Hidden True Crime - GABBY PETITO: Full analysis of Body cam footage with Dr John Matthias, Criminal Psychologist

Episode Date: February 20, 2025

This full analysis of the Moab Utah Police body Cam footage was recorded on September 16th, 2021, while Gabby Petito was still missing. It has never been published on this podcast, until now. Host, Criminal psychologist Dr John Matthias, has worked for years with victims of domestic violence and he shares here what he recognized the very day the footage came down– while the world still hoped to bring Gabby home. If Gabby Petito taught us anything, it is that signs of domestic violence and abusive relationships are often hidden in plain sight.  Domestic Abuse Hotline: [phone] About Hidden True Crime: Lauren Matthias, a former television reporter, and her husband Dr. John Matthias, a criminal psychologist, started Hidden True Crime in 2020 with their Season, 'Beyond the Veil,' a psychological deep dive into the doomsday murders and prophet. What started as a simple conversation at their dinner table became a captivating podcast. Join the dynamic duo of Dr. John Matthias, a forensic psychologist, and Lauren Matthias, an investigative journalist, as they delve into the psychological facets of unthinkable crimes every week. Their unique perspectives and in-depth analysis offer a fresh take on true crime storytelling. Thank you for your support through sponsorships, subscribing, listening, and becoming a Patreon member at Patreon.com/HiddenTrueCrime Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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premium materials like European linen, organic cotton, but they cut out the middleman. So everything is priced way lower than you'd expect. Refresh. every day with luxury you can actually use. Head to quince.com slash hidden true crime for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quince, quince, q-u-in-c-com slash hidden true crime for free shipping and 365 day of returns. Quince.com slash hidden true crime. With the documentary, American murder Gabby Petito now streaming on Netflix and a renewed interest in the Gabby Petito case that has emerged we are releasing episodes that we have never shared before here on our podcast. John and I covered the case of Gabby Petito while she was still missing,

but we were small and only posting on YouTube at that time. And so this episode, it was originally a video that we released on YouTube three and a half years ago. The Moab body camera footage had just been released that day, the infamous footage of Gabby and Brian. Gabby's disappearance was still a mystery. We were all still looking for her. and John and I, we sat down to react to what we saw as vital clues in her disappearance when we saw this footage.

Now, a warning, the sound is not good on this episode, to say the least. Hidden True Crime was a much smaller operation back then. We were still recording at our dining room table. This body cam footage, it already had poor sound because of all the wind in the background, which we tried to improve. We were using microphones we've now replaced. But while the sound on this episode will be disappointing, we feel strongly that the commentary on this four-year-old body cam footage while Gabby was still missing is so important to share.

It's still so relevant today. If Gabby Petito taught us anything, it is that the signs of domestic violence and abusive relationships are often hiding in plain sight. Dr. John Matthias, my co-host, as you know, he has worked for years, actually, with victims of domestic violence. So he shares here what he recognized, that very day that the footage came down, that the day that that footage was released for the public to see, September 16th, 2021, while the world still hoped to bring Gabby home.

That's exactly what someone does when they choke someone, except to choke someone, you move that hand down about six inches, right? Like, if there's ever a threat, if you want to threaten someone, do that to their jaw and give them the impression that you can choke them too, right? Like he grabs her jaw and he shakes it like with force so much so that he hurts her. And I think the message is, I can do this lower on your neck and kill you. I mean, obviously, he's not saying that, but she has to infer that that if he's doing that here, why isn't he going to do it lower?

And of course, we don't know the history. Maybe he's tried to choke her before, right? Maybe he's, we don't know, but there could be, there could be some of that violence in their past. Hidden, a true crime podcast. A forensic psychologist and a journalist explore the hidden motives behind unthinkable crimes while examining our deepest fears along the way. We're going to do something that Dr. John and I have never done before.

we're going to assess the body cabin footage of Gabby and Brian together with you. We were talking about how we wanted to do this and this is how we were doing it earlier was we were watching this together and pausing it and playing it and pausing it and playing it. So we have attempted to improve the sound by getting rid of some of the noise. I'll be honest, sometimes it improves the sound. Other times it doesn't totally. But I think for the most part it does, we were able to hear some things we had on her before. It is irritating not to cure all of it.

And there's also parts where the police officer will turn the sound off. Here we go. You have a place your vehicle in the park and then from the last street? No, park. Oh, for the reason, unfortunately. Go ahead and set your keys on the dash. All right. What's you guys his names?

Gabby, Brian? Okay. What's going on? How can you try? Are you please fighting in distributing some personal influence? There's a long day we're here in camping yesterday and kept in charge of I'm sorry.

I'm sorry I hit the bump there. I was distracting him. I'm driving. I'm sorry. So this is interesting to me right away because he starts with the I'm sorry. Right. like he from the minute

from within the first 15 seconds and he starts talking he's already apologizing he is showing real emotion she's like really upset and he seems controlled to me in that he's probably really angry at her

or upset that he's just been pulled over but you don't see anything he's just like hey sorry he's just like nothing well I think the sorry is his attempt to

tell the officer he's not a threat he's trying to disarm the officer or remove any sense of threat. And it could be because, as we'll talk about later, he is upset. He is angry. And so he's putting up this facade that he's not. And I think the other thing that all these sorries that keep coming up over and over again, I think it's not only sending that message of not being a threat,

but I think he's also partially guilty. I think it shows a guilty conscience that he knows that when they want to arrest her, and when they see her as the aggressor, that that's not true. That's a fake narrative, right? That's a false narrative. Let's see. Yeah, let's keep going on. Now we know how you really feel.

I get you to step out of the vehicle for me, man. Just hang tight right there. Do you mind if I take your keys and just put them on your hood? Oh, no, you're fine. I will say this. I do like that the first thing the police officers did was separate them. That was good. That was good.

