Hidden True Crime - GILGO BEACH SERIAL KILLER: Blueprint for Murder - shocking arrest affidavit shows plotting and planning

Episode Date: July 6, 2024

Recorded June 23, 2024. Rex Heuermann has been charged with additional murders and a shocking arrest affidavit shows how the alleged serial killer plotted and planned. In a shocking twist-- Attorney John Ray has come forward with disturbing and violent art allegedly drawn by Victoria Heuerman--the daughter of Rex. Dr John Matthias, criminal psychologist, delves in. Heuermann was arrested in July, 2023. He was a married family man and architect working in New York City and at the time of this episode he was charged with the murders of 24-year-old Melissa Barthelemy, 22-year-old Megan Waterman and 27 year-old Amber Costello. Heuermann was later charged with the murders of 25-year-old Maureen Brainard-Barnes, 20-year-old Jessica Taylor and 28-year-old Sandra Costilla. He remains a suspect in continuing investigations. Lauren Matthias - a television reporter - and her husband, Dr. John Matthias - a criminal psychologist - started Hidden True Crime in 2020 with their Season, 'Beyond the Veil,' a psychological deep dive into the doomsday murders of Chad Daybell and Lori Vallow. What started as a simple conversation at their dinner table became a captivating podcast. Join the dynamic duo of Dr. John Matthias, a forensic psychologist, and Lauren Matthias, an investigative journalist, as they delve into the psychological facets of unthinkable crimes every week. Their unique perspectives and in-depth analysis offer a fresh take on true crime storytelling. Thank you for your support through sponsorships, subscribing, listening, and becoming a Patreon member at Patreon.com/HiddenTrueCrime Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Lately, I've been trying to be more intentional about what I wear, intentional about everything, just choosing pieces that feel effortless, still put together, timeless, but also not overthinking it every morning. It's why I keep going back to quince. Their pieces just make getting dressed easier and I feel so classy. I feel elevated. The fits are flattering. The fabric is really high quality. Everything is wearable day to day. I actually got this really, really, beautiful yellow V-neck midi dress from them, and I paired it with some Italian leather sandals. It's one of those outfits that just works. It feels polished but still comfortable. It's exactly what I've been looking for. What surprises me, though, is the quality for the price.

Quince uses premium materials like European linen, organic cotton, but they cut out the middleman. So everything is priced way lower than you'd expect. Refresh. your every day with luxury you can actually use. Head to quince.com slash hidden true crime for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quince, quince, q-u-in-c-com slash hidden true crime for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash hidden true crime. This episode that we're about to listen to is current. We recorded it live on our YouTube channel Hidden True Crime, June 23rd, 2024. Wow, do we have a show for you tonight? Major, major developments in the Rex Heurman case, many of you know that, that have been following LISC, also known as the Gilgo Beach

serial killer. He has been charged now with two more victims. Many were expecting that from his arrest last year, but now it's actually happened along with a probable cause or arrest affidavit that is really shocking. Many of you have asked us to go over this and we are going to talk about that, which is essentially like a blueprint for murder. But also, in addition to that, and before we get to that, there was also a wild press conference. I mentioned it in a short idea.

I did do a short about this or a very short video showing snippets of this conference who brought up paintings or art, maybe not necessarily paintings, but artwork of Victoria Hurman, who is the daughter of Rex. And I think that we're going to start there because that was a woe moment. There were a lot of people writing saying, Dr. John, we need you on this. We need you on this, Dr. John. And I agree. People were asking me, and all I could say was, it was wild. Here are some snippets of it. And again, you know, and I can bring that up. And actually, why don't I do that really quickly. Well, the last time we talked about the human case, we were actually speculating about his wife's potential involvement. So his wife, Asa, and there appears or was some evidence that

Asa was involved in some of the parties that the Hurmans had. Several of those parties appeared to have victims present, and it certainly raised questions about her knowledge of the crimes and maybe potentially her involvement, although obviously. obviously she's denied any involvement. And here you have, although John Ray is not Victoria's attorney, here you have a similar situation. You have speculation about Victoria's potential involvement. And so, you know, I think it's worth exploring what this means.

Let's do that. Here are some snippets from the press conference. Can I share this really quickly? Okay. Disturbing circumstantial information regarding the alleged Long Island serial killer Rex Sherman's daughter. It was put together by John Rees team in New York, and some are calling the information really suspicious,

while others are not so sure. You draw the inference. I'm not going to feed it to you. You draw the inference. It's people hanging. That's what she's looking at. I look particularly at this particular person. There's a shoe missing.

Cedra Castilla was found with a shoe missing. This seems to be a person that was indulged. indulged in by Rex Eurman, a that is depicted and looked at by his daughter. That's a connection. This appears to be the remains of a human being that looks half eaten. Remember that Victoria Ehrman is on the internet reading words and looking at pictures that deal with hard. That is to say, cannibalism.

In this picture, if you look, it has a strange familiarity when you see it because the torso shows that the arm is chopped off at the elbow and the head is, of course, disconnected as well. And the body is being cut up into pieces, the hands, and so on. Who does that match? Jessica Taylor, Valerie Mack, you'll notice in one of the other pictures there's a room that looks like a basement with blood all over. Sound familiar? Does it match Massapequa Park? Quite possibly. Body of a man with the arms and legs sliced off and chopped in half. Interesting. Take a look at the neck of this person being chopped up. Think about Shannon Gilbert and her hyoid bone. Here's what she's reading. Don't be scared because

I said I wanted to crack open your chest and play in your blood. I'm not a scary person. Murder is very romantic. And yes, it's technically illegal to keep a person chained to the wall in your basement. Use their holes, H-O-L-E-S, holes whenever you please, and treat them as nothing but an object for your pleasure. But you're not a person, so what's the problem? The inside of my brain looks like this, a basement with a bed and blood all over it. Tell me what you guys think in the comments,

because at this point, I don't even know what to think. I was just going to lead. So I was going to lead with a code from Asa's attorney. Bob Macedonia that in the last press conference that he had for his client, Rex's wife, now divorced, Bob said, quote, every time you open a paper, turn on the news or listen to the radio, there's some outlandish allegation that's being thrown around by somebody on a podcast. So podcasters are much malign these days, I guess, but not without some reason, by the way. but let's consider, since we're on a podcast and we're going to be analyzing this, let's consider the evidence here.

Number one, only one of those pictures that he displayed was actually composed by Victoria. So most of the pictures that were shown weren't even by her, right? So that doesn't mean that she can identify with them or that she doesn't, some of those paintings or pictures, drawings don't resonate with her. but it's important to point out that she's not drawing those pictures. So, yeah, you can find any pictures on anyone in Instagram account and you can make any type of argument you want. Clearly displaying a drawing that someone has on social media and then arguing that it's causative

or that there's a causal connection between a drawing and someone's behavior or even someone's psyche is pure speculation. So that's what he's doing here. essentially. He's making inferences where he's trying to draw causal connection between the drawings and potentially victorious behaviors or involvement in these crimes. And so that obviously isn't going to stand up in a court of law. There's something that's fairly reckless about that. The reason I mentioned Asa's attorney also is because there's an element of showmanship here too. If you look at how he's presenting this information. It's very theatrical, right? He's getting, he's getting very animated,

and he's expressing himself quite forcefully. I mean, this is, this feels like theater here. So, but why, why, why by the way, would this be theater? And I think, let's go back a little bit and look at, let's consider some of the facts here. Let's look at Victoria's birth date. She's, we know that Rex Timerman and his wife married in 1996. They had a child, Victoria, a year later. That means she was born in 1997. These crimes began, in theory, these crimes began in 1993. So one of the latest charges is for Sandra Skastia, who the crime was alleged to have occurred in 1993. Victoria wasn't even born. So, all right, that's a problem for John Ray's argument. You have a victim one of the latest victims to be added to the indictment, who wasn't even around.

