Hidden True Crime - False Testimony and A New Jailhouse Lover? | Shanna Gardner Updates with Criminal Psychologist

Episode Date: February 18, 2025

New revelations in the Shanna Gardner case have come out. Join Lauren as she recaps the updates, followed by Dr. John giving his thoughts on what Shanna's behavior may be showing. About Hidden True Crime: Lauren Matthias, a former television reporter, and her husband Dr. John Matthias, a criminal psychologist, started Hidden True Crime in 2020 with their Season, 'Beyond the Veil,' a psychological deep dive into the doomsday murders and prophet. What started as a simple conversation at their dinner table became a captivating podcast. Join the dynamic duo of Dr. John Matthias, a forensic psychologist, and Lauren Matthias, an investigative journalist, as they delve into the psychological facets of unthinkable crimes every week. Their unique perspectives and in-depth analysis offer a fresh take on true crime storytelling. Thank you for your support through sponsorships, subscribing, listening, and becoming a Patreon member at Patreon.com/HiddenTrueCrime Previos Shanna Episodes: https://stream.redcircle.com/episodes/8a929b01-d2c5-449b-97a7-a83a24ddc7f5/stream.mp3 https://stream.redcircle.com/episodes/1ceb0f52-e5d7-41b7-83d2-1c200a983935/stream.mp3 https://stream.redcircle.com/episodes/3ea00d08-3001-47da-ad82-a6c31a0f481d/stream.mp3 Sources: https://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/local/shanna-gardner-accused-having-tattoo-gun-cheeking-medication-during-time-duval-county-jail/PVY2CL7Y4VG3ND2ROSQG6B3ZOQ/ https://www.firstcoastnews.com/article/news/crime/jared-bridegan-murder-shanna-gardner-jail-violations-drugs-theft/77-d839ed7b-5576-42cb-a937-5ad0cfcc96e3 https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2025/02/13/shanna-gardner-accused-in-murder-for-hire-case-stole-from-inmate-had-makeshift-tattoo-device-in-jail-report-says/ https://www.jacksonville.com/picture-gallery/news/crime/2024/02/16/shanna-gardner-and-mario-fernandez-saldana-back-in-court-jared-bridegan-murder/72629660007/ https://sjcitizen.com/woman-charged-killing-st-johns-county-ex-husband-finds-new-lover-cited-theft-prison/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbcsb0w4rQc&t=1s Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Lately, I've been trying to be more intentional about what I wear, intentional about everything, just choosing pieces that feel effortless, still put together, timeless, but also not overthinking it every morning. It's why I keep going back to quince. Their pieces just make getting dressed easier and I feel so classy. I feel elevated. The fits are flattering. The fabric is really high quality. Everything is wearable day to day. I actually got this really, really, beautiful yellow V-neck midi dress from them, and I paired it with some Italian leather sandals. It's one of those outfits that just works. It feels polished but still comfortable. It's exactly what I've been looking for. What surprises me, though, is the quality for the price. Quince

uses premium materials like European linen, organic cotton, but they cut out the middleman. So everything is priced way lower than you'd expect. Refresh. your every day with luxury you can actually use. Head to quince.com slash hidden true crime for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quince, quince, q-u-in-cce.com slash hidden true crime for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash hidden true crime. I'm Lauren Matthias, and this is hidden true crime where we bring you the latest info on true crime and delve into the hidden motives with my co-host, Criminal psychologist, Dr. John Matthias.

And in recent weeks, there has been some big updates in a case we have been following from the very beginning, the Jared Bridigan-Shanna-Gardener case, also known as the Stampin-Up case here at Hidden True Crime, where you can listen to our full case playlist. We call it the Stampin-up case because the founders of the crafting company Stampin-up, well, they are funding the murder trials defense. More on that a little bit later. But if you are unfamiliar with this shocking and heartbreaking saga for a brief background on February 16th, 2022. So exactly three years ago today at the time of this recording, 33-year-old Microsoft executive and a doting father of four, Jared Bridigan, was murdered in Jacksonville, Florida.

