Hidden True Crime - EXCLUSIVE: James Craig Jurors Break Their Silence: “I Couldn’t Sleep and…

Episode Date: August 10, 2025

In this exclusive Hidden True Crime interview, three jurors from the James Craig trial break their silence with Lauren — revealing what convinced them of his guilt, the moments that shocked them most in court, and what it was really like inside the jury room. REMI Go to http://shopremi.com/HIDDEN and use code HIDDEN at checkout for 50% off. About Hidden True Crime: What started as a simple conversation at their dinner table became a captivating podcast. Join the dynamic duo of Dr. John Matthias, a criminal psychologist, and Lauren Matthias, an investigative journalist, as they delve into the psychological facets of unthinkable crimes every week. Their unique perspectives and in-depth analysis offer a fresh take on true crime storytelling. Thank you for your support through sponsorships, subscribing, listening, and becoming a Patreon member at Patreon.com/hiddentruecrime Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Lately, I've been trying to be more intentional about what I wear, intentional about everything, just choosing pieces that feel effortless, still put together, timeless, but also not overthinking it every morning. It's why I keep going back to quince. Their pieces just make getting dressed easier and I feel so classy. I feel elevated. The fits are flattering. The fabric is really high quality. Everything is wearable day to day. I actually got this really, really, beautiful yellow V-neck midi dress from them, and I paired it with some Italian leather sandals. It's one of those outfits that just works. It feels polished but still comfortable. It's exactly what I've been looking for. What surprises me, though, is the quality for the price. Quince

uses premium materials like European linen, organic cotton, but they cut out the middleman. So everything is priced way lower than you'd expect. Refresh. your every day with luxury you can actually use. Head to quince.com slash hidden true crime for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quince, quince, q-u-in-c-com slash hidden true crime for free shipping and 365 day of returns. Quince.com slash hidden true crime. Before I switched to wealth front, my APY was probably 0.1. Once I switched to ching, with a wellfront cash account, earn up to 4.2% APY on your cash. I can trust. Wellfront is taking care of me. Make your money earn more. Get started at

wealthfront.com. Clients were paid $1,000 for their testimonials, creating a conflict of interest. Howcomes vary. 3.3% base API Y as of January 30th, 2026 is representative variable and earned on funds swept to program banks. 0.65% new client boost for three months on up to $150,000. Direct deposit $1,000 a month and fund an investing account for a 0.25% increase. Cash account offered by Wealthfront Brokerage LLC member FINRA SIPC, not a bank. Hello, everyone. We have, in my opinion, a very important interview today. three women that don't want to be identified, I understand, except for by their jurors. We have juror three, juror 14, and juror one when it comes to the James Craig trial.

In other words, justice for Angela Craig, we just saw justice for Angela Craig be served, and we have three of the female jurors with us today. They're actually all in the same place. I saw them all. I sat through a lot of that trial, not all of it, but a lot of it, covered the rest of it from home on WebEx. And this, I do recognize all three of them. They were jurors. A juror 14, I want to say, I'm sorry, you ended up being an alternate juror, which was very difficult for you. Is that right? After everything was said and done? Yes, it was. It was difficult. But all of your, the jurors came back with a guilty version.

verdict. James Craig was found guilty of first-degree murder in killing his wife. His wife of 23 years, the mother to his six children using arsenic, cyanide, oleander, vizine, eyed, a horrific, horrific case. And so I just want to understand the process. It's so interesting talking to jurors after a trial, after justice has been served. And I, my goodness first off I think I want to ask why you three are choosing to do this interview can I can we start with that sure um for me this is juror number three for me um we're in touch with all the other jurors and it's a struggle you know I know it's only been a week since we've been in deliberation but after and going back to work and being able to talk about it with our families, it's not as easy as one might think.

So seeing you from all your face, right, and my aunt watches you and other family members watch you, this might be a little bit of a healing process for me to talk to you. So understand. And this is juror number one. I felt that for people that maybe aren't excited to do their civic duty, it's important because we may be going through things, but somebody told me you have initiated the healing process for the family, and that was very important to hear. And I also wanted to support the other jurors who were going to speak tonight. Thank you. Jure 14? So, I mean, my perception, it was just,

it was just rough. I mean, I went through the whole thing. I took 100 plus pages of notes. I was very invested and then to get put on in the hallway and then get brought back in and tell you and then be released was just awful. I agree and support all of my fellow jurors. They did everything that I felt also, but it was tough because I had to wait for the verdict with everybody else after I had been there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I can't imagine being chosen as an alternate after listening to everything. And what you guys had to hear was so difficult.

I notice some of you crying at times, especially during the testimony of the daughters. I noticed tears. Can I ask, I think I want to ask, well, first of all, were you able to meet? any of Angela's family after the verdict came down? We did. We were notified by one of the sheriffs or the bailiff that some of the kids wanted to speak with us. And so we agreed that we could do that. And when the kids were there, I don't know if the rest of the family heard or they also had intended

to come up, but they also came up, Angela's brothers and sisters. And so it was cathartic for both sides, I think. There were hugs, there were so many tears, and just a feeling of just completion, if that makes sense. It's just we saw it full circle, at least for the jurors that were there. We saw what all of that trauma that we heard, it just put a lid on it. And to know and see the family be so grateful for that, it was very nice. It was very, very comforting.

Yeah. Did any of you know about the James Craig case or any of this before serving on the jury? No. No, I just moved here in 2023. So I don't watch the news. It's depressing. Yeah, I did not know. I remember hearing the headline, but we don't have cable.

