Hidden True Crime - EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW: Juror Who Thought Lori Was Innocent, and the Text that Changed Everything

Episode Date: April 29, 2025

Lauren is joined by Carl, a juror in the latest trial of Lori Vallow Daybell to discuss why he thought she was innocent, and the texts that changed everything for him. About Hidden True Crime: What started as a simple conversation at their dinner table became a captivating podcast. Join the dynamic duo of Dr. John Matthias, a criminal psychologist, and Lauren Matthias, an investigative journalist, as they delve into the psychological facets of unthinkable crimes every week. Their unique perspectives and in-depth analysis offer a fresh take on true crime storytelling. Rula patients typically pay $15 per session when using insurance.Connect with quality therapists and mental health experts who specialize in you at https://www.rula.com/hidden #rulapod Thank you for your support through sponsorships, subscribing, listening, and becoming a Patreon member at Patreon.com/HiddenTrueCrime Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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and served as a juror. Thank you for doing that. And so we'll keep it at that. Your name is Carl. and I really, I have so many questions for you, mainly because shortly after the verdict, you all walked out the front door of the courthouse. A few of you were stopped by us, the media. Yeah. And we learned right away that you were perhaps one of the holdouts during the deliberation. I was, yeah. Can you, can you, can you share that a little bit? Like, what you're feeling and she was charged with conspiracy to commit murder. And what I didn't realize until probably

the second day was because we were going through everything that happened with detail on, you know, interviewing EMTs and interviewing detectives and stuff like that. I kept wondering who's on trial here. Is this Alex on trial here? Because that's all they talk. about was where somebody stood and where another person stood and where a bullet casing landed and where the bat was and the hole in the wall and the hole in the floor and then it hit me, I didn't know anything about this and supposedly neither did anybody else in the jury knew anything about this before she was charged with conspiracy. So then that's when I realized that I have to take some of the stuff into evidence into my mind, you know. But before that, I didn't know

where they were going with all of this. So I was like, that's not evidence to prove she conspired. That's not evidence that proves she conspired. That's a bullet casing laying on the floor. That's not evidence of her conspiring to kill somebody, you know. So that, and it led all the way up until the very end when they gave their closing arguments for me. Yeah, Trina Kay really, kind of brought all of the evidence back, I felt during that closing argument. Is that what you felt she did? Or how did those closing arguments help you? Yes. Yes. The thing was there was so much, I mean, for me, my mind was inundated with information. And it's hard to, you know, process all of that at any given time.

And when she did her closing arguments, it started making me think, ooh, I want to look at that when we go into deliberation. Ooh, I want to see that. I want to watch that video, you know, stuff like that. And that's kind of where it kind of all came together for me was at the very, very end. Yeah.

And when you say you didn't know conspiracy to commit murder, or are you saying that you didn't understand what her charges were or how the evidence, I just wanted to clarify, how the evidence equated conspiracy? That was my problem, was how does the evidence equate to her conspiracy? That was my whole thing going through, you know, the first few days of trial. Like I said, you know, an empty, they really wanted for some reason to point out that the room they walked into was empty.

And I was like, none of that has anything to do with her conspiring. Show me a witness that said, yes, I was at a party. I heard her say that she wanted to kill her husband. That never happened. You know, they didn't get to that until like the last two days of the trial or day and a half. The text messages. Well, that in Lori doing her rebuttal, at the end of everybody that was a witness against her, basically, her last question was, have you ever heard me or been around me and overheard me say that I wanted to kill my husband?

And all of them said no, every one of them. So, you know. And that's what you were waiting for. And so, yeah. Yeah, because up until the very end, I was like, this girl, this one is not guilty. She didn't do this, you know. But then, you know, the end result proved otherwise. Yeah.

So what is some of the evidence that you heard in the closing statement that was this moment of, oh, I really need to look at that? there was a text that she sent, I believe, to Alex that said he changed beneficiaries before we could get rid of him. Yeah, yeah, to Chad. That was huge for me, huge. And then what was the other one was? I can't remember what the other. The second one, there was a second one that really resonated with me. but that one was huge for me

that was a very important text in my mind too before we got rid of him about the beneficiary the insurance money between her and her and Chad Daybell who she was having an affair with right right yeah and you had never heard of Lori Valov David no because honestly I don't watch the news I watch I watch Fox News but I watch Channel 47 And, you know, the nationwide news.

I don't watch Channel 10 and Channel 3. I just don't. Yeah, you don't watch the local news that's happening in Arizona. Yeah. I still don't. Yeah. Right. And so first I want to head into the deliberation room then.