It happened on his way home from dropping his 10-year-old twins off with their mother, Shanna Gardner. So Jared had just spent the evening with the twins, his son and daughter, that he shared with his ex-wife, Shanna. The evening was also known as date night to the twins, and they looked forward to this midweek visit with their dad. And sometimes their two younger half-sisters would come along. Jared, you see, had found love again and remarried Kirsten Bright again after his divorce from Shanna. And the twins, after that marriage, became big siblings to half-sisters, London and Bexley. So Jared was driving home on his regular route with two-year-old Bexley in the backseat. After dropping the twins off with their mom and their new stepdad, Mario Fernandez-Feldana,

it was then that Jared noticed a tire in the middle of the road on a dimly lit one-way street. Again, this was his regular route home. So he stopped his car to move the tire. He placed one foot outside of his vehicle and was immediately gunned down as his toddler watched from her car seat and the backseat. The investigation into his murder began immediately and fingers quickly began pointing at Shanna due to their extremely volatile custody battle over the twins, which had continued to last years after their divorce.

Shanna denied any involvement in Jared's desk. She even interviewed with a local news station saying, I would never, ever do this. I have no involvement. I was shocked. I failed at the floor because I was devastated for what I was going to have to tell my kids. Jared died in that street, leaving behind four children and a heartbroken family. They were, I think, in shock. Later in a blog post, Shanna's mother said she was not invited to the funeral.

I asked Shanna about the situation. His family did not invite me or want me there. But the day before a vigil hosted by Jared's widow at Celebration, SHANNA was photographed at the park with her kids by the tabloid Daily Mail. Talk about a violation of privacy because my kids know that they were photographed and they were worried. The tabloid presented the facts in a way that leave room for speculation about Shanna having a role in Jared's death, citing their rocky divorce papers and her absence from the

funeral. Even though we didn't always get along, he was still the father of my kids. So I asked Shanna the question. Did you have anything to do with Jared's murder? No, I did not have anything to do with his murder. Well, nearly a year after the murder, in January of 2023, a man named Henry Tenon was arrested in charge with pulling the trigger and killing Jared Bright again. But police say that Henry was only the hitman.

And it turns out that hitman Henry Tenon was a previous rental tenant of a property owned by Shanna's new husband, Mario Fernandez, that new stepdad to the twins. Henry quickly took a plea deal and gave information on the crime, which police say led to the arrest of Mario two months after Henry's arrest in March of 2023, just a year after Jared's murder. So now we have two arrests, Henry Tenon and Mario. And after Mario's arrest, Shanna uprooted her twins and left the state of Florida, moved across the country to Washington state, and into a large home her wealthy parents purchased. for her. But despite that 2,000-mile move, five months after Mario's arrest in August of

2023, police made a third arrest. Chana was also arrested, accused of being the mastermind along with Mario behind the brutal murder of her ex-husband and father to her two children. Both Shanna and Mario have been behind bars ever since in jail awaiting trial. Well, Chiana's wealthy LDS or Mormon parents from Utah own a a well-known multi-level crafting company called Stampin Up and are now guardians of the twins living in Shiana's Washington House, or at least her mother does, and they are funding for multi-million dollar defense, hiring the famous or infamous, depending on how you look at it, the famous defense attorney Jose Baez to defend their youngest daughter Shiana.

Jose also defended Casey Anthony and Harvey Weinstein. And those aren't the only famous people he has defended. but he's one of the most costly defense attorneys in the country. It has been a wild ride ever since Jose has been at the helm defending Shiana. Mario, now known as Shiana as estranged husband, has his own defense team since Stamping Up isn't going to defend Mario's defense. Jose Baia is likely to point the fingers at Mario to help his client Shiana. So Mario's on his own.

But, well, the last few weeks, as the trial for Shiana and Mario approaches, we have begun to learn even more, beginning with Henry Tenon, the man who admitted to being the hitman and pulling the trigger, that man who was the first one arrested. Earlier this month, Mario's defense attorney filed a motion requesting specific discovery in this case, specific evidence in the murder of Jared. In this motion, the attorney explains that in a recent hearing, Henry Tenon admitted to giving false testimony. So that's shocking that the hitman, the man who took a plea deal, the man who allegedly is the reason why Mario was arrested, now we're hearing that he may have given false testimony.

