Hidden True Crime - EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW: Murder, Betrayal, and Poison | Detectives Take Us Inside the James Craig Trial

Episode Date: August 31, 2025

In this exclusive interview, Detectives Bobbi Jo Olson and Molly Harris tell all about what it was like working on the James Craig case. From the initial call, to the search warrants, to the trial, where they were still receiving tip calls, they give Hidden True Crime and exclusive look into the case. Lumi: Lumi Gummies are available nationwide! Go to https://LumiGummies.com and use code HIDDEN for 30% off. About Hidden True Crime: What started as a simple conversation at their dinner table became a captivating podcast. Join the dynamic duo of Dr. John Matthias, a criminal psychologist, and Lauren Matthias, an investigative journalist, as they delve into the psychological facets of unthinkable crimes every week. Their unique perspectives and in-depth analysis offer a fresh take on true crime storytelling. Thank you for your support through sponsorships, subscribing, listening, and becoming a Patreon member at Patreon.com/HiddenTrueCrime Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I have to tell you ladies, again, just how honored I am to sit with both of you. I see you both as lead detectives as investigators, obviously. I know that your law enforcement background is immense, and I want to talk a little bit about that. But I also see you both as symbols of sort of this relentless pursuit of justice for Angela Craig. Angela Craig was murdered, and we can say that now because he has been convicted. James Craig, her husband, has been convicted of murdering her using arsenic, cyanide, tetrahydroids. Bosaline and other poisons. We'll get into the details because nobody knows this case better than these two women here, these two detectives who have been actively, in my opinion, fighting for justice for Angela Craig for years. And I just want to begin by thanking you both. I watched you both on the stand. You both had to be witnesses, this long trial. And not only that, but not only an investigator, but Bobby Joel Olson, you are, I have. have to say a victim because there was a hit list and you were on it. James Craig from behind bars

was trying to hire someone to kill you because of your relentless pursuit of justice. And you had to testify on the stand about that and that it was another charge or conviction that he faced. And he has been convicted of attempting to hire someone to kill you as well. Quite the twist in this heartbreaking and sord story. That unfortunately is a true story, true crime. With that being said, I would like to actually start by asking why you both chose to do this interview if I might start there. Yeah, I guess I had reached out to another producer and was like, did you see that the jurors talked on a podcast that was sent to me by my mother-in-law? I watch Hallmark movies, and so I don't listen to any true crime, really anything.

I feel like I live it every day at work. And so Hallmark's kind of my jam, my, I just want the world to be perfect for two hours, and everyone has a happily ever after. And I was, and so I listened to the jury talk, the three jurors that talked, and I had expressed my disappointment in not being able to talk to the juries after the tribe, trial. And that's something I always look forward to, and especially in this trial being I was somewhat of a victim. And it's just always awesome to get their side of it, what happened. And really, I kind of just, I don't want to call it a spiel, but I have, I talk to the jurors, like we sign up for

this job. We sign up to see all the horrible things we see. And these jurors don't. And so I always just like to ask them how they're doing, how they're feeling, how it was being a juror emotionally, really. And then I just usually tell them from just talking to other jurors in past trials, I know kind of what other jurors have experienced. And so I always just like to express that to them, that they're going to have feelings, they're going to feel alone. They're going to, they're their lives are changed. These are murder trials. Like, some are very gory.

And this one was an extremely emotional trial. And so I just, like, you getting to talk to them and them trusting you to do this story, I was just really hoping that, you know, I'd be able to kind of reach out to them via your platform and really just thank them. I thought it was absolutely amazing that they were all, they all had that group chat and and they all still communicated. And it sounds like they're getting what they need and that they have an amazing support group.

And that means the world to us, right? Like we couldn't, the criminal justice system wouldn't work without jurors. But I mean, at the same token, it's sad to hear how they felt. And again, from past jury's statements, I know that that's a lot of times how jurors feel. And just I wanted to let them know

like that that's all normal. That's all. And I hope that I think the one juror said that like a part of my soul left me that day. And it's just so disheartening to hear again. Like we sign up for this, they don't. And their lives are forever changed again because this one human. And I really hope that that part of her soul does come back because, you know, the job that they did has, I mean, is amazing in the grand scheme of it, right? Like it's hopefully given the family a peace of mind. They can heal. They can move forward. But really just wanted to come on here and, you know, say thank you to them. Like, again, our criminal justice system wouldn't work without them. Absolutely. I love that intent. And thank you. And I know that they will be so grateful for you.

And that acknowledgement. Thank you, Detective Olson. Detective Harris. Yeah, I just think a lot of times with, I'm a big true crime podcast listener, so we are the opposite when it comes to that. But I think a lot of times within that realm, the cases that are bigger or more well known, especially like when you look back at like the BTK killer and Dahmer and, you know, a lot of those Ted Bundy, those are the ones that everybody wants to cover because they know people or naturally know those cases. And so, you know, some of these smaller cases where it affords an opportunity for us to be able to really talk about the dynamics of the people within the case as well as the victim. I mean, in a jury trial, it's really a highlight reel of everything that happened. You know what I mean? This particular case has 10,000 pages of discovery, two terabytes of information. And, you know, we go through these processes that allow us to talk about certain things.

within the trial, you know, based on motion hearings. And so it is nice to finally kind of unwind isn't the right word, but to be able to talk about the people and how crucial they were to this case. Of course, Detective Olson and I, you know, yes, we worked it, but without the cooperation and the help of the people that were really involved from the beginning, you know, kind of giving them the pat on the back that they deserve, if you will. It's nice to be able to talk about Angela Craig and who she really was as a person, not, you know, the 10 days of her death. Yeah. So well said.

I just have to point out, I actually find it fascinating that you are both in this work. One of you watches Hallmark movies after work and the other is like, oh, no, I will do true crime podcasts. That's actually really just interesting to me. It's very motivating when you listen to them when you run because you're always watching around yourself. Yeah. So well said. Well, yeah, you're both incredible. And actually, you know, while you were on the stand, we of course, because your expert witness is on the stand, we learn about your background in law enforcement. Would you mind just sharing a little bit about your backgrounds with us today before we continue to talk about this case? Yeah, sure. Detective Olson, sorry. Yes, sorry. Yeah, so I started my career in 2004 in the state of Minnesota, where I grew up. And then while I was in Minnesota, I worked as a patrol officer and then became a detective in 2009, I think.

And then my family and I moved to Colorado in 2012. And then that's when I started working for the Aurora Police Department. I worked patrol, worked in our burglary impact unit, and then our special victims unit here at Aurora. And then in 2020, went to our homicide unit. Okay, okay. And Molly Harris here, I started in Carbondale, Illinois. I worked as a patrol officer for five years from 20, end of 2013 into 2019. And I was a patrol officer and a school resource officer at a high school.

And then lateraled out here in 2019, started on patrol here, went to our domestic violence unit as an officer investigator, are essentially the same thing as a detective, just not officially the promoted rank, and then came to the homicide unit in 2021. And I find it fascinating from domestic violence to homicide, which honestly, this case is about both, if you, in my opinion. Yeah, absolutely. Probably the coolest thing about our homicide unit is we're kind of a catch-all. We have people from formerly in the gang unit, formerly in the robbery unit.

