge Trail, sees a couple of children as a sexual attraction or fantasies about children, in this case, young teenage females, and takes action to fulfill those fantasies, making it a sexual type homicide. The statistics are consistent with that. As far as I know, there's almost no cases of stranger child homicide where the, killer does it just for sadistic pleasure. If you're looking for motivation, the first motivation, based on the research and based on what we know of these types of crimes, has to be sexual. And if you look at the crime scene and the fact that these victims were both naked and not wearing clothing, at least for a portion of the time they were there, that would be consistent

with sexual motivations. Okay. So there you go. Evidence aside. just what research says about this type of crime. Right, right. We don't know exactly what has been said in these confessions, but of the 60 plus confessions, we don't have the exact number. It's been estimated that there's roughly 61, 6061, give or take, confessions.

From Richard Allen. From Richard Allen. While in custody after his arrest, just to explain. Of the confessions that Richard Allen has made, we know that at least some of those have references to sexual motivations. So again, that's consistent with the research we know about these types of crimes. It's consistent with the fact that you had a crime scene with two naked bodies for a certain

period of time, and it's consistent with some of the statements or confessions he has already made. So if you're looking for motive, the probability is that these were sexually motivated crimes. Yeah. Someone was saying they heard there was no evidence of essay, but that, I mean, just the fact that no, there absolutely is. They had been undressed. That alone is evidence of an essay. But you're not even there yet. But I just had to, sorry, got distracted by the chat, but that alone is evidence. But anyway, go ahead. We're not even talking about evidence yet. You're just talking

about research. Maybe there's a confusion there about essay versus assault, right? But we'll get into that. Yeah, the R word. We'll get rid of it. Yeah. We'll get into, yeah, we'll start with that. I think it's important. So whether this is Allen or not, Whoever committed these crimes, the research, the statistics would indicate a sexually motivated homicide. The crime scene would indicate that. I think that's what we're looking at here. As I said, it's entirely possible that maybe some random stranger or strangers, I guess, would, you could argue that maybe from the odinism perspective, that there's some type of sacrificial element. but honestly, like, most oninists aren't going to sacrifice children.

But let's, I don't want to get into that now. That's a different topic. Right, right. We'll stay focused. We're trying. There's so much. We're trying it so hard. Right, right.

So I think that's a good place to start. The other element, and I don't know if we should bring this in, but you've had some speculations of your own. Let's wait on that. Let's wait on that. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your

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Yeah, that's what that's what people talk about. That's a seed of doubt right there. No criminal record. We have talked to people. They say, well, he had no criminal record. You're telling me, a man in his 40s would just go out and do this without a criminal record. Right. He's had no criminal record. He's had no past. history of abuse. He's had no past history of crime or criminality, right? Like the question people ask me, and by the way, like there have been documentaries made about this particular, about Delphi, the Delphi murders where professionals, professional psychologists, forensic psychologists like myself, have made statements to that effect. They have said things like, well, he doesn't, Richard Allen doesn't have a criminal record. He has no history of violence. Ron Logan does. So I think Ron Logan's a better candidate for the perpetrator.

or they'll say he has no history of violence, therefore he couldn't have been violent. Let's talk about that. Yeah. It's because it's really important. It is. And again, for those of you that have not heard our backstory and you don't know maybe who Ron Logan is, go watch it after this and you'll understand everything. But go ahead, John.

Yeah, let's talk about it. Ron Logan. Okay. Here's the question. Is it possible to have someone commit such a violent crime with no previous history of violence? And the answer is yes. These are called out of the blue kill. You see them mostly in cases of domestic violence.

They're less common in cases involving children. And one of the reasons that's true, by the way, is because there just aren't enough statistics on these types of homicides. And there's way more data on interpersonal violence where men with no previous histories whatsoever, typically men, with no previous histories of violence, Well, for whatever reasons, the perception used to be that they would snap and murder their spouses or significant others. That's changed over time, by the way, with more research. But I'm going to read, this is from an article, so talking about out of the blue killings. This is an article called, probably can't see that. It's called Audit.

You know, put it right by your mic, focusing on your mic. Focus by my mic. Yeah, there you go. It's going to pick up the mic. It's called Out of the Blue, Men Who Murder an Intimate Partner. It's by Dobash and Dobash. Dobash has happened to be some researchers in the UK who have done some phenomenal research on these types of murders and in domestic violence in general.

But I want to read what they say about these types of murders. So they looked at two groups. They looked at what they called the no-convict group, meaning these are men that have no history of criminality. and they had another group called the Pre-Previous convict group or the Prev convict group. So they looked at two groups, and they wanted to know the differences. Here's what they say. The infliction of numerous injuries while in a state of anger or rage might suggest that the no-convict men just snapped due to some unusual set of circumstances and committed a, quote, sudden homicide.

However, the snap thesis is not supported. Nearly three quarters of these men had ongoing disputes within their relationships prior to the murder event, and there was very little difference between the two groups in terms of risky issues of jealousy, possessiveness, and or separation. Importantly, nearly half of the no-conflict group had previously used violence towards the victim, although they initially appeared to have no history of this offense. and this is the critical line here. This is the grand finale. Okay.

The finding that nearly half of these men had previously committed at least one act of violence against the women they kill, although this violence had gone unreported or undetected, means that they might be more accurately described as, quote, abuser-turned-murdered. This is really important. and the reason it's important is because men or let's say people in general who commit crimes. In this particular case, it applies to domestic violence. But in these crimes, and this would include children, where homicide appears to occur out of nowhere, with no previous history of violence, the fact of the matter is that in most of these cases,

there has been previous abuse. It just hasn't been reported. We're not aware of it. What happens when there's no previous history of violence? You get, quote, abusers turned murderers, unquote. That's really important. You might be saying, how does this apply to Richard Allen? All right, I'm going to tell you right now.

Okay. Listening. As far as I know, nobody has really talked about this. So this is important. Officers, this is from a report by Fox 59 in Indiana, November 1, 2022. This is shortly after he was arrested. Officers with the Carroll County Sheriff's Office were sent at around 3.30 a.m. on June 18th of 2015

to the home of Richard and Kathy Allen, according to records obtained by Fox 59. Sheriff Toby Leansby said, Alan, a dad of one and a CVS technician was allegedly drunk, and his wife took him to the hospital for a men. medical evaluation. According to the sheriff, responding deputies role during the incident was to, quote, keep the peace and no arrests or charges follow. Local sheriff's deputies responded to the home of accused killer Richard Allen over, quote, a domestic incident. Why is this important? Because this is

precisely the sort of thing you see with so-called out-of-the-blue killers. What's important here is that there was no arrest, there were no charges, so all of this disappeared. If they had arrested him and charged him, he would have a criminal record. The reason he doesn't is because the deputies, the officers who responded to this call, they thought it was minor and not worthy of their attention. They recommended that Kathy, Allen's wife, take him to the hospital for medical evaluation because he was deeply inebriated. What was the level of violence? We don't know.

How bad was it? How violent was he? We don't know. We know it was significant enough that somebody in that home, somebody in the Allen home, called the police for help. So does Richard Allen... Boom. There you go.

Does Richard Allen fit the profile of a, quote, abuser turned murderer? I don't know. We have this incident of domestic violence. And by the way, when you have one instance of domestic violence, it suggests there's strife and turmoil in that home that we have no idea about. It probably runs a lot deeper than we're aware of. Because for the police to respond to a domestic call, it takes a fairly significant incident.

