Hidden True Crime - IDAHO FOUR: Profiling and Discussing Evil with Dr. John Matthias and Lauren Matthias (Dec. 16th, 2022 Live Show)

Episode Date: December 17, 2022

(This episode was previously recorded during a Hidden Hour LIVE SHOW on Hidden True Crime's YouTube page December 16th, 2022. Every Friday night, unless otherwise posted, subscribers are able to ask forensic psychologist Dr. John Matthias questions.) You can watch the LIVE SHOW here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ciF2xvHlI8 Another live Hidden Hour with our gems! Subscribe for additional Friday night lives, psychological analysis, and insider interviews for an in depth look at crimes.  This week we discuss profiling evil... let's define evil, first. Each Friday night we host HIDDEN HOUR, to share our night with our Hidden gems. While HTC is developing--the exact time is not as certain. Please always check in to see what time our Friday night live is airing until we have a solidified schedule.  DR. JOHN MATTHIAS is a licensed clinical and forensic psychologist with 30 years’ experience in both clinical and forensic work. He serves as an expert witness for the federal government and has consulted on numerous high-profile cases for District Attorney’s offices and defense attorneys in several states. In the forensic area, Dr. Matthias has developed expertise in personality assessments, hidden behavioral motivations, complex trauma and criminal psychology. In the clinical realm, he has worked with numerous victims. He received his Master’s degree in Marriage, Family and Child counseling, as well his doctorate degree, from the University of Southern California.  Dr. Matthias graduated with honors in philosophy from Princeton University, and he won the prestigious McCosh Thesis prize while there. In high school he graduated valedictorian from a large public high school in Chicago where he was chosen to participate in a ground-breaking valedictory study that continues to this day.  Dr. Matthias has been an adjunct assistant professor in the University of Nevada Las Vegas clinical psychology doctoral program since 2007. He supervises UNLV doctoral students on forensic assessments, clinical case formulation, and various therapeutic approaches to clinical work. Your support helps us produce these podcasts/videos. We have some big plans to explore the true crime terrain in a way that no one else has attempted. HIDDEN: A TRUE CRIME PODCAST is: CRIMINAL PSYCHOLOGY REINVENTED. Join us on a journey into the darkest recesses of the human mind and the unconscious motivations that drive human behaviors in order to understand the world and ourselves.  WEBSITE: https://hiddentruecrime.com/ TO SUPPORT:  https://www.patreon.com/hiddentruecrime https://paypal.me/hiddentruecrime https://cash.app/$hiddenTruecrime Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Lately, I've been trying to be more intentional about what I wear, intentional about everything, just choosing pieces that feel effortless, still put together, timeless, but also not overthinking it every morning. It's why I keep going back to quince. Their pieces just make getting dressed easier and I feel so classy. I feel elevated. The fits are flattering. The fabric is really high quality. Everything is wearable day to day. I actually got this really, really, beautiful yellow V-neck midi dress from them, and I paired it with some Italian leather sandals. It's one of those outfits that just works. It feels polished but still comfortable. It's exactly what I've been looking for. What surprises me, though, is the quality for the price.

Quince uses premium materials like European linen, organic cotton, but they cut out the middleman. So everything is priced way lower than you'd expect. Refresh. your every day with luxury you can actually use. Head to quince.com slash hidden true crime for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quince, quince, q-u-in-c-com slash hidden true crime for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash hidden true crime. Hello, everyone. Happy hidden hour. Can everyone hear me okay? It looks like it. Dr. John and I are. glad to be here. In fact, so glad I should probably turn off my phone here. There we go. I'm going to have some moderators help me through my phone, so I'll put it right there on silent. Thank you,

everyone, for being here. For those new to our channel, we just keep receiving new subscribers every week. Thank you so much for subscribing and hitting that like button. We are a journalist and a forensic psychologist. I was a journalist, TV reporter for 10 years. John is a forensic and clinical psychologist and has been for decades. So let's and then on top of it. It makes me sound really old. Well, on top of it, the most important part of this is that we are husband and wife. So when you hear me call him, babe, it's not that I'm being inappropriate. Or maybe I am. I don't know. I'll try hard not. Today, we're going to tackle a pretty bold question. And, by where, I mean Dr. John today.

We're essentially going to ask, is there a profile of evil? I don't know myself, many forensic psychologists that would even dare go here, but we're going to tackle that. So stay with us. We're continuing to discuss the Moscow homicides in Moscow, Idaho, a college town, University of Idaho, northwest Idaho, actually is where it is. bright young students taken far too soon. We still don't know who did it.

We're still all wondering and we're going to continue discussing the possibilities of that crime. So thank you for being here. Thank you. Thank you. With that being said, we said last time to leave your questions in comments that we would ask your questions for the following week. And that has worked really well for us. So thank you.

But once again, we read everything. We can't always respond. It's just the two of us, but we read them all, and we picked a few of your questions to read tonight. So, Dr. John, Dr. Babe, do you want to start with those questions now before we get to the big question, is there a profile for evil? Sure. Let's start with some of the questions. Note that the questions are mainly about psychopaths or psychopathy in terms of psychological research, just to tie this end, there's been more and more research these days, which looks at that question

of whether psychopathy is something close to approaching evil in social science. So it's a huge topic. We'll scratch the surface, but we'll try to develop some answers to that. Just as a quick intro, there's a fairly recent book, Psychopathy in Human Evil, which, which, obviously tries to answer some of the questions we're going to talk about tonight. It's an edited edition by Ikevitz and Howell. And I'm not completely out in left field by addressing this issue. It is a current debate, and there is psychological research on this question of evil. So we'll do our best.

And you gave a little bit of a teaser there, too. For those that are on our Patreon, we already put out one teaser. call this what John just did lifting up that book discussing that a follow-up we have an announcement coming soon that we'll be sharing so call that the second clue to what it is and no it will not be baseball cards or NFTs the first question we have comes from Mickey Duff. Mickey Duff thank you for your great question on last hidden hour she says or he I'm not quite your first time watcher. My question is, would someone who committed this crime have absolutely no history of violence in their past? Yeah, that's an interesting question. I think it's possible.

I think that there are some psychopaths who are able to channel some of their psychopathic qualities in a positive direction. So there's actually a group of psychopass called subclinical psychopaths. And a lot of these types of people end up in the corporate world. So, you know, these are the CEOs that embezzle or take all the stock or screw their shareholders or whatever and have no guilt about it whatsoever. Usually they're chasing money rather than violence. But they don't typically have histories of violence. And there's actually a more recent theory of psychopathy, which breaks psychopathy down into three areas. The first one is meanness.

