Hidden True Crime - Facial Expressions, Body Language,& What Kouri Richins’ Speech REALLY Revealed | Psychologist Reacts

Episode Date: May 15, 2026

Just before being sentenced for the murder of her husband, Eric Richins, Kouri Richins addressed the court in a dramatic sentencing statement that left many people questioning what was real, what was strategic, and what it revealed about her state of mind. In this episode, Lauren Matthias and forensic psychologist Dr. John Matthias break down Kouri’s sentencing speech, the heartbreaking victim impact statements from Eric Richins’ family and children, and the judge’s decision to sentence her to life without parole. Together, they analyze Kouri’s words, demeanor, emotional presentation, and courtroom behavior through both a psychological and investigative lens while unpacking the larger themes of grief, manipulation, narcissism, family trauma, and accountability that defined one of Utah’s most shocking murder cases. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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We look like who? SpongeBob and Patrick. Spongebob and Patrick. That's what she just said. Yeah, I take it. You're SpongeBob and I'm Patrick. Ding, ding, ding. If you had to pause on that one, you clearly haven't been watching SpongeBob. You haven't seen the latest. Well, I think most people know what SpongeBob looks like. And I think that clearly I would be SpongeBob.

And by process of elimination, you would be Patrick. That's true. So with that, we're not going to be talking about SpongeBob today because I think SpongeBob's pretty clean, except for any crabby paddy recipes you may have stolen. I think we're good, though. We're talking today about Corey Richens, who,

looked more like an inmate this week. She did not have her street clothes on. She was sentenced. That's a really overwhelming sentencing. Did a full recap. I'm glad you're taking it away tonight because we have questions. We have questions about Corey and her statement in court. And I see you looking over your notes.

You've got some graphs happening. No, there's no graphs. Just notes. Well. Gras would be interesting, but. Yeah. But it's not every day that you see a convicted murderer give a statement at their sentencing. They often do.

They don't always. And she gave a 38-minute one. So I am curious, as is everybody else, your take. Well, you said a convicted murderer, which technically is true, but I think if you ask Corey, she would not tell you that she's a convicted murderer. So I think that was one of the interesting elements of her statement. As a matter of fact. Or she is a, yeah, okay, yeah, fair.

As a matter of fact, I'm going to read one of the more interesting statements she made. This was towards the very end of her. statement, sentencing statement. She said, quote, I wish this nightmare would go away and we could have our family back. But I think about how much I wish I could be with you, that this nightmare would go away and we could have our family back. So you might say, no big deal, right? But let's no, I noted that one. I actually said I believe her and she said that. But let's, let's unpack that statement. I wish, I wish, right? That shows fantasy.

Nightmare is a nightmare is a dream. It's a dream gone wrong, but it's dream gone bad, but it's still a dream, right? She's acknowledging, she's acknowledging, I think, to a large degree that she exists in this fantasy. Of which I think was true of her whole statement. Here's something else she said. She talked about the charge. of murder and it charges of murder and attempted murder. She said she still can't say these words.

She still, she can't say those words. I can't believe this is real. It makes me sick. I'm still in shock and disbelief. So murder, an attempted murder, four years later, and it's still hard for me to say those words out loud. They get caught in my throat. I turn my stomach and I try to avoid them as much as possible

because it makes me physically sick to think about. But still to this day I can't believe this is real sometimes. That this is our life, that this is my life. Convicted of taking one of the people out of my life and filled it the most. Right? That's related to this idea, this wish that this doesn't exist, this wish that this never happened. It's the same thing. She's saying the same thing, that she's created this fantasy that she didn't commit this crime. And that because of that, she's, there's a sense in which there's some disbelief on her end that she's there, that she's experiencing this, right? Here's what, here's another thing she said.

Eventually, she keeps talking about going home. Yeah. Right? Eventually she's going to go home. She's going to prove everyone wrong and go home, right? Because she's appealing this. Quote, our justice system will get this right. Although this courtroom can't seem to.

Our justice system. Say that again. She said, she said this. She said, quote, our justice system will get this right. meaning she thinks she'll go home, although this courtroom can't seem to. So somehow this courtroom is not part of the justice system. Or it's a, it's a corrupt part of the justice system, right?

Or it's a part of the justice system that can't get it right? Right? So if you just listen to her, or if she never mounted a defense by the way, but apparently she thinks if she did, that she would have shown quite clear, that she wasn't guilty. Yeah. So I think I want to start with,

I want to start with those observations because I think what frames this whole debate, if you remember, if you remember the show we did during the trial, the first show we did with where I talked about the Three Wise Monkeys. Oh, yeah. Right, the idea of see no evil, hear no evil,

speak no evil, the idea that if you somehow don't listen to the truth, don't see the truth, don't hear the truth, that you're not accountable for the truth. Yeah. That you're in denial. That theme reappears here. And it shows up in these ways.