I would love to know what that is. Unfortunately, there's no paperwork because he was never arrested. The only person who would tell us what happened would be Kathy, and I'm pretty sure she's not going to tell us. But the mere fact that police went to that home indicates that there was previous abuse, even though it wasn't charged, and that Alan potentially has some history of violence

that we're not aware of that nobody's talking about that's been overlooked and neglected. So is Alan like this perfect introverted, CVS, from us his technician that all his neighbors adore and that has no stripe at home,

nope, he's not that guy. And again, people are saying, people are saying, well, there are a lot of guys like this. We are talking about

an abuser turned murderer and the research and just saying and asking the question, would he fit that profile with the research you've just shared? Right.

So the question I get all the time is Alan couldn't have done it. He has no history of violence. Not true. he does have a history of violence. He just happened to be not charged with it. And he also happens to fit this profile of what we would call an out of the blue murderer, which is somebody with some previous history of domestic strife and abuse,

that then at some point becomes murder later on. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. We've covered a lot already that this would likely, according to the research, he's sexually motivated. And that, yes, yes. yes, do you necessarily need a criminal record to commit a crime like this? Not necessarily.

Nope, you don't. You absolutely don't. And I can amplify this narrative. I could run with this even further and say, well, we're going to deepen this a lot, by the way. I'm just, I'm still at the surface of our analysis here. But it's not hard to imagine a guy like Richard Allen having, for whatever reasons having sexual fantasies about young teenagers, young female teenagers. And one scenario I could develop, and this is speculation, but it's consistent with sexual motivations is, but let's just say hypothetically, that Richard Allen's daughter was entering puberty and adolescence, and perhaps he was already, maybe he already had some attractions to young female

adolescents and as his daughter was in that age range it may have heightened or amplified those fantasies and obviously his daughter would be taboo I think most people would know that

including Richard Allen but the fantasies continued the fantasies for whatever reasons they probably continued they escalated it's not hard to imagine somebody like Alan really struggling

with these fantasies and almost to the point where they could have become a type of obsession. And it gets to the point like Coburger, for example, that Coburger seems clearly a case of someone who had some obsessive compulsive features. Coburger had that. And again, Coburger is also just charged, but yes. Yeah, also charged. Koeberger felt some need to act on those fantasies, those obsessions,

in order to reduce the anxiety he was experiencing, if it is Koeberger. And same thing here. So you would imagine, so somebody with no previous record, although he could have a record, he doesn't because he wasn't charged, somebody with no previous record of violence, there's some family conflicts, family strife, right?

He's, for whatever reasons, he's developing these fantasies. They're probably at some point becoming overpowering. There's probably a triggering event in here. I don't know what that is. If I had to guess, it might have something to do with his daughter. I would speculate that there might have been some type of fight or falling out with his daughter,

and I'll get into that more later. Okay. And he, for whatever reasons, I don't know if he knew that Libby and Abby were going to be on the Monon High Bridge Trail that day. I'm not sure if there's any connections there. It doesn't necessarily have to be. There could have been some trigger that brought him. He knew that school was out that day, February 13th.

He knew that there might be kids on the bridge because kids, when school's out, they go over to the Monon Bridge High Trail. And he went there armed. He went there. We know he went there with a gun and a box cutter, potentially. And allegedly, he went there with those weapons. He may have just been looking to see if there were any victims that he could, you know, could have been opportunistic. He may not have had these specific victims in mind. but he may have had the idea of acting on his fantasies in mind when he went to the trail that day,

maybe perhaps hoping that he could corner a couple of victims into, as he says down the hill, that he can corner them at the end of the bridge, pushed them down the hill into a remote area, and then take advantage of them. And this theory is compelling to me, but it also answers, I think, another question that is, asked a lot when it comes to this case, which is what would the motive be? And could this be a crime of opportunity or would he have to know the victims? I think trying to understand, many people are asking, you know, is Richard Allen's daughter the same age? No, she's not. She was a young adult when this happened in her early 20s. Yeah. So the question is, did he need to have a connection

to them? Or could this have been, okay, you're already shaking your head. Could this have been a crime of opportunity? Does there need to be a connection between Richard Allen and Abby and Libby? No, no. I mean, there might be. We don't know. This is where law enforcement really needs to look under every rock, you know. Did he know, is it possible?

He knew, you know, he must have known that school was out. Did he know that they or some young adolescent females were going to be on the Monon High Bridge trial that day? I mean, he probably suspected it. did he know that those two victims specifically were there? I don't know. But it doesn't really, it doesn't have to be that he knows. It simply has to be that what has to occur is that for whatever reasons, for whatever triggering or event occurs,

that he wants to have there and see if he can take advantage of a situation that might develop, he wants to find an opportunity potentially to corner probably one young, girl. It happened to be two. I don't necessarily think he intended that. But I think his goal is to act on his sexual fantasies. And in that sense, on that particular day, he appears to be more of a predator. He's going out there with this desire to fulfill these fantasies he's probably had for years. And speaking to that, by the way, in his interview, in his interview with police, Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the Internet,

and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers, spammers, even stalkers. It's why you get endless robocalls and why ads seem to follow you everywhere. That's where ORA comes in. ORA actively removes your data from broker sites and keeps it off. They also instantly alert you if your information shows up in a breach or on the dark web. But ORA goes beyond data protection. With one app, you get a VPN, antivirus, password manager, spam call protection, dark web monitoring, and even up to $5 million in identity theft

insurance, all backed by 24-7 U.S.-based fraud support. Other companies might sell just credit monitoring or just a VPN. ORA gives you all of it, together, at the same price competitors charge for just one service. Start your free trial today at aura.com slash remove. Protect yourself now at ora.com slash remove. They asked him why. So he says, he says quite explicitly in the probable cause statement that he's there, he's on the trail, he's on the bridge, he acknowledges he's on the bridge. And not only that, but at least three other people, three other hikers that day,

adolescents, by the way, who were out of school, they saw him and identified him too as bridge guy. okay but this is fascinating and this is a little tidbit that nobody's talked about and that is they asked the police asked him well okay you you went out on the monon high bridge where people saw him going out at least 50 feet under the bridge obviously he went across it but they asked him why were you up there you know what he said to that you know what his response to why he was on the bridge because, quote, he wanted to, quote, watch the fish. Quite high. Yeah.

Like, let's think about that statement for a second, right? Like, first of all, the bridge is so high that you're not going to see any fish. It's a nonsensical statement. It's, right? It's just one of those little pieces that if you're looking for, if you want to, if you want to try to exonerate Richard Allen and you hear a statement like that, you're thinking, okay, well, that clearly that's not why he was on that bridge. He's not on that bridge to what?

So what? He's got, he has a Zen moment where he's like, I got to go meditate and watch the fish on a bridge that if I fall from, I die because that's super relaxing, right? Like, I can't wait to get up there and see these little fishies from, I don't know, 100 feet, 80 feet up, right? Like, come on. The bridge is falling apart. It's collapsing.

And he's going up there to do like a little Zen retreat. so we can watch the fish. Does that make any sense to anyone? Not to me. I mean, if he was down below, if he was down below and enjoyed the fish and then just came up for a nice walk. Right. He's not.

He's not below. He's on the bridge. He says he's on the bridge. Also, what's run with the probable cause? His car is parked. People notice his car is parked by an old Child Protective Services Building, which isn't typically you. to access to Monon High Bridge Trail.

Not only is his car parked there, which is out of the way, but his car is parked in such a way that he's trying to obstruct his license plates so people can't see whose car that belongs to. How do we know this? Because a couple of witnesses saw his car there, and they pulled video showing that his car pulled in there and parked in a peculiar way. So that's unusual, right?

He's parking his car in a place that nobody parks to get on the trail, and the bridge, and he's trying to obscure his car. He's trying to hide the license plate. So he's hiding something. Maybe it's part of the whole Zen, I want to watch fish thing, and I don't want people to know I'm here. I don't know. I don't think people at CVS are going to really care

if he's parked in the actual parking place for the Monon Bridge High Trail. But I don't know, who knows, whatever. So those are all peculiarities. Yeah. That's all evidence, right? And so, I mean, another piece of evidence is that around the time, presumably around the time of when the murders occurred shortly after, within 30 minutes after the murders, somebody on the highway observes a man who's bloody and wet and sweating, exiting from the woods onto the road. He looks disheveled. He looks like he's in a hurry.