I'm going to go ahead and close it. What was you going to go? So 229. I've had this email that was in the past years. Ceree on the hook. I was on the left. I don't know. I was like OCD.

I was just cleaning when he was creating up back around before and I was apologizing. me in saying, I'm sorry that I'm so mean. Really quickly, she is apologizing. The first thing she says is she blames herself. I'm sorry. I have OCD, which we don't know if that's official diagnosis. It could be something he's telling her. But either way, I'm sorry, I have OCD.

I was cleaning up and I was, you know, and she was saying I was apologizing to him. Sometimes I have OCD and sometimes I can get really frustrated. I'm not like mean towards him. I just like, I mean, I guess. so she can get frustrated but not mean towards him so her frustration isn't even focused towards him my vibe is like but it's her vibe that the problem I'm sorry if I'm in a bad mood I just mean I'm sorry if I'm in a bad mood I just really says ahead

that to me sounds like someone who's used to taking a lot of criticism yes right this is this is someone who's trying to appease someone this is someone who's placating someone a lot, right? Like, she's blaming herself because she's gone through this drill many times before, I think. That's what I'm seeing. Oh, I'm sorry about OCD. Sometimes I can clean up. I mean, let's also talk about how important it is that her van is clean.

This is her business venture. She's put everything into this van. She does videos of her van. She lives in her van. She shows how cute it is. She's decorated her van. So it's kind of a big deal to clean her van. and right, it seems like somebody to me

has been through this drill over and over again. I'm so sorry, I guess I can get, I'm OCD because I want my van to be clean. I get frustrated, but I'm not mean to him, but it's my vibe. It actually sounds to me like she's talking to him. Right. It almost sounds as if like this is what she says to him. She's been conditioned to say that to apologize.

Yeah, to immediately back down and apologize and take the brunt of the blame. Right. And I'll also say this. The first thing that came out of her mouth was, I have OCD, another foreshadowing bit. It seems like the police never forget that. I think at this moment, they chalk it up to a mental health issue. And I take her to mean, I just took it to mean that it wasn't like the diagnosis. I took it to mean that like somebody saying, yeah, I'm a little OCD. I like the house clean. Right. Like maybe she has the diagnosis, but it seems to me like this is more of an. formal statement about. You know, I can never make him happy. The house is never clean enough. The van's right. Right. And again, wanting her van to be clean, put this in context.

She's saying I'm a little OCD because she wants her van to be clean. Again, this is her everything. She's given up her job, her life, everything for this idea of documenting her van life. This is her home. What do you do with my home?

What do you do for letting me? And why? I was just for a guy. far, but I just hit my dog. I was a nutrition. I told her as much. I just got in my dad to travel across the country. I'm trying to start a log.

So I've been building my website. I'm really trying to really believe that I'd kill any of it. I don't know. He's like he's like a he's like a downer. Doesn't believe in her.

Right. So this this is I think, this either the most pivotal moment or one of the most pivotal moments in the body camp footage when she says he doesn't even believe that i can do this right yeah we'll play it again okay okay i'm sorry if i'm in a bad mood i just really stressed i had just almost work i was doing like a good period this morning what do you do for living um well i i think just for getting an organic juice bar but i just quit my job okay i was a nutritionist that's what that's my job right i just uh in my job to travel across the country and I'm trying to start a blog.

So I've been building my website. He doesn't really believe that I could do any of it. I don't know. He's like a down there. I don't know. Also, this working on her blog website thing is also, again, a really big deal. Put this in context. This is, again, what she's trying so hard to do.

and he's been clearly negative of this attempt of hers for a while. It seemed like, you know, this is a regular thing. He doesn't believe in me. So this is definitely, again, something I think is continuing to happen to her over and over again. He doesn't believe in her. And it raises the question about why is he with her? If he's not going to support him or if he's not going to be constructive

or if he doesn't see her vision, right? like why is he traveling with her if he's going to be critical and tell her it's not going to work right she's putting everything on the line for this and it's her vision it's her dream and i think she wants to include him because she's engaged to him and she sees him as a vital part of her life right like she's she's bringing him along for this ride because she loves him or wants to love him and so but she's got this guy who you know apparently from the start doesn't believe in her awesome One thing she didn't say, she didn't say he doesn't want to call him or he doesn't want to be doing this with me. It's just he doesn't believe in me. He doesn't believe I can do any of this.

I can do, yeah, I can do this. And why wouldn't you believe in her? Do you think he even wants her to succeed? That's a tricky question. I think that the blog, the video blog could be something of a threat to him. I think that he might see it as potential threat if it gets a lot of attention. and perhaps there's some suitors out there that might be interested in her that are going to be less conflictual or, you know,

they're going to be more suitable to her, right? So they could be threats. I think having a successful video blog is a real threat to him. And I think there could be some element of sabotage. Yeah. And you would have, I mean, then I would have a friend. I would be like your first. going to let me in the car before.

Let's talk about that. Again, everyone remember, the car is her home. Right. That she decorated. That's in her name that she's troubled with. This isn't just being locked out of his car. This is her life, her van, her home. She is locked out of her home.

I believe that if you any of it, that's kind of thing. I don't know. We didn't invite him all morning and you would help me in the car. I'm a woman. I would be written them first. It's so many people.

So many of them now. Yes. But I need to be wrong. All the time. And he really says to me. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the Internet. And then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent.

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monitoring or just a VPN. ORA gives you all of it, together, at the same price competitors charge for just one service. Start your free trial today at ORA.com slash remove. Protect yourself now at aura.com slash remove. He's telling me to calm down, which I, if you ever told me to come down, probably not be very. Right. I'd be, I'd be sleeping at the Motel 6 tonight if I told her to come.

down. I mean, it's it's disrespectful. You know, he's, he's trying to tell her how she should feel. He's trying to dictate her emotions and her feelings, right? It's controlling. It's controlling. He's trying to control her. And again, it's all started because

she was blogging and she might have been cleaning the van. I still haven't heard of any big thing. And she's apologized. What does she just say? He really stresses me out. He really stresses me out. Right. Exactly. So this isn't about her being the aggressor necessarily.

