Hidden True Crime - IDAHO FOUR: Moscow Idaho Student Murders with Dr. John Matthias and Lauren Matthias (Dec. 10th, 2022 Live Show)

Episode Date: December 14, 2022

(This episode was previously recorded during a Hidden Hour LIVE SHOW on Hidden True Crime's YouTube page December 10th, 2022. Every Friday night, unless otherwise posted, subscribers are able to ask forensic psychologist Dr. John Matthias questions.) You can watch the LIVE SHOW here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIE6Mbhluqk&t=1438s Another live Hidden Hour with our gems! Subscribe for additional Friday night lives, psychological analysis, and insider interviews for an in depth look at crimes.  This week we discuss the tragedy in Moscow, Idaho near the University of Idaho campus where four friends lost their lives after an intruder allegedly targeted the roommates and friends.  Each Friday night we host HIDDEN HOUR, to share our night with our Hidden gems. While HTC is developing--the exact time is not as certain. Please always check in to see what time our Friday night live is airing until we have a solidified schedule.  DR. JOHN MATTHIAS is a licensed clinical and forensic psychologist with 30 years’ experience in both clinical and forensic work. He serves as an expert witness for the federal government and has consulted on numerous high-profile cases for District Attorney’s offices and defense attorneys in several states. In the forensic area, Dr. Matthias has developed expertise in personality assessments, hidden behavioral motivations, complex trauma and criminal psychology. In the clinical realm, he has worked with numerous victims. He received his Master’s degree in Marriage, Family and Child counseling, as well his doctorate degree, from the University of Southern California.  Dr. Matthias graduated with honors in philosophy from Princeton University, and he won the prestigious McCosh Thesis prize while there. In high school he graduated valedictorian from a large public high school in Chicago where he was chosen to participate in a ground-breaking valedictory study that continues to this day.  Dr. Matthias has been an adjunct assistant professor in the University of Nevada Las Vegas clinical psychology doctoral program since 2007. He supervises UNLV doctoral students on forensic assessments, clinical case formulation, and various therapeutic approaches to clinical work. Your support helps us produce these podcasts/videos. We have some big plans to explore the true crime terrain in a way that no one else has attempted. HIDDEN: A TRUE CRIME PODCAST is: CRIMINAL PSYCHOLOGY REINVENTED. Join us on a journey into the darkest recesses of the human mind and the unconscious motivations that drive human behaviors in order to understand the world and ourselves.  WEBSITE: https://hiddentruecrime.com/ TO SUPPORT:  https://www.patreon.com/hiddentruecrime https://paypal.me/hiddentruecrime https://cash.app/$hiddenTruecrime Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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premium materials like European linen, organic cotton, but they cut out the middleman. So everything is priced way lower than you'd expect. Refresh. your every day with luxury you can actually use. Head to quince.com slash hidden true crime for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quince, quince, ui and c-e-com slash hidden true crime for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash hidden true crime. Hello, we're live. We've been live for like nine seconds. Who knew? Hello, everyone. We have a special, we have a special, we have a show plan for you. Thanks for waiting an extra day for us to to share. It was a very busy week reporting on the Moscow homicides and we're going to continue the conversation here tonight.

If you like our show, please hit subscribe and like our channel. It helps us so much to continue doing these live shows with you. We have again a special show. plan for you. We are going to be answering a lot of your questions. Our last Friday hidden hour, many of you shared your questions and comments. We asked you to leave them. Well, John and I can, John and I looked at all of them, all of the comments. And I want you to know that even though John and I can no longer respond to all of our messages, we try, but it's just the two of us responding to everything. I want you to know we do read everything. And there were some great questions. And we've picked out some really good ones for tonight.

And then we'll also ask additional questions tonight. So with that being said, John, John and I went to a Santa Claus brunch today with our families. And your dad was there. And he was talking about this case. I couldn't believe that. I couldn't believe that. Do you want to start with that?

Yeah. So, you know, when my dad starts talking about true crime. You know what, babe, I don't think your mic is on. I think it's a computer audio. It's not on. No, I think we're hearing. So if you switch to settings, you go to settings here and then switch it to microphone, perhaps. Yeah, yeah.

Okay. While he does that, I also want to bring attention to a pinned comment in chat. John and I have also been following along the Monkey Vaughn case. Monkey is the nickname for Michael Vaughn, a five-year-old boy who went missing in July of 2021. So over a year ago, we've been following this case from the beginning. I've interviewed Monkey's mother, Brandy, and this season I asked if there was anything our community could do to help. And she said that Monkey loved giving Christmas gifts. It's been some really hard updates for those that don't know.

They've learned that have four people that might be involved in monkey's disappearance and in his death, although they have not found his body. So with that heartbreak, they said that monkey loved giving gifts and they would love to get to the needy children in the Fruitland, Idaho area where they live. And so we have set up a wish list for kids or a gift. there have been so many things bought. Check out our community post for the latest or our Facebook post about the latest updates. It's truly a miracle. We're calling this monkey's miracle. And I have a website to share more about that. Brandy, the Vaughan Neal family is so touched by what's happening. They're going to help distribute all of these gifts the week of Christmas

to needing children in their areas. With that being said, do you want to do a mic check? Yep. How's that? Can you hear me? Yes, that's your microphone. Okay. And for those new to our channel, we, this is Dr. John Matthias. I am Lauren Matthias. I'm a journalist. He's a forensic psychologist.

And we are also husband and wife. So I slip sometimes and I call him babe. And our listeners or our viewers have nicknamed him Dr. Babe. I don't know how fondy is of either, but he's a good sport. I'm adjusting. I'm adapting. Yeah, yeah. So with that being said, John, your dad brought up this horrendous crime at a Santa Claus brunch today.

Right. Yeah. So, yeah, my dad never talks about crime. So when he wanted to discuss, even though he knows what I do, when my father wanted to discuss this case, I knew that everyone must be talking about this case because now he's interested in reading about it. it and let me tell you his theory of the case. So I think this is what happens when non-internet detectives start speculating about cases maybe. So my dad's theory of the case is, and he claims that he read this somewhere. I don't know his source.

Can we share how old your dad is too? He's in his 80s. Okay. He's in his 80s. He's older. Late 80s, though. He has a theory of the case that, someone at the University of Idaho

and the administration is tied to the mafia. And I don't know, he couldn't articulate it exactly, but I think his theory is that, and he claims he read this from a credible source, by the way, but the theory is that the administrator is somehow connected to the mafia. I don't know if it's drugs or something, but the administrator wasn't fulfilling his obligations,

and so the mafia reacted by enforcing a hit on these four students, taking them out to affect enrollment at the university to harm the administrator. So I listened to my dad's theory and, you know, I tried not to laugh. I mean, you know, look, is it possible that his theory is correct? Yeah, I guess so. I guess every theory is possible. I wouldn't entirely rule it out. But I told my dad that I didn't believe his theory was accurate because I think if it was a mob hit, they probably would have gone in with multiple people and probably they would have used guns because they would have been concerned about expediency and efficiency.