Victoria wasn't even around when this crime occurred. So obviously you can't implicate her in that. Right. But then let's move forward. So one of the other victims was the alleged crime with Jessica Taylor was, hypothetically, it was alleged to have occurred in 2003. So again, Victoria would have been six, roughly. Right.

It's hard to imagine, obviously, that a six-year-old would have any involvement in a crime of this magnitude in nature. It's hard to imagine that a six-year-old would be capable of understanding a crime of this magnitude. So when you do the math, if you just sit down, put all the bluster aside, put all the speculation aside, put the theatrics aside. When you simply look at the time frame here, it doesn't add up. Most of these crimes occurred between 1993 and roughly 2013. So best case scenario, if Victoria was involved in even participating or I heard somebody speculate that, you know, there's been serial killers that have had their children bring victims to the homes, that type of thing. If that was occurring, she would have been young. She would have been a minor.

She still would have been a teenager. Right. Right. So what is this about? I mean, is he saying? I mean, after the press conference, I went to you and I said, this is crazy. Like, he's, he's suggesting that this is a family of cannibals, right? Like, I told you, I said, I'm implying that.

I said, so let me guess how this is. This is before I looked at the bail application, by the way. But because it's ironic, I said, I said, is Rex going out and hunting down victims and then bringing the, like, bringing the victims home so that they can. feed on the victims, right? Like, that's kind of what John Ray's implying. Either Victoria was directly involved in the crimes or somehow involved in getting victims to the house and that somehow the family was feasting, cannibalizing these victims. I mean, it's pretty out there. I would say, given her age and given the timelines of these crimes, there's certainly a component here that's

reckless. However, I am open to the idea. I mean, there's also no evidence here. So give me some concrete evidence that ties Victoria into these crimes. I guess John Ray mentioned that a hair strand or hair strands were found on or around some of the victim's bodies, duct tape, that's sort of thing. But we don't know, we don't know if that was Victoria's or we don't know if that was his wife's asses. And also the police are saying essentially that those hair strands were transferred from the home. That doesn't necessarily mean that Victoria, let's say, it was one of her hair strands, that she was directly involved. So these are all problems. I think that if somebody like John Ray can point to some direct evidence, aside from pure speculation, I think maybe some of the later

crimes, you know, maybe they, if law enforcement hasn't done it already, maybe there can be some type of investigation or, I mean, you know, maybe it warrants some small investigation or some examination of social media, but I'm not sure. I mean, you got to, you have to, you know, you have to present a little more evidence than this in order for this, I think, to make any sense. Right. I'm going to read, by the way, this is from, this is page 15 of the bail application in the new charges. Again, this is, this would be evidence that Fikoria wasn't involved. quote, based on the foregoing, the investigation to date has clearly established defendant Hewerman's wife and children were indeed located out of state during the time of Jessica Taylor's

disappearance, which occurred on or about July 21, 2003. Accordingly, the murders of all four charged victims, and now the murder of Ms. Taylor, occurred at times when defendant Hewerman's wife and children were located out of. out of state. There's the other. Which would have allowed defendant Heerman unfettered time to execute his plans for Ms. Taylor. Right.

So if you look at Victoria's age and you look at this finding, I mean, I don't have the specifics of how they came to this conclusion, but I believe it. I'm sure it was based on they didn't just make it up. Well, enforcement clearly discovered that at least in the victims that have been charged that have been added to the superseding indictment that the wife, Assa, and the children, the two children were out of state. They weren't even in town. So that doesn't necessarily mean, that doesn't definitively mean that Victoria couldn't have been a co-conspirator, sir, co-conspirator at some level, but it's not looking strong. Right. So, I mean, to come into a

press conference with this kind of information and not consider, this basic evidence about her age and law enforcement's findings and to just say, hey, look, look at this artwork. Right. Doesn't this look a lot like these crimes? I mean, this is showmanship. Yeah. This is showmanship.

You know, and I mean, I don't know. I don't want to speculate why he's doing this. Maybe there's some attention seeking going on here. I don't know for sure. But, you know, it does seem, it does feel like it's a little reckless given the situation. And, you know, you and I know as well as anyone that podcast people are much maligned, and this isn't going to help. This isn't going to help kind of feed the frenzy of conspiracies and speculation on Hewerman.

Yeah. On the other hand, I will say this in thinking about this case and this family culture, one thing, this is a quote from John Ray that I completely agree with, and I think this is definitely in the ballpark. He said, quote, this is. from the press conference, Victoria was, quote, brought up in the sickness. Right?

Absolutely. Yep. And that, if you're brought up in the sickness, that's a great quote. John, if you're brought up in the sickness, this is the kind of art you might gravitate towards. That doesn't mean that you're involved in the crime. It just means you have a father who's really troubled and has a lot of problems and probably brings a lot of darkness and pain into that home.

And she's growing up in that pain. And I think we already know that. I don't know if we needed a press conference to understand that, that she was growing up in a really dysfunctional, painful home, that she probably saw things. And I bring this up because some people have said, well, that wasn't what he was implying. He was implying that, look, she might have seen some stuff.

I mean, that's pretty. Not in 1993. She didn't. Probably not in 2003. No, what I mean is some disturbing things, some disturbing art from her dad or something. No, I understand. Right.

Maybe she saw the room with blood in it, something like that. But I don't, yeah, I don't know. Or something her dad was looking at at the internet. But my point is, if that's true, I think we can all assume that she saw things that were disturbing. She grew up in a sick home. Yeah, exactly. Right.

I mean, so, but. So what's the point of the press conference? Well, exactly. I mean, if, and also, if it's to get Victoria to disclose information, I have to presume that law enforcement did some type of interview with her and Asa. Well, probably repeated interviews to confirm timelines, to confirm alibis, to consider what was going on in the home. And I mean, that doesn't mean that Victoria is going to be honest. She certainly could have seen things that she doesn't want to disclose, no doubt about it.

But on the other hand, law enforcement clearly has experience examining these sorts of things. So I don't know. We will see. Yeah. So, you know, it's, was this a dysfunctional family? Could some of the members at a home known a lot more than they're letting on, particularly Asa, who was involved in a lot of these parties, these swinging parties, and where some of the victims were present? We talked about that. I mean, sure, yeah, she could have known a lot more than she's telling us. And Victoria, maybe she does too. But to John Ray, people ask, well, what's the implications of what you're saying? He said, you know, it's, It's clear. It's not clear. I know. I did not like that answer. No, you're holding a press conference for a very clear reason and you're not telling us what it is. It seems to me what he's trying to implies that the artwork is suggestive of her state of mind, which is suggestive of her behavior. And for those speculating on what he really meant by the press conference, some people are saying,

well, he just meant that she was exposed to things that he could have made that. clear. It was specifically asked of him, why are you holding this press conference? What are you implying? And he said, I think it's clear. It was not clear. And he knew that, in my opinion. Right. And so I think to me, so looking at this artwork, the other problem here is, I mean, yeah, he didn't tie, I don't know, he didn't tie the artwork directly in to the murders, but he certainly implied it. I think there's something that's kind of reckless about implying that as someone who's worked with a lot of victims of crime, and children who have been victims of crime, I see a lot of dark artwork, but that's simply because

the victims are trying to work it out. They're trying to work through their trauma and their pain, and they're trying to put it on paper. So artwork becomes an expression of how they feel and their experience. Artwork becomes cathartic to them. So personally, I kind of resent the fact that John Ray is implying that artwork is a reflection of a disturbed psyche, and that if you have this type of artwork, then clearly you're going to go commit crimes or that it reflects the fact that perhaps you have a criminal mind, whereas in fact, often quite the opposite would be true, that the artwork is a form of self-expression, and it becomes cathartic, not destructive. So, and by the way, this is the same argument that people have about violent video games.