So you're on the fence. The closing arguments helped you. And then what? Take me to that day that they concluded. and you go back to the deliberation with your fellow jurors. What happened then? Well, I think the very first thing that after we decided who I think they called a foreman or something like that, who the head person was that was going to take the verdict to the judge,

they did not like a preliminary, what do you guys all think? How many think there's guilt here and how many don't? It was just a show of hands. So there were, I think there were two. of us that were on the fence, I think me and and then we just went from there just deciding, you know, what are we going to do first to figure this out? Watch, you know, we watched videos first,

and then we went through the texts and things like that after that. So, but the videos were also pretty pretty convincing. As far as it like when she went into, I think it was Walgreens with flip-lops on, saying she didn't left the house barefoot and didn't. So that was a big moment, seeing that lie or that bib. Yes. Yeah.

And what else in the videos was sort of got? For me, that was the main thing. Because they showed, we had videos of, you know, the autopsy and all that stuff. And, you know, none of that. It's like I said, an autopsy showing the direction of bullet went through a body with sticks. none of that says, you know, she conspired to commit murder. So I didn't take a lot of that in the consideration. I mean, I just didn't.

But it was mainly the footage of, I'll tell you the other thing, and to be honest with you. Yeah. There was one of the films in there was one of the videos showed her show back up to the house and the cop tells her to go over to her car, and she's like almost laughing about stuff. She's unconcerned. She said, oh, sorry, neighbors, you know. I was like, your husband is laying in there dead,

and you're going, sorry, neighbors. You know, it was very, what did they call it, nonchalant? Yes, nonchalant. And she was like that with a lot of stuff. And, you know, when we talked about that with the jury, I even mentioned, I said, know a lot of people go through divorces she stated she didn't like him a lot of people go through divorces and if a spouse gets in a car accident and killed they're like okay i'm i'm not

gonna lose a minute of sleep you know i hated her him you know sure yeah so i thought to myself maybe that's where she was at she didn't like this guy and so there was no emotion there for him this wasn't so that was you know i was i was kind of 50-50 with should i even consider the coldness of her um Turns out I should have. Yeah. Yes. In fact, I want to, well, I know you've learned a lot about her since, but before we get there,

there were two days kind. Well, there was one day of deliberating, really, because you guys went to the back. You decided where are we? And then you went home for the night. Is that right? Yes. You guys just decide. Without a decision you all made together, like let's.

Yeah. Okay. Go home. Yeah, think about it. And think about it. And then you came back, you went through all the videos, through all the texts, and at what point did you say, okay, I, yeah, I see this as conspiracy? I was convinced when I saw the text about we got rid of him,

before we got rid of him, that was just huge to me. that's when I went okay she's guilty that's it's all there is to it and what about the second shot on the ground or is that more so you're just thinking well that's Alex or did that affect you the second shot while he's lying on the ground well no the thing with that is that you don't I don't know when he pulled the trigger a second time was it was it you know right away I mean he shot him, he hits the ground, he shoots him again. Or did he shoot him, he hits the ground, and he waited and went on and make sure he's dead and shot him again, you know, two minutes later.

So, I mean, they didn't really cover that. I mean, Lori said she only heard the shot when she took off out of the house with Ty Lee. So I don't know how if it was, if there was any lapse of time when he shot him a second time, then yeah, that's not self-defense. That's, that's, you know, murder. Yeah. Yeah. So that was Ned before we got rid of him. That was the nail in the coffin. And how did you decide who was going to be jury foreman then at that moment?

Well, we did that at the very, very beginning. We picked somebody right at the very start. That was a very first thing we did was, I mean, we had four, I think three or, I think four volunteers for it. And we just had to whittle it down to one person and with a show hands. So. Okay. Okay. And did anybody in your life, during your time as a juror, know what you were doing, and that you were a juror for this infamous criminal. Yes. And they were all very respectful of my privacy. Okay. And they didn't tell you, yeah, what was going on. And if anybody would have, I would have, you know, put up my hand and said, wait, don't.

Yeah. Yeah. So the verdict's read. It's guilty. All of you walk out. And at what point do you say I need to learn more about Lori Ballo, Dave? Right away. As soon as he gave, I can't remember what he called it,

was some 50-cent word he used, of course. But as soon as he admonished us from not being able to talk to, we could talk to anybody at this point. I walked right into the jury and Googled it right there. Is the judge? Yes. Yeah. So I did it right away.

I'm still in the jury room looking at my phone watching or reading the story about this. So you're in the jury room because everybody walked out sort of understanding that there were other murders. And you were one of those. Is that right? It was right after the verdict. Was Redd you're saying you're looking at your phone? Well, yes, that's why they told us. Now, the judge said, don't be careful what you say because there's still another trial coming.

and we don't want to put this one in any kind of jeopardy. So be careful who you talk to and what you say. So I understood that, but at the same time, I wanted to read up on, you know, what happened. I didn't know anything about Idaho or Hawaii or I knew nothing about, well, a little bit about Hawaii because that was in our trial. But I wanted to know about it. Yeah. Yeah. Did you wonder why Tiley during the trial wasn't testified? fine? You know, I never, I never, I think it was the one that kept saying, how come

Tyler doesn't be asked to be a witness? I want to see Tyler up there and he kept saying that. I think about three different times, but no, I mean, we didn't, I never said it. But we didn't, we did not know that she would have been killed. Nobody knew that. which is horrendous. Yeah, it's tragic, isn't it, to learn that? I mean, what did you think when you realized? When I saw all that, oh, my God, she's just a mental monster. All I could say to, because I think it was Channel 3 or somebody asked me the same question,

and I just said, all I could say is, wow, unreal. Because like for me psychologically, I just sit there and I go, what? How does one let themselves get to that point? You know, I mean, I just, I don't understand it at all. I don't understand how you end up, you know, killing your daughter and your son and, you know, Chad's wife. And then I think to myself also, did she actually physically have a hand in it or did she have somebody else do it?