This is about the context of this is that she was locked out of her home. She's living with someone during this period who happens to be her fiancé, who is probably hypercritical of her blog, probably lets her know she's not doing anything right, right? And she's, of course, she's stressed. That's not about OCD. That's about their relationship and the context of their relationship, right? And I think that's where the officers really kind of miss the boat here, is that there's different types of domestic violence.

And one of those types is called resistive violence or reactive violence. And that is domestic violence where the victim will lash out at the offender oftentimes because it's self-protective and because it's the dance that they're used to. Right. Like she, she knows that when he's critical, she knows what's coming, right? She knows what she's going to be subjected to. And there could be, for all we know, there could be some history of physical violence. We don't know for sure. But if that's the case, then it's much more likely that a victim is going to resort to resist to violence because it's a way of protecting themselves. And it's also a way of engaging with the offender so that the violence is over quickly, right?

Like she lashes out, the offender hits back or does whatever, the dance is over. Rather than having this prolonged, drawn-out fight where the victim sometimes knows that they're going to get really hurt. This is in a way it's preemptive. So resistive violence is a way for the victim to actually get it over quicker, since the victim often knows what's about to happen. They will take action so that the fight only lasts. five minutes rather than 30 and the risk actually in very serious domestic violence cases

by victims doing that they're lessening the risk of being killed well there's a quote but I'm paraphrasing but it it says an abuser will often provoke your anger and then use it to prove their point that a little bit like this you know he's provoking you you you are this you're oCD you're so bad up blogging. I mean, where I'm making up what, you know, I think in those cases, it's a question of blame. If the offender is provoking the victim's anger, then they can blame

them. Say, see, look, you push me. You're crazy, which you'll say. You're crazy. So, um, I think that's kind of a case of, um, that's sort of a case of being able to turn the tables and blame the victim. But what I'm talking about

is actually more of a kind of a preemptive situation where the victim is actually considering their survival. Right. Because there's some type of domestic violence abusers that resort to what's called pathological violence. So there's three types of domestic violence, essentially. There's coercive control offenders.

There's reactive violence. So there's coercive violence, reactive violence, and pathological violence. and the coercive offenders are, I would imagine, more like Brian here. They're the guy, they isolate their victims. They're possessive. They're controlling. There's some research on domestic violence by Gottman and Jacobson, and they call offenders. They classify offenders as either pit bulls or cobras. and coercive offenders are like pit bulls.

They keep the violence at home. They keep it confined to usually their intimate relationship, their wife, their spouse, a partner, whatever. They're a lot like this guy, I think. Whereas pathological violence and pathological offenders are more like cobras in the sense that they're indiscriminately violent. These are more like your psychopaths. These are guys that will go into a bar and pick a fight just to pick a fight.

because they're violent everywhere. So, um, and to any pit bull owners, John did not write this research project. No, right. Yeah. I'm not,

I'm not picking on pit bulls. I'm just saying that the category here, the, the basic idea of Gottman and Jacobson is that a pit bull, uh, abuser is, is like a pit bull. They,

they'll latch on, right, and they won't let go. And they're extremely possessive, um, and coercive. coercive. And so reactive violence fits this equation in the sense or resistive of violence just this equation in the sense that it's violence from the victim responding to some history

of a certain type of coercion and a certain type of control, right? Like it's the victim's way of maintaining the relationship and getting the arguments and or physical violence if it's going to occur over faster. This is a rough morning. Well, this is a rough morning. Right. Why don't we do this? Why don't I sit you down in the backseat of my fault?

You're not in any trouble. Okay? I'm not going to be putting handcuffs on you. You obviously don't have any weapons. I'm going to get you into the air conditioning, let you take a breath, relax a little bit, and then I'll come back and trust you in a few minutes, okay?

All right. Like I said, do not in any trouble. So just go ahead and take a single. Okay. Okay. And he comes up. It's going to deliver the voice. Like I can't.

Yeah. What's that? Did you talk to my fiance? Did you talk to Gabby already? What do you want to say about that? Yeah, that's, to me, this opening gambit, if we call it that, is really peculiar because he's not worried about his story or how he's being perceived, right? He's, his first question is, did you talk to her? He's basically saying, what did she tell you about me?

He's trying to assess. He's trying to assess. I think he's afraid. I think he's worried that Gabby may have said, you know what? This guy's violent. He beats me up, whatever. He beats the hell out of me. You know, I think he's really worried that if Gabby tells the truth,

if there is domestic violence here, and there is some history of violence, and she discloses that, then that's going to change their perception entirely. Right? So I think he's trying to take control of the narrative right away, and he's trying to assess what do they know about our relationship. What is she told them?

Is she told them that I've hit her before? He's panicked that they've separated them. He's worried. Yeah, he's worried. Because he's controlling. He's controlling. And the person the police officers did, which I come in the four separate them.

And he's like, did you talk to her? He wants to know if the person talks. And he doesn't know what in the world she's said. Also, I want to throw this out. If he really, really was worried about her and cared about,

he'd be like, is she okay? Right, exactly. He never. He never wants. Yeah. It's an extraordinary way to open this because he wants to know what she said about him essentially. Right. He doesn't want to know how she's doing. He doesn't want to know if she's feeling better, if she's settled down, if she is going to be okay or if the situation is going to be okay. If, you know, he just wants to know, what did she say about me? Yeah, I just spoke to her.