There's competing narratives with violent video games. Do violent video games lead to more violence, or do they help some, in many cases, do they help children and adolescents cope with violence? Do they help them process it? Is it more cathartic? And there's no simple answer to that, by the way. So, but I think here you have, this is one-sided. The implication here is that this art is reflective. It's a direct reflection of a diseased mind, potentially, rather than a reflection of someone who's trying to cope with her traumas and express herself, right? He doesn't say... Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day.

Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the Internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers, spammers, even stalkers. It's why you get endless robocalls and why ads seem to follow you everywhere. That's where ORA comes in. ORA actively removes your data from broker sites and keeps it off. They also instantly alert you if your information shows up in a breach or on the dark web. But ORA goes beyond data protection. With one app, you get a VPN, antivirus, password manager,

spam call protection, dark web monitoring, and even up to $5 million in identity theft insurance, all backed by 24-7 U.S.-based fraud support. Other companies might sell just credit monitoring, or just a VPN. ORA gives you all of it, together, at the same price competitors charge for just one service. Start your free trial today atora.com slash remove. Protect yourself now at aura.com slash remove. Matt. What's one financial lesson you learned the hard way? I'll go first. It's not too late to start saving. Today's episode is sponsored by Acorns. Acorns is a financial wellness app that makes it easy to start saving and investing for your future. You don't need to be an expert. Acorns will recommend a diversified portfolio that matches you and your money goals. You don't need to be rich. Acorns lets you get started with the spare money you have right now. And one of the best things about acorns is they allow you to see projected growth on their web.

website. Simply go online, type in how much money you'd put in and see the potential future balance of your account. Sign up now and join the over 13 million all-time customers who've already saved and invested over $22 billion with Acorns. Head to Acorns.com slash hidden true crime or download the Acorns app to get started. Paid non-client endorsement compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns Tier 1 compensation provided. Investing involves risk, Acorns Advisors, LLC and SEC registered investment advisor. A few important disclosures at acorns.com slash hidden true crime. Hormonal changes are so hard to see the least.

Hot flashes, anyone else. Add in the thousands of hormone disruptors that are in our environment and it is even worse. From our water, food, the air we breathe and the clothes we wear, they are everywhere. But the good news is that when hormone harmony enters the picture, it can help reduce hormonal symptoms in women of all ages. hormone harmony is a supplement that contains science-backed herbal extracts called adaptogens. The best thing about adaptogens, they help the body adapt to any stressors like chaotic

hormonal changes that happen naturally throughout a woman's life. Hormone harmony is actually part of my personal 2024 playbook. Hormone harmony makes no compromises when it comes to quality and it shows. For a limited time, you can get 15% off your entire first order at happy mammoth.com. That's Happy HAPPY. M-A-M-M-M-O-T-H.com, just use the code Hidden True Crime at checkout. That's code Hidden True Crime. Use that with Happy Mammoth.com for 15% off today.

Has losing weight and getting healthier been on your mind lately? Have you heard about groundbreaking GLP-1 treatments like OZMPIC and WeGO? With Effectie, getting access to these powerful medications has never been easier or more affordable. Starting a new medication is always a bit scary when you aren't sure what to expect. And using Effecti makes it so much easier with their hands on support, which gives unlimited access to licensed doctors so you never have to jump through hoops for help with any dosing questions or just other support when you need it.

Effecti uses rigorous testing and their products are backed by research so you can rest assured. Ready to level up your weight loss game? Right now, my listeners can get $50 off of GLP1 weight loss treatments at Effecti.com with code hidden true crime at checkout. That's Effecti. dot com, eF-F-F-E-C-T-Y dot com, and use code hidden true crime to get $50 off your first month of GLP-1 weight loss treatment,

no hassles, no memberships, and no hidden fees. Get started today. Well, that's a question that people are asking here, too, and you're answering it. What does the art mean to you? What would it mean? Because the art is disturbing. Clearly, we had to edit it.

You know, do you think she was looking at that stuff? to maybe try to understand her father, Ray Grinstead asks. So I think this is an explanation that, first of all, we don't, I don't have enough evidence to really draw strong conclusions about this because I don't really know the context of the artwork. I know she was putting some of it on social media, but let's just say for the sake of argument that she doesn't know, let's say she doesn't know about the crimes. Then we can infer, based on what we know about Rex Heerman, we can infer that this is a household that was probably fairly isolated from others in the community, that there's probably

some depression in this home. There's probably a lot of anger. It may not be expressed directly. So maybe you have kind of repressed anger here in this house. You have kind of a gloomy atmosphere. As John Ray himself pointed out, this home is depressing. It's dark. It's old. It needs repairs. John Ray says, hey, look at that house. Doesn't that reflect these people's personalities? didn't use that term exactly. But I mean, his point is, why are they still living here if they're not dark people? Number one, they probably can't afford somewhere else, but put that aside, and they don't want to move. Putting that aside, I think you have a house here that's, let's say, gloomy, that's a little dark, right? There's probably some antisocial elements in this

home. Their father is probably angry a lot. We know that he was involved in a lot of architecture projects that he was trying to hold up or he was trying to cancel them. And so his, their father, Rex, was an angry guy. He wasn't getting the kind of attention he wanted in the architectural community. He wasn't engaged in projects that he believed he deserved. And he was angry. So he was he was torpedoing a lot of other architects and their projects. And he was making people mad. And so there's this very oppositional kind of antisocial quality to Rex. He's taking that home. So this is a house that has a propensity, let's say this is a house that has a propensity for dark themes and dark subjects. And so it's within that context, it makes sense to

me that Victoria would gravitate towards this type of art. This was not a happy go, lucky family that lived in a home that was illuminated with a million lights and had a lot of glass windows. This was not that family. Right. That's not to say, by the way, a home that's all glass wouldn't have depression. But the point is that within that, if that's the context, she doesn't need to know about these crimes. She just needs to be in this dysfunctional family to really gravitate towards this type of art. And in that sense, the art is an attempt for her to make sense of her experience. It's an attempt for her to make sense of her trauma. It's her attempt to make sense of a father who's angry all the time, who's depressed, who's not living

his best life to quote one of our favorite internet personalities. He says that. He means a child, an internet personality for children because our son watches. Our son watches a show on YouTube he loves. And one of the lines the YouTuber always uses that, you know, the people are living their best lives. Rex Humbrim was not living his best life. No.

So it's within that context of a very dysfunctional family that, Victoria Humorin is gravitating towards this type of art. So in that sense, I think this art becomes an expression of the home. It becomes a reflection of potentially her depression and her anger. It's an attempt for her to cope with the dysfunction in this home and the trauma that her dad's experiencing that she probably feels. The shame that her dad is bringing home, that she probably feels. There's something called emotional contagion,

which is that when somebody has a deep, strong emotion, oftentimes we'll feel that. Anybody with any type of empathy or emotional intelligence will often experience that emotion, we'll know that emotion. And perhaps in this type of home, with this type of shame and anger and depression, that Rex wasn't open about that, but it could still be felt. And so Victoria is trying to process that and make sense of it. And I think, so I think this art is a reflection of those qualities. To go to this art is a direct reflection.