So we don't watch news or so it was. Yeah, everything was brand new. Yeah. Well, and I will say when it comes to this case, and one reason I chose to cover it was, it didn't get as much attention as I thought it might. I think the family is quite private, understandably, and they've been quiet, but I felt it was so important to cover.

So, you know, I mean, it clearly has gotten international attention, yet at the same time, not the amount that I thought it was. would have received. So when you're called for jury duty, you sit down for that first day. Did you understand at that moment? Did they explain this is a murder trial or how did they explain this

when you were finally chosen to be on the jury? So when we got called in, there was three different groups. So a morning group, late morning, and an early afternoon. afternoon group. So when I went in the early morning group, I think we were all in there together. We were all together? In the first. Yeah, I think so. So we checked in and we were given a questionnaire, a lengthy one. And it stated in there what the case was, what the trial was going to be. And we turned it in. We received another number. And if that number was posted,

on the site the next day. We were supposed to report on Monday, which we did. And that was a full day with 167 members of the pool that I think there was seven more because there were two rooms. Right. So I think there was 700 total. And then they brought it down to 167. And then we were there all day. On Monday. On Monday. The day before the trial started. okay okay so you hear all of the evidence of course all of us sitting in the gallery or reporting are wondering what all of you are thinking you most of the time i will say it was hard to read all of your emotions except for that day where i did see tears what was it like hearing the evidence did was the defense compelling at all i think the prosecution did such a great job with facts and

details that could not be argued. I think the defense had a really tough go of it as far as just coming up with any kind of plausible. Doubt. Yes, plausible doubt. There's just so much factual information that was presented that it was really, really hard to think, or, you know, that in the end, he, we found him guilty because of all that evidence.

So the prosecution definitely did its job. Let's jump to your, you and your fellow jurors finding him guilty. Take me to the deliberation room. How did that go? I mean, you, let's be honest, you guys took a while. Well, I mean, there were a lot of counts, but you didn't come back until the next. day, what was it like in the deliberation room? Were there any holdouts or anyone that had some questions?

I think as far as getting into, I can talk about my holdout, my experience. This is juror three. And juror one kind of helped me out. The biggest holdout was the six, I believe it was this five or six. the what was it solicitation of first-degree murder. That was the KC Buchanan. That was the KC. Bucannon. With Nate Harris, with Nathaniel Harris.

Okay, I get those two mixed up too. Okay, so Nate Harris, ex-wife or estranged wife, Kauzy. Correct. Okay. So it was, there was a holdout. And that's actually the count that took the longest. We went back and forth. We went through all of the evidence.

And prior to getting to that holdout, we went through, there was jurors that wanted to go through a lot of evidence. And it was okay. I mean, that's what we're there to do, you know. But juror number one, help me, help me get to that guilty. part by, you know, if you want to share what you said to me, it's fine. And, you know, so we didn't have a lot. We didn't have a lot on that charge. However, based on the instructions that we had, we could use things that the defendant had demonstrated, either in behavior, emotion, body language.

And my feeling was that psychology is a science and can be used as evidence if you know patterns, behaviors. And I do have a background in that. So we could say that the defendant's behavior was consistent. It followed a pattern. pattern and it was as much evidence as the testimony that the net that Nate Harris provided. That makes sense. So it doesn't make sense. And there were other solicitation charges and correct.

Correct. Correct. Very and every, every solicitation or every crime that he committed after that was escalating and be. behavior. And so it was not, it was, it was, it was, it was not out of his demonstration of his behaviors. So. Right. Right. Well said. Um, thanks for taking us into, yeah, that sort of difficult deliberation you guys do. But when it comes to first degree murder, was everybody feeling, by the time you got to the deliberation room, similarly, did you learn? Yes, absolutely.

Everybody was unanimously. We did our due process. We went through the evidence. We went through text. Yes. We went through everything just to make sure that we were doing everything that we could to not interfere with the decisions that we made, that it was solid.

And so throwing out charge seven almost was just that that's what happened, which is this idea that there was an a, that, that he, the defenses argument that he may be aided in self-harm. That was just not an issue. Correct. Our understanding was that that was something that James Craig and the defense requested. And the judge, yes, at the end. And so the judge felt there was enough evidence to support that. I'm not sure if I'm wording that right. But there was enough information that that could be an option for us.

So, but there was never that option for us. Yeah. You know, true crime isn't the only thing that keeps me up at night. I didn't realize I was grinding my teeth until the headaches got worse and then a sore jaw. At first, I thought it was stressed because, let's be honest, I live in murder trials. But John finally told me, I'm a teeth grinder. Great. Well, now what?

That's when I found Remy. And thank goodness I did. If you're one of the 30% of Americans who grind their teeth, you need to protect that smile. And Remy is the best solution I've found. It's a custom fit night guard that's 80% less than what you'd pay at a dentist and way easier. Here's how it works.

They send you an impression kit straight to your door. It comes with super clear step-by-step instructions. Took me maybe five minutes. You send it back and they craft a custom fit night guard right here in the U.S. in Las Vegas. A few days later, I had a night guard that actually fit. No drooling, no discomfort, just peace of mind and fewer headaches. Remy even gives you a 45-night perfect fit guarantee so there's zero risk. No waiting rooms, no outrageous dental bills, just a smarter way to protect your teeth while you sleep.

