Hidden True Crime - EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW: Former NFL Player Who Knew Chad Daybell

Episode Date: September 6, 2024

Scott Mitchell is not only a former NFL Quarterback, but he also happened to grow up with convicted killer Chad Daybell. Daybell even published Mitchell's memoir after Mitchell appeared on Season 16 of "The Biggest Loser". Mitchell says there isn't a day that goes by that he doesn't think of what Daybell did, and he sits down with Hidden True Crime hosts Lauren and John Matthias at their dinner table to process how the man he knew became the convicted serial killer behind bars.  The Down and Dirty with Scott Mitchell and OC Podcast Subscribe and listen to Scott Mitchell's podcast below, as a former NFL QB and MMA Champion discuss the down and dirty in sports as they see it today: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-down-and-dirty-with-scott-mitchell-and-oc/id1754022375 Follow Scott on X: https://x.com/thedowndirty49?lang=en Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We are clearly at our kitchen table with a very special guest that we're going to introduce here. Most of you know, or many of you know, that have been with us from the beginning, that we started our podcast at our kitchen table, always saying that we'd be sharing a seat for you, and we recorded our dinner time conversations. That's actually the origin story of hidden true crime. And so when we have a very special guest, we are. oftentimes invite them to sit with us at our kitchen table. We did that, for example, with Heather Daybell, with Kay and Larry Woodcock. And today is no exception. We are doing this now with

the Scott Mitchell. Scott is a former NFL quarterback. You played for 12 years. 12 years in the NFL, yes. What teams? I was drafted by the Miami Dolphins. Then I went to the Detroit Lions, Baltimore Ravens, and Cincinnati Bengals. Wow. Wow. So, So quite the career, in other words. And he also is currently a podcast host. What is your podcast? So I like to call it a streaming sports radio show. It's called The Down and Dirty with Scott Mitchell.

So we cover sports from people who know. And we're going to give you the real insight, the down and dirty to really all the sports that you care about. There's a few sports out there. A lot of people like, I don't like. And so we're not going to talk about them. What about the Olympics? You know, the Olympics, I love the Olympics, and I really do.

I get really patriotic. I think a lot of people might argue that this year's Olympics was by far the best Olympics. Certainly, look, all we care about is the medal count, right? And we just want to do we get more gold medals in China? That's all we want, right? We want that, and we want to win. I think we want to win swimming, too. And then there's the other sports that you're supposed to win, like basketball.

And so it's almost like, yeah, okay, we're supposed to win that. I'm intrigued by golf. I like golf. I like golf in the Olympics. The other thing that's really exciting. And so I live in Utah. I live in Salt Lake City. And sports in Utah just grew up.

Like we now have the NHL hockey. We've got the NBA and the Winter Olympics. And they were great in 2002. And now they're coming back in 2034. And that is just massively exciting. They're still trying to get baseball, Major League Baseball. ball in Salt Lake. So I love sports. Sports has been an incredible part of my life. Like it's it's really like it can't get away from it. And I don't want to get away from it.

You know, so it's it's really been a tremendous thing. So it's fun to talk about for me. It's fun to share my insight and everything that I've felt and learned and experienced. And it's it's really really good. I wish we could spend because I know you want to talk about sports and I want to talk about sports. because, you know, let's face it, Chad Daybill is not a sport, you know, and so. There's a foreshadowing right there. Put a pin in that. There's, there's, yeah. So I love sports. I love to share it, and that's what I do. Yeah, no, and John, a lover of sports too. You guys both, John played football. You were never an NFL quarterback. No, but it was okay. I love you for your brain.

I enjoyed sports. I love sports. I'm still a sports fan. I'm looking forward to listening to your show. Good. Yeah, please tune in. Many of our guests might be wondering right now, oh, are you guys starting a sports podcast with Scott?

How does Scott fit into true crime? So here's a little teaser for all of you because get ready for a fascinating interview, everyone. You also might recognize Scott from, I'll say the biggest loser. You were on the biggest loser back when the biggest loser reality. What year was that?

I was season 16. Season 16. Wasn't trying to be on the show and I loved it. And it was a powerful time for me. There were some cool things that happened that weren't even a part of the show. Unfortunately for me, I wasn't big enough to be the business loser. So you can't even lose the biggest loser. You must be a really big loser if you can't lose the biggest loser kind of thing.

I say a little tongue and cheek. Great, great time. A lot of amazing people, amazing experiences. It was a wonderful thing. He wrote a lot about, this is his book. I just want to show that.

He wrote a lot about being on the biggest loser in this book. And let me tell you who this book is published by. Let's just let people know. Please don't. Oh, I'm going to let him know. he portled here today. So Spring Creek Book Company is the publisher of your book. In other words, Chad Daybell's publisher.

And when you refer to growing up in a small town, you're referring to Springville, Utah. Yes. And you also, I'm going to have to say it, you thank Chad Daybell and the forward of this book. Thank you to Chad Dayball. found the staff of Spring Creek Book Company for their hard work. So there you go, everybody.

Well, yeah, the awkward, what is it, a pregnant pause, the awkward silence there after you make that. Look, now it's extremely embarrassing, you know, to have been associated with Chad. I cringe about it all the time, kind of. I mean, I mean, it's, you know, I never in the moment when Chad was writing a book, when he spent two and a half months in my house.

When his wife Tammy was sitting there every day, she was on a computer and she was typing all of the, you know, editing stuff and making corrections. I never thought in a million years that she would be dead. It would be because of him and that he, you know, murdered two other children. And I mean, so how am I supposed to, no one's going to know that.

But now it's embarrassing. Now it's just cringe. I just hate it. There's nothing that he did, nothing that that would lead me to believe, oh yeah, this guy's a, is it, is it a mass murder when it's multiple people? I mean, what is the actual term of a person?

I mean, I want to get my... Terms right. I think just referring to him as a murderer, probably just a job done. Cover everything. Yeah. But technically, yeah, the definition would be... Serial killer for him, though.

It's not a mass murder in this situation. It's a serial killer, right? Yeah, a serial killer would be when you kill people over a period of time. A mass murder typically would. Would be someone like at one point. It would be like Stephen Paddock at the Mandalay Bay at the concert. Right, got it. The number of people at the same time.

Yeah, so, I mean, I can think of a lot of other people I grew up with it. I'd say before chat, you know. You're not going to mention any names. No. No. Yeah, it's just really embarrassing. And for me, you know, writing a book was just something that I felt and wanted to do for a long time. And it's fun to share the moments of my life, you know.

I think some of them are interesting and unique and whatever. And so having that experience. But I can tell you when we were doing the book that there was this conflict that we had in that. that he was trying to paint me and my life in a picture that was perfect. And it was like, and I go, look, my life has not been perfect. And I don't want it to, I don't want people to think that it's been perfect. I've had some very embarrassing things happen, disappointing things happen. There's things, boy, I wish I'd have done that different.

You know, I'm not, you know, I could have been better in a lot of situations. and so he wanted it to be hugely well you got to know your audience and your audience is an lDS audience and i go no no look no my audience is people i don't want it to i don't want to paint this false fake i don't i don't think lDS people would appreciate that and and i'm very lDS like quite frankly a lot of why i've even spoken in the past and everything is because chad daybell does not represent what being an l d'l's LDS person is to me. And it was embarrassing. It was, you know, humiliate. It was just like, how could you portray something that's so it's such a good story, such a good message for me personally

has brought so much hope and peace. And you've just dismantled that in such a horrible way. And you've just, you know, for a guy who wanted to create this image of looking like a good guy, you know, he certainly blew it in a big way. just damage so so many things i mean i think of heather daybell who you've had on you know and i don't know heather i mean she grew up she was younger than i was grew up in springville and for that to kind of be part of what she shook her faith you know that that's sad to me you know that that it can have that much damage on people because my faith teaches me so many different things it teaches about hope and and it teaches about you know christ said you know i i didn't come

here to condemn you i came here to redeem you uh you know so he's not you know it's not about killing people it's about helping people and and i and i just it's just really sad that that someone got so far out of bounds and so far i mean i just i just try to rack my brain about chad like like where did you go off the rail like at what point and then at what point did you keep going further off the rails. What point did you get where you decided to murder people? Like I can't, I mean, in my, my most hated people that I know in the world, I've never imagined ever killing them. I just, I can't wrap my brain around that. When you and I spoke on the phone for the first time, you said something actually that I won't forget. You said, since,

this has happened, you know, since Chad Daybill was in the news, there isn't a day that's gone by that you haven't thought about this. Is that true? It's really true. And it's not like I'm trying to think about it. Like I don't, I don't spend my, I'm busy. I got a lot of life. I'm living like I've got a good life. Got a great life.

Wonderful, wonderful life. And so I don't consciously go. All right, let's talk about Chad Daybell today. but it comes up. It comes up at the most odd moments. And there is one reoccurring theme that always comes up for me. So I'll be anywhere. You know, it doesn't matter what I'm doing.

And I'll be, okay, this whole entire day that I've been out having fun, working, not working, sitting in my, it doesn't matter. I'm free. I'm free. I can go do whatever I want. I can go do nothing, and yet I'm still free. And this whole time, just today, but every day, I'm free, and he's not, and he never will be again. And that's just really stuck with me, and how much time has passed since he was arrested on the day when they found the children in his backyard.

And he's never been free since that day. And I think of all the days and all the moments and the year. that have gone by since then and all the life that I've lived and the wonderful things that I've experienced, it's been great. And he's, he's in jail. He's in, it's just, it's just been one of the really powerful stark messages or moments or impacts from this. And I don't forget it. And I do, do, it crosses my mind often. You had mentioned that you were just thinking about something about Chad Dable the other day. Was it about that issue or was it something different?

There's always stuff that pops up. Like one of the things in his trial that I, that I haven't, because I listened to you guys. You guys are amazing. Love what you do. And, you know, because I paid attention to the trial, of course. And it was when Chad's mom, test. And it wasn't dramatic. She didn't say, and no one said, oh, well, that was, boy, she dropped a bombshell there. You know, that was, but it's that she said she testified. And I, and it just hit me one day. It was like, because moms are moms. moms love their kids, right? And they love them in a way nobody else does. And to have your mom essentially testify for the prosecution. And it wasn't earth shattering what she said. but she testified to tell the truth.

And I think in some way, and this is my own opinion, I am to talk to Chad's mom, I think it was her way of saying, you know, the truth is important. And we got to get to the truth. And that's what I would want to say to Chad. Like I've thought a lot about actually going and seeing him, trying to get a hold of him,

whether it was calling him on the phone or literally going to see him and just say, look, can we have a real conversation? Like, don't give me the BS. Don't give me your spiel. Don't give me all that stuff. Look me in the eye and tell me what you're doing is true and right and good. And you know it's not. So quit it.

Give up the facade, knock it off. And I think it was in some way his mom, the truth is really important. important here. And I think it was his mom's way of maybe saying it a little bit to him, Chad, own up to this. And, you know, I don't, you know, just be a man about it and make it right. Right. It was her saying wake up. Yeah. Thousand percent. Another thing you shared with me on the phone. And honestly, I think this entire interview is going to cover this. It's not going to be one answer. But you said you're still just trying to figure it out.

Like, as you say, you would have never thought, you would have never thought Chad Daybell would be the guy that is sitting behind bars and for the reason. So when you grow up in a small town, and I loved it. I loved growing up where I grew up. It was unbelievable. Like, there was no sense of crime at all. you went to the grocery store and you didn't you didn't lock your door i mean you probably leave your car open with the window open and you know and if someone came by and took your cars probably because

they needed a ride you just get your you know there was never you know murder was never i mean any i mean nothing me and we just roamed the streets just come home when it's dark you know and all that stuff and it was wonderful it's just truly remarkable so it's really hard to wrap your brain around someone that you grew up within a small town getting to like where he got to like like for me i just i can't i can't wrap my brain around you know that i knew someone or that um he was you know someone who i you know you know i mean i have so many connections that I didn't realize I had with Chad. And in fact, I was thinking of one driving here today. I remember because he talked in his book, right? And I wanted to figure out, I wanted to

figure out where does this guy come from? How did he get to this point? Where do you, what do you do this? And he talked about being really good at sports when he was first starting out in baseball. And he talks about hitting like home runs and all of this stuff. And I remember, read it because I read this book. As have we. Just to understand, right? And a lot of people like, why would you even read any? Like, I'm trying to understand where to, because that's why I'm here, quite frankly,

John, is you got to help me understand who this guy is because I don't know. But did you play sports with Chad Dago? Well, so he talked about how great he was at baseball his first year. And I'm like, I don't remember that. But driving here today, I actually remember him being really good at baseball. And that was an accurate thing. And when I say, this was like our first year of organized baseball. Like for me, I was terrible when I first started playing baseball.