Bobby obviously comes from special victims unit. I came from domestic violence. So it's kind of a cool melting pot because everybody has kind of a different background, which ultimately always helps in these cases when there's that element. And so for me, you know, coming from the domestic violence unit, I was extremely passionate about this case and getting, you know, the evidence that we needed as well as being able to prove this beyond, you know, the point that we did just to show how.

really damning it can be within a, you know, intimate relationship and how challenging it can be even without a physical aspect. Absolutely. You know, James Craig, an Aurora, Colorado dentist, what looked like from the outside a successful practice, a successful family, six children, a marriage of 23 years, religious, they belong to the Church of Jesus Christ, Latterty Saints. It seemed as if this was a family that had it all. And yet, you know, this domestic violence, we learned about Angela Craig's journal entries. We learned about so much of the manipulation. And I do want to get into that a little bit later, especially knowing that you were part of the domestic violence.

That is one reason actually I was drawn to this case is clearly she was murdered, but there was also so much emotional manipulation for years. And in my opinion, I'm not the expert you are, but what I saw from the trial was this sort of emotional manipulation for years and just sort of, yeah, I think that's maybe just summed it up. I just the emotional abuse that you can't always see from the outside. Right. And I think when people think of domestic violence, they think of the physical aspect as whereas this case was, and could. couldn't be any farther away from that, right? This was 23 years of manipulation, you know, but it's, yeah. Well, and we've talked about, you know, just the level of, I guess, attempted control by James Craig, even not only just within his relationship, but within his work community, you know, sending messages of don't go to the police with this information.

and then additionally trying to control the narrative even from inside, you know, the confines of the Arapaho County Jail. He was trying to dictate so many elements of this entire investigation, regardless of what we were doing to disprove it. And, you know, someone like that doesn't typically become controlling overnight. That's a historical thing. And I think that was very evident through the content of messages between him and Angela. just his constant communications and making her get to the point where she's apologizing for trying to approach him for the things that he had done, you know, through levels of infidelity. Right, right.

She's all of a sudden apologizing to him and he becomes the victim. And you're like, wait, how did this happen? Those texts are so many of those texts were read in trial, even more than I had read in an initial backstory I did. I read a lot of those texts in this backstory before the trial began. because that's so much a part of this. Like he's helping her or looks like he's helping her while he's murdering her. It's such a stark contrast in this case.

It's so shocking to see that in real time. So, right, those texts are just shocking to see. A quick word from this episode's sponsor. For me, staying focused during long projects can be a challenge. I think I've shared that with many of you before. But that's where Loomie Gummies have made a, a real difference. Consistent, mellow and delicious, loomies are crafted to help you feel balanced, centered, and ready for whatever your day breaks. Whether you're looking for a burst of creative

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Again, that's Loomigmigmys.com code hidden. Take me back, can both of you, to being called on this case, how this all began? Can we talk about this case? Yeah, so there's 14 detectives in our... unit. We have two sergeants, a lieutenant. We kind of operate on an on call basis. There's four detectives on call with a sergeant and then basically patrol, we usually go out and then determine what their needs are and then contact one of the sergeants in our homicide unit and then we get called out. So I believe at about 8 o'clock, 8 p.m. on March 15th is when our dispatch

center got the call from one of the forensic nurses at university hospital. And then our patrol officers responded and quickly learned that a otherwise healthy, 43-year-old woman came into the ER, kind of just lethargic, dizzy, and within two hours crashed and was presumably brain dead. Hospital staff didn't know why. And then I think a couple hours later, a business partner had come forward and said that the female's wife was a dentist and that one of the office managers had opened a package and had found it to be potassium cyanide. And that business partner was also a dentist and confirmed that there's no need for potassium cyanide in a dentist office. This is Ryan Redfern.

Correct. Correct. And that's basically what we had. Yeah, this was in 2023. Yeah. Yeah. You got that call. Yep. So I mean, basically that's, that's information we got. I, Molly was not on call. So she wasn't there kind of that original night. I always say that she got a good night sleep while we were out. So yeah, so we went out at about 11 o'clock on March 15th. And me and another detective ultimately interviewed Dr. Ryan Redfern. and then his wife, Michelle Redburn. And, I mean, it was 2 o'clock in the morning and 4 o'clock in the morning now on March 16th when we're interviewing them. And then two other detectives went to the hospital, talked to hospital staff quickly. And then a group of other pair of detectives interviewed that office manager that had opened that box of potassium sign in. Okay. And was that Caitlin? Romero?

Yes. And you interviewed her. She had opened the box or at least opened the invoice. Yes. So I believe someone else opened it, but again, not knowing anything that was inside. And then Caitlin was like, wait, I think that was a package that Jim had told me was coming and said that it was private. Don't open it. There were some biohazard stickers on it.

And so she further opened it. It is common for dentist's office to get fentanyl or pain medication. And so they were expecting a package of that sort. And so she had with the biohazard stickers potentially assume that it was that fentanyl and opened it. And then that's when she saw the invoice that was James Craig personal and then saw the potassium cyanide. And again, had never seen an order for potassium cyanide. We delivered to the office. Yeah. Had you ever seen a case like this when you were called on that night? Yeah, that was an overnight thing, right? It all happened late at night. Yeah, and I think that's the thing that kind of shocks everybody. Really, the kind of those first four days were so pivotal and critical in this investigation. I think everybody expected it was like, it was months and months and months because of other items and data and other things that were going on. But really, those, that first 24 hours,

you know, really became critical in this case. And at the point that she had been called out, like we talked about, our unit is very unique. It's just because you weren't on the callout team doesn't mean you don't get involved. I can't tell you the amount of times we've walked in and like, we need bodies to go help do this. And you'll have no idea what has happened. You get like a blip of information and then, you know, basically information of what we're looking for. And that Thursday morning, I remember walking into our headquarters building where we're at, at and they're like, we need more people to go search. And I was like, okay. And sure enough, like her original co-lead was already had predetermined vacation. And she was like, yeah, you're

going to be my co-lead now. And that's, that's honestly how this all kind of happened. And really that started the process of doing all the searches for both the family residents and Summerbrook dental. Wow. I know. And that was quick. You had to do those searches quick. when Angela died, you know, I want to say passed away, but after she was, you know, she was murdered, that that search of his house was very fast because he wasn't even able to go back there with his children. So you guys, you understood and just jumped. You were able to secure a warrant very quickly. Yes. So that other detective and I went and met with Jim Craig that morning of March 16. I think we met with him in about 8.30 at the same time other detectives are starting to execute that search warrant at the house. I got to the house at about 845.

But yeah, his family was staying at a church member, a ward member's house for the night. And officers had gone out to his house and secured his residence. I think they got there at about 10 o'clock. again by the time we got the call out and the officers go to the hospital and such. So his, we, I believe he came back to the house after he left the hospital sometime overnight and basically was told he couldn't go back in, obviously as we were preparing to write those search warrants for his house, the dentist office, and then for his phone and Angela's phone, and then his work laptop.

Okay. Gosh. And what were you looking for? specifically in these initial searches, obviously evidence, but what's the subject? Yeah, I mean, that was, I mean, there was a lot of concerns. We had a lot of questions. You know, first, where was Jim Craig? We had another detective of ours in our unit that belongs to the church. And so he knew the bishop and kind of knew the inner workings of the LDS church, which was extremely important in those first couple days. We had reason to believe poison was delivered, how much poison and where was the poison now? What form was the poison in?

No one opened this container. We don't know if it's powder. We don't know if it's pills. We don't know. What we do know is there's six children, four of which are juveniles that live inside that house, are the children. children safe. I mean, what dentists do you not know that is always seeming to have it all, right?