It has a direct relationship to her involvement in sadistic crimes. That's a bridge too far for me. So that, to me, is irresponsible. And that's essentially what John's Ray is doing. So I'm giving you the other perspective tonight, which is, let's consider this a dysfunctional home. and let's consider most likely that this art is a reflection of that and not a reflection of someone who is a criminal mastermind that's working with her father to commit all types of homicides. Now, having said that, I do want, there is a caveat, and it's unlikely.

I think it's extremely unlikely, but it's possible that she, like her mother, that she may know more than she's letting on. I do, that's possible. It's possible. We don't know. We don't know. It's possible. I think law enforcement needs to investigate it. I think they need to rule it out. I think the fact that they have considered the fact that all these victims are out of state at the times of the crimes. And if you look at her age during the times of these crimes, it doesn't add up. The evidence doesn't seem to point in that direction. But I don't know. Who knows?

It's not, it wouldn't be unheard of to imagine that maybe Victoria wanders. Maybe she's 15 years old. and she wanders into the, into what's call it the secret room, the torture room where presumably some of these crimes were committed. And she catches her dad doing something horrible. Maybe in that moment she starts asking questions. Maybe her dad pulls her in to some of this darkness, to some of these crimes.

I don't know. That's not unthinkable. I don't believe that happened, but that's not to say it couldn't have happened. Right. Thank you. And there's a lot more to learn. One of the other things, by the way, that John Ray said, was he said, quote, he's talking about Victoria, her true self is a very different self, unquote.

So again, the implications of that are that her true self is this dark self, this criminal self, right? I mean, why is he doing that? There's no evidence of that that we have so far. So, I mean, he's vilifying her by just implying things. Yeah. So her true self is a different self. So he's implying that her true self is this demonic, apparently, demonic, angry, potentially oppositional self that's involved in these crimes. I mean, why would you say that? He doesn't know her true self. He's also implying that

the artwork she's displayed is a reflection of her true self, when in fact, this artwork is probably an attempt, like I said, it's in her attempt to make sense of a really dysfunctional home. And by the way, I see this a lot in these types of homes, that children will, they'll do their own drawings, they'll create art that has this kind of dark quality to it because they're trying to work through their depression. They're trying to express themselves. They're trying to express their feelings. They're trying to, they're depressed. They can't tell you that. So art becomes the means through which they express themselves. That's, I think, more than likely that's what this is.

This is not a criminal mastermind at the age of 13 is going to her dad and said, hey, can you go kill some people so I can eat the dead bodies? No, I don't think it's that. So that's why I take on the Victoria situation. I think that it's not unlike the press conference that Assis attorney held on her behalf. Well, it is unlike it in the sense that it's not really dramatic,

But my point is that, and by the way, she spoke up. I mean, Asa didn't speak up, but her attorney spoke up and said that this was careless and unnecessary. And it probably was. But so, but having said that, I mean, there still is this little bit of mystique here. Like there's this, right? There's this uncertainty. I mean, Asa was in these swinging parties where victims were present. That doesn't, you know, that doesn't look great.

And in a home, here's my argument for why. Victoria might be involved, that this is a home, this is a home without boundaries. This is a home without limits. This is a home with the depraved, sexual, sadistic, alleged killer. And so when you live in a home that lacks any boundaries and potentially any boundaries around sexual themes or discipline, that's a problem. That means, you know, and by the way, and so Rex Hellerman, a lot of the, we guess, there's words we can't use here. So a lot of the material, let's call it child exploitative material that

was found and there were thousands of images clearly indicate that Rex Hellerman had some issues around that, that Rex Heerman had an attraction not only to violence and to some of those depraved themes you can imagine, but to children. And so given that knowledge and given the fact that, you know, they have these really wild parties and kind of anything goes parties with drugs and sex and picking up with your turn down right right the lack of boundaries and around everything sexual and everything to do with discipline you know it does raise questions right that rex humerman is someone who is it's possible that he is interested he will transgress all normal, social and sexual boundaries.

Correct. And that could be, that means children, men, women, animals, you name it. Right. And so, and in that context, it's within that context that's something like that John Ray may have a point. But again, if I had to put, if I had to sign probabilities to it, I think the probability that she's correctly involved is probably fairly low. but given what I just pointed out about the lack of boundaries,

the attractions here, the probably a lot of the antisocial qualities that Rex Herman had, there would definitely be concerns. So this isn't completely out of the question. No, no. And we can speculate forever and we can question what Victoria's up. But I think we all did before the press conference too, right? What would it be like?

to be the daughter of Rex Ehrman. I think we were speculating before this press conference. Yeah, absolutely. And so maybe, you know, so does it, does this deserve some further investigation? Does it warrant a deeper look? Yeah, probably. And if that's what John raised up to and what he's after, I mean, okay. But I think it could have been done a less, you know, a little less dramatically than he did it,

calling this press conference and, you know, kind of being really animated and theatrical. I don't think that's going to help matters. It's going to fuel a lot of speculation on, you know, podcasts and conspiracies and all that kind of stuff. So in that sense, you know, he's turning the heat up rather than down. But, okay, if his goal is to get law enforcement to look deeper at Victoria, all right. I mean, I guess that couldn't hurt anything. I mean, it might it might traumatize her more depending on how they do it.

But because he's been sizing up, Victoria, can we discuss something John Ray was wearing and maybe you can help us analyze? Aaron Brown is saying that John Ray was wearing a velvet scrunchy in his hair. And this is true. You know, John, knowing John probably didn't even notice this and you're probably learning about this for the first time. Am I right? John? I'm sorry, but I missed that. So yeah, I'm normally.

I try to be observant, but can you show me? I will show you. Yes. here we go. I'll just pull it back up here and just long enough for us to see. So right there. Do you see it? Yeah. Got a scrunching his hair. I kind of liked it. I'll be honest. But, you know, I'm weird that way. I don't know if I'd want you to wear one, John, but, you know, there you go. A little scrunchy. So what's the meaning? So Aaron's doing some real, you know, sleuthing here.

She's really going deep with this. It's not just Aaron. Maybe I should let you know. Every woman noticed. Yeah, I didn't catch that. I guess I was looking. Very Dr. John of you not to catch. I thought it was just very New Yorker and eccentric and kind of cool. But there you go.

Hey, we all like sponges. I'm wearing one now. There's mine. Does it give them more or less credibility? I think it depends on who you ask. For me, you kind of gave him more. I was like, gives him more.

I'm going to listen to John Ray because that's cool. But I would assume that most people would disagree with me. I think overall, a lot of it, yeah, see, I was with C. Taylor. I liked a scrunchy. Overall, I would say in general over the worldwide web, it was a no. But I agree with C. Taylor. Kind of like, okay.

I'm going to weigh in on the scrunchy. And that might take. on that is so if I start off with the premise that there's a lot of showmanship going on here, then that's consistent with the showmanship. There you go. I knew you'd have something to say about it. This is a guy who's on stage trying to sell us something. So it may not have been snake oil, but you need a scrunchy.

If you're going to really, really truly sell snake oil, I think you need a scrunchy. So there you go. Well, there you go. I knew it has something to say about it. Something to say about it. Right. Velvet nonetheless. Remind me if I'm trying to sell something to wear this to put the scrunchy on.