To understand exactly what they're talking about here in this motion, we need to go back to 2023. That's the year of the arrest. So according to records, on March 15, 2023, that was after. Henry Tenon was arrested and just one day before Mario was arrested. Henry provided a sworn statement to law enforcement implicating Mario and Jared's murder. It was that testimony by Henry Tenon that allegedly led to that arrest of Mario the very next day. Well, now let's fast forward nearly three years later to 2025 to this year to earlier this month on February 4th, 2025. And the state sent Mario's defense a link

that allegedly had additional evidence. And within that link was a transcript of a January 13th, 2025 status hearing. So just a couple of months ago, a transcript from a hearing a couple of months ago. So I am going to read to you that transcript of that hearing so that you're going to understand what was said. It starts with attorney chipperfield. And this is what attorney chipperfield says. quote, good morning, your honor, Alan Chipperfield for Mr. Tenon. Your honor, I think we just need a past date, end quote. Judge, quote, I was just checking in because I hadn't seen Mr. Tenon since last year. I was just making sure everything was okay, end quote.

Attorney Chipperfield. I think he's doing okay. Judge, quote, okay. Henry Tenon now. Henry Tenon, quote, Your Honor, may I say something, end quote. Judge, quote, talk to Mr. Chipperfield first. Tell him what you want to tell me, okay?

End quote. Henry Tenon, quote, I just want to bring to your attention that my testimony, dot, dot, dot, end quote, don't know what that sentence was going to become. Judge, quote, no, no, no, end quote. Tenon, quote, false testimony, end quote. Judge, quote, hold on, end quote. Attorney Chipperfield, quote, Mr. Tenon, we need to talk about that. Henry Tenon, quote, I need another attorney, end quote.

Judge, quote, okay, let me pass it temporarily. Have a conversation with Mr. Chipperfield. And then I'll have a conversation with you, Mr. Tenon. Okay. end quote. According to that transcript, Henry left the courtroom at that point and didn't end up returning. When his attorney came back in, they moved the hearing date to another week until January 22nd and then that was switched to April 14th. So we're between now that hearing and the April 14th hearing. So at this point, we do not know exactly what part of the testimony Henry Tennant is claiming as false. All we got out of that, hearing was quote false testimony end quote and that he needs another attorney so were there other parts of his testimony that didn't include Mario that may be false that Henry Tenon is referring to or is he claiming the what he said about Mario to be false it is essentially a waiting game we we don't

understand what is meant by false testimony and only time will tell but Mario's attorney is requesting the following evidence now as they say they cannot present a proper defense for Mario without one. Any information or correspondence, conversations, summaries notes, sidebar conversations, emails with Mr. Tenon's counsel, the court's judicial assistant, the clerk's office, and or the court that provides information as to why Mr. Tenon was not brought back out to the courtroom after the court temporarily passed his case to allow him to speak with counsel this again on January 13th of this year, 2025. Number two, any information correspondence conversation, summaries, notes, sidebar conversations,

emails with Mr. Tenants' counsel, the court's judicial assistant, the clerk's office, and or the court that provides information as to why Mr. Tenant's court date was reset from January 22nd, 2025 to April 14th, 2025. Number three, any in all actions taken by the state attorney's office to inquire as to what testimony Mr. Tenant has given. that is, quote, fault testimony, and quote. Additionally, all notes, logs and records of any meetings between the state's attorney's office and any law enforcement agency regarding information directly or indirectly provided as to the statements made by Mr. Tenant in court on January 13th, 2025. This request includes any and all information regarding the context of the false testimony,

including Mr. Tenon's current state of mind and participation as a state witness. Number four, seeking information regarding what steps the state has taken to void his plea agreement or in the alternative, learn why his plea agreement should not be rescinded. In this alternative, we are seeking any correspondence, conversation, summaries, or any information regarding statements the state has made to the defense or Mr. Tenon regarding how the state will proceed if Mr. Tenon does not rescind or recant his statements made in court on January. January 13th, 2025. We do know that the judge has ordered Mario's jail calls to be released to the defense. I love jailhouse calls. I'll be the first to admit it. And we know that the judge now has ordered Mario's jailhouse calls to be released to the defense. So we might find out more from those jailhouse calls very soon. If they are released, hidden to crime will be on it, bringing them to you. And if this information about an alleged false testimony isn't a bombshell enough, because it definitely has me on pins and needles, it seems that so much of this case is weighing on Henry the hitman's testimony.