I was like, I was horrible. This was beyond T-ball. It was the first year after T-ball. So it was your first year where like the players actually threw, you know, we never had coach pitch. We had player pitch. Okay. And he was, and I remember now, I can see him running around the bases and going, this kid, you know, And then after that, it was like, we all just went right by Chad as far as.

So he was never, he was never in sports. I think we, well, I have a picture of Little League. Are you in either of those photos? So I have, I have, no, man, look at that hair, though. Is that? Oh, there's Chad right there. Look at that. So just to clarify.

I just to clear, I just want to put a record here. You're saying there was a moment, there was maybe a year or so, when Chad Debo was actually a better athlete than Scott Mitchell. That would be inaccurate or something. That alone is going to stun people. Yeah. And so that, that was, that was a tough, that was a tough time for me. And while this, as you say, it's embarrassing that you know,

knew not only did you knew them but then as adults you said yeah you know what chat help me write my book which this is not this is chad's book not your book grab grab and i want to say this we both read your book it's it's quite good and so i have questions now too because as someone that's um read a lot of chat day bell's books you know unfortunately and john and i have spent a lot of time kind of mocking sort of how bad they are honestly and I liked your book. I actually read your book and John liked it too and it was quite good and I have like a lot of questions too like why why did he not promote your book more I don't know we'll get into that there is so much to just I guess unpack here I want to let people know but but your book is really good

And it's actually inspiring. And did Chad write it then? Or did you write it? So in his book, so his book, he talks about an experience he had with me. He does. And that was really creepy to me, by the way, because it's not the truth. What he told in his book is actually not, I know it's a shock to people that it's actually not the truth, but it wasn't how things actually happen.

We learned about you back in early 2020 by reading Chad Deval's book. And yeah, and I have some theories as to why I was in his book. But to get back to your question about my book and how it's different, Chad didn't write my book. I actually wrote my book. It's actually from my own words, my own mouth. I did it in a unique way, sat down with a court report. It wasn't, it was my idea to do that.

It wasn't Chad's. And so, so literally, that's a little foreshattering, right? To Chad to be around court reporters typing. I just realized that. I didn't even think about that till this very long. There's more foreshadowing in your book about the mortician story, but we'll get to that later. Yeah.

Oh, that's, yeah. Can I think about that? I could have either been a garbage man or mortician. Yeah. Which was mortifying to me, by the way. He's like, that's what I have to look forward to. I know. Well, that's when you apparently decide that you told the guidance counselor, no, I'm going to be a professional football.

But then Chad Daybell essentially, he didn't become a mortician, but he worked with in a graveyard. Let me just read what, so this is Chad Daybell's autobiography, living on the edge of heaven, Spring Creek Book Company. The irony is it was published shortly after. yours and then he spent a lot more time promoting his book than your book which i find interesting as well we'll get into that uh but this is this is what he says so you tell us that what isn't accurate about this interesting dreams about scott mitchell which can i just say that's like a little weird that's all right that had to give you pause to yeah i don't dream about me you probably don't have interesting dreams about chad davelle though either and i never had a

about Chad. No. So interesting dreams about Scott Mitchell. As I explained earlier, oh, so I skipped something. Did I skip one part of him? As he explained earlier, NFL quarterback, Scott Mitchell and I were friends

growing up, not buddies who hung out together, but definitely friends. He and I were often on the same basketball and baseball teams and his dad, Bill, was usually our coach. I had closely followed Scott's football career. So there you go. He was following you intensely in your football career. He went on to

excel at the University of Utah setting several NCAA passing records. The Miami Dolphins then drafted him in 1990 and he spent three years as Dan Marino's backup. I assume that much is true. When Dan suffered a... Can I just stop for one second? Yeah, yeah, stop. Because it kind of, it kind of grates on me. We weren't friends growing up. We were acquaintances. It wasn't like I had friends. I can tell their names. I would go to their house to play. We would go play in the park. We would we would hang out together. I'd go to their house. They would come to my house. Those were my friends. Never ever one time did it happen that I was his friend. And that now were we on sports teams together? Yeah. And I can, there's probably other kids that were on those same sports teams that were not my

friends. We were teammates for a period of time. But, but, but in a question, because we went to school together, but we were not, we were not friends. Now as I reread that back. So the rest of it's true. The rest of it's true, but that part is not. And it's weird because this bugs me. Like it really does. Like the whole thing really bugs me.

No, he's a serial killer now. It bugged me too. The way he clarifies it, we were friends growing up. Well, and then he explains, well, not buddies who actually hung out. together. Right. But we were definitely friends. But then he gives no context.

We're definitely not friends. And the fact that you were not buddies who hung out together kind of shows us all that, I guess. Thoughts, thoughts, Dr. Jay or should I just keep going? Keep going.

I think the more interesting part is when he talks about the dream. Okay. Well, we'll keep going. I have a theory about why this was in here. Can I just share it right now? I moved away from Utah, moved back to Utah, and I'd run into people that I played football against in high school. And most of them say, yeah, I picked you off in high school.

I got an interception off of you. And it's like if all the people that I ran up to who told me they intercepted me in high school, like, how would I ever get recruited to play? And there's this, there's this using another person's, status to establish credibility for yourself when you don't have any credibility. And that's what this really felt like to me as I read this because that book came out after the book that Chad published for me. And by the way, Chad published a book. I'm like, okay, well, how are we going to promote this? You were asking those questions. He goes,

we had this strategy and it was working. It's fun. And really all we did, we went to Costco. They ordered 200 books and I'd sit there on a Saturday. People come in and they buy the books. And it was fun. I didn't really write the book to make money off of it. I really wrote it because I just had this inside of me. I just wanted to put it on paper and get it out there. That was more of the reason. And then we were not long into this. And Chad just goes, yeah, I'm shutting down my publishing company and I'm moving to Idaho. And I never talked to Chad again ever after that moment. And so then all this stuff comes out and like Chad's been accused of all these things and I'm like, what's going on in Chad's world? And I heard, I watched a date line

and Keith Morrison said, all you need to know about Chad Daybo is in the edge of heaven. I'm like, what's the edge of heaven? And so that's when I got the book and I started reading his book going, well, he didn't shut his publishing company down because he just published a book about himself. And then I started reading all this stuff about the dreams he had and about my relation. And I'm like, I'm in a book that Chad Daybell wrote. And like, he never even talked to me about being in his book. And I was like, and so that's when I started to put together. Okay, this is who Chad is.

Like he has no credibility. And in his soul, he knows that. But he can kind of fool the people by telling, you know, hey, I grew up with a guy played in the NFL. Who, who, not many people can say that, right? And so, wow, wow, you must be very important. You must, you know, and you were buddies, you were friends, you were whatever. And people are going to pay attention to you or more.

They're going to give you some level of respect that maybe you couldn't get otherwise. It's called name dropping. Right. You know, social status. Social proof. You know, John, you've actually talked a lot about that when it comes to Chad Daybill, that he did like the who's who and the name dropping. And I think you nailed it with.

status in anything you want to add to that because it is true. I see this as when I read it the first time and I had never talked to you, I saw it as a name dropped to as a status, as a, you know, and I think looking back, I think I did giggle when he said, we were not buddies. We didn't hang out, but we were definitely, like quantifying your friendship or you're not friendship. There were two, 288 students that graduated in my class. A lot of them I went to school with from elementary school, kindergarten, all the way through high school. You know everyone.

You know, it's not like we had 1,500 people in our graduating class. Not a, you know, we knew each other. And when you live in a small town, you all do all the things. You go to church together. You play sports together. Everyone associates with everyone,

but you're not necessarily friends with, you know, with everyone. I had my group of friends. I'm still friends with them today. And they're not Chad, never were. Lately, I've been trying to be more intentional about what I wear, intentional about everything, just choosing pieces that feel effortless,

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For a limited time, you can get 15% off your entire first order at happy mammoth.com. That's Happy H-A-P-P-Y mammoth, M-A-M-M-O-T-H.com. Just use the code Hidden True Crime at checkout. That's code Hidden True Crime. Use that with Happy Mammoth.com for 15% off today. Yeah, he, I mean, I think there's no question that he wanted some measure of fame. It might have been fame within the LDS community, but it was still fame. So we know from talking to a source very close to Chad that he wanted that, that he saw

himself is special. He was writing these books, which were getting some attention. So I think that's part of it too. I think he felt like he was maybe not like a super well-known author, but he was an author and he was somewhat well-known. And maybe given your status of being an NFL player, he saw those two as connected. Don't, don't you think like when you say I'm an author? like that to me sounds like it has status you know like like i would have respect for some i mean i wrote a book right yeah and but i don't i mean i don't go around going yeah i'm an author too um i actually don't ever promote the book i barely talk about it um it's my life there's some stories in there that happened in my life that mean a lot to me uh but i always had was

chad got a perfect score in his ac like i would say chad would be successful in his life. He was a great student who's on the student council in high school. I would say he was a person that probably would have done something significant in his in his life. The class that I went to, it was a really good class. We had some people that, you know, we have doctors and a lot of successful people, you know, really we won state championships in sports. So our swimming team was really good. Our band played at Ronald Reagan's inauguration, you know, and it was just across the board. Our whole class was pretty unique and special.

And so I would have looked at Chad, you know, more so to be a person that probably would have gone on in his life and done very well and whatever he did. I would never have seen him as a person that, would, you know, be where he is now. I just wouldn't. I would have seen it a way different way. Yeah, that's actually, that's, that's one of the things we talk about a lot is, did Chad Daybell break bad?

You know, was he fundamentally this, this guy that was good and wanted to do good and just went down the wrong path at some. So I have a theory. Okay. Yeah, I'd love to hear it. I really do have a theory. Okay. Because I, because I really do think about. about this I don't want to I don't think about it but I do and one of the things is it

feels like to me this whole idea of okay I want to do something special in my life but I think he realized in talking to people that he could convince people of a narrative and the narrative like his his novels they're fiction right yeah and but they were they were based on actual events. And there were other LDS authors, you know, the work in the glory and, you know, and so it's it's a novel based on on real events, which, which I actually kind of like those types of books. It's kind of, I don't know, it's kind of interesting. And I think he was at first kind of modeling this or copying it or whatever. And then I think there got to a point

where he goes, I'm not sure where fantasy fiction and reality switch, because I can name drop. You know, I think he did it when you mentioned about LDS leaders. Yeah. And I think he named drop those, you know, quoting apostles and prophets and all kinds of things is and using kind of have a half-truth to kind of perpetuate. is lie, but I think there came a point when he realized, I can lie to people and they'll believe it as being true. And I really think there was a point that he was just, he got, I don't know whether it was confused, I don't know whether it was on purpose, but I think he realized I can really

fool a lot of people into believing some pretty crazy stuff. And I think he said it so much, I think he started to believe it to to himself, you know, where he just lost that line of what is real and what is fiction. Then he had a narrative that fit him and trying to, you know, get to some result. Like I think with Lori, he's like, I finally had a cute girl that paid attention to me. And I'm going to say whatever I can. So she's going to be with me. and and to the point of well my wife's going to die early because i can't divorce my wife because

i'm a good lDS guy and that would look bad and so he can create this narrative of of telling half-truths and spinning things so much and so often to the point where he just goes it it becomes his truth it becomes his reality there's a term for that in psychology it's called the sleeper effect if you if you if you tell a lie often and often you even though if you know it's a liar, you know, it's fiction. If you do it over and over and people are believing it or seem to be believing it, then sometimes you start believing it. And I, I question myself, like, am I buying my own BS? You know? And I, and I seriously, I seriously ask myself, because I don't want to end up getting to the end of my life and going, you are so clueless about

reality. Like, dude, you are so far off the rails. And I don't want, I don't want, I don't, want to get that way. And I, because I can spin a tale. Like, I can tell a story and I can, you know, and, um, and, you know, I can sell things to people, but I, but I want to, I really, really try to, to be true and authentic and real in my assessment of me and where I am and how, how things are. And part of it is because of what I've seen with Chad. Well, you, you didn't come in here and tell us right away that you were drafted. to buy the Miami Dolphins and instantly you beat out Dan Marino for starting quarterback. No, Chad Dayball told us that.