And so my guess is that this is some type of mob style hit. Number one, they would have taken out everyone in the house because they didn't want any witnesses for sure. Number two, they probably would have been concerned about getting in and out as efficiently as possible, which would have involved a gun. A knife would be highly inefficient if you're trying to get in and out quickly and not get caught. And obviously the crime scene is going to have much more forensic evidence with a knife. So my dad kind of paused and he thought about it and he's like, yeah, that makes sense. But again, I don't know. But the point is that this case is really capturing a lot of people's attention and imagination

and my dad getting involved is an interesting component or an example of that. Yeah, exactly. This is a gentleman who's never even listened to our podcast. Right. I presume that if I wrote a book, my dad would read it, but he hasn't once listened to our podcast, nor does he know what we do. So. Beesney said Dr. Babe's dad must clearly be a Redditor. Yeah.

So maybe the mob hit theory is circulating on Reddit. But anyway, I think that theory can be disproved by the knife, but maybe not. I mean, anything's possible here. Anything's possible. With that being said, I want you to know that your question's coming in. I have a wonderful mod that is submitting them and saving them. for later. First, like I said, we're going to go through the comments, or excuse me, the questions that many of you left in the comments last week. And this is something we want to continually do.

So always leave your questions in the comments for us. We read them all. And they often make for great discussion the following week. So question. And we, we should also mention, we read emails sent to our website. We read as much as we can, but we just, we can't respond to it all if we want to have any time in our day for actual work. Yeah, but look, we even print them out giant. I married somebody who still print stuff out. I love it, and it is very handy. So this first one comes from Olivia Page.

Questions about this. And then, so, yeah, okay, I was going to say, well, do we want to talk about the recent press releases, but let's do those in a little bit? Sounds good? We'll start with these questions. Yep. Do you think that someone who could commit such a savage crime had to have been on some sort of

drug or drugs to heighten his mental state or illness of extreme anger or hatred? With such signs of violence in each bedroom, wouldn't someone need some sort of substance to give an extra level of anger? Excuse my cough. Thank you both for your professionalism and expertise. Olivia Page. Yeah, so this is a really fascinating question. When I first conceive of this crime, I wasn't really thinking about substance use or substance abuse being a component of it.

But when I heard this question, I immediately thought, yeah, you know, methamphetamines may have played a role in this crime for sure. I think we don't get a chance to talk about the relationship between substance abuse and crime that often. but let's think about it here for a minute. Amphetamines are generally speaking the most frequently implicated drug and violent offending. And the reason for that is that amphetamines, let's just call it meth,

meth enhances arousal, enhances mood, it enhances a sense of invulnerability and grandiosity. It increases activity. It increases impulsivity. Also, people on meth are more inclined to care less about conflict or they're more likely to engage in conflict. And so it's not hard to imagine that this perpetrator was using math or some type of amphetamines, some type of stimulant when he went into that house that would have created more anger

and more aggression. And it would have, right? And so I think it's an interesting question because there's definitely a correlation. And I say correlation because it's not causation, meaning drug use does not cause crime. Drug use is often seen as related to crime. There's a relationship, but it's not a cause of crime. In fact, there's a study by Hoken from 2014. The title of the article is drug use and abuse in human aggressive behavior.

and Hoken found that there's a definite relationship between violence and amphetamine use, but the relationship may actually be driven by more underlying antisocial traits. So it's not necessarily the drug that's leading to the violence. It's the interaction between the drug and the personnel of the offender. So there's a combined effect here. The drug is often a catalyst. And, you know, when you picture a crime like this that's so brutal, I think amphetamines could definitely amplify that sense of anger or rage that's going on,

and it could create kind of a frenzy around the crime scene. And since we don't know the nature of the crime scene and whether it was messy or not, I mean, presumably it was. I think it's entirely possible that this is someone who may have some history of substance abuse, more than likely methamphetamines. And so that's an interesting component to add to any profile that we're devoidable. developing here. So thanks for that question, Olivia. That's a great insight. It wasn't something I would normally think of for a profile offhand, but after your question, I think this could

definitely be sort of an amphetamine-induced type crime. And at the very least, if the murderers using amphetamines, it's going to enhance everything. It's going to make the anger more severe and it's going to make the aggression more severe. And certainly this seems to be a very severe crime scene. So that's a great insight. Somebody, I unpinned it, but somebody thought that they might get high after the crime too. Is that anything you could speak to or is that? I think you'd probably be looking at more of something like alcohol after the fact.

if they're trying to de-escalate, you know, perhaps they're using something that's more of a sedative rather than a stimulant. But, yeah, it wouldn't be surprising to see the murderer in this case have a wide range of substance abuse problems. So I think, you know, when you're using meth and your committee multiple murders, my guess is there's a lot of other issues going on. There's probably mental health issues. there's probably other substances that are being abused here, maybe alcohol, maybe some type of anti-anxiety medications, maybe Xanax. I don't know. I wouldn't be surprised to see this person have a broad history of substance abuse, you know, starting in adolescent years, maybe. Thank you. Next question from last week is from Tony Diaz.

Could this killer now be discered? strot and mourning. Could the killer be truly remorseful and feel guilt right now? Yeah. This is another interesting question because it's actually something that Kaylee's mom mentioned in one of her initial interviews, that she was making a plea for help. And she said to the public, please come forward. I know you must be feeling guilt.

I know this must be, she said something like this. You must be feeling guilt. This must be weighing on your conscience. You need to turn yourself in and just get this over with because you're so guilt-stricken. And of course, as someone who works with many criminals, my first reaction to that was, oh, man, that's kind of a misunderstanding of criminals in a way because psychopaths, if that's the case here, psychopaths often don't feel remorse and they don't feel guilt and they don't have a conscience. And so it's not hard to imagine that someone engaging in this type of behavior would be a psychopath or would lack a conscience.

And in fact, their inclination would be not to come forward at all. They would actually probably gloat in these types of murders and see this as a victory of sorts. Right. We had an interview earlier this week that hasn't been aired yet for a later date, and they asked you this sort of question. And I remember Kaylee's mom that that kind of struck you that she said, if you're feeling guilt, come forward. And you thought, no, he's not feeling guilty.

Yeah. And we could, you know, we could get into sight. We talk about psychopaths a lot on our podcast and in our work. And, you know, we could spend hours talking about this subject. But the gist of it is that many psychopaths have deficits in terms of processing emotions. And that's largely or partially attributed to the fact that their amygdalas tend not to be as high functioning as normal people. In many cases, their amygdalas are atrophied. And so the amygdala, which is deceit of emotional processing, is defective in a many of them.