The second one is disinhibition. And the third one is fearlessness. So if you look at those three areas, fairness could be a very productive quality. So many psychopaths who are sometimes called boldness, by the way. So fairness, boldness, boldness can serve someone well in the corporate world. And so you see psychopaths without a history of violence

that are what we call productive psychopaths and they're quite successful, and they exist. So are there psychopaths out there? Could this psychopath, potentially, if it is a psychopath, could this person potentially have not had a history of violence? Yes, it's certainly possible. I would expect that there would definitely be some clues. You know, it's also possible that psychopaths fly under the radar when they're younger

or they're not caught, that they engage in some violence outside of normal channels. Like maybe they don't have fights at school. They have fights after school and they're not caught. So it's certainly possible to have a history of violence. It goes undetected. My guess is that for somebody doing something like this, there's probably some clues somewhere and there might be some violence. But answering the question more broadly,

yes, there are psychopaths that don't necessarily have histories of violence. Let's hope that they're not your bosses. Here, here. Here's your hoping. Who's our boss? Are you my boss? I'm your boss? How does it work when we're co-workers? Nobody's the boss of us yet. Yeah, maybe one day. Maybe we need to hire a boss.

Right. Yeah, hopefully not a psychopath. Yeah, we'll put out an ad. We need a boss, no psychopaths. Right, because I think an ad that reads psychopath-free boss is going to work really well. That's not going to attract a psychopath. Right. Our second question actually comes from Patreon. Thank you, Sylvia, for being a Patreon member and asking this great question on Patreon. Two questions, actually. I'll ask them both, John, and you can start with the first or the second, whatever you want. Sylvia asks, when a psychopath is named a suspect of a crime, and he knows he or she is a suspect, how does he react? That's the first question. The second question is, what behavior would you expect from a psychopath who knows that law enforcement or even the wider community is seriously looking into the crime or them? Of course, there's no one way to answer these questions. I should point that out.

But how would I expect a psychopath to react, you know, maybe with some pride or maybe indifference? You know, one thing about psychopaths is they do really poorly in terms of processing emotion. In fact, there's there's a large belief that. psychopaths have emotional processing deficits and it's connected potentially to the amygdala in the brain. So many of them have deficits in the amygdala. So how would they react? Probably not very emotionally, probably with indifference or maybe even a little bit of pride, I think. So cyclopaths also are very narcissistic. So I wouldn't, I wouldn't be surprised to see a psychopath react with some degree of pride. Wow. Wow. Would they ever,

taunt or anything like that, by the way? That's one of your wife's question. Sorry, I threw that at you. Yeah. I think some would. Yes, I think some would. I think they'd probably be subtle about it. But, you know, we'll talk about this later. But if I think of somebody like Israel, Keys, and Keys is an interesting person because in many ways, he's like the personification of a psychopath. But then he was in significant relationships where his partner spoke highly of him or well of him and said he wasn't violent. And he has a daughter. He had a daughter, has a daughter, that he seemed to love very deeply. So, you know, it's an enigma. I think with a lot of, and by the way, that's sort of the Dexter problem for those Dexter fans out there. The big question,

one of the big questions in the Dexter series in the last couple of seasons was, is Dexter capable of love, which is the same thing as asking is a psychopath capable of love. And most, most experts would say, no, they're not. However, you know, somebody like Keys, I don't know. You know, it's, it's an open question. It's an interesting question. It's a very interesting question, which is why I'm so excited for today's topic. Can we profile evil? I think that goes along with it. The next question, the next two questions come from Gail. Gail S. Thank you for you. your great questions. Question number one, are psychopaths born with these emotional issues?

We'll stop there. I'll read her second question after that, if that works out. Yep. So the answer is probably there does seem to be a genetic component to psychopathy. There does seem to be some early indications of psychopathy and children. there does seem to be some level of heritability, meaning that it's passed on genetically. And it's, of course, like everything else in psychology,

it's not, there's no causation here. The percentage, or we say the variance of heritability that's related to psychopathy is usually going to be no more than like 50%. So that means you can have, some of those traits you can inherit some of those traits for psychopathy and if you're in the right environment you may not become a psychopath so like many things in in social science or in psychology there's interactions between the environment and between genetics i want to thank kim matheson she says thank you for sharing your expertise and helping us all understand and

comprehend thank you so much and i also want to thank holly w for your kind contribution and super sticker. It means so much to us. Gail S, her second question that she left. Gail, thank you again for great questions. Now afterwards,

after a crime, and I think they're referring to the person that committed this crime, but you can answer this as a general psychopath or as someone that may be committed this crime. How are they feeling? Are they watching the news?

do you think he moved out of the area? And I have to say a lot of people are also asking these similar questions in chat right now. Yeah. So let me mention that, so there's an instrument called the Hair Psychopathy Checklist. The current version is the, it's called the PCLR, PCLR, meaning there's a revised edition, which came out more recently. All told, there's something like, four. over 14,000 different combinations of psychopaths.

So I should make it clear that there's no one way to get to a psychopath. If you use the hair, for example, in hair spelled H-A-R-E, I've mentioned him before. His name is Robert Hare. He's done a lot of the research on psychopathy or the early research. And I use that instrument quite often in a lot of my evaluations of criminals because it's sort of the gold standard. but it's important to note that, as I said, I forget the exact number,

but I know that there's well over 14,000 combinations of scoring on the hair that would lead to a diagnosis of psychopath. So that means, obviously, there's no one type of psychopath. There's many, many, many variants. And so, and I don't know why I'm hawking books tonight, because I have no, We have no interest in this, but this is, I'm going to hold up another book here. Making a Psychopath, it's by Mark Freestone. He has done a lot of work with psychopaths.

Welcome to Dr. Babe's reading list. This is what he does. This is what he reads all the time. It's a great book because it's a very good book on psychopaths because he shows that there are very different kinds of psychopaths and they're all a little different. He has some female psychopaths in his book. He has males. He has some that have committed murder, some that have not committed murder.

I mean, it shows that there's a wide variance in what a psychopath is and what they look like and what they do, how they think, how they act. So there's really, you know, there's no single answer here. But in general, how would they feel after a crime like this? You know, my guess is maybe a little bit of pride, maybe nothing, maybe indifference, maybe this is. this is just what a psychopath may do, right? I don't, you know, it really depends on the circumstances that led up to the crime and maybe some of their motivations. But I don't imagine that they would have a huge amount of feeling because psychopaths

generally are well known for their lack of feeling. In fact, there's, in the hair, in the PCR, there's a trait referred to as callousness, which callousnessness, callousness, which which is exactly what it is. It's psychopaths are callous. They don't feel and they don't care. So when they harm other people, they typically don't have any emotions surrounding that.

Thank you to our wonderful Maud Blue Sky for reminding everyone to show your support if you like our videos in these lives to hit that like button. And then we will know which videos or interviews or anything to bring you and what you like to see more of. Claire is actually asking,

are these layperson books? Could anyone read these books that you're reading? The first one I showed is not a layperson book. The second one can be broadly read. So making a psychopath by Free Stone can be read by anyone. It's basic. It's entertaining.