I didn't have the feeling that you weren't being truthful. So, or maybe you did. Okay, so there's a lot there because, you know, when I was done playing football, it was almost like, it was all, I don't know if it's embarrassment. to say it like I just or you felt like you were bragging about so I just I just very rarely talked about unless someone was interested if someone wanted to know what I did or who I was then I'd share information but I I certainly haven't gone out and led with you know I'm not wearing my my jersey or you know paraphernalia from when I played um because I you know as great as

professional sports. It is incredible experience. I just feel like there's so much more to me as a person. Yeah. And if I'm just defined by that I played professional football, that would be kind of limiting. And I think there's just more to what I love in life and who I am than just that. So I just And that comes across in your book, by the way. So I don't think we said the title, but the book is alive again. And both Lauren and I both read this. And I was really quite, moved by it so and it does it does come across that you're not one dimensional in your book so yeah and oh boy um had this really interesting relationship with my dad um well my dad did so many great things for me in my life and and and chad mentions my dad in his book as a coach and my dad was

a coach and i hated it hated that my dad was one of our coaches because because it's you And my friends love my dad. They were like, he's our favorite coach of all time. I've had so many of them. If your dad had not helped us coach, we would have never won a state championship in football. And I was like,

and I just, I just hated, heated that my dad was my coach at that time. And I've coached my kids in sports and had wonderful experiences with my kids. But I was mad at my dad at the time. And so my dad went through this process of dying slowly. And it was because of being overweight.

And I watched it. And I watched him for a period of six years, just have horrendous things happen to his physical body. And I was with him when he was about to die. And we're in the hospital, and they're like, he probably has 20 minutes, maybe a couple of hours. So I'm sitting with my dad knowing he's going to die at any time, and I'm going to say goodbye.

And I don't know what to say. Because I thought that this wasn't going to happen, and I thought he was going to get better, and he didn't, and I didn't really understand. And I just, how do you say goodbye? Like, you only get one shot at this. And I'd made my amends with my dad, and we were really,

close when he when he did die and and we're in this room and this nurse shut the door to the room to give us some privacy and a picture of a butterfly appeared and I just said dad you're like an old worn out caterpillar right now and your body's ravaged and it's going to go into a cocoon and someday you're going to come back again and you're going to be this beautiful butterfly and it just gave me this peace with my dad dying knowing it wasn't forever and and from my faith i know that he'll live again and he'll be whole and shortly after that i went on the biggest loser and uh i was i was like my first day on the show and i'm being interviewed like we're being

interviewed right here they set up all the cameras look just like this and as they start the interview, you know, how do you feel about being overweight and how do you feel about being fat and how do you feel about being on TV and how do you, you know, so we're starting this interview and a butterfly flies out of the air and lands on the trainer's shoe. And I just lost it. I was just like, but through that whole experience and there were a whole lot of other things that happened, it felt like it was my dad saying to me you don't have to die like I did to be that butterfly

and to find that greatness that's in you and that's the cool thing about the caterpillar right caterpillar doesn't go get plastic surgery it doesn't go it finds within its own self this transformation and what it's true potential it can be

and and it takes there's this process of morphing, this process of going through struggles. You know, I think of a caterpillar's like ugly. Like no one, you know, birds want to eat it, fishermen want to put it on a hook kind of thing. And then it morphs into this incredible creature. And that's really what,

that's what my book's about. You know, it's not about light and dark spirits and destroying things. It's like within all of us, there's this true greatness and we can find that today. Yeah, and you talk about all of that quite a bit in your book. And the stories you just told her in your book too,

so I would encourage people to pick it up and read it. Can you find it? I was just going to say, although. Maybe I should get it reprinted and we'll just go. Yeah, where does it go to Spring Creek Book Company? I know, yeah, it's a little confusing. So I actually actually have an agreement that all of it. it is my property.

So I guess I could, I don't know. Yeah, just a thought. I mean, I can always write a new book. True. Or add on to this one. Yeah. It's wonderful. But right, that's so funny. You know that that was a sincere recommendation by John because it's spring Greek book company.

Right. So you meant that. I, you know, as we were talking earlier, you know, I see a lot of my son. in your book. So I think that was a big part of it. I appreciate that too. My family was, the family dynamic was very similar

in some ways to yours. I had two brothers, but, you know, when you talk about your mother always saying everything's okay, that's exactly how my mother was. And things weren't always okay. In fact, things were not that okay a lot of times. But it didn't matter. It wasn't going to be talked about.

And one of the things that drove me crazy is that my mom would always say, you know, we may have problems in our family, but we put everything on the table. You know, and so when you talk earlier about just trying to be truthful about yourself and your family, like, that wasn't accurate. All the important things, they never were on the table. Your family. My family. Yeah. My family. Yeah.

So, but my point is that you talk about those types of dynamics in your book and your relationship with your mom and your dad and that there wasn't this perfect family. And I think, by the way, that you said earlier that Chad was seeking this perfection in your book. Right. I think that's part of the answer in terms of understanding Chad Debo. But I think it's interesting, it was interesting to me that one of your struggles was, was trying to be truthful about your past and honest about it and not succumb to this idea that everything's always great and everything's okay.

Or to avoid that because, as Chad would say, no, no, you're writing for an LDS audience. I remember you're saying, like, no, I'm writing from my heart. He didn't get that. So my belief is in Christ. and he atoned for our sins because knew we were going to make mistakes, that we weren't going to be perfect. And so it's turning to Him, turning to Christ with your imperfections.

It's really laying it all on the table for him. And that's my belief. That's my religion is having faith in Christ and knowing that he can redeem for who I am, who is not a perfect person. It was hard with wanting answers growing up and seeing that everything wasn't perfect in my own family, far from it. And quite frankly, I'm really glad that it wasn't. I really am. I don't think God intended for us to have these perfect families or perfect experiences.

I don't. And so I'm glad for that. But with my own kids, I started doing this thing with them. I don't even know. It was when they were younger and I just said, if you're interested, let's go, we'll just spend a Saturday morning and we'll just go hang out for a couple hours. Do whatever you want. We can go get something to eat, go shop, we can go play golf, whatever. And you can ask me anything you want. You can ask me questions about my life. You can ask questions about your future, you can ask questions about, you know, anything, would you want to do that?

And they're like, yeah. Because I never had, my parents, I would have killed for my, I had so many questions that I, I just stressed about, and I had anxiety over and I worried about that I wished I could have talked to somebody, my parents, you know, preferably. And, and you know, the funny thing is I had these really close friends. And we never talked. Our conversations were just so on the surface. And we all had things going on in our lives. And none of us knew about it when we were growing up.

So I did that with my kids. I still do it today. It's wonderful. And it's been a good thing, you know, coming out of this. And, you know, it is a message with Chad that does ring with me often. is just trying so hard to be honest and i just think he was so dishonest and so disingenuous and and and it led to his destruction and demise ultimately and the lives that are impacted and just destroyed because of it just it's never never lost on me and i think about these people

you know uh that have been a big part of this the colby ryan's and Kay and Larry and my heart just, you just, you just, and Chad's own children. In fact, when they were testifying, and I just, I've just like, you know, he has spun a web around them and he, and here's the person that can have the most influence on who they are. And clearly, he's, he's abused that sacred. opportunity and responsibility and i i called my daughter when i saw emma and i said you call me out you you you if i'm not being true to you call me out on it don't because because i just i just didn't want my children to i want them to to be just to be in a real space

You know, it just broke my heart for these kids, Chad's kids, to where they are today. You know, just, and I don't know where they are today. And I really, you know, are they, but I just, I just feel and it just seemed to appear to me from their testimony in that trial that they were, they believed their dad was innocent. And that was just heartbreaking to me. that they became a part of his web of deceit. Yeah. A lot of people have mentioned the day that Emma testified, Emma and Garth testified, Chatskinsed that it was a very, very difficult day in the trial.

Prosecutor Rob Wood, who he interviewed, stated that seeing the children's autopsies was the absolute worst day and followed by listening to, Chad Daybell's children testify was very difficult for him. And it sounds like it had that same effect. Were you watching daily in this day? I mean, yeah, what were your thoughts as you as you heard them talk about their mother? And yeah, I'm just curious as someone that knew Tammy and knew Chad and we're watching this from a personal level. Oh, boy.

you know as far like my experience with Tammy so Tammy was younger again I had very little interaction with Tammy her older brother was my age and I had limited interaction with him in high school again acquaint you know everyone yeah right but but you're not really friends and just when Chad was in my house Tammy didn't say it's doing the book and so chad and tammy were basically like we are sitting around the dining table i don't think i don't recall tammy speaking ever and like like ever and i was almost it was weird because i like to talk right you know and just let's have a conversation you know let's you know i would you know i want you to feel welcome in my home i want you to feel you know and it's almost to me a personal challenge if

someone's not going to talk, I'm going to get you to talk, right? And she just, I mean, I don't think she ever looked up from her computer. I don't ever think she stopped typing. And there was a different and weird dynamic. And I don't know what the dynamic was, but it was one of the one directing the whole process was Chad. And it was a certain narrative in a certain way. and he was good at it. And I just think about that with his kids and how it just felt like to me that they,

you know, I think they mentioned that Chad and Emma talked daily while he was in jail. And I can only imagine what his spin on everything was because in his mind, he wasn't wrong. And he certainly wasn't going to come clean to his daughter.

I don't think. And so to me, that was just seeing kind of the dynamic of Chad and the limited understanding that I have. I'm not here to claim to be an expert on Chad Daybill at all. But just watching and seeing what I did see of him. And I just can only imagine what he was saying to those kids that just wasn't the truth. And does that ever go away? Do they ever come to the light and just go?

I mean, I found things out about my parents later on their life that nobody knew about that were really shocking that I'm not going to talk about here. But they were shocking and the impact it had on, you know, so, you know, and, and I've had people say, you know, you've already lost your mom, you know, to what extent will you lie or maybe not see the truth of things? you know, you'll kind of spin it in your head to a point where you go, I can't, I can't lose both my parents. I can't come to grips with that my dad could ever do something like that.

And from an outsider for me, I want to tell Chad, tell the truth, you know, but from his kid's perspective, maybe they don't want that truth. Maybe it's just too painful. Maybe it's too hard. I don't know, but it's just, I think it would be easier for them if they did know the truth. If they could come, at least they knew what the truth was. And then you can kind of go from there, but to just continue on as, I mean, living your whole life thinking, oh, and police are bad. They did a poor job of doing this. There could be other, it was, it was Lori's fault. It was

Alex, it was someone else's fault. And living, living that life or the rest of your life, I just think it would be extremely debilitating. Part of what you're talking about is, dealing with the truth would mean they would have to see their father in a completely different manner right it would be a shift from seeing their father as somewhat heroic and the guy who writes these wonderful books the guy who you know gets these visions from god to someone who's a murderer so i hate looking in the mirror because i look at myself from the inside out right and i think i look thin and beautiful and then i look in the mirror and i look in the mirror and I go, dude, you're overweight.

Like, you are not the best version of yourself. It's like, but I don't feel that way. Like, I don't see myself that way internally. And so, or I see myself when I'm 20, you know, or think of my, and then I'm, oh, I'm getting some gray hair. And I got, you know, my eyes are kind of, you know, they're just got bags under them. And there's just, there's things, you know, that just aren't the same. But I feel the same.

inside. And so I think maybe it is hard for us to really see the true version of who we are. Maybe we're all in denial. I don't know. I don't know. But I think it would be, because I, I swear to you guys, I think it's the thing I think the most of is just being honest with myself. Seriously, it's just, if there's one, there's those two things, being free and just being honest with yourself, I think those are the things that jump out at me the most from all of this. Well, there's more. There's always more. Yeah, well, those are two really important elements of self-awareness.

Something Chad does not. Yeah, something Chad seems to lack. The other thing that I've tried to figure out. Like, okay, I can understand trying to, you know, having the really cute girl pay attention to you and trying to spin, you know, like, because that, because, you know, no one dies in that, supposedly. Where do you, where do you go off the rails to, to murder? Like, like, that's another thing that just jumps out at me and I'm just like, like, I, like, at what moment did that click in? like what urge were you just trying to satisfy? What, what lie were you trying to spin?

What were you, what in the world were you trying to convince yourself of that would make you believe that murder was okay? Wait for that because that's really important in the probably next entire half of this interview, but I'm not quite ready. Can I go back to one thing first? I want to talk about Tammy one more time because I'm not, I'm not ready to move on from what I've heard about Tammy. And you share this with me on the phone for a little bit because I'm learning that in some ways there are two experiences with Tammy Daybell for people.

