Hidden True Crime - IDAHO FOUR: We Uncover Online Posts by Bryan Kohberger as a teenager as a Teenager—What They Tell Us About the Man Charged with Murder (Hidden Hour Jan 7th, 2023 Live Show)

Episode Date: January 13, 2023

(This episode was previously recorded during a Hidden Hour LIVE SHOW on Hidden True Crime's YouTube page January 7th/8th, 2023.) Hidden True Crime believes these posts to be Bryan Kohberger's account on this forum because side-by-side photos appear to be him at that age and year, and the username 'exarr' is a particular name that is used in at least one email address registered to Bryan with contact information linked to the address of his sibling. Hidden's Lauren and Dr. John Matthias discuss. To watch the live click here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ct_rPSB2Co0&t=2165s  Subscribe for Friday night lives, psychological analysis, and insider interviews for an in depth look at crimes.  Each Friday night we host HIDDEN HOUR, to share our night with our Hidden gems. Please always check in to see what time our Friday night live is airing. DR. JOHN MATTHIAS is a licensed clinical and forensic psychologist with 30 years’ experience in both clinical and forensic work. He serves as an expert witness for the federal government and has consulted on numerous high-profile cases for District Attorney’s offices and defense attorneys in several states. In the forensic area, Dr. Matthias has developed expertise in personality assessments, hidden behavioral motivations, complex trauma and criminal psychology. In the clinical realm, he has worked with numerous victims. He received his Master’s degree in Marriage, Family and Child counseling, as well his doctorate degree, from the University of Southern California.  Dr. Matthias graduated with honors in philosophy from Princeton University, and he won the prestigious McCosh Thesis prize while there. In high school he graduated valedictorian from a large public high school in Chicago where he was chosen to participate in a ground-breaking valedictory study that continues to this day.  Dr. Matthias has been an adjunct assistant professor in the University of Nevada Las Vegas clinical psychology doctoral program since 2007. He supervises UNLV doctoral students on forensic assessments, clinical case formulation, and various therapeutic approaches to clinical work. Your support helps us produce these podcasts/videos. We have some big plans to explore the true crime terrain in a way that no one else has attempted. HIDDEN: A TRUE CRIME PODCAST is: CRIMINAL PSYCHOLOGY REINVENTED. Join us on a journey into the darkest recesses of the human mind and the unconscious motivations that drive human behaviors in order to understand the world and ourselves.  WEBSITE: https://hiddentruecrime.com/ TO SUPPORT:  https://www.patreon.com/hiddentruecrime https://paypal.me/hiddentruecrime https://cash.app/$hiddenTruecrime Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Lately, I've been trying to be more intentional about what I wear, intentional about everything, just choosing pieces that feel effortless, still put together, timeless, but also not overthinking it every morning. It's why I keep going back to quince. Their pieces just make getting dressed easier and I feel so classy. I feel elevated. The fits are flattering. The fabric is really high quality. Everything is wearable day to day. I actually got this really, really, beautiful yellow V-neck midi dress from them, and I paired it with some Italian leather sandals. It's one of those outfits that just works. It feels polished but still comfortable. It's exactly what I've been looking for. What surprises me, though, is the quality for the price.

Quince uses premium materials like European linen, organic cotton, but they cut out the middleman. So everything is priced way lower than you'd expect. Refresh. your every day with luxury you can actually use. Head to quince.com slash hidden true crime for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quince, quince, u I and c e.com slash hidden true crime for free shipping and 365 day of returns. Quince.com slash hidden true crime. Hello, hidden gems. This Friday, January 13th, we hope all of you will tune in to watch NBC's Dateline episode on the University of Idaho tragedy. Dateline was one of the first news outlets to be on scene in Moscow, Idaho, and John and I have been in touch with some of their boots on the ground

producers throughout the investigation. In fact, Dateline asked Dr. John and me to interview with Keith Morrison, which we did twice, once before the arrest of Brian Coburger, as well as after his arrest. We will be part of this Friday's two-hour special. This changes our hidden-hour live schedule for this Friday, but we do plan to go live later in the evening on YouTube to talk about what Dateline shared. We believe that if anyone can tell this story well, it's Dateline, their producer, Shane Bishop, and host Keith Morrison. We'll be watching and hope you will too. Hey everyone, surprise live for you tonight. A big thing just came down and we wanted to discuss it here at Hidden True Crime. We have a friend of the Hidden True Crime podcast that