So you want to do me your favor? Let's go ahead and give you to step out of the vehicle. All right? All right. So tell me what's going to be. So tell me what's going on? See? We see this gets worked up sometimes and I try and really distance myself from her. So I lost the car and they walk her.

She gets worked up sometimes and I try to distance myself from her. And so I love the car. That would you just said to you? So I lost the car. But let's start with that. So. that's the theme here. Like he starts off by throwing her into the bus, right?

Saying that she's reactive and emotional and she gets worked out. Right. She apologized. And then I have to distance myself from her. You know, the distancing myself from her, he's going to say a few times, by the way. And the reason I think that's really interesting here is because that's what he does this whole time in the interview.

He distanced himself from her the whole time and he never tries to repair that. you know, the research by Gab and I talk about quite often shows that that healthy couples are able to turn to each other. They lean into each other for emotional support. And his metaphor throughout this whole interview is distance, right? And he does it the whole time. He actually gets closer to the police officers than he does divert. Like, they do tell him he can't talk to her. So in fairness, it's possible that he may have wanted to talk to her.

but I think he probably wanted to talk to her more out of control rather than concern or caring, right? So he's setting the stage here. Like he's telling the officers, and I don't expect the officers to hear this because there's a lot going on. But he's essentially telling them, I distance myself from her. That's what he does all the time. And that's what he does in this interview. He doesn't ever once try to lessen or reduce that distance. wait and

whatever I'm just just the best things but yeah like this is worked up sometimes

and I try and really this is myself bummer so like I lost the car and I left the wake and whatever this morning is that

she's starting to set up like his own website blog and everything so she confirms that's what it's about this morning she was trying

to set up one of her little blogs also also just let's pick up on the word little

like that's condescending. That's condescending. He's referring to her work as little, as an insignificant. Right. It gets hurt up sometimes and I try and really dishing myself bummers and I lost her car and I walked away and then go to whatever this morning

is that she's starting to start up like his own little website blog and everything. Her own little website blog and everything. Right. Like he doesn't know it, but what he's saying is it's a joke. Like it's insignificant. Her own little project of hers, it'll pass. And I'm, I've ventured with her on for,

for over a month. So is he just a passenger in this? You know, in some of the videos of some of the blog videos that we've looked at, he often comes across his secondary. He's in the background often, right? He's not,

he's not really in front of the camera that much. She tries to include him. She tries to include. He seems, many times he seems like a bit player. And I think that's some of her frustration too, right? Like, she's saying to him, if you're going to marry me and we're in this together,

then show me that. Clearly, they chose to do this. He's committed your month already, right? Yeah, I think they've been out for a few months by now, right? Right. Like, if you really don't think it's a big deal, go get a job then. But I mean... Well, I mean, and also it's super condescending to refer to it as a little...

Right. Her little project. No, this is her life. And it's his life, too, though. That's what I'm trying to say. Both of them... Right, it should be, but he doesn't see it that way. How you were telling you?

You really had a nice morning with her, but if they... Also, he just says here. we really had a nice morning. She said, she's now said a couple of times, we've been fighting all morning, and it's been a really rough morning. And he's saying,

we really had a nice morning. Right, so he's trying to sugarcoat it. But she just, you know, worked up because you're trying to get going, they're going, because you want to go,

because she got worked up, we're trying to get a day going, but he doesn't really give a specific. How? How does she get worked up? Well, you're not telling us. He tells us that they had a fight over the blog,

it sounds like. I mean, he. But he gives no, details. He'll change that story. Do you want to tell me about those scratches on your face? He doesn't bring up the scratches either.

He didn't his cell phone in, that's why I was pushing her away. So he had a cell phone in her hand, and that's why I'm pushing her away. It doesn't make sense to me. So was he scared of a cell phone? Was he scared she was going to call someone? Was he scared that she was going to throw it at him? Was he scared

that she was going to take the phone? I like the case. I like the And then did you say he got the keys? We got the keys. He took her keys. That's threatening, too. Like, I'm going to take, I'm going to go. Let's just take a breather.

Let's stop. You go anywhere else. Just calm down for a minute and she didn't work. And then she had her phone with the keys. So he took the keys and she was, he took the keys and she was. He took the keys and so let's take a breather. So again, you know, he's, he's taking control. He's dictating the terms of the relationship.

He's telling her. how she should react. He's telling her how she should feel. He also took her keys. Like that's a threat. She is in a foreign place, not foreign as an overseas, but they don't know this place. All of her belongings and everything that, you know, she's working on is this van. Right. So taking the keys isn't just taking the keys. It's again. It suggests that he could abandon her at any time that he has control. He has control of her van. He has control of her home, which is her man. And he has control of her life. If he takes the keys, he's sending the message and he can take him whenever he wants.

And it sounds like he might have wanted the phone too. And that maybe he was trying to. Yeah, it's not clear why. Right. Because he also, again, he doesn't know what Gabby has told the police. So he's, I think, assuming that maybe she told them that maybe he was pushing her or something because he's kind of saying, this is all that happened. She, you know, he's kind of trying to make it sound sugarcoat, as you would say, make the situation sound better than it was. and the police are going to help him here by

pointing out his scratches. I know some of the police, I just started to push her and he always says that he pushes her. He pushes her. He pushes. You see she got me with the phone. Do you see your hand?

Did she say she got me with the phone, right? Got me with the phone. Oh, you got a mark right here. Oh, that's from O'Mire. Yeah. Do you want something about hitting that curse? Didn't the third one's her grandfather on me. She got, but we got it.