Yeah. And it's true. Velvet scrunchies, Rebecca, are kind of like goth. I agree. I mean, I was a 90s teenager. They totally were. All right. Moving on.

We have a lot to still talk about a lot because what came out with the additional charges with some very, very shocking evidence. So let's get into this. Let's get into the new charges with the two new victims. So for those who haven't looked at this, there's a part of this document that has to do with digital evidence. And it's the second half.

It begins on page 20, 21. And when police, when law enforcement did a search of Hewerman's home, they found 350 devices. Gosh. Some of the things they found were, I mentioned some earlier. So initially when they obtained some of his computers, they found a lot of illicit material, illegal material that had to do with children. I think I mentioned that earlier. But in these new devices, they uncovered a collection of torture and violent scenes.

and I mean really violent and really sadistic. They found many, many images, those images dated back to 1994. It's interesting to think that his crimes began approximately 1993-ish, maybe a little before then. So it's interesting that a lot of this material that they found coincided with the origins, potentially the origins of his crimes.

And so it's not hard to imagine that a lot of this material fueled his violent fantasies, and it fueled his sadistic fantasies. And so you can see how not only was Rex Uriman having fantasies about torturing and sadistic crimes, but he then began to seek out material to support those fantasies. And you can see how those fantasies escalated and really began to dominate his life over time. So I think one of the two interesting components to sum of this material are, number one, the nature of it and how violent it is. And number two, when law enforcement discovers that he begins watching and saving this material, which is 1994. And so, again, his crimes roughly start occurring in early 90s.

And so it's interesting to me that those two kind of dovetail and go together. They also found a Microsoft Word document from roughly 2000-ish, and Rex Hulerman believed that he had deleted it. And it was so they found it in what's called unallocated space on his computer, meaning that when you delete something, and Rex Hulman apparently actually used special software that he thought would eliminate this file. But as I've learned from working with law enforcement over many years, that when you think you've deleted, in something, you probably haven't. That there are what they call ghost copies of a lot of files that they can find in this type of unallocated space.

And that's exactly what they did. So they found this document, which is pretty remarkable. The law enforcement called, they called a quote a planning document. And the term they used was that this was a blueprint. So this is a planning document for his kills and essentially a blueprint for murder. And, you know, to, this has got to be a serial killer's worst nightmare is to have a file on their computer that essentially maps out how many of these murders occurred, what some of the issues were, what he was looking for, some of the supplies he used. There's a number of, there's four columns. And the first column he calls problems.

So he identifies something around 20 problems. Some of the problems are DNA, tire marks, bloodstains, fingerprints. It goes on and on. If you haven't had a chance to look at this, please take a look at it. It's crazy. This planning document, this blueprint. Yeah. Some of the supplies.

So he identifies all these problems, and then he has supplies that he needs to address those problems. Those supplies include booties, acid, police scanner, rope, cord, a saw, cutting tools, hairnet. photo film, right? Like this is, this is someone who's, we know that Rex Hurerman is very meticulous. Arguably, I've said this before, that I think he has a lot of obsessive qualities. I can't diagnose. I wouldn't go so far as to diagnose him, but certainly this is someone who seems quite obsessive. And a lot of people, by the, if you listen to our original podcast on Rex Herman, we talked about neighbors and friends and cutwork colleagues that talked about this quality

and Rex Heerman, that he was extremely meticulous and focused on details, and this would be consistent. This planning document would be very consistent with someone who has kind of those obsessive qualities. The fourth column is identified as DS. Law enforcement was able to figure out that that means dump site. So under his DS column, he has Mill Road. DS1, dump site number one, mill road. one of the victims was found in that area off of Mill Road.

They mentioned that in their analysis, that what could be more damning than that? The final column, TRG stands for Target. So one of the things he mentions there is small is good, that he's looking for victims, apparently, that are petite for whatever reason. Some of it, I'm sure, has to do with when I read that, when law enforcement reads that, they think, oh, small is good in the sense that it's easier to dispose of the body that's smaller. It's easier to carry. It's easier, right? That's a law enforcement take. My take on small is good goes back to the exploitative material we talked about. That I think that Rex Humerman was trying

to find small victims, petite victims, because they reminded him of children. And in fact, we know, well, there's a victim that has not been identified as one of his victims, but we'll get into that later, but that victim certainly fits that type of, all of his victims fit that category, I think, that their bodies are in some sense more similar to their, because they're so petite, potentially to children than adults. Yeah. We'll leave it at that. Yeah, let's leave it at that. What else did we learn from, from this evidence, from this, this blueprint, that it appears that the homicides occurred in the residence and then the bodies were moved to the dump sites. So the fact that he's identifying dump sites indicates that he uses a word here under notes.

He wanted to, let me find it. He says, okay, he's got a section called Things to Remember. He wanted, quote, more playtime. Think about that. He wanted more playtime, meaning that. That's one of the most disturbing things for me. Okay, go ahead. Sorry.

Yeah, he wants to take the victims to his home, which by the way is presumably why he wants his wife and children out of the house. So he wants to take his victims to the home. And that would be evidence, by the way, that would support the idea that Victoria was not involved because he wants, quote, more playtime. He wants more time, essentially, to engage in torture and sadistic activities with the victims. But he needs them in his house to do that. So presumably he's taking them to this dungeon, and then after he engages in this playtime, he's moving them to the dump sites. It also gives him more time to dismember the bodies. It gives him more time to clean up, right?

There's a lot of things that he's trying to accomplish by committing these crimes in his home. Given it's interesting because I don't think that, I don't think it would have been possible for him to commit these types of crimes outside. the house and to meet his goals or to achieve his goals of, you know, hedonistic, right, hedonistic pleasure from these crimes. Yes. So let's get a little bit more into these, to these notes or this blueprint. He, under the notes, a couple of things that really stood out to me under the notes, he says one of his lines is, look at the painting, what, why, and who.

under that he says organized versus disorganized and then he refers to some pages in a book and one of the pages is page 175 where he talks about mutilation and disorganized so the book it turns out law enforcement was able to identify the book as mind hunter by john douglas which is a classic work from 1996 where for those of you who have seen the netflix series which is based on the book. It's about John Douglas's involvement in an FBI behavioral analysis division in the, I believe 70s, which is when they started it. He was one of the pioneers in that group of FBI members, and the book is the result of his experiences developing that unit. And so one of the things they were trying to do was they were trying to go interview, or one of the things they did was they interviewed serial killers, and they were trying to put together profiles of serial killers and identify if there were commonalities and certain facets of serial killers that could help law enforcement identify future serial killers. So Rex Hulerman has this book. He's read this book,

and he's making some notes. In his notes on his document, he's making notes about the Douglas book. And so one of the most fascinating things about this document to me is this whole idea, of organized versus disorganized. So Douglas, which by the way has been disputed more released, like back in the 70s when these ideas were being developed, this made a lot of sense that they were, when they went, when law enforcement entered a crime scene, they were trying to look and see, was it, was the crime scene neat and tidy? Was it, did it look like there was premeditation and planning?