Try Remy risk free at shopRemi.com slash hidden and use code hidden to get up to 50% off your night guard. That's shop REMI.com slash hidden and don't forget to use code hidden. Thanks to Remy for sponsoring this episode. For the three of you, and I know the order you're sitting, it's JER 3, JR 14 and Jure 1. What were some of the most compelling testimonies for you? can we start with, well, you can start with whoever. Maybe just mention your number so we can understand. Okay, this is journal number three.

Compelling for me was obviously both of his daughters. Yes. I'm a step-parent. I don't have children of my own per se. And I just couldn't believe it. I just could not believe that he had one of his daughters go to the courthouse to Bales. I just couldn't I just couldn't fathom that that. And then another person that was for me as far as just evidence goes, believe it or not, was Oleg, and I can't pronounce his last name,

but he was the either can I just that makes you feel like right he was the king super guy and that tied up for me that you know and the judge was so great I mean everybody was so great

but I didn't want to form an opinion that soon because we're not supposed to do that but those were compelling witnesses for me yeah Oleg referring to the man who pulled the pulled the receipt from the King's Superstore for the vizine eye drops that day.

Yes, for two different days in the time. And, you know, my father is LDS. And they, him and his wife, their pantry is full. And that was one of the defenses, defense. You know, hey, they buy in bulk. So I'm familiar with that. But 19 bottles of vizine in a span of two days at 10.50 p.m. it was it was compelling oleg was compelling to me right so not only is he buying potassium cyanide

he's buying the vizine correct yep what about uh the other two yep 14 i feel like for me also the daughters the brother the sister-in-law it and then him admitting to the fact that he ordered at all. Like how do you come back from that? You actually admitted. And the fact that he put his kids in that line of fire is like disgusting to me. But yeah, that was like there was too much evidence. Like he's literally admitting to it without admitting to it because he's trying to cover things up. And to involve your young kids, it's just awful. But yeah, once there was evidence that he had ordered it all and then admitted to mixing it all saying what he said it was like it was a I had no questions after that but I couldn't say anything right you can't talk you can't

say everybody I went home and lost my mind you went home and lost your mind I mean I see that as a joke because my husband's like, how's your day? And I'm like, not great, but I can't talk about it. So how does your day? Yeah. And at that point, I'm sure they're figuring out that you're covering a fairly high profile case. And yeah, I can't imagine. They have an understanding. I just don't know what to do with it, which we don't either. Right. I can't imagine that. In fact, I want to get into that. But really quickly, juror one, what testimony is affected? Well, same as the other ladies. The second daughter who was sent to bail out, that was, it was her word, but it was also the letter that he wrote to her that we saw in the deliberation room.

It was such for a kiddo that age to be asked by her father, who she doesn't know. any better and just to be roped in like that and so sweet and so innocent and she wants to help dad but yeah the that you expose your kids to the dangers that he did um there was also testimony that he had tried to that with the um i think it was the the bobby olson solicitation that they should take pictures of Detective Hillstrand's son at a bus stop to intimidate Detective Hillstrand and that his son would know that James Craig's son would know how to find that detective Hillstrand. So it was the those kinds of things, if anyone had taken him up on that within the system, the danger that

those kids could have been in. And even, you know, if you're, when the testimony came that there were cyanide or, excuse me, tetrahydroxia, that it was placed in these cups and kids take sips out of cups. And that was also very compelling. Like there's just nothing that you do not think of if it's not about yourself. Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. Take me back. I mean, you already touched on it a bit. How was it like covering this trial? It was so heavy. I know, because I was reporting on it. Can imagine what each of you are dealing with. You're going home. and you can't talk to your significant others or your family. How did you guys handle this day and day out?

I personally, I couldn't sleep, Lauren. So we typically had a report between 8 and 815 every day. And I mean, I was waking up at 3 o'clock in the morning. I could not sleep. And I would just jump on the treadmill, jump on the weights, and just work out. And that kind of helped me clear my head. But, yeah, try to go to bed early because you're not talking to your partner, your

significant other. There's nothing to say, you know. So working out help me a little bit. Yeah. Right, right. I mean, this must have been so hard. You couldn't sleep. J.

J. Oh, well, same. Yeah, I was, I was hardly sleeping. I had no appetite. I mean, it was just a mess. And not a mess. I shouldn't say that. It was a mess for me because it's like, I want to go home and talk to my husband, but I can't.

I can't. So it was the same. I mean, it just was tough. And you don't sleep. I woke up at like 2, 3 a.m. just with anxiety. And then you walk into the room. with anxiety. Like every day we had to walk in there on my stomach was like turning.

Turning. Yeah. Yeah. For juror one, the same thing, just knots in the stomach, having trouble getting to sleep, not being able to stay asleep. And my husband asking, how is jury today? and I'd say it was bad or it was good and he'd say I'm sorry and that was it because they know you can't say anything you can't talk about it. My coping was a little different because my daughter is starting to learn how to drive.

So I would go pick her up from activities and she would drive home and it would put that right out of my mind for just a bit because And then I'd experience a different kind of anxiety. Right. I was like a different fear. Right. Yes. Yeah. Oh, my goodness.

How did you guys feel after you were able to announce the verdict? Was there relief? Definitely relief. But it was also, for me at least, it was a feeling of loneliness. Boom. Oh my gosh. That's it right there. I agree.