Continuing. If you talk about murder or attempted murder, as she says, it makes her sick. She can't believe that this is real, right? She sees this whole thing as a nightmare, which in some sense implies that it's not real, that this is a wish,

this is a dream, this is a fiction, that she's living through. And when the courts get it right, right when when justice comes to her side finally and rescues her then she'll go home you know even Josh Grossman was very much a fantasy you know when you know she very a lot of their relationship was actually through text and one day we can live in the midway mansion together and we can raise kids together never came to fruition there was never actually a relationship when they were

together. It was very much a fantasy. Yeah. And it's it's so true. Not only in her situation, but of criminals in general, that they create these fantasy worlds. And then they live in them and then they're incapable of escaping them. So again, the three wise monkeys. So you see that here. Here's another example or something. Here's another quote. She said, it's an absolute lie that I took your dad from you. Right. Your dad was in lots of pain.

And as much as you've been influenced into thinking that dad was murdered, that I took your dad from you. That is completely wrong in an absolute lie. And the thought of that is still as absurd today as it was four years ago. And just because someone may not be perfect, that's a far reach for them to be capable of murder to kill someone. our or someone your dad was in physical pain

a lot of physical pain and just because some people didn't know or didn't want to see certain things doesn't mean they weren't happening or they weren't true he would have never left us intentionally and I would have never taken him from you so she doesn't really address

what happened. There's a moment where she says, quote, I can't give an explanation that I don't know. Wait, I can't give an explanation that I don't know. The closest she gets to actually, so it seems like when you're addressing the court, and her children kind of implied this, that they want to know, they want an explanation, right? they want an admission of guilt. They want to know what happened. And she says, she addresses that by saying, quote, I can't give an explanation that I don't know. And then she starts talking about growing up without a father.

But the one thing I can't give you boys are the answers that you want the most. I can't give you something that I don't have. An explanation that I just don't know. I've never lost his son. I've never lost one of my brothers, a nephew, or a best friend. I did grow up with a single mother, and I have lost my father.

I do know what it's like to wonder. What if dad could have watched me graduate college? Walk me down the aisle. Be there for the birth of one of you boys. If only dad were here, I do know what that's like. A time of pain that that brings. The sadness and the anger, I would never wish that upon anyone. This part was interesting.

I actually said this in the recap. We need Dr. John right now. This is the Dr. John question. Okay, keep going. Keep going. She brought up not having a father. Well, this is what I noted. She said, I can relate to you, boys.

I too grew up without a father. And what did I say? You remember you were there? I was like, oh, this is a Dr. John question. Like, I want to know if there's something psychological there, you know, because she's convicted of taking their father away from them. So are you suggesting that she murdered her husband so that her kids wouldn't grow up with a father as she did not grow up with a father?

I don't think she's thinking that, but I do think there's something to, because she didn't have a father, it was going to be okay for them to not have a father and it makes her more comfortable. Well, I think she's trying to, I mean, so let's step back a little bit. And I'm not a psychologist. That was really said poorly. Not comfortable. But yeah, talk to me. You're the expert here. Well, let's step back.

I think to understand this. More broadly, we have to step back and look at the whole speech. Okay. Something I don't talk about a lot is what happens after we finish recording. Because covering these cases, you don't just turn it off. There are nights where my body is exhausted. I'm ready for bed, but my brain is still going, replaying everything. I've always struggled with sleep.

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and use code true crime for up to 30% off your first order. I've linked it below. The QR code is on the screen. And honestly, if anything, maybe this is just a reminder, even a few minutes at night to slow down, get rid of those screens. It can make more of a difference than you know. What's interesting about this speech, so I think there's a couple of things. Number one, clearly she makes it clear she's giving this talk to her children. So she's trying, there's some element of persuasion here because her children make pretty horrendous statements about her. They do. Horrendous. Right. And so part of this is, trying to persuade her kids that she's not this monster that people are creating you know making her

out to be yeah and i think she does picture them by the way googling one day and finding this statement uh you know and they talked a lot about in the sentencing the mail that she was writing them being returned so i think she also thinking this is my last moment you know well she actually makes a plea yeah to she makes a plea to the family you know to the family to give them the letters yeah so this is her moment to be able to talk to her kids. Right. And she says that.

The peculiar part of this speech, though, what's strange about this speech is it's sort of like, so if you look at each individual statement she's making, for example, always persevere. Like she's trying to provide these like cliched life lessons. It's like the self-help gibberish, right? So it's like walking through Hobby Lobby, or that was what something said. Yeah. She's, you know, she's saying things like always persevere, never quit. Don't set up for good.

Go for great. Always exceed expectations. Stick together. Love each other. Like I could go on. Never give up on your fight. Never give up on truth and justice. Right. Like, which when you, I guess if you break down these little nuggets of wisdom, if we can call them that, I mean, it's it's like she, she apparently like went to a Tony Robbins seminar over the weekend or something that came back with this.

But, you know, if you look at those statements individually, you know, there's some truth to them, right? They have some degree of some element of wisdom. There's a reason why Tony Robbins was saved that at their seminars. They're inspirational. Yeah. There's a reason why people forward them in emails. They're inspiring. Yes. Persevere.

You lose 100% of the shots you don't take. Right. Right. Right. Exactly. It's that kind of a talk. Yes. Right.