And again, it's not, the amygdala in and of itself is not going to be responsible. It's not going to be causative. It's not going to cause the lack of emotion. It's going to be a host of things, including upbringing and family environment. But that's a factor. And so without emotion and without empathy, without remorse, psychopaths tend to be sort of a different breed. They tend to be, they tend to be,

they tend to engage in much more criminal behavior than the average person. Let's say that. Yeah. Natasha McMillan, I'm so sorry that this happened to you, but thank you also for sharing your experience. I want to read that. This, she says that she is a survivor of someone who was extremely high during the time of attacks on me. Meth use does cause a scary,

psychosis to happen. However, in my experience, I know the attacker had remorse afterwards. Yeah, that's a great question. The people that are more frequent meth users experience short-term psychosis. And that's important because psychosis is also correlated with crime and more severe crime. And so in terms of assessing for whether someone is psychotic or schizophrenic, It's really important to recognize whether they're using drugs at the time of the crime or what their history of substance abuse is because oftentimes you can have methamphetamine-induced psychoses, which are temporary. I mean, there might be some permanent brain damage depending on how much the drugs are used, how much meth is used over time. And there's also, by the way, not just psychosis, but regular meth users tend to be more paranoid. So you get this combination of paranoia and psychosis.

And that's not a good combination for that's a combination that's a combination that's more likely to lead to crime than not. If somebody is predisposed to do that. But as she points out, once the drugs, once the effect of the drugs is worn off, then the remorse is more likely if the person is not a psychopath. Thank you. And actually, we'll talk about this more a little later with some of the other questions, but there's a researcher by the name of Peter Langman, who's looked at a lot of, he's done a lot of research on school shooters and mass murderers.

And Langman, in his typology of different types of people that commit these crimes, he sees all of these crimes as committed by people that are either psychotic or psychopaths. And I guess his third category is what he calls trauma, trauma-based shootings. There's trauma-based incidents. But for the most part, Langman considers that many of these types of murderers are kind of on the spectrum of psychosis or psychopathy. Thank you. Julie Holden reminded us, she said there were 932 people in chat to hit that like button. there are now over a thousand we thank you if you could please hit that like button and subscribe

if you like our show we won't make you do anything unless you appreciate what we're doing but thank you to those who do that uh julie holden also posted the link to peter langman and then we have our friend scientific skeptic that said hello so just wanted to point that out too and langman let me mention langman langman's classic work is is kids who kill it was published in and nine, he has since published a few other books about school shooters and mass murderers. And I'm actually going to be attending a workshop with Peter Langman next month that I'm excited about in January and he's coming to Nevada. And that's going to be interesting.

I'm going to look forward to that. Yes, you are looking forward to that. All right. By the way, again, those that are asking questions, we are keeping track of your questions. We're writing some great ones down. And we're going to continue on with last week's questions that were in our. our comments first. This is from just another Smith, but it was also a question that several people asked on our channel. Hold on one second while I cough. I was sick this week,

which is why we didn't do our live last night, so I apologize. We were both sick and so with our child, so it's been it's been a little bit of a rough week, but we're getting through it. Just another Smith asks, what about the possibility? that the killer entered the house while everyone was out and was hiding somewhere in the house. It wouldn't be unusual for young adults to stay up until dawn. So the killer would need to be certain everyone was asleep to get away from this heinous act without alerting the others. And then I want to mention that there was another thread of comments that John and I both looked at

that asked the same question. And Diane White mentioned that she had asked this on another channel and she felt she was dissed or made to feel dumb. no question is a dumb question on our channel diane so this question is one that many have um and i think it's a solid thought john what do you think yeah i actually think it's a really clever question in a way because it and again this is a question that really kind of forced me to think about for a moment because it's it's not something i initially would have believed but then when i thought about it a little more I realized that this is a real possibility, and here's why.

Because psychopaths, so let me give some history to this. Robert Hare, Herr is spelled H-A-R-E. Robert Hare, he wrote a classic word called Without Conscience. It's one of the first books that summarized a lot of the research on psychopaths. But Hare and his initial work, which began roughly in the 70s, he was conducting some experiments where he was providing different stimuli, violent stimuli, to subjects. And among those subjects are people that he would consider psychopaths.

And he noticed something interesting that psychopaths showed a reduction in autonomic activity. In other words, what he found was that psychopaths had their heartbeats actually went down. their pulse rates actually went down when they were watched, when they were subjected to violence and violent images. And this has been something that's been confirmed again and again. James Blair is a British researcher who's done a lot of work on the psychopathy as well. Blair has also talked about how our nervous, the nervous system of psychopaths is quite different than the nervous system of a normal person.

And that the typical, most of us when we're in stressful situations, our heartbeats will go up, our breathing world accelerate. Psychopaths are the opposite. They actually calm down. Their heartbeats go down. And so, you know, so I picture, so in answering this question, I think it's possible that if you had a true psychopath, that they might be interested in getting to that home early and they might be sitting in a corner waiting and they're calm and they're collected and they're revisiting fantasies. And that's something Langman has also found is that many school shooters and mass murderers have recurring repetitive fantasies of violence and of the violence that are about to commit. So picture the killer in the house, getting in the house early, just like just another Smith said, so that they knew they could be in the home when the victims came back and they would be present.

and he would know that there's sleep. And if this is a true psychopath, there's different psychopaths, by the way, there's primary psychopaths, which are more personality-based, and there's what we call secondary psychopaths, which are people that commit antisocial behaviors that have some traits of psychopaths,

but they're mainly driven by emotions and they're mainly driven by situations. So those are sometimes called emotionally disturbed offenders. But it's, it's possible, possible to imagine a primary psychopath getting into the residence with a lot of calm and a lot of confidence that they're going to commit these murders. So when I initially conceived this crime, I thought it was probably someone who was really agitated, somebody, you know, like the meth person, somebody on math who was really agitated and worked up,

and they went in there and they just went ballistic. But this other scenario, I think, when you think about it, this other scenario is a real possibility. if you think that the calm psychopath who can regulate their fight or flight response, and they can sit in that house for hours, and they can fantasize about this crime they're about to commit in a very calm collected way, I think that's possible. I don't think that's as likely, but I think it's an interesting scenario, and I think it's definitely possible.

So, you know, people that are mocking that scenario and laughing about it, which they apparently did with Diane, that's unfortunate because I think that's very real. And somebody who truly understand cycle paths and how they respond to these high pressure situations, which is to say they respond calmly. Someone who understands that would understand that this is someone who could definitely sit in that house for hours and calmly wait to mutilate those victims. Number four, last Friday on our Hidden Hour Live, we discussed Elliot Roger. as someone that you felt might be a similar, a similar type of mass killer.