I just told my husband I felt isolated. Yes. I felt isolated. Yes. Oh my gosh. Yes. Oh, now I'm about to cry. And that is you have to hold on to your emotions through all of this and put on this poker face, not say anything to anybody about it.

the feeling of isolation and loneliness because we did we did have to work at keeping our faces straight at not showing emotion at pretending that oh we just had a day at jury when you got home and then once that gate was opened it was almost like where do I start how do I even talk about this horrible thing that has happened And there was we hadn't, I didn't have enough time to process how I was going to talk about it or what that was going to feel like. And when people started to ask questions, it felt intrusive in the beginning when we could talk about it. Yeah. Okay.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. It's tough. Like how do you even process it with that? Like how do you even like?

Correct. I'm not even sure that there's a sense of dissociation. You cannot believe that you have just heard the deception, the pure evil and selfishness that a human could put another human through. Yeah. You just, there's so many, I can't believe it. Did I really just hear all of this? because in the moment where you're busy taking notes and so you're writing it all down

and you don't have time to think about what you really heard until the end of the day or the night or when you're talking with someone and then it kind of gets you in the gut all over again. Yeah, yeah. And you did hear a lot of deception, a lot of evil, a lot of manipulation. Yeah.

Did you know that this was possible? I mean, no. No. I sat in the jury room. I juror number three sat next to juror number 14. We sat right next to each other. And I think it was Thursday, the first week when both daughters were the end of the day.

And we came back to the room and we were waiting to get escorted. home and my eyes were puffy her eyes were puffy and i i literally lost a piece of humanity that day and i i don't know i i hope i get it back because you know i i work with kids you know i i don't know it's it's difficult yeah yeah that was that was well sad um you know, we couldn't always see James Craig reactions because we sat behind him. Would he look at you? What was he doing throughout the tribe? Okay.

We're going to have, we're going to have, we're going to have, we're going to have, we're going to have, we're going to have, we're going to have, she's going to be spot on. And with her background, she, she understands this. Okay. So it was a very intentional way that he reacted and specific to certain pictures that would go up on the monitors. So he would go between the sobbing, but there were no tears. Okay. I wondered about that because I would see that sometimes, but I couldn't.

I was too far away. A bright red face, but there were no tears. It was very put on, I felt. And then there were times when he would, if a witness was providing testimony that was shocking or something that was accusatory in nature, he would do this thing where his mouth would hang open and he would just put on a bewildered face,

like, why? are you saying is you know this is wrong it's a lie yes i agree i agree i agree yes and then there was the stare downs that he had with uh nate harris there was no love lost between those two okay i was wondering how he acted to the inmates the snitches yeah yeah it's crazy yes so um those were the the typical reactions that we saw that none of them seemed genuine Okay. Okay. The one that he reacted to repeatedly was where one of the daughters is in bed with mom at the hospital. He reacted to that one with prolific sobbing, each and every total.

The photo of the little one? Yes. Oh, yeah. Yes. So. Huh. Just very, very. Like tears, sobbing tears, sobbing tears in that moment?

I don't think so. There was tissue up to the eyes, but he was able to control himself quite quickly. And suddenly the red would go out of his face and he would be composed, which is not behavior that when I've seen somebody fall apart, that is insistent. Right. So it was, he was, in my opinion, was trying to continue to manipulate the jury with his reactions to this. He was trying to manipulate the jury. Yeah, all of you. Absolutely.

By doing all of these facial expressions and trying to. At shocked. Yes. At shocked. Like on things. Like, why are you shocked? you literally admitted to doing this. Why are you shocked?

And with his mouth open. Yes. I know what you're saying because he would be like, what? That never happened. Yes. And then it would literally be like, no, it literally happened. Yes. Yes.

Yeah. Yeah. Right. A good point because he did admit while he in the end admitted or confessed to saying, look, I just aided in, you know, her desire to self-harm. He did. admit and confess to doing this, right? So yes.

Yeah. At my bank, I was literally getting pennies using wealthfronts. Chiching! Meet Angela, a wealthfront cash account client since 2023. I left my job, not having something else lined up yet. I was pregnant with my second. We had to think about how do we make our money work for us. Every month, there's this much that I'm getting an interest in.

I didn't have to do anything. My money is working hard on its own. and I can trust wealthfront is taking care of me. With the wealthfront cash account earn up to 4.2% APY on your cash. No account fees, no minimums, and no strings attached. Plus, free instant withdrawals to eligible accounts. Get started at wealthfront.com. Client was paid $1,000 for their testimonial, creating a conflict of interest.

Outcomes vary. 3.3% base API as of January 30th, 2026 is representative variable and earned on funds swept to program banks. 0.65% new client boosts for three months on up to $150,000. Direct deposit $1,000 a month and fund an investing account for a 0.25% increase. Cash account offered by Wealthfront Brokeridge, LLC, member Finra, SIPC, not a bank. Instant withdrawal subject to conditions, fees and eligibility requirements may apply to certain checking features of the cash account. Before I switched to wealth front, my APY was probably

0.1. Like, it was a joke. I was literally getting pennies. Once I switched chiching. With a wealthfront, earn up to 4.2% APY on your cash. The high APY with Wellfront was a clear winner. There are no petty fees. Every month, there's this much that I'm getting an interest, and I didn't have to do anything. is working hard on its own, and I can trust wealth front is taking care of me. Earn more on your uninvested cash with a wealthfront cash account. No account fees, no minimums, and no strings attached. Get started today at wealthfront.com. Clients were paid $1,000 for their testimonials creating a conflict of interest. Outcomes vary. 3.3% base API as of January 30th,

2026, is representative variable and earned on funds swept to program banks. 0.65% new client boosts for three months on up to $150,000. Direct deposit $1,000 a month and fund an investing account for a 0.25% increase. Cash account offered by Wealthfront Brokerage LLC member FINRA SIPC, not a bank. These in eligibility requirements may apply to certain checking features of the cash account. Gosh. And what about the sugar babies? That's how the court referred to them or his multiple affairs.

