Hidden True Crime - IDAHO FOUR: John & Lauren appear on 'Dateline: Killings in a College Town' - Live Commentary Q&A

Episode Date: January 17, 2023

(This episode was previously recorded during a Hidden Hour LIVE SHOW on Hidden True Crime's YouTube page January 13th, 2023. Every Friday night, unless otherwise posted, subscribers/YouTube channel members are able to ask forensic psychologist Dr. John Matthias questions.) Thank you to everyone who tuned into NBC's Dateline 'Killings in a College Town' 2-hour special. Here is our Hidden Hour: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FluY-vgGcFE&t=11s Subscribe for Friday night lives, psychological analysis, and insider interviews for an in depth look at crimes.  Each Friday night we host HIDDEN HOUR, to share our night with our Hidden Gems. Please always check in to see what time our Friday night live is airing. DR. JOHN MATTHIAS is a licensed clinical and forensic psychologist with 30 years’ experience in both clinical and forensic work. He serves as an expert witness for the federal government and has consulted on numerous high-profile cases for District Attorney’s offices and defense attorneys in several states. In the forensic area, Dr. Matthias has developed expertise in personality assessments, hidden behavioral motivations, complex trauma and criminal psychology. In the clinical realm, he has worked with numerous victims. He received his Master’s degree in Marriage, Family and Child counseling, as well his doctorate degree, from the University of Southern California.  Dr. Matthias graduated with honors in philosophy from Princeton University, and he won the prestigious McCosh Thesis prize while there. In high school he graduated valedictorian from a large public high school in Chicago where he was chosen to participate in a ground-breaking valedictory study that continues to this day.  Dr. Matthias has been an adjunct assistant professor in the University of Nevada Las Vegas clinical psychology doctoral program since 2007. He supervises UNLV doctoral students on forensic assessments, clinical case formulation, and various therapeutic approaches to clinical work. Your support helps us produce these podcasts/videos. We have some big plans to explore the true crime terrain in a way that no one else has attempted. HIDDEN: A TRUE CRIME PODCAST is: CRIMINAL PSYCHOLOGY REINVENTED. Join us on a journey into the darkest recesses of the human mind and the unconscious motivations that drive human behaviors in order to understand the world and ourselves.  WEBSITE: https://hiddentruecrime.com/ TO SUPPORT:  https://www.patreon.com/hiddentruecrime https://paypal.me/hiddentruecrime https://cash.app/$hiddenTruecrime Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hello, Hidden Gems, another late night live, but we cannot finish this night without talking to all of you. We apologize for this late live. We know that for those in the United States that are watching Dateline tonight, that ended a couple of hours ago or a few hours ago. Well, on the Pacific coast where we are, it doesn't start until very late, and it just ended about 20 minutes ago. I enjoyed watching Dateline tonight. And by enjoyed, I mean, I appreciated and valued how they were putting the story together. John did not watch Dateline. We've been on Dateline twice now, and you have chosen not to watch either time.

In fairness, I had a little guy to put to bed, so that had a big part in it. But that played a big role in it. Yes, that did have a big part in it that you were, one of us had to watch our son, and he wasn't about to watch that tonight. night. Right. Yeah. That's not, as we say in our household, that's not a wind down show. Right. We do wind down shows at our house and it was definitely not in that wind down category. So I watched it for us tonight. John, I am the messenger here, but it was what we suspected. Very emotional. You know, I feel actually kind of solemn, I think, is the word you could use.

They had Kaylee's parents on there. I was grateful for their voices. We heard from friends. the victims, how this affected those on campus and those close to the victims. And, you know, it was in true Dateline, Keith Morrison, Shane Bishop fashion. It was a very well done production. And you also came away realizing just what a tragedy it is, what it was and is. So that's my takeaway. Let me just run with something you said about how it was solemn and, I think we should begin this show with an acknowledgement of the victims and the victim's family and their pain and how difficult this is for them, I'm sure. So I don't think we should ever overlook that or neglect that fact. And this is about them.

Martha at the beginning, Martha was a friend of the victims. And she told the story. She had been with Zana the night before Zana and Ethan, but she'd spent a lot of time talking to Zana at the Sigma Chi party. early the next morning that same night. They were killed and she said that she was with them and it meant a lot to her. And then the next day she was meeting Hunter, Ethan's brother. And he wasn't showing up for a study session. And then she texted Hunter and said, are you coming?

And he said, no, I think Ethan's dead. And in her shock, she texted Zana, I love you. And then she didn't hear from Zana. And then she learned Zana was dead. her mind went to carbon monoxide, you know, before they found out just how gruesome everything was. And I was hanging on to every word of Martha. I thought her explaining and sharing was so compelling because I just, I can't imagine. And again, to have Kaylee's parents' voices, I want to share one quote from Steve. They were explaining how they found out about the tragedy about their

daughter's death, Kaylee's death. And John and I talk about hope a lot. And so when Keith Morrison asked Steve about what was like learning about Kaylee's death and Maddie, they were close to both the girls, Maddie and Kaylee, because they were childhood friends. He said, that is when you lose all hope. You have a little bit of hope and it smacks you and you have no hope. It was also profound because in our New Year's message this year, we wished for 23 to bring love, hope and justice. you know, hope is such an important thing to have. And I just, there are a lot of those quotes that made things very real.