And I don't think there are two Tammy Daybell. Let me be very clear. I think Tammy Daybell was a very authentic, kind-hearted person, but there are observers seeing two different sides to Tammy Daybal. And so I just want to talk about it because Heather Daybell, interviewed at this very table and she kind of implied that they they weren't friends that Chad Dable would talk for her and Heather and I have talked and she's now thought and said that she believes that there was some control controlled by Chad she didn't know that then she thought that maybe Tammy was cold or not warm now she thinks oh gosh what was chat telling her

about me and she testified in court that that um that that chat and tammy were coming to her house and chat said we're coming but don't ask Tammy any questions only ask me questions and then Heather said but I didn't do that Tammy's a grown woman jump ahead and another day in trial that I noticed because I sat there each day in court was the day that seemed to make Chad the most expressive was a day when about four women testified for Tammy that were her friends. And they said that she was warm and that she was friendly and that she was social. And Chad was over there.

He had been pretty, I don't know, not stoic, but you know, expressionless until this day. And he was shaking his head like this isn't true. It seemed to really upset him. So I just want to go back to really quickly because I find this point interesting about Tammy. First off, how long, how many days did they come over? Like I want to explain that to you. They came over for like months or a month, month, month every day to your house. Yeah.

Not like every like not necessarily on the weekends, but during the week, they would, they would come over. And then I would actually spend time writing and then they would come back. But, but they were consistently in my house. I would say two to two and a half months. So every day for two, two, two and a half months, give her minus weekends. And she never said a word. No. I'm telling I'm like I'm sitting here in my mind trying to go I I it was it was it was it was it was almost like and again I was so focused on writing a book and I was constant you know the whole you know because the whole focus was on writing so I'm writing stuff and I'm editing and I'm and I'm talking about stories and and just trying to and and she just very quietly sat there and

typed stuff the whole entire time now i looked at this at the time as tammy shy like and i i don't know i couldn't tell you who tammy dabel was i don't know her i didn't know her um i i would you know from listening to a lot of what happened um it she seemed to me like a person that once you get to know her, then she really opens up. And I'm sure that she's in my house. You know, she's, you know, she knows the, the folklore of, you know, this is a guy who went on to do things and all that stuff. And maybe it was intimidating. I don't know. I have no idea. Maybe just being shy, it was just, you know, I don't really have much to say to this conversation because it's not my thing. it's really and so uh you know but i i i um had a tremendous amount of respect for how hard she

worked like i felt like tammy was doing everything like it was like chad was kind of orchestrating and and that was another thing that i observed about chad was i think chad was gifted at getting people to do his work, to do his bidding. Because when, you know, I think, I think he was masterfully good at manipulating people. And so, and I think that's what happened with his kids. I think it's what happened with Tammy. I think it's what happened with Lori and Alex and so many other people. You know, I just, and even me.

You know, because we had a, he came to my house about writing this book. And he was like, and I was, well, I'm talking to Deseret Book, too. And he's like, oh, you don't want to, you know, and he was giving me all the reasons why I shouldn't go with him and why I should go with him and why all of these different things. And, and it wasn't not, you know, it was like, well, I grew up with Chad. You know, so he's Chad from the neighborhood, you know, it's, you know, I should be able to trust him. you know it's it's this local i like the feel of that it's not this big name you're not just some other number to some you know and he really played into all of that so as far as tammy goes i think it maybe maybe it was a way of for her to protect herself against chat and again i'm

speculating here that she if if i just lay low around him and i kind of do my thing when i'm not around him then it works for our relationship. I don't know. But I certainly, there was a definite, Chad, trying to pull the strings mentality. And I saw that then.

I agree with them. I don't know. I think the analysis is accurate. But I think in many ways, Tammy was subservient. And, I mean, I think that's what Scott's talking about. And it was clear,

that Chad was in control, right? That in many ways this would be kind of a typical, well, typical in the sense that Chad would run the house, but atypical in the sense that his wife wouldn't be able to speak a single word for over two months. Not speaking a single word for two months, knowing what I know about Tammy Daveau. All I can think is someone said to her, do not talk.

I got this just the same way that Heather Daybell was told by Chad don't address Tammy. If he said that to them, I just wonder what he's saying to her. Like, look, you know, and I think Chad was the one intimidated by you, let's be honest. He got the book deal.

You know, he got the book deal. Deserate book didn't. he wasn't going to lose this. He was going in with Tammy and he was saying to her, don't say anything. Like, you know, and I'll call it what I see.

And that's what I think. And I think it was coercive control. I think he controlled. I've said it before I said it during trial. I think he controlled his family in many ways like a cult, like totally controlling them. Which is the same dynamic, I think that put him on the path.

towards murder. Yeah. I just wanted to explore that because it was shocking to hear that for two and half months this woman sat there, not saying it wasn't normal. It wasn't a normal dynamic. And at the time, I just thought, well, she's shy. It almost felt like she had like a deadline. Like I don't have time talking to any people. I'm just type away kind of thing. And because it, it, but it was, at the time noticeable and then later on you kind of connect all these dots and you go well okay that makes sense

of how the dynamic probably really was I'm going to say this too because we need to remember I still have not finished reading what most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions pulling details about you from public records and the internet and then packaging and selling it

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About how he became a visionary. Right. And how his brain had been opened up to seeing into the future. He explains how he got this gift. And I'm one of the examples of him seeing into the future. And this is not the truth. This is actually not how things happen. All right.

Let's read it now. We couldn't get past the fact that he called you as friend. You know, that's stuff this in our time. I think, yeah. Well, friend, but, you know, I gave him acknowledgement of what a wonderful job he did in writing my book. Do you have any Ted Dable stories from school?

Do any things that stand out? So here's one thing that stood out to me. I recently was going, I have, million photos from from from little league football all the way through high school college professional i mean tons of photos and i was going through a rather significant amount of them organizing and what have you and i came across the photo from my senior year of high school it was our team basketball pitcher so there's the team coaches and the managers and sitting on the floor with his legs folded is one of team managers for my senior year and it's chat and what struck me was i don't even remember

chad dabel being a manager on our basketball team when i was in high school and that's that's my recollection is that it was he was forgettable i mean i knew who he went like i didn't you know again i was focused on playing basketball my teammates on the team the coaches but i couldn't i could tell you the coaches were i could tell you the players were but i couldn't tell you the players were but i couldn't tell you who the managers and I'm like oh my goodness Chad Daybell is one of the managers on our on our basketball team those are the memories that I have from him when I when I was I don't have memories that's that's that's a really pertinent story in the sense that I think that's that's that explains exactly why Chad Dayball started heading in the wrong direction

because he wanted to be memorable He thought that he was special. He thought that he should be memorable. And the fact that Scott Mitchell is now sitting in our table saying, I don't remember the guy. He never stood out. He was, right? He wasn't memorable.

He was, he was one of the managers on my basketball team senior year. And I don't even recall that. That would be a nightmare for Chad Dable to hear that story. Does anyone else find themselves saying, I feel way older than I actually am or I feel way younger. Did you know there might be some truth behind that feeling? That's where true diagnostic comes in. With their true age test, you can discover your true biological age, plus get insights into health risks for heart disease or Alzheimer's, even your mortality. I just ordered my true diagnostic test and while nervous, I'm looking forward to what

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Plus, if you subscribe, you'll get an additional 20% off. Discover your true age today. Now, one thing... Disappointing. No, yeah. One thing that I do remember was, like, you know, we all take your... We took the ACT test, college exam.

And I was with my friends the night before we were supposed to study. and we spent almost a whole night studying for this and i think we ended up in the backyard jumping on a trampoline something like like we didn't we didn't take it that serious serious but what i remember was that chad dabo scored a perfect score on that test that's the memory i have like if you if you're going to go well who's chad dabo i i vaguely remember that he was on a student council i didn't know that he was our manager on a basketball team and he had a perfect score in the ACT test. And beyond that, from my experience in high school, I don't remember anything else. And I think that's part of the issue is that he perceived himself to be a memorable person, a special person. His biggest fear,

though, was in his book, and you talked about this in our original podcast episode, where he stated, there's not a single, he was at BYU, and he said, there's not a single, he was at BYU, and he said, there's not a single person that knows who I am. I'm looking for that, which is why I'm looking down. Oh, John's got this book memorized. Okay, just talking about that. When I started college, here. You brought this up back in early 2020.

When I started college at BYU that fall, I continued to live at home, but it was admittedly a lonely time. My friend had gone to Utah Valley State College on a basketball scholarship, and so we really didn't cross paths too often anymore. I had other friends at BYU, but they were very busy. Many of them left on their missions. I vividly remember walking across the BYU campus during a January snowstorm and thinking, quote, there isn't a soul on earth who cares what I'm doing right now, end quote. John writes in the little side here about Chad motif for his life.

Yeah, and I think that's what we're talking about is that, you know, he could be very disappointed to know that you didn't remember that he was the manager, right? Don't worry, he can't come after you. As far as I know, he's behind bars right now. He's got bigger concerns right now. Although he may listen to this. You know, here's an, it's an interesting thought because we had class reunions and fairly well attended.

You know, people have different opinions about. Am I ever going to go to a class reunion or? Yeah. And a good number of people in our class would attend. Then we had, I think it was our 30th, which was two years short of our 50th birthday. So everyone said, do you guys want to do you guys? want to get together in two years. It's not a reunion, but we're all turning 50 in that year. So let's, we can have a party celebrating that we're turning 50. And this was right around the time

they wrote the book. It was after I wrote the book. And so we have a photo from our 50th, semi, not quite fifth, fifth year, you know, every five year reunion. So it was between 30 and 35. And he's in the picture. And I'm not talking, because Chad didn't, so we're at this party. We're all out hanging around. And I never, he never comes up to me. He never says anything. But he's on the back row.

And as you talk about this nothingness. And I remember purposely going, because I'm tall, right? Now he stick me on the back row. And I said, you know what? I'm getting in the front row. I'm tired of being on the back row. and I just kind of jokingly so I knelt down you know so you want to be acknowledged for exactly and and here was Chad on the back row kind of hiding and this would have been the summer

of 2018 so it would have been shortly before he met Lori and I would imagine oh boy because like I've just lived my life right I I did I haven't thought much. I mean, I do from time, time, think about my life. And from time, you know, I actually tried to figure out actually how many people know who I am. Just because, so if you play in the NFL, we play for the Miami Dolphins. I don't know, there's 21 million people that live in Florida and maybe five, seven million or Miami Dolphin fans. So they know who, so there's seven million people in Florida that potentially know who I am. Michigan is, you know, NFL fans, fans, whatever. Biggest loser, you know, they probably have three, four million people tune in to

the biggest loser. So, you know, there's probably 20 million people in the world potentially that might know my name, right? And you go places and people go, I know who you are. Or you get recognized. I have people send me fan mail. And I'm just living my life, right? I'm just a dad. I do my thing. and and yet there's this other part of me like you're well known and and you can't help but go well that's kind of cool like human nature is like I mean you just you know you're not it's not beyond you to go it makes you feel kind of special to be recognized it sure stinks when they kick you out and you're no longer important like it's a hard it's a hard pill to swallow so in some regards my life kind of went the opposite way maybe from chad where it was like you're well

known to you get older and then no one cares but there is this side of you that they can get very intoxicated with being famous i would imagine that there's some notoriety that's happened from what you guys are doing you know there's a level of hey we know i know i know who you are like when you guys reached I'm I know who you guys were and and so I could imagine for Chad being nobody cipher in the snow at BYU to starting to talk at these prepper conferences people coming up to you oh you have a publishing company oh you and seeing Julie row near death experiences and go well I'll make up my own near death experiences and I'll become even more popular and I'll start telling I can spend these lies into the truth and and you can get intoxicated with being

relevant for being and and I can imagine because don't we all want that don't we all want to be loved and and and to what extent would we go to actually have someone think we're amazing and and I can I can imagine that is that unfolded and and it had to have been the crowning moment for Chad when Lori goes like like for him that must have just been probably more than he could have handled to have felt such a zero at one moment and then someone you know fame notoriety whatever level yeah you know that the human ins you know that just our human nature inclination i i've felt it in my life i mean it's cool when people like it is isn't, you know, so I can imagine what that was like for Chad. Not trying to defend anything,

but just the human nature of it all. Well, I think that's actually a great segue to the question you asked that John was about to answer and then I cut you guys off, honestly, is how did he get there? Like, how would he, what was the exact question? It was about Lori. Like, you know, we all understand attention maybe from the opposite sex, feeling good. Like, like, what how did he get to murder was that the question or is some yeah because so like i i can understand a lot of this because people don't die you know like him going off the rails right but i can't i can't wrap myself around what at what point did he get where he's like okay i'm gonna i'm gonna i'm gonna kill some people because there was planning that went on there was thought there was

discussion, this went over time, people were shot at who didn't die. Right. You know, they, they were aware of things long before, you know, a lot of them happened. And, I mean, I have kind of a theory on it, but, but I just, in my mind, I'm just like, how do you get to that point? Well, let's hear your theory. I think, you know, all the dynamics we've been talking about, I think they're all relevant. the fantasy piece about the fiction

and fiction versus fact piece the need for kind of attention and fame I think all of these play a role you know in terms of actually getting to the point of murder though I don't maybe we haven't gotten there yet but yeah I'd love to hear so I think the murder part for me so Chad and Lori are going back and forth he's in Idaho she's in Arizona

then she kind of like like the sparks of a budding new romance you know there's just nothing more just exhilarating in life than to be in love the text just you're familiar with the text right yeah the cringingeworthy right i think i think i saw this thing from uh mike meyers where he goes like he he described his character in austin powers and he goes he goes like romance is just and and sex it's just it's corny right but it isn't in private so he tried to make it in as austin powers and it was kind of as cringeworthy as austin powers you know that was but it was very cringy and and and so um so he they're going back and forth right and and i think lorry was off the rails like mentally i think i think there's she had some mental health issues for sure and

But the one who was willing to murder was Alex, to me. Like he's the one that baby didn't have as much of a conscience about it. Yeah. And I think when Chad, because they were kind of going back and forth and Lori was kind of telling him, you know, just go be with your wife. And, you know, and when Charles was murdered, I think Chad goes, oh, like this is serious. Like, it's kind of like, okay, she's done her part now.