I guess it was mostly for motive, right? But did those affect? I mean, for me, I still will tell you, and I said this in the deliberation room, motive was weak for me. It was very, very weak. But, you know, the sugar babies, you know, I felt bad that they had to testify. Like, I mean, you know, I felt bad for them. But I really, really wanted to give Karen Kane.

Oh, yes. Grace. I wanted to give her a hug when she, you know, was dismissed because she looked heartbroken, deceived, just played after going through a terrible divorce, never being with anybody else for 30 years, I believe. And then he played her. And then he played her. I, that, that tore me up a little bit.

Yeah. So if that was motive, I mean, because it seemed she was very spiritual, they were in the same field. Maybe that was motive. I don't know. Motive was still very, very light for me. Did you all feel that way? No, I did not feel that way. I, yeah, I'm, I just thought why I lived here like that.

I don't either, because I think he was just selfish and he wanted to have his cake and eat it too. That's juror 14. And when he learned that he couldn't have full, he did what he had to do because he had Karen King come the same week. He killed his wife. Yeah, I just think he's a selfish human being. And he hurt so many people. Yeah, I'm not saying that he's not. heart. No, you're not, you know. I'm not saying that he's not a psychopath, narcissistic, evil

person, but it, why? I mean, there was, there was no reason. Well, I don't think he's just, yeah, yeah, I just think he was selfish and wanted to have all of their relationships that he could. Yeah. Right. And that's all I think his motive is just wanting, I think for me, Jure 1, it was motive. Just because there is a pathology that is out there that you can describe and see what the benefit was to him. Image was very important as well as his self-importance as far as being able to travel the world to do all of these conferences and the importance that the self-importance and the admiration that he got from these sugar babies, it's power.

And then with Karen Kane, here's an orthodontist with a successful business. And what would be better for your image than to merge those two worlds together? Right. So it was definitely fitting with, at least what I thought was a narcissistic personality disorder. I concur. Yeah, what are your thoughts, by the way? What do you think is... I agree? Wrong with this. Yeah, narcissistic. Yeah, narcissistic. Like, to a T. He's literally the most narcissistic, selfish person I've ever. Yeah, encountered. And so I don't think the, they tried to use sex addiction and maybe, but. It was ego.

I think it was ego. Yeah, I think it was ego. I think it was ego. And it didn't seem like for somebody with sex addiction, it is very difficult to treat. But it seems that if it seems that if, If his wife knew, which she did, she did everything to help him, try to, it didn't sound like he had stayed in counseling for very long. This can be a lifelong battle for a couple that's gone through it. So I just felt that he was going through the motions.

But then he would do it again. But again, the motive was self-serving. Right. Absolutely. And as far as Karen Kane, she also has my sympathy. The other, to me, it was consenting adults. Everybody made their choices. Everybody else. Yeah.

I don't have sympathy for that. Yeah. Karen. He knew he was married. Yeah. Karen had a completely different experience. Yes. Yeah.

Yes. She was an unfortunate victim. Yeah, victim and all of this. Would it have made a different? Did you guys want him to testify? Were you hoping? Yes. Yes.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Oh, did you not? I didn't think he would. No. I didn't think he would either. But I hoped he would.

But I was hoping the narcissistic part of him, he would want to come up there and explain. Yep. If you're put. And I do have to say. I think both the prosecuting side, the state and the defense and the judge, they were awesome human beings. They, I'm a coach, so I believe in sportsmanship. I don't want anybody to, you know, play unfair.

They were all very professional, respectful to one another. They all did their job. But yeah, I wanted the defense attorneys to tell them, you need to get up there. If you're going to use your kids, you know, ideation or this idea are a pact, right, a pact, let's call it a pact. Yeah, what it is. Yes, this pact. Then you need to get up and explain this. Don't have me cross witnesses to get to pull this out of them.

I, you know, so I was hoping. I didn't think he would. But we were all hopeful, I think. I'm sure it was at the advice of the defense attorneys. They were very smart ladies, very smart ladies. I'm sure it was on their advice. Do not take that stand. Right.

Because the prosecution would have just destroyed him. but I didn't think he had anything to lose at that point you know right sure why not they had to have known well with appeals and all that stuff yeah true very very true what is so would it have made a difference to any of you if he had testified were you hoping for some little nugget or as you're saying he had nothing to lose you kind of saw the writing on the wall so can I say because yes because I I didn't even get to decide on. Yes, go ahead. Go 14.

I would say it didn't make a difference. I knew he was guilty. I just wanted to hear if he would have anything to say. Nothing would have changed on how I felt, but I was curious if he was going to talk. And he didn't, which also I kind of said a lot. Yeah. So yes, that's my thought on it. And I didn't get to deliberate on it.

But I thought he would have. And I think we all kind of looked at each other, all 14 of us, because I don't know if you know, Warm, we, the second week we lost a juror. So the last week and a half, I believe we were only 14. So we all kind of looked at each other when the defense rests. And we were like, oh, wow. I mean, we really didn't expect that, you know. And closing, I mean, I think I watched, you know, true crime and ID and all that. I think, what's his last name? I always mess it up. Mike Morrow. Mike Morrow had the best closing arguments that I've ever seen. Yeah.