I can't imagine. John, thank you. I think it's important always to put the victims front and center. You know, if I could talk a little bit about some of my background, I think many people don't probably realize because I don't talk about it that much, but I've worked with victims for many, many years. I did a lot of clinical work at the same time I was doing forensic work. And my primary focus, my emphasis was on victims of trauma and abuse, sexual and violent abuse and domestic violence victims.

And I've worked for many, many years primarily or juggling forensic work with victims. And that's been my main focus. One story that I sometimes tell is when I was out of graduate school, I started working for an agency where I was doing, psychosexual evaluations on sex offenders, and this is an agency that primarily worked with victims of sexual trauma and abuse. And when I got in there, and this was in the 90s, there was a lot of debate about whether this agency should treat sex offenders. And many people that were working with victims felt like, no, we shouldn't do that. That's, that dishonors victims.

We just want to focus on victims. Even though we were doing forensic evaluations of sex offenders, we weren't doing treatment. And there was a big debate in the agency, but in the end, many of us felt that if you didn't work with the offenders, that you were only dealing with one side of the equation. And ultimately, the agency made the decision to also start treating sex offenders because there was a strong belief that you can't stop the intergenerations,

or the generational cycle of abuse unless you work with the other side. I think it's important to acknowledge victims always first and foremost without a question. But the other side of that equation is if you want to prevent this and you want to stop the cycle of abuse and you want to make a difference, I think you have to acknowledge the other side and you have to understand why people do this, even though these offenders are horrendous and they get a lot of attention, I think it's still critical to understand understand them. And, you know, one of the criticisms you and I have seen since the very

beginning of this over two years ago is that we're, you know, and it's not just us. It's true crime in general that one of the constant criticisms is that we're exploiting victims. People that do true crime are exploiting victims and everybody's exploiting victims. And, you know, my response to that is typically there's always another side to a crime. And it's, there's always an offender on the other side of a crime that's harming the victim. And if you don't understand that and you don't stop that and you don't figure out prevention and you don't stop the cycle of violence, which is often the case with sex offenders, oftentimes don't see multiple generations of sexual abuse. And unless you figure out a way to intervene with them, it's going to continue. In that sense, I think that criticism

is a little unfair and as much as difficult as it is sometimes to place the spotlight on the perpetrator, unfortunately, it's important because we need to understand these people and ultimately try to figure out a way to prevent these types of crimes. Nancy H. says that she worked in an adolescent program that had both victim and offenders in the program and Mars down the rabbit hole road the victim offender. Overlap is often something. that happens and people are actually sharing their own stories. This case has brought up and triggered me so much for me. I was lucky enough to survive the violent crime.

My stalker perpetrated against me. And I can't stop replying the attack in my mind. There's so many stories. Yeah, the victims have to be given prominence. But on the other hand, we need to understand the offenders too. I think a lot of my career has been spent trying to figure out how to walk that tightrope. And ultimately, in many ways, a lot of my job has been to make decisions about community placement for offenders. So violent and sexual offenders, should they be readmitted back into the community?

Should they, right? And so believe me, I've lost some sleep making just Lauren can tell you this. I've lost some sleep making decisions that have put people in prison for the rest of their lives. And in Nevada, for example, there's a statute that says that risk assessments, risk assessments take precedence over the judge. So in other words, a psychologist like myself who deems someone to be high risk for reoffence essentially makes the decision to put someone in prison for potentially the rest of their life. So that's not something I signed up for in grad school, believe me. And it's a decision that carries a huge amount of weight. And when I have to make those decisions,

Lauren would tell you that I lose a lot of sleep over that because as bad as some of these criminals are still making the decision to essentially send someone away for the rest of their lives is a very, very serious decision. Yes, he loses a lot of sleep over it. It is a heavy decision. And he does, his evaluations like no one else I've ever seen. And I have seen some other evaluations because I know that you, take the decisions you're making and the conclusions seriously. And if anybody has questions tonight,

we can answer a few questions tonight. I want to point out Tony Fitz. Tony makes a good point. Somebody who suffers abuse, in most cases, the victim does not go on to become an offender. In fact, the numbers are roughly 20, 25%. So the vast majority of victims of abuse do not become abusive. So that's a good point to make. I think it's important to to emphasize that just because someone is traumatized and a victim of abuse, it certainly doesn't mean that they're going to end up becoming an offender. It happens, but the odds are greater, especially with men, with males, that they might become offenders later, but still, roughly 80%, 75, 80% do not go on to offend. I can't believe the incredible survivors we have often on

our channel. And you know what it's interesting about our channel is all no, and gems names. I'll see these YouTube names I recognize and have no idea. And then I, I learn what they've been through. And I just want to say there's so many amazing survivors in chat tonight, particularly. Kay Woodcock also being one of them. And I assume Larry is with her tonight too. I know we were texting earlier. John, there was a question for you earlier about how you keep your head on straight. And I can't find the comment to post it. But we can take a few questions right now. and we're kind of on that topic. People have always been curious of your job, including me.