So. So let's just talk about, let's talk about his demeanor really quickly. His voice is monotone. He's really flat. Right. He's, he's what I would say, the term I would use to describe him, he's overcontrolled. Like he's, he's clearly trying to suppress whatever anger or whatever emotions he's feeling. He reminds me a lot of some inmates that, you know, I've seen, or, you know, I've seen. worked with over the years who exhibit what I call over-controlled hostility. But I think beneath this demeanor, you know, his voice drives me crazy because it's just so monotone and so like there's kind of a rapidity to his speech. It's a little rapid, but it's also really, really flat. And that's somebody who's struggles with emotional self-regulation, I think. Like he can't, he's not good with his emotions, particularly anger. I think, and he's just very detached.

He's just very unemotional. What about the speed? He used to take up the pole. No, I found the pedal on him. I was going past, I'm sorry. I know, I was probably just the moment about, I'm supposed to see the light splashed up and then they're going to be there.

So, we got on about two. Why are you speeding? Let's talk about how fast you're speeding. It was 15 miles per hour and he was going over 40. He's going 48, I think. Yeah, 42, 45, 48. But he just said, I see. saw the lights and adrenaline kicked in so I was speeding. So in other words, he was, that's like considered like a high-speed chase.

All of a sudden, he's like speeding away from. I mean, when he said that, my first thought was if I see the lights in my rearview mirror, I'm going to break. Like my first impulse is the adrenaline will kick in probably, but my first impulse isn't to try to run from the police. So I don't know how the police officer agrees with him on that. Like I think a normal response would be fear. And he doesn't seem to have that.

He says his adrenaline kicked him, but his first response is, I'm going to run. And that's apparently when she like punched him on the arm. Like, what are you doing? You're accelerating. Right. He claims that she pulled this during a while. She says she did not. Right.

Again, think about that. You've had this awful morning. You've had something that was intense enough that a witness called police. And then police are following you and you're speeding. Well, you seem to. accelerate. Like she, she never drives this van. So, so, so, so she must have been a little taken aback when he started to accelerate. Right. I'm sure she was freaking out. It would be. I'd be like, so are we going to go on a high speed chase to Arches National Park where it's 15 miles an hour?

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Plus, if you subscribe, you'll get an additional 20% off. Discover your true age today. So if I spit up, I'm sorry about that. If I sped up and sorry about that. Oh, and I'll throw in if I was speaking before, I'm also sorry about that. Because really, I've just been speeding for quite a long time. But no one cares. Yes, because it's quite a minute.

how many times he's going to say I'm sorry so what he's manipulating here he's trying to he's trying to get the officers to like him and he's showing them that he's not a threat this is definitely manipulation but I think there might be some guilt too right like yeah he knows that the narrative they're about to accept or

portray to him which is that he's the victim he probably knows that that narrative is false the park again and get water to get a six-down water container to hell up so we just get more for the height I didn't water for the hike

I was done to keep everything problem with fire because it's playing still to go for a hike but it's good I'm sorry I don't know

about this his story just take a seat over here on the grocery I mean I'm sorry I'm sorry

I'm sorry you know you know anything and I'm back you know nope because you know on the

you know of a single side so I can't I got turn right for me that's all man go ahead, do me if they go ahead. But it's working, by the way. Like, he is... Oh, do you have your ID on you?

He's getting... It's working. The perpetual service is working. What's the person name? Brian? Brian? Brian? Is it a good thing?

Yeah, Ryan? Henry you, right? All right. Nothing much here. Or? Just a week. See, I think it. It's it.

It's it. Just time, time for me. So 2-29. I need a 29 from the name and data birth. First name, Brian, Lehman's spelling, last name. also I do think we're

also I do think we might have skipped over one thing where the police officer called her hysterical they said did you get much from her and he said I don't know she was hysterical we might have just skipped over them he said she was hyperventile oh hyperventilating

that made me really angry the first time we watched it because again once she came I mean she was crying she wasn't she wasn't hyperventilating she was upset she was crying and she was going through something traumatic, including a high-speed chase, you know, throwing that at the end. So if we missed that, I wanted to bring that up. I feel like the police officers here have made up their mind already about her as over-emotional

with having mental illness because she's mentioned OCD and she was hyperventilating. Stopping first. Some space. Hi, about Romeo, India, Alpha, Nelson, Dr. He's going to be out of Florida I'm saying He's not going to stop it He just got me

So did she just say he just grabbed me But he wants to know if he hit her I couldn't He couldn't be out of Florida I'm saying He just grabbed you So he grabbed me You know, do we know

He's not It's okay if you say you can't know, John, I'm saying to be active in. This part is. This part is that way. Where did he get you?

So now he's where to be hit you. This part is so important. He grabbed her face. Like you were, I guess you should have a thing.

And she's like, you're very much. And thanks for a lot. By the way, right there, he's got my face. Yeah. By the way, right there, I think she says, and it really hurt. So she tells him twice, he grabbed my face, he grabbed my face. And then the police officer says, but did he slap you or did he hit you?

And so she tells him again, well, he didn't hit me, but he grabbed my face like this, and it's really hurt. And I'm pretty sure I listen to this over and over, at the end when she does this thing with her cheek, I think she says it hurt. And this, I know that you're going to say a lot about this, but I just want to play it one more time because nobody mentions it. And the police officers, it makes me angry, don't ever talk to her about it. That's not saying stand back, stand back. It's okay for saying, you know, I'm saying that you don't want to be actually.

Thank you. It was. I'm trying to say. Where did you? It's not the word. grab my face like this what do you have to say about that um i think it's

it's upsetting because the officer is looking for something like hitting or punching like he's not taking seriously this idea that you could harm someone by taking your hand and putting it on their jaw but you can't even do it to me as an example and I want you to.

Like, it's like really. But when I first saw her do that, though, the first thing that occurred to me is that's exactly what someone does when they choke someone. Except to choke someone, you move that hand down about six inches, right? Like, if there's ever a threat,

if you want to threaten someone, do that to their jaw and give them the impression that you can choke them too, right? Like he grabs her jaw and he shakes it like with force so much so that he hurts her. And I think the message is I can do this lower on your neck and kill you. I mean, obviously he's not saying that, but she has to infer that that if he's doing that here, why isn't he going to do it lower? And of course, we don't know the history.