But now let's move on to this month. We are now hearing about Shanna, the stamping up heiress and what she's been up to while behind bars while in jail. And let's just say she has not been staying out of trouble since her arrest. The first incident was nearly a year ago on April 29, 24, when there was a shakedown of her cell. While the jail staff was searching her cell, which is a normal procedure in jail, they check for contraband or anything that the inmates shouldn't have. And that's what they were doing with Shanna Garner. There was a shakedown of her cell. And while jail staff was searching her cell, they found three things to note.

Number one, a cup of cheeked medication, meaning that she wasn't taking the medication prescribed to her. I don't know what that is, but she was saving it. I picture a chipmunk, cheeking the medication. Number two, they also found an extra mattress and number three, a fishing line. So the extra mattress and then the fishing line, this is what inmates often used to pass things from cell to sell that they shouldn't have. and these two things were found under her bunk bed. A month and a half later in mid-June, First Coast News, the local news station in Florida,

states, quote, a discipline report states a violation of possession of any other contraband and introduction of any other contraband, end quote, though no plea finding or narrative is provided within this report. Two days later, just two days, two days, two days. The Stampin-up heiress, Shanna Gardner, was busted for stealing. This time, there were multiple things listed on the Discipline Report, including,

number one, theft of property exceeding $50 in value. Number two, lying to staff members or others in official capacity or falsifying records. Number three, attempt to manipulate staff. Number four, disorderly conduct. Number five, I think number five, I've lost count. There's so many here. We've got bullet points. Number five, disobeying verbal or written order.

Apparently, she had stolen items from another inmate, and they were found under her bunk bed. That's bold. Think about it. Stealing from another. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet,

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Just use code hidden true crime to save 20% off. Plus, if you subscribe, you'll get an additional 20% off. Discover your true age today. After getting caught, she had, quote, nothing to say, and quote, and, quote, only questions about the waiver, end quote. So, and then last month, let's go to last month now. There were two reports from the same day when there was another shakedown of Shanna Gardner's cell.

So at this point I'm thinking, okay, she's learning lessons, right? But here we go. Another shakedown. Number one, her armband, which seems to be her identification, was not on her and was on her bunk bed. Number two, corrections officers fanned what they believe to be a makeshift tattoo gun in her cell. This was made by a pencil with a sharp object tied to the eraser. and with thread. It probably won't come as any shock that Shanna didn't exactly take responsibility for what was found in herself. Instead, she blamed others saying that this was a set-up.

She does seem to have a history or a thing for blaming others, but Shana says she was set up and framed. Shana's punishment for what was found in her cell losing her commissary privileges. That's a big deal behind bars. Aside from the disciplinary infractions, apparently Shiana is also now involved, with a new lover in jail. Mario really is on the outs. A estranged husband, he definitely is, according to this information. The St. John's citizen just released an article. And in this article, they talk about a letter that Shanna sent her sister's sage last April.

And from jail, this letter states, quote, I see so much good in him, end quote, followed by, quote, he is a damaged soul. You know me and my broken things, end quote. According to the citizen, Shanna was referring to her new jail lover by his preferred pronouns indicating that her alleged lover may not have been born a male,

which would make it make a bit more sense for me if they are behind bars together. As the article claims, because males and females are kept separated from each other behind bars. So that helps to sort of clarify why they might behind bars together. Chana continued in this letter talking about this person saying,

quote, I could be very good for him, but it's like a Mario situation. He would have to be willing to work hard to heal himself, not want me to fix him, end quote. In another letter to a friend, Shanna wrote, quote, marriage is really hard, like really hard. I should know with two failed marriages, end quote. Again, sounds like Mario's death. definitely on the outs now that he's considered a failed marriage. Dr. John has talked a lot about Shanna and her past relationships in our previous episodes, and I'm going to link those in the description of this podcast episode.