actually helps us find a lot of information. This person earlier today started sharing some really interesting posts from an online forum. The person is posting in 2011 on a health forum. That would put Brian at about 17 or 18 years old, Brian Colberger. The photo being used is Brian Coburger. The person discusses living in Pennsylvania. The person mentions their age and it would be how old Brian Coburger is. The forum was actually found through using an old email of Brian Coburger. That is how the friend of our podcast actually found this forum is through Brian Coburger's old email address that they had. So with that being said, no law enforcement official has confirmed to us that this is indeed Brian Coburger writing in 2011. We'll let you.

you decide that for yourself. But it was compelling enough with all of those facts that we believe that we have landed upon some earlier writings of Brian Koberger when he was a teenager. How lucky that my co-host is a forensic psychologist. And while he's not feeling too great, he's a little under the weather, we decided to jump on because we felt this was really big news, a really big moment learning the mind of Brian Koberger, let's say just over a decade ago, about 12 years ago. Dr. John, you have read everything out there. We have a scroll. I can scroll the video too, and I can pull up some

different posts that you want to talk about, whatever you want. I can scroll the video. I think it's much more interesting to read than us, and I can share the posts you're referring to. So you just let me know, and I'll let you carry this narrative. How does that sound? Yeah, I think really there's really one page that's critical. There's another page that's very important. I think if people read the entire thing, they get a sense for the overall argument or kind of the overall people get a feel

for what he's discussing and what he's up to, which concerns something he calls visual snow. We'll talk about that a little bit. Also, let me just say that our viewers have a unique opportunity tonight to see us at our most casual sense. since we're jumping on this at the last minute, and neither of us have really prepared for this in terms of grooming. So don't expect to see Lauren and I on Project Runway after this. Kenny said he just woke up to a live chat at 1 a.m. Yes, yes, you did.

And so did day by day. Julie, thank you. And Cherie, they're both telling you to feel better. Thank you. Yes. Thank you. Yeah. So I think this is interesting enough to jump on here and talk about it. But I want to talk about the essence of what he's talking about is what he calls visual snow. It's not entirely clear what that is. According to him, it has to do with migraines and toxins.

It's a medical condition that he believes is responsible for many or most of his problems. In one of the posts, he says, I've had visual snow. He calls it DS since September 21st of 2009. since that I have changed mainly from the anxiety and sense of de-realization and hopelessness. It's interesting that right away, if you read that, right away he's associating visual snow with what I would typically see as emotional or mental health issues. To me, that's a little bit of a red flag in terms of assessing this situation, meaning that I think this might be someone who tends to what we call somaticize.

In other words, they'll take emotional or psychological problems and they'll develop physical symptoms as a result of that. Usually the reason for that is because they're not very psychologically minded. People that somaticize, they don't want to see themselves as mentally ill. They don't want to acknowledge that there's emotional problems or emotional turmoil. So it's much easier to throw everything into this category of visual snow or migraines or whatever it is. And let me say this, I don't want to discount the fact that this could be real. I would need to see his medical records, and there's a lot more I'd have to look at. So this could be very real, and maybe this is the cause of his depression.

But I think there's a little bit of a red flag when he talks about depersonalization and derealization. Those are both dissociative disorders, which associative disorders are always attributed or almost always attributed or caused by trauma. Never once does he talk about trauma, right? He's talking about depersonalization, but he seems to like the insight to really see that there's some trauma driving some of this or potentially there's some trauma driving this, which as we talked about last night would be the bullying. I would start by talking about how a lot of these posts are about visual snow. And notice here, he says, I don't have the reference here, but he's talking about visual snow.