I mean, I started asking you questions about it on our first date. But how do you keep your head on straight? Because I've asked you this too. We've talked about this plenty. Anything you can share? Higher ground made a comment about that I have a tough gig and I have a huge heart. And thank you very much for that. I think that's the key really is to stay open, to stay compassionate,

to try to keep my heart open. It's hard. You know, I think, I think there's always, there's a price to be paid for what I do for sure. I choose, I choose that. I choose to pay that price. But it's, I think that price is that, you know, I have a long history of depression for many reasons.

I won't get into all of that. But it's week after week to deal with victims and to deal with criminals. It's definitely a glimpse into a different side of, of the human condition that's sometimes hard to see. So I try to look at that side as honestly as possible with as few illusions as I can. And I think maybe that makes it harder. But it's hard. I think I try to find some some healthy outlets. You know, I spend time with my family and I try to get outdoors and do some hiking and outdoor activities when possible. I think that helps me kind of forget a lot of things. But in the end, in the end, I think it's if someone takes,

what I do seriously. I think there's a toll that accrues from doing this. And I'm just being honest about it. So, uh, so I don't know. But I mean, I wouldn't, it's, I feel like I meant to do this. So I wouldn't do anything else. In spite of the, the toll, I think that I love this. I love digging deep into human nature and the human condition. And I tend to be somewhat philosophical by nature. So I think that's another way I deal with it. Instead of sometimes I need to take a step back and just reflect on what the bigger picture is and what that means for all of us. Maybe that's part of my coping too. If I get too wrapped up in the Nusha, if I come out of like an evaluation that's been really intense and difficult and hard to cope with, I think sometimes I'll back up and just

try to think about the larger implications and that helps me too. Yeah, I watch them go. through the process. I've talked about it a little bit before, but you'll go all day and be with them all day and then you'll come back with a lot of empathy and a really heavy heart and then I think you get a little bit angry during the evaluation. The anger comes up more. You have the empathy while you're with them because you are, you have a big heart and you're open to learning about them and so you're become feeling really heavy because you learn a lot about their lives and their past and it's really sad and you get to know them in that moment. And then as you write the report, you get a little bit angrier at what they did and why even then, you know,

you'll go back to rewrite and rewrite and process for so long. Lisa, that's a good question. Has the doctor, Dr. John, have you ever avoided crime scene photos before? He does see him. You've even seen, you've had to see autopsy photos and many things. Let's first start with that. No, the answer is no, that if, Whatever discovery is given to me, I'll examine all of it. My job is to go through all the information I can obtain. The more information, the better. And it's necessary for me to review everything to fully understand what I'm trying to,

what I'm trying to assess. It's ironic because we, Lauren and I found some information on the suspect and these murders. and it was interesting to see some people's reaction to them. There was one person in particular who said that that information is worthless, that it doesn't deserve any credence, right? And I mean, which was a little shocking to me because whatever information I have, if it's relevant and it can help me understand someone better, I want to see it and read it and digest it.

Someone said, I just really want to know why I think that Maddie and Kaylee were the targets, because I didn't mention that in the dateline. I have my reasons, but I think we're joint, aren't we, in believing that? Do you want to answer that? I've speculated from the start before they even had a suspect that it seemed to me like Kaylee probably was the most likely target. Steve, her father, had said that her wounds were more severe. She was the only one of the group that was single. And I don't know what the suspect knew, but she apparently was, she came in for the weekend,

so it seems like maybe the person may have known, maybe the suspect may have known, that she was not going to be around that long. I don't know, but anyway, I think the nature of the injuries, her social status being single, it seems more likely to me that if she had some interaction with the suspect, that if any of them had some interaction with the suspect,

it would have been her. And so she probably would have given the suspect the most opportunities to feel rejected or to feel resentful or whatever he was experiencing. Madison was not single, and I think she was probably in the wrong place at the wrong time. She was in bed with Kaylee.

I mean, of course, I acknowledge that this is just, this is speculation. We don't know for sure. But usually when a victim has more severe injuries, it indicates that the offender had more of a grudge or more resentment against that person. And so I think from a psychological standpoint, you think perhaps this is a target.

If indeed we learn from law enforcement, as we've heard from Kaylee's dad in the past, but if indeed we hear from law enforcement, Kaylee did have worse injuries. Yeah. Right. That's been debated, by the way. That's been disputed. But I think Steve probably wasn't supposed to say that. And he did.