And now, and now it's my part, part. And I don't want to be disrespectful to anyone because, you know, these are people's lives that have been destroyed, you know, and I don't want to callously talk about this. But, but it, you know, just thinking through it all. um so chat all of a sudden goes wow she's serious like this is this is real but i think chat also and maybe he realized look what i manipulated someone into doing and because i think i think Alex was the was the was the was the was the trigger man in all of it I think it was even so with

tamy yeah and because I was like I don't think Chad is I think he's not strong enough I think he would be too cowardly to do it on his own I think he'd need to um enlist help and and and I think he And so it goes back to that. He's really good at getting people to do what he's not powerful or capable or strong enough to do, which sounds terrible, that you're strong enough. But he could get someone else to do it for him. I think that's what ultimately happened that he saw Lori. And he goes, okay, this is serious. I'm going to do this, but I can't really do it.

So I'm going to get Alex to do it or at least help me do it. And so then I'm kind of not doing it on my own. But I think he was in and so. When you when you say get it in this particular instance, you're talking about Tammy. Well, and just all. So I think he saw Lori kill Charles. So he goes, okay, she's in.

Now I got to be in. Right. Because he still has a wife. Yeah. And he can't divorce her because then he's not a good LDS. He's not a profit. He's all the, you know, it's, it's, it goes back to if, if I divorce my wife, I'm that zero in the snow at BYU. Yeah. And, and so he can't be that person. Yeah, I'm just, I'm spitballing here. I don't, I don't come here with any authority. No, I'm just a guy that just kind of speculates. You're doing great. I'm a little worried. I'm a little worried.

that he's going to start a true crime podcast. I will guarantee. No, I'll do a true sports. Okay. So he feels like, okay, I'm in. But I just don't, because, I mean, Alex tried to shoot Tammy. So it wasn't like, you know. And then Chad can just kind of wash his hands of everything and be clear of it.

And I think with the children, I think what happened there is, I think I think I, I really believe Alex killed all of them. And I think when they were trying to dispose of Ty Lee that it was messy, and it was a lot longer, and it was going to draw a lot more attention to his neighbors and his neighborhood. And I think they go,

that's, and maybe they just look like this too much. So JJ was taken care of in a totally different way. And for the life of me, why he buried them on his property unless he really was trying to spin the narrative even more to say, well, I didn't really kill him. They were zombies.

And so we want to preserve them. We want them around us. We want them near. You know, that to me, I guess, could be the, the narrative that he was trying to convince himself of. You know, I don't, I don't, you know. Yeah, it's not totally clear. I think some of it had to do with control, just wanting to feel like he knew where the bodies were.

And he knew if there was evidence, he could move it or control it, right? Some of it could be that with the bodies in his backyard, it reminded him of his power. That he felt like they were trophies. You know, serial killers often collect trophies from there. This was some version of that. It was someone's driver's license. Yeah. Yeah.

Right. Yeah. I wonder, too, if it isn't that same mindset of I'm smarter than everyone else. True. Yeah, for sure. Like, who buries them in their backyard? It's brilliant. I'm so smart. Who's going to look there? I drove by his house and before the kids were found. And he was home. And I literally, I was 10 seconds from getting out of the car and walking to the front door. and just saying hey chat i'm you know i just happened to be in the neighborhood thought i'd drop in and say hi and i almost did it and i was i was literally on that that south end of the property and i was like i was like i was looking right there and they were right there and no one even knew it at

the time it was so if you did drop by i presume you would have taken your cell phone out without him knowing and turn on record and you would have elicited a confession right it might have worked Scott Mitchell might have been he would have been so stunned to see it it wouldn't have been a fluffy conversation no you would have called him out I know you I don't know you well but I know you well enough now to know that you would have said be honest yeah come on where are the kids yeah yeah I think you would have been stunned I mean that's an amazing story that that you would so concerned about it. I mean, did, did you go up there to be the property or what, why were you?

I just happened to be up at Yellowstone and I was like, okay, I know, you know, it was just like, well, I'm in the neighborhood. Yeah. I drove all the way from Utah to right. Idaho. I might as well stop in, but yeah, I didn't. When that makes me wonder, I mean, I know how you feel now, but when the news hit, and you've stated you would have never thought the Chad Daybill you knew was capable of this, you know, hindsight's 2020. When it hit the media, did you realize something was not good? Because some people stood by him until the children were found. So initially, when Tammy died, I got a text message. And because again, you just, in a small town, everyone, I got a text message. Hey, Chad Daybill's

wife, Tammy died last night. And ever, because we're not supposed to be dying right now. You know, and it's one of our classmates. And we, you know, it's like, oh. And so you're just, you're sad. Then a couple weeks later, it's like, Chad got remarried. And then you're like, oh. And then you're like well and then and then and now he's gone and now he and these kids are gone and and at first when it started unraveling and it wasn't hard to put the dots together and any logical person would go okay this there's no way no way her husband dies and kids go and his wife it's there's just no and then Alex dying but in my mind I was kind of like okay Chad's in this alternate universe right he's in this prepper this this alternate religion religious view and i and my initial

thought that i carried for a long time was they've hid these kids there's some compound there's some underground railroad of people networking together and they're protecting these kids for for a decent amount of time that's what i really thought and then i was i was i was i was i was i was i was i was on Dateline with Keith Morrison and they interviewed me and the one of the producers he's like they have a mountain of digital forensic evidence on the two of these people and then I'm like oh and then he actually texted me and he goes they're going to Chad Daybell's house in a half an hour or 10 minutes or or something like that, and they believe the kids are there. And then it's just like, just crazy.

But to be married in such a short time after his wife had passed away, that's when the initial red flags go up and you're just like, yeah. And then you're like, there's no way. Like this is Chad Debo. Like, there's no way that this, there's no way that this is that. that this is that way. And having the interaction that I had with Chad, writing the book and all that,

I was like, there's no way that, no way. And then you get into it, and I followed it. I followed you guys. I watched every last bit of it. Then you go, there's no way he didn't do it.

Like you, you're just totally, you're just, totally flipped around so initially you were you were like Jeffrey Dahmer's neighbor who said he's the nicest guy I've ever met yeah he could never do that and and yes and not only that and again you grow up in a small town people don't do that in a small it just it just doesn't happen and it really probably does happen but but not to you not to your neighborhood not from where you're from.

And to see that happen, but I've lived in the world, right? I'm not naive. I'm not, I've seen and heard about everything. And so you don't put anything past anyone, no matter where the circumstance, who they are,

where they grew up, how they appear in public. You know, what would be the superpower of all superpowers is to see, okay, this is how this person really is, right? To just have that, yeah, yeah, to really the true serum, you know, Wonder Woman's golden lasso, you know, just put it on people is like, you can't lie to me. I know, I know what you're up to. That'd be great for true crime podcast hosts to have that superpower. I know not only were you Jeffrey Dahmer's neighbor,

you had Jeffrey Dahmer publish your book. Right. Right. Could you imagine. Okay, look, his house, his apartment smelled a little funny. I didn't know what it was at the time. I'm not familiar with that smell, but now I know I know exactly what it is. But just really quick on the other side of this, I don't want to live my life looking at every person going, oh, you're Chad Dayba.

You know, I want to hope for the best in people. I want to hope that people can find goodness in them and not, you know, every person's got this terrible, you know, dark secret that we don't know about. it's a big difference between covering sports and covering true crime, by the way, right? Like sports, the narrative in most sports events is somebody wins. They often they win heroically.

Like there's always sports usually has a feel good story. Right. You know, whereas in true crime, not so much. Yeah. These don't end particularly well. But the folks tune into true crime. Well, they do. We love the train wreck.

We love to see just, you know, like, look, I'm in your house. in you know here and I drove here yeah talk about this right and like and we're grateful thank you for doing but it's but it's fascinating even if it wasn't personal if I didn't have a connection to it it's still fascinating to me I and maybe that's just the sick sad part of us as a society but it's fascinating to see what we're capable of human as human I agree and I and that sense I think true crime is sort of the other end of sports I mean I know there's some sports stories that aren't great with, you know,

sometimes athletes get violent or right. There's, there's those types of stories, but. Can we cover Tonya Harding one day, for example? We may have to collaborate with Scott on that one. I don't know. That's, yeah, that's. Maybe we're a true,

a true crime sports podcast. We'll talk about that later. Okay. Let me tell you about crime. All right? Every year when I was in the NFL, you would have, you'd start training camp,

and it was boring. You'd have all these meetings. And you'd have all of these meetings because I think there were 359 crimes committed by 1,600 NFL players in an offseason. And part of it was young, dumb and have money and time. Like in the offseason, you could do whatever you wanted. So it's just a recipe for disaster.

Not only that, it's like no one says no to, they just don't say no to professionally, whatever you want. Right. Whatever you want to do, you're above the law, you're all of these things. I mean, if you want, you know, actually mixing true crime in professional sports would be the perfect storm. Yeah. I just watched the thing on Steve McNair. You know, it's the anniversary of when he was murdered.

you know, Ray Carruth murdered his girlfriend because she was pregnant. I mean, it's horrific. There's, you know, sports is definitely not immune to it. Yeah, you're right. I mean, I think there's

there's a mix of elements there that are potentially combustible, you know, fame, money, entitlement, right? There's all these elements. And, you know, and like it or not, you're going to get those. things so I'm sure you had to deal with some of those issues too yeah and they

would try to steer you clear of that they'd they'd do these they'd act out these scenarios like they'd have actors come in and they go okay so here's a situation and you could potentially get your and and what they would say is these are actual events that have happened to NFL players and so they and and you kind of laughed at them, but then you realize, no, this really happened. This isn't hypothetical. Wait, wait, just so I'm clear about this. I want to wrap my mind around this.

So was this with Miami? Every team. Everything. It was a league mandate that you had, you had to have, I don't know, I guess they would be HR meetings over like the proper way to handle situation. And they would tell us, they go, you guys are, you have a bullseye. You're a target for everyone. And now that we're talking about it, I have to bring, this is in your book, by the way.

You had one of those moments. I'm trying to remember which one. You were having a hard time in Detroit. Oh. And a fan told you. There were four fans, actually. Four fans, right. Well, it wasn't entirely clear, but you said, yeah, we're four fans.

One of them said you suck. Right. And given the fact that you had all of these issues going on at the time and, I snapped. You snapped. You want to tell the story? Sure. Okay.

Because this is completely relevant to those HR at reenactments. We played a Thanksgiving game every year in Detroit. It's the only game in town. It's a great game to be a part of. After the game got over, my family would watch the game in a suite, the top of the stadium. Game gets over, you get dressed, you talk to the media, your family's waiting outside the locker room and you go home. So I go do all this.

I go outside the locker room. I can't find my family. I want to go home. I'm tired. I want to go home. So I'm like, well, maybe they're still up in the suite. So I go up in the elevator to the top of the stadium. I start walking down one of the corridors where all the fans are.

There are still fans left in the stadium, not many. And as I'm walking, I'm like, this probably isn't a good idea. It's like, like you don't really interact with the fans. like without, you know, being on the field or, you know, there's some security there. And just as I thought this, I passed four guys. They're walking in the opposite direction of me. And they recognize me. They go, Mitchell, you suck.