They always seem to be successful businesses. So his financial means were definitely a concern. Again, he's of Mormon faith. We knew he did some mission trips. Excuse me, mission trips. And so were those mission trips to non-extraditable countries? again, does he still have this? I mean, all these things are concerns in the back of our mind.

Like we had to act quickly. Yeah. And the house, I mean, it was a large house given that there's obviously could be eight people living in it at any time. Normal standard things, flour, sugar, you know, but what might be flour and sugar could also be poison. We were taking samples from a lot of locations. We went through everything. Detective Olson was under the impression based on the information she had gained that there was a possibility. It was in protein shakes.

So we were collecting shaker bottles with remnants of it. We were just trying to really err on collecting whatever we could, knowing that we have this window to be in the house. And then usually once you're out, you're out unless there's some sort of follow-up information. So we didn't know the company it came from at that point. We didn't know the form that it was in. So it was really taking as much as we could within obviously the confines of that search warrant and hoping that something that we collected obviously would give us some sort of evidentiary value for the long term. One of the shocking things that came out of trial for me was this timeline that,

James Craig wrote himself right at the beginning of this investigation, where it's essentially a confession, a confession with a twist. How did that timeline come about? And was that shocking to both of you? Is that normal? This time, I mean, maybe explain this timeline and how that came about because that was some really damning evidence in trial. Yes.

So, I mean, this case was moving as fast as we could possibly move. Those first literal four days, I don't know, I think there's a picture of me sleeping on the floor in our desk in our office. I mean, we didn't go home. I mean, it was, we took 15 minute naps, and it wasn't just us. I mean, it was our entire unit, our entire team worked on this four days. At that time, our digital forensic unit was down. one person and this was March 15th. This was prime spring break time. And so a lot of people were off. And so was our digital forensic guy. And so now we have these computers. We have these

phones. And we have no one to forensically download them. And so, I mean, we had reached out to Secret Service. One of our previous forensic digital forensic guys had left and went there. And so we reached out and basically they were like, yeah, we can do it in two weeks. I'm like, well, that's when our guy's going to be back. And so, I mean, it's not unheard of for us to do manual searches, because sometimes different cases warrant that. But so it took us, I think, two days of calling and trying to find someone to forensically download this before we went through it. And then we ultimately, again, made the decision that we had to just go through these devices. is basically because of those concerns that we had.

And so, yeah, so then we downloaded his phone, or no, so we, I think, just went through his phone and looked at his notes. And then that's where that timeline was. And, yeah, I mean, obviously gave us additional information. And then that's when we wrote, you know, subsequent search warrants to go back to the house and to go back to the dental office. and hope we could get the evidence he spoke about in that timeline. But, I mean, we didn't know what we didn't know.

But we knew we had concerns and we didn't know what he was going to do with the rest of the poisons. So, I mean, a decision had to be made and we went with it. Right. The defense pushed hard on that, the fact that you did the sort of digital discovery right away. despite waiting for the person that was supposed to. I know that the defense drilled in on that during trial. But it makes sense, you know, he hasn't been arrested. He hasn't been charged.

You don't know what he's capable of. And so there was sort of this urgency. And it made sense in trial, too, that's sort of how, you know, it came back with prosecution. And the timeline, it essentially said he did it, right? that he, I mean, this is how I took it. He, he purchased the poisons. He was going to help her kill herself, essentially, or self-harm.

Yes. But that it was because she wanted it. But then it also states that she was too afraid of poison because it was painful. But then is that, am I wrong? I mean, this is how I remember. I'm going off of memory right now, but it was such a shocking day of court for me. But then it was this game of chicken and she wanted his help. Right.

And then he was willing. Am I right with that? Yeah. It was all within, you know, 16 hours. He says lots of affairs throughout the years and went to Vegas, had another affair. I asked for a divorce. She didn't want a divorce. And then she said she was going to kill herself and asked.

And I said I didn't want anything. to do with it, but then I decided she was going to do it. She was going to do it with her without me. And so I just decided to help her. So is you're, okay. Yeah, all within this 16 hours. I mean, and then, yeah, he said that he agreed and that she had asked him to search, you know, quick, painless poisons and you know he did anything but that

he never once typed quick poisons you know painless poisons no it was all undetectable poisons or how to cover a murder up yeah and that

she ultimately then asked him to put cyanide in a dozen or so clindomiasin capsules and then give them to her so she wouldn't know when she was going to get him and then ultimately said that she asked him to prepare a syringe with cyanide in in it and he ultimately gave it to her at the hospital turned around and when he turned back around the syringe was laying next to her IV port and she said her arm hurt and then said that must have did the

trick because she never woke up and then that's that was kind of the end of the timeline. So when you guys are reading this, I mean, what's going through your mind? I mean, at that time, we had found,

we had already found the internet searches. I think when we found those internet searches, I mean, that was, I mean, that was when we were able to write that arrest warrant. And so, I mean,

after that, anything, above and beyond that i don't know was i mean it was shocking but it was it you know unreal yeah and in its own way it's rare you know oftentimes somebody who's even been taken into custody for murder and no matter the degree of it often doesn't talk which is of course their right to choose to do um but it is very rare that we get more or less a timeline of events that we haven't had to like get from data or you know like points on, you know, tower dumps where they were moving and where they might have been

either in a vehicle or on foot, as well as like contacts of like messages or email, whatever that may be. Typically, you're kind of piecing all those things together to get an idea of where this person was and what they're doing. Instead, he's more or less laid it out. And, you know, helpful, critical, all the above, those ultimately became things that we were able to to debunk, number one, number two, but he was more or less agreeing to the timeline of, you know, events that happened, the affair in Las Vegas, which was consistent with the communications that we found during the searches. Yes, he did retrieve the poisons. You know, of course, he was alleging that it was for her to help her. But like Bobby said, it's nothing in those

searches were how to make, you know, suicide look like an accident or something along those lines that might clear that he, any sort of assistance, you know, he was owning that he was a part of it, but none of those searches corresponded with somebody that was trying to make this easy on their significant other. You know, there are instances of assisted suicide. And typically, you know, that is a pill or possibly an injection depending on who you're speaking with and what maybe a facility will allow you to do as far as that is concerned. But that's not what was happening. You know, we watched and went through every, you know, video. And that's, you know, some of the things that you don't always get to see. We literally put, I took my body camera and like put it on a

mount. And we literally opened up every tab separately for all the like searches. And we literally recorded every single YouTube, Google, whatever it may be, video of, you know, five deadliest poisons, undetectable autopsies, anything like that. We were playing it because our first concern was this is probably going to get out and people are going to see this and these videos may be taken down and that could be critical evidence and ultimately it was, but everything that we were finding was not consistent with somebody trying to assist somebody with a suicide. Right. And both of you did you guys, you guys both conducted many interviews. Did you interview the children who essentially said their mother also was not wanting to self-harm or they didn't see that sort of in her? Yeah. So obviously the children were juveniles. And so we have a special interviewers that handle that. And so the children were interviewed, not by.

us just because we don't have that certification. But yeah, and they said, no, mom is not depressed. Mom has never been suicidal. Mom has never had any suicide attempts. I mean, there was no mention of any of that. No. At my bank, I was literally getting pennies using wallfront. Chuching, there's this much that I'm getting an interest in. I didn't have to do anything. clients like Angela earn up to 4.2% APY on their cash with the Wealthfront cash account. Get started at Wealthfront.com. Client was paid $1,000 for their testimonial, creating a conflict of interest. Outcomes vary. 3.3% base APII as of January 30th, 20206, as representative variable and earned on funds swept to program banks. 0.65% new client boost for three months on up to $150,000.