It's a really good book. Okay. And we are, I'm done with the questions that we pulled from last week. I want to, again, thank everyone for leaving your questions in the U.S. YouTube comments as well as our Patreon members and Patreon. I think this is going well.

We'll continue to answer those questions and study those for the next week. So thank you so much. And a big thank you to our mods as well. Yes, Crash D. It's so true. Thank you, Mod. Smash that like button. We have the most incredible, loyal, wonderful moderators on this channel that have become

very good friends. We're grateful for all of them. Yeah, thank you. Thank you, guys. Thank you, moderators. John, so back to this whole, is there a profile for evil? Which again, that's pretty broad, you know, what is evil? We could sit here and you can write a book on this.

But it's for Hidden Hour tonight. Where would you like to start tonight with, is there a profile for evil? Well, I think we're beginning to hint at that with talk about psychopaths. So I think talking about psychopass is a good lead-in to this question. I, you know, if you don't mind, I'd like to discuss the statement that Kaylee's father, Steve, made earlier this week. Okay. Maybe that would be a good place to start.

Yeah, I have that article pulled up. And I'm going to read it from Fox News before anyone jumps on but, but, but the family reached out after this article was written. It's true. And they stated, we'll talk about that statement after. So we do know that the family, after this article was published, it's still up.

The family did come out with a statement about this article. So first let's read the article, then we'll discuss the statement they made. Okay. Fox News, Idaho murders, father of slain victim says that she

had big open wounds, calls police. cowards. Clearly a lot has happened since this article, but it's still important to John and to me. The father of Slane University of Idaho student, Kaylee Gonzalez, told Fox News the victims had big open gouges and they were clearly the work of a sadistic male. He called the police cowards for not sharing more with the public. Guncalves said he asked the coroner how many times the victims were stabbed. She said, sir, I don't think stabs is the right word. It was like tears. Like this was a strong weapon, not like a stab. She said they were big open gouges. She said it was quick. These were something that you, these weren't something that you're going to be able to call

911. They were not going to slowly bleed out, he said. Mentions of victims, Kaylee, Madison, Zana and Ethan says that they were slaughtered in the early morning hours of November 13th in a rental home near campus. Moscow police are working with the FBI and the Idaho State Police have yet to publicly name a suspect or recover the fixed blade knife they believe was used in the horrific attack. Gonzalez said his daughter's injuries definitely did not match her friend's wounds. They may have individually died of the exact same thing, but there were more details, he said. they were not even close to matching the knife slashed open Kaylee's liver and lungs, he said. He went on to, again, call this a sadistic male. Now, let's read one of the family statements.

Kaylee's sister, Olivia, after this was published, did release the statement. Or one of them. There were several. But this is from Olivia Stevenson, Kaylee's sister. Hi, this is Steve's daughter, Kaylee's sister here. I hate to make this post. But unfortunately, this reporter got bad information. We are also working with our lawyer to get it removed.

But I wanted to let you know from the source, this information was not given to anyone at Fox from our family. So there are both states, you know, we have the article, we have the statement, and it only felt fair to read both. But I do want to share this as a journalist. And this is Fox News. This is their news section. This isn't talk show host stuff.

This isn't this is Fox's separate news that they share. If that wasn't said and that wasn't true, I don't believe it would still be up. Olivia also mentions they have attorneys working to take the article down. The article remains. I think that their statement did help to squash it. And I think respectfully, there were reasons. they wanted to backtrack and not have that go out. And that is fair.

John and I both have a lot of empathy for this family. So a lot. And you can even talk about that because I know that Steve has actually been criticized recently, John, with some of the ups and downs. He called the police cowards. He's now allegedly had a good conversation and met with the police. And he's making some claims about the coroner. And some online sleuths in some of the groups I'm in have been a little bit

critical of him and how he's handling things, the other victim's parents have not been as vocal. In fact, if we could start there, could you talk about that a little bit? Because that's what's been going on this week. Well, let me just say, I want to get into the details of that a little bit, but let me just say I have a lot of empathy for Steve because, you know, the grief he's experiencing must be immense. So whatever his anger is and whatever, you know, whatever he's going through, for me it would be nearly impossible to relate. So however he's handling it, I think it's understandable. If he's angry and he's acting out a little bit,

I mean, it's perfectly, in my mind, that makes perfect sense because he's going through so much grief. And he just lost his daughter in a really horrific manner. So it's hard not, for me at least, it's hard not for me to empathize with him. And I don't know, I don't know what the criticism is of him. Maybe that he's speaking out too much and the police are not happy about that. But I can, I feel for the guy.

So with that being said, we are going to relate and stand by for this live, this Fox News article and the statements that they claim. It's still up if their attorney to try to get it down clearly, it stands. So we're going to go there. No criticism to anyone there. But we're going to go with that just so you know where we are. We're going to go with this article about a sadistic male. That is what Steve calls this person. Right.

So let's get into the substance of that. I think there's a couple of critical issues that Steve raises. Number one is this question of whether this was targeted or random. If, you know, the last couple of weeks that we've been on lives, I've developed a bit of a profile that assumes it was targeted. Her injuries, her more severe injuries would definitely seem to suggest that this was targeted. However, as more time passes and there's no arrest and there's no apparent suspects, it raises larger questions about whether, okay, so if it was targeted, it seems to me that the killer would be somewhere in the orbit or the universe of the victim. And my guess is that they've checked out all those leads,

interviewed all those potential people, probably gone through all of the victim's contacts, right? They probably, I hope, they probably looked under every stone of people that knew Kaylee or could have known her. And so that's the advantages of assuming that the murder was targeted. and the profile that I talked about the last few weeks assumes that there was potentially a target and it was probably Kaylee.

And I speculated that that profile would have revenge or maybe humiliation of the victim as the main motive and it may have been driven by some type of rejection. So that's the profile we talked about. But as more time passes and there are fewer suspects identified, I think, you know, the profile starts changing a little bit.

You start wondering if maybe this is more random. You know, it could be that not enough time has elapsed to evaluate all the evidence and the DA evidence, and that does take time. So maybe it's that. But let me present a different scenario, which is that perhaps the

Kaylee and Maddie who were upstairs on the third floor perhaps they heard some of the commotion on the second floor maybe Maddie woke up slightly and Kayley woke up slightly and so the killer goes up to the third floor

and he attacks Maddie first she fights back a little bit but he subdues her but Kaylee now is pretty much maybe not fully awake but somewhat awake and perhaps because she was awake in fighting back that he was especially angered by her reaction and maybe that's why she has more severe wounds.