It wasn't excellent. It was excellent. Yeah, I agree. I concur with someone that also dabbles in true crime. Yeah. It was excellent closing arguments. I agree. I thought it was interesting that his defense attorneys were female.

How did you, how did you react to them? Did you think they did a good job? Who was his initial? Oh, so yeah. Can we talk about this, Lauren? Who was his initial defense attorney? We had no idea that I didn't know that this was his fourth attorney until they started reading letters and then I found out after and there's arson and this and this what happened

yeah I have no clue we had no idea did you um I so I wasn't following every turnaround of attorneys but right before the trial his two attorneys uh were a husband and wife team Moses and there was a situation. Yeah, arson. That was her husband. Wait, what? I don't even know how to, what? You burned the house down. Like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I thought the trial would be pushed back. We thought, we thought, oh, this trial is going to be pushed back now again. And the judge is like, nope, moving forward. So there was new defense co-counsel and they move forward. So Lisa Moses, that was her husband? Yeah. Yeah, you guys had no idea. But for those of us following the case, it was a fascinating twist of this case going to get more wild.

So here we are. This is attorney for Aurora Dentist accused of putting. wife, the one arrested, has been now arrested for alleged arson. And he withdraws on the eve of the trial. His name is Robert Working. And he was the second attorney for the James Craig trial. And he is married to Lisa Moses. I didn't know that. We did not know that. Why is that okay? Oh my gosh. Why is that okay? So, yeah, that happened on. So this is, Robert working withdrew as counsel for murder suspect, murder suspect James Craig on Tuesday, just two days after his arrest,

and just 10 days before Craig's murder trial was set to start. And so that, yeah. And then his working owned the home that burned with his wife, Lisa Fine Moses. So yeah. And then attorney Ashley Whitham joined the team on June 18. So she was part of the team, but not. Well, that would explain some things.

Wow. I don't really know how to process that. I mean, you didn't know that about, yeah. So I was watching Attorney Moses throughout the entire thing because of knowing what she had just gone through. Oh my God. And burned the house down, literally, you know, you say that. Like he has nothing to lose. He's just going to burn the house down. He did it. So, yeah, that happened.

So with that, yeah, what did you guys think of this? Defesty? Well, we thought, yeah. We loved her. Yeah. We loved both of them. But Lisa. Interesting.

Yeah, we. Well, love them because we felt like they were like, they were doing their job. And they were strong women. We hate the position that they were in. Yes. Yes. But we respected them. Yes.

Respected. tell like they were bold doing they didn't go through the motions they really worked i mean they did the best they could with the hand it they clearly were dealt yeah you know yeah that's interesting to hear that's good to hear i i actually am always curious what the jurors think of the defense team and i've always noticed with jurors that sometimes some attorneys have killed to them more than other attorneys and so i i respect that you respected them and what they're doing their job is difficult and that you thought they did a good job. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Women, nonetheless, you know. That's right. No, they, they, they did their job. Yeah.

Yeah, they did. They did. And of course, the prosecution, how did, how did you feel they did? Oh, I mean, they, when they initially, for me, when they put Bobby Olson on a stand in the beginning and they said, a couple questions and we'll get back to you when they ended with her and they tied up the entire timeline i mean it they were phenomenal all three of them were phenomenal uh the two ladies that were i believe they're paralegals behind them i might be mispronounced you know you're not saying they're correct jobs and i apologize um and then bobby olson every day there with them. It spoke volumes, you know.

And I know that there was a little bit of a question like, oh, you didn't get this tested and this and this. You know, there's budgets, you know. I thought they were great. And relevancy. I mean, they were moving as quick as the case was. And so they were. They just had so much that was occurring and evolving throughout the whole two years that they were able to do as well as they did.

He kept running. It was amazing. Molly Harris also just powerful. It was, I mean, about girl power. Bobby Olson and Molly Harris as detectives on this. Incredible, right? their jobs and they killed it. Killed it.

Sorry. Yeah. No, no. They killed it. They killed it. And yes. Yeah. A lot of powerhouse women in this case, as you're pointing out.

And when they were being questioned, like took the questions well, took the degrading well, like, took all of it well. Yeah. It was. The cross. They were very well spoken, articulate. And there was a lot of confidence because what they knew they had was. very there were two and three

artifacts of evidence that they could produce to corroborate and lend credibility to the investigation yeah can I add one thing more to that team

is for not knowing anything about the case or any person they made for me, they made Angela Craig alive in that courtroom. Yes. If that is the best way that I can explain,

and I got it, I understood. Yeah. I'll tell you my next question. Was your thoughts on Angela Craig? I think she was a great mom, a great sister, a great daughter. And I don't think anything bad to be on that. because we all go through shit and I think she was killing it at everything she was doing.

Spiritual. Yeah. Yes. Mother. Like, it sounds like she was just amazing. And when you see who showed up to support her, I think that kind of speaks about. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. She was even a great wife.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I even know. Yeah. Yeah. At my bank, I was literally getting pennies using wealth front.

Cha-ching, there's this much that I'm getting an interest and I didn't have to do anything. Clients like Angela earn up to 4.2% APY on their cash with the wealthfront cash account. Get started at wealthfront.com. Client was paid $1,000 for their testimonial, creating a conflict of interest. Outcomes vary. 3.3% base API as of January 30th, 2026 is representative variable and earned on funds swept to program banks. 0.65% new client boost for 3 months on up to $150,000. Direct deposit $1,000 a month and fund an investing account for a 0.25% increase.

cash account offered by Wealthfront Brokerage LLC member FINRA SIPC, not a bank. I agree with the sentencing when your sibling said you never deserved, you know, a light like Angela was. I was touched. You guys, you know, it was mentioned in the press conference that many, if not all of you, went back to watch the sentencing. Did all the jurors go back to watch the sentencing? No, no. I personally couldn't do it. It was tough.