And I mean, I, you know, to me, he's believable. In adding to that, you know, since I was the one that said it in the Dateline, I do want to add the fact that he went to the third floor implies he was going up for their reason. And if he stalked the house 12 times, which I also state during the Dateline episode. And he was as close as he was, John, Steve, Steve says during the daylighting episode that he was so close. They learned us through the PI, their own family PI, as well as investigators that he was so close that he could actually connect or almost did or did connect to the girl's Wi-Fi. So that would mean that he's looking through windows.

He knows where people are sleeping. Those are the reasons just logistically. I think that he was targeting girls on the third floor. But I also think, and I think we might learn this later, that this was someone who did want to commit a mass murder, which we've talked about on certain people. And if that Papa Roger is indeed who we all suspect he might be, that was talked about on Dateline 2,

they didn't go as far as saying that Brian Coburger is Papa Roger, but they did imply that it's possible. And if that is indeed, Brian Koeberger, Papa Roger, like we've sort of always suspected, we'll know soon. We're waiting for law enforcement to confirm that. It could be an ode to Elliot Roger, which is what you've always stated and brought up in profiling. I think there's a lot of arguments you can make that follow the evidence. It's not clear if Kaylee was awake. We know that Zana was awake from the roommate statement.

You know, she thought Kaylee may have been stirring, but it's not clear. What is clear is that Zana was awake. So I think it's a plausible scenario to say that the suspect comes into the second floor. Zana's awake. He sees that she's awake. He knows right away there's a threat there. He doesn't want witnesses. You know, whether he was targeting all four or three, it's too hard.

I don't know. But, I mean, it seems to me like a plausible scenario, knowing that Zana was awake. The killer comes into the second floor. Zana's awake. She's playing with the dog. I know the roommate said that it may have been Kaylee playing with the dog, but she wasn't clear. It seems like in retrospect it was probably Zana playing with the dog.

So the killer sees that Zana's awake. He has a threat. He has someone who's awake. He has a witness. He has to do something about that. So I think he starts there more than likely. I know people have said, I've heard a couple of experts say that they feel like because the sheath was left on the third floor

that he started the murders there, that's possible. But I don't really, he could have lost the sheath in either place. I don't, I think it's equally plausible to say that because Zana's awake, he feels like he has to subdue the threat.

He does that. Ethan's in the wrong place at the wrong time. He then moves to the third floor. He's a little bit tired at this point. One of the victims, or one or both of the victims on the third floor fight back. So that's Kaylee and Maddie. They fight back.

That's how he loses the sheath. I think to go to the conclusion that he loses the sheath because they were the first targets, that doesn't add up to me. To me, it seems like if Zana's awake, that's a problem for him. It seems to me the most logical scenario is he enters on the second floor. He goes to the third floor because those are his real targets. Kaylee may have heard something. Maybe she's stirring.

It's not clear. But she seems to have been awakened at some point. She fights back. the sheath is lost, it's on the bed, he returns downstairs, he sedues Anna because she's awake, he lets the dog go, obviously. He murders Ethan, unfortunately.

He's in the wrong place at the wrong time. Exits the property. Moment in trading states that the assumption is, and it's always been, and this is true that he lost the sheath when he took out the night. But as Regina Marie pointed out, Kaylee could have grabbed the sheath.

That was a great moment from Kaylee's parents tonight where they speculated that maybe that was a moment where Maddie and Kaylee checkmate moment where they knew it was happening, but they grabbed that sheath off of him. You know, we don't know. It seems to me more likely that he loses the sheath during the struggle there. But I have, none of us know. Higher ground had a question about, does this mean he's an insal? I don't know.

You know, when I first started profiling this case way before we knew who the suspect was, I actually brought up Elliot Roger and said that this is someone who has that kind of look and feel. And I wasn't saying that, you know, I didn't know for sure. I can't know if he's an in-cell. But it's certainly someone who seems to have some of those qualities. And that was my point. And, you know, ironically, this account, Papa Roger seems to be a tribute to Elliot Rogers. What an irony, right?

I mean, I didn't intend that, but it turns out that maybe there's a correlation there. It would imply a tribute to Elliot Roger, and clearly that would certainly put him in the camp of in-cell-like thoughts. But, you know, one of our listeners a few weeks ago said, well, we'll probably see a manifesto. Maybe. We know also that he was making derogatory comments to some of his female classmates, and, you know, they weren't a fond of him because of that. We know that he, do we know for sure this guy's an insult? No. I think they're going to find a treasure trove of information in his apartment.

they probably know a lot right now. You know, is there a manifesto? I mean, maybe. I don't know. It's certainly possible. Okay, well, a couple things there. John, you didn't see the dateline. During it, they had a woman named Madison who was a fellow student with him at DeSales.