Which if you take, if she had just focused on a few of those and kind of went into some depth, maybe that would have been interesting, right? But she strings together so many of these cliches, so much of this self-help gibberish, that it all becomes, at some point, it all becomes meaningless. Right. And so it has the, to me, it kind of has this sense of being just really trite and really kind of over-the-top silly because she's saying everything and nothing at the same time. There's so much of it, it kind of trounds it out. Yeah.

And she's trying to convey this wisdom to her kids. But it's just so, as I said, it's because there's so much of this. And again, that's not to say that parts of that aren't true, but there's so much of it that it just loses all meaning, right? It's almost like, it's almost like if you hired like the absolute, like think of the person you just like the most on this planet or like somebody that feel like has no wisdom whatsoever and you hired them to give a commencement speech right like graduations upon us right think about if if kori richmond was giving like a commencement speech

for her high school this is what it would sound like or junior high or junior high um and so i think that's interesting in a in a way i don't quite i don't i guess she's trying to be play the role of the wise mother offering life advice to her kids because she's never going to see them. I think so. That's where I had a little bit of understanding. I'm like, hey, they're going to Google one day. They're going to find this.

This is her moment, right? But here's the, here's where this breaks down. Here's where this collapses. You have this tremendous disparity between what she's saying and what she did. You have this disparity between. what she's saying and who she is. Right? Like you can't,

if you're going to give a speech about, I guess she did persevere, right? I'll give her that. She got her MBA behind bars. Well, but, well, I wasn't thinking of that. I was thinking about persevering in the sense that she was going to find, she was hell bent on getting fentanyl. And she was,

and she was going to, she was going to, one way or the other, she was going to find a way to get that poison sandwich. in front of them. I didn't understand where you're going. I'm just thinking of Corey now. You know, she's in behind bars and she's still persevering. Well, no, you got to give her to her.

She never quit until Eric was murdered. Like, you got to say that. That was the whole point of the sentence. But think about the... She failed on Valentine's Day and then she kept persevered. She doesn't give up. Right. But think about the, right.

Think about the absurdity of that. You lose 100% of the shots. You don't take. Sorry. How many poison sandwiches does it take? Yeah, we don't know, actually. We just know of one. when she was convicted of on Valentine's Day.

Yeah, right. There could have been many more that never made it into the lunch pail. And then when it worked, she was put behind bars and she's like, I'm going to keep going to get my MBA. That's where I was. Sorry, go ahead. No. I'm, well, okay, I'm not going to address the NBA thing.

That's more about, I guess, I guess that's more of like make lemonade out of lemon sort of thing. What was she going to do? People's taxes from prison? Right, I know. Yeah, so she made lemonade. She made lemonade. What's she going to give it? Is she going to give investment advice from prison?

I don't know. Anyway. So you know, John, I don't think you know this. She did make a fake gay dating site for the lead investigator. Yeah, we learned that little tidbit. She made a fake dating site for the lead investigator, a gay dating site. I don't think he's gay, but I think she was like, I'm going to mess with this detective. So do you put that in the always persevering?

column? I put that in you put that in the never give up never give up on your fight like where did that well you're the psychologist you tell us well I'm I'm just trying to point out the disparity

between this idea of never giving up on goals that are positive and pro-social and never giving up on murdering your husband right no I was doing the pro-social ones you were doing the no no but I'm pointing out the juxtaposition.

I know. The absurdity of saying you're one thing and you're not. Well, that's what I struggled with throughout the entire sentencing. I kept saying there is no Venn diagram here. It's either she's a monster or she's a saint. But there was like there was no like, and I realize that people are complicated, but like you think some. Well, she made that argument too.

She kept saying I'm not perfect. I made she makes that she every argument. If you, you know, if you had, if she, I don't know, maybe she was watching like an Oprah Fest weekend or something too. But I mean, this, she hits on every one of these. Like no, don't, you know, hey kids, no secrets. And then she's harboring all these secrets. Thank you.

I know. I know. She's like, she says. The affair. She brings up the affair. Don't cheat on your husband or wife, you know. Yeah. Don't cheat on your spouse.

she says right she says our their love is a family never failed well obviously it did fail she murdered her husband like if you want a family to fall apart go murder your spouse well how about this too she does admit to the boys that she fell in love with someone else right and had an affair so then so that alone she's admitting yeah i'm guilty of that but our love never failed yesterday Right, exactly. Just right there. Even if you try to claim you didn't murder him, it did. And you're not acknowledging that.

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or even a forensic capacity, and the person is saying one thing, but doing another, that's incongruent. So if the person's talking about, for example, let's say the person's talking about, how sad they are that they lost their spouse and they're there to grieve, right? They're saying how much they're grieving. And yet they're not experiencing any sadness. They're not showing any sadness. That's incongruent.

Right. Or if they're, let's say that they're talking about sadness, but they're laughing. That might be anxiety. I don't say that could. It could be anxiety, but it's, it's also, it's also incongruent, right? It's showing that they're not, they lack a certain amount of, self-awareness. They lack some capacity for self-reflection to see their behavior, to see that what they're, does what they're saying match to what they're doing, right? That's,

psychologists would see that as being integration. It's the whole actions speak louder than words. My mama taught me that. Did Corey mention that to her boys? That's another one too. I bet your mama never gave a speech like this. She told me to remember who I was. Remember who you are. Did she tell you, did she tell the family to stick together? No, she told me the Holy Ghost went to bed at midnight. Be home. No.