And he says, it's caused by toxins in the body, blah, blah, blah. Then he goes on and he says, tell me how. every test known to man in all in caps, tell me how every test known to man cannot show what is wrong with us. We just see stuff. The truth is there's no test for our toxins. We just need to rid ourselves to them. Visual snow can also be caused by chemical changes. So I think what he's saying there is that he's acknowledging in a way that whatever testing he's had done, it hasn't shown anything.

nothing's shown up. That, again, that would point in the direction of what we call somatic symptom disorders or disorders that tend to be physical manifestations of psychological problems. This, by the way, this type of thing, somatization has a deep history, a long history and psychology going back to Freud. Freud initially treated what he called hysterics, who were doing exactly this. They were exhibiting physical symptoms for what turned,

not to be psychological and emotional problems. And so this type of thing has a very long history in our field. The term hysteria changed to now we call it conversion disorder. A conversion disorder is essentially a neurological, often a neurological condition that has no basis in neurological findings. Or you can have physical symptoms, but after a significant amount of testing, there's no neurological basis for some of those symptoms, right? So that's where it becomes more of a psychological issue.

I don't know for sure if that's what we're talking about here, but it does look to me, this does kind of have the look and feel of that type of thing. It has the look and feel of maybe a conversion disorder or a semantic symptom disorder. So I think what's interesting to me about some of this is this is someone even at a very young age who doesn't really want to look at what might be,

driving some of his underlying depression and some of his underlying mental health issues. He's calling it visual snow and then he's putting everything in that category. In fact, here's another, I don't have the reference here, but it's in the documents that Lauren is posting. It's April 22nd, 2011. Everyone I know noticed visual snow when I told them about it. They always had slight little dots, but not nearly as noticeable. So in other words, he's saying once he talks about visual snow,

everyone agrees with them and they see it. So that's confirmation bias. This is someone who, again, and this kind of fits my hypothesis here about how this is a type of somatization, that he sees visual snow everywhere. He thinks everyone has it. He thinks it explains all his problems. To me, I would hesitate to say that. It's possible that visual snow could be real for him, but to make the association with mental

health and emotional issues, that's a jump. That's a leap. So, right? So you could have visual snow, but that doesn't mean you don't, that doesn't necessarily mean you don't also have underlying emotional and psychological problems. But what he's trying to do here is lump them all together. Right. That's interesting.

Right. As Julie Holden pointed out, visual snow is a very real thing, but it doesn't necessarily cause psychological problems. Right. Exactly. And that's the issue here, is that he's making the leap from visual snow and migrate. And also he's not clear about the cause of this. And maybe it's not clear what the cause is, but he's attributing it to migraines and toxins and diet and chemicals and all this other stuff.

And it's not out of the question that all of that matters and could be contributing to something. But to go from that, to go from visual snow to suicidal thoughts to, well, this is a page he had in the chat. So this is May 12th, 2011. He says, I always feel as if I'm not there, completely depersonalized. Mentally, I experience fog, lack of comprehension at times. I feel like my life is a movie. That's depersonalization. Depression, no interest in activity, constant thoughts of suicide, crazy thoughts,

delusions of grandeur, anxiety, poor self-image, poor social skills, no emotion, capitalized. I feel like nothing has a point to it. He says, when I get home, I am mean to my family. This started when visual snow did. I felt no emotion. And along with the depersonalization, I can say and do whatever I want with little remorse. Everyone hates me pretty much. I am an aho. So that's interesting. I can look at that and say pretty clearly, this is someone with some mental health issues, right? Whether or not the visual snow is real, he's, this is something. This is someone who probably needs some help. And he's young, right?

So we're getting a glimpse into the adolescent Brian Coburger. And, you know, like I said last night, it's actually, to me, it's sad. Because I think if you get him help at this point, if he has a discussion with his parents about what's going on and how he's feeling, which clearly he's not, or he doesn't seem to be having that discussion, then maybe they can get him help. because this is someone who's really distressed. He's experiencing a lot of turmoil. He talks about depersonalization,

but he doesn't realize that depersonalization is almost always associated with some type of trauma. We know that he experienced trauma. So again, I think there's a disconnect. He sees the depersonalization as a function of the visual snow. I'll also post the scroll later, as well as a link to the 100 pages that we have of the entire forum. we have some of the most interesting posts on our Facebook page, Hidden True Crime.

You can head there to see some of the pages that John is reading. And I want to address Colette's question here, too, by the way. Okay. Do you want me to get to that first? Yeah, go ahead. Dr. John, Colette asks, do you think it's usual for him to be so aware at this age? That's a debate. You know, he's aware that he's experiencing mental health issues, but he's not aware of the underlying reasons.