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0.65% new client boosts for three months on up to $150,000. Direct deposit $1,000 a month and fund an investing account for a 0.25% increase. Cash account offered by Wealthfront brokerage LLC member FINRA SIPC, not a bank. These in eligibility requirements may apply to certain checking features of the cash account. And one of the things I do want to point out in the timeline was something that was evidence that, James Craig himself helped you find because you didn't take this in the initial search, which was the clindomysin bottle. Is that accurate that he's stating that he put, or what did he state in the timeline? And then you thought, oh, we need to go back and try to

find this bottle, but couldn't necessarily find it. That's at least what I remember from trial. Is that accurate? Yes. So she had went to the hospital on March 6th, 2023 not feeling well. It was seen and released. Then she went back on March 9th and was admitted and then released on March 14th. And then went home March 14th and then was back in the hospital March 15th. So we know from the search warrant that Jim Craig prescribed Angela Clindamycin, which is a common antibiotic and that he filled that prescription on March 14.

It was capsule form and it was sitting on the nightstand. Again, we had no idea that anyone would or that was the means of transportation. Yeah, means of transportation to the poison. So we photographed it and just in case it was important. And so we knew that he had filled that prescription on the 14th and we knew what it was for. and we knew that it was capsules. But yeah, in his timeline, he had said that he manipulated approximately a dozen and gave him, put him back in the bottle per Angela's wishes.

And so, yeah, we wrote a search warrant to go back looking for that clindomiasin bottle. And that specific one was gone. We did locate another one, but it was from 2019. It was an older prescription. We collected it, but again, it wasn't the one that was on the nightstand and it wasn't the one that we believe T-manipulated. Okay. My goodness. Several interviews conducted between the two of you.

Is that correct? Yes. Any really telling interviews? I mean, there were also the women he had affairs with, you know, the sugar babies, which, as the court referred to them, the sugar babies. and also we interviewed one of them, Carrie, Hegg Seth, who explained that she was actually found. She didn't come forward, but yeah, law enforcement approached her. Can you tell us a little bit about the interviews and about the witnesses both of you interviewed or found or discovered and how that came about? Yeah, yeah.

I mean, and so again, through these searches, we had reason to believe that Karen Kane was in town. And again, at that point, we didn't know really anything other than Ryan Redfern said that potassium cyanide had been delivered. And Angela was now brain dead, right? And then we find out about an alleged affair. So again, time was kind of of the essence to talk to Karen Kane. I mean, at that time, I didn't, was Karen Kane involved? You know, maybe she wanted Angela gone just as much as Jim wanted her gone. We didn't know. Yeah, you don't know anything. Right. I mean, we didn't. And so I had. reached out to Karen and was like, we need to meet, like, and now. And so I met up with her at a hotel here in Denver, because again, she lives out of town. And, I mean, it was evident within the first five minutes of talking to her that she was not involved, knew nothing of which what was transpiring, you know, was essentially a victim within this mess that Jim Craig had. I mean, caused.

And I mean, he had just lied to Karen. He had told her that he was in the midst of a divorce, as was she. That he had an apartment, that he would stay in kind of one week. And then Angela would stay there and he would stay at the house to take care of the kids. You know, all these just grandiose lies. And she believed them. Yeah. She did.

She did. Many people believed him for many years. But was that, I think that one of the other really sort of shocking things that happened in all this was learning how he manipulated his children to until his children turned him in for something. Yes. Really shocking. Yes. Did you see that evolved too with the adult children sort of maybe not believing this? and then coming to or? Yeah, I don't, I don't know that I really want to speak to kids.

I mean, I guess, you know, you develop a relationship. I guess I don't, maybe relationship isn't the right word, but I mean, it was sad to see how fast they had to grow up. from the first time we met with the kids to the trial. It was just sad. Like you want them to stay kids as long as they possibly can, right? I think that's every parent's goal. And just to see, and you just know that it all happened in two years, and it's just unfortunate.

It was something that they shouldn't have had to go through. I mean, essentially their mother, was brain dead on the 15th, but obviously not pronounced deceased until the 18th. And then, you know, we're in the midst of authoring the arrest affidavit for James Craig on the 18th. He isn't ultimately arrested until the 19th, but here they are trying to process that their mother is officially deceased. And then within just hours, their father's arrested. And then the affidavit gets released to the public. So, you know, I don't even know that you can even put a pulse on what they were thinking,

because I'm sure that they were overloaded with processing the information of what had happened in such a short amount of time. But, you know, I think when they gave their victim impact statements, it really is a testament to the family and the values that they have, you know, within that family to be there for each other. And even when, you know, Tolliver is presented with essentially picking up everything and, you know, helping the family move on, you know, he rose to the occasion, no doubt. And now is finding ways to process, you know, having time with his mom. And it's just unfortunate because all of them really had to focus on things that you wouldn't want to focus on at that point, you know, moving out of a house and collecting all of your items and keeping your juvenile siblings. you know, under watch and making sure that they're doing okay. So well said, Detective Harris. Yeah. Yeah, they had to grow up fast. And I want to talk about their, they did an incredible job on the stand, the two daughters.

Before that, the daughter that had to come forward with that shocking information, what was, can you take us back to that moment and what happened? Yeah, I mean, again, I've said it before. I think her coming forward and giving us that letter, I think is really a testament to Angela's parenting. I mean, she clearly was able to raise these children with values, with morals, with ethics, right? I mean, this poor girl. Annabelle, yeah, yes, who has been 18 for all of two weeks and is now having to turn in a letter against her dad that's now in jail and her mom is now passed away. Like, again, I just, I think, attest to Angela's parenting, right?

Like, she taught these kids to do right from wrong or no right from wrong. But yeah, I was in trial and I got a call from one of my sergeants and said, you got a letter from an attorney's office today that dropped basically this letter off at our front desk. And I was like, well, open it, of course. So he opened the letter and it was a letter from an attorney basically said that they had come in contact with this letter. They didn't say how they got the letter, but that it had been given to a family member and they felt that they needed to turn it over to law enforcement.

And ultimately throughout the investigation, we learned that, yeah, Annabel had asked, or excuse me, Jim had asked Annabelle to come to the jail and bond out an inmate that he said was ultimately their cousin, which Annabelle was like, we have a big family. I guess it could be one of our cousins. Yeah, yeah, and went to the jail and bonded this inmate out. And then when he came out, the inmate gave Annabelle. this letter, which, yeah, ultimately was, yeah, the biggest shock of all. The letter stating that she should go to the dark web to find a way to create a deep

fake of their mother saying that she wanted to self-harm. Yes. Was that the letter? Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, and with the dates that co-aligned with the dates that he did the internet searches, Yeah, how to do it, where to go, buy a laptop, use Bitcoin, find people that advertise on the tour, on Yin, make it look authentic, has to be this date. And it was the February 27th, and that was the first date of his searches on computer number nine. Yeah, I mean, all intimate details, yeah, that really he would only know.