But. Wait, the Holy Ghost had a curfew? According to my mama. Okay. Yeah. Okay. No, but no, I actually don't think she'd ever told me that. But somebody else's mother told me that, and I always thought it was funny. But my point is, actually speak loud in the words, did she say that to her son?

I didn't write that on my notes, by the way, the action speed louder than words. But, yeah, it's a good point. The point is that there's incongruence here, right? The incongruence shows that this is someone who's not only living in denial, not only does she have her, like the monkey, one of the, you know, the see no evil. Not only does she have her hands over her eyes and her ears in her mouth, but she's incapable of seeing that. She's living in this fiction.

She's living in this fantasy world that she's created. And yet she's acting like she's not. Yeah. Here's something else you said. She's telling her boys this. I did not abandon you. I will never, ever leave you boys. Well, then why did you commit murder?

Well, she's saying she didn't commit murder. No, I'm kind of pushing. I'm like, I agree with you. Right. No, I'm just, yeah, I'm obviously presuming that the jury got this right. Yeah, I presume it too. After looking at the evidence, right? Correct. Her defense attorney has made it clear they don't.

Right. But it's interesting. But yeah, no, you're right. You're assuming right. And so you're seeing this in her now. Yeah, exactly. And I mean, and there's more, like she kept saying, one of the things she kept saying during her speech was, I'm sure you remember this refrain. She kept saying, be like your dad, right?

She'd give a little, she'd give a little tidbit of wisdom. Like, you know, never give up. Be like your dad. Right. Like, always love your brothers. Be like your dad. Help, what others are in need. Serve your community.

Be like your dad. Never stop learning. through education, through people, through travel, culture, through business and friends, from your success and achievements, from your mistakes and failures, be like your dad.

Love the outdoors. Find your peace, your therapy, your heart and soul. Out to somewhere. where it's calm, feel the spirits of those that you love and miss the most. Be like your dad. But again, like the, I mean, I don't mean this to be negative, but like the irony.

The, like, be like your dad who I murdered, cheated on, disrespected, lied to, right? Like, shocking. And then she also blamed them, though, too, for things. she'd be like, yeah, I cheated him. But, you know, he cheated too. But be like him. So what is it? You know?

Right. It's the contradictions. I think that's what. I noticed those things too. I'm like, what is it? Are you taking responsibility or are you victim blaming? Are you then going to shame and blame the victim and then tell your kids to be just like him, even though you're saying that he did A, B, C, and D?

It was very confusing. I agree. Right. It was a bun, of contradictions through and through. Yes. If you give that commencement speech, you probably want to give it in a way that's consistent

and congruent and integrated. And hopefully, if you're lucky, it's consistent with who you are and what you believe. Yes. And what you've done, your actions. And she's incapable of doing that. So I think that was the most interesting component of this speech was just how,

disconnected from reality it was, how much she's immersed in this fantasy world that she can't exit and how she's throwing out all these little life lesson cliches that she thinks apply to her and that she thinks she can impart to her kids this wisdom she can impart to her kids. But she can't because she has no moral authority. She has no capacity to impart this wisdom because it's not who she is. Yeah, exactly. Whether she wants to argue this conviction or not, she's simply showing that she's not anything she's saying. Right, exactly.

What she did, I mean, I guess, I guess from her perspective, like in fairness to her, I guess from her perspective, she didn't commit the murder. So like she clearly, she clearly is implying that she says, your dad, talking to her kids again, your dad wasn't, quote, your dad was in lots of of pain, implying obviously that he took his own life. That's her theory here. And by the way, that's apparently that's the theory of her brother, who I know you wanted to talk about briefly. Oh, I just wanted your opinion on her tears straight. Oh, yeah.

I think I actually thought her brother's speech was really sweet. But going back to what you just said, give her, let's, let's say from Corey's mindset talking to her boys. She didn't do it. So let's give her the floor for a second. Okay, I don't believe it. I believe the jury got it right. So, but even then nothing's consistent. That's what I guess I'm trying to push for is even if we go with her fantasy that she's innocent, still nothing makes sense in this. It's still all a contradiction, blaming and shaming their father and then saying be like him. Right. And then saying, you know, our love never failed in the family.

When you cheated on them, I got, you know what? Right, right. It's still, even if you're like, okay, let's give Corey her fantasy for just a second. Let's give Corey her 38-minute fantasy and she's talking to her boys. Even then it's a contradiction. Right. There's the infidelity. There's the disrespect.

There's, right, there's all these elements that I agree that are still contradictory in terms of, If you want to give the Tony Robbins speech, you should, right, you should probably be a little more integrated. Correct. Or a little more consistent with your speech should be consistent with your values at the very least. Right. And if you're getting an MBA behind bars, hold off and setting up the fake dating websites for the lead detective. What I mean? I just like, I mean, I don't know, you know.