Maybe he's tried to choke her before, right? Maybe he's, we don't know, but there could be, there could be some of that violence in their past. At the very least, this is not pushing her to get away. This is, this would, this is a power play. This is saying, I'm in charge and I'm in control. Like you don't, that's not pushing someone to say, let's create distance. That's threatening somebody. Yeah, that's, that's letting someone know that you're in charge.

I'm going to just go back and play for bear. to which I don't feel like that. I guess you're not. I guess you're not going to take you. You stop your face or watch? Oh, like, so has you been mad to be like to have to have to be quiet and sometimes

and I can make your thinking too like that. Yeah. Okay. So has he been thinking? No. No, we're okay. Okay. Oh, look, this timing.

I'm like, stop staying. Hi, hi. Are you talking? What? I didn't get me. But not a lot. Again, they were speeding. He was, like, about to take off as she

did you want to have a time. Did you want to say her name of us? I didn't get back on her in. She was hyperventile. She said they don't drink, but at the point where you put them up. You don't picture anything. I mean, yeah, I had them to do it.

I said I, like, that she's saying was like getting her. You said it was Gabby? Right, so she had nothing else to be able to do. The police were now chasing him. He was taking off and she was like, freaking stop. And also for that, there you go. There's where he said it. She was hyperventilating.

She wasn't hyperventilating. She also said at some point that she was hyperventilating the whole time. Yeah. he says that later on. She's actually calming down pretty quickly. She's not a hyperbinelating at all right here. She said that Larry and she said that

Larry to you, Spress. Brian? Is he usually pretty patient with you? He's usually pretty patient with you? He said I know that he definitely is first you have to be a lot. So why don't he just contradicted yourself? Because

is he really patient with you? Like you's right on Brian's side. And she goes, yeah, but actually um, no, he it's frustrated with me a lot. So no. Right. So no, he's not. He's not. My anxiety

and bringing it down, but my ex-life, my ex-wife, just trying to end up until the person, but help you understand. He would feed off these other things. I didn't spiral. It's not in the end of the same. Maybe bad for the soul.

Same. I'm not saying I'm not talking about your life, but if you know what you have anxiety, look at them. This, by the way, is, um, there's some moments here. where I refer to the police as life coaches.

So this is when the police life coaches come into play. So we'll see, I get why they're doing it, by the way. They're doing it because they're trying to be more relatable. They're trying to develop rapport, right? But so it's fine. I think it's fine. But it's interesting that there's a lot of kind of life coaching moments throughout this footage.

situations you can get in. You know what I mean? You don't here to be easy. You know, there's a first time that I can't really have. We'll see what Brian is saying, but I think you've heard everything now. A quick question. You said you were hitting him in the arm. Well, so again, no questions about the squeezing of her face.

No questions about. Right. She said at one point that there was a hitting. She kind of switched. Well, it wasn't like hitting, you know, hitting me. but earlier they said they're already convinced that she's the aggressor they've already made up their mind that she initiated it

so even though he was grabbing her jaw and shaking it and pulling hard on it they don't see that as relevant and I think it was the moment she walked stepped out and said OCD because we've now had so many comments about

she was hyperventilating and then he came over and the first thing said it So you have anxiety. You have a lot of anxiety. And then he brings up this relatable moment of his ex-wife. They fed off each other's anxiety. They're now divorced. X-wife.

You know, they've already decided this is a mental health crisis, not an assault or an abuse of manipulation. And again, they never consider the fact that maybe her violence is reacting, that she's reacting to the fact that she had no access to her home, that he was probably being critical of her blog all morning, letting her know she wasn't going to make it.

work. It wasn't going to be successful. I mean, I don't know that for sure. I'm inferring that, but it's not hard to imagine that he was belittling her in some capacity before all this happened. Well, I mean, for this too, and you know, speculation, but I've seen their YouTube videos. Again, this van was decorated. She spent time, money, TLC, gave up her work for this as a nutritionist. she tells the police officer. And so I don't know if it would be OCD to want to keep the van clean. So she's cleaning it. And if he is being disrespectful in that sense, I would be really upset.

This is not just like keeping a dirty car. This is, again, her heart and soul that she's working really hard. And if she, if he, you know, was being disrespectful and just getting in it with his muddy shoes, yeah, you know. just I don't know if that happened again like you but I'm just trying to again give context what this is he talks about the money shoes later okay that's what yeah I thought I had heard something about that that's coming up do you grab the steering wheel yeah he didn't have actually see it I only around a second because I just so the lights you know what did you grab this

steel me on like sorry anything like that problem I don't she's a girl about So, contradiction. I'm going to invite and calls this score again. Do you have any fare back to her? Do you want me to figure out something? We'll see if I can find something. She's done a great job calming down now. Yeah.

Yeah. I'm going to have to be. And I get back. Did you already get the same to this office? Wow. I've got this. This is right here. in the vast thing you have to our tiger.

Yeah. This is the barredsing to do. Let's try to figure out what will happen. I know you probably told the story. This office is probably going to have to say. You want to listen to what you have to say. Yep. So we don't mind.