And one thing that Maddie, Madison, excuse me, Madison, the student mentioned was that he would stare. She stated he had prominent eyes. That was the word you use, the adjective prominent. that she would stare and he wouldn't talk. Now we go to TIGgy and she says, I think in-cell implies that he did not know how to find self-gratification in his interactions with women. He seemed like he wanted to fit in with a stereotype of cute girls.

That would go in that direction with what Madison said on Dateline tonight about him and he would not talk to the girls, but he would stare. And that, by the way, is consistent. So a lot of his old classmates have come out from high school and grad school, both and talked about some of the experience they've had with them. One female student in high school who knew him for several years said that he was very socially awkward and one time he came up to her in the hallway. They hadn't even talked previously, but he approached her in the hallway and he said, hey, you want to hang out like their besties or like they were in some type of relationship.

And they never even, they never had exchanged words at that point. So this is someone that a lot of his old classmates have said he lacked social skills, he didn't read social cues at all, you know, he struggled socially. It's a good point that was being made there. I think he wants to. You know, there's profiles of in cells who are reclusive and they're loners and they're avoided. So if we think about this in terms of like attachment styles, there's an attachment style that is avoided. And those times... Most people don't realize

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ora.com slash remove. Types of attachments are typically people who want no social interaction, and they don't care to have social interaction. They just want to be left alone. And we see that with like school shooters, for example, and those tend to be really angry people. He seems to be angry too, but he does have, he does seem to have this desire to connect to other people,

and that's more of an avoid, that's more of an ambivalent, kind of an anxious ambivalent, style, which means there's more of approach avoidance. He wants to find a way to connect to people, but he doesn't know how. So he approaches them. He gets rejected. Then he pulls back and avoids those relationships. But he keeps going through that cycle of approach avoidance.

So that's more typical of someone who's suffering from anxiety around relationships and poor social skills rather than someone who might be like a true psychopath who's avoidant of all relationships and a total recluse and just wants to be left alone. Yes. Those are very different profiles. What's one financial lesson you learned the hard way? I'll go first. It's not too late to start saving.

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For a limited time, you can get 15% off your entire first order at happy mammoth.com. That's happy H-A-P-P-Y mammoth. M-A-M-M-O-T-H.com. Just use the code, hidden true. crime at checkout. That's code hidden true crime. Use that with happy mammoth.com for 15% off today. So Susan D. Let's talk for a second about Dylan Mortensen, the surviving roommate, who is a big part of the affidavit because she was mentioned a lot in Dateline tonight. Keith Morrison did say it's not clear whether Brian saw Dylan or not. We suspect he did. But maybe he, he did. But maybe you know, it's true. It's not confirmed in the affidavit. Susan D is saying, I'm having such

sympathy, hope, or strength for Dylan, DM. Dayline did name her, her full name and showed her picture, but right, she is known as DM in the affidavit. I'm concerned how she's being treated about the 911 call. She's going to be huge in this trial. I agree. She's huge in the affidavit. So that's the first question. And number two is, do you think DM is being treated unfairly? I know that that we've received a lot of questions about that the first night after the affidavit, and we consciously chose not to address the roommates because it was so triggering. But Dateline did talk a lot about Dylan and Bethany are the names, and Dateline did talk a lot about Dylan tonight because she is a big part of the affidavit.

Do you want to just touch on that? It's hard for me not to have a lot of empathy for Dylan. She, in that moment when the suspect is leaving the home, she crosses pass with him. It's not clear if he saw her or not, but she certainly saw him. And to me, that's a life and death moment. 50-50, whether she lives or dies. Think about that. You know, how people react to that type of situation is going to be very individual and personal.

And we often think that there's only fight or flight, but there's another response typically, and that's called the freeze response, which means that it's very uncommon. It's much less common. Usually it occurs in those types of scenarios where there is a life or death scenario and the people will just freeze. They can faint. They can fall over. Not necessarily, but there's this response that's just essentially an absolute collapse.

And I've actually seen that response. And when working with children, I've done some groups for victims of kids that were victims. And I've had a few kids over the years, children that were young, six, seven, eight years old. where a few of them would start talking about their abuse. And some of the other children in the group were, you know, I thought they were ready for it. And, you know, it's hard sometimes to, when the children start talking about stuff,

it's hard to really shut them down. Children are going to talk when they're going to talk. And so I've seen other children when they've disclosed some trauma. Some of the groups literally froze like statues. And, you know, it's an amazing. process to witness and it's frightening. And so you just don't know how people are going to respond. And to vilify people for a particular response, I think, is problematic.