What was the purpose of that? I think to smear him, you know. She forgets that, you know, you can like. To smear him so that he would be less effective, to smear him so that he would stop investigating? I think to smear him so he lost credibility or less credibility, yeah. Well, that's what I speculate. We didn't really get into it.

Yeah. You know, I'd love to know. They threw that one out, you know. Yes, I wanted to talk about her brother statement. I also still want to talk about we skipped right over it, a little teaser, about the whole like, I don't have a dad. So you guys don't have a dad either. I know I can relate to you guys. Can we talk about that first?

Or do you want to talk about? Well, I think, right, again, putting aside the absolute lack of self-awareness that. that she murdered their father and therefore that they don't have a dad because of her. Yeah. Like, let's put that aside for a minute. I think she's trying to normalize it. Yeah.

I think she's trying to say, look, I grew up without a dad. You guys are going to be just fine. Even though the kids, by the way, every one of their speeches talked about how much they missed their father. Right. Like, every one of them said they wish they had their father

back they loved their father they missed him he was he was a salient part of their lives the sentencing memorandum was really sad they mentioned wearing his clothes to school so they could feel close to him in the sentencing memorandum yeah yeah so sad so but i i think she's trying to minimize it i think she's trying to normalize it i think she's she's trying to rationalize it right like it's they're not comparable but she's trying to make them comparable. And again, it's that it's everything we just talked about. It's that inability to see the difference, the incongruence between those two things.

Her father wasn't murdered. Yeah, but he made the choice to leave her. That's the difference. He made a choice to leave Corey. Right. He died in a crash when he was older. But, right, she took their father away. Big difference.

Yeah, so right. So they're not, they're not compatible. And just the fact that, again, in this fantasy world she has, she somehow thinks that because she endured a similar scenario, even though her father was alive for a big chunk of her childhood, right? She can relate to them. She can relate. And somehow they can, they can comparably endure. It's almost like Tanner Horner, who was just convicted to death in the kidnapping and murder of Athena Strand, writing in his apology letter, I know how you guys feel because I can't see my son anymore. No, you don't. You took Athena's life. And this is your consequence. It's sort of like her saying, oh, I can relate to you to because I know what it's like to grow up without a father. No, your father left and was alive.

these children have had to endure the murder of their father by someone that should have protected them. Right, exactly. So you can't, again, just sort of trying to relate to them and not being able to connect or see things from their view still. Right. She, right. It's, again, yeah, she's covering her eyes, covering her ears. She doesn't want to deal with the reality. She doesn't want to deal with the truth of the situation, clearly.

And so, yeah, this is another one of those attempts to somehow normalize the situation or minimize it so that they're equal or comparable and they're clearly not. Yeah. Interesting. She didn't cry during her sons. I'm curious about your opinions on all of her reactions. She did not cry during her son's statements given by. therapist. She was in tears when her brother spoke. So that is what I wanted to talk to you about.

It wasn't as much as what he said. He was kind to her. Talked about memories about her little boys waking him up on Christmas morning. She was, I think the emotions were very real coming from her. What did you think when she cried during that moment? I think the reason she was, she cried is because her brother was the only one during sentencing who believes her narrative. Her brother buys into this fiction. Her brother said that she didn't do it. She knows that. So her brother was the only one during sentencing who was supportive of her.

So I think that because of that, I think there's more of an emotional connection to her brother. I mean, of course, it's her brother. She grew up with him. She was remembering some of these stories he was telling. But I think there's this element of support there that she's not getting anywhere else. Part of her plea during her speech was people are complex. I'm not this monster.

I'm being dehumanized. And there's an element of truth to that. Yeah. You know, it's, of course, it's all, she says this too. It's contextual to some degree, but certainly people were, she's not all bad. I talk about this with criminals I evaluate. You know this, that I'll go to the jail or the prison,

and oftentimes, a big part of my job is to try to connect to these people, try to connect to criminals, try to connect, to try to have empathy for them. otherwise I can't give a reasonably fair evaluation. And I will say you do have empathy for them. You always actually walk in. I say after his evaluation, he says, man, they had a hard life. It works.

Then you write the report and you get a little bit angrier. Right. Well, I start getting some distance. You get some distance. So, yeah, not even try. You find it. So anyway. But there, again, there's an element of, I think there's some accuracy to this notion that

she has been dehumanized to some degree. She has been vilified. Most criminals are, especially for high profile. Exactly. I mean, what she did was horrendous. We're not going to celebrate that, clearly. And also, I think one of the reasons she's been dehumanized is because she's in such denial. Right.

You see it here. She makes it easy. To be dehumanized. She makes it easy to become a target when you're divorced from reality. I actually thought her defense did a fairly good job, and I felt her statement made it worse. I was actually compelled by her defense attorney's statements by saying that we need to humanize the justice system, and there should be redemption, and people can be rehabilitated, you know, and she's complex, and she's more than the worst thing she ever did, even though they said that they didn't believe she did it.