Or was it more, was the crime scene a mass looked like more impulsive? more like a crime of passion. And so organized killers were engaged in more premeditation and planning and disorganized killers tended to be more impulsive. And what's fascinating about this to me is that nobody, no serial killer, very few serial killers I've ever seen or studied, are as organized as Rex Heuerman. And the reason why Rex Heurman is so interested in this is because he's trying to present these victims and the crime scene, as being disorganized. What he's taking away from Douglas' book is that there's certain elements of disorganization that the FBI is looking for, and Hewerman is trying to duplicate those. So this is a way for Heuerman to engage in subterfuge. He's actually trying to throw off law enforcement by making it

look like these were impulsive kind of crimes of passion-type crimes. He's trying to make these look disorganized, when in fact, obviously, of course, they're extremely organized, that Heurman knows exactly the target, exactly the victims, exactly how he's going to kill him, exactly where, when, how he's going to kill his victims. And yet, for example, one of the elements of the disorganized crime is slashing someone's neck. And he's using some of those elements of disorganization to make it look like his crimes are disorganized. So I thought that was really, really interesting. The other thing is that John Douglas talks about this idea of murder as a type of painting. So John Douglas is interested in this idea. He treats serial killers like artists

of a sort. And so does Hewerman. So Heurman, that resonates with Heurman. Heurman says he wants to look at the painting. What, why, and who? He's using John Douglas's language. But I think it's fascinating because Hewerman's an architect, right? Hewerman is potentially interested in murder as a type of artwork. To him, this artistic dimension to this, not just the planning, but the way he's treating victims in his mind's eye, I think. And this, by the way, reminds me of Dexter, too. For those of you who are familiar with the show Dexter, there's a very Dexter. there's a very Dexter-esque quality to this.

I was wondering you were going to bring him up. Yeah, I agree. Not just the planning, but sort of this aesthetic artistic dimension where one of the things in Dexter is, Dexter is a blood spatter analyst, and he goes into his lab, and he creates these blood spatter exhibits. So he's trying to duplicate them from crime scenes.

But he talks about, Dexter talks about how, when he does this, they're almost artistic. Dexter doesn't say this, I'm saying this, but they kind of remind me of like a Jackson Pollock-type painting, right? The splatter and the, like, and Dexter is not unaware of that. And I think Hellerman's not unaware of that, too, that there's something in Heurman's mind that's, I don't know how else to put this. I mean, I know this is going to sound strange, but there's something,

this isn't just for humor. This isn't just about torture and sadism and hedonism, and it is about that. But I think it's also, there's also something in here that's what I would say, aesthetic, that he's trying to put these elements together into kind of this masterpiece for himself, this artistic composure. I mentioned our last tournament show about the movie by Lars Van Trin. about the house that Jack built and how at the end of that movie,

the serial killer that's represented in that movie actually builds this house of dead bodies and thereby making murder sort of this artistic creation, right? And I think many serial killers, and Douglas understood that. Many serial killers, they tried to do that

in the sense that there's, I think, there's almost this... Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the Internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers, spammers, even stalkers. It's why you get endless robocalls

and why ads seem to follow you everywhere. That's where ORA comes in. Ora actively removes your data from broker sites and keeps it off. They also instantly alert you if your information shows up in a breach or on the dark web. But ORA goes beyond data protection. With one app, You get a VPN, antivirus, password manager, spam call protection, dark web monitoring, and even up to $5 million in identity theft insurance, all backed by 24-7 U.S.-based fraud support. Other companies might sell just credit monitoring, or just a VPN. ORA gives you all of it, together, at the same price competitors charge for just one service. Start your free trial today atora.com slash remove. Protect yourself now atora.com slash remove.

Hunting of death, there's this taunting of mortality for serial killers. They have this power over death. They're taking lives. There's this godlike quality. So, you know, right, if you think of a deity, you think, I do. I think of a deity as creating worlds, right? And the house the jack belt, that's precisely what he's trying to do. And I think Heurman is kind of doing, as an architect,

Heurman sees himself as a creator, even though he's kind of a, failed creator, he's getting some vindication for that through these murders. He's taunting these victims, and he's kind of, he's taunting death to some degree too, and he's trying to create kind of these compositions of his victims. And he says it here, this idea of looking at the painting, I think, is really interesting, because I think you have that element here with Rex Hellerman. And as Douglas pointed out, you have that element with a lot of serial killers. It's more than just about harming human beings. I mean, that's obviously part of it, but it goes deeper than that. Let's look at a few other elements of the evidence they found in his blueprint for murder.

One of the things he says is he wants to remove the marks from the victims. He says, quote, remove marks from torture. So he's telling us here quite clearly that this is about torture. I just said it was about more than torture, and I believe it is, but it's also about torture. So there's something in here clearly. I speculated early on about the sadistic components of these crimes. And here are humans telling us that he's completely invested in torture. Under a section he calls Things to Remember, he says, there's a quote, get sleep before hunt. Get sleep before hunt. So, you know, it's very rare that you're going to see a serial kill refer to their crimes as hunting. Right. Interesting.

So here you have Heerman writing notes to himself using the word hunt. That's amazing, right? This guy is like a pure predator. Right. He even knows he's hunting. He knows he's hunting. To use the word hunt is so unusual. And here you've got a guy saying he's hunting. And that by the way, I think, has something to do with that artistic dimension I brought up to that one of the reason presumably that human beings hunt is not just to obtain food, but there's, kind of a thrill involved. There's a gamesmanship quality, and you have that with Hewerman, that Hewerman's going to show, he's going to exert his dominance and he's going to show you that not only is the smartest one in the room, but he's going to win these games. Yeah. And so you have that quality

that this hunting thing is just unbelievable. So he's using that language to describe himself. He sees himself as a pure predator. One of the other things he uses the word next time several times in this document. So he's acknowledging in this document that, and by the way, this document was, they showed that this document was accessed directly by him. They can tie it into him. They can show that he was the one who created this document and utilized this document over a period of several years. So he uses the term next time. Here's what he says. This is from the Things to Remember section, quote, hit harder. Too many hits.

to take down, consider a hit to the face or neck next time for takedown. First of all, he's talking about like this horrendous violence in a matter of fact way. Like, I'm just going to, you know, I didn't hit him hard enough. So next time I want to hit to the face or the neck so hard that they fall down right away instantaneously. But he's saying, so he's, the other thing that's interesting here is he's learning from his crimes. He's pointing out some of his mistakes and he's telling us how he's going to improve. And he's making, he has to make that note to himself. So he's, he's also telling us that obviously that this is, this isn't the first time he's done it, that there's a next time and that he's learning. And so that's, that was interesting to me.

I already mentioned one of the next notes is this idea of more playtime. He says, quote, more sleep and noise control equals more playtime. So apparently he needs more sleep so that he gets, I don't know how long he's torturing these victims, but this sounds pretty horrendous. He needs to be better rested and he needs to control the noise around the house so that he can have more play time. It's crazy.

And then in the final section, he's got a section called take down slash pickup. He goes back to the word hunt. He says hunt too long, seen in area too long. So if he hunts too long, then he could be seen.

So he wants to limit the time of his hunt. So even his hunt has, he's got a clear period of time in his mind when he wants to punt. And then if he exceeds that time, he has to leave because then he'll be, he recognizes that he can be seen. So those, those were kind of my, those are sort of the interesting elements of the document, I think, that stood out to me. To say, oh, well, that was a lot.

Okay. A blueprint from an actual architect. I mean, a literal architect with a literal blueprint to his crime. I'll bring up a few of the comments here and some of the questions. For those wondering, people are asking where they can read this, we have the documents on our Patreon account, patreon.com slash hidden true crime, which is where we are so grateful.