He's attributing all his problems and mental health issues to visual snow. So actually, to me, that makes him unaware. To me, that's actually a lack of insight. The real insight here would be, I'm having mental health issues. I've been undergoing a lot of bullying at school. I'm in a lot of pain. I need to deal with this. I need to feel these emotions, right?

I think whatever else we can say about Brian Coburger at 16, 17 years old is he's very, very depressed. And he's suicidal. And, you know, again, like I said last night, this looks and feels a lot like the profile of a school shooter or a mass murderer. These are the same types of things you see. Almost all, many, many school shooters have suicidal ideation, suicidal and homicidal ideation.

At that age, there's often a fine line between those two. Kenna is saying Brian's mom also requested dim lighting on the dinner reservations when Brian was in town probably due to VS. Very interesting. Thank you for sharing that, Kenna. And again, I don't want to discount the reality of this. I'm not saying that he's not having that. The issue is that he's throwing everything into that bucket. He's attributing all of his mental health issues to that issue.

Well, right. With that being said, before I read Karen's. comment on our Facebook page. Let me share his list of symptoms here really quickly. All right. Here is his list of symptoms that he says is caused by his visual snow. Fog, lack of comprehension. I feel like my life is a movie. De-personization. Depression. Constant thoughts of suicide. Crazy thoughts. Delusion of grandeur. Anxiety. Poor self-image. Poor social skills. No emotion. I feel like nothing has a point to it. When I get home, I am mean to my. family and then as you said right i feel no emotion along with the depersonalization everyone hates me

pretty much i am an a whole repeating what john said but i just think it's really important to share again and then karen says this honestly as someone who has battled severe depression this is heartbreaking to me i can relate i have had moments in my life where i feel these things only i did not have the energy or words to articulate it so clearly i am heartbroken for the young man here who was so clearly reaching out Mental health is a real thing, and I only wish he could have been helped somehow at some point before he got to where and what he did. Yeah, no, that's a great comment. You know, I was actually making that point of the end of last night's live. And I noticed one of the commenters said that I was being way too compassionate towards this guy,

that he's clearly a stone cold psychopath who doesn't deserve any sympathy from us. And I don't, you know, I don't subscribe to that because this is why, because you're seeing. You're seeing an adolescent mind that's in a lot of turmoil that maybe could have been different if there was some type of intervention or help. I'm not in any way saying that I don't think, you know, what he did was horrendous. And, of course, I'm not condoning that or endorsing that at all. But I think from a developmental standpoint, you start seeing how he gets there. And this is a glimpse into his mind when he's much younger that really shows us in many ways how someone could get to the point. where they do commit quadruble homicide.

Right. We have posted some new images that are crisp. We have had a hard time with Facebook compressing, and I will go there after this live and add additional photos as well as the PDF link as soon as I have that up. All right. With that being said, is there anything else, John, you would like that. Yeah, let me go over a few of the, so the page you had up earlier is by far the most important page.

Okay, let me pull that one up again. If you want to glimpse into Brian Colberger's adolescent mind and psyche, this is the page to read. It's from July 4th, 2011. It is a very interesting and compelling statement about his mental health and what he's experiencing and what he's, some of the issues he's having, the emotional turmoil he's experiencing. So I'm just going to pick out a few of these that I think are interesting and relevant. He says, I feel like an organic sack of meat with no self-worth as I'm starting to view everyone as this. I view everything as I would. If I were playing oblivion, apparently that must be a video game, pointless and full of nothing out of reality.

So obviously this is someone with a lot of depression. This is someone with severe depression, I think. That seems fairly obvious. So as I am stuck in this void of nothing, feeling completely no emotion, feeling nothing, I feel dirty like there's dirt inside my head, my mind. I'm always dizzy and confused. I feel no self-worth. I am intelligent, but I feel the opposite. So this is a little bit of what you discussed last night. The feeling dirty, I think that speaks to possibly we talked about some of the potential obsessive compulsive qualities that he might have. We're going to start seeing that in this statement,

by the way, that he feels somehow dirty and that he can't get it out of his mind. He can't scrub it away. Because of that, he feels no self-worth. Here he says, this is a fascinating comment to me, I am stuck in the depths of my mind where I have to constantly battle my demons. Wow. He says later, I hear screams faintly, but I constantly battle away from it. So he's having demons and screaming. And he uses the word constantly. So I think that speaks to some of the obsessive elements we talked about in his crime. You're starting to see them here. as young as 17. The demons and the screaming,

those are, I would associate those with the violence and the aggression that we've talked about. You know, he talks about being mean to his father. He talks about being mean to his family. So I think you're starting to see some of that come out at this age. That the demons,

some people might interpret the demons as maybe psychosis or schizophrenia, but I don't really see that here. A lot of people are asking that in chat, including a mental health professional. they want your opinion. Ultimately, it's too early. I think in order to really diagnose them, I'd have to sit down.