I want to have empathy for her. I understand people's response that if she reacted faster or called 911, perhaps some of this could have been prevented. Or I don't, you know, it seems to me when she crosses paths with this guy that it's probably too late for the victims, but I try to picture myself in that situation, and I'd like to say that I'd call 911, but who knows for sure? I've never been in that situation. And who knows what she was going through before that? You know, I think she was out, she could have been out partying, so her ability to interpret the environment was probably less, or her reaction time would have been

last. I don't know. I'm sure there were a lot of variables involved. My response is to have empathy for her and to try to understand what she experienced and not necessarily blame her. Thank you, Susan, for your great question. Moonlight View, will we ever know why, Brian did this? Because it is true. Law enforcement doesn't need a motive, you know, for an affidavit. People, you know, some people said that, well, they don't need a motive. I'm like, of course they don't need a motive.

We've been curious. We're trying to understand the crime. So will we ever know why? I think the answer is yes because if and when, you know, I say if this goes to trial, may not go to trial if they have such compelling evidence from his apartment that maybe he confesses or he discloses that he committed the crime, in which case it will probably go to a plea deal, which would be him playing for his life against the death penalty or something like that. So but certainly if this goes to trial, I would expect a lot of the,

the information they collected from his apartment and elsewhere. I think that we'll get closer to motive and to his relationship with the victims. Right now, we're all speculating about that, but I think we might get some answers to some of that from the information that they've found, especially in his apartment. And I think that all allow us to start piecing together a pretty clear psychological profile of the suspect. Cell asks, Dr. John, do you also work with families of perpetrators? If yes, what do they go through? That's probably a whole episode on its own. But if there's one thing, maybe you could share with us.

The short answer is yes, because this goes back to the story I was telling at the beginning about how the agency I was working with at the time decided it was important to do treatment for perpetrators in order to stop the cycle of violence. With sex offenses in particular, there's something called reunification or family reunification, which means that the goal ultimately, especially, if it's incest or if it's if it's if it's abuse that's within the family so it could be a relative it could be just broader family family system you know the larger family but the goal in those cases oftentimes is to reunify the victim with the family and the victim drives that process by

the way so if the victim doesn't want it or is not ready for it there's no reunification but if the victim after a certain amount of treatment feels comfortable, unifying with, let's say, a brother or a father or somebody in the family, then that process will typically occur. But that process will not occur until the perpetrator has completed some type of treatment and gone through some thorough assessments about risk. And so to answer the question, yes, that in those, especially in those types of situations where there's reunification, it does require

working with the perpetrator's family, and often the victim will be a part of that family. And it requires working closely with them to assess their readiness to accept the perpetrator again into the family and whether there's some level of forgiveness, I think. But there's a lot of elements that go into that. But yes, I have worked with perpetrators. don't occur in a vacuum. They occur in a family system. And so, yes, it's really important to work with the family system. What does the family go through? They go through a lot. They go through disbelief. They go through grief. They go through hell. It's very hard also on the

perpetrator's family. I have another question from Nancy H. Why do you think they seal the search warrant of his apartment? Because for public safety? and to protect the surviving roommates? Question. We certainly have our thoughts on this. John and I have talked about this. So I think that's a great question, Nancy H. I know why I think they do.

I think they found a lot. I think they're protecting the victims. One thing we saw them take out of his apartment were two massive hard drives. And we know he spent a lot of time on the computer. You know, John and I uncovered our, you know, a wonderful team member, hidden true crime, these emails. He wrote in a chat room when he was a teen.

He spent a lot of time communicating with others online. I can't imagine what they found. And maybe they needed not just protect the victims, but other people that could potentially be victims with what they're finding out. That's what I think. That's my speculation. I don't know that. So let's make that clear.

That's where my brain goes. And I think you could argue, I would add to that, I think you could argue that they're also trying to protect the investigation. In the same way that they weren't particularly transparent about a lot of information they had early on. I think that they don't want rampant speculation. And I think they're trying to keep some of this information under wraps so that they don't go through the same type of rampant speculation from from from from from internet folks about what's going on and who did what so I think some of it has to do with they're trying to make sense of the information first and foremost and they probably don't want to release a lot of information at this point until they

understand it and they have a lot of information collected um how much can we trust perpetrators that they tell the truth in regards of motives is this something that they often lie about? Yeah, this is a question I like to answer because there's an assumption. I think many people have this assumption that perpetrators know what their motives are, and a lot of times they don't. I talk about when I do evaluations, one of the last questions I always ask is,

why do you think you committed this crime? Why do you think you did this? and 95% of the time the answer I get is I don't know. I think it's a misconception. I think it's a bit of a myth that perpetrators know why they're doing it and what their motives are. I mean, they're, and I should make a distinction between surface motives and deeper motives, too. Somebody might understand that they're robbing a bank to get money, but I don't consider that to be the underlying motive. I guess law enforcement would probably say that the motive is greed or money, but the reality is, especially if there's

an element of violence, they're engaged in violence for other reasons. So perpetrators may know, they may have some inkling of motive that tends to be superficial, but when you ask them to dig a little deeper and to try to figure out what's really going on and why they committed a crime, most of them have no idea. I think of Chris Watts, who's, if anybody, if any of you guys have watched American Murder, which is the documentary about Chris Watts, who murdered his two daughters and his wife in horrific fashion. Towards the end of that documentary,

the prosecution lays out their case and says he did this because he had a mistress and he wanted to start a new life. And the judge turns to Chris Watts and says, why did you do this? And so the prosecutor just gave this response. He gave his theory of the case. He did it because he had a mistress and he wanted a new life. and Chris Watts tells the judge, I don't know why.