He was an in-cell who wrote a manifesto before killing girls in California in sorority homes or sorority women in college. So this question is from Cici. Actually, it's, oh, well, no, she does ask why at the end of here. What's fascinating, she says, about Elliot Roger. And let me, sorry, set the stage a little bit more. Elliot Roger, an in-cell, meaning involuntarily celibate. He did not like women.

He wrote a manifesto expressing that, that he couldn't date, that he could never, I mean, he had anger towards these types of women that he chose to target. Murder by proxy also is something we were discussing. for those that didn't see last week, someone can share the link to last week's live and you can see all of that there. Cece writes, what is fascinating about Elliot Roger is that he was actually quite handsome. Sadly,

he had a horrible attitude and outlook on life and his specific circumstances. Had Elliot put himself out there and had had a healthy attitude, without question, he would have had zero issues with dating or having a steady girlfriend. He had the inability to be humble. He didn't understand that even really good-looking people are regularly, romantically rejected. What most of these in-cells don't understand is that dating and falling in love is about clicking with someone else who gets you. It's not about looks as much as it is about having a good attitude, being positive, having a good sense of humor, and not taking life so seriously.

I wish more young men realize this. In the end, the guy with the best sense of humor and interesting personality gets the date, even if he's average looking. Look at Pete Davison, she says. Shout out to Pete. Perfect example. Not good looking. That's an opinion.

But the ladies seem to like him. That is seemingly fact, according to his love life. Apparently, very famous women like him, yeah. Right. But she says it's probably because Pete Davidson is really funny, knows how to laugh at himself at life and just rolls with the punches. is women prefer funny to gorgeous. And I will also add they prefer brains because you know what they say about big brains.

Anyway, go ahead. She asks, why is this or what can be done? Yeah, this is, so this question really speaks to what leads to healthy relationships. What are the qualities of a healthy relationship? And I think one of the things that we find when we look at mass murderers or school shooters is that they're very isolated. They lack social skills. They lack the ability to communicate in a healthy fashion. Many of them are very self-centered and narcissistic. Many of them have narcissistic disorders or features or traits. So many of them, by the way, if we go way back to

early childhood, many of them have insecure attachments. And that's something we've talked about on a podcast. But the issue is that these types of folks tend to blame others, specifically women. Many of them, by the way, feel damaged. They feel damaged as men. There's masculinity issues here. They feel like failures when it comes to being men. And so those are qualities, all the qualities I just mentioned are going to be deficits in terms of developing healthy relationships. I like this question because I think a lot of these problems could be solved if somehow we could facilitate healthier relationships in those earlier years.

And if somehow, I don't know when, but maybe as early as grade school, we start teaching our kids how to communicate better. what healthy relationships look like. And sure, you know, we're great at teaching math and English. And but why don't we, why don't we, why don't we teach these kids about healthy relationships? Because that's going to be the foundation of everything they do in the future. It's well known that emotional intelligence is equally predictive of success as IQ or just intelligence overall.

So, but we don't, we don't emphasize those things. and these kids get lost in the cracks. They don't know how to connect to other people. They're often marginalized socially. They're social misfits. And so I think Elliot Rogers is a great example of someone who, on the face of it, on the surface, he looks like he's a good-looking kid. He looks like someone who shouldn't have any problems connecting to other people,

to women, specifically for dating. But he has immense problems because he doesn't understand empathy. He doesn't understand how to communicate. He can't be vulnerable. He can't be honest and direct, right? So all those elements that go into really healthy communication and relationships, many of those or most of those are lacking, not only in incels, but in mass murderers and probably in the killer here.

Thank you. You know, Haley, Managold shared an interesting comment here in response to that. She said, hidden true crime is insecure attachments, the root of psychopathy, and criminal behavior because I have insecure attachment style. Thank you for sharing that, Haley. Is it the root? No. There's never a single root. There's a number of roots.

So if you think about the tree growing from roots, there's many roots. The other roots would be family culture, school culture, peer relationships, parental relationships. There's so many elements that go into this. And let's not forget genetic components that we know from some of the research by Adrian Raine that there is a large genetic component to violence and to psychopaths. And so that component doesn't change. There's not a lot we can do about that. But insecure attachment can be a component when it's combined with all the elements that we've discussed, then it becomes a problem.

You can have a secure attachment and overcome that. If you're willing to work on it and become somewhat vulnerable and open, and if you're really committed to improving the way you relate to other human beings, you can do that. There's always hope. So, no, insecure attachment. It might be a root. And many of the criminals I've worked with, it's definitely a route. In fact, I don't know.

So I've assessed maybe 600 criminals, 600 felons over the years. And I would say 95% of them have insecure attachments. So is it a root? Yes. Is it the cause? No. As you said, there are several routes. Yeah, there's always multiple roots.

Right, right. Thank you to those that have sent in super chats with their questions. We see those and we'll prioritize those. Thank you. And we are keeping back of them. There was a question you just pinned that looked interesting. It wasn't a question, but a statement. Okay.

It was a comment. Yeah, it was from Gene. She said, you just described me, but I am not a psychopath. I have been hurt and choose to go into my cave. I am also a celibate because I don't have a relationship. So this is not just men. I am too empathic. Yeah, for sure.

So it's, I agree. There's plenty of people. There's many people that have insecure attachments that have empathy and they're relatable and they're not social misfits. So, yeah, really it's, when you get to murder or when you get to sexual assault or when you get to serious crimes, it's always a combination. It's always like opening up a safe. let's say that there's let's say you need six different turns

of the knob to get into the safe every one of those turns of the knob has to be met to get to murder many of us might have a couple of those qualities or insecure attachment might be one of the turns but in the end to unlock the safe you really have to go

through all the steps and it requires quite a lot thank you Tom so much Dr. John and Lauren, you do a great job. Keep it up. Thank you. All right. Question number five from last week's live. Dr. John, I just found your channel. And you have maybe spoken previously about this. But my question is, what do you feel was the motive? And we did talk about that in our last live. But it's been a week. Things are changing in this case. We learn new things every day. And so I think this question we should open up to our audience, because, because I think one thing I like to say is that this isn't about me. Yes, I've been doing criminal psychology for many, many years, and I definitely have some strong opinions, and I hope they're based on research for the most part. But I think the purpose of our channel is to really spark a dialogue with our viewers

and to really have a conversation about this, because none of us know exactly what the motive is. We can speculate. you know, my dad thinks that the motive is some corrupt administrator at the University of Idaho. Maybe he's right. I don't know. Maybe he'll full us all. But what is the motive? I don't know. You know, I think I'd like to talk a little bit about some research by Peterson and Densley. They wrote a book called The Violence Project. I mentioned it last week. and in that book they kind of walk through the various steps that are that are necessary to get to a mass murder, which I consider this to be a mass murder because you have four victims.

And yeah, people are, people are weighing in already. I agree with all of those. Yeah, you keep talking. I'm just going to pin them all. You asked us to weigh in. We're weighing in. Rage, yes, these are all good. Thank you.