So that would be a scenario where this could have been a random killer and maybe she wasn't targeted in the way that you would expect. She was targeted because she fought back more. The killer became more enraged during that struggle and he inflicted more injuries on her. So that's a possibility. So I want to go down this path of that perhaps this is a random crime,

perhaps her injuries were simply because she fought back and not because she knew the murderer or the killer. And the more time that goes by, you know, without any clear suspects, because I have to assume, as I said, I have to assume they've looked under every rock, the more time that passes, the more I think the profile starts to shift a little bit towards this being a random crime with an unknown assailant and maybe the severity of her injuries were due to something other than her being known by the killer.

And so that's why we're talking about evil, because that type of profile starts pushing us in the direction of a random killing. and or, and I'm going to use Steve's term here, or more of a sadistic killing. So if the motive is not, let's say, revenge, then I, you know, it's funny because I talk to Lauren about this literally like two hours before Steve came out with that statement, and I said, you know, this could be sadism. This could be some version of sadism. So we'll get into that in a little bit.

But in fact, do you want to, there was a, we had a listener comment that said something very similar. Do you want to, let's give a shout out to John, to John Shade. Yeah. Great first name, by the way. Sorry about that. I've got a lot going on on my desk. Yeah, this is from John Shade. And it's a commentary, not a question, but we kept it.

This person, so it's from our last. Last week's hidden hour, live hidden hour on the comments in YouTube. This person must be insanely sadistic and filled with unimaginable rage. A huge and most significant component is the pleasure he derives from his rage and his sadism. Degradation and humiliation is all part of the fantasy of the revenge. Psychopathic can, but can blend in really well and seems normal. Just some thoughts, he says. And before you answer that or speak to that, we have over 2,000 people in chat.

It means so much. What an incredible community we have. I have put the chat on subscriber only because of the amount of questions we're getting in. So if you like what you're hearing, please hit subscribe. And if you're new to our channel and if you want to leave a question in chat, please do that. And thank you for those that are also liking and giving the thumbs up to this video. Go ahead, doctor, babe. Okay, so this idea of sadism starts moving us in the direction of what I would describe as evil.

Now, when I mentioned the term evil, you know, obviously that's a very loaded term. There's the way that social scientists would think about evil, which is trying to assess it objectively in terms of its impact on violence and cruelty. and then there's sort of, let's call it the moral domain of evil, which is more of a theological, religious, sociological phenomenon that has a long history in kind of the moral domain. So it's going to be, no matter how you deal with this, it's going to be a challenge to sort out those different components. In fact, let me tell the story.

I remember this story very well because I don't know why, but I do. But we, so when we started our podcast on Daybell, which is where it all began back in 2020, summer of 2020, I remember I did an episode on Daybell. And back then we were, we weren't getting enough comments that we were overwhelmed by them. We could respond to them. So somebody wrote in and said, why don't you just call this what it is? Chad Daybell is evil. end of story and I wrote back to her

and I said well I think we need to discuss what evil means this probably depends on your definition of evil and she wrote back this is why I remember it because it was somewhat humorous

but she wrote back and she said look just stop the psycho babble just stop the you know the nonsense and let's just call this what it is it's evil full stop end the story we don't need to discuss anymore

So I wrote back to her and I said, well, you know, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one because evil is a very complicated concept in psychology and many other fields as well. And so let's let's try to, let's try to unpack evil a little bit. I'm going to hold up another book. This is a book by a very well-known psychologist, research psychologist. His name is Roy Baummeister. the title is evil, inside human violence and cruelty. This book was written in 1997 before a lot of some of the current research on psychopathy existed. So I give Baummeister a lot of kudos for being a bit of a pathfinder and kind of breaking ground here.

But let me start by discussing how Baummeister defines evil. So he basically defines evil as inflicting harm on innocent people. Baummeister, though, is because he considers themselves a social scientist, Baummeister essentially says that this is a very difficult topic to research because victims and perpetrators have extremely different views of evil. In fact, if you talk to perpetrators and ask them, do you think your actions were evil, almost all of them will say no. Most all of them will see some logic or rational.

national and what they do, and they'll explain that, and I can tell you this from my work, so I sit in front of criminals all the time, and many of them deny what they do, and when they do talk about it, many of them blame the victims, or they don't see their actions is in some way hurtful or harmful. So Baummeister is very clear that if you're going to talk about evil, you have to acknowledge that victims have very different perceptions. the evil than perpetrators. And in fact, according to him, as I just said, many perpetrators don't see their actions as being harmful. And a great example of that would be terrorists, right?

That I have very strong opinions about 9-11 and the many innocent people that were murdered on that day. But if you ask Muhammad Atta, who was one of the people who flew a plane into the World Trade Center, he would tell you that he did it out of love. So that's not exactly my version of love, but it speaks to this point that many Americans would point the finger at Ada and say, well, he's evil. That's why he did it, right? But Otto would say, well, you know, Americans or whatever, maybe he would see Americans as evil, and he would see himself as doing something for his cause and for freedom, at least as he perceives it.

And as he said in his letter that was found later that he did the subtle love. So it's important to acknowledge that there are different views of evil, and it really depends to some degree on who you asked to. But having said that, Baummeister talks about certain myths surrounding evil. And Baumaster thinks it's important to acknowledge that these myths create this perception that there's something that's like pure evil. So the listener who wrote to me and said, we don't, why are we just, let's not deal with the cycle battle. Let's just call this evil is obviously kind of in this realm of these myths. And so one of the myths that Baumaster talks about is that perpetrators are different.

And I'm not going to go through all these, by the way. If you want to, you can get the book and kind of read about in detail his myths around pure evil. but one of them is the belief. So when we talk in the true crime community, we talk about perpetrators as being monsters, in some ways this is what we're saying, that we can't relate to them. They're not human beings.

They're different, and they should be perceived as such. We dehumanize them, in other words. We dehumanize them. Right, right. And so. They're monsters. Yeah. Right.

And that, by the way, is why that issue of dehumanization, dehumanization is why I've never used the word evil in one of my evaluations or psych reports, because, you know, first of all, judges have very different perceptions of what evil means and lawyers do and everybody in the courtroom does. So it would be confusing because when you use the term evil, you're not going to get everyone on the same page. And almost instantaneously, when you use the word evil to refer to someone, you're dehumanizing. And people are going to go to some version of the person's a monster, right? So Bombmeister says that that's one of the myths. Another one of the miss is that evil has always existed. So in other words, the idea is that somebody doesn't become bad because of their environment or their

family, but they've always been bad. And the reason that's important to Baummeister is that it doesn't acknowledge the situation. It doesn't acknowledge the fact that human beings can be can break bad. Human beings can become bad. And so there's this myth that, you know, this is this is sort of like I talked about Anton Chagru last week, Chaguer last week from no country from old men. He's like the perfect allegory or personification of evil in some ways because he just comes and goes and kills people at will and randomly. And this is kind of consistent with the, with Baummeister's talking about that,

that this, the people are just purely evil and they've already, they've always been evil from birth and there's no changing them. He thinks that's a bit of a myth. So those are, those are a couple of the myths around evil. So if we're going to develop a profile about evil, I think it's important to try to stick to, try to stick to some of the research and try to be somewhat objective. if we can.