The person, the witness, the eyewitness identifies that person as bridge guy. Obviously doesn't know it's Richard Allen, but says that's exactly. the guy. He's wearing that jacket. He's wearing those jeans. That's who I saw bloody and exiting the woods. So there's there's multiple eyewitnesses here. So I don't know. Yeah, no, multiple. I know. And they will be witnesses in trial. Right. Exactly. So we'll, we'll learn from them. We'll see what they have to say. Is all of this definitive proof that he committed these murders? No, it isn't. It's still circumstantial. Yeah. But we're just, we're still just scratching the surface here. Right. Who knows what we'll learn in court. But it's interesting.

And I think these are the simply, I think these have what you are sharing has never really been discussed when it comes to this case. And so I appreciate you sharing all of this. For those wondering about both sides, you can go to our backstory. We are discussing the arrest of Richard Allen in answering many questions that many people have asked with all of the documentaries, with All of the profiling with all of the ideas or understanding what the research shows, what the evidence may show. Yeah. And so much of this is, yeah, this is all in the motions.

It is all in the motions, all of this. That stuff's in the probable cause statement, as is the 40 caliber, the 40 caliber unspent round, which let's just throw that in, like more evidence, right? There's a 40 caliber unspent round that matches precisely Richard Allen's gun. which police confiscate. They find it in his home years later. They test the bullet, test the gun. The Sig Sauer model P-226.

He's owned the gun since 2001. He's the only one who's had access to the gun ever. He acknowledges that in his interview. Of course, there's always defenses for why that bullet isn't from his gun, but that's not what ballistics found when they tested it. So you have a bullet from... Allen's gun suggesting that, which by the way, in the video recording of Bridge Guy, where he says, guys down the hill, one of the victims, I don't remember which one,

I think it might have been Abby, Abby says gun. She sees a gun. She says gun, right? The person has a gun. There's video evidence of whoever the bridge guy is, that person has a gun. And then there's a 40 caliber unspent round found between the two bodies at the crime scene that matches Allen's, Richard Allen's

gun. Right. And of course, I'm sure we'll hear defense witnesses sharing that it's sketchy whether it matches or not. But... You'll hear defense witnesses arguing that, and since you and I have talked to defense attorneys, we know what they're going to say.

Right, right. They're going to argue that's a common gun, that it could have matched any of them, that everybody in Delphi has that gun. That's what they're going to tell you. They're going to tell you, by the way, about Bridge Guy who bridge guy happens to look exactly like Richard Allen, but they're going to tell you that everybody in Delphi and Indiana and everybody in Indiana in general looks exactly like Richard Allen.

So bridge guy could be anyone, right? I'm sure, I hope and presume that the prosecution will have voice recognition people look at the audio. They're going to have facial recognition people look at his facial features in the video, right? I don't know. We don't know. We don't know.

We don't know. Maybe there's not sufficient footage to do that, but I think it'll be fascinating to see whether a voice and facial recognition people show up. I mean, just with AI in general, you'd think that they could get some composite. I mean, they obviously came up with the sketches, but I hope they're going to do more with that. Yeah. This education is very appropriate for those asking. It might not be appropriate for you. So trigger warning, if you don't like this conversation, we recommend not listening.

but it is an appropriate conversation that we are having right now. Oh, let me mention another little factoid that nobody's talking about. A pair, you ready for this? So this is an improbable cause. A pair of underwear from one of the victims was missing from the crime scene, as was a sock. So think about that. Of all the articles of clothing you could steal, the person, the perpetrators, takes some underwear. That would be more evidence that this was a,

sexually motivated crime, right? Whoever it is, he's taking the underwear as a type of reminder, trophy, momentum, right? It's consistent with someone who would commit this type of crime. Yeah, that's like what we know. I have so many questions. I'm sure I'm stirring the pot a little here, but you are. You are stirring the pot. But some people, yes, you are stirring the pot. You are delving into a theory with the evidence that the prosecution is laid out. And Richard Allen is. is behind bars and a lot of people are trying to process if he even fits a profile. But you're saying he could.

He could fit a profile. And if he did fit this profile, what would be the motive? And what are what is some of the evidence? Right. I'm saying that if you don't think he fits the profile, then you haven't thought enough about this case. Yes. Right.

I mean, people in my profession are saying he doesn't fit the profile. But I'm not sure they're aware of, I don't know. I'm not sure they're aware of the fact that there's plenty of murders committed where there's previous criminal activity that's never reported or detected. Number one, and number two, I've worked with sex offenders for years. I've done groups for hundreds of sex offenders. Sex offenders will have fantasies for years and years and years and years and not act on them until there's some triggering event.

They will not have criminal records. That doesn't mean that they're not capable of committing that crime. If you get to the fact that the motivation here was sexual, then that's all you need. But you have more than that. You have the domestic violence incident that's essentially swept under the rug. Okay.

Why is this important, by the way? I'm going to go back to the plague in Thebes with Oedipus. That in order to get to justice, we have to deal with the facts, right? We have to deal with the evidence. The reason why Odenism is not being presented in this case, at least not so far.

Maybe they'll convince the judge. is because there's no evidence tying the odinists to the crime scene whatsoever. There's no eyewitnesses that see them there. There's no cell phone data placing them there, right? That's a problem. If you're going to point the figure at odinists, you better be able to figure out how to put them near the crime scene. Yeah.

What about the question? I want to ask a question. One of the defense's arguments is how could, Richard Allen is only 5-5. Probably similar height. You know what? Forgive me. I don't know how tall Abby and Libby were at the time of this crime.

So I'm not even going to speculate there. But he is not a tall man. And there were two of them. What about the people who say, could he have really pulled this off himself? I'll tell you, if you're not large physically, and you're not going to overpower human beings, I'll tell you how to do it.

You level the playing field with a gun. when he's on the bridge and one of the victims says gun, the whole equation changes. Those victims, when they know that the bridge guy is carrying a gun, it doesn't matter how big he is. It doesn't matter his physical stature. He has a gun. Yeah.

If I'm out, I don't know, if I'm at the grocery store and I run into a 12-year-old that, you know, is much smaller in stature than I am and he pulls a gun on me, I'm not going to try to overpower him, right? So it doesn't physical, I hear you, it's a silly argument because weapons level the plane field. Weapons mean that whoever has the weapon has power. The person with the gun is in control, not the bigger person.

Yeah, true. Even if the smallest person had the gun. You know, there's a lot of confusing things about the crime scene, particularly, and this is where some of the ritualistic stuff comes in. Libby is undressed. Abby is dressed, but in Libby's clothes. It looks like they might have been staged. Would this fit a profile of this type of crime?

And of course, this is, you know, an explanation of perhaps something ritualistic. Of course, that's the defenses, or was the defense's theory, you know, they're not necessarily going to be able to share this theory in court. But. Well, first of all, their expert wasn't particularly. qualified. Their expert was impeached very strongly by the prosecution.

Sure. Let's talk about the clothing. Let's talk about the clothing. What does that mean? What does that mean to have, you know, one victim is undressed in the other is in the other victim's clothing? It's hard to say. I think that, I think here's what we can assume. Here's what we can, I think we can read some conclusions about what happened. Number one, he had the victims undress.