And right as I said that, I was turning to go into the suite where my family was, my family wasn't in there. And so I'm just like, it just, I just snapped. I'm just like, I'm tired of these fans and so I turn around. and by now they're kind of further down the corridor. I chase them down the corridor, four guys and me, and they go in a bathroom. So they don't know I'm behind them. They don't know that I'm chasing them.

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It just goes in and angles and angles back. So I'm standing in the opening, and there's no one in the bathroom. There's no other door. There's no, there's, and I just make a general statement. does anybody in here have a problem with me? And it was like out of a Western, in synchronized fashion, the four doors kick open. And these guys walk out of these stalls and they look at me and they go, yeah, we have a problem with you. And I go, so I get into this conversation.

And this guy says, you want to hit me, don't you? And I'm like, I do. Like, I really do. And I really was. And I was like, I know I'm probably going to die today. But I'm going to go down swinging. And I'm going to take on all four of these guys by myself. And I don't know if it was real.

I don't know if it was an angel. But in the corner of the bathroom where nobody was, there was a janitor. And he had his cart. But he hadn't, he wasn't there before. And they had come out of all the stalls. He wasn't in and he wasn't there. And he just said, you need to leave. He says, Scott, you need to leave right now.

And I was like, you're right, I do. And I just turned her and walked away. And I found out later that they don't clean the bathrooms. They don't clean the stadium right after the game. And especially on Thanksgiving, people are they just they just leave it so no one should have even been there and so i have a guardian angel that's a janitor i guess but i really i had snapped i had you know because you get harassed like people you hear you know you get poohed you get you know that's just part of the deal

but i just i just heard it this day and i just just from everything that was going on i i lost it and I don't know what would have happened because I was I was like there was no there was nothing holding me back there was no filter I was all into like brawl and I'm not if I've never been in a fight in my life like and I didn't even know what I was doing but I was I was going to go duke it out with a bunch of drunk fans in a bathroom yeah I when when I was reading that story I thought for first of all I thought you were going to actually get into the fight because you were so. Oh, I was gone. I was gone.

And as someone who's dealt with a lot of criminals, I mean, like, I know what that means. Like, it's hard to exercise and they were straight. Once you get that point, you're just, yeah. I thought, oh, no. And so when I was reading and I thought, this is, this is going to be the end of his career. Yeah. You know, if you took that swing, your life trajectory probably would have changed. Yeah. No question. And, um, and so.

part of that moment is what separates a criminal or a felon from someone who's not. Having the ability to have in that moment, whether there's a janitor there or not, whether that's your conscience, whatever it is, having that ability to reflect or to have the self-awareness to walk away is what separates you or any, you know, any person that doesn't become involved in crime from the criminal who's just going to be impulsive and they're going to get caught up in that moment and they're not going to have that moment where their conscience kicks in on my own i would not have walked away like i there was there was no there was no there was no there was no there was no like this is the little angel and this

a little devil on i wasn't going back i was in i was i was i went down that hall away and I was I was all in and and had I I again I don't know what it was but I know there's somebody said something to me you need to walk away so you don't think it was the HR actors all that training I've had all that training to walk away training would have said Scott don't get any elevator and go up in the stadium right after a game and interact with the fans, that's not a good thing to do. Right. The training failed way before that moment, I guess, yeah.

I want to finish what I started towards the beginning of this interview and read what Chad Deabel said about you in his book. And you are a sports commentator. You are trained to comment. So feel free to chime in as I read this.

I won't read the part where we started. He is not your friend. We've got that down. He says, we were definitely friends. You're like, no, I wasn't his friend. He and I were often on the same basketball and baseball teams. His dad, Bill, was usually our coach. He starts sharing about how Miami Dolphins then drafted you in 1990,

and you spent three years as Dan Marino's backup. When Dan suffered a season-ending injury in the 1993 season, Scott came in and led the team to several victories. He became a free agent and signed with the Detroit Lions, where he teamed up with the Hall of Fame running back and Barry Sanders for several seasons. One of my favorite Thanksgiving Day memories was in 1995. When Scott led the Lions to a comeback victory over the Minnesota Vikings,

he threw more than 400 yards and four touchdowns that day, and everyone in Springville was smiling. Hometown hero, though, I can see. He ended his career with the Baltimore Ravens and the Cincinnati Bengals before moving to Orlando, Florida, and doing well in the world of real estate. It seemed he had left Springville behind for good. But after I formed Spring Creek Books in 2004, though, I began having dreams that involved publishing a book with Scott. I would have them every month or so out of the blue.

It's got to make you feel weird, right? I don't think that happened, but okay. Yeah. Like, I'm pretty sure it didn't happen, but. There was one very strange part to the dreams. Scott was really skinny, almost like we were in high school. That really stood out to me because after his NFL career, Skinny is not a word you would have to use to describe Scott.

He had gained a lot of weight. This is the part. That's a lie. Okay. So what happened is I would go back to Utah for our reunions. So it's every five years. And I'd run into Chad. And I said, Chad, I understand you started a publishing company.

I'd really like to talk to you about writing a book. And he was like, never, ever reached out to me, never acknowledged, never said, he never said, oh, yeah, that'd be great. Yeah, let's do it. Never once did that ever happen. And when I retired from the NFL, I was not heavy. and when I live I played basketball three days a week at the YMCA every like super competitive basketball I didn't actually gain weight until 2009 2010 which was almost 10 years after when I moved back to

Utah and I started drinking a lot of soda pop and stopped exercising and my it was just weird it was I don't know what it was. It was just like, and I put on weight quickly, but it wasn't until a long time after I actually retired. And it was, it was really only three or four years before I went on the biggest loser. It wasn't like immediately after my career was over. Okay. So.

Lies, lies, lies. There's probably a bit of projection there, too. It's not like Chad was staying thin, you know, in his middle years. The dreams were, just to interpret, the dreams were actually conversations. Right. Right. His dreams were conversations he was having that you were starting, not Chad. And Chad was actually dismissing them. In 2008, so this again, you were thin at this time.

He surprised everyone when he moved from Florida and accepted the job as football coach at Springville High. That's kind of neat. You did that. He coached for four years and led the program back into prominence. It was an amazing experience. That's neat. Meanwhile, his weight kept increasing. No, it just started to.

So, just so you know, coaching high school football players is brutal. And someone told me, look, their brains aren't fully developed, so they're susceptible to doing really stupid things. And it's what got me through coaching. It really did. That and a lot of pizza. Just as an aside, the brain of our seven years. year old isn't fully developed either and it too requires some pizza yeah to manage you just you just that's how i just had to roll with it like yeah they're just going to do dumb things right you know

john understands in other words well the sad thing for me like i've had my brain examined so i went through some extensive like two days very long grueling with all the ct and all everything that's going on was that mandatory by the way uh it was it was It was something that they offered with this settlement and all this stuff. Okay. Gotcha. And unfortunately, they, or fortunately, it just depends on the day of the week. I have a perfectly normal brain.

So all the dumb things I do, I do it with a full conscious, with a full compliment of my brain. I have no excuse for the dumb. My idiocy is just, I own it. And I used to go, hey, look, I've been hitting the head a lot. so I may not remember this or I may not do this right. And I can't use that now because it's been proven I have a normal brain. I can't believe we're disclosing that publicly now because there have to be some days where you're like, look, it's the CTE. Oh, believe me, I want to so badly.

I'm just like, oh, boy. Like there's something really. Well, Chad Daywell doesn't have that excuse either. No. Yeah. Maybe he got hit in the head with a shovel while he's digging a grave. I don't know. I have no idea.

Yeah. He can't say he was in the head when it was managing your basketball team. After, let's see, after Scott moved back to Springville, we talked a few times about publishing his life story. The timing didn't feel right, though. Plus, my vision of a skinny Scott was just not possible. It would take an absolute miracle for him to match what I had seen. It's all just a lot of.

Just so bad. It's just also very self-important. Then Scott's dad, Bill, passed away from obesity-related issues, and Scott had several meaningful experiences that indicated he needed to change his life. Scott had ballooned to 366 pounds and he could see himself following his father's path. He decided to audition for the TV show The Biggest Loser and was accepted as a cast member. He soon became the focal point of the season as he confronted. family and personal challenges.

Scott was on his way to losing 124 pounds and he miraculously looked like the guy I had seen in my dreams many years earlier. When there were two episodes of the show left to air, I felt a strong prompting to contact Scott. There's a lot of eye language in here. I, I, I sent him a Facebook message asking,

quote, is it time we finally do your book? End quote. Is that true? No. Okay. No, he just knocked on my door one day. He quickly responded that he had been having the same impression. Is that true that you'd have the same impression? He happened to be in Utah.

Did I mean that Chad was going to write my book? I'd been called from Desiret book. So you've been reached out by a main publisher. He happened to be in Utah for a short break before the biggest loser finale. So I went to his home and showed him the variety of books Spring Creek had produced over the year. So that's when he knocked on your door trying to sell you on him and not Desireate book. Which was the first time he reached out to me. Which was the first time he reached out. Can I go back really quick? Please.

So he said I bloomed up to 366 pounds. It was really 350 pounds. And I went to the biggest loser and I found out what my weight was when I got there. And so I was there for two weeks before the show started. So I thought I better get in training. So I literally was eating. a house like every day trying to gain weight so that I could win, right? You have to be big in order to lose more. So when I go on the show, the very first episode, and they weigh me, I have no idea how much weight I've gained in the last two weeks. And they go, your starting weight is 365 pounds.

And my initial reaction was like, yes, I've gained weight. Like, I can win this thing. And then I realize, I'm like, oh, that's terrible. Oh, how could you do this? This is so, oh, my goodness. So, you know, and so it was kind of a funny because at the end of the day, the biggest loser is a reality TV game show. Someone wins a prize at the end of the show. And I wanted to win.

I'm not, I'm not kidding. So kind of a little. So I wasn't 365 pounds, as he said there. I was actually 350. As you point out in your book that most of the winners are able to lose half their body weight. Right. And you can't really compete with that. No.

They told me when I went on the show you can't win, basically. You're like, watch this. Well, they said if you can be conniving and get rid of the really heavy people, then you can win. I mean, that's, and I tried, but I wasn't very conniving because all the very heavy people ended up winning the show. So you probably haven't been recruited by Survivor yet. So I actually had a dream. Speaking of people having dreams. Here's your dream.

This is my dream. This is where my mind is. So I had a dream that the biggest loser was starting a new reality TV show, and it was the naked biggest loser. And so they called me, this is my dream. So they called me and they said, Scott, could you please come out here and help our contestants and show them that they need to be vulnerable, and it's okay to be naked on the stage, and could you show them how to be naked? This was my dream.

So I said, yeah, what's wrong with these people? So I go out to California and I go out there in my birthday suit. And I said, see, it's not a big deal. So just let yourself be totally vulnerable to all these people in the world. They're going to blurt out the bad parts anyways. You'll be fine. And that was my dream. So you're the visionary.

So I'm not sure if it was a dream or if it became reality or, you know, the line between fantasy and reality has been very blurred for me. So what I'm hearing is when they come up with, they combine naked and afraid with the biggest loser, you'll be like, I'm the visionary, Chad. That was my idea. That was, no, that was your dream. Even better.

I'm thinking we didn't find a producer to put that together now. Yeah. Yeah, that's okay. We've digressed. No, that was good. That was good. What happens when you start reading Chad Daybell? Yes.

So you, so here. we are. He goes to your house to pitch this to you, aka. Bague you. Other publishers were interested in his story, of course. And Scott listened to their offers. That was actually happening before he showed up. He waited nervously for a few days. I waited nervously for a few days, Chad says, for him to make his decision. But he finally called me and said, let's go for it. We took an unusual route in producing Scott's book. We had a court reporter come to Scott at home. I would love to talk to this court reporter now. Wow.

He really opened up and shared a lot of things I'd never known before. I would occasionally ask him questions when we needed clarification, but for the most part, he just talked to the key moments of his life, such as how an answered prayer led him to intend the University of Utah instead of BYU. I'm a youth, so well done. Seven hours later, we essentially had the book's contents.

we came up with the fitting title alive again is that true seven he had the book contents and he came up with the title alive again um actually i think it was well the title came from me that was my the whole idea was my right and i said and i even said just the whole transformation process and i'd like to show kind of that be the book you know this this how how we can we can become alive again how we can overcome. And so that was all for me. Yeah, seven hours, no. That was, it was, it was multiple days with the,

with the court reporter. And then once we had the manuscript, it was, it was a long process of actually, because you got, you got the essence of the stories or the dialogue or whatever. And so then just kind of correcting my poor speech and all of those things, it took some time. Scott spent a couple of weeks adding stories and refining the text while I double-checked game scores and other details.