I couldn't do it. And I couldn't do it. And I wish I would have actually for the kids. But it was so hard. Yeah, no. There were eight of us that stayed. We were escorted around the front and led into the back of the gallery. And so.

We do know, I think the defense, or no, excuse me, Mr. Brackley mentioned it at the press conference that it was unusual for the judge to let. For the jury to sit and watch the sentencing. So it was very powerful and a good testament to Angela. all those folks that got up to speak on her behalf. And she had an amazing family. She did. There was one comment made by the daughter, Miriam, that broke my heart. I mean, her entire test, her entire sentencing victim impact statement broke my heart. All of them did.

But at the very end, she apologized to everyone. Just like, I'm sorry that we're all here. And somehow that just really affected me. Like, you know, here she is. Just clearly she's a caretaker like her mother. She has said she was her, her mother was her best friend apologizing to everyone in that courtroom that they're even there. I was somehow just so heartbreaking to me.

It's funny that you say that because I think week two, at one point I, you know, it was the same family members that were there every day. And I just looked up one morning and I'm like, oh my gosh. We're all here because of one person and this whole family and jurors and defense and prosecutor and judge and bailiff for one person to do this. It's just, it's heartbreaking. Right. It is. One person caused this, this absolute pain and tragedy and it will it will echo through generations. You know? Yes. Yeah.

All of you are friends now. Now, yes. Now we're connected for life. Yeah. Yeah. Tell me about that. You're all together in the same room. They're all in the same room.

Maybe I didn't even share that. You're all in the same room. We're not on different lines here. Tell me about how you've been able to support each other after and how each of you are doing. We have a chat group that coach started. And so all of the jurors are on it. And we text back and forth. Somebody will post an idea or, and somebody did ask,

how is everybody doing this weekend or how is everybody coping? And so everybody's been very honest on the chat. we post silly anane things as well. Triggers. Yes, triggers we call them. Because nobody else knows what we're going through. So we can post those things to each other, but it doesn't mean anything to anybody else. But it's how we coped and how we cope with reemerging back into this, what used to be.

Oh, it's just a boring average day. But I don't think, at least speaking for me, and I can probably speak for the rest of the group, our day will never be the same as before this trial. And there probably won't be a day that we don't think of Angela. Nope. And her family. And her family. And her family.

Her family is like literally on my mind all day every day. Yeah. So yeah, we have an activity that we'll be doing in a few next week, I think. So juror number one set it up. Yes. Yeah, no, it's literally. We are, my boss has very graciously offered to host us at her corporate Bronco suite. And it's for the jury.

Yeah. And alternate. And I'll turn it. Everybody, I mean, everybody was on the jury. Yeah. You know, people that aren't with us. I mean, when we say the jury, we of course need all of us. Yes.

So. Right. Not just the three of you, but the entire jury. The entire jury. And she wanted that for us. She, when she heard, because she would call and talk to me and see how I was doing. And I would tell her, you know, we're, there's some of us in the. the jury that are struggling. And she said, her heart went out immediately. And she said, what can I do?

What can I do? And she said, I'm sure this is going to sound stupid. But what if we, what if I hosted one of the Broncos pregames? And you guys could just go, cut loose. She said, I have regular seats so I can go sit outside. And I said, no, no, no. You have to be in there with us to witness this, this miracle that is us now. Yeah. Yeah. And, but no. But no. But no. But no. But. But. But no. But. But know, that's what we'll be doing in the next couple of weeks. And so we'll all get back together, see each other. And we're all excited. We're all talking about it.

Yeah. She's going to have therapy dogs there for us. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm holding a dog. Yeah. That's what I want to ask you.

You reminded me, did you know, oh, go ahead. No, go ahead. Keep, continue on. No, we're done. No, we're done. We're done. Did you know that there was a therapy dog in the courtroom? No. No. No. What? Fancy. There was a therapy dog named Fancy that both of the daughters were petting the entire time they testified.

Oh my gosh. How did we not see that? Oh, that's why we had to leave. Oh, that's why that we were asked. We left. And then when we came back in, Marion was on the stand. And then we left. And then Annabel was on the stand. Yes. Oh, okay. No, we did not know that. And you know, this was, Angela was a huge animal lover. They had many pets. And that was a process to allow that. There was objection by defense attorneys, you know, saying, or, you know, I should say there were sidebars where they said their objection. I guess I don't know for a fact, but they would say we continue our objection, but you never actually heard that the objection was for the dog. I just am assuming it was implied.

And, but they had to meet several times and they had a, they had the, the trainer of the dog. The dog was so well behaved. They did a practice run. And I could see the entire time and both of the daughters, both of the girls, they're women, excuse me, but, you know, Angela's girls. Yes. Yes. They, they did pet this. dog the entire time they testify.

That's yeah. And then after I noticed that they received little little stuffed dogs after their testimony and I think from the trainer and the dog sing was fancy. Oh my gosh. Yeah, so you had no idea. No. No, we did not know that.

No idea. Yeah. So dogs are amazing. Dogs are amazing. So when you mentioned therapy dogs or. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Wow.