And I think it's an amazing moment because that's what I see all the time is there's a difference between, first of all, every crime is multiple motives. So let me say that. But very few offenders understand those motives. And oftentimes you have to dig a little deeper and really kind of understand someone's history and background to start making sense of the real motives. And that's one of the things we try to do in our, in our podcast and our YouTube channel, I think, is to try to dig a little deeper. And as far as perpetrators lying about motives, yes, they lie all the time. They're extremely deceptive about motive.

If they do have some sense of motive, a lot of times they're not honest about it. So, for example, would somebody who commits a sexual crime say that they're attracted to children? probably not. Sometimes they do, but it's not common. Topsy is asking, do you think that this was always going to happen? Was Brian Destin to always be a killer? Or was it circumstances that happen to unfold? That's a big question too that you've answered a little bit more in depth on previous lives. But do you want to touch on that quickly?

I think the suspect was struggling a lot with many obsessive violent fantasy. and he was trying, I think initially he was trying to figure out a way to manage those fantasies and to try to control them. And then there was probably some triggering event. We don't know what that was, but more than likely it probably was a triggering event that involved something to do with the victims. And for whatever reasons, that trigger pushed him over the edge. I think that those violent fantasies in the end overwhelmed him and he wasn't able to contain them.

And I think at some point then he just started planning on murder because many people who have obsessive thoughts will need to act in order to feel some to relieve that anxiety. So a lot of times, obsessions create a lot of distress for people and the only way to really rid

something that someone can rid themselves of that distress is to act. And in this case, if you're having a lot of violent fantasies, unfortunately, one of the possible actions you could take would be murder. And, you know, ironically, After these murders, his classmates talked about him being more animated and chattier, and he seemed to come to life.

And that's consistent with that theory that this is someone who is having obsessive fantasies about violence, and then he acted out those fantasies, and now all of a sudden he's very different. He's not as distressed. He's livelier, right? Most of us would think, well, that's really bizarre. but if you think about it in terms of the way this person thinks and kind of his obsessive qualities, I think that makes sense. Going back also to Chris Watts, just to reiterate what you're explaining, Jeannie Marie.

So Chris Watts was so disconnected from his own self that he couldn't even articulate that he killed because he wanted to be with his mistress, intriguing. Is that how you would say that or a little bit differently? I think the point I'm making is that I think he on the surface I think Chris Watts would say that would recognize that he kills he murders because of the mistress but the point is I think he knows there's something deeper he knows that murdering someone to be it when you have two daughters and a wife and you love them and you've been close to them even Chris Watts recognizes that the sole motive is not a mistress the motive goes deeper. Yes, that's what I wanted you to get at. It's not the motive. That's not the motive. A lot of men have mistresses and they don't kill their. Yeah, yeah. The point is that he recognizes that it's something else. He recognizes that it's not, it's like the bank robber. Is the bank robber really robbing the bank for money? I mean, yeah, sometimes they might be. But if there's violence

involved or, you know, there's a lot of other factors that kind of make it about something else. So most crimes are, you know, I call them the big three. There's greed, lust, and revenge. Those tend to be what I would call. The Dateline three, too. Yeah, the Dateline three. But those are more surface level type motivations. And I think most criminals would recognize those.

But somebody like Chris Watts recognizes, so let's say his would fit the lust category. I think even someone like Chris Watts recognizes that this goes beyond lust. to kill your two daughters for lust. You know, even he knows that that's not what's driving him. Kay, Valo, Woodcock, and Larry, who's with you. Thank you so much for being here. We love spending news with you, too. And I'll just pin that for a second.

Kay may 2023 be the year of justice. So we're with you all the way. For those new to our channel, Kay and Larry Woodcock are the grandparents of JJ Valo. J.J. Valo and his sister, Tiley Ryan, were murdered. And the trial for that case is also in Idaho. It's another Idaho case. And we'll be covering it. And Kay, we blessings to you. So may 20, 23 be the year of justice. And the gem stayed. Idaho needs it this year. So. And I just want to say, too, I notice that Kay has a picture of JJ. And I don't often tell our origin story. I guess I probably don't

have time to tell tonight, but I just want to say that JJ is a big part of the reason why we're doing this. So thank you, Kay and Larry, for doing what you do and for seeking justice and for fighting for such a wonderful child as JJ, who, as you guys know, reminds me a lot of our son, too. So thank you guys. And we are fighting for Tiley as well, and Charles and Hamming. But yes, we don't. Yeah, yeah, of course. We will share your origin story one day. Yeah.