I'm so happy with how the book turned out. He included several spiritual experiences you would not have expected from a tough football player. His perception of a tough football player, I might say. See, I would read that as Chad saw me as a dark spirit. You wouldn't expect that from a dark spirit. Like, you wouldn't get spiritual stories from, because I wasn't included. in the 144,000 that he i wasn't on his list does that take you off with the competitive side of me a little bit you know i want i want to look i want to be chosen who doesn't right i don't

i don't want to i don't want to be left out i don't want to be i don't want to be labeled a dark spirit well how do you know you weren't in the 144 is it because he didn't recruit you so this one it's an interesting question okay there's your book and there's the picture of You two together in his book. So you maybe have Scott. This was, this was at the spring football game at the University of Utah.

They allowed us to, to sell my book. I was peddling my wares at the spring football game. Did you sell a few copies? A few. I didn't really, I really didn't, if I was really,

in my mind, if I, like if okay, I'm really serious about writing a book and publishing it, I would have gone to someone like Deseret book just right off the bat. It really wasn't the main focus was just writing it.

I wasn't trying to sell it, promote it. I really didn't have a strategy or plan or anything with it. I'd do it completely different if I was going to do it again. But I do, let's go full circle again. We already touched on this. But I do have issues. It's intriguing to me because your book is really good. It's really interesting.

It's really compelling. Your story is fascinating. and after this, this could have been, I guess what I'm saying is this could have been Chad Daybell's moment, right? If he was smart, he'd be like, hey, this is something I should really promote, really get out there. And instead, he says to you, hey, peace out. I'm moving to Idaho.

Oh, and now I'm going to write my own autobiography. And it just seems like he sort of just, you know, just, you guys had Costco. You had books at Costco. That's like pretty good. I'm pretty sure Julie Roe, or maybe I shouldn't say that. Let's hope Julie Roe was never at Costco, but I just, I'm just trying to process this in my brain what he was thinking because it feels like Chad Deva lost an opportunity there. Well, yeah, because I was excited about what was happening and where it was going, and it was so out of the blue. There was not a hint of, hey, I just want you to be aware of.

I'm considering moving. or it was just literally got a phone call and that and it was over that was it was just done and i was disappointed in that because that's not how he portrayed things to be that's not what we had agreed to and and i was hoping that you know he would would be able to do more um i i want to go back to something john said in in relation to this about you know well how do you know you weren't part of the 144,000 or, and we spent a lot of time in my house. And he made mention that he wrote a book about his time in the cemetery. And I was like, well, tell me about it. This is fascinated me. I'd love to hear about this. And he would never share any of it. Never share

anything about the books he had written, never shared anything about the conversations, the thoughts that he had had nothing and that stuff was going on that's what i found out later like this this him moving to idaho was the was the culmination of a lot of years of of having a very alternative lDS perspective and and i just i because i was like why didn't you say anything to me because you didn't say a word to me about any of this and i believe he didn't because he knew how I would respond. Like I really believe, he's like, yeah, I can't, I can't, I don't have the confidence to tell Scott about what I'm doing because he'll call BS on me.

Because, you know, because, and I think that's why I was, you know, why he never shared any of it. And there was time. You know, I think about spending hours in someone's house. Like, you can at least tell me about your, your cemetery book, you know, and he goes, oh, it's quite fascinating. I'm like, well, what's fascinating? Tell me about it. I'm here telling you my life.

Yeah. Did you just do a Chad Daybell impersonation that was pretty good? Did I? I think he kind of did. If you... Actually, I have a really good friend that does a really good one. Well, Scott, I'm just kind of... I don't think you should do that.

What are people going to think about it? I didn't just do that. See, that's exactly why he didn't talk to you about it. He didn't feel confident enough to talk to you. But that doesn't preclude you from being on the 144,000. Yeah. Yeah, maybe that file got deleted. I don't know.

I have known. I think if you were, he probably would have reached out to you and recruited you. Yeah. He did say, because I asked him about, Idaho. I go, why are you moving to Idaho? Seriously, why are you going to Idaho? What, what, what, what, what, I mean, no offense to Idaho, but it didn't, and it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was like, is there a job up there? Is there, you know, I would think you'd be more publishing opportunities in a bigger metropolitan area. What, why are you going? And he goes, I just want a simpler life. You goes, I'm going to go live by my brother on, on, on the river. He goes, you should come up here.

You move up here. So we did try to recruit you. He did. Yeah, for a moment. The book, by the way, that you're referring to is called One Foot in the Grave. And it talks about his job as a cemetery sextant. And there's actually, so in your book, you talk about a meeting with a guidance counselor. And was it in high school or it's not, was it early high school?

12. I was in the sixth grade. Sixth grade you were six grade career orientation week yes six great all right so in sixth grade your school was already determined to figure out your career path right okay so yeah i i didn't remember that how old you were but uh you took some tests yes you did some interviews we we reviewed the test with a counselor at the end of the week to determine a career path right he goes your test uh indicate that you're most of likely to be a garbage man or a mortician.

Right. And I'm 12. Like could you like this is my, this is my career. Like this is what I have to look forward to. This is when you want to be a fireman or a policeman. Or a doctor or lawyer or, you know, something exciting. But a garbage man? The most interesting.

So this is the part that interested in me when I read that is that this is, now we're starting to get a little bit of an intersection, which had daybell the cemetery Sexton. So a mortician is not exactly a cemetery sexton, but pretty close, right? Like, the irony of that really stood out to me. Yeah. What, I mean, when you think about it now that you were supposedly, according to your sixth grade guidance counts were supposed to be a mortician, and then you had some version of a mortician help you with your book. And then Here we are talking about a situation where a near mortician committed these horrible crimes. I mean, I just thought that was the chances of these tests finding you to be a mortician are really unlikely.

Well, I also like a janitor is also not a garbage man, but I love that there was a janitor that was your guardian angel too. I recognize that. Well, so how I've come to terms with all that through my life, just my personally, is everyone's always going to have garbage and everyone's dying. So you're always going to have work. You're always going to be employed, you know? So, you know, as a kid, horrible, but as an adult, you go, and it's not a really, you know, if you can get over the people are dead and the garbage stinks, you know, maybe it's a good thing to do. But so Chad, when he was a sexton, he, my dad had passed away. my parents lived in Arizona at the time and we transported my dad back to Utah.

Oh yeah. And he was buried in the cemetery. Okay. And there's a there's a there's a city rate if you're if you're a citizen and then there's a non even though they had this plot for years. And your family did my family did yeah and so I called Chad because they were going to give us the out of town rate and I'm like Chad. like he's like nope this is what the race and I'm like wow you know some some friends you are some you know and I'm like here's the here's the didn't even give you the friend discount didn't even give me and this is in a really you know tender moment of my life he's just like sorry did you're

gonna pay the out of town price my dad who lived in springville for years and I lived in I actually lived in Mapleton at the time so I didn't have a residence in spring ringville and so he's like yeah no can do sorry well a lot of his if it makes you feel better did you end up reading that book because a lot of the the stories he shares in it are pretty cold and he he doesn't seem to have any self-awareness that they are he he shares that there's a weeping mother who comes each night to read a book to her deceased child and she cries and does a story time at her child's grave and then the father comes because Chad had fixed the street light according to Chad, so it didn't shine down where the mother could actually read the book.

And so the husband of this morning mother came and said, could you put that street lamp back down? And he looked at him and said, no. And he said the man walked away, humiliated, embarrassed, and Chad couldn't believe that he would request such a thing. I mean, there are many of those stories that show a very lack of, show a lack of empathy and a lack of self-awareness and not connecting to just being human and helping people. Yeah. And I'm, I didn't know you were going to tell that story about your dad and Chad Daybo.

And so I think it's really important because it does show the lack of empathy, right? Like if we're trying to look at, put all these little pieces together. this is another one. Another example, yeah. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions,

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you to death and it was about a young man who had passed away and if you went to his grave and flashed the lights, the lights would turn on and that was just a story. That's the only thing I remember about growing up was that. That wasn't in his book, but he does talk about people that had not yet gone. Eddie, he referred to a man named Eddie, who hadn't gone

to the spirit world and was in limbo and had been for years. And then finally, Chad said, Eddie, go home and Chad took care of it. After all those years, it just took, it took Chad to let Eddie know. He was good to go. And then Eddie listened. So, so anyway, wow, I am so sorry to happen. You know, yeah, it's interesting how that cemetery, because both my parents are there, my grandparents, and now my aunt and uncle. And I find a lot of peace going there. And I don't see people, I don't talk to people,

I don't see any of that. But I certainly find, you know, a great measure of peace visiting, you know, I leave flowers for my parents and grandparents, you know, and it's a very meaningful thing for me to do. So it, the cemetery to me has actually been, a rather, you know, soulful place, cathartic place. Just, it's been a place of peace, really. Yeah.

It's a beautiful cemetery, too. I'm curious, you know, you've talked, you said that there's been several times where you thought about reaching out to Chad. You almost knocked on his door when the children were missing and, you know, tried to find out what was going on. What would you say to him today? like today, if you could hear you. Okay, so I've had this battle going on,

because there's a part of me that says, okay, if I'm a follower of Christ, that it's not me for, it's not up to me to judge people. He, you know, Christ invites us to visit and to love our enemies, and to visit those who are afflicted and those that are in prison and those who are,

regardless of what's happened. So there's been a side of me that's said, maybe I should do that and reach out just from the sake of, you know, regardless, and all these things you've done that I think are deplorable and horrible.

And I cannot, for the life of me, make any sense of it and if you were my son i i i don't know how i would be i would probably still love my son but but say you've got to own up to this and i think that's the thing it's probably the one that i just say for your eternal soul um so you can have some measure of peace and and and really I think out of respect for all these people in the lives you've just utterly crushed and destroyed that you need to own up to this. And you need to be honest about it. And you need to just say, I did it. It was wrong.

I can't take it back. I'm sorry. And I'll spend the rest of whatever I have in some measure of making amends and making it right. I don't know how you could even do that, but that's what I'd say. You know, look, the charade's up. You got to come clean just for the sake of everyone and for yourself as well. Do you think it would work? No.

No, because I think he's, when I talked about, you know, he just, he lost the line between truth and fantasy. and his fantasy became reality and and so he just lost in whatever whatever fantasy that he's you know perpetrated and and deceive people with and i don't think he knows what i don't think he thinks he's wrong because i i think it when you that whole thing about being at b yu and being nothing yeah and i think if he ever came back to reality i think i think that think it would be too much to realize, especially now. Like, not only am I nothing, but look at all the things that I've destroyed because I am nothing.

I think that would just be too much to bear. So it's easier to just, you know, think that I'm something. Yeah. That's a tough one. One question we get all the time, and I think you're approaching it here with your answers, is people asking us, do you guys think that Chad Debo really believes this stuff? Does Chad Debo really believe that there's zombies that need to be extinguished? Right?

Like, what's your take on that? Stories in the Bible. And if you're LDS, stories in the Book of Mormon are, they're out there, some of them. I mean, it's, you know, some of the, you know, Abraham, who all of, you know, humanity was going to go through Abraham. He was this choice person in the beginning of the Bible. And God said, you need to kill your son. Like to hear that as a human, you go, that kind of goes against conventional wisdom. And Abraham was right at the point of doing it.

Now there's a lot of symbolism behind that and symbolizing that, you know, me as God gave up my son. I sacrificed my son for all of us. So there's some, you know, symbolism in that, okay, if Abraham you're going to have the seed of the world go through you, you have to understand what it's like to give up and sacrifice the son that took forever to get. and it was a miracle to begin with and and abraham said i'm willing to do that and then the you know so so the the the stories um you know there's a story in the the book of mormon about uh in nephi slaying laban and commanded by an angel of god to do that and so there's a lot of you know david slew galah I mean, there's, there's, so you can take stories that I think are beautiful and powerful and very meaningful and deep and rich in the scriptures.

And I think you can turn them and distort them into, you know, I have a, you know, I'm doing it in the name of God. I'm doing it in the name of righteousness. You know, you could argue with jihad, you know, this holy war and, you know, the infidels who have defiled our country or defiled our God that, you know, kill them all, that whole thing is done in the name of God. And I think when you can distort it in your brain to be from our source or from God, then it makes it okay. And it makes it right. And I think that's where Chad went with this. You know, I have the ability to determine who's good and who's bad.

I've been given this special ability to do it. And these people are already dead anyways. And so I think he can take, I just think religion, and I'm a believer, and I'm not, and I never questioned or wavered in my belief or testimony of what I know. And I'm not dissuade by it because of Chad Daybell or any of these things that happen. but I can see how people can use what is good and write and turn it and twist it to fit their narrative.