That's clear because at some point they both had to be naked. In order for one victim to put on the other victim's clothes, they had to both be naked at some point. I think the reason he had them undressed is because he didn't want them to run. There's a lot of reasons you would have victims undress. Some of it is to create shame that if a victim is naked in the woods and defenseless and feeling a lot of shame or would be naked, they're less likely to attack you or run or take action against.

you. So he's doing this for multiple reasons. One, he's trying to disarm the victims. He's trying to get them defenseless and afraid and ashamed so that they're helpless. That's number one. Number two, he's also doing it for the sexual reasons I mentioned. So having the victims undress, it accomplishes multiple goals for the perpetrator. Those are the goals. He's trying to fulfill a sexual fantasy, and he's also trying to get the victims in a state of dependency or helplessness so that they won't fight back and they won't run. And of course, the gun helps that too. But, you know, as to why the other one put on clothes, that's hard to determine. Can I share a story that was shared in our channel really quickly? I have it up. And I don't know if that interrupts you though,

but I want you to know that I have, and maybe we share it at the end, but I want you to know that I have a story from a victim who survived a crime. We can share it later if you want. Yeah, why don't we share it later? Okay. Of course, you know, I have a lot of questions. I'm going there to learn both sides and to understand what evidence the prosecution really has, what evidence the defense really has. So little transparency, so much to learn. This has been brought up a lot and it's a theory of mine and actually has been a theory of mine since the day Richard Allen was arrested in October of 2022. I went live actually and discussed this theory and others have already brought it up tonight.

But Richard Allen is a father. He has an adult daughter. And at the time of the crime, his daughter, I think she was roughly 24. Don't quote me on that, ish, I think. And I think she was early 20s, yeah. And from the pictures that were online, it was actually quickly brought up after the arrest of Richard Allen that, And of course, this is an opinion, and people will disagree.

But in my opinion, as well as blonde granny and others, Libby resembles Richard Allen's daughter. I, it is my opinion, that there's quite a stark resemblance. Could this, as a criminal psychologist, can I ask you, could this play into a theory or a motive of what you're sharing about Richard Allen? Well, this is wild speculation here, but I know this has been your theory and it's interesting. And it's my question and many others. So I just want to know. I just want to know, is this a thing? Is this something? Let's go back to, I want to go back to the Greek tragedy, Oedipus Rex here, which has incest as the primary motivation. One of the primary motivations for the plague. Again, I said there's a lot of similarities. I think it's a really interesting idea in the sense that if, and this is a big if, but if that's accurate that there is this physical similarity,

and if there are, and again, this is a big if, if there are, let's say, incestuous fantasies about his daughter, and again, I'm not saying there are, but I think that scenario is it could potentially create some desire to act those fantasies out elsewhere. In other words, as I mentioned earlier, obviously incest is taboo in every culture. And so there would be no, you know, I presume, I mean, don't get me wrong, I deal with incest cases all the time, by the way. So clearly, incest happens a lot. But he has one daughter. I don't think it's going to happen in the home.

I don't know. I mean, maybe, and again, this is wild speculation. I could imagine a scenario where let's just say for the sake of argument, not even talking about Richard Allen here, but where somebody has these incestuous fantasies towards a daughter and perhaps that person flirts with the idea of acting on those fantasies and gets rejected, there could be a lot of anger around that and there could be some desire to displace that anger elsewhere. Fantasies aren't going away. So now you have this situation where there's these incestuous fantasies and maybe there's some attempt to act on them and it's, you know, thwarted.

And now you have all this anger underlying all of that. Or maybe you have anger because he feels like he can act on those fantasies. And again, I'm not talking about Alan. I'm just talking about somebody in Alan's shoes, right, that maybe somebody has a similar situation. I've worked with sex offenders who have done similar things that they've had incestuous fantasies that they couldn't act on. So they've found other ways.

to act out those fantasies on other types of victims. They displace. And let me remind you, Dr. John, you've been doing this for nearly three decades, and you work with sex offenders more than any other type of criminal. So that is why I wanted to ask you this. And so for those that this is a difficult conversation, this is an expert in this. So thank you for sharing your thoughts.

I've worked with hundreds of sex offenders. I've done hundreds of psychosexual evaluations on sex offender. there's where I do is to assess risk and motivation. And so, yeah, this is totally up my alley. Yeah. And, you know, we have a lot of new people here tonight, too. And I guess we didn't really officially give you an intro. But you can find Dr. John's bio, I believe in the description of this video. If it's not fully there, he's spent 30 years as a clinical antifranchise psychologist.

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dark web monitoring, and even up to $5 million in identity theft insurance, all backed by 24-7 U.S.-based fraud support. Other companies might sell just credit monitoring or just a VPN. ORA gives you all of it, together, at the same price competitors charge for just one service. Start your free trial today at aura.com slash remove. Protect yourself now at aura.com slash remove. And what you just shared, he has worked with many different types of criminals, but more sex offenders than any other. Your idea, by the way, let me just clarify, like, I'm not saying, I'm not saying definitively that he's having these incestuous fantasies. I think it's much more likely

that there might be some attraction to adolescent females, and the fantasies are probably around that rather than around his daughter. But is it possible? I mean, sure, it's possible. I've worked with a lot of incest offenders over the years, and it happens. It's a reality. I mean, yeah, well, and you've helped me answer a lot of my questions, and I think just to understand, yeah, we've watched everything on this case, and so you've answered a lot of these questions that nobody has ever breached these subjects, like to thank you. Yeah, that's where we're doing this. We wouldn't be doing this if we didn't feel we could have value. And I'm sure a lot of people who have made up their minds on this case that are probably going to disagree.

but this is, you know, this is my perspective right now. As the evidence is presented, things could change drastically. I'm open to that. Yeah. You know, I love actually a lot of the chat. I love the people, you know, some people are saying that they're not convinced that Ron Logan wasn't the perpetrator. Understandably, even that one confused me.

I mean, switching your alibi. Anything you want to say about Ron Logan? Like, I think the reason why people gravitated towards. Ron Logan initially is because he did have a history of violence. And he did have a history, you know, he had a history of domestic violence. He had a history of, I think, to a lesser degree, sexual assault. I don't think he was convicted of any sex crimes. But, but I think it's easy to look at a guy like Logan and say that, you know, because of his violent past, that he seems to fit the profile more. But keep in mind that Logan, there's no evidence whatsoever that

Logan had any interest in adolescent females. His crimes were with adult females, an ex-girlfriend. And I don't know. I mean, you know, also from years and years of forensic work, I can say that age is a mitigating factor. It reduces risk of crime. Like, it doesn't matter what the crime is. Sex crimes, violent crimes. As you age, your risk goes down dramatically.

You just don't have the same libido. You don't have the same aggressive. drives. You don't, it's just, you don't see, you don't typically see it happens, but you don't typically see offenders, violent offenders that are Logan's age, which is, he would have been in his 70s when these crimes were committed. Like, again, yes, it's possible, but, you know, bridge guy does not look like an older man. Bridge guy looks like a middle-aged man. And so Logan has some history of violence. That's consistent with someone who would commit a crime like this. but the other side of that is that his older age would be, it would reduce his risk.

It would kind of lead you away from someone like Logan because you don't typically see this type of extreme violence being committed by a male in his 70s. I want to talk about the lack of DNA at the crime scene and most specific, more specifically, the lack of the idea that there was an assault, a sexual assault. Can you talk about that and explain that that doesn't mean an absence of assault or your thoughts on that? Because that's a confusing thing to many people too. Yeah, let's define what we mean by an assault. And there's certain terms we can't use here because of YouTube.