I thought they meant, I thought they like gave, so go ahead, go ahead. Yeah, but let me, so to humanize, to make someone humanized doesn't, to humanize them doesn't mean to acquit. Correct. It just means to see them as more than a absolute total villainous monster. Correct. With fangs and claws, right? I mean. And they brought up, you know, how we need. that the justice system should be about human, you know,

bringing more humanity to the prison system. I could get behind that. I do get behind that. But you're right. When she went up and started talking to me, you're right. It did not do her any favor. So you're right.

She's not helping the situation. Yeah. She makes herself an easy target. by engaging in these contradictions, by getting up there and saying things that are completely incongruent with her behavior. If you want to humanize Corey Wichin, give me a Corey Wichin that's apologetic.

Give me a Corey Wichin that's going to tell the truth. Give me a Corey Wichens right. If she knows she's going to spend the rest of her life in prison, apologize. Show some remorse, right? That's how you humanize someone. Right. You're not going to humanize them by,

that person is not going to find themselves more humanized by blaming their murdered husband for a crime that was, right, that she committed or by spouting all these self-help cliches. Once I contradict the one after the other, you're like, where are you going with this? Yeah. Yeah. Am I in a Tony Robbins seminar? Am I reading a junior high yearbook signature? Am I reading, line of lettering signs and Hobby Lobby? Like, where am I? Take me some. Am I at a commencement speech? Is this an email forward with a sunset?

Give me some direction. Make it make sense. I don't know. I don't know. Help it make it make it make sense, right? I know, right. I mean, it's. Yeah. It's over the top. I mean, I've never seen, I've never quite seen something like this.

What are some of the tons you have written down? Just read them all. You have done, did you write a few of them down? I mean, I've read a lot of them. Oh, you didn't write them down. I thought maybe it's okay. I thought maybe you wrote down the cliches. It's okay.

I wrote down quite a few of them. You know, never give up on your fight, never give up on truth and justice, stick together, love each other, don't settle for good, go for great, always exceed expectations, you know, always persevere, never quit, just be safe and be healthy and be happy. That's all that matters. Life is full of color and shades of gray, stay curious. I mean. Be like your dad, live, laugh, love.

You know, you understand that your love is enough. Our love never failed. We have a crazy, beautiful mess of the family. I don't know. You know, it's... There's a lot happening. There's a lot. There's, yeah.

And as you said here, this is, these are Dr. John's notes. Self-help gibberish. A string of cliches. Yeah. And you said that. Taken together are meaningless. Right. And this idea that this, also this theme of going home was, I just, I don't know.

I mean, this idea that somehow she's going to return home at some point. I mean, I guess when you're behind bars, you want to have hope. And if you have this fantasy that you didn't do it. And I mean, I guess, you know, maybe, I mean, I guess. you know, maybe, I mean, I guess there's a small chance the jury got it wrong. I think the evidence was pretty clear, but maybe, I don't know, maybe, just maybe, maybe she didn't commit this murder and maybe she's clinging to that hope or she's clinging to that hope that she can convince people she didn't, she can persuade people she didn't. I don't know. The justice system will get it right. Yeah.

What were your thoughts on the kids' statements? Well, I think the thing that stood out the most about the kids' statements was their anger, which clearly the kids weren't on board with her. I think part of the reason she gave the speech she did is because she was trying to persuade them. She was trying to change their minds, right? And clearly the kid's statements showed that they were still very angry and they weren't going to be persuaded. So there are, you know this, we've covered many cases where some of the children

believe the murderer who murdered the spouse and is still living. Correct. And so that's that in and of itself is an interesting dynamic, right? There's a high level of denial there. Correct. But there's no denial here. These kids clearly have disowned their mother. And it was interesting that, so it was interesting that she,

when the statements from the children were being read, she wasn't emotional. No, she wasn't. But she, as you point out, she was when her brother spoke. And I think the reason is because her kids have disowned her. The kids didn't buy her. They weren't buying her narrative. And she couldn't control it.

She couldn't control it. And they weren't going to be persuaded. They probably won't be persuaded. And she was angry. In fact, one of, you know, it was interesting. You kept pointing out her facial expressions during the sentencing. Right when Eric's family spoke and others. Yeah.

So there was a moment when Katie was speaking, and Katie said basically she said something to the effect that Eric was very unhappy in the marriage, but he decided to stay for the children. And so by making that decision to stay, the word she used was he decided that he was going to live through hell every day. That's what she said. He decided he was going to live through hell every day for the kids.

That was, wow. And she went on to say that Eric also said that Corey Richens, he believed Corey was, quote, I'm going to get this slightly wrong, maybe, it was, quote, the most evil person he had ever met. Yeah, paraphrasing. Yeah. Yeah. And that's a strong statement. Barry.

It's a very strong statement. And Corey... And she's speaking for her brother from the dead. Right. And if you looked at Corey's response to that, it was... I thought she was going to jump out of her chair. I am not the only one that is afraid. There are three little boys who instead of fearing those who love and adore them,

as Corey would prefer, worried constantly, constantly that Corey might show up one day and take them away. Eric's sons deserve so much better. They are not bargaining chips. They are not cash cows. They are not props for some twisted children's book about grief and loss. And yet that is what they've been reduced to by Corey. To my unending sadness and horror, Eric himself,

understood all too well the danger she posed to his children and to his family. When Eric told me he had changed his estate planning and appointed me as his trustee and personal representative, I begged him to end the marriage and go a separate way. By that point he had already consulted with a divorce attorney and was deeply afraid that he might not be awarded sole custody of his children. He made the heartbreaking decision to stay because he could not accept the risk of what might happen to his sons if Corey had equal custody. He told me he would live his life through hell every single day of his life until his youngest was 18 because he believed Corey was the most evil person he had ever met.