Right. Thoughts when receiving this letter? I mean, I just, this case is shocking from beginning to end. And James Craig just continued, in my opinion, to make it more and more shocking and upsetting. And that was a moment. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think our cases, I mean, they're always long and in depth. And I would say, I would. say, though, within six to eight months, you pretty much have a good grasp on the investigation and wrapping everything up and closing it, so to speak, to getting it ready to go to trial. This was two and a half years of emails and letters and more interviews. And I mean, every month, I was like, oh, I just love this for me. Like it just would, I mean, while we treat every homicide crucial, like it was just like, this will never end. It just kept going on and on and on to the point where I think I was even typing up reports while we were in trial because people were still coming forward at that time.

It was, I mean, it just wouldn't stop. It would not end. You know, you brought up an interesting point that it's just the, the information and it would never end yet. The defense was very critical on Aurora investigators at what you didn't get and what you didn't take, laptops of Angela's, what you didn't search. Can you talk a little bit about that? That was, I think, the defense's biggest criticism on the investigation. Yeah.

I mean, to I guess defense's point, I mean, they were the only ones that said that that's Angela's iPad, that that's Angela's laptop. Jim Craig never told us that was Angela's laptop. None of the kids said, well, that's my mom's secret laptop that she did all these searches on. That's my, my mom always carried that laptop. No, that wasn't the case. I had a search warrant to get electronic devices, but I don't think that that's, can I take them? It could. Should we? No. I mean, we have to protect people's right. of illegal search and seizures. We had no one telling us that Angela was using the kids' iPads to search poisons.

The kids didn't tell us that Angela ever used those laptops. So for us to then take them, I don't even have probable cause to get a search warrant to then search them. I can't just search a computer for internet history because it was in the house. I have to have some connection or someone saying that they use that device for us to be able to even write a search warrant to get that. I would say Colorado is very conservative of what we can get. We're to the point where I think back in the day we'd get a search warrant for a cell phone and we'd get everything. We'd get pictures, videos, text messages. That's not the case anymore.

I mean, we really have to go through and say, I know that they were communicating. on Snapchat or I know they were communicating on text messages. And sometimes even when we have proof that they're communicating on text messages, we'll only get text messages between that person and our known person. So I mean, it's really hard for us to really get into these devices. We had the most important one, which was her cell phone. I mean, I think even the Supreme Court has described the cell phone. as the modern diary, I can attribute that phone to Angela. She has a phone number. It's Angela's

name. Her iTunes account is in her email. But when it comes to family computers and family tablets, usually they're shared. And that makes it really difficult for us to search and obtain search warrants for those devices. Well, and I know that was their favorite thing is what we did collect or what we didn't do. But at the end of the day, their own client's testimony was that he did all the research for her and that he was asked to find essentially a means to an end for her. So why would he use her computer to do so? He was the one that said that he did them and he chose to do them. It wasn't even on a family computer. It was at the practice itself. So it's inconsistent with really the story or the narrative that they were trying to project.

Of course, their job is to try and poke at us and say we didn't do something. Okay, we didn't search her laptop, but we know that he told us in his own timeline that he was doing all the kind of research, if you will, and, you know, figuring out which poisons to give her because she had asked him to do so. So it would be inconsistent with their own narrative that they were going with throughout the court processes anyways. Yeah, well said. Thank you.

I had to ask. You know, so Bobby Joe, again, I mentioned at the beginning of this episode. You two are a victim in this case. Take me back to win both of you. When you learned this next thing, Nate Harris and James Craig's attempt from behind bars to put a hit on you, essentially. It's so wild to say that because that's exactly what he did. Yeah, I was actually up in Breckenridge with one of our district attorneys,

not that that was not on this case. When Osama actually called me and said, And there's some reports at the jail. Can you reach out to this investigator? So I reached out to the Arapo County Sheriff's Office investigator, who said that basically got me in contact with Sergeant Hudson, who was basically said that they had spoken to Nathaniel Harris and retrieve some letters from his property.

Again, we had copious amounts of letters that Jim Craig had written to various people asking to discredit me, asking to find people to come forward to testify, to say that Angela was suicidal or to say that they were his mistresses, all the above. I mean, they went on for pages and pages and pages. So I guess to get a phone call at that point saying, you know, we have more letters. from Jim Craig was, again, just another day in the life of this two and a half year process. A lot of the letters in that batch were cryptic, if you will, but Sergeant Hudson was able to find like a decryption code. And so we had the letters for about a week. But again, everything with this case just took time. And so it took about a week to decode those letters. Wow.

And Sergeant Hudson did that. He was amazing because I looked at it and couldn't even understand it. And so basically at the end, it was, and that Jim had asked Nathaniel Harris to kill someone for $20,000. But the report, there was no name in that part of it. And so I had asked Sergeant Hudson to go back and talk to Nathaniel Harris. And that's when he went back. and Nathaniel Harris told them my name and another deputy or officer that we were never able to identify, didn't work for the sheriff's office, nor did they work for the Aurora Police Department.

And that's that. You talk like a detective uncovering a case, but you just uncovered yourself as the target. Yes. Yes. Yes. I mean, it sounds like you put your work hat on and you're just doing a day in the life of, being Detective Olson, but you had to have felt something personal when you learned. Oh, yeah.

That. Yeah. I mean, it was. Were you fearful of your? Well, the other caveat to that was I had just broken my ankle. And so there I was on a knee scooter in a purple bedazzled cast. I didn't request. And so I'll tell.

Ultimately, I think that was my biggest fear. Like I really was unable to defend myself as so I felt at that moment, right? I can't run away. And if I could run, it wasn't very fast. And so yeah, I mean, Molly and I are the only two females in homicide. We're usually always together. I mean, I get called Molly all the time. She gets called Bobby Joe to the point where we don't even correct it anymore.

We're just like, hey. And so it was, you know, like, are they going to think Molly's me or, I mean, it was, yeah, I mean, I think it was a heightened alert for everyone. Yeah, I mean, it went on for quite a while. I mean, there's, I mean, it's not the first time it's happened and unfortunately it probably won't be the last. But I mean, there, there was, we have an intel unit and the sheriff's office was kind of in charge of the investigation. But I mean, we, it took us some. time to vet the threat and really get the details of it. You know, was there a plan? Was Nathaniel Harris told additional information, which she ultimately said he was? I wasn't involved in any of that. The sheriff's office had originally closed out the case, citing that they forwarded me

the information. And so that took a couple of days for even me to know that. And then once it was, I was like, well, I can't investigate my own crime. Like, I'm the lead investigator on this case, but I can't, like, once I'm named, um, so then the sheriff's office picked back up the investigation. Um, I had asked Mike Morrow. I said, um, was the affidavit filed? And he said it was. And I was like, let me read it. And he's like, but can I? He's like, you're the victim. And I'm like, why can't I? Um, and so I mean, I wasn't really privyed to any of that. I, I, you know, as far as the,

the surveillance from the jail, you know, surveillance. of him or Nathaniel walking in circles, that, like I was the victim now, right? That wasn't part, I don't have really jurisdiction in Arapo County. And so the only videos and essentially that I saw were through the preliminary hearing that obviously I was at and or the motion hearing. So, you know, Lisa Moses tried to question me on that and why didn't I follow up on that? and it wasn't my investigation. I really had no information.