Thank you for being here, Kay. JPL. Back to JPL's question. Thank you for your support. I think that B.K. wanted to be like other high-profile criminals. I'm so afraid he's going to try and write a book. I think that, I think for him it's a conflict. I think his goal ultimately is to commit the perfect crime.

I think ultimately he wants to commit the perfect crime. murder and get away with it and kind of gloat and think about how smart he is and how he outwitted everyone i think ultimately that's his goal but i think he's conflicted because we know that many students that have known him said that not only was he intent upon showing you that he was the smartest one in the room but he would let you know it many times over so obviously this is someone who's attention seeking and he wants you to know how smart he is and how clever he is and how you know, important he is. And so that would be consistent with someone writing a book about what they did.

Is that possible? Yeah, I think it is possible. I think he may want to talk about this someday. I hope not, but he might. There are a lot of really great questions coming in. There were also some super chats we were unable to answer tonight. So we will try to, we will be going live. We always go live on Friday evening.

It's usually a lot earlier unless there's a date line showing. What time are we, we're usually going live at 5.5.30. Always double check. Sometimes we have life issues, so we never set the time for certain. But it's about 5.30 right now. Let me answer this question here, though, about leaving the sheath. Yes, that he left the sheath. He must despise himself.

I think that's one of the reasons he goes back to the crime scene the next morning, by the way. I think someone who, you know, I'm surmising that this is someone with some obsessions or obsessive thoughts. That's based on some of his dietary habits and his exercise habits and comments he's made to other people. And it's also based on the fact that he seems to have stalked the victims, which often involves a bit of an obsessive quality. But I think he goes back to the home after he commits the crime because he knows that sheath is in there. and he must have just been tripping over himself. He must have just been, he must have been berating himself

for leaving the sheath in the house. And I think he was mulling the possibility of going back into the house at like 9 a.m. in the morning. And he was weighing whether he would get caught or get found on camera. So, you know, it's a really interesting moment. I think, I think that's correct. I think higher ground is correct.

that that sheath really, really, really must have disturbed him a lot. And probably still does. To suggest that there might be some truth to Maddie or Kaylee pulling it off, there was a comment earlier by someone who said that he probably didn't just drop it when he pulled the knife out because it looks like it's something that snaps on the belt. And it was probably on his belt with the snap. And that somebody could have pulled it off. So just to point out, that's a possible.

reality. I just want to throw that in there too. Like maybe those, to add to what heroes, Maddie and Kaylee might have been, maybe they did help him leave that sheath at the crime scene. I don't think it points to the fact that the murders begin on the third floor, though. Like I've seen some speculation about that. That doesn't make any sense to me. No, well, I'm saying if they pulled it off, it doesn't matter where he goes.

Yeah, yeah, right. It doesn't. Yeah, if it's buckled to his belt, he doesn't drop it when he pulls a knife out. All right, everyone. thank you so much for being here tonight. Forgive us for the questions we didn't get to. Like I said, there were even a couple of super chats we didn't get to. Please leave them in the comments,

your questions. And if you gave us a super chat, please let us know. And we'll read all of the comments and answer some of them next Friday for our hidden hour. Thank you to those who are becoming YouTube members. We do have memberships now, different levels of being our hidden gems.

Johnson's out coughing. We better go while we're having ourselves. And thank you, everyone. We're so honored to be a part of Dateline, not once but twice now for two different cases. We really do think that Dayline does an incredible job in telling the story and carrying about the victims and getting their facts right and doing their research. And we do know that they've been in Moscow, Idaho. They were one of the first people there. We're honored that when Shane Bishop asked us, the producer of Dateline, if we wanted to take part in this again, we said absolutely. We have such.

respect for Keith Morrison and for Shane Bishop and the whole committed to Eatling crew. So thank you to Dayline for having us. And thank you to our Hidden Gems for being with us through this journey. I want to just, I want to acknowledge our community and the Hidden Gems and how much you guys have meant to us. And I want to thank our, acknowledge our community and thank our community and express my gratitude because with Without you guys and without this platform, we wouldn't have a voice. And thank you for giving us a voice and a place to talk about crime. And for then, you know, allowing people like Dateline to think that we're interesting enough to help illuminate these types of crimes.

Otherwise, they never would have reached out to us. So this begins with our community. We're really, really grateful that people show up to listen to us and let us kind of speak our minds. and we hope you guys are able to kind of obviously add to the conversation. So thank you guys for everything. And now I'm losing my voice. Thank you guys for everything. No, I'm going to take over for you.

Thank you guys for everything. It's clearly time to go. We'll get some rest. We'll get some cops, drops, and be prepared for next Friday. And if there's breaking news, as always, get ready for those spontaneous lives, hit notifications as well as subscribing because there are those surprise. why does it come? Thank you, everyone, and have a great night. Thanks, guys. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making

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