He knew that his sons did not like her. He told me as much many times. He knew that they would prefer to be far away from her, but he also knew that divorce carried significant risks. And he said he could never allow his children to spend half of their time alone with her because he was certain they would be exposed to harm and things no child should ever experience.

He made it clear that in his mind, if Corey were given equal custody, his children would be in the care of someone he believed to be deeply dangerous. She was angry, she was making, you know, she was not, she was not hiding her facial express and she was not hiding her. Anger and disbelief. Right.

She was not hiding the fact that she, well, that she couldn't control what people were saying and that she didn't agree with it because it didn't fit her narrative, of her fantasy, as we just talked about, right? And so her children didn't fit that either. And therefore, it didn't matter. She's arguing in her speech that the children are the most important thing to her by far

and that she's talking to them. And yet when she's listening to their speeches, she's angry. She is. And you know what's interesting is, I even said this, as a mother, if I heard my children saying things, even if I felt weren't true, you know, or my child saying something that wasn't true about me, if I even felt it wasn't true, I would still be crushed hearing my child say such terrible things about me. My heart would be broken as a mother because I love them so much and to hear that they essentially hate me. They don't miss me. They're not even

referring to me as mother they're calling me by my first name i would be devastated you know even if i felt it wasn't true and she she does try to she does try to address that when she says she'll again more cliches right she'll throw out cliche i'm i don't know she didn't exactly say this but something the effect of i'm not i'm not invalidating your emotion I'm not saying your emotions aren't real, right? She does say that. But again, it's not consistent with her behavior and how she's responding to it. Well, she goes on to invalidate their emotions.

Right. Right. Because I mean, if, so the main things that came up with her kids were safety, that none of them felt safe around her, right? she completely disavowed that, they were all angry at her, they were all experiencing grief, and they all saw her as being egotistical and self-serving. Those are the themes from the children's statements. It seems like, I agree with you, it seems like if a parent listens to their child being honest about those types of issues and those types of emotions, seems to me the appropriate

response would be, I'm sorry. Right? The appropriate response to that would be, you know, it would be the truth. I'm sorry, you feel that way. Yeah, like, I'm sorry. Well, even more than that. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I murdered your father.

I was in a bad place. You know, I lost sight of who I was, right? Like, whatever. I felt trapped. Yeah, whatever. No excuse to murder anyone, but I'm just saying, you know, just, yeah. Right, it doesn't change the fact that she murdered him. It's not, it's just, it's, it's an honest response to honest statements from the children.

Yeah. But because she can't cope with that type of honesty, she gets angry. And because she can't control it, she doesn't, she's incapable of expressing real emotion. or authentic emotion in that moment. But when her brother decides to adopt this fiction about, oh, we all know you're innocent, the courts will figure this out, right? Then she's all on board.

Then she's crying. She's in tears. She's, you know, she becomes a blubbering, you know, weepy sibling at that moment. I thought one thing that was interesting about the children's statements was their grief, right? Remember, this is the grief book mom.

This is the mother who tried to teach her kids how to grieve. And they're grieving in these statements. They're saying, we miss our dad. He will never be there for anything. He will not see us grow up. But her grief book is, he's not there, but he is. You can look to the sky. Remember, it was like Sky Daddy.

Right, right. The whole book was saying, you're sad that you're making this goal, but your dad's there. He's there. And now they're actually like really grieving and saying he's not there. And they're grieving without her and they're angry. And I just thought it was kind of interesting, the irony of. Yeah, the book, the book like this, like her speech, the book is pure fantasy.

Yeah. It's her way of trying to cope and minimize and normalize the situation that can't be normalized. Yeah. It's her way of trying to control the narrative and impose her views of grief on her children. and she's trying to tell them in the book, this is how you agree, basically get over it. And if you can't get over it, just imagine that your dad's still around,

even though he's not. I actually do think that's why she wrote the book, by the way. I don't necessarily agree with the prosecution's theory that she wrote it to look good. I mean, there's probably some of that. There probably was. But I actually think she wrote it for herself, for her to, like, minimize for her fantasy.

But I don't know what you think. for what you just said like. But then why would she promote it on? Okay, good point. Why would she promote it on television on Good Morning, Utah or whatever the show is? Fair. Okay, okay. You have a good point.

She's promoting it because she's doing impression management. True. Okay, fair. So W.R says, quote, I can't ever see my dad again. It's not what the grief book says. A.R. says, you took away everything from me and my brothers. Not what the grief book says. No, I'm just making a point, you know, about how you're right, that's her fantasy to minimize it.