So many of our gems do support us there. And we have many FOIA documents and arrest documents, and we put them there and they are there now. Questions? Lolo asks, isn't that what all serial killers do? advance in progress with each crime, but is it just new because we are seeing his notes? I mean, they don't always make notes like that, or is that not the case? I don't, I think a lot, if you think of somebody like Ted Bundy, Ted Bundy was probably a

combination of organized and disorganized, but there were a lot of crimes that Bundy committed that were completely impulsive, or maybe not completely, but were much more disorganized than Hewerman. So you wouldn't expect to see these types of notes for somebody like Bundy, for example. And there's something really methodical about Hewerman that's a little unusual. Even this idea of like hunting in a certain period of time, you know, whatever, we don't know what that time is. But I think these notes are really frightening in a way. You know what? It reminds me a little bit of Israel Keyes in the sense that he's also read John Douglas. You know, I love John Douglas's work. But,

I'm pretty sure that I don't know John Douglas, but I'm pretty sure that John Douglas would be horrified by the fact that he's also teaching serial killers. I mean, he can't control it, but the serial killers really find his work to be fascinating and they learned from it. And so, but Israel Keys was similar. Israel Keys was very familiar with John Douglas's work. He was also reading a lot of other crime. Israel Keys was reading a lot of other true crime books. he was interested in Ted Bundy. He studied a lot of Ted Bundy's crimes, and he did that so he can improve on Bundy's impulsiveness. So Israel Keys was also extraordinarily meticulous, and his crimes were very well planned to the point where he would put kill kits in certain parts of the country where he planned on committing crimes, and he would leave those kits there for years until he felt the timing was right.

So you have kind of this, the term that law enforcement uses in the document, is that you have, they call it self-education and homework. And I think serial killers that that kind of invest in this self-education are really fascinating. And Coburger, Brian Coburger, by the way, would be similar in the sense that he was getting a doctorate in criminal justice and he was taking courses where he was learning about essentially how to get away with crime. And so I think it's fascinating to look at the small handful of serial killers that, really want to understand their craft and they take notes and they learn from their experiences and they improve and that you know which is frightening i think the keys made some mistakes at the

end otherwise he would have probably been the most prolific serial killer of all time but hewerman heurman is doing something similar and and so you know a lot of these guys a lot of these serial killers are not this methodical many of them are but a lot aren't people were bringing up Israel keys. So thank you for addressing that. People are also bringing up Dexter. Pointing out, it is interesting that Dexter, that Rex predated Dexter.

Dexter came after the word document was created. I find that interesting, you know, it shows you what a good job I think they did on Dexter. No, I know. Yeah, no, Dexter. Dexter was actually based upon, supposedly Dexter was based upon a conglomerate, a group of serial killers.

he was sort of a combined accumulation of different serial killers. But yeah, a very interesting series, very well written with the twist. And one of the things I love about the Dexter shows was the fact that Dexter was killing other serial killers. So in many ways, Dexter was a vigilante serial killer who kind of elicited, for me at least, or from many viewers, I think he elicited a certain amount of empathy because you kind of, Even though he was a serial killer, you know, he was killing bad guys. And so that was a really fascinating twist because I think the goal there was to really kind of create this mixed emotion with Dexter about how can you pull for a serial killer. Right.

Many people are asking about his home life. And I want everybody to know that we have a full Heerman playlist. for those that are listening to this on our podcast, we have not put all of our Hureman episodes on our podcast. We are now putting everything on our podcast. We recommend everyone subscribing to our podcast, but for those listening to this on our podcast, more is coming.

And we do talk about some of his childhood there. I want to address Devin really quickly. She said, when Heerman is reviewing the material, it's a clue to his crimes, but not necessarily when his daughter, use the same type of material. I think what we're saying is we know a lot more evidence when I, well, why don't you answer that?

We know a lot more evidence when it comes to the experiment. We know what he's charged for. So we're addressing what that material means when it comes to his crime. But do you want to address that, John? Yeah, I mean, first of all, the drawings that the daughter is showing or displaying on our social media are imaginative, whereas the material, that Hewerman is reviewing are real. And so, yes, of course, there's, I mean, right away, that's like the difference between.

So if somebody plays the video game Halo, if a young adult plays the video game Halo, there's a big difference between engaging in combat in a game and engaging combat on the real battlefield. So, I mean, they're completely different experiences. Also, it's not illegal to, it's illegal to utilize some of the, material that Rex Huberman was, and it's not illegal to observe imaginative materials. So, I mean, I get a part of the argument there, I think, is whether it's real or an imaginative, couldn't have the same outcome.

I mean, yeah, sure, it could, depending on the person. But I think that, I think most psychologists would agree that the actual material itself, I don't know what words I can get away with, but probably can't use that term, right? Don't. If you don't know, don't. That there's a reason why the material that Rex Heerman is viewing is considered illegal and why imaginative drawings aren't. Right. One of them directly exploits people.

One of them has victims and the other doesn't. Now, that's not to say that the imaginative material can't have the same impact. It could. There's certain people that are going to watch HALA, and they're going to go out and, you know, potentially commit gun crimes. So some of it depends on the personality of the viewer and some of it depends on the purposes for watching it. So if Victoria is creating this art or using this art

because she's fantasizing about committing crimes, then, yeah, that could be a real problem. Thank you to our moderators tonight. It's been a wild moderating night, I've noticed, and I'm really grateful. Thank you, Steph B, for posting the link to our Rex Heerman playlist. I want to, I just, somebody asked about his past.

I would refer people to our original Heerman show, but I do want to read, this is from an article in the New York Times called In High School, Gilgo Beach suspect was an angry loaner, schoolmates say. This is from July 28, 2003, New York Times, Corey Kilgaman and Nate Schwerber. So these journalists talk to a lot of Hewerman's classmates from the past, and I don't have time to go through all of this. You guys can listen to our old show if you want to learn more about his past. But I do want to read, this is from one of his classmates in high school, Dan Musto is his name.

According to Dan, I'm just going to read this from the quote, according to Dan Musto, it was well known that Heerman had clashed with his father, who was tough on the boy for not being a go-getter. In response, Rex Heurman acted out. He got caught after engaging in a shoplifting, spree, musto said. Quote, why is he getting in trouble? Question mark. He's fighting

with his dad, musto said. It was common knowledge in school. So that's a little glimpse into Ehrman's background, his childhood. He had, his father was a aerospace engineer. His father apparently was very hard on him,

was very critical. He was never good enough for his father. There was a lot of conflict with his father. And I think that was a problematic. In addition to the fact that he was bullied, he was seen as socially awkward, he was a loner, he was socially isolated, he had no friends, he was bullied quite a bit. You know, it's kind of, it's a lot of the same things we see in a lot of criminals and serial colors in particular, which is this ostracism in childhood, this social ostracism and this social

isolation and this really the struggle with social skills and this inability to do developed friendships. But I think a lot of that starts with a very, very, apparently, a very, stern and overbearing father. Quite a few people have asked this now. And if he ever stopped, if Rex Sherman ever stopped his crimes, I mean, I think a lot of that's to be determined, because we're still learning just how many victims and more about Rex Herman. But any thoughts on that in general? Hewerman, there's a lot, it's sort of like, again,

I'm going to draw a parallel here with Israel Keys. There's a lot of missing bodies everywhere that Hewerman visited. And one of those places, by the way, is Las Vegas, that he would come here periodically for weeks at a time. And it's not to say they, I don't believe anyone's connected those crimes to Rex Hewerman yet, but there are a number of sex workers who have disappeared when Heerman has been around. And so I think that raises a lot of questions.