We even dig deep into Jared Brightigan and Shanna Gardner's marriage and relationship, and we have all of their divorce records on patreon.com slash hidden true crime. There's a lot. But I'm going to ask John. I'm going to pull them on here really quickly to ask him just a few more questions as it pertains to this case and these recent updates because I have questions and we need some Dr. John. Thank you for joining me, Dr. John Matthias, for those that are new to hidden true crime. He's also my husband.

But I have some questions for a criminal psychologist. So thank you for being here. Shannon Gardner is getting into trouble again and again and again. Right. Yeah. What's that about? Why isn't she learning her lesson? One of the things that a forensic psychologist would look at is whether behavior is invariant,

meaning we want to know whether something's situational or whether it's more of a pervasive a pattern of behavior. So in other words, when crimes are committed, you know, the situation or the context will have an influence on the particular crime, but so will personality. And so one of the tasks of a forensic psychologist is try to sort out how much of the situation is a causal factor and how much is the personality. And so if it's more personality than the risks for reoffence are going to be higher because you don't change personality.

So you can change the situation. So let's say that a criminal is involved in an unusual situation. Let's say that a group of peers, maybe like an 18-year-old that's jumped into a gang is with peers that are threatening to harm him if he doesn't participate in a crime, right? Then he does. So you could argue that if that person is not in the gang and is not being influenced by his peers, that he may not commit that crime. So if you take away that environment

and you take away the peers, you don't get a crime. However, if that person that's jumped in the gang happens to have a long history of criminality and has antisocial personality traits or qualities or might even be a psychopath, that person is more apt

to not only want to join the gang, but to lead the gang and to kind of lead the crew in committing crimes, right? Because it's more of a personality issue. So in the one case, we would say risk might be low if we can change the situation, but it would be high in the second case because personality doesn't change. It's invariant.

So if you want to look at a criminal's risk for recidivism or if you want to understand who they are, you really have to kind of tease out the difference between the situation and personality. And so if you have somebody like Shanna Gardner, who's the same, essentially displaying these oppositional traits, both in prison and outside of prison, then you start considering the fact that there's something going on with their personality. There's something deeper. So I think part of this is because ultimately somebody like Shanna Gardner, who comes from, who's got the best defense attorneys possible.

Yes. She's got everything going for her. This is someone who you'd expect, who if she wants to get acquitted, that she should be completely straight-laced in prison. She should be the model prisoner. She should walk into court and say, this isn't me, right? For the jury, she should want to present this image of herself as pristine. We've even heard that Lori Vallow's a model prisoner.

You know, we've heard that she's well-behaved. Right. If Lori Vallow can do it, you'd think she had a gardener with prison. be able to, as you point out. But she can't. She can't, right? And so that's the fascinating thing here is that you, if this is someone with a lot of character, broadly defined, let's say, you know, a strong moral compass,

they're going to be behaving well in prison. She's going to want to come across as the model prisoner so that when she gets in front of a jury, her defense team can say, look, She's got this clean, this pristine record in jail. She's done nothing wrong. Like our client is, you know, a respectable citizen, right? Like she would never commit a crime like this.

She had nothing to do with this. But now they have this complication where, I mean, I'm not sure the prosecution is going to be able to bring this in. Presumably they might. But assuming the prosecution can get some of this behavior in, And now you're starting to, you know, you're painted a picture of someone here who is, at the very least, oppositional. You know, worst case, this is someone who's displaying a lot of antisocial traits that she's engaging in this pattern of rule breaking and violating norms and, right, pushing the limits, manipulation. And this is in prison, right?

So you might argue that some of it is the situation that prison tends to, you know, criminals go to prison. Many criminals go to prison to become better criminals. So, right, like the best criminal school on the planet's prison. Right. And of course, she's not in prison. Right. She's not even in prison yet. She's in jail and she hasn't even been convicted of a crime yet.

Right. Which is even more interesting because this is the time, as you point out, that she should be really extra. well behaved, right? Like, I don't know. And so many, many of the qualities we talked about early on, we, we covered this case well over a year ago. You know, I have some of the, these are some of the qualities that some of her mission companions talked about when she was young.