And so let's talk about, let's talk about Baummeister's root causes of evil. So he does, Momaster does use the term evil. He thinks it exists. Some psychologists don't use that term at all. They think it's a mental construct

and it doesn't exist. I would say most don't use the term at all. It's not fair. Yeah, to say. I want to read actually a quote. This is a quote. quote from a psychoanalyst, he's British. He's, I love his work.

His name is Phil Milan, M-O-L-L-O-N. As long as I'm holding up articles. The title of this article is, is human nature intrinsically abusive, reflections on the psychodynamics of evil. It's by Phil Milan. Here's what Phil Milan says about evil. He says, is the word evil justified in psychological

discourse. I believe that it is. When I refer to evil, I have in mind a degree of malavence, which goes beyond ordinary human anger, selfishness, greed, lust, spite, envy, and egocentricity. There can be something beyond these commonplace human attributes which seems to defy understanding because it seems inherently to express a hatred of life and to involve an idealization of this hostility to life. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day.

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Discover your true age today. So I think that's a very interesting comment. And the basis of that comment, by the way, is that he defines evil as an aversion to life and is something that's beyond comprehension. And that's important, by the way, because a lot of philosophers, there's a whole school of thought and philosophy that sees evil the same way, that sees evil as being incomprehensible. and is something that's simply beyond human comprehension. And it's interesting, if we go back to like Anton Chigur from No Country from Old Man,

I think in a way that's what McCarty is after, that Chagir walks into this gas station in the middle of nowhere in Texas, and he has no purpose for being there, but he walks into the gas station and he goes up to the counter and there's the owner of the station clearly is the person there. He asks the owner to choose heads or tails. He has a coin and he says, heads or tails. And the gas station owner is perplexed.

He's like, why are you? Why do you ask me to choose heads or tails? He doesn't debate with him. He just says, choose heads or tails. And Chigur starts getting angry because the gas station owner won't go along. And what the gas station owner doesn't know is, that if he flips the coin and it comes up heads, he lives, if it comes up tails, he's dead. So Chaguer has this philosophy of life, which is essentially that life and death are nothing

more than the chance flip of a coin, that he sees life as insignificant and in some ways senseless. And it's really, it's very nihilistic, first of all. But it kind of fits with this idea that Milan is talking about, this idea of incomprehensibility in the sense that Anton Chagher is in many ways incomprehensible. In fact, I would go so far as to say that he assaults reason in a way, right? That he's, he kind of, he presents evil as a type of irrationality that can't be explained, that you can't find the motives behind someone who's evil because there are no more notice and there's no purpose. So I think that one thing that's a challenge, if we're going to talk about evil in a perpetrator, is in many ways most of us can't understand

these people. Right. Exactly. In some ways, they're beyond our comprehension. And most of us who live participate in a human community. We seek some type of justice or we're moral creatures who act in certain ways with kindness and love towards other. And so a guy like Anton Chagrew questions all of that.

He throws into question the very idea of justice in a way, right? So we, because he doesn't make any sense and because his actions are so extreme and so malicious that we just can't make sense of them. So in many ways, you know, I think you have something similar here in Moscow, right? If this is, let's assume this is a random crime committed by a psychopath like Anton Seguer.

Okay. Yeah, take us there. And it's really hard to explain the motives. Then I think it really kind of sets us on edge because most of us live in a world where we want justice and we expect justice, which means that you find the perpetrators, right? You punish them. You bring them to justice. Now the world feels safe.

Now the world makes sense, right? But when you have a perpetrator out there that can strike randomly and just go into a home and kill four people and for no, with just for the sake of violence in and of itself, it really tears, right? It really undermines our sense of security and it undermines. sense of the world. And I think that's one of the reasons this crime in some ways is so scary. And it's gotten so much attention and why so many people want justice and so many people are weighing in because there's a lot of fear and a lot of uncertainty. And maybe there's a

shagir-type perpetrator out there, right? And just lurking in the middle of the night. And I sort of think of Israel-Kees when I think of Shigur in the sense. that many of Keyes' victims were people he didn't know that he approached randomly. He would sit off the trailheads and parks and he would attract people. He would sit in the parking lots of Walmarts and targets and abduct people. Again, you know, this really challenges our notion of a safe, secure world. It does. I think you nailed it.

You know, I was on the law and crime sidebar. podcast this week. You can find that in our community tabs. I linked that. And I told them that that this case, first off, I thought that we'd see an arrest by now and it has affected my mental health because I agree. It's so, I'm going to say it. It's so evil. I'll call it that I'm not the psychologist. It's so horrendous. It's beyond human comprehension. And I, I do want to see justice. And so I want to say that I understand that everyone that's wanting that. Thank you so much, Joan. And I want to say thank you to Red Queen, Mystery, and Christy Dunn as well. Haley Manigal, I also want you to know I saw your question because you've posted it a couple

times and I love it. We're going to answer it. And we'll also answer our super chats. So thank you to those who sent those super chats. Oh, and look, thank you, Julie Holden for sharing a long crime podcast. Yeah, it's been an interesting week. I also interviewed the neighbor, as many of you know, and might be here from that. So, Enon or Chef Dizzy. Thank you, Dr. Babe. Can I ask you some questions, or do you want to share a little bit more now? Yeah, let me go a little further. Please. Let me go a little further with Baummeister's research. So what, so I've identified some of the myths he talks about. There's more, by the way, that I won't talk about. But let's identify, so if we're going to develop a profile of evil, let's talk about what he sees is the four

root causes of evil or violence, because that's important. We'd have to know those if we're going to develop a profile here, right? So the first cause is what he calls instrumental violence, which means that violence is used as a means to an end. So this is where you get greed, lust, ambition. So the first root cause is violence is a means to an end, and these are the things we see in true crime all the time. Right. Greed, money, lust, sex, affairs, jealousy, ambition, power.

These are things we're all very familiar with. So that, according to Baummeister, would be the first cause of evil. The second are what he calls threats to egotism. And that would fit, so that would fit the profile we've developed in the past, we've developed the last few weeks in terms of revenge. Revenge would be if somebody's ego is threatened, a typical response would be revenge or humiliation or, right? So that would be another root cause of evil according to Baummeister.