So, right? You can call it R. So if in an autopsy, there's no evidence. evidence of R. That doesn't mean that there wasn't some attempt at that. That a sex crime can be a sex crime without any intercourse, without any penetration, right? Like, I know this is going to be confusing to people, but you can charge people with assault without R, without any actual assault occurring in the sense that if you force someone to get naked and your intents, your intentions are sexual, if you grope that person, if you touch them, if you fondle them,

that's all a version of assault. None of that is going to show up in an AR kit. None of that is going to show up in an autopsy or a forensic examination. So to be charged with an assault of a sexual nature, it doesn't require that someone is brutally assaulted. It just requires that there are behaviors of a sexual nature that are occurring and that those are occurring to fulfill that offenders' fantasies

or their salacious intentions, right? Like it's, I think when most people think of assault, they think they just picture like, you know, you watch Netflix, we watch Netflix documentaries or movies and we think, oh, the assault is always the worst, most brutal kind, but that's not really true. It's more about consent and forcing someone to do something they don't want. And that could be as simple as having a 13-year-old take their clothes off and fondling them.

That's a sex crime. You're doing that against their will, right? You're doing it without consent. You're kidnapping them, essentially, and you're doing it for sexual reasons with sexual intent. That's a song. Is that going to show up in an autopsy? Nope, it won't. That doesn't mean that it wasn't a sexual crime. It was a sexual crime. Thank you.

I think those are most of my questions tonight. I want everyone to know here in chat that I will keep a very, very open mind during this trial. And I don't know. I am ready for different theories and different evidence and different witnesses to take over my mind and make me think and I remain open to everything I'm going to learn at the trial and I will let all of you know everything I learn at the courtroom. Yeah, we haven't even touched on the confessions by the way because the confessions are going to be the heart of this case. But I don't know if we need to. I don't know if we have time, but we have time. In addition to all

the evidence we've discussed, I'm sure most people are aware of the fact that Richard Allen has now made at least 60 confessions. One of the witnesses that testified back in late July, his name's Brian Harshman. He's with the Indiana State Police. He's been there for over 25 years. And his job was to essentially examine and vet over 650 calls made by Richard Allen. And his job was to see if there was any material evidence on there that could be used

or anything relevant to the case. And there were at least estimates are 60 plus confessions. And when I say confessions, I mean, there's a difference between an incriminating statement and a confession. A confession is someone who says, I did, I committed this crime. An incriminating statement is something that implies the crime was committed. So it's more indirect, right? 60 confessions in addition to many more incriminating statements.

right? And you know, you and I have talked to them to defense attorneys and they say, well, the confessions were coerced. He was held in solitary confinement. He was psychotic. These confessions don't make any sense. Yeah, that's part of our backstory. Well, it's confusing. I don't know. It's confusing. Yeah, let's clarify that. So they weren't coerced. How do you know? Because I listened to the testimony. I listened to the evidence that they weren't coerced because he wasn't being interrogated. He willingly made these statements. I see what you're saying. If you throw him in a room and you tell him he can't go to the bathroom for 60 hours, right, that's coercion.

None of that happened here. Just had nothing to do with interrogation. This was all about him voluntarily making statements about what he did. And that's precisely why the judge allowed all of these confessions into trial. So there's a couple of important issues about these confessions, I think, to talk about. the most important is that I'll mention some dates here on March 21st we know the exact date March 21st 2023 so roughly six months after he's arrested he reported at that time that he had found God and Jesus he was so enamored by this change of heart that he was trying to give up Bibles to other inmates

he was yes talking about this all the time so one of the things we learned from the testimony was in late July this is his biggest concern was his family. He was very concerned that his family wouldn't love him anymore if they learned what he did and if he acknowledged it. But presumably one of the reasons that he converted to Christianity and found God and Jesus is because he wanted redemption. He wanted to be forgiven for these horrible sins and for these crimes he committed so that he could in the afterlife be with his family. That's what mattered to him more than anything. And in that sense, I think these confessions are very real because his motivation is real.

He wants to be with his family. That's the thing that matters the most to him. And by confessing, he feels like he's at least asking for some level of forgiveness for his sins, for his crimes. And he hopes that, I presume, he hopes that not only God, but his family will forgive him and that he will see them again. Because presumably he's thinking that if he's convicted of these murders or if even if he confesses that he'll never be released from prison again.

So the only way he can be with his family is in the afterlife. And hence one of the reasons I think he converted to Christianity. And of course, we haven't heard these confessions. This is what the prosecution is saying. So when you said, because of the, we know this because of the evidence, the prosecutions, we haven't seen the evidence yet. They're claiming this in a timeline. I just want to clarify that.

Yeah, yeah. So this guy, Brian Harshman, this detective Brian Harshman, talked a lot about the confessions. He didn't, we didn't hear any specific confessions. I think one of the reasons you're going is because we want to hear them. Right. So this is what they're saying, but we have yet to hear them. And this is why I'm reason I want to go. I want to know if this is, if this is accurate, right?

If this is accurate. Because the defense has a completely different story with the confessions and a completely different timeline. But yeah, go ahead. But, I mean, we have a preview of what the defense is going to say. They're arguing that Alan was in these inhospitable conditions, that he was psychotic, right? And all of that's going to be relevant. I mean, you're going to see a version of all this in more depth in the trial.

And so in that sense, I think it'll be really fascinating to see the evidence and to hear the confessions. One of the problems with the confessions, so I'll say this, one of the, that many people are already kind of pointing out that a lot of these confessions seem to be contradictory. and my response to that is that these confessions were happening all over the place. Like he had these inmates would watch him because he was self-harming. So he had, they were called companion inmates that would watch him. They would stand outside of his door and pay attention to whether he was safe and whether he was trying to harm himself. So when they would see him, if he made a confession or said something,

they would write it down. So they have these paper on the doors, and they're making a record on the door. And so they would write them down on the door letters. And there's audio, there's video. There's like, you have, he's saying things to guards, which then they make notes of that. In other words, like, you have all these different mediums

and formats where these confessions are occurring. And so I think when you have 60 confessions, some are audio, some are video, some are written, right? Some are things guards heard. Some are things inmates heard. I think you're going to get conflicting statements. Because, you know, an inmate may hear something slightly different. An inmate may hear, oh, he said he shot him.

Someone else, right? Like, the problem with getting so many confessions, I mean, on the one hand, for the prosecution, it's, you know, it's a bounty because you have a guy who just can't stop confessing, right? Which is a nightmare for a defense attorney. But on the other hand, you have all these confessions in all these different formats. And the defense is probably going to say, well, he said this here, he said this here, these contradict each other. They don't really.

I think it's just, it's a question of translating what was said into the proper medium so that we can make sense of it. It's a matter of interpretation, right? And so on the one hand, 60 plus confessions is powerful. It's going to be powerful evidence. On the other hand, it could be a little confusing because, you know, the guard that Alan, there's a guard, for example, that he pulled aside. and said, hey, I'm sorry, I did this essentially. How did the guard note that?

What did the guard say in his record, right? Like, those things make it potentially confusing because the guard may have misinterpreted it or maybe one of the inmates that was watching him heard him say that he shot them. And maybe that's not what he said. I don't know. But I think that's an interesting component of this.

But I don't think there's any doubt, though, that the confessions were motivated by true intent, which was to tell the truth and to seek redemption for what he would did. I can't think of a more compelling confession than that type of confession. That's the furthest thing from being coerced. And on that issue, by the way, this is a really fascinating part of this case, by the way. So you have all these confessions, and this is another important date. On April 4th, 2023, which is get ready for this.

April 4th, 2020, so he converts to Christianity on March 21st, 2023. several weeks later, he has several visits from his attorney, and he receives all of the legal discovery in his case, in other words, the evidence that they have against him, that's on April 4th, no, April 3rd is the day that he gets to discovery, and somehow during that week, he's also meeting with his attorneys, and then on April 4th, literally the day after he gets the discovery, he starts acting out, he starts acting psychotic. that's when these bizarre behaviors start. Okay.