I was really treated essentially as a victim and wasn't really given the intimate details until later. But yeah, I mean, there was a truck with money in it and a gun and that who they were supposed to contact and where they were supposed to go and how they were supposed to get information to find me. Jeez. Well, I'm glad this was discovered. and you're safe in here. Detective Harris, I mean, what were your thoughts when you discovered,

you know, your co-worker, your partner, your friend? She's not an easy person to take down, but like she said, a lot of people confuse us. And so by the time, you know, she was physically back in the office post-injury, you know, it was certainly a concern. We do a lot of follow-up together, not just on homicides, but we do all, our unit does all the death cases in Aurora. So you can just be going to try and talk to a witness, you know, unrelated, but there's a lot of things that happen, especially in big cities. And, you know, every time we were going somewhere, it's a heightened awareness of where we're getting out, who we might be around, you know, kind of what's going on, which sort of comes natural with the job.

But, you know, when you work with somebody so closely, you kind of know, like the old school good cop, bad cop, like who's going to be the feisty or one in an interview? And between the two of us, she's typically the feisty or one, which is okay. It works for the dynamics of interviews that we do together. But, you know, never at any point did she threaten him. Never did she cuss him out. Never was she even have a harsh tone with him. So, and those are kind of instances where you might get somebody to say something kind of rowdy to you or, you know, threaten you. That's not uncommon in law enforcement. But, you know, in this particular case, she didn't do any of those things.

She was very upfront with him. The entire process, you know, what she was there to get his phones and Angela's phones and that she was still working the investigation. Even when he was taken into custody, she was very upfront with him. And, you know, it's frustrating when you do everything right, you know, as far as no coercion, no sort of intimidation, and then still have somebody try and come after you for it. Undoubtedly, of course, we are thankful that Nathaniel Harris did come forward, that he didn't act on those, you know, options and, you know, furthermore, that Detective Olson is here.

And I think, you know, the day that sentencing occurred, it was a relief to see that the jury saw that this wasn't just your typical, I'm going to take your job, I'm going to take you out, kind of like those generic threats that you might get in a heated situation. These were fruitful in the sense that they kept going forward, that he had shown that he would take steps in other instances like the letter with Annabelle, where he did bond somebody out. And so that there was potential that this could happen. And the jury agreed with us.

And ultimately, you know, Detective Olson got some semblance of peace as well that day. Awesome. Thank you. Yeah. And I think, yeah, I mean, And I think that was what was a little different in this as well, is there was some validity to the threat, right? Like these, he had already bonded people out. And so inmates believed he had money that he had the finances and he had the ability

to do it because he'd already done it. And so, you know, I mean, there's. And yeah, I mean, it was, there was more validity to that than I think just, yeah, someone, you know, yelling at you on, on the street. So, yeah, and again, I didn't know when Nathaniel Harris testified, you know, he said, yeah, I just agreed to do it just because I knew how desperate Jim was in that if I didn't agree to do it, that he would find someone that maybe would. Again, I didn't know that. I'd never heard that. I wasn't involved in any of his interviews or any of that part of it.

So, I mean, that was, I guess, the shock to me in the entire trial is what will stick with me and was. like kind of wow like thank you um you know i obviously can't talk to nathaniel harris with my profession um and his situation but um but i mean yeah i mean that was really eye-opening for me right i you know with trials a lot of it you know i i did recaps every day you guys didn't need the recaps you lived it but in that one instant you did learn some new information when you were the victim yeah yeah tell me about sort of finding these, again, court refers them as the sugar babies from seeking arrangement or the website formerly known as seeking arrangement. What they're seeking now? Is that what? They're rebranding or

something. Yes, seeking.com. Yeah. Formally known as seeking arrangements and these sugar babies, you know, Carrie told us the story of being pulled in. How did you find these women and and then get a hold of them. Yeah. So, I mean, again, it was almost a year later. And that was just because of the amount of data that we had to go through. Again, I mean, this was a continuous two and a half year investigation. And it was, I think we had written search warrants to Google, basically under his Google voice account and his Google Gmail that he was using.

and then really going through, I mean, there were multiple women, multiple. Yeah, and then just reading through and kind of, you know, some were just him trying to start a relationship. They didn't reciprocate. Yeah, and then there were some that did and really just trying to then find out who he was communicating with and who they were and then get a hold of them. Yeah, Carrie, so Carrie Higaseth was one of them. I had attempted to reach out to her on multiple occasions and couldn't. And then found out that she had a court date up in Fort Collins. And so I had reached out to one of the Fort Collins detectives that had a relationship with Carrie through her previous domestic violence cases and asked if he would help me get in contact with Carrie.

Again, to CFA. A, she was involved if she knew anything or B, I guess what she did know if she wasn't involved in this plot to kill Angela. Okay. And that's sort of, and are you the one that did all the initial interviews with them or was it a joint effort? Yeah, with, I know I did carry. So when we, so, you know, this happens on March 15th. March 16th, we do the searches. March 17th, I don't know how many warrants I wrote, but for, you know, the Google and the phones and the downloads and so on and so forth.

And ultimately, all those texts or message interactions come from that Gmail account. So really, like, I was going through those once I received the data. You have to have like a login for Google and then they only send it to one person and then you have to download. It's like this whole process. But eventually, you know, we had gone through all these messages and we're seeing these contents. And then, you know, as the co-lead, you help where you can. But of course, homicides kept happening. And about six months after she got this case, I got a whole different case that like took on a, you know, kind of a beast of its own. So I kind of got inundated with that. So it was kind of like I gave her, hey, here's there. Here's these messages.

is you're going to have to look into it. And so she really ultimately did the communications as far as the other females were concerned. Yeah. I mean, it was kind of just reading through and just reaching out. And I spoke to far more that obviously came in and testified, but it was kind of we had to narrow down our, what we put on at trial at some point, right? Like at some point, it's going to be too much information.

There's just going to be too many people involved. And again, a lot of, a lot of them didn't take Jim up on his offers. And so, I mean, it's just, I think they got the point that what Jim wanted and his ability to communicate. Well, and really when you break it down to when these relationships or affairs were occurring, you know, the one that's happening in December, which is kind of part of the catalyst of his, you know, having an affair and they're, had him and Angela having these arguments and she says she's done, don't come home. And then he's then having continued communications into 2023 with Carrie where he's talking about the syringe and, you know, kind of don't you wish we had a purge day type of thing. So those communications were really kind of the tiptoeing into everything that happened versus a lot of the other relationships that were prior and weren't really pivotal as far as the communications between him and Angela leading up to her death.

Yeah. Detective Harris, you brought up that you were working in the domestic violence department doing DV. We touched on this a little bit at the beginning, but really this is a case about domestic violence. That unfortunately ended in murder, but again, it's probably not, you know, the calls you often get. um that department because it wasn't physical it was emotional and this was um you know i'm really passionate on um hidden true crime on our channel to discuss coercive control to discuss abuse for me it was so heartbreaking to hear um angela's journal in uh trial was actually really interesting the defense was like really pushing it because she said she felt abused and couldn't

look at james with any love and i thought yeah that's because she was um i think they were trying to point out that she was depressed it went over my head. That didn't work. But I don't know. I don't know how many years you're in the domestic violence department or what you saw on this or if you were able to bring any of that expertise into this case or what you felt or saw when it comes to Angela's situation. Yes. So I've always had a really big passion for domestic violence prior to being in the homicide unit. That was the unit that I wanted to go to first. Obviously, the stars. did align and it did work out for me. But while I was in that unit, I created my own, we'll call it an

educational program with domestic violence. Honestly, had presented it to the chief at the time. Then COVID happened and interactions within public spaces obviously became very limiting and social distancing and so on. So, you know, through my own personal research as well as just having handled numerous domestic violence cases, specifically felony when I was in the domestic violence unit. There's variations of domestic violence. And I think so many people assume it's, you know, the physical assault, the hit, the punch, the grabbing of the hair, whatever it may be. And so frequently with domestic violence cases, it's a buildup over time.