The third root cause of evil, according to him, would be what he calls idealism. So that would be ideology, and you would fit terrorists into this category. The final root cause, and Maulmeister sees this as somewhat controversy and much controversial and much rarer than the other causes, but the final cause is sadism.

And this gets the comment that you read, Lauren. Sadism is inflicting harm and engaging in violence because it's pleasurable. So this is probably the most interesting one. When I think about if I'm going to create a profile here that's based on somebody who's evil, this is probably where I'm going to go. That I would think of the perpetrator as being sadistic.

And this is where I think Steve's statement really nails it. I don't know if Steve intended that. But when you think about it that if there's no target here and the perpetrators entering that home, probably knowing that there's some sorority women in there, that somehow he is going to get a certain amount of satisfaction or pleasure from joy from the murders. And that's really, that's a scary thought.

But I think that's, in terms of considering this to be an evil act, that's probably where I would go. And Carol H agrees with you, just so you know right there, that pinned comment. Okay, yeah. Yes, and let me read. So I want to tie this back to psychopathy. I mean, this is from the Baummeister article.

Baummeister, by the way, he followed up his 1997 book with an article more recently in 2012 called Human Evil. Human evil, the myth of pure evil and the truth causes of violence. So this is chapter 20. This is, by the way, a really excellent. summary of a lot of the stuff I'm talking about tonight, but this is from a book called the Social Psychology of Morality. This Baummeister is in Chapter 20, and here's what he says about sadism. I don't know where I put my reading glasses. It's okay, I can see. He says that

sadism may be linked to psychopathy. Psychopaths lack empathic identification with others, and therefore are perhaps less restrained than others by empathic. ethnic distress. They may get feelings of self-efficacy from the signs of pain and suffering they elicit and these may increase over time. That's an amazing statement, by the way. It is. Wow.

Let me repeat some of that. So it's not just the lack of empathy. The thing that really started, the reason I'm reading this is because Baummeister is saying they get feelings of self-efficacy. means that sadistic acts actually increase their sense of self-esteem. It increases how they feel about themselves as capable human beings in the world. Self-efficacy is something we normally attribute to doing things well. So, for example, if you're a good student and you do well on tests or whatever it is, or maybe you're an athlete and you excel at tennis or something,

you develop self-efficacy by mastering those things and becoming better at them and improving over time. He's saying that psychopaths develop feelings of self-effacy from the signs of pain and suffering they elicit. That's incredible. So when you think about that, and I don't think it's always true, but when you think about that, I think it's an amazing conception of evil in some ways. Thank you. If it was targeted, I mean, can't it be both too? That's a question I have. That was a question I wanted to ask. I think one of the, one of my goals tonight is to contrast a profile that's based on. So my previous profiles are based on the research on mass murderers and school shooters and that sort of thing. And most of those are based on the killer essentially being rejected and trying to repair a damage sense of self through violence. And, and, and, and, and, And the goal there is some type of revenge or some type of reparative process. But this, this profile, so again, let's say we're moving away from targeted to something more random.

And we do that, that would happen over time. So the fewer suspects that are identified over time and the more random this appears, the more you would move in the direction of something like sadism, which is consistent with, as we just talked about, is more consistent with something like evil. So I think I'm just trying to point out the contrast. I don't, it would, I think sadism in some ways a category unto itself.

I think that, yes, there could be something sadistic about revenge, but I think it's a little different in the sense that, like with Baummeister, for example, he identifies egotism or threatened, egotism or revenge as its own category. And he sees sadism is separate. There could be some overlap, but I think if you were to profile in this area, you'd probably see sadism as its own category. Okay. Thank you. Thanks for answering my question. Its own category. Someone mentioned I also didn't kill the dog. I don't know what that means or doesn't mean. But clearly, again, the

dog wasn't a target nor a threat of whatever this person's motive was. You know, Haley Manigold actually asked a really good question, and then we have some super chats as well. So Haley asks, hidden true crime. And by hidden true crime, she's referring to you. This is a question for you. Okay. Okay.

So Dr. John, how do you convey the feeling you get when you yourself think someone is beyond deviant while you're writing a report. Can I say something while you think about that? You think about that. I know when John goes to the prisons to evaluate criminals. I'm never privy to everything, but I know when he's going. And when he comes back, this is something I've noticed about him. He, when you first arrive home, you have a lot more empathy. I feel like, you're like, ah, you know, you're really, you're really, I can tell you were really with this person. You come back with a lot of empathy for the person you were just evaluating for hours. And then I've noticed that as you write the report, you get angrier. As you're writing the report, then I feel like your empathy sort of diminishes a little bit and

comes your anger. So that's why Haley's question caught my attention is because I've literally seen this process happen. And so I do want to know what do you, again, the question exactly is, how do you convey the feeling you get when you yourself think someone is beyond deviant while you're writing a report? Yeah, it's an interesting question. I mean, I think my simple answer is I try to be as objective as possible in the sense that I'm relying on test data and I'm relying on records, criminal records, and I'm relying on interviews with other people that know the perpetrator. So, you know, there's a lot of safeguards here that keep me from getting too invested, although, of course, I'm human. So it's tough.

It's tough. You know, Lauren's point, I think Lauren's right in the sense that when I'm with someone, when I'm with an offender, a lot of times. I hear a horrendous story. A lot of times there's significant childhood trauma and significant childhood abuse. And that's important in terms of my understanding of perpetrator. So I do hear that and I do feel a lot of empathy. And I think when I get back and I'm a little more detached from that story and start looking at what happened and the crime, of course, when I go in, I know the crime, obviously, and most of the crimes are horrendous. But I think when I start getting some distance from the story,

from the horrible childhood stories I often hear, then I feel less empathy. So it is a process. It is a process in the sense that I'm trying to be empathic and objective when I'm with an offender, but because I want to understand them, but I'm probably creating a little more distance when I have all the information laid out on my desk

and I'm a little bit detached from it. I will say this, though, there's been a couple of times when maybe a handful of times over the years when I've been in a room with someone that's done some horrendous things and it's really hard to muster empathy. I don't know how to describe this, but I guess I'd hesitate to use the term evil, but there's times when I've been in a room with people

where I just feel just a sense of dread. And just, you know, it's like every part of my being is screaming to leave the room because I don't know if I wouldn't call it fear. I would call it uneasiness and dread and anxiety. And it's hard to describe. But, I mean, of course, my job is to maintain objectivity and to, you know, have a facade of being calm. but that's not really how I feel in the room. There's been a handful of times where,

and the crimes are so horrendous that, you know, I've gone in probably a little biased by that, even though I don't want to be biased. But there's just this, I don't know, the best term I think I can use is dread. You know, every part of my being is screaming to get out of that room. Even though I know there's a guard nearby and I have a panic button and all that stuff,

but it's, I know there's just, I can't connect to those human beings and I can't, there's nothing there. And it's frightening. And so, so I hope that answers the question. I think it does. Thank you. And Haley says thank you. She, she wanted to do this line of work once and she's fascinated. But there, again, so many incredible questions coming through. We're going to start with the super chats. We're going to give those priority. And so I want to go back. back to Christy Dunn. Christy Dunn asked, can psychopaths feel fear?