I mean, they never covered any of that stuff. said, you know, what happened to Tiley, I understand that. And what happened to JJ? I understand that. But I mean, did she physically have a hand in that? Or did she have maybe Alex to it? I don't know. Yeah. And so you're, it's the day of the verdict you learn. So is that what you quickly Googled on your phone? And you saw before you walked out of the courthouse. Yeah. There were the first. Okay. So you learned right then. And you walk. out, you're trying to process what you just learned after you left the courthouse. And then what do you do?

How do you process that? Did you call somebody? Did you start watching something? What did you do next? Well, I did, I've got two books about her and I haven't started reading it. But I did, I watched them. I watched, was that my, the sins of my mother? Okay, the Netflix documentary.

Yes, yes. My husband's in that one. I saw him. That's awesome. But so I watched that and, you know, it's just, it's hard to process. I mean, it's hard to sleep after that. Took me a couple. You had a hard time sleeping.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we're staying asleep. We're staying asleep. It's almost like an addiction, you know, when you go through something this bizarre and this, I don't know, phenomenal, I guess. taking into consideration everything that happened with raiding people with, you know, light numbers and dark numbers and just a whole entire process of where her mind was just sinking, straight to the depths of hell as far as I'm concerned. It's hard to process all that. Yeah, join the club.

I've been processing it for nearly six years. What does your husband say? A lot. Yeah. He says a lot. But, you know, what we've learned about Lori Valo Debel over the years is also a lot. I'll just shift over to Judge Boyce at her sentencing. And a psychologist said that she had a personality disorder or multiple personality disorders

and some delusional disorder. Those are according to diagnosis of someone that assessed her. behind bars in Idaho, you know, there's, it's a lot, but narcissism, there's a lot of narcissism. There's a lot of, you know, wanting to be special. My husband, Dr. John Matthias, also discusses a lot about her obsession with being immortal, you know, a fear of death and just needing to be immortal, needing to be special needing to be a goddess you know there's a there's a there's a lot happening and then there's this sort of you know deadly meeting between chad dable and lorry valo where those two were the most horrible two people to ever meet the destruction that happened once they met is beyond

comprehension and it's for sure tragic um yeah um you He'd be happy to talk to you as well sometime if you have more questions for him. But I mean, that's just a little bit of what I can say. I know that he's also, you know, talk to, we've talked to a lot of her family who have also been trying to process it too. Yeah, I didn't get to meet any of her family. I kind of wanted out of there. I mean, I was walking away and I hear this like real fast pitter pattern and I turned

around and looked and it was some little short guy running full blast at me. And he asked me. you could ask me a couple of questions. I said, okay. And the next thing I knew, there's like 15 people surrounding me with mics in my face, you know, so that wasn't my actual intention. I just wanted to get on the shuttle and leave. Okay. And so all of a sudden, you were sort of faced with all of us sort of surrounding you. Yeah. Yeah. At Hidden True Crime, we believe that taking care of your mental health is as important as taking care of your physical health, whether that means a self-care day, exercising or even therapy. And if it is professional therapy that you are interested in,

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support our show by letting them know that we sent you. Go to Rula, R-U-L-A-com slash hidden. and connect with a licensed therapist. Your mental health matters. There was one thing that you did say to local news that has been passed around, and I thought maybe I could ask you about it if it's okay. But you said that the day before the verdict, you were driving home, because this is the day of a verdict to your interview, so you said yesterday. So I assume it's the day before the verdict.

You were driving home realizing that she had, you know, three life sentences and you felt, sorry for her. Did they tell you about her previous sentences or how did you know about other possible sentences that she had? You know, I can't really recall how I found that out. That's okay. I remember. But I don't, it's hard to, it's hard to say. I mean, it's still a human being and it's just

tragic that somebody, I mean, she's, she didn't just cause the loss of life to four other people. She lost her own life in the process, too, basically. You know, and she's in prison for the rest of her life. So I just don't, you know, I don't understand how, okay, if it's 1,805, you could probably get away with this stuff. But it isn't. The forensic science that we have today, you just can't get away with murder. It's just stupid to even try.