It is the newness or the honeymoon phase of a relationship going so well. And then slowly over time, whether it's jealousy, whether it's the need of control, those things happen very slowly, whether it's, hey, where are you at? Or we should share locations. And I'm not saying sharing locations with a significant other is bad, but oftentimes that's kind of the first ounce of control in some of these relationships that do go awry. You know, constantly communicating, who are you with? You can't be friends with these people. you can't talk to these people. You know, Angela at one point was in the practice working we learned through this investigation.

Ultimately, she wanted to be at home. She was able to do that. But, I mean, when you look at her and James's communication, it is nonstop. Really, anyone he was talking to is nonstop, but constantly aware of what she's doing and where she is through their communications. You know, he's talking to her and saying things that make her feel good, even at the point that this affair comes up in December of 2022. She says, I'm done. Don't come home. It's clearly that she's probably emotionally at the end of her rope as far as dealing

with what he has put her through. And then he just continues to talk to her. And you can tell how controlling in those communications they are because they end up going to Disney on a trip. And you can tell as most mom or dad trying to on the surface, we're going to deal with our relationship problems and not in front of the children. They're on these trips and she's still trying to work through things with him while she's putting on, you know, a bright face in front of the family. And the entire time, he's saying all these things, saying all these things, you know, oh, we should get a

therapist. Let's let's talk about this. We can figure this out so much so to the point that she at one point says, I've been going at this all wrong. I'm so sorry, you know, we need to work through this. like he has literally manipulated her to the point that she's now apologizing to him for having done nothing besides trying to advocate for the relationship. And so that level of control is honestly a lot of times the hardest or worst part about a domestic violence case because you feel stuck. You feel as though you can't leave. You feel like you have to work through this, especially when there's additional family members in play. And it was very evident that she had been controlled by him for many years and that anything he could say, he knew what to say,

how to say, when to say it, to manipulate her, to be back on board in that relationship. So he's, you know, no longer the bad guy. And those relationships ultimately end up being very toxic. You know, a lot of times you tend to not tell family members about this. Thankfully, in this particular case, Angela had her sister as, you know, her advocate, someone she could go to and talk to, not really as a help me get out of this per se, but just as someone to lean on who also provided pivotal testimony in this case as far as what the relationship looked like. But domestic violence is just so much deeper emotionally. And, you know, I always say you can't see out of it when you're in it because you're so

ingrained into this is what a relationship is like that you're unaware, that there are other options. So well said. Let's be honest. Buying cannabis shouldn't be complicated, sketchy or low quality. That's why I want to tell you about mood.com. That's M-O-O-D.com.

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that care deeply about what they grow. It's cannabis you can trust, delivered discreetly, and ready to elevate your mood. And because you're a listener, you get 20% off your first order. Just head to mood.com. That's mo-o-od.com to get started. One thing that I noticed to the pattern with James Craig was he kept Angela from talking to people, you know, her best friend, her sister, Tony, you know, she goes and visits her and James is texting. You're saying maybe not share what we're going through with your sister. And that just like, that just broke my heart, you know, thinking that this last moment with her sister, she could maybe share something.

And I think that's something that happens to, am I right? Like they'll, like, you know, don't talk to anyone. Let's keep this private or. Well, and I think it's naturally embarrassing a lot of times for people to see that you're in that predicament because I think it's always easier from the outside to say, just get out. Like, you don't need to do this.

This was different. This is a 20 plus year marriage. This isn't something you just walk out overnight on, number one. Six kids, shared finances, a bit. business, right. And on top of that, like, at the point that you're demonstrating or directing or telling somebody who they shouldn't, shouldn't be talking to, it's hidden, again, another level of control. It's you are, that person is aware, meaning James is aware that if these, these people have this information, it's not fruitful for him. It damages his character. It makes him look less bright as far as,

you know, who he is as a person. And he was clearly very concerned about how he was perceived. And again, thankfully, Angela, you know, maybe she's not texting her sister this information, but she's having a phone call about it. She still was, you know, advocating for herself to her sister. But oftentimes that's not what happens. People conceal it. They keep it in. And then you have no idea until, you know, you might find a message or something like that. And it just, he was constantly asserting a level of control and dictating what her life was going to be about. Yeah, coercive control at its finest. And you're right. Smart, brilliant women and men find themselves in these situations and it's very difficult and be very embarrassing to share it with people. Right. And this idea that you can just

get out is so simplified in these complex situations. Yeah, it's, that's probably the biggest misinformation. It's like, just leave. Okay. Well, even if you just leave for the next, and you go to like a local women shelter or you have that, you know, resource within your community, that's a, it's a very temporary fix. And oftentimes you do have to return to the site of where something traumatic happened, whether it's emotionally and verbally or physically.

And oftentimes then all these messages are flooding in that, you know, I'm sorry, I didn't mean it, whatever. And then you're willing to give that, that ounce or level of forgiveness as well. Yeah. You know, I, I admire you both greatly. I've told you about what I feel like you both symbolize in many ways. The only two women in the homicide department who fought for justice, I mean, all of the

homicide department fought for justice for Angela Craig, but the only two women were on the stand together, you know, as expert witnesses in this pursuit of justice, can I ask both of you why you went into law enforcement? Because I feel like there's always a story behind the badge in that sense. And I think oftentimes for women as well, because it's oftentimes something that maybe men more often think about going into than women. And I think you're both inspiring. I have always had an interest in true crime as we kind of touched on. I've that's always just something I've naturally gravitated to. I unfortunately experienced my own domestic violence case when I was 18 years of age.

I had already had an interest in criminal justice, but I was one of those people who kind of couldn't see out when I was in it. Luckily, it didn't get to a level of death, obviously like we're here for. But having gone through that, it just really initiated my drive, my passion, wanting to help everyone, but especially women. Like I said, domestic violence was truly a focus for me as well as eventually working in homicide. I do not regret any ounce of becoming a police officer. There are trying times as a woman. You get called lots of names. A lot of inappropriate things or said in your direction. But you have connections with the public that are so much different than your male

counterparts. It just, it is what it is. And I am lucky, which is weird to say, to have gone through the things that I have that I feel like really emotionally and mentally prepared me to be in this position. And so I come from a little bit different foundation of having gone through some of these

things that people in the public have. And this is my opportunity not only to give back to, you know, the community of Aurora, but also help people with the process because of sometimes the lack of information that is out there of what you can do to help yourself or get out of a situation, isn't there, or maybe not as well known to a lot of community members. And so that was really my drive is to give back as well as from an education. educational aspect, you know, be informative when it comes to domestic violence as well as the world that we live in. Yeah, I don't have a cool story. I don't know. I just have never been one to sit behind a desk.

And I didn't want to sit behind a desk. So I was like, hey, I'll go into law enforcement. I can work weekends and work nights. And I don't have to have a normal schedule. And so I think I just kind of fell into it. I don't. I don't have a cool story. Was the homicide department something you wanted to, to? No, I never wanted to even be a detective. I said I was going to work patrol for my entire career that I never wanted to promote. And then I had a family. And so as a female working patrol with little kids and or while pregnant is not an option. And so I was put into an investigative unit during that time and kind of, I guess, just found my niche, so to speak.