It's the same thing with Israel Keys, that when we now know that when Israel Keys visited a lot of, he would travel a lot, he would go on the road. And when Keys would visit some of these cities, people would just disappear. Looking at the association is one thing. Proving it, of course, is quite different. So I think it's quite possible that there could be a number of crimes that Rex Heerman committed, a number of murders he committed that didn't necessarily occur in New York. And so there's different states. He visited his brother in South Carolina. Same thing.

Virginia. There's a number of states where Hewerman is a suspect and a number of crimes. So I think that it's quite possible, you know, that his crimes in New York are only a small portion of the crimes he committed. Well, Rex want to get credit for all of his crimes. I'm interested about that, too. and I think it's because of his wording hunt. It feels like in some ways,

when you hunt something, you want a trophy. You want to be known. You want credit. Right? And so I wondered about that when it came to that word. I think it's a really good point because one of the books. So in this document,

the law enforcement refers to another John Douglas book. John Douglas wrote a book called The Cases that Haunt up. I don't remember exactly when that was published. I think it was like around 2000-ish. And Hewerman had that book. And I think that's interesting. To me, that's interesting because I do think when I saw that, my first thought was Rex Heerman wants to be one of the cases that haunts him, that haunts us.

That I think Hewerman struggled with that. I think he did want recognition. I think on the one hand he didn't want to get caught, but he wanted to be an infamous serial killer like Jack the Ripper. who was never caught and that those cases haunted us, you know, the general public community. And so the fact that John Douglas wrote a book about crimes that were never solved or that continued to haunt us, I think that shows that Brextonerman was very much interested in fame to some degree, but fame behind the curtain. He didn't want the, you know, he didn't want to be caught,

but he didn't want fame. Anything else? Yeah, I do have a final thought. And I think one of the things that's interesting about Rex Huberman is, or let me back up a little bit, that Thomas Harris, who is famous for Silence of the Lambs and Hannibal Lecter, creating Hannibal Lecter, who's also this fictional character. Harris, I believe, published Silence of the Lambs in like 1988. And I think that was, by the way, that was one of the inspirations for John Douglas to talk about these serial killers as artists of sorts, because Hannibal Lecter is kind of the consummate, the quintessential example of a serial killer.

He's fictional, of course, but the quintessential example of a serial killer who is this food artist, that he creates these elaborate, exquisite dishes, he's well read, he's refined, he loves classical music, right? Hannibal Lecter is sort of this consummate example of someone who,

He's a, he's a, he's a psychiatrist who works with some really disturbed people. He's an example, the quintessential example of someone who's very cultured and refined and artistic, right? In many ways, I kind of see Hannibal Lecter as at the highest level, kind of representative potentially of the best of humanity, right? That he's capable of doing a lot of good in his best moments. He's capable of helping people. He's capable of creating these kind of artistic dishes that people can enjoy and eat with them, right?

And yet, of course, he's Hannibal Lecter. So he's Hannibal the Cannibal. He's got this really destructive dark side. And so beneath all of that, beneath that facade and the culture and education and the artistic side, he's really driven to some degree by these base instincts, by this kind of barbarism, right? That he has this desire, this impulse to murder, and he can't stop himself from doing that. And I think that when I initially thought of human, and I read this notion of painting that Douglas talks about, the murderers and art, I was led instantly to this idea of

the contradictory nature of human beings. you know, this Freudian idea of the Freud talked about what he called the super ego, which is roughly related to culture and kind of morality that we have, we develop a conscience and we operate in a community and we're able to kind of create these wonderful cultural artistic products. But yet we also have what Freud called the id, which is pure instinct. It's kind of our base animalistic nature, right? So I think, I think with human and with Hannibal Lecter, and you kind of see this dual nature, this contradictory nature of human beings. And I think one of the interesting parts about Lecter is there's always this

reminder that below all this facade of refinement and education, there's always operating kind of this potentially, this destructive violence side, this, right? And I think all of us kind of have that to some degree. All of us harbor it. And when I talk about this idea that a better under, I sometimes say a better understanding of crime is a better understanding of ourselves, this is what I mean. That I think the importance of looking at someone like Rex Herman is partly about looking at ourselves and looking at our contradictory nature and looking at the struggle we all have to kind of do good and get along with other people and to be empathic and to contribute to communities and not get so caught up in like our base instincts and our desire, you know, our basest desires that would,

you know, kind of allow us to run over other people or to take advantage of people or to treat people like objects, right? And so, but that's, I think, I guess part of what I'm saying is that Heurman is despicable, but I understand it. Hannibal Lecter's despicable, right? He's a fictional character. But I think Harris's point with Hannibal Lecter, it was to really create this character that embodies the contradictory nature of human beings. And Heurman, I think, and Heurman becomes, in a strange way, this is a strange case where life is stranger than fiction, right? Heurman becomes like the literal representation of what Harris was trying to get across with Hannibal Lecter. And that how, if we don't really kind of understand that contradiction,

we can pull, we can be pulled in a really malignant direction. And so I, I guess sometimes people ask me, well, why are you guys talking about Rex Hurerman? He's horrible. Why would you discuss this guy? And my answer is because there's something we can learn from him, not just avoiding this in the future, not just looking for red flags for somebody like Rex Heerman, but there's something we can all learn about looking at, you know, by examining Rex Heerman about ourselves. And that's why we want to look at it.

Thank you. Dr. John? Yeah, you're welcome. Thank you. Do the books matter? Yes. Do I look more refined? Do I look more cultured with the books behind me tonight?

Yes, if they only knew how many more books you had. Yeah, those are coming soon, by the way. For our members, I'll do a book tour one day. All right. I, again, for the document on Rex Eurman to read it, we have it on Patreon. com, plus you, crime. We appreciate your support there. For those that would like to follow us on Facebook, Facebook,

dot com slash hidden true crime as well as Instagram. Instagram.com slash hidden true crime. We did a great job with our branding slash hidden true crime for most all social media. Thank you everyone. Thank you for your like. Thank you for your subscribing and thank you for the incredible chat that I was distracted by often but for good reasons. It's always so interesting to hear what you all have to say.

And to my better half, always interesting to hear what you have to say. So thank you, Dr. Babe. Thank you. And by the way, yeah, you don't know what I'm going to say before we come on these shows. So these are unscripted. And I really appreciate the fact that you ask great questions and we can have a great dialogue every week in our shows. And we just don't. The way we work is that we kind of go our own ways a lot of times during the week and we're not able to talk about our shows.

And then we come together. And I just totally trust you. I rely on you to lead me in the right direction. and to ask good questions and you do it every week and weekend and week out. And I'm so grateful for that. So thank you. Thank you. I'm grateful for you too, babe. Love you. Love you too. And with that. We'll see you guys. Have a great night. All right. Good night. Good night. Hello, Hidden Jems. It's Lauren with Hidden a True Crime podcast. As a TV reporter, I learned the art of visual storytelling. So if you're like me, you enjoy listening, but also viewing. You can

actually head to our YouTube channel, Hidden True Crime, to watch these interviews. Hit the subscribe button for surprise lives and breaking news. And for exclusive content, things Dr. John and I only dare say behind a paywall, become a Patreon member at patreon.com slash hidden true crime. You'll find bonus episodes, early releases, and insider info. Thank you for your endless support. Summer adventures are better with Minky Couture. From Road, trips to ball games, beach nights to backyard movies. Minky has you covered. Don't miss the everywhere blanket, water resistant, ultra soft, and made for life on the go. Wherever summer takes you, bring comfort along. Minky Couture.com, the original best blanket ever.