We love our. audience. You guys are right on. Let's let me talk about, let me talk about Peterson and Denzely's steps and then we can start to zero in a little bit on motive. But so in their research, they believe or they state that most of these types of murders start with some type of childhood trauma or some type of childhood adversity. Now, I should clarify that, that many of us, many people have gone through childhood trauma and adversity and they don't get to murder and that's absolutely true. But again, you have to kind of click all the buttons to get to murder if that's where you land. But going through childhood trauma, of course, in no way is causal. There's no causal relationship

between childhood trauma and mass murder. However, they believe, and their research indicates, and they don't have a big sample. So they're quite quick to point out that their sample size is small. And there's not a lot of mass murderers should study because most of them kill themselves after their crimes. But they state that childhood trauma often leads to anger and depression, sometimes depression and mental illness. And childhood trauma can be one of the foundations, and again, this goes back to insecure attachment, can be one of the foundations of relationship instability and social problems. And so that's where for them, they found that mass murderers all had some type of childhood trauma.

In many cases, the trauma was quite severe. So it's also important to note that mass murderers aren't just experiencing childhood trauma. They're experiencing severe childhood trauma. That's a distinction. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the Internet. and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers, spammers, even stalkers.

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Tier 1 compensation provided. Investing involves risk. Acorns Advisors LLC and SEC registered investment advisor. A few important disclosures at acorns.com slash hidden true crime. So the other thing, I think this is my two cents here, but sometimes childhood trauma is highly correlated with shame and a sense of inadequacy. And those things also, I think, can be foundational if they're severe. Those things can be foundational in terms of later behaviors and in this particular case, possibly motive. So for them, it starts with childhood trauma. their next step is there's some type of triggering event. So what would a triggering event be?

I think a triggering event in this particular type of case would be some type of rejection, some type of failure, some type of public humiliation, some type of amasculation. If we're talking about issues around masculinity, there's probably something here that has to do with emasculation that somehow this person's sense of masculinity was threatened if they were rejected. So my guess is, I've speculated about this, and this is speculation, but my guess is that I could, the scenario I kind of work with is that, let's say one of the victims is in a fraternity and let's say Kaylee is in a fraternity party and somebody knows that she's single, somebody knows that she's back for the weekend only.

Maybe a fraternity person has had their eye on her and he goes up to talk to her and maybe she makes kind of a dismissive, rude comment and rejects him. She probably won't remember that moment at all. She probably doesn't even know him. He's probably not even on her radar. But he feels rejected. He feels hurt and damaged by the interaction.

he feels emasculated, and he's probably going to ruminate about that event for a long time. I could imagine this happened a month before, or two weeks before. He's brushed off. He feels rejected. He's stewing over that. He's ruminating, and he's fantasizing about revenge. So that brings us to motive. So you have some type of trauma that sets the stage with shame or anger.

Then you have a triggering event. The triggering event is probably something like rejection or failure or loss. And then you get to the actual motive for the crime, which I think there's several here. I mean, these are mine. I appreciate our listeners' opinions are excellent. But after the rejection, oftentimes the mass murderer will develop revenge fantasies. They will want attention. So there's this quest for significance.

They want to, in many mass murders, that's not true here. But I think that's why there's some risk for future violence from this person, because many mass murders want to be on the stage. They want to be seen and recognized. So I think the first motive would have to be, for me, would be revenge. This person has been hurt and they're trying to get back. And so some of the research in getting back to Langman, some of the research from Langman suggests that,

and I'm putting this in my own terms, but that this type of murder is what's called a compensatory type murder, meaning that this is someone who feels very damaged, and they're trying to compensate for that damage through an act of violence so they can repair their damaged self. So in other words, revenge and violence allows this damaged person to feel less damaged. They're making up,

they're trying to make up for their sense of inadequacy and shame and damage through an act of violence. And obviously that doesn't work. It never works. But nobody's going to say that this is rational. So motive, ultimately, I think if you really wanted to dig down deep on motive,

and that's since we're called hidden, and that's what we're, our job is to find what's hidden, I think you'd have to go to something like, an attempt to repair a damaged self. And I don't mean just a, you know, we're all damaged to some degree. So I mean like a severely damaged human being. That this is reparative.

The motive is this misguided attempt to repair those childhood wounds and hurts through violence. So for me, motive would be revenge, power, maybe a little bit of fame at some level. but the real motive is this repair, this attempt to repair, an extremely damaged self. Thank you. We're done with questions, and so we'll get to the questions of this audience, but I also want to give a shout out to someone who shared their thoughts on or their theory as to what happened. excuse me Maddie Garcia

so she shared this last week and I John and I both agreed it was a great theory so we wanted to share one of our hidden gems we call our viewers hidden gems Maddie Garcia says my guess

is this person was one rejected from a fraternity or two rejected by one of the girls he was rejected from the fraternity and ended up in ROTC military which might have been that type of weapon or someone following any one of the four of the girls or four of the students back home and sat in that parking lot until it was time to strike.

The house itself is considered a house with fraternity members. I strongly feel the suspect killed Ethan first to put down a strong defender because he's a man and a potential threat to the suspect if he knew he was in the house. So taking out Ethan first lessens the possibility to. get to all victims. If his target was upstairs, he wanted to get rid of the potential threat before going upstairs. And if any screams happened, Ethan would run up. So he got rid of the biggest threat to the killer.

I think Zana woke up during Ethan being killed. And then he killed Zana. His potential threat is down. So now he can move upstairs to the target if one of the two girls were the target. But why else go upstairs since there is no potential threat stopping him? just a thought in how it could have gone. I think he was parked in the parking lot waiting for the target where all of them to arrive and go to sleep.

What a coward and to attack when asleep. Which to me shows a lack of confidence. Justice for the Moscow four. God, please let there be some DNA in that system. Pretty good theory, right? Yep, that's, I think that's an excellent interpretation. I think it's a version of what we've been talking about. and we appreciate those types of analyses.

Yes. Yes. Fishface, I didn't thank you earlier, but thank you so much for your support. And Esther, we're so glad you found us. I'm going to start reading some questions. We'll start with those that sent super chats. Thank you so much.

We'll prioritize those and we'll try to get to as many as we can. We have a lot of questions here. I've been saving. Thank you, Joe, for your support. court, how do mass murders and serial killers differ psychologically? So we discussed the difference in our last live. We discussed the difference between mass murderers and serial killers. And you sort of describe this is more of a mass murder type of crime.