All the delusions and the psychosis and all this bizarre behavior, there's documentation that he was rubbing himself with his feces. Yeah, yeah. He was banging his head to the point of bleeding against the walls and his prison cell. Yeah. But think about, now, as a forensic person, let's say I'm going into this prison to evaluate Richard Allen.

I'm not, by the way, but hypothetically, if you tell me, if you have no documentation of any bizarre behavior until the day that he gets the discovery and meets with his attorney, I'm going to flag that. That is not what you want to see. In other words, you don't flip a switch and become psychotic after you learn that the evidence against you is compelling and damning. That's what he seems to do. And that's consistent. So that suggests no lingerie.

Oh. That's consistent, by the way, with the fact. that of the guards and the inmates who watched them, that the report from the prison is that eight out of ten of the guards. So 80% of the people that watched him, they all thought he was faking. Dr. Monica Walla, who's his psychologist, had serious reservations about whether he was faking. So he would remember some things and not,

he had very inconsistent memories of what was occurring. And that's, you know, that's potential malignoring. So you have the defense saying, he was clearly psychotic. These confessions have no meaning. But on the other hand, the other side of that is you have a date when he seems to literally change his behavior from normal to psychotic. You have all these people in the guards, the prison psychologist are all saying, I don't know, this is a little suspect. This looks like faking to me.

And not only that, his confessions, even more importantly, his confessions had a lot of details that only the killer would know. If he was psychotic, he wouldn't know those details. Because when you're psychotic, you're divorced from reality, essentially. Like you have no capacity to be oriented to the present. So it's highly unlikely that he would know those details if he was truly psychotic. In spite of the fact that he was showing these psychotic symptoms, he was placed on antipsychotic medication and it did seem to help him. But it's really hard to sort this out because this is a guy who clearly is going to benefit.

The other problem here, by the way, is an inmate who's in solitary confinement and exhibits symptoms of psychosis, typically is they change environments. They're moved out of solitary if they're psychotic. So that's another potential benefit he gets by being psychotic. So I understand. So today it came out. I mean, it's odd. You know, here we are in jury selection.

And yet we already had almost like a mini opening statement. It's bizarre. But the defense and prosecution have essentially shared their points that they're going to make. Some basic points they're going to make. And the defense has shared that some of the confessions might differ than what actually happened. Again, there are 61 confessions. Diana Storm is pointing this out as well as others in chat.

For example, we already covered this one, but one of them says that he did are the girls. And there's no evidence of R, but we already went over that. So that's irrelevant. Right, it depends on you to find R. He probably did. I'm sure he probably did. He just didn't do it in the way that you would expect. Another one is that he buried them in a shallow grave,

but of course twigs and sticks could be that. But then they get a little bit more confusing to me. Like I can like, those ones aren't that big of a deal to me. I'm like, well, yeah, I mean, and then there's, he shot them. That seems odd. but again there was a gun there was a bullet found this one also came out and it's a little bit more confusing for me to understand and you can go over all of these these details that many of the confessions have that that seemed to confuse us this one was that he like killed his whole family

or something like that that one came out today as well why would some of his confessions according to the defense today we're we are learning this today this is fresh off the news bus. You know, the defense is doing a great job, planting seeds of doubt. Okay. I'm going to break it down for you. Okay. This is really important.

So I'm going to explain what's going on. Okay. Thank you. This is a really unique case in the sense that you have a guy who can't stop confessing. You have a guy that wants to be honest and vulnerable and tell the truth. He's converted to Christianity. He wants to be with his family. That's on the one hand, right?

Then on the other hand, hand, you have a guy whose attorneys are telling him, shut up, don't talk. He's seen the discovery. He's seen the evidence against him. It's damning. He knows that they found the bullet from his gun, right? So he's got, on the one hand, he wants to confess. He wants to save his soul. On the other hand, he's got people saying, don't talk, including his family, by the way. So he starts confessing to his family and essentially his wife and his mother and his family members say, don't stop. Stop. confessing, don't talk. I don't want to hear it. His family is shutting him down, which is the reason by he starts confessing in roughly late March, early April, and then he stops by like roughly July.

I mean, there are some confessions that go over into 2024, but basically by mid-July, he shut down his confessions because his family is not receptive. So here's the problem. You have a guy who wants to be open and vulnerable and honest about what happened, but he's he's getting advice from other people not to. It's creating a tremendous amount of turmoil. You have this common, I've never seen this combination. So you have this combination of somebody wants to confess, but they're engaging in self-harm.

They're probably feeling a tremendous amount of guilt and shame. They're malingering maybe to some degree here or there. They're faking, right? They're engaging in this masochistic behavior. Like, I think you could explain part of the psychosis and part of the contradictions and part of the inconsisties and confessions by the fact that this guy is in tremendous turmoil. There's tremendous inner conflict.

There's this approach avoidance stance going on with Richard Allen where let's think of it as his mind is deeply divided, where he wants to be honest and tell the truth, but he can't be. He's pulled away from that by his family and his attorneys, and it's just, it's ripping him apart. And I think by the way, that is one of the reasons. So somebody like that, somebody who's torn apart by these contradictory impulses, it's possible to, in that circumstance, to show some symptoms of psychosis. It's possible in that circumstance to make contradictory statements about your confession, to confess in contradictory ways because you're still trying to process it. He doesn't

know what he's supposed to do. He wants to do the right thing and confess, but he's told he can't. And his family in particular. So one of the things that the psychologist said is that he saw this as a choice between, as a choice between God and his family. And he chose his family. So at some point, all that stuff with the conversion, that gets thrown out the window. Because his family is not encouraging him to be open and vulnerable and honest about what he did. So this is a guy who I think at some level is really torn apart. He's ripped apart by this. And he doesn't know what to do.

And to make matters even more complicated, the psychologist, Monica Walla, she mentioned, she said this wasn't a diagnosis, but she mentioned that Richard Allen seems to have something like dependent personality disorder. For those who don't know what dependent personality, I've had cases, by the way. I've had criminals with dependent personality disorder. and it's really interesting because dependent personality, the best way I can describe penant personality disorder is someone who is the ultimate people pleaser.

Someone who they have an excessive need to be taken care of. They do not want someone to leave at any cost. In this cluster of personality disorders, there's a personality disorder called avoidant personality disorder. And those people tend to avoid people, just like it says, right? Like, think of avoiding personality disorder as someone who's really, really struggles to initiate relationships. Dependent personality disorder is someone who really struggles to separate from relationships. So separation is the key psychological component of dependent personality.

That is why I think he converts to Christianity because he doesn't want to lose his family no matter what. if it means confessing and finding God, he's going to do it. He wants to keep his family, even if it's not in this life. He wants to keep his family together at all costs because presumably, and again, I'm just, I'm mentioning the observation by the psychologist Monica Walla about this quality that she seems to observe in his relationship, in his marriage with Kathy. So some other elements of dependent personality disorder are feelings of inadequacy and helplessness, but most importantly, I think, is this idea of really struggling with separation.

And that, by the way, if we go back to motivations, it's not hard to imagine that somebody with dependent personality disorder could be really triggered if, let's just say, hypothetically, let's say there's a fight in the home with Kathy, or let's say he has a fight with his daughter, and let's say his daughter threatens to reject him, or let's say Kathy does. Those would be powerful triggers to going out and committing, potentially going out and committing a crime, especially if you've had sexual fantasies about assaulting an adolescent female. So dependent personality makes this really fascinating because it adds another dimension. It adds a psychological dimension here that nobody's talking about.