Sorry at the beginning of the road. So at the beginning, um, closed. I don't know. Beyond Lynn for the best, so week or so. And the flies here, like pretty intense. sense. It's not if the flights

twice. I was definitely going to get into her. And then my feet are great and everything

and I think that a little small that started because you're hanging out the coffee shop and when

I got back to the band and when I moved our food around and the whole facility you know

so she gets a little three tape those I'm sorry on that you need in water

that's okay that's okay that's okay I was all up you're going and get one because you ran

out no I'm sorry I don't know like class the bottom thank you that

but we just had a little disagreement there and this being just that she's getting all worked up but I would say it also he's always blaming her little disagreement she was getting worked up she was getting ready he never ever teach responsibility for anything right we had a little disagreement look at his hands too like he's just like look at me I you know I'm just sitting here smiling with my hands crossed he's always blaming her always had a little disagreement and she got worked up it's feeding into this mental health crisis. Yeah, and the hands are similar to the saries. He's trying to send the message that he's not a threat, that he's not a threat and he's a calm guy. Right. As long as it's cool. That's good. Um, so there's just more of this being and I just want to be supposed to just seem about it. It was, it was, I haven't even called this one. We just say, I'm dirty and I can't see anything being baby like I got 30 feet. I got Santa my phocopsy and stuff like that. No, you could actually wipe the feet off this thing.

It was every spare, the poppy shop, the store, because you're here from mine to, I mean, so there's a few little, little things. I've been to over five years now. There's a lot of little things. So that, I mean, if little things are getting this irritated, the big things are going to be a disaster. Right.

Right. And like, I mean, he's telling you that they fight over everything, essentially. Someone might say to you, well, what do you expect when they're on a road trip for months in the small quarters? I'm saying this because I've seen this on comment. But your point is, that's not what this is about. This is about dirty feet, flies, a little blog. Right. Who's OCD?

Yeah. You know, who's OCD? Is it, I mean, she's looking better. like he's picking up on the little things. I get it. We weren't physical before the point where I said, we weren't physical before the point. I'll say he's talking about being physical.

And he never says, he actually, he still doesn't know what he's, she said. And he says we. He says we. He's always blaming her. She gets worked up.

She gets worked up. But right here he says, we didn't get physical in time. Right. Let's just take a breathing here and like, walk the leg, but he'll lock the van up. And I'll go for this way and you can go off the death.

By the way, I don't think that's why he took the keys. You want to be in control. Yeah. And also, you just don't lock someone out of their house. But if you want to calm someone down, don't take the keys to their house. Yeah, there's it. You know, nice areas. You go into the way.

It's all straight. So let's see if a little wuff and reason to come back. This degree here. I'm not upset that they're perceived. Um, but they're not upset that they're perceived out. So he's worked out, and she had a bone in my name and keys and everything. She wanted to find out of her bringing seeds. And he's also,

he's also very much playing on the stereotype that women are hysterical and women get worked up. Right. And women aren't trustworthy. He's, he's definitely bringing in some sexist stuff here, right? He's, he's going to try to win the police over with that argument, too. Not going to, he has.

He has. He has won over, right? I mean, they're going with it. Yeah, I've been married five years. Yeah, my ex-wife and her anxiety. I mean, that's... Right. They could be at a bar, you know, drinking a few beers at this point.

I wouldn't be surprised if they were a few hours later. I was holding on the keys because I didn't want to go anywhere. I took her keys because I didn't want her to go anywhere. This is interesting. Big fears. I don't have my phone. I don't have a phone. You said he didn't have a phone, by the way.

At the end, she says, make sure he doesn't forget his phone charger. So that's a... Wait, go back to that? Okay. at the very end of this because it is getting late who knows if we'll get there or not but he does she phone

I know a kid her bringing seeds and things phone I was all down the piece but I didn't want to go anywhere and my big fear is I didn't want to go anywhere and my big fear is

we're going to hear it slowly but surely it's really I don't have my phone I don't have a phone so she goes off without me so his big fear is he doesn't have a phone which is a lie

because she just made so much, you know, she, like, made it very clear that he just cannot forget his phone charger. She was taking care of him at the end when they were going separate ways. Make sure he brings his phone charger. And he says, my biggest fear is that I don't have a phone and she'll take off and leave me. Play that again.

This is where he said, he's afraid that she'll, like, leave him without a phone stranded. She wanted to find out of her bringing seeds and their phones, phone. Well, I was held on the piece, but I didn't know want to go anywhere. And I like a big fear. I don't know my phone. I don't have a phone. So she goes off without me. I'm on my own. So I was say, let's just go for work and she's trying to get the piece for me. So I just wait back to that company. Does me think. I didn't. I didn't get my own to push you.

This is important for two reasons. He says he doesn't have her phone. Sorry. I'm on my own. I'm on my own. If she leaves, it takes off, I'm on my own. And I want to say two things while I rewind and listen to this again. At the end, she, as they're being separated in this, when they say, is there anything you want to tell him? She was, will you please make sure he doesn't forget a phone charger?

Like, she's taking care of him. You know, and he does this panic about, he said, he's clean. He doesn't have a phone. She's like making sure he has a phone. And then he says, I'm a phone. afraid she's going to take off. Also at the end of this, we'll hear her get in her own van freaked out because she doesn't drive it and she's praying that where they're sending her isn't too far away because

she doesn't think she can make it alone. As in, there's no threat that she's going to leave in the van because she doesn't even want to drive to the place she's staying alone. She says, I don't drive this van. So. I don't have my phone. I don't have a phone. So she goes off without me.

that I'm on my own. So I'm just going to get the peace for me. So when he's sweet back to that nothing doesn't seem. I didn't I didn't give him on the shoes. I didn't give it. I think this is a really pivotal moment

because we see how deep his fears of abandonment are here. And we see how insecurity is that in some ways he's showing us what he's really most concerned about here, which is the fact that, she may leave, she may abandon him, she may leave him stranded alone, which ironically may be the

very thing that he did to her, right? And so I think one of the reasons this case appeals or the situation appeals to so many people is because there's a real primal fear here, that human beings, as infants, as babies, infants, toddlers, we need caregivers to survive. That if we're abandoned as children, especially young children, we die. And so there's a tremendously primal fear going on here, I think, in this particular case that's resonating with people. And that fear is about abandonment. And we see that theme constantly here.