So I wonder that. Especially, like if she would not have sent those two texts that I saw, she would have probably got a not guilty from me. So that was her nail in the coffin as far as I'm concerned. That's what did it. But knowing that they can research all this stuff. And she still sent those texts. She's just not very smart of her. I'm glad she did.

You know, because she would have gotten away with it. And not that even matters. I mean, the judge said she'll get 25 to life, but if she's already serving three life sentences, I, there again, I don't even understand the point of this whole trial. She's already serving three life sentences. She's never going to see the light of day. Why did the state spend the money on this? And, you know, the taxpayer's money on trying somebody that's already has three life sentences.

It just seems kind of silly to me. Yeah, yeah. Although, well, let me ask you this. So, but to clarify. you don't know how you knew that there might have been another sentencing. Everything's a blur. I do understand that. Sometimes I forget what day it is when I'm attending trial, reporting out of trial.

But you did not know about any of the other murders until after the verdict. Yeah, I had no idea of anything else that she had been through prior to this trial. And even during the trial, I didn't know that. And so you go home, you finally get home after all of the media swarms you. You did ask to, so you asked to talk to a friend. And I also know that you watch the backstory that I wrote and edited on Lori Ballot, Daiball, the whole story. Is that right? It was an hour and 50 minutes. Hour and 53 minutes, yes.

Okay, yeah, you watch Netflix and then that. And I know then that you've seen a lot of, of the Charles Valo body cam footage too, where Charles is saying she wants to destroy me. She wants to kill me. They didn't present that in trial, your trial. Did that affect you? Would that have been helpful evidence? During the trial, absolutely. I don't understand why they didn't show us that.

But that was up to the prosecutor to bring that to light. And she didn't. She must not have thought it was something that was that we needed to see. But yeah. Yeah, I have heard that maybe they thought it was hearsay because Charles is deceased. Look, I'm not an attorney, so I'm not going to get into why they can or can't show a piece of evidence.

But what did you think when you watched that after the trial? I wondered why they didn't present that because it is it hearsay? That's him being hearsay, but it's showing us that he had a concern. Yeah. So, I mean, that's the best way I could put it. And that would have helped a little bit also. Yeah, I agree. What has been clearly learning about the children being murdered has got to be hard and Tammy Daybell and, right, as you point out, all these other murders.

But what else has been some shocking information to learn about with this case for you since watching what you've watched after the trial? I think the way they disposed of JJ and Tiley, that's just, I don't even have words for them. No. Right. And like I said, I don't know how they even, I don't know. I can't process that. I can't understand it. I know.

And you can't. Have you been able to talk to friends and try to understand and process it? process some of this. You have people to talk to? No, not really. Not really. Yeah. What about the religious beliefs, the zombies and things you learned? Was that difficult for you to understand? No, but that just, I don't believe the LDS or Mormons, they don't think like that, you know.

That's just her own. mental acuity at that time. She's just a mental case. You know, I mean, one of the most disheartening things I heard was her talking on the phone to somebody and then saying, Ty Lee is a zombie. And you hear Ty Lee in the background saying, Mom, I'm not a zombie.

It's heartbreaking. That was my interview with Sherry Doddle that you, yeah, it is heartbreaking. Yeah, that you see in the back story. It is absolutely heartbreaking. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, to hear that. Yeah.

Brise a tear to the eye. Yeah. What did you think about Lori representing herself? You know, in the beginning, I thought, man, the prosecution is just going to rip her apart because she's

not a lawyer. She doesn't know what the heck she's doing. She never called any witnesses, although it's not her responsibility to prove her innocence, per se. She never called for any witnesses. I don't know that she even, had any that liked her enough to defend her. How do you defend that? Yeah. Right. And so when

she didn't call anyone, that was sort of your thought was, oh, no one will even testify for you. Yeah. I don't even know. I mean, out of all the people, I mean, who is she going to call for a witness? Adam? No. It's not going to call him up there for a witness and put him on in, you know, put him on the witness stand to be on, you know, to represent her on her behalf. It's not going to have. and the whole family was just torn apart over this whole thing. Yeah. What did you think about Adams? I thought it was, it was, it was sad.

I mean, like he said, it just tore his family apart when he went to see his mom and she was what basically just wouldn't hear it from him. That, you know, Alex killed Charles. She just wouldn't believe him or something. I don't know, but it just tore their family apart. together and it's just just hopefully they can reconcile this whole thing and become a complete family again someday what witness uh were there any witnesses that were profound for you that affected you more than others no not really because a lot of them like when they're interviewing you know when they interview like the the emt they do it in complete detail i mean it takes a couple hours to go

through an emt and what he noticed and this and that nothing profound there they The only thing that I thought, and I didn't, well, because what I didn't know was it, they hadn't called a 911 for 43 minutes or something like that. I didn't know that at the time. So I wondered why the EMT did like one minute of compressions and then just went, I was like, man, I asked one of the questions of do you, did you have a physician patched in? What did you use the right to say, okay, he's dead, you know? Normally you have a physician patched in. EMT doesn't make that call, but apparently I'm wrong. I worked in, see, I worked in the medical field for very, very many years.