Okay. Well, thank you. What an explanation. I appreciate that before heading out there. Just quickly, I want to go back to the Greek tragedy, Oedipus Rex again quickly. and talk about. So one of the most compelling moments in all of Western literature is when Oedipus learns that he's the likely murderer of his father and that he's been married to his mother. So he's been in this ancestral relationship. When he learns that, what he does,

and he doesn't tell us this, a messenger who witnesses it tells us what happens. So it's offstage, right? Like, you can't portray this on stage. But essentially what Etypice does is he takes a couple of broaches from Jakasta, who's his mother and ex-wife, and he rips his eyes out. So he engages in this extremely masochistic behavior, right? It's all the guilt and all the shame that he's now learning. You have that with Richard Allen, I think, too. Nobody's talked about this. Why is he smearing feces all over himself? Why is he banging his head against the wall? Because he's got this tremendous, once he realizes, once he decides he's going to confess, he's got this tremendous guilt and shame over what he's done. He's murdered too young. He's allegedly murdered

two young adolescent females that were vital members of this Delphi community. And I think, so I think you see some of this masochistic behavior. Again, there's this tremendous turmoil, but more than that, over and above that, you have kind of this self-harming masochistic behavior that he's using on himself because his guilt and his shame is so deep and it runs so deep. And again, I mean, all of this, this is where it gets complicated. Is this malignoring? Is he faking that? Is it partly guilt?

Is it partly shame? Right. That's where this becomes really interesting. Like trying to sort out what's going on with this guy is just really complex. Right. And something's going on with him no matter what. He's in custody and something's going on with him. And it's fascinating.

And it is complex. And I hope we get a lot more answers in trial. Yeah. Well, I'm not sure it's ever going to be sorted out because, I mean, as I said, like this combination of honesty and vulnerability around the confessions combined with like this masochistic, self-harming, injurious behavior and psychosis. Like, holy cow, this is like the perfect storm of like inner turmoil. The difference between, so this is important, the huge difference between Oedipus and Richard Allen is that Oedipus wants to find the truth no matter what the cost.

Richard Allen, not so much. Most of the criminals I work with, not so much. Self-knowledge is not their game. That's not what they're interested in. Richard Allen has a moment where he's interested in self-knowledge and he's interested in confessing and telling the truth. but that moment passes when his family rejects him essentially or his family tells him, look, stop this path, don't talk about this, keep your mouth shut, you need to save yourself. And so I think one of the great lessons, the reason why I think somebody just pointed out that, you know, they can't believe I'm talking about Sophocles and not Shakespeare. That's true. I mean, usually Shakespeare's might go too, but Sophocles, Oedipus Rex has to be one of the absolutely foundational text in Western literature. I love it. I haven't re-read it in years until this case.

But the great lesson of Oedipus is that I think one of the great lessons, there's many lessons, and people disagree about what it means. But one of the great lessons is that self-knowledge is critical. Obtaining some level of self-knowledge is really critical in living a healthy, happy life. And I can tell you from experience that almost no criminal I work with wants self-knowledge. They don't want self-awareness. It's really hard fought and hard one for them to get there. Many of them do, thankfully, but Richard Allen is not in that camp at the moment. Okay. Yeah. Colby is here too, by the way. I don't mean to interrupt your train of thought, But for those that don't know, Dr. John and Colby Ryan, Colby is the surviving son of Lori Vallo, Daveau.

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Start your free trial today atora.com slash remove. Protect yourself now atora.com slash remove. And it's a fascinating listen. And while I'm clearly biased, I know both of them, especially Dr. John, and I shared this with both of them, I was mesmerized by your conversation. I listened to it last night for the first time. And thank you both to you. Sorry for this little intermission,

but thanks to both you, Colby and my other half, my better half, people don't like it when I say you're, I'm learning better. My other half, neither much are better for your conversation that you had. And if anyone's interested in that conversation,

you can head to Colby's channel. Are you suggesting that we're splitting two? I know, there's no way to win it. I'm either co-dependent, I'm codependent or I'm insecure because you're my better half. I just want to acknowledge what you said and give a shout out to Colby and had a lot of fun on the interview. Colby's amazing. And I've been looking at some of the comments, Colby. I'm really grateful that people are watching and they watch the interview and that they're acknowledging that, you know, what a wonderful human being you are.

So I'm happy to see that. So I think at this point, I've kind of covered most of the. of my main points going into this trial. My purpose tonight was to really kind of evaluate the evidence we've had and to provide at least somewhat of a framework going into this trial because this is unusual in the sense that we still don't know a lot, right? Like so much information has been withheld. You know, we have the probable cause statement.

We have those three days of testimony in late July. We have a few other tidbits here and there. but the trial really is going to be, I think, enlightening. So I think this, my goal here tonight is just to kind of stimulate some conversation about this very complex case to provide some thoughts about why I think, you know, Alan may have played a role in the murders or allegedly played a role. Again, I don't know. It's not. This is not a slam dunk case. Right.

No, it's not. It's not at all. It is it. And I'm confused. like many of you, and I tried to start pinning a bunch of the varied thoughts. This is a confusing case. And again, for those that are interested, I break down every side in our crash course. Please listen so that you can follow along with our trial coverage.

A backstory is a good thing to have so you can listen to that on our podcast. Anywhere you listen to podcasts, it's our most recent episode on our podcast. Or I have the YouTube video linked in the description of this video. and in this chat, and I will have it in comments, pinned in comments as well. Anything else? I just know, I think I just want to set the stage for the trial and to get people talking about it and thinking about it. You know, I think a lot of the things we've talked about tonight, I have not heard these issues being discussed. So right or wrong, you know, people are going to have their opinions.

And I just hope we can open this up for conversation. And, you know, ultimately the goal is justice. Let's see what happens at the trial and let's see how things evolve. We'll be talking about it all the way through. Yeah. And let's hope that we find some measure of justice at the end of the trial. And ultimately that's the goal. I love this comment or this comment from one of our gems that I just have to read it.

She says, hidden true crime, you guys are the best. We are all speculating. But doing it here tonight with an educated hypothesis, we are all willing to be swayed, and that is what makes HTC and us gems so great. And for those new to our channel, I am the journalist, I break it down in our backstories and bring you all of the facts and all of the information. And Dr. John is a professional who works on educated hypothesis and theories, and his background, again, of decades of experience evaluating criminals.

and that is what he does and he is answering many of our questions tonight. I go to the trial and I will continue to bring all of you the facts. And the thing I love most about Becky's comment is we are all willing to be swayed. We all remain open here. And we're so appreciative of what you've shared and what you've certainly helped me understand a lot more tonight too. I did not know a lot of what you are going to share. share tonight. While we've talked about the case a lot, John and I have, it did not know what you were going to share tonight. And it has helped me, and I'm definitely thinking. Yeah, and I think it's

important to point out, too, that evidence has different weight, right? Like, you and I talk about this all the time, that some evidence is more important than other evidence. And I think sometimes people, some people make the mistake of assuming that all evidence has equal weight and all evidence should be considered in the same way. Not true. Some evidence is definitely more important and definitely should be assigned more weight. And I think the evidence that has more weight, if that can be used to build a compelling narrative of what happened, and especially in a circumstantial case, a narrative of what happened and how the pieces all fit and how those pieces make the story more compelling, I think that's kind of the goal. Yes. If you take bits and pieces

and you try to kind of force it together and some of it doesn't really make sense, then it's more difficult to reach a solid conclusion. Yes. Thank you. Thank you for explaining that about evidence. One second. We might not quite be done. I might have a couple more questions for you.

Okay. Yeah. Let's open it up to a few questions. I know I've done most of the talking. So I'd be happy to let's have a little bit of a dialogue. Great. Thank you. You know, this is a very, very long live tonight.

but we haven't been live for a long time. Yeah, we haven't been live for over a month, I think, right? Is it longer than that? Five weeks? Yeah, longest in a very, very long time. Thank you, everyone, for your kindness. So, yeah, many people are saying, I am so confused, need to follow this trial. Dr. John is speaking from his experience.