But he is saying it. And he's showing his insecurity. And I think part of that is he's afraid that if her blog becomes big, that he may be, become secondary or he may become less important that she may abandon him for someone else. So I think the real threat he's perceiving is that not only will she be successful potentially, but she may abandon him, she may leave him. And that rejection, that abandonment is really, I think, the impetus between, but behind a lot of his fears and a lot of what's going on here.

And, you know, the huge irony is that it's quite possible that that's precisely what he did to her. We don't know how. We don't know the specifics. Maybe there was an accident when they were hiking or something of that nature. But I think it seems really possible that he just left her, right? And just leaving someone, you know, I picture like Yellowstone, leaving someone in the middle of the wilderness amongst all these apex predators. is a real deep fear for human beings. And so I think there's, for me at least,

I think this case, this situation really kind of sparks that primal fear about abandonment and about being left in the middle of nowhere to survive with no protections. Right. And I think that sparks a certain amount of outrage. And I think he's expressing his fear of abandonment, but he turns the tables on her at some point.

I think. And so I think that's really what this is about. His not believing in her is in some ways, I think, a way to sabotage her success. Because if she's not successful, then he won't be threatened. If she's successful, then perhaps the chances of abandonment are greater. So him not participating in a lot of videos or him kind of being secondary or getting the van dirty. These are all kind of passive, aggressive ways of undermining her work, right? These are passive aggressive ways of negating the importance of what she's trying to do. And I think she's telling you right here, or he's telling you right here, that this fear of abandonment is perhaps the most important thing, the issue that's driving almost all of this.

And even the domestic violence, that domestic abusers are greatly concerned about being abandoned. and that's why they isolate their victims and that's why they control them financially. That it's all about not leaving them, not rejecting them, not abanding them. And that goes back to that really primal instinct that human beings have about being protected and being safe and secure and having caregivers that love us so that they won't leave us to die. So I think there's something here, not only is he totally something important about himself, But I think there's something here that's really, really sparking a lot of interest and perhaps fear at some deep level about abandonment issues. Thank you.

I agree. Again, the two things she says is phone. She says, make sure he gets his phone charger. And the second thing at the very end of this video, which we're not going to get to because it has taken so long, she's afraid to even get behind the wheel and drive away alone. I mean, you know, so his fears are kind of not valid. You know, they don't, it doesn't make sense logically here, but it's, so it's got to be more emotional. He's actually projecting.

Yeah. That she's not the one who's going to abandon him. He's going to abandon her. And I think, and that's what happens. At the very least, we'd have to say, even if there was some type of accident and he went back to Florida, he abandoned her. if she's hurt somewhere in a canyon he can get help he doesn't have to just leave her so however you look at this it's about abandoned and nowhere does she suggest that she's going to abandon him she's the one being locked out she's the one not driving the van right he's projecting all of those

fears of abandonment onto her and he's thinking that she's the one that's going to abandon him when in fact it turns out to be exactly the opposite right it is late here. It's kind of funny that we actually even thought we were going to get through this whole video. We'll leave it here and we'll try to do more of the video another time. But this first part is very important. And I think that we covered a lot

of it. And what this all comes down to. Right. And he does. He tells us he's so not vulnerable. He's so not emotional. And then he says, I have this fear. Right. So if you take those two elements, if you take the fact that Gabby says

he doesn't believe I can any of this. She doesn't say he doesn't believe I can do this. She says he doesn't believe I can do any of this, meaning that he's criticizing everything she's doing. And then if you take that and you add in this fear of abandonment, I think, so you've got this really hypercritical attitude towards her project and he's not supportive at all. And then you have this fear of abandonment. I think those are two key pillars here that really tell us what's going on. and that really potentially forecast her demise if that's if that's what happens here. So I don't fault the police for their inability to see this.

This is obviously very subtle and this would take a ton of special training, I think, to be able to pick up on these types of cues. But I do think that the police perhaps could have recognized the fact that this was more reactive violence on her behalf rather than her being the aggressor and her, causing the harm, right? Like, I think maybe they intuited that at the end because they didn't charge anyone

and they let her go. They probably sensed that. But this is domestic violence. This is, you know, I said this a little bit, an interview I did about this case earlier that this is an age-old story. You know, this is something that goes back,

these abandonment issues and controlling other human beings. You know, of course, the classic story of domestic violence is Othello. And Othello is about possession and it's about control. And it's about creating this fantasy based on a handkerchief that someone's cheating on you. And I think this is someone, this guy, Brian, is clearly someone who has this fantasy that she's going to leave him. And that fantasy gets amplified by the fact that she's trying to start this blog that could have wide appeal and can really threaten his prime.

in her life, that if she becomes this internet sensation, then he won't be as prominent. He won't be the star in her life, right? And I think perhaps success threatens him, too, not just the fact that there could be other people interested in her, but her very success means she would be more independent. And I think he probably wants her to be dependent on him. And that's another function of domestic violence. She was even living with his family before this. Yeah, so she was extremely dependent on him. And so this is really, this is really an old story, unfortunately, and it's a story of how do two human beings find intimacy in a healthy manner. And sometimes that's difficult. So I would say that I'd make a little pitch here for domestic violence and just say that if anyone is in a relationship like this or seeing something like this or experiencing something like this, to get help and to find your local. women's shelter and to develop a safety plan to be able to get out. I would encourage people if they

have no other resources or don't know where to turn to call the National Domestic Violence Hotline. That number, by the way, I'll give you that number. That number is 1-800-799-7233. So domestic violence is a very common occurrence, unfortunately. And there's a lot of people that ignore these types of signs and they don't get out and it's unfortunate. Good night. Thank you. Hello, Hidden Jems. It's Lauren with Hidden a True Crime podcast.

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