And whether it's sneaky or conniving or manipulative or maybe they have mental health issues or I don't know, but there certainly is the ability and you've seen it with a lot of people. I mean, and not just people that have gone off the rails who were from the LDS,

faith. There have been other, you know, other terrible tragedies in the name of religion. So you see him as a believer, true believer? No. A true believer of... A true believer of his distorted... Oh, I think he's a believer of what he's created, but certainly, you know, I just don't think God put us here to do what he did. Right, right.

Right. It's not the faith you know. No. You believe that he is a believer in Chad Daybell's belief system that he distorted. Yeah, 100%. I think he took something that's good and he twisted

it in a way to you know, to fit his narrative. He altered what what is true and right and made it his own right to fit his own needs you know you've you've come a long way Scott you know just to sit here at our our table and and and again I want to go back to this point that you said you know there isn't a day that go about a spy that I don't think about what Chad Daybill did and like you know and I think right just knowing that you know

someone that did most egregious most horrendous you know how did we get here um is there anything that you want to talk about yourself or ask John or share while you're here that we haven't yet or did we cover it all? You know, I can't, I can't, I really can't think of anything. I really, I really can't. The things that are on my mind or the things I've thought about or, you know, how did he get to where he was and just, yeah. Yeah, I really don't.

Something else I want to say to, because as a true crime podcast, you listen to us, you know sort of the angle we take and, you know, the angle John takes as his, John's entire career is to try to understand the mind of a criminal and how we got here. And people always say in every episode, but people live difficult lives and they don't become a criminal, right? Like that's a theme and that's true. And so I just also want to point out, you know, in your book you share about some really difficult things in your childhood. And I think one thing for me that I recognize while reading these two books, I mean, it's wild to have both these books in my hand at the same time knowing Chad Dable was a part of both of them. one, you know, his, his, you know, by autobiography, your memoir, same publisher, Chad Dable, been involved in both you two started out in the same place and just how different your lives went.

And I, and I guess it also goes to what you say you think about all the time that you're free and he isn't. And I just think that's like a good, you know, thing to point out, too, that how different lives can go. And I don't, you know, it's something I want to just, I guess it's something we kind of explore on hidden true crime. And I don't understand it. I don't understand how some people can go such a different direction.

I think the huge difference between those two books is that in Scott's book, there's this real desire to understand and to know. And one question you keep asking is, how can I get better? how can I realize my potential? What do I have to do on this journey? Right? Those are questions Chad Debel never asks. Chad Debo in his book, there's always a underlying presumption that he's got the answers.

Right? And so if you read these two books, they're night and day in the sense that, you know, for you, Scott, and I presume this is still true, but there's this, you use the term journey in your book. there's this constant search for ways to improve your life or ways to understand elements of your life at a different level. There's this openness to learning. And that does not exist in Chad Dable's book. So Chad and I came from very similar backgrounds as far as grew up in a two-parent home, grew up in a small community, in the same community.

Right. went to school basically had the same experience with the same religion and and Chad went on an LDS mission I didn't go on a mission at least like I spent a lot of time as a missionary as a professional athlete and served as a missionary for my church there and still do today and I think you know for me to your answer your your your kind of assessment of things christ asked us to come to him with a broken heart and a contrite spirit and that's it and so having that humility and coming to him with that kind of approach allows you to be open to be taught and to be molded and to learn and to become more like Christ.

And if you don't have that, if you don't have that humility, I mean, I'm just speaking about this has been my experience. And, you know, there is, there is this, you know, what I've learned as I've gotten older is that things hit me differently now. so there's constantly this evolution of how I think or and I kind of equate it to the sun like we need the sun to exist and the sun comes up in the morning and the rays that we get from the sun it is that's the morning light you have the directs then you have the evening light but then then the sun moves every day so we get a different so it takes us an entire year of having the sun and we can't just sit out in the sun

like get it all at once right because we just burn and so there's this kind of process of just getting little deposits in your bank every day of just light and in the rays of sun that just kind of enlighten us and teach us and and to really grab you. grasp that, you need the patience and the humility and the recognition of what's actually happening. And I think someone who has all the answers goes, I'm going to go out into the sun, I'm going to stay there. It's all going to hit me at once, and I'm going to get it all right now, and I'm going to have it all right now. And that person burns and withers and dies and is never really nourished and grown completely. So for me, I've just tried to be patient and get those little rays of sunshine as I could.

In the chapter, let me get the chapter here, chapter 23, joy comes through sorrow. You talk about something similar. This is the title of this particular passage is opening my heart. And so this was a passage that really stood out. There were a couple of them here, but this one I want to read. in particular. Quote, in unraveling my life and emotions,

it all really boiled down to one thing. Which, by the way, when somebody gets to the point in a book where they say it's down to one thing, I'm like, I'm paying attention. So here we have the one thing in Scott Mitchell's book. I love this.

I wanted to go back to my childhood home that we lost when I was growing up. I wanted to find that home again, that feeling, that love, and that acceptance, that's all I wanted to find. I mean, you know, that's a beautiful moment in your book. Have you found it? So this home that you're referring to, my parents bought it in 1971 for $10,000. It was an Adobe, originally Dobie home built, you know, Pioneer, when the pioneers came to Utah and probably the late, I don't know, 1850s is probably when it was built originally.

And then it was added to. And it was a fixer-upper. And we spent years. And once they, once it was completely, and as a kid, that's what I did. I helped our family remodel this home and build it. And it was beautiful. And it was really the time. in my life with my parents, my siblings,

my extended family, because I come from a big family, my dad's the oldest of eight. So we spent a lot of time with family. And those were the happiest times, you know, growing up. And I don't think I realized that that's what I was looking for until later. You know, I just felt that there was this thing that I want to get back to.

And it was, you know, Christmas was the best time of year. It was, there were just all these moments that were just so wonderful in that, in that house. And my parents lost it through a business and a decision. And I was the only one at home. My older sisters had all graduated. So I was the only one left at home at this time. And so they, and I just remember literally just being torn from the home that, you know, it wasn't just my childhood. It was a home that I helped to build and to make really special.

And after that, my parents never had a home that they owned. They rented apartments, houses, condos. And really, the house they lived in Arizona. My dad died was a house that I owned that they lived in. So, and, you know, what it really boils down to that feeling is love you know and it and it's really um you know for me it's it's having the the greatest desire that i have in my life is to have the love of god you know to feel his love and and that's that's really what it boils down to and it's it's it's really feeling that

inner joy and peace of knowing that you're right with god that you're um that you feel that love from him and yeah i have absolutely found that in my life and and really found that i wasn't really far from it to begin with but but realizing that that was that to me was the essence of and it wasn't the house wasn't going well if i had the house that was like that one i had had even visions of buying the house back at one point and um actually when i when i moved back to springville i asked the people that owned it if i could tour it and and it and it was they'd actually made it better than when we had it it was but it was still pretty much the same same house but it for me it was and is it's a it's a inner um it's an inner piece it's not a place and it's and it's really that

peace with myself and because i talk about this joy and how i you know i played professional football for 12 years but i didn't win a super bowl not in the hall of fame my career was was pretty good it wasn't like top shelf not going to be remembered as one of the all-time great quarterbacks in the NFL and for so long I felt like I failed I've been married before and divorced and that was really hard on me I've had business opportunities that have been unsuccessful and so there and what I really realized was some of the greatest failures I've had have helped me identify who I really am and what I've what I've developed as a person and so that joy or that coming home for me was realizing that I have a lot of resilience

I have a lot of determination I have a lot of patience and and forgiveness and tolerance and these things, these characteristics that I didn't recognize that I had developed until I went through these hard times. And I really found that in myself, like who I was, and I liked that person. And so that, that to me is coming home. When you started the biggest loser, you met with, you talk about working a little or meeting with the psychologist that was part of the show, I guess. And one of the things I was trying to find the passage, I have it marked somewhere,

but I'm not finding it. I'll find it because I read it last night. And one of the themes of your book is how competitive you are and how winning is everything, right? And how you've always got you've got to be the best. You talk about this numerous times in your book about, you got to win the Heismet, got to win a Super Bowl, you've got to be in the Hall of Fame, right?

It's this really, these really high standards and aspirations. And you go to the biggest loser and the psychologist, which I really appreciate, by the way, he basically asked you the question, why is winning so important to you? Right?

And you're kind of taken a little bit of back by that. Do you want to talk about that element of your life for a minute? So it's exhausting, actually, this dislike. So when I get in the car and I have to go to my studio from my house, the minute I get in the car, I'm figuring out what is the absolute most optimum best way, fastest way that I get to my destination. And so my brain just goes in overdrive. So even this week?

Oh, it's all the time. So if I drive, I'm playing Tetris. Okay. If my wife drives, we're having a conversation. And it's a very, so literally, and it's hard and it's exhausting to have to, to keep to to to it just doesn't go away it doesn't turn off i i don't even know how to turn it off i've learned i've learned how to turn it you know to kind of okay it's okay to just you know have a conversation while you're actually driving but it's it's it's certainly been

it's been a blessing like it's it's taken me to to a lot of good places but it's also been it's been a curse sometimes it's just like I said there's like I just want to get in the car and drive and I can't and I just can't

and I and it's and it's not like I it's not like I a reckless driver it's not even like I'm a fast driver I'm just like I'm an efficient driver and sometimes being efficient I drive fast sometimes being efficient I move two or three lanes over and pass people all the way from the right. And sometimes I have a very loud verbal conversation about how stupid some of the drivers are and how they just absolutely,

you know, just move over, please. And really, I almost want to say at this point, it's probably the one thing that really drives me bananas. And I'm really okay with, pretty much everything else. Football was really hard for me to watch for a long time. And now I'm just, you know, I'm 56 years old and I, and if I wanted to play tomorrow,

I couldn't anyway, so I just don't worry about it anymore. It's just kind of, you know, from time to times, things will come up that, you know, drive me crazy,

but like, like Barry Sanders complaining about not, you know, just that it really bothered me. Yeah. I can't say with that I've made any peace with it completely and I don't know if

that's a good or bad thing at this point yeah in the book you actually say so he asked you this question and you have the realization that you you tied a lot of your self-worth to winning and you tied this you know the idea of obtaining love

Yeah, and it was really on the show, I realized, you know, the question I think was about, where do you find joy? Like, did you find joy in anything? And I was, and at the time, I was like, I, no, like, unless I win. And it was, it was, it was also the mindset of everyone. Yeah. Like, unless you win a Super Bowl, it's not a successful season. Like, we're here to win. If we don't win, we don't have a job. If we don't win, you're not, you know, it's, and so it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's kind of. of a warped world in some regards because one team every year wins so yeah it's it's a tough thing but it what what what i really what it really forced me to do is to look at my life and realize how much how wonderful my life actually was yeah and how there were really and are just tons of things that actually bring me joy that i can really find um a lot of happiness through which so I think maybe I want to end with this passage,

which brings me to my other favorite passage. And so we've kind of been talking about this, but I want to just read what you said back in 2014, 2015, when this was being written. And I think it's quite profound and just kind of get your thoughts about it now. So this is on page 204, quote, what I was missing was that it's not about the destination. It's about being.

It's about being a human being. It's about the experience. It's about finding those moments of joy every single day. Yeah. It was a very powerful change in the way I viewed things when I came to that realization. And it actually came to me like as I was lying in bed on the biggest loser one morning, just how all of these moments that I saw where the failures were actually, that's where the success came. That's where I really found who I was, was when I failed

and when I didn't win. And realizing that if you're just so caught up in the end, you don't capture what you've experienced on your way there. And that's what I recognize. Like, wow, I've realized I've become all these different things. I found all these things about myself that I didn't know I was even capable of. And they were things I like. And it was shocking to me when I realized that and how I could actually verbalize what really matter to me what what what what what what what I valued and it was just simple as things like I like I

like to solve puzzles I like to figure things out I like to build things um you know just I mean there were just things like that like that really brings yeah a lot of joy to me and and and and being married um just that I believe deeply in that and having a wonderful relationship and I do my children like it's just it's just the joy I find in just being a part of their lives not trying to make

their life into anything but just being there in their lives and living their lives with them and supporting them and and showing them how valuable and how much I love my children so I mean just

I wrote all of this out I don't think I wrote all of it I may have in the but in a journal I have, I wrote it all out and it's pages. I'm just, but if I wasn't forced really to lose. Yeah. And had I just won, I never would have slowed down enough to go. Wow, look at all these wonderful things that you've found along the way here that are priceless. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day.

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