I appreciate that. Absolutely. We all need to follow this trial. The lack of transparency hasn't helped us in our confusion. Right, John? Is that, I mean... In the absence of information, in the absence of information, in the absence of evidence when information is withheld, you're going to get way more conspiracies. So we can blame the

prosecution and the state then? Well, you know, no, I think there's reasons they have withheld information. There's reasons there's gag orders. I mean, a lot of it has to do with the fact that, for example, when Richard Allen started confessing, there were details that were withheld from the public that he knew, right? That's much more damning than if they had put that evidence out there. So there's reasons why evidence gets held and that's one of them is because if only the killer knows that information and the public doesn't, then the killer is in some ways revealing themselves. Yeah. Today the defense, so one of the other things that came out today, I mentioned that the,

this contradicting information in some of his confessions came out that didn't match the crime. We covered that. But another thing that came out is the defense came out with something that said the hair that Libby was holding did not match Richard out. Allen. And if you want to talk confusing, this is really confusing because I, nobody even knew of a hair today. I mean, I mean, is there really a hair? Do we know of an hair? And, and so this is the first anyone's hearing of a hair, the hair. And that to me is like, wait, wait, what? So, so there's a

hair that, what? Libby's hold of that didn't match Richard Allen. From what I've seen. Excuse me. And you, and you know what? I just realized I kept saying Libby. it was Abby. Abby was, I need to clarify, it was Abby, not Libby. I don't look. The defense has. And maybe we put it in that, right? The defense has been trying to take control of this narrative for the last several months, for

sure. They're out in front of all the evidence. They're throwing it to the media, like, you know, red meat to lions and, you know, to social media. And first of all, their assumption could be completely wrong. Their assumption is that somehow the hair has to do with. Alan. Alan was completely clothed. He's mostly bald. Like what, I don't know. So where's that? The hair doesn't have to be tied to Alan. In fact, in other words, the absence, the absence of DNA.

What is what do they say the absence of what's the saying? Absence of DNA isn't an absence of the crime. As a matter of fact, forgive me for this, but I can't resist. But I actually think it's a red hairing. Straight from Dr. John's opinion, take it for what is worth. Okay. Well, and I'll be the journalist here and say, I will listen to the evidence because if there is a hair on Abby that doesn't match, the DNA of Allen, I am paying attention. It's a red herring.

I think, look, the problem with these types of statements is they're missing context. I want to know the context. The content. Right. Thank you. That's what it is. A lot of the stuff that the defense brings up, it is lacking context because a great example is no one even knew about a hair that Abby was holding until today. What context matters? We need context. The trial needs to bring us context without context. Everything is confusing. Is the presumption that somehow that she pulled the hair from Richard Allen's head, right? Like, I mean, come on. I don't. Could it be a piece of hair that was already on her clothes? I mean, I don't know. Like, you got to help me understand the, like, it doesn't.

You can't just throw something out without situating it in the context of the crime. So somebody appreciates my joke. Thank you for appreciate my really lame joke. And Diane, thanks for getting the saying I butchered. I thought John could pull it from his brain. And then he, you know, he was of no help. So I'll leave it to Diana to help me with what I was attempting to say. say the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

Thank you. Right. You need to situate this evidence within the context of the larger picture of this crime. I mean, Alan's bald. So if the presumption is that somehow she grabbed his head and pulled it off of there, come on. Like, I don't know. That's why you're going to trial.

We're going to learn more about these types of issues. And yes, would it have been ideal if law enforcement had found some DNA on some of the sticks or the bodies or, yeah, of course. Right? Like, I think this case would be a slam dunk if there was DNA. And early on in the case, remember, there was speculation that at least one of the victims had some DNA under their fingernails that they had somehow fought back. And I never heard that was in a documentary we watched. And I don't know, you know, I haven't heard a word about that.

I presume we would have heard about that if that was going to be brought into trial. but based on the way things are going here, I wouldn't be surprised if maybe there is DNA. I don't think so, but I don't know. In other words, I can't wait to get to trial and get context for every one of you. And I'm staying open. And again, I just want to remind everyone, I am going to trial for all of us. And I am going to do my best to bring you the best and the latest and everything that is going on. I hope to have some people on my team in court that I will be able to exchange notes with.

There will be no live tweeting. There will be no computers to take notes. I have purchased notebooks and number two pencils, and I am going to bring you everything I hear, and it's going to be a group effort. And so stay tuned. Hit subscribe, hit notifications. And please subscribe to our podcast. Our podcast is often different.

The episodes are often different than our YouTube channel. So make sure you are subscribed there. We will be doing coverage, live coverage here, more produced episodes there. So definitely subscribe and stay open. Stay open as we continue to follow the Delphi trial. And I want to say, and I'm going to let you finish, John, because you always have the final words on these lives. I just want to say to me, the most important thing,

Full circle, you know, John said, and it's true, I remember the day this case broke, I heard of two missing little girls because, you know, I was a news junkie. I heard what was happening in Indiana. And then we went for our ultrasound, the very next day on February 14th, 2017, and discovered we were having a baby boy, just as I learned two other children were taken. And I have been following this case ever since. And to me, the most important thing is, justice for these two little girls. This case has grabbed, I think, the nation and the,

and the world's attention because it's just unfathomable. And I just, I just hope there is justice for these two friends. Anyway, I'll let you finish, John. Yeah. So I'm just going to end with, I'm going to end with Sophocles, of course. So, you know, I mentioned that the, the story of Oedipus rex begins with the plague and it doesn't end until the murderer is revealed, which happens to be Oedipus. And I really, you know, I tell you that I call this case American thieves, American thieves in reference to the Oedipus Rex drama. And in many ways, I touched on a few tonight, but I think in many ways there's a lot of parallels between that Greek tragedy and this American tragedy. And I really hope that we can get some

resolution and lift the plague from not only Delphi, but from all of us in the true crime community that have been following this and perplexed by it and curious about it, right? But I think we all want the same thing. We all want justice. We all want the victims to receive justice and maybe this trial can help. Your mic is off. You know, I wonder if the moment has passed. Many people are asking me about the story I was going to share earlier. People are reminding me. They know me well. How about sticking a pen in that one?

Put a pin in it. Okay. We're going to put a pin in this, but that doesn't mean that anyone can't go listen to it right now if you want to. So let me just share with you the title of an interview we recently did. You'll see the thumbnail that I survived a serial killer on our channel. and the survivor, the headline, the title, you can go find this, and I'll put the link right here in chat, is surviving the I-5 serial killer and breaking her silence. Her story is very compelling if you want to understand the crime of what happened to Abby and Libby.

And so there it is. And that's what I was going to bring up. We're going to put a pin in that because it will be something we perhaps discuss at a later date. But for those that haven't heard that, go listen. Just go start listening from the very beginning. And you'll know exactly what I mean. And many people's questions might be answered as to what type of crime this was against Abby and Louie. And I want to thank the Survivor for coming forward on our channel too.

And yeah, I want everyone to remember and then just know that I will be going live every day. here again at the trial. So definitely. And I'll be joining you periodically for analysis and thoughts. And we will revise our hypotheses as necessary as the evidence comes forth. And as we learn more, right? And that's always my job. Let the revision begin.

Okay. We'll see you. Have a good night, everyone. All right. Good night. Hello, Hidden Jems. It's Lauren. with Hidden a True Crime podcast.

As a TV reporter, I learned the art of visual storytelling. So if you're like me, you enjoy listening, but also viewing. You can actually head to our YouTube channel, Hidden True Crime, to watch these interviews.

Hit the subscribe button for surprise lives and breaking news. And for exclusive content, things Dr. John and I only dare say behind a paywall, become a Patreon member at patreon.com slash hidden true crime.

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