Oh, yeah, let's hear. That's right. These are, these are her, this is straight from her mission companions. We talked to multiple mission companions. So this is, this is going back to when she was like, what, 19, 20? And to clarify LDS mission companion. meaning that Shannon Gardner served a LDS or Mormon mission. I think she has since left the church.

She did that after her divorce from Jared Brightigan, but she did serve a mission in Spain. Okay, yeah. So these are some of the qualities that they attributed to her. And this is, she's much older now, right? But I'm not sure much has changed. And so this is an argument for something that has to do with personality. Yeah.

So when she was 21, 22 mission companion, a.k.a. roommate taught about God with each other. So one of her mission companions, just to kind of frame all this, one of her mission companions said that her entire mission was what they called the Shanna Show, right? So like it was all her. She was on stage. She was the center of attention. It was the Shanna show. And I thought that was fascinating because that in and of itself speaks volumes about how attention seeking she is and how much she wants the limelight.

arguably you could say that there's potentially some narcissistic traits there or qualities. Again, I'm not diagnosing here. I don't know if she would qualify for that diagnosis, but these are adjectives that they used, kooky, nutty, off, mentally ill, unstable, moody, attention seeking, controlling, entitled, spoiled, manipulative, obsessive, and a compulsive liar. One of her companions told us that she creates her own reality all the time, that she's a compulsive liar.

So if you look at those qualities going back to when she was young, and you look at those, and you take that, you take that list and you apply it now, or you look to apply it now to what's going on in jail. It's interesting that I think you can see some of those same qualities in play in jail. And all of that would speak strong. to the possibility that we're looking at something that's deeper that has to do with her personality and maybe a personality disorder.

Interesting. She allegedly has a love interest now. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers, spammers, even stalkers. It's why you get endless robocalls and why ads seem to follow you everywhere. That's where ORA comes in. ORA actively removes your data from broker sites and keeps it off.

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Protect yourself now atora.com slash remove. In jail, this is interesting to me because, well, relationships in jail always interest me, whether that's a pen pal, whether that's some of the visits. And, you know, she is married to Mario, who's been arrested. and charged in the same murder she's been charged with, an estranged husband. So I think it's interesting that she's already gotten herself in another relationship. I have questions about this. I also find it unique and interesting because it sounds like they are in jail together.

It is a male, but it sounds like according to the citizen that this man, they referred to Shana as referring to his pronouns correctly, meaning this might be why they're in jail together, that perhaps this man was born a female, and so there's some pronoun change. That is an interesting dynamic to me that they would be in jail together. Is this someone that always has to be in a relationship? What does that mean to have this relationship behind bars? Well, I heard your quote about that she perceived this person to be a project. And arguably, you could say the same thing with Jared.

You know, one of our, several of the mission companions talked about her relationship with Jared. One of them said that she saw, she's like, whoa, this is from one of the, she saw, quote, she saw Jared as a pushover that she could run all over. right she so i mean i think the theme here is that she needs to be in control that she's not going to express any type there's they're not going to be any vulnerability in a relationship in other words she's in control when she talks about a project what she's saying is that she wants to kind of mold the person in such a way that the person can't hurt her or can't control her right that the the project

is taking someone who's, in her mind's eye, taking someone who's potentially vulnerable and kind of molding them in her image. So that she's in charge and that she can't get hurt and the part right. It's it's about this issue of control. Well, she states that. to, it was either her sister or her friend.

I've gotten the letters mixed up, but you know me, like I love the damage, the broken. Right. And it's interesting. You refer to Jared as a project, but she referred to Mario as a project. So, you know, like Mario.

So you're saying that's, you know me, I like someone that's broken. What she's actually saying is, you know me, I like a project. I like to be in control and I don't like to be the vulnerable one in a relationship. Is that what you're saying? The message she's sending is, I'm not broken.

I'm not damaged, but these people are. So I'm going to go to work repairing them. It's a type of projection. I'm going to go to work, you know, repairing their damage so that I don't have to look at my own damage. Has losing weight and getting healthier been on your mind lately? Have you heard about groundbreaking GLP-1 treatments like Ozympic and WeGO with Effecti? Getting access to these powerful medications has never been easier or more. affordable. Starting a new medication is always a bit scary when you aren't sure what to expect.