Love your channel. Thank you, Christy, for this question. Yeah, that's a great question. Most don't. Most don't. In fact, I mentioned the research on the triarchic model of psychopathy, which is, fearlessness is one of the main components.

So many don't feel fear, and that's, you know, there's, there's something we call distress emotion, which is fear and sadness. And distress emotions usually allow us to connect to other human beings. So when somebody's afraid, typically we want to comfort them. And when somebody's feeling sad, I think it's a normal human response to comfort them. But psychopaths don't feel that.

So psychopaths really don't have the ability to comfort other human beings when they're in distress. And that makes them different, right? That makes them kind of stand outside of the normal human community in a way. As you pointed out last week, their heart rate goes down. Yeah, I can. Oftentimes in a horrendous act. Yeah, not all the time, but yeah, there is that component, yeah, that many times psychopaths in fight or flight situations and stressful situations,

their heartbeats will actually decrease, which is not a normal response to a high-stress situation. Another super chat question. Tony Crump, by the way, thank you. for your donation. We're so grateful for that. Ms. Sterey asks, Dr. John, if Ethan had been the target, would it change the way you see the killer?

I think so, yes. I think it would too. Right. I think you've seen you process this at our dinner table and when we talk and why you think targets are certain and why you think this. Yeah, I'd have to reconceptualize what the motive would be. I don't think it would be revenge.

It could be, you know, maybe Ethan challenged the person or maybe, you know, it could be some threat to the person's ego. It might stay with that. But certainly if you move in the direction of a profile that's based on sadism, it would change it a lot. I don't know, because there's, It's possible that a profile that sees the killer as being sadistic is also, it might have a sexual component in the sense that a lot of times many murders, even though they don't involve sexual assault, many murders, you know, many murderers have an association between sexual impulses and aggression or dominance. And so that's an interesting, any crime, any murder that it involves a large amount.

of aggression or a large amount of dominance, which is many murders, may have that association with sexual impulses. So if it's Ethan and, you know, it might change it a little bit in terms of assuming that the murderer was attracted to the sorority women and not Ethan, then it might change it a little bit. I wish you could see some of these questions. So, you could pick which ones to answer. There's, again, so many good ones. But Claire asks this, and I actually find it relevant because I'm going to ask, are our listeners a question in return to this?

But Claire asks, do you think the postings of the house layout? And so to clarify, we did share a video of the house layout. on our channel last night for the insomnia crew. And it's a three and a half minute video where we go through it slowly to kind of show it. And we're not the only ones to have posted our version of the layout. We thought ours was good enough to share, but we certainly weren't the first to post a layout.

Kara, thank you so much. And then I also want to thank, by the way, Gene Marie. Sorry, thank you so much for your donation. Jean Marie has been a loyal gem with us since the beginning. Thank you so much, Gene. So Claire's question, going back to the layout of the house, do you think the postings of the house layout that multiple YouTubers have posted, hidden true crime included?

Do you think it's helping the killer to relive the killing experience? And I want you to know, by the way, we learned today that a Google Earth now, the crime scene's now blurred on Google Earth. Oh, okay. But not, yeah, but we still. have these inside maps? I don't, I don't think that the layout would matter much. I think the killer is, the killer had fantasies of these murders beforehand.

And because the killer was obviously emotionally invested in the murders and was there and has vivid, vivid recollections of the murders, I think that's sufficient for the killer. I don't think the killer needs to know the layout. or I don't think the layout would stimulate any recollections. I think the killer has those already and they're prominent. And the killer probably has many, many fantasies or recollections of the murders with or without the layout of the house being public. Thank you.

I am communicating with a News Nation producer who might want to have, who's asking if I could possibly be on tonight. So this is another reason, again, we've been doing our lives early. I told her yes, by the way, John. Okay. So that means we're going to have to... We're going to have to conclude shortly, but I am... I did.

What I just asked her is if she wants to ask our viewers or listeners, anything, or their opinions. So we'll see what she says. With that being said, yeah, usually I'm on Ashley Banfield show when they ask. So everyone can tune in to News Nation tonight. Kara, thank you so much for your... donation in Super Chat. Does this person fear being caught? We refer to fear.

That's a great question, Karen. Thank you. We refer to fear. I don't think they fear being caught. I think they don't want to be caught, but I don't think they fear it. And this is where we start to dehumanize them and call them monsters because it's just easier. It's so hard for me to comprehend not having fear or not having emotion.

It's just a hard thing for me to understand because I'm such an emotional person. So they don't want to get caught, but they don't fear getting caught. Right. And in some cases, there may be, you know, like with the Zodiac killer, the Zodiac is an outlier and highly unusual. But like with the Zodiac killer, there was actually some taunting going on with the police and some one-upsmanship. So that's a case where you have a psychopath who has no fear and in fact would go so far and doesn't think he's going to get caught. He actually wasn't caught. So, but has no fear and has no problem taunting police about how smart he is and how great his

cyphers are and all that kind of stuff. And let me just pull up a couple more questions that we shared. We've had some interesting questions and even interesting comments. Someone actually discussed meeting Israel keys and no warning bells when all. off and that they knew them. That's interesting. Yeah. Right?

It really is. Yep, here it is. Raw Olympia says, Metckees at a party. He never came up on my radar. Yeah. And then they say, it just makes me feel so lame.

I just had no sense of danger around him. I mean, how many date lines do we need to watch with the neighbor saying, oh, just seemed like a regular guy. I would have never thought they would do that. Same thing happened when we covered the Chad Daybell case, right? we covered it from the very beginning when the children were missing and no one can find

him and Chad Daybell's neighbors were coming out. I know, I believe Chad, he wouldn't do anything. The news is wrong over and over and over again. And yet as human beings, we can all see that someone else shouldn't have trusted their neighbor. But then when we're faced with it and it's us,

we're like, nope, they would have never done it. Not them. We trust our own intuition more than we trust others. Well, now I'm going on a soapbox and maybe I'll I'll ask you a question. What's that about? Why can we never see what's in front of us,

whether it's Israel Keys or Chad Debel or this person, you know, this killer, we don't know who they are? Because they're playing a role. They're hiding behind a facade. They're not showing you who they really are. Just like we, you know, we don't know our neighbors that well. When we talk to our neighbors, we're kind of in the neighbor role. They don't really know what we do.