I'm a respiratory therapist. So I worked in blue alerts and, you know, the ugliest traumas you can imagine. And I've been standing there when they had something called a bat phone when they were patched into EMTs and firemen explaining things to them that, you know, this person has been shot and this is what they're doing. And only one time in my entire career when the fireman walked through the door and said, oh, yeah, we called it in a route. And then the doctor just blew up. So I wondered that. But a lot of that, you know, even the detectives and stuff, they were just going over such detail things.

Nothing really stood out to me with any of them except maybe Adam. Yeah. Yeah. So you asked that one jerk question. Were there any other juror questions that came from you? Yes, because I wanted to know why, you know, normally when you have somebody down, you start a peripheral line and you're running epinephrine and things to get the heart going or keep the heart going if there was anything, but they didn't do any of that.

They did compressions for like one minute and then just basically stood up and walked away. So I asked why, how come you didn't do any of that? There was no medication given. There was no ventilation given. There was just nothing but compressions. So that was my other question. And I probably had another one, but I can't really recall. Considering that somebody's lying on the ground dead, that's where my eyes go to.

There were a lot of juror questions the day of the police interview when she, actually had her cross-exam and she talked about her rights, you know, and things that the police didn't do. And they, they didn't ask Tiley or didn't get her permission to interview Tiley or some other situations. There were a lot of questions that day. Did you ask any questions that day at all? Or were those questions that perhaps came from other people? They just, those questions just came from her. I didn't, I didn't challenge any of them. But But because I'm like you said, I'm not a lawyer. I'm not a police officer.

I don't know the law when you have like an alms buzzman or somebody in their position where they separated them and, you know, put them in different rooms and ask them question. I don't know if they're allowed to do that or not. I think if they would have said, hey, you're under arrest, that would have been a different story. Then they could have said, I'm going to see a lawyer, you know. Right.

Right, but they, yeah, that didn't happen. They didn't do that. They actually ended up letting them go. What do you think about that now? I think they didn't, at the time, I don't think they knew the whole story. You know, they didn't see all the text and all the madness that was going on. All they saw was something they thought was a self-defense situation. But once it caught onto it and started uncovering things is when they really,

realize, hey, something's not right here. Take us back to reading the verdict, because one thing that I could not see even inside the courtroom, nor could the public see, was her reaction when you read the verdict. Could you see what Lori's face did when you read that? Yeah, she had no, she was expressionless. There was just blank. It was just nothing there. And that surprised me because I thought she would like put her head.

down or shake her head or something and she just sat there. It was nonchalant. Yeah, nonchalant. You bet. Lord of her MO. Even during the trial, I know a lot of people were, I think I only looked over at her maybe a couple of times to see every time I ever looked at her. Because I think Western and Tasha, was that it or something like that? Yep.

Tasha. She said that every time she looked at her, she was rolling her eyes or, I never saw any of that. All as I saw every time I looked at her was her taking notes. And there was a couple of times where she was like this looking at us, but I didn't see her rolling her eyes or shaking her head or making any kind of weird gestures like she said. But then again, I didn't look at her a whole lot. Right.

Yeah. So you both saw different things. Yeah. But you did see Lori kind of just looking at all of you. at some point. Exactly like that. Yeah, she would just put her like this and just look at us, you know. Admiring the jurors almost. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. What did you know who picks the jury? Go ahead. What? Do you know who picks the jury? Is it the judge or her? It's everyone, even Lori, even Lori, the judge, the prosecution and Lori Valo Davao. So the defense, the prosecution and the judge all work together. They go. go over all of the questions and concerns and narrow it down. So it's a joint effort. Yeah. Wow. Because I don't know. I just, I wondered. Excema is unpredictable. But you can flare less

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I don't want to do this. Yeah, you did not want to do this. know. And I almost told to judge that, those exact words, because I really wanted out. But then I was like, you know, the old saying, it is my civic duty. So I just kind of sucked it up and did it. That's interesting. Yeah, this is nothing you want to, because a lot of people do have questions about that. People that follow this case think, you know, what I want to be on a jury, jury one day, would I not? And so you're saying, you, you did not want this beginning to end. It was your civic duty. You did this. You didn't know about her. And, but now you can't sleep,

though, after doing your civic duty. Sorry. It's strange because, I mean, I wake up thinking about it. I go to sleep with it on my mind, you know, even still. So it's, it was pretty profound. That is. Is it the, the act, how many people lost their lives? Is it lorry behind bars? What is it that goes through your mind the most? I think all of it. I mean, I go through, especially after watching your video and the sins of my mother and stuff like that,

it just enhances things because I just, you know, I just kind of wonder, where did all this start and where was her mind at that time? and then I start running through the scenarios that I started like imagining her doing things and visualizing it and it's like it's crazy on it's just had you know a bad effect on me I guess yeah yeah yeah well join the club it's it's rough and I say that I I giggle but it's true um again I've been covering this case for nearly six years because it sometimes has kept me up at night, not recently, but it's a difficult one. And we've become close to many of the surviving victims, which I also want to ask you about.