And they're saying, no, they're angry. And they should be. This is part of, this is a, anger is a real big part of grief, as you always say. CR says, quote, I am angry. She killed my dad, right? So you've got this, right, you've got this grief, this grief coupled with anger. anger. They all say, right. Right. They all say the same

things. Exactly. And so right, the grief book is really a non-grief book in the sense that it's a book that's attempting to minimize the situation and to create the impression that she's a grieving widow.

Correct. When she's not a grieving widow. Right. Exactly. I thought that it was just fascinating since everybody learned of this case because of the book. The book. Here we are showing the world how children are really grieving, and it's messy, and it's angry, and it's painful, and rightfully so.

That's, by the way, that's, you could, in her speech, you can find, you can find a quote for anything. I know, I know. She says, quote, she says that. She said, they're a crazy, beautiful mess of the family. They were. Clearly, they're not a family now. But, I mean, that, again, that's one of the problems with her speech is that it's, as I said, it's sort of this bundle of cliches.

And you could pull out from that bundle, you can pull out anything you want to prove whatever you want to prove. Prove, right. Mom, I'm really angry. You killed my dad. I know, well, you know. Never quit. Never quit. Love will conquer all.

Right. And I do feel that that was her grief book in many ways. I agree. It was part of this fantasy. Part of this fantasy that she created. One of my favorite poems is the four quartets by T.S. Eliot, which, oddly enough, I read in high school. I had a high school English teacher who taught a course called the Religious Quest. I give a shout out to Dale. His name's Dale Griffith.

I remember Dale Griffith very well because he had such a tremendous impact on my life in terms of my senior year, I find myself reading T.S. Eliot and Dostoevsky and Saul Bello and Shakespeare. I had read Shakespeare before in high school, but not at that level. So he introduced me, Sir in Kirkgard, Surin Kirkgarde, the Danish philosopher, Frederick Nietzsche, the German philosophy. I was reading all this stuff before college, and it had a really profound impact on me.

And I remember in the T.S. Eliot, four quartets, the first quartet is called Bert Norton. And there's a famous quote in there. There's a little bird that comes in and delivers this line. But the line is, and we talked about this quote a lot in the course, by the way, here I am all these years later still remembering it. But the quote is, humankind cannot bear very much reality. And I always think about that quote because it's so simple, right? And yet so much of what I do as a psychologist has to do with that issue, not just criminals, but just humans in general.

And I think one of the takeaways from that quote for me is just it shows how fragile and avoidant human beings can be in terms of trying to discover the truth of their lives or trying to make sense of real. for lack of a better term or, you know, the difficulties of being human. The one thing that Corey Richens doesn't talk about in her speech, she talks about not being perfect and all these cliches, but what she doesn't talk about are human limitations, not perfection, human limitations, and the difficulties of being finite and mortal, the difficulties of really facing up to real existential truths about the human condition.

that is what she fails to do. Yeah. I agree. Well said. And I don't know if I can end with anything better than that. No, it's pretty good. Okay. No.

Any questions? Any questions? No, I just needed to talk this out, really. I mean, sorry, I kind of talked over you a lot, but I just needed to process this with you. You know, it's been interesting. I do feel like it came full circle since this grief book moment. We finally heard from these boys.

We finally heard what grief really is. And we saw that the grief book had no impact on them whatsoever. The grief book was fantasy and it remains fantasy. Grief book was fantasy. It remains fantasy. Yeah, well said. But it did, oddly enough, it did introduce us to this case. that is what got our attention on this particular case because it was so peculiar.

Yeah, and a shout out to my former station who did that interview. Yeah. Yeah. So who knew? Yeah, I believe that justice was served. You know, I try to look at it all thoughtfully, you know, listen to the, the defense, see how the prosecution is managing things, watch her, listen to her. But yeah, I do believe that justice was served.

I hope that behind bars, she makes lemonade at lemons and lives and loves. What does she say? All of that. Persevere. None of that and all of that. Doesn't take herself too seriously. I hope that in prison, I do believe justice was served and that she sticks together and remembers not to settle for good, go for great, exceed expectations.

Be that kind of prisoner. How do you exceed expectations in prison? I guess if you're the model inmate. Yeah. Don't be a model inmate. Be the model model. Be the best. inmate that ever there ever was she's got this whatever that means i believe in her so all right

well thank you for talking this out with me love you and um let's um let's go wind down um without some moscow mules did you say without or without without i'm thinking some camomot tea something mild Camomil, camomil, some wine down tea. Some dream beam. Yeah, that would be good. Yeah, we'll skip the. We'll skip the fentanyl-laced Moscow. The copper mugs.

Yeah, and a hat for us. Yeah, this is SpongeBob and Patrick signing up. I don't look like a starfish, though. Do I? Put your hands like this. If you believe it, if you believe it, you can achieve it. Be a star. You can be anything.

That's true. Be a star. I can be Patrick. You're a star. Darn it, I'm good enough. I'm smart enough. And I can be Patrick. And I can be a sponge.

Bob. If you believe it, you can achieve it, persevere. Never give up on your fight. shoot for the moon, the worst you can do is land in the stars or something? Others will judge incorrectly, but stand for truth. I am Spongeball. Okay. All right. Good night, guys.