They don't know why we do it. Maybe we don't know why we do it. But I think the short answer is that most people aren't going to show you who they really are unless you are able to dig deep or you have the right context. So many of us will either play the role that were assigned at that moment or will hide behind a facade. And so I think with Dahmer, that was true too. Then one of the neighbors said, oh, he was the nice, it was the sweetest, kindest guy.

And Ted Bundy, everyone. Monday, gentlemen. Red Queen said something interesting, and then we'll conclude, they gave a super chat a wild pack. It wasn't a question. They actually offered to answer some questions, but I just want to share what they said. They said that they are in the top 99th percentile of the psychopathy scale, but they do not come close to the diagnostic criteria of ASPD, meaning antisocial personality disorder. Do you know what that's about?

They said they could perhaps answer some of these questions. And of course, that time has passed, but I thought that was so interesting. I wanted to throw that out there. Yeah, there's a difference. So usually, so, yeah, so antisocial personality is a diagnosis in the DSM-5, the diagnostic and statistical manual that's often used to assign diagnoses, whereas psychopaths or psychopathy is not a diagnosis. So there's definitely overlap.

Usually psychopaths would be a small subset of antisocial personality disorder. So it would be a little unusual to be a psychopath and not antisocial personality disorder. But it's an interesting, I think we would need to know more details to figure that out. But that's a very interesting situation. Yeah. All right. We are going to conclude Barley Ups my announcement. We just are sharing clues.

I am not pregnant. Let's get that rumor out of the way because a few people are asking me. And John would not be smiling right now if that were true. So no, I am not. And so as far as the announcement goes, we've been teasing an announcement. It has to do with books. We will be, it does not have anything to do with NFTs. It's something new we're going to add to our.

podcast to our YouTube channel to our Patreon. We're also going to have memberships very soon here on YouTube. We've been asked, people have been asking and we've been listening. So, so we will share more soon. I'm not quite going to tell you what that is yet, but that those are some hints for you. News Nation is asking our listeners a question. Ashley Banfield wants to know something. So hit this in chat or put it in comments, please. And I'll be going on News Nation tonight. And you can see this. So, question is, what do you think the escape route was for the killer? This is for all of our hidden gems here tonight. Ashley Banfield, News Nation wants to know.

Do you think that they escaped in the front or through the front or back door or somewhere else? Let us know in chat or in comments. And thank you. And News Nation producer says, thank you. And Ashley Banfield says, thank you. you. With that being said, we'll wait. There's a bit of a lull. Dr. John, is there anything else you want to share before we go? Oh, well, I ask you that and then I say, don't wait, don't talk yet. One more thing. There were so many good questions tonight, like always. Please put your questions

into comment. It's hard for us sometimes to go back and read the chat all over again, but put those questions you asked. They were so great in the comments. John and I are making it a tradition every week to sit down and grab a hot drink and read through all these comments together. We love your comments. We love your questions. So please do that. And we hope to get to more of them next week. Remember that we always go live on Friday nights.

Please watch News Nation tonight. We'll be there. Thank you so much for all of your support. Thank you for the answers to the questions you're asking. With that being said, okay, now I'm ready. Dr. John, do you have any last words? I do, yeah. I just want to talk quickly about something, some research being done that furthers the idea of psychopaths or psychopathy.

There's something that psychologists now call the dark triad, and there's something psychologists called the dark tetrad. And basically, so if we're trying to pin down this idea of evil, I think it's a lot of the dark triad, I think it's important to mention this research. A lot of this research was done after Baummeister wrote his book, by the way. So the dark triad is psychopathy, narcissism, and Machiavellianism. Machiavellianism is essentially using people as a means to an end or object to find people. So the dark triad is important because it's research that's essentially saying that if you really want to figure out why people do the most evil things, you kind of have to go beyond psychiazzae.

apathy even. You have to get into other elements. The dark tetrad, which adds to the dark triad, it adds the element of sadism. So that's obviously what we've been talking about tonight. But I did want to mention some research by Scott Barry Kaufman, David Yadden, Elizabeth Hyde, and Eli Sukiyama. They've done some research on the dark triad, and they've also done research on actually what they call the light triad. So there's actually sort of a positive version of that. But they developed a profile based on their research and statistical analysis, there's a lot of different demographic groups. They developed a profile on the dark triad. And I'm going to read that since we're trying to profile evil tonight, the dark triad would be considered, certainly would be considered

within that realm of someone who might call evil or the dark tetraed. I guess they didn't look at that. So they didn't look at sadism. But I'm just going to read their research because they have a profile, actually, of people that fit the dark triad. They say that the dark triad was positively correlated with being younger, being male, being motivated by power, instrumental sex, meaning sex for their own gratification that had nothing to do with intimacy, achievement and affiliation, but not intimacy, having self-enhancement values, immature defense styles,

conspicuous consumption, selfishness, and viewing their creative work and religious immortality as routes to death transcendence. So there you go. That's a problem. of someone who meets the criteria for the dark triad. The question is, if we're going to develop a profile of someone who's evil, how many of these elements would fit the murderer in Moscow and would sadism be a part of it, right? So if we're trying to profile evil, I think this starts moving us in that direction or at least might help. Liz Johnson, thank you so much for your donation. John just asked a loaded question that's great.

I don't know if we have time for that. If not, do you want to answer it next time? Or do you have anything you want to say? He's asking, if you interviewed the Idaho offender, what would you ask? The offender that hasn't been caught, right? Yeah, he says it might be loaded. I would say this is definitely a loaded question. What would I ask?

It all depends on their history. You know, so I've talked about the difference between a suspect-based profile and a psychological profile. So a psychological profile is basically my job, which is to understand someone who's known. So when I develop a profile, it's with a known offender, and I have all their history,

and I do clinical interviews, and I can talk to all the people that know the person, and I can do testing. But a suspect-based profile, which is what we're trying to do here, is an unknown suspect. So in the profiling world, those are called unsubs.

And for those who have watched Mind Hunter, you know, the term is unsub. It would be, my questions would be very different. So if I know who it is, I would, you know, generally speaking, I'm going to approach an interview with some fairly standard questions. But it would really depend on the crime and it would really depend on the circumstances and what I was looking for, the hypotheses I would develop. So most of my questions are, in forensic work, there's always kind of three prongs. There's, you want to use multiple sources, you want to use multiple methods, which means multiple

types of tests, multiple interviews, and you want to develop multiple hypotheses. So my hypotheses really drive my evaluations. So it really depends on the criminal and what they've done and how bad it is and what my hypotheses are about what's happened. How's that for skirting the question? That's great. John, thank you. Liz, thank you. Tiffany, thank you. We are going to take off. I'm supposed to be logged in right now to Zoom. Everyone, tune in the News Nation. Thank you so much. We'll see you next week. All right. Thanks, guys. Take care. We'll see you. Bye. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day.

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