As the verdict was being read, did you know that on the front row was Charles's family sitting, Kay and his other two siblings? Did you know that's who they were? No, honestly, I've very rarely looked over there, even, when we got up to exit to go to the jury room, I didn't even, I tried not to even look at them because there was one guy that I remember, a rather large guy with lots of tattoos on his arms, and he just looked flushed like he was angry, like red, his whole entire, I think he was bald, if I'm not mistaken, but he just looked very angry. And I didn't, so I wondered, I wonder if that's

one of the family members. But, and it was odd because after that, I don't recall seeing him, but I barely even looked over at them. Yeah. Detective Ray Hermesio, who was a detective from the Idaho case, and he is who uncovered the children's bodies. Oh, God. So he discovered and found the bodies, and he had to testify at the Idaho trial,

explaining how he unwrapped JJ and uncovered Tiley's remains and explain them. So he was there. Sue, that also sounds like it could have been him too. It's possible. Yeah. So you avoided them that? I mean, that is a way to do civic duty and separate emotions from anything. But was there another reason you just chose not to look over sometimes at that row or?

I think that was the main thing. Because I didn't know who anybody was and I didn't want to see. them looking at me and smiling or frowning or something to sway any opinions I might have had or decisions I would be making. So I just chose not to look at them. Admittedly, you were a hard jury to read for me. Being married to a psychologist, I feel like I maybe have a better hand on looking for nonverbals and really trying to press us and see faces.

you guys did do a fairly good job with your poker faces. I guess we could call it that. There were a few times. There were a few times I saw a couple of you, but it was tough to read the jury. So you guys really focused on that. That's something Tosh told me too, that you guys really did make it an effort to try not to show emotion.

Is that? Right. Yeah. You just can't gasp. I wasn't about to roll my eyes when I thought, you know, okay, you're talking about your enchiladas and stuff like that. I, you know, I just tried to focus on everything else. But I know a couple of people laughed when she said that. I did not. Okay. So that was a moment, though, like, even though you didn't laugh and didn't show expression, you thought, was that a

strange moment to you when she was asking her brother about the enchiladas? It was, but, um, He was being a little forgetful. I guess she was just trying to remind him. She's like, you don't remember when the last time we talked? Was it a year ago, a month ago, two years ago? You don't remember my green chili enchiladas? And I was just like, okay, that I'm famous for. So I don't know.

I guess that's an earmark for people that knew her to remember when they last saw her was her enchiladas she must have had in her purse everywhere she went. Yeah, right. And what about Nancy Jo Hancock, the woman who Charles had gone on a date with the night prior to his murder? Was that an interesting testimony to you at all? Things that allegedly discussed? In a way it was because she thought he ghosted her, you know.

So, and I thought the cross-examination, from Lori was kind of rude, you know, asking her, do you make a habit of dating married men and stuff like that? You know, I'm just like, that's not necessary, you know, but obviously she's a rude person. Right. So you saw that. Did you feel like she was rude or abrasive during the trial or did she come off as sweet and subdued? What was your take of her just as human being? During that, it was just a married woman coming out with her claws, and you could clearly see that. I mean, she got very, very defensive of this woman going out on a date with her husband when he was married. And I don't even know that she knew he was married on that first date.

But, yeah, she seemed more like I'm really peeved at you. I'm mad at you for going out with my husband, you know, and was. willing to say things or ask questions she shouldn't have asked. I think she got it was there was an objection over that anyway. Yeah. Right. Now, I mean, her husband is dead, was was shot by her brother, you know, was killed. And right, to show how upset she was. And at this point, you understood that she was having an affair too, or did we understand that yet as far as Chad Daybell goes? I mean, at this point, she's having an affair. Yeah. Yeah. I'm trying to I'm trying to recall that if I knew that during the trial.

Gosh, I can't really recall if I understood that to that length. Yeah, yeah, right, that they were texting. I mean, as far as Trina Kay, Trina Kay tried to paint the picture of a motive, which is wanting to be with Chad DeBow, money, and these strange beliefs. Those are a few of the motives that Freina K tried to lay out. But did that help me to kind of have motives to think about that might be the reason? Yeah.

I mean, you know, money is clearly probably the biggest motive that anybody has when they commit something to this degree. But from what I understand, she already had a fairly sizable account. she didn't really need the million-dollar life insurance policy, but it's still a million dollars, you know. And then the $4,000 Social Security that she was going to get, it seems like that was what was really driving her was being able to sustain her lifestyle. Yeah. Have you been able to speak to any of your fellow jurors since concluding your civic duty and getting on with life? No, they passed around a sheet of paper that somebody said, hey, let's write down our phone numbers and our emails in case we want to get in touch.