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Get started today. You know, it might be a project. It also might be a challenge, right? Because we also learned that Jared was not interested in her. We've learned this from several people, including... missionary companions, she wrote the mission mother after she returned home from her mission in Spain. She wrote and she kept in touch with the mission president and the mission mothers, they refer to this woman and her companions and stated she had the worst date ever.

This guy essentially was not into her at all. And then that ends up being Jared, who then she aggressively pursued. We've heard this from several sources. Could this also be someone that's broken, also a challenge? You know, I'm, I'm, watch me, you know, here I go. Yeah, there's, there's a, again, I think that speaks to control. There's sort of a manipulative element here that she's, she's going to take these people. I think she sees some of these, she sees these relationships as puppets.

You know, they're marionettes, that she's going to. going to control and she's going to pull the levers and the strings. And yeah, and people don't reject her. So, but I don't think that's the case here. Maybe, you know, the thing about this jail relationship that's interesting. And I mean, I don't know how much of a relationship you can have in jail, by the way, but depends probably on where she's, you know, the location of the jail. but there's something, there's something potentially very oppositional about that. You know, if, as you point out, if there, if there's pronouns involved here, you know, that that's antithetical to anything that her family would condone.

That's, right, that's antithetical to her family is extremely Mormon, right? They're very, very immersed in the Mormon church. And even if she's not, like, she knows that they are. They're very conservative, right. Very conservative. And so by getting in a relationship with someone who may or not be transgender, you know, she's sending a message to her family. She's lashing out.

She's rebelling here. And that's one of her qualities, right? She did that with Mario. Yeah. You know, Mario was certainly someone that her family had a very, difficult time with Mario initially. Well, she left the LDS church after her divorce from Jared. She then got multiple tattoos, which these things might seem very normal to people,

but they are not normal to her very conservative LDS family from a small town who owns a crafting company. This is all a bit of rebellion, right? So dating someone that maybe transgender and a gender reassignment surgery could also, Is that what you're saying? Right. Yeah, exactly. That there's the quality.

You know, we know from talking to people that knew the family that, that they described Shanna as being the black sheep of the family, that when they had stamping up meeting, she was never brought on stage, she was always in the background. You know, in many ways, she felt sort of hidden from view. And she felt like a bit of an outsider and a misfit. And so I think there's, you have this rebellion. quality here that that's, you know, sticking it to her family in her way. Like she did that with Mario and here she seems to be doing it in jail in this relationship.

She knows they're not going to approve of this. Right. But she doesn't care. I know. She's writing her sister Sage about it. Yeah, she's not keeping this a secret, in other words. She is not hiding her newfound love behind bars with her family. she is making it numb.

Right. So I think you've got this constant, this, she's constantly pushing up against the limits and seeing what she can get away with. And she's saying, you know, part of this is saying to her family,

look, I'm going to test you and see if you're still going to love me. Right? She did that with Mario. She did it with Jared to some degree. Not only is she controlling, but she's also, there's this attention-seeking quality

where she wants to push up against the limits or transgress the limits and see if people are willing to tolerate it. See if her family. Is her family going to accept this? Are they going to reject her? She wants to know. The message she's constantly sending,

I think the underlying message she's sending is, will you love me? Yeah. If I push you and I challenge you and I push you over the edge, will you be there for me? Will you continue to pay for my defense? Will you still love me?

Because, I mean, underneath at all, I think that's another message here is she didn't feel loved enough. And so there's no limits to how far she can push her family to see if they'll reject her. Or love her. Right. Well, that's what I mean. If they're not rejecting her, then she perceives that as love. And so this is one way she gets love or narcissistic supply. And money is very much a narcissistic supply.

in this family, but to use your word, because money is very much how, I should say, love is shown. And by spending millions and millions of dollars on the best defense attorney in the country, I guess they're letting her know. I think she knows, by the way, that she knows they're not going to reject her. So she knows that she's going to, she can push the limits as far as she wants and she'll get away with it. And that's the sense of entitlement. You know, one of the things that the mission commandants told us was she just took charge of

everything and she flaunted her money and she flaunted her wealth and she flunted this privilege and she did whatever she wanted to to quote one of the mission companions she just took charge of everything that was never any asking unquote right that's that's kind of

that's sort of what she's doing in jail I mean for most people jail would pose constraints but apparently for her it doesn't she can engage in any relationship she wants she can have contraband She can, you know, she can, she can access whatever she wants in jail because she's entitled and wealthy and she is going to push the limits. So last question then.