And then, yeah, I was basically forced. I don't want to say forced, but we had officer investigator spots that kind of if we had the staffing and the ability to have investigators come in and get experience before they officially tested for a detective, we could do that. And so I was fortunate enough to be an officer investigator and get that experience until kind of our staffing was kind of at a critical low. And our command staff was saying, you know, these officer investigator spots are going to be around very long. So if this is something you want to do, you're going to have to promote. You're going to have to take the test. And so I did and obviously then got promoted to detective. But again, I think it's something I just fell into, never had any aspirations.

to do it. I'm never promoting above it. I have eight more years left until I can retire. And so I'm, I'll just take this eight more years and stay as a detective. Watch your hallmark movies to be able to keep some sanity. And then you two are, you two work closely together daily then, is that? Oh, yeah. Yes. Well. Yeah, if we're on call together, we typically request that if the stars align based on the call out list, if we can be together on a case, that's typically how happens. We've probably worked 10 homicides, the two of us. I mean, we work as a group, but when you have like a lead, co-lead situation, we've done a lot together. And we just two little busy bees when we're together, just taking off and getting what we need done. Yeah, I think, I mean, it's just you could read my report and read Molly's report and they would be identical.

And so it was we just clicked working together. It's, I know what she's going to do. She knows what I'm going to do. I know she's going to do it, how I like it done, vice versa. And so, yeah, it just works well. We just work really good as a team and we enjoy hanging out. So it works both ways. You know, and I know we need to wind down soon, but, you know, I do want to talk about Angela, Craig, for a minute, too.

And what you both learned about her and who she was as a person. You mentioned that at the very beginning actually, detectables, you know, just talk about Angela, humanizing Angela. That's what this whole thing is about, right, is her and how she is no longer here. Any thoughts about what you learned about this woman? And gosh, the years of researching this case. Yeah, I mean, again, that's what I hate the most about, you know, our trials, because it's really the last worst moments of the victims lives. Whereas that's not how I want to remember Angela.

I don't want anybody to remember her that way. So again, that was another cool thing to hear from the jurors that, you know, we did a good job and they understood who Angela was and we did a good job representing who she was and telling her story above and beyond the 10 days of torture she suffered. So yeah, I mean, her family of 10 siblings, she's the youngest, the upper half, the lower half, the lower five, upper five, their family text messages. I mean, one of her brothers, you know, I was out of the house, by the time Angela was even born, but the close relationship they have together, I mean, Mark and Mark's wife leaving their state. They don't live in Colorado. I mean, picking up their lives and coming to

take care of Angela. I mean, she's 43 years old and has her own children. And that's what the family does. I mean, Mark didn't hesitate. And, you know, Angela wasn't feeling well. We were going to go help her and I can work wherever I want to. I just take my laptop and I don't know I mean I would say there's not a whole lot of families out there that would do that still for their adult siblings and so I mean that family is amazing I mean they gave us strength through this whole case as well to keep going um I mean their stories about Angela just her kind of quick-witted sense of humor um you know, that's carried on into their kids, you know, is something I'll always remember, that's for sure. Yeah, I think, you know, like she touched on trials tough because it's sort of a highlight reel.

And so much is about the suspect and what they did or didn't do and proving it rather than the focus on the victim. them. She was a devoted mother. Her conversations and communications were constantly about homeschooling and what she's doing with the kids and making future plans. Even her own goals were not done. You know, when you go through the communications and even just like her search history, it, I mean, it could have been one of us. It's like clearly she would like read something or see something. And then she's like Googling it to see what it was. But she was looking up. you know, sewing classes in the metro area. Clearly, she had goals to try and do some sort of new activity or hobby.

She wanted to rehab like an old southern house or a plantation house. And she wanted to do that with Jim. I mean, she was communicating that that was something she wanted to do. And so nothing about who we even got to know her as, even if it's just through the data, was someone that was giving up. It wasn't somebody who was ready to be done. It was somebody who had ambitions and goals.

And I mean, she was physically fit and active. She was a, I mean, she was a role model to her children as a, you know, a member of society, you know, staying physically active, trying to do new and adventurous things. And, you know, just essentially showing them that you don't ever have to stop having goals. You know, you don't hit a certain educational plateau that you can't start, stop learning something. And so I think the hard part is, I mean, she could have been one of us, you know, both of us are married and in long-term relationships where we trust our significant other. And she certainly did that. And no doubt her trust was ultimately betrayed and lost her life. But I think the takeaway is that she was an amazing mother, family member, community member who unfortunately, you know, had had her opportunity.

need for life taken from her. I clearly had many, many questions for both of you, but was there anything that either of you wanted to touch on or talk about that perhaps I didn't ask? Yeah, no. I mean, I just want those jurors to know that we thank them. I guess everything they're feeling is 100% normal. And I mean, we couldn't do this job without them.

I think that they're, I mean, for them, they're still processing this as well as I think they probably will be for a while. I just, I mean, I think it's awesome that they all have that group chat together and that they all, you know, have their, her their play dates. You know, they went to the Broncos preseason game. And I would just say, keep doing that. I think getting out there and telling Angela's story and talking about their jury experience, you know, will just just hopefully emphasize that it's something that is needed for our country, really. I mean, for our judicial system to function, you know, and although it has changed their lives, you know, maybe it will be beneficial in the future, maybe they can be, you know, a listening ear to someone in the future that is struggling with something that are going through as a juror

or not or, you know, just really give them more education. and self-worth to be there for someone in the future. And, you know, coming from the domestic violence side of things, I would just like to advocate as someone that has been through, unfortunately, you know, poor experiences and previous relationships that there is a way out. It does take time. It's not easy. It is a challenge. There's hundreds of resources nationwide as far as domestic violence is concerned. And even if you're afraid to come forward, you know, you can always text 911.

You can communicate in other ways. There's other ways to report this. And, you know, there's shelters and other places, especially in our Aurora community available, that would allow you to start that process of getting out of a horrific situation. And if that is the case, you know, please call us. We do want to support. We'll have a link to the domestic violence hotline. in the description of this episode.

And if there are any other additional resources, detectives that you want me to put in, just let me know. And I'll make sure to have that. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. All right.

Well, thank you so much for both being here today. Truly, I am with you in thanking the jurors. They were incredible. They had a very, very difficult job. And justice was served, and as did both of you. And you worked very hard. And you were both excellent. on the stand, a stand I want you to know as well. I will not forget Detective Harris,

your white pantsuit walking in. It was a sigh. It was great. You could see, yeah, it was good with your badge. So thank you, ladies. I'm so glad that you both do work together and that you are in sync and you're doing great things out there. So keep it up. Keep inspiring. Thank you so much. Thank you. At my bank, I was literally getting pennies using well front. Cheching, there's this much that I'm getting an interest and I didn't have to do anything. Clients like Angela earn up to 4.2% APY on their cash with the Wealthfront cash account. Get started at Wealthfront.com. Client was paid $1,000 for their testimonial, creating a conflict of interest.

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Get started at Wealthfront.com. Client was paid $1,000 for their testimonial, creating a conflict of interest. Outcomes vary. 3.3% base API Y as of January 30th, 2026, is representative variable and earned on funds swept to program banks. 0.65% new client boost for three months on up to $150,000. Direct deposit $1,000 a month and fund an investing account for a 0.25% increase. Cash account offered by Wealthfront Brokerage LLC, member FINRA, SIPC, not a bank.