I didn't sign it. I mean, now, in saying that, if I go, if I, if I can, when the, the Brandon Trail comes, I'm going to try and go to that. If I see anybody there, I mean, I'll be cordial with them. I mean, it's not like I don't like them. I just don't see, I don't want to get together with them. I knew about investing, but I really didn't know how to go about it. Meet Corey, a Walthfront client.

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Investment management and advisory services provided by Wealthfront Advisors LLC and SEC registered investment advisor. Investing involves risk to principle regardless of the strategy used. Task performance does not guarantee future results. It was a trauma. It was a trauma and it's not like you want to, I mean, not a trauma. It was a civic duty, something that's not necessarily a happy memory for you. Maybe that's a better way to explain it. I don't want to put trauma in. Yeah. Yeah, it's no point in me carrying on with anybody. Yeah. Yeah. No, that makes sense. But you are going to choose to attend Brandon's trial and tell me why. Why do you feel it's something you want to?

I think I'd like to see how it ties in with everything. You know, as far as he goes, I know he was, I believe he was shot at out of a Jeep out of the Jeep that was registered to Charles, which is weird in itself. But I just want to see how it all ties in. to this case and the Idaho case and everything is, I mean, this is probably the last trial. And I want to see how they present. What is she being charged with on Brandon's trial? I think conspiracy attempted murder.

You know, he survived, which I think will also be interesting because he will be able to testify. Unlike the other victims, he is a surviving victim. And so we will hear from Brandon himself. And I think that's going to make this trial compelling. And yes, the Jeep was registered to Charles Ballow, who was dead at the time and was often being driven allegedly by Tiley, who we know was dead at the time. So, right. There is some interesting evidence in this. I'll share that.

And I don't know what they're going to be able to share or not share, but even from Idaho, because they would have, just, you know, driven down from Idaho to Arizona. For this reason, if,

you know, it's, it truly is Charles's Jeep that they prove it is. I mean, I believe it is. But, yeah, I'm sure.

Yeah, so I'll be there too. So we'll have to talk then. Yeah, it's clearly, I, I see that when jurors say they want to go to the next trial, and this is actually common, just so you know. Yeah.

It is because of the effect it has and the weight and the curiosity and trying to, I think, just understand. Yeah, put it all together. Just don't know what it is. I think if I'm not mistaken, he said they were going to let us know when the next trial would begin. So I'll just wait for that to come from the city. What does your family thought about what you've been doing the last? few weeks. Anything? I didn't really, during the whole thing, I didn't really talk to them about it.

But after it was over, I'm getting texts from family members, hey, my famous brother and stuff like that, because I was on TV, I guess. I don't know. Yeah, even though you don't want to be, but you were. I certainly didn't want to be. Yeah. Now, maybe you could clear one thing up for me. Yeah. Were there texts that were sent to?

to Charles after he died? Not from Lori, but from Adam. From Adam? From Adam and other people, I know Nancy Joe, you know, texted him after he was dead. I mean, when everybody knew he had passed, why would you text him? Oh, I don't, you know what? That's a good question.

I'm not sure if people continue or not. You know, so this is interesting, Carl, I have thousands of pages of evidence. I've read it all. But as far as the text messages I have seen, pages and pages of them, in the evidence or the discovery of the case, they have all of the text leading up to Charles's murder. We can now say that. I have always had to say alleged murder. Now Charles's murder.

We can say that now. And then I saw a text that Adam wrote after. He was murdered, and I have seen texts that Nancy Joe wrote after he was murdered. But I don't know if Lori or others texted him after. And if she did, that would be interesting to know because it would, I think, show manipulation of some. Yeah, that's what I was thinking was. Yeah. Maybe Lori texted him some text to make it look like she was unaware.

I don't know. She couldn't have been aware of it, but. Yeah, I don't know about that. So that would be interesting to know if that happened. She certainly wanted her own extraction of Charles's phone to use an argument. So she might have that for Brandon's trial, you know, because I know she's working very hard on getting her own cell bright extraction of Charles Vallo's cell phone. And she's continuing to work on it.

And the judge said if she gets it done, she can, you know, perhaps use that evidence, whatever it is she's trying to get at Brandon's trial, but whether that makes a difference, I don't know. What other questions do you have? Anything else that you want to ask me, too, you know, because you're trying to figure stuff out? Nothing I can think of. I mean, yeah, it's almost not possible to figure out.

I mean, it's just so bizarre and out there, you know. It's hard to, I mean, for me, it's just hard to understand. understand it the whole thing. It's like, why? I mean, a lot of people get divorces and they just go their own way. They don't kill each other. So I don't understand why she thought she had to. And I guess I do because, you know, she felt above the priests and above repentness and she thought she was speaking to angels and stuff like that or angels were speaking to her. So, I mean, I guess in a way I could see her going off the deep end like that, but it's still, I don't know how she didn't recognize it, that, hey, I'm going too far with this.