I'm trying to think what else. We covered Lisa Moses's husband, you know, and she did do, I want to say an incredible job. Can you imagine going through that and then being a defense attorney on that case? And then those daughters did an incredible job. I mean, there were so many people that really came through and all of you. you. So for justice for Angela. So I just want to commend all of you. Oh, thank you. And please tell your fellow jurors. Thank you for me as well. Absolutely. Absolutely. Um, yeah.

Trying to think if there are any other questions like that or anything else I can share with you. I have a question for you, Lauren. Yeah, please. Because, you know, we were so guarded and shielded, you know. So when we would leave the courtroom, did, I mean, I always wanted to know if Tulliver, Craig, right, the oldest son, or the only son, he would, we noticed, the jury noticed that he would move back and forth, right? He would sit on this side and sit on this side and sit on this side and sit on this side. was there any ever any interaction with james crag towards any of his family members before we came in like you know before court started nothing major um nothing major but yes he would look back um that's when i would see him mostly you know and he i did see him red face like all of you i can't

tell up there tears or not that's why i asked um i know i know noticed him looking at Tolliver the first day before you came in. And he would try to look back and communicate. His parents were there every day too. And I noticed that as well with Tolliver. I noticed that someone sort of mentioned that he tried to do that, you know, that he would try to go back and forth, sort of just showing how this family, in my opinion, this is my take on it, just sort of how this family is sort of.

divided and torn apart, you know, because of this man. Like he's, he's hurt too. I think he loves his grandparents. Oh, yeah. And so how tough for him to be like in between. Yeah. Yeah. And the only son, you know, the only son in this family.

Yeah. And that's his father. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, so much. Yeah. And just a lot of, you know, covering while you're gone,

you know, the objections and again, the dog was one part of that while you were out of the room. Yeah. Trying to think what else that. I mean, there were a lot of things, but I'm trying to think, trying to go back and think of what I saw to tell. I actually felt you guys did an outstanding job. There was once where the defense was chastising, you know, one of the jurors for falling to sleep. I thought, oh my gosh. Like they've had like they've had like more white noise and they've had testimony today.

You know, let's cut him a break. And then of course, you know, the last weeks I missed. I was actually at other sentencing scenes and being a mother. So I couldn't make it back. But yeah, but I was watching every day. So those are the things I remember. But yeah. So any other questions?

or anything else you want to say, any of you want to say? Yeah, I just want to say again about Lisa, Moses, and Ashley. We talk about their professionalism and a losing hand, but the respect of the manner that they cross-examined certain witnesses was so sensitive and sincere that for me, it's just like kudos. Like when they cross-examine the daughters and they cross-examine the brother and Tony,

the sister, they have to ask these questions and we all know this. And I get a little triggered. I get a little cringy. But they did a heck of a job. They really, really did. You know, I mean. So I just want to add that.

Like, you know, their client, obviously, was is guilty you know but they did a really good job i appreciate that yeah um i agree a good defense is so important and they have a tough job and they had a tough job yeah they made sure he had a fair trial yeah right which will help with everything in the end that helps angela and justice in the end yes right yeah Well, thank you. Anything else? Anything else for a teenager one? No, I think so. No, it's been covered. We hope they heal. We hope the family heals and Angela's legacy because she has a large legacy.

Hopefully it goes on and, you know, they're good. They have a lot of people that love them. Yeah. You know, her legacy. Yes. I believe it well. I believe it well. And you're right. We saw that in that trial and in that sentencing, the legacy Angela has left and it will go on for generations for love and might. Yeah. There's there's a saying out there that the grief will never end, but a new normal will appear. So well said. That's what we hope for the family. Thank you. With grief, all the colors are just dimmed. Yeah. I mean, and this is personal, but I lost my dad, and I'm like, all the colors are dimmed,

but I'm still so loved and my life will be good, and they're so loved, and life will be good. Yeah. But things are just not as bright. Yeah. So well said. Thank you for those parting words. I appreciate you women so much for coming forward, allowing me to talk to you. being willing to talk and sharing your experience with this trial and being jurors.

And thank you for your service. Thank you, Lauren. Thank you. Yeah, we appreciate you. Thank you. You've covered all of this so well. It's great. Oh, thank you.

At my bank, I was literally getting pennies using wealth fronts. Chuching, there's this much that I'm getting an interest and I didn't have to do anything. Clients like Angela earn up to 4.2% APY on their cash with the wealth front cash account. Get started at Wealthfront.com. Client was paid $1,000 for their testimonial, creating a conflict of interest. Outcomes vary. 3.3% base API as of January 30th, 20206 is representative variable and earned on funds swept to program banks. 0.65% new client boost for three months on up to $150,000.

Direct deposit $1,000 a month and fund an investing account for a 0.25% increase. Cash account offered by Wealthfront Brokerage LLC, member FINRA SIPC, not a bank. At my bank, I was literally getting pennies using wealthfront. Chaching, there's this much that I'm getting an interest in. I didn't have to do anything. Clients like Angela earn up to 4.2% APY on their cash with the wealthfront cash. account. Get started at wealthfront.com. Client was paid $1,000 for their testimonial, creating a conflict of interest. Outcomes vary. 3.3%.3% base API why as of January 30th, 2026,

is representative variable and earned on funds swept to program banks. 0.65% new client boost for three months on up to $150,000. Direct deposit $1,000 a month and fund an investing account for a 0.25% increase. Cash account offered by Wealthfront Brokerage, LLC, member FINRA, SIPC, not a bank.