This person could be a serial killer. We don't know, but it looks like a mass murder at this moment, this crime. Yeah, so typically a serial killer is going to, not always, but typically serial killers will pick one victim at a time. There'll be a lapse of time between each victim. They usually operate in the shadows a little bit more than a mass murderer. A mass murderer is more interested in publicity and kind of getting on the stage. But some of their underlying dynamics are similar. I think there's, in many cases, there's that.

there's that damaged self. There's that kind of underlying sense of shame and inadequacy that's always haunting them, that they can't shake. And so violence is one way that they tempt to repair that sense of, that damage sense of self. But they tend to be a little different. You know, again, with serial killers, there's not a huge amount of research on the topic.

So it's not entirely clear what drives serial killers. Also, I should mention, serial killers and mass murderers, neither of them have a completely valid profile that describes who they are and what they do. So there's enough variance, meaning differences between them, that I think we know that the behavioral analysis unit from the FBI is up in Moscow, trying to decipher what's going on, and that's great. But I think they would be the first to tell us that there's no one specific profile that's going to identify a serial killer or a mass murderer, that there's enough difference between them, that it's hard to really, really categorize them

and figure out exactly why they're doing what they're doing and who they are. Thank you. And thank you to Topsy. She says, you guys deserve a bigger audience. I'm going to share this on my socials as one of the best factual non-drama channels. Really impressed with you guys. Thank you. That is such a big compliment to us. Thank you. Topsie so much. Please do. If everyone could share our channel, it means a lot. It's a chance, let people know it's a chance for people to ask

a forensic psychologist live some thoughts on YouTube, something that is not often done on YouTube. Susan, D, thank you so much for your support. I was sent your Instagram message. I somehow missed it. I'm going to talk to John about those questions today, and we will write you back because those are some great questions, but there are really good questions. Susan, we'll write you back tonight. So John, Susan gave us a wonderful donation and has a private message for us. So we'll write you back.

Thank you. Clumsy clairvoyant. Thank you for your support. She said, this is a good question, actually, for me, because I've been in the media. I was a television reporter for 10 years. she said, can mistrust with media and law enforcement and the public cause more chaos? Yes, it can.

I was on News Nation last night with Ashley Banfield, and we were discussing this very thing. And you can find that video posted. I think I posted it this morning. You know, I don't think that the police are necessarily. Oh, my phone is, oh, my phone is not sure about that. I don't necessarily think the police are inexperienced, but I do think they're inexperienced with a crime that is getting this much attention and how to handle it.

And I do feel like their lack of transparency, very few press conferences where reporters can ask questions, just trying so hard to shut down speculation that it does the opposite. it, I don't think that it is helping the chaos. I think it's making more of it, in my personal opinion, as someone that's not just been a television reporter for 10 years, but someone who spent half of my career in much of the gem state. We are the hidden gems here.

It's the gem state in Idaho. And so five years in Idaho. And I do think it's increasing chaos, in my opinion. John, do you have any opinions on this? I think, so we talked about some of the elements of the healthy relationship. I think the same can be said about organizations, that healthy organizations, this is my opinion. And there's some research on this, by the way, but healthy organizations tend to be transparent. They tend to be honest.

They tend to be open with information. And that's true in relationships, too. So one of the keys, I think, to good communication with any human being, whether it's another person, the media, an organization is to be transparent and to tell people what you know and to be honest about it. That gives you credibility, right? And so I think one of the problems here was that early on the police, the Idaho police made a statement saying that there was no risk to the community and basically saying, don't worry. you know, even though there's been four brutal murders, you know, just move on with your lives, nothing to see here. And I think the problem with that statement is they lost a lot of credibility. If you're going to get that credibility back, I think you need to be transparent.

You know, if that transparency impedes the investigation or creates problems in the investigation, then by all means, I don't think they should be. But if it seems to me, and again, I don't know, we don't know the investigation, but it seems to me that they're a little defensive. It seems to me that they're on their heels a little bit, and they're trying to withhold information because they're angry that people are pressuring them to find a suspect, and they're not doing that as quickly as people like.

And I could open a real can of worms here and point out that we could talk about the press release yesterday where they threaten internet detectives with criminal charges. If there's too much rampant speculation, I think they were actually talking about actual threats to potential suspects, but it's an, I have never seen a crime case where the police and the case have said, have told people on the internet essentially, that if you go too far, we're going to file criminal charges against you. And of course, I told you, Lauren, I said, well, wait a minute,

aren't we, we're kind of internet sleuth, right? Does that mean? So is somebody going to knock on our door and handcuff us? I don't know. I mean, It's an interesting way to address the lack of transparency. Rather than be more transparent, it seems like they're going in the opposite direction. And now they're threatening internet sluice with criminal charges. I mean, that's, I don't know. I don't think that's healthy communication. Well, I think one of the problems is we don't know what harassing means.

Janet is saying some are harassing people, but what is at what point, you know, what is that? And I agree with Janet that if I, there, there, There's always a fine line in Janet's saying that some people were being harassed. And yeah, that that's crossing the line. I think that there are, unfortunately, there are a lot of unethical YouTube channels or podcasters out there who will do anything for views and clicks and whatever. And some of them are crossing lines and resorting to wild speculation and maybe even harassing some of the known suspects or people that are believed to,

be suspects. I don't know, but it's still for the police to do that, to say that publicly, is still a little troubling. I think they can, if they believe that, then they should do that behind the scenes, I think. I don't know if a public statement is necessary saying we're going to go after internet sluice because internet sluice are a huge community and, you know, we consider ourselves to kind of fit that category as long as well as our listeners. And I don't think any of us want, you know, that we want to have the ability to speculate, but not unethically or wildly. And but yet we still want to be able to do that in a fair, you know, in a, in a constrained way. And yet, so it, I don't know.

I don't have the answer. I think it's an interesting response. Again, transparency, I think, solves this problem. One thing, I think you brought up, I think this, this is an example of what I think creates chaos, this lack of transparency. I was really excited to get the release yesterday, the news release, also because they keep saying they're going to do a press conference, and the only press conference we're getting is a prescripted interview

with the police chief where no reporter or media can actually ask them questions. So I'm aching for these press releases, just aching for them. And so I get it. And here's the latest it says. And the first three or four paragraphs are, don't listen to anyone but us. Stop sleuthing or else you're going to, if you're harassing people and you're going to get criminal charges.

Only listen to us. Only listen to us. Only listen to us. And then they don't tell us anything. And then that's it. That's the release. That's the release. It's hard.

It's hard when they're not giving us anything. And I think what they're not realizing is that creates more speculation. Right. And I think, I think that they're minimizing the collective intelligence as some of the internet detective community or true crime communities. There's some really smart people that have found a lot of useful information on many cases. And we're very grateful for our community that's done the same.

And so I agree with Lynette. I think it was a little bit over the top. I think that if they're going to pursue criminal charges against some people that have crossed a line, that's fine, but do you really need to say that to the entire true crime universe? I don't know. Right. And it also makes me worried they're not focused on the right thing. Like, I know this, I can only imagine how hard this would be, but maybe they need to put someone else in charge of calming the sleuth. Like, you know, the university officials or somebody else and then just focus on the crime. Becky asked something. Thank you for your great question, Becky.