I'm going to send you a link to our very first season ever. It goes back to the very first podcast my husband I ever did. And it is me asking why. And then we talk for 17 episodes about why. But it's called Beyond the Vale. It's audio only, but I will send you a link because ultimately that's why we started our podcast and it's why we call ourselves hidden because what how do we make sense of the things that just don't make sense to the rest of us.

That's a good way to put it. How do you make sense of things that don't make sense? Right. And it doesn't and it still doesn't. But it certainly helped me to process it with my husband. I was watching it because Lori looked like all of my friend's mom's growing up. She looked really sweet. And when I first saw the case, I remember the AP wire came down and said there's two missing children and a missing couple.

And they looked normal. And the kids were so cute. And like you, you know, I've lost sleep over this thing. I said, I'm doing okay now. you're in the midst of learning everything. So, you know, but yeah, I'll send you a link to that. Okay. Sounds good.

Because that's, it's really why I'm here today is because I was trying to find out why so early on. Yeah. I don't know. All I know, she's guilty. So you feel good about your verdict? I do. I do. I feel 100% good about it.

I have no doubt in my mind that she didn't intend to do this. She intended to do this. She did intend to do this. Yeah. Thank goodness for deliberation. I mean, can you imagine how you might feel if you had said she was innocent right now after learning what you've learned? Well, honestly, like I said, if it wasn't for those two texts,

I would have been fine with not guilty verdict. at that time. But then when the prosecutor started talking about these texts that registered with me, and I thought, well, I got to see that, you know, and that's what changed me. But before that, I would have been fine with her being not guilty. I think it would have probably been a hung jury because nobody else thought that. Right. I mean, a couple of people thought she was guilty based on her flip-flops. I'm like, that's ridiculous, you know. It's true. Yeah.

To me. You need more evidence than that. Yeah. You need more evidence than that. So I don't know. Yeah. And one last thing. You guys did read more texts back there.

I heard that there were additional texts you read that weren't presented in trial, like some love texts between Chad Dable and Lori Vowl. Do you recall going over those in the deliberation room? Not in the deliberation room. I don't recall. I mean, maybe she read. some stuff, but I have this uncanny ability to block things out that I don't think need to be there that aren't actual. Like, you have to give me concrete evidence that she conspired. I don't, like I said earlier, I don't care where a bullet was lying or a bullet casing or, you know,

they passed the evidence, the baseball bat around. Okay, the baseball bat doesn't prove she conspired to kill him. You know, I don't want to tell you guys, but that's not conspiracy to me. That's just a baseball bat. Right. So, so, so yeah, like you're able to say, like, this isn't relevant to me and the evidence. So, so I'm going to not pay attention to this. I'm looking for specific things to help me process what conspiracy is. Yes, specific things. I needed something concrete, something specific that showed that she was 100% guilty of conspiring to commit murder. that's what I was looking for the whole trial. Yeah.

Well, I have to say, yeah, I have to say, Carl, I'm grateful for jurors like you that are skeptical and are looking for that really concrete evidence because I think it makes for a better jury and a more solid and a more concrete verdict too. I think it's good that you were a holdout or a doubter. So that came to this. Yes. It came to this guilty verdict at your own pace, you know, and you came to it, which I'm also grateful for.

So anything else you want to ask about or talk about right now? We can certainly talk again, too. Yeah, no, I mean, right now, if I think of anything else or something crosses my mind, I'll definitely send you an email about it, but we can chat again. Yeah. And why were you willing to talk to me today? Can I ask that? I think because I haven't talked to anybody else about it. It's kind of nice to get all this off my chest, you know? Yeah, I know. Because like I said, there was just a lot of detail, a lot of information to absorb. And I had no, all my friends kind of disappeared.

So I went away the dinosaur. So I really don't have a whole lot of people to talk to this about. Makes sense. So thank you. Makes sense. Yeah. I hope it can help. And like I said, if you need to talk about it again or process it again, you know,

you know how to get in touch with me. And I'll send you some additional stuff to watch or listen to that I hope can help. That would be great. Yeah. And I'll see you at Brandon Bidreux. I'll try a. I'll be there. May justice be served.

Yeah. Yes. So I have a couple of Carl's on the jury. So hopefully. I hope so. I hope so. But hopefully, I hope so. But hopefully they come to the same conclusion you came to.

Yes. I'm sure they, I'm sure they will. But then again, I don't know what the point is. But she's already never coming out of prison. So. Right.

Right. So, yeah. I know. You know, I think that to make sure that she's convicted in Arizona is, you know, it's justice for the victims. And also just, you know, dotting your eyes and crossing your teas is an important thing to do in a murderous spree across states. And that's the whole thing. It's justice for the victims. I think I never really thought of it until you just said that.

But yeah, they deserve that. That's for sure. They do. Yeah, they do. This podcast is brought to you by Carvana. Selling your car should feel like one less thing on your list. Not one more. With Carvana, it is.

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