What do you make of this Henry Tenon mystery? It really is a mystery. We don't know whether or not he gave an entire false testimony or if he just, we don't know why he said false testimony and what he means. by that. But it's certainly sort of overwhelming to me. Especially, I'll be honest, after the Richard Allen trial and seeing that and seeing how people tried to say his confessions weren't real. Like a little bit of deja vu. So much of this. But they have, they have eyewitnesses that identified the truck in the vicinity. Oh, yeah.

No, and it was Henry Tenon's truck. But what if he said testimony about Mario being a murderer or Shannon? That's what I'm stressed about. What if he says, yeah, that was, you know, he's, he's the hit man. But he also, I know he, the day before Mario was arrested, he testified. They still have a case. They still have a case. Follow the money. Follow the money.

That's true. They still have a case. It's not, even if he retracts or recants, it, I don't, I mean, it's going to damage their case, of course, because, but, you know, first of all, he's not the strongest witness on the planet. He's a career criminal. So, I mean, he's not going to be the best witness. I think they're going to, they have receipts. They have other receipts. They have, you know, follow the money.

They have tax. There's, there's other things going on here that will allow them. to put on their case. Yeah. The biggest receipt, in my opinion, right now. We learned this, you know, with all the hearings that Jose Baez was demanding because he wanted to know, he wanted the state and the prosecution to show their hand. But Mario Fernandez had full access to Shanna Gardner's trust.

Something that I know from multiple sources has never happened in Gardner family history. No, they have many daughters and no son-in-law, no husband of these daughters has ever had full access to Shanna Gardner's dress. But Mario Fernandez did. And checks from Mario and, you know, from Shanna's bank account and $5,000 increments, you're right, follow, follow the money. Follow the money. And look, there's plenty of other receipts, text messages, emails, like there's, there's, I think there's other facets of this case that will allow them to corroborate Mario's involvement. So, I mean, of course they want Henry's testimony.

And I don't know enough about it, like the details. Could be a nothing burger, right? Could be a nothing burger. Yeah, it might be. I mean, you have, Jose Baez is, you know, he's going to go after every little minuscule error or, right or even like he's going to take things out of context he's going to he's going to he's you know he's i mean he's a good defense attorney but he's yeah well in this case it's mario's attorney but who knows where jose is you know fitting in his agenda too right um yeah yeah we'll see we'll wait and see

we'll wait and see there was one more thing i was going to mention you reminded me of this follow the money. Oh, follow the money and then follow the tattoo artist's testimony too, who gave the tip to police that Shiana was asking him, do you know of anyone that can take care of Jared? Shocked this tattoo artist so much that he gave this tip to police. Yeah. Well, you're right. Yeah, there's a lot of evidence here. But who knows? You know, you've got to really, savvy defense attorney who's one of the best and he's a shark. So I don't know. But I mean, I'd have to think that it seems like they have a fairly strong case right now. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Thanks, babe, for jumping on. By the way, I like your hat. Reminds me that I should

put a link to some of our merchandise. This episode, we don't be very good promoting our merchandise. You're wearing the hidden chew crime hat. And so I'll put a link to that in the description of this episode as well. So yeah, this was a, this was a birthday present that you got for me. So I love it. Yeah, thank you. I love this hat. You're welcome. I know you well.

I thought what he wants is a hat with hidden. A hat to jump on a show at the last minute. Because you just got back to playing basketball with our son. Yeah. So thank you for taking it out today. Right. On a bad hair day. Well, it looks good.

Thanks, babe. Okay. All right. All right. We'll see you. Okay. Bye. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day.

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