And this is something that I find hopeful is, she asked, do you think this is going to be solved timeline? My answer is obviously, I don't know. I hope. I hope. But one thing that I want to point out is this week, police at the bottom, well, it was, what is today? Today, Saturday? So it was a week ago on a Saturday release at the bottom, they slipped in the police.

numbers. You know, this is many people from the FBI, this many people from the Moscow police, this many people from Idaho State Police. And they drastically switched the numbers without really pointing it out, which I didn't like the lack of transparency. But here's where I think it's hopeful. Moscow police department, their numbers have gone significantly down as being investigating on the scene. And FBI numbers are going up. To me, that means that the evidence has been gathered. That's the police department's job to gather all this evidence. When you're bringing the FBI in, you're usually processing the evidence, or at least more of that. They have more resources to do that. What that means exactly, I don't know, but I think there's hope in these changing numbers.

Let's hope. We can only hope. Yeah, I think it's an extremely positive sign that so many FBI agents have been brought in. And the FBI is excellent. And I think, think they're going to, if they can get to a suspect, they will as fast as they can. Yes. Yes. More questions coming. I believe it's true. Is it physically possible to kill four individuals without any help from substances? I would say it's possible. Yeah. I mean, so, you know, on that question, I should, let me make a clarification that Peter Langman makes in some of his research. He often says, and this is, I think this is a great way of putting it, but Langman often says that this isn't, these people

aren't just angry. They're not just filled with rage. They're filled with what he calls existential rage. And I love that because a lot of people, everybody knows what anger is, everybody knows what rage is maybe to some degree. But Langman's point is that this is not normal rage. This is not just being angry at your parents or this is the type of rage that, that knows no bounds. This is the type of rage that is about a rage towards the world and towards life. It's just a, it's a pervasive rage that's unconstrained. It's a limitless rage.

And I think a lot of us can't relate to that. This is sort of like adolescent rage on amphetamines or something. This is like, I don't know, it's hard to describe. But I like, I like Langman's distinction because this term, existential rage, I think, really gets to the, it's this type of rage that's driving school shooters and mass murderers. It's not, this is not just being angry because you've got an F on a test or you were rejected at a fraternity or whatever. This is more than that. This is being angry at everything. This is a seething rage that defines who you are. These are the type of

kids that in high school, you know, they're the ones that are drawing really dark pictures of death and morbid scenes and they're reading Edgar Allan Poe. I guess I shouldn't say that because I really like Edgar. I still read Edgar Allan Poe. So maybe that's not a good example. But there's an intrinsic kind of darkness and alienation that these kids hold. and they project that on the world. That's the type of rage we're talking about.

And so I think that distinction is important. This is a question from Janet. I would imagine the killer enjoying all of the media and the internet rumors. But will that satisfy him enough so he doesn't commit another crime? Or would this type of thing urge him on to another horrifying crime? first let's thank Denise thank you so much Denise thank you Denise thank you Denise we appreciate you you you've been such a loyal hidden jam and we we really are grateful for Denise thank you so in answering that question I would refer to the latest press release that the police put out

where they talked about winter commencement is coming up this I think this next week right at the University of Idaho. And they basically put out of... And one of the victims would have been graduating. I believe Maddie would have been graduating. Yeah. Correct me if I'm wrong anyone. I'm not quite sure if it was Kaylee, too.

But yeah. Very sad. Okay. Right. So the winter commencement is coming up and the police put out a statement to the effect that the killer is still out there and watch your back, essentially.

In other words, they're saying the exact opposite of what they said at the beginning, which is that there's some risks. So to answer that question, I mean, the police answered it for us. The police are basically saying that this is someone who could kill again. Regulation was today. Yeah.

Oh, today. Okay. So I don't, so there's a lot of other people in town. I think, I don't think, I think this would be a really bad time. So murder other people,

you know, because there's so many, so many, law enforcement, there's such a huge law enforcement presence. But if this guy, if this murderer is arrogant enough and a true psychopath, I would not be surprised if someone like that would tempt fate and take his chances just to get attention and get back on the stage. Thank you for answering that.

And then I have a question from Patty G. Why kill them all instead of just the target when she was alone. Like, and so let's say that the target is Kaylee, which is someone you've always thought was the target. And you know what? And I want to say that too. You suggested last Friday that you believe Kaylee was the target.

And it was that weekend after our live that we did hear she had, uh, the worst injuries that she was as you say the term is overkill. And maybe we need to talk about that a little bit. But, um, Patty G does ask. Why kill all four of them instead of just the target, which let's say it's Kaylee, when she was alone? I think we're going to have to, to answer that question, I think you just have to kind of walk through a logical inductive process. I think we have to kind of go Sherlock Holmes here and think about the steps of this crime. The killer's easiest access appears to be the second floor.

my guess is the killer enters the second floor if the killer wasn't already in the building which we just talked about earlier why that could be possible but if the killer goes enters the residence through the second floor the killer may have encountered Ethan and Zana

maybe they were stirring maybe he saw Ethan and he perceived Ethan Ethan to be a threat maybe the killer didn't want to leave behind witnesses for whatever reasons the killer sees them he might not have expected them, so he kills them to remove the threat. And he knows that his real target is on the third floor. So enters the second floor, perceives some type of threat, acts on that threat,

then goes up to his intended targets. Natty happens to be in bed with Kaylee. And he's probably surprised by that. He might have expected Kaylee to be in her room. She's not. he probably recognizes that for him to kill his intended target, that he probably needs to kill Maddie as well because he doesn't want to witness and because she's in such close proximity to the body

that he probably feels no choice. And by the way, since he's already killed several people at this point, it probably doesn't matter to him that he's probably so worked up. And let's say based on the earlier question that he's in some type of methamphetamine, I mean, induced psychosis and he's just going crazy. It's not a big deal. It wouldn't be a big deal to him to kill Maddie as well. So in a really heightened state of arousal, there's a much more likelihood that multiple

victims would, you know, be killed as they were. And so that's kind of how I see the murders playing out. I really think in many ways, three of these victims could have been in the wrong place at the wrong time. And that Kaylee was the intended target. But if you think it through logically, if we put on our Sherlock Holmes hats, seems to me that that's a scenario that makes sense.

Thank you. Can you explain what overkill is, the term overkill? I mean, we use it every day in English language. Oh, that was overkill. But what does it really mean? So overkill is, criminals or let's say murderers

murderers tend to have what we call signatures a signature is the way a crime is committed so if you look at a serial killer oftentimes their signature it's sometimes called a calling card you know you see this in Hollywood movies a lot right that like in the movie seven with Morgan Freeman every every crime scene

had a specific signature that they could relate back to the killer. And overkill is a version of a signature. Overkill is when a murderer resorts to more violence and aggression that is necessary to subdue a victim or kill a victim. So in other words, you can slit someone's jugular and kill them with one stab, right, with one stab wound. But when a murderer stabs, you know, the jugular and then the heart and then the chest, like when they, when they, when you get stabbed 40 times, that's overkill because it's

unnecessary. And so overkill becomes some way, it becomes a way to assess the psychological characteristics of the murderer. In other words, you're trying to infer certain elements of motive and psychological characteristics based upon the way the murders occurred and whether there's a certain signature to the crimes and overkill is part of that. So one thing we know about overkill is that a lot of times it involves a lot of rage. But I guess that's something that would be obvious in this case.

We've talked about it a lot. But the other thing that's often common to overkill is a desire. And I think of for those of you know. the show Dexter. I think of Dexter sometimes. Dexter is kind of my exemplar for a psychopath, by the way. Dexter and Anton, I can't remember his last name now from No Country for Old Men, but humiliation is often another element of overkill. So if we use Dexter as an example, Dexter sets up pictures of the victims in his crime scenes, that his crime scenes are highly staged and he's very meticulous.

But one of the things he does before he kills his victims is he wants them to acknowledge that they did something wrong. And his goal is not just revenge, it's also humiliation. So in all of his crime scenes, the victim, are naked and they're subjected to sort of this reckoning where he puts up pictures of the victims. And so in Dexter, this goes beyond rage. This is about revenge and it's about humiliation. So he's trying to humiliate the victims. So overkill, that's an example of how overkill might provide information about a murderer's motives.

Thank you, everyone, for your support tonight. Somebody said they want Dexter to find this perp. Yeah, that would be great. I wish we could. I guess I shouldn't say that because Dexter's, you know, I mean, he's a fictional character so I can say it. But yeah, Dexter is like the only serial killer you can actually empathize with. Yes. Everyone, thank you so much. John, thank you, by the way, for, for, I thought it was really interesting that you, again, suggest, it was Kaylee and then we learned shortly after that she did have the most injuries.

We still don't know if that means, you know, again, we're, we speculate with evidence here. We don't know if that is accurate. We do healthy speculation based off of evidence. And for those saying that there are a lot of awful hidden to crime sleuths harassing, yes, no one should ever go real life.

or harass anybody in real life. So we do not support that. Anyway, one other video that people might want to watch. I just want to share because we have a lot of new followers following us along. And Dr. John, for those that remember the Gabby Petito case, when Gabby was missing before anyone knew what happened, We, the night the Moab body footage came out, Dr. John did an excellent analysis of that body camp footage from Moab police. And I recommend anyone going back and watching that.

If you're catching up with our channel, for those of you that are interested in this crime in this case, particularly, you might appreciate what John says and explores in that. He actually, through his research and studies, he, he actually, um, through his research and studies, he actually could show you how the relationship was not loving that the Brian was a perpetrator. He said this and a lot of people were upset at him and that he also said that he believed the manner of death would be strangulation. It's a really interesting video to look at. Thank you, Julie Holden, for pinning that video. You can also find it under our Gabby Petito playlist.

There aren't as many videos there as have been in this case. But my only regret with the Gabby Petito analysis is that I wish that body cam footage had been released earlier because I think there may have been a chance to have fully assessed the situation in more depth and that maybe she could have been helped. As in when it happened. Yeah. They released the footage literally two or three days before her body was found. So she was clearly deceased by then. but if that footage had been really, nobody was talking about this as being a domestic violence. Gabby Petito has been a domestic violence situation and I was and that was my concern.

So I think. Yeah, people kept saying, oh, but they're so loving. I remember you appeared on Fox discussing it and the Ingers said, but aren't they loving? You know, all these videos and you said, I don't see any love. I don't see any love. I said it depends on how you define loving. Yeah. If you define loving as possessiveness and.

control then yeah maybe but that's not how i define it interesting comment brooklyn thank you for sharing that um thank you she's a licensed funeral director has been for two decades she has seen so many stablings usually it's two or seven times many wounds are not even oh many wounds aren't even punctured this crime scene is definitely overkill thank you for that um while we enjoy our time with our hidden gems and we enjoy this conversation among friends. We clearly understand the depth of this tragedy, which is why we've taken this case on and why we talk about it so much. So we do hope there is justice. We hope they find this person not just to get him off the street to not do anything again, but for justice and for the families.

and for the students of the University of Idaho. Glet, thank you so much for sharing that. Dr. John's analysis on the body cam footage. There you go. There were a lot of great questions in chat tonight. I forgot to hit subscriber only, so they were even coming triple time. Again, if we missed your question,

leave it in the comments. John and I will go back, we'll read the comments, and we'll discuss them. So we recommend you sharing your questions in the comments below. And then just a reminder, there is a pinned comment in chat. It's the website to Monkey Vaughn and this Monkey's Miracle that we're working on.

Michael Vaughn is a missing five-year-old boy, the case is still ongoing. But the news does not look good as far as Michael Vaughn returning home for Christmas. So if you could take a look at that, I help. One quick, I mentioned No Country for Old Men earlier. and pirate radio provided the name. It's Anton Chagher. I want to say that just to because I want some closure on that. But if you guys want to know,

if anybody wants to know what a true psychopath looks like, Anton Chagher, which is no country from old man, is a work by Cormac McCarthy, who's probably one of our great living authors. And it's a really interesting. interesting read, but Chigur is in many ways the personification of evil, that he just comes and goes unknowingly and without warning. He just seems to appear and disappear at the most random times. He's always around. It's a fascinating look at how a psychopath has no conscience, no

remorse and it's McCarthy's attempt to kind of portray to personify evil, I think. And so psychopathy, although I don't mention the term evil that much, I think that it's something we like to think about on our channel. McCarthy is interested in delving into what that means through this character, who is a true psychopath. And Colette, we hear you. She would love to see a Patreon chat about this case. We have one planned. For those interested in more in-depth conversations that John and I have at our dinner table together, you can go to patreon.com slash hidden true crime. And we have our own Patreon podcast as well as our other podcasts on all podcast formats. And thank you, Julie Holden for sharing Monkey Bond's link. All right,

Until next time, we are going live. We've always gone live with our hidden hour on Friday nights. We change this because I'm sick, forgive the coughing, but we'll plan to go live again on Friday. We'll see you all there. We have a difficult time balancing our schedule because we are spouses that are co-hosts. So a lot of things come into play.

So check on Friday or to see what time our live might be that night. We do our best to always try to keep it around the same time, but it does vary week to week just a bit. So we're hoping to get a time set in stone, but right now we're dealing with babysitters and being on News Nation occasionally. So thank you so much. Good night, everyone. Thank you so much. And we'll see you next week. Good night.

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