I'd have to do a lot of testing before I could even begin to assess that. But I think the screaming is, he's not talking about him screaming. He's talking about other people screaming. That's what makes it fascinating. He's not referring to him screaming. So I see that as his aggressive impulses.

This is someone who's, the screaming is more, about other people. I don't know if he's, you know, this is a public forum, so I don't think he's going to give you the full story here, but he's definitely holding back. But the fact that he's talking in a public forum about hearing demons, constantly betting demons and being stuck in his mind, having these obsessive thoughts about screaming. I mean, you know, it's troubling. It's interesting. Again, I feel a lot of empathy for him. This is someone who's in a lot of turmoil, and he just doesn't know what to do with it. You know, my hypothesis has been that he pursues criminal justice because he's trying to figure out a way to channel these negative impulses in a positive manner.

That's, you know, we talked about that last night. He says a little bit later on, he says, he's worried that he might spiral out of control and lose myself in the void. So this notion of control is also closely aligned with obsessive compulsive qualities. Obsessive compulsive disorder is largely about trying to maintain control and trying to develop rituals and practices that allow one to master the world or stay in control of their lives. So it's interesting that he talks about control there. He says, I look in the mirror and I see the sickly, remember he's 17 years old when he's saying this, by the way. I look in the mirror and I see the sickly, tired, useless and stupid man in the mirror. He is a complete disgrace. He doesn't even deserve to live. So you're seeing,

we're seeing some suicidal ideation there, obviously. He goes on. He says, I felt like a criminal. Or I felt Aryan alone. I died during those nights. I felt like a criminal. But where was my record? I felt like a criminal.

He's 17 years old. That tells me, again, that kind of suggests, it kind of alludes to some of the things we were talking about last night, that he's trying to fight these impulses. Like, clearly he recognized he's not a criminal. but he feels like one. He feels like he's doing something wrong. He feels like these impulses are somehow negative and out of his control.

I mean, I don't know, you know, most criminals don't feel like criminals until they've committed crimes, but that's not what he's saying here. It's really a screaming into criminality is really fascinating. Again, my hypothesis has been that because he feels like a criminal and because he's having these aggressive impulses that he really is struggling to control, that he goes into criminal justice to try to remedy that. A lot of people are mentioning or mentioning and asking, is this around the time drugs started or when he was on the drugs or did the heroin perhaps, you know, calm some of his pain.

Yeah, I think it, I don't know, we don't know for sure when he started the heroin. One of his friends indicated that it began in high school, but we don't know exactly when. So I think actually it's highly probable he's using heroin at this point. point. Clearly he's not talking about that on these forums. I think he'd probably lose a lot of people if he started talking about his drug addictions. So he's trying to create a very specific narrative here, which is the visual snow is leading to all these problems. He's feeling like a criminal. He's hearing screams. He's got these demons. He doesn't know what to do with that. And he thinks that if he can get rid of the visual snow that somehow he can remedy all these

problems. He goes on to reiterate the screaming. He says, and as if the ringing in my ears and the fuzz of my vision is simply all of the demons in my head mocking me. Again, he's attributing the demons to visual snow and not to something else like aggressive impulses. He says, I fall asleep, but I wake up quickly to bloody screams. Wow. So the screaming and the criminal, like, all of this is, this is not normal stuff for, I mean, I recognize that a lot of adolescents, including myself, love to read Nietzsche and talk about how horrible things are. But that's just kind of normal adolescent musings.

Maybe. Maybe that's somewhat normal. But, you know, adolescent angst, this is not adolescent angst. This goes way beyond that. This is someone suffering from screams in his sleep, you know, presumably when he's awake, that the screams aren't coming from him. They're coming from other people. So I don't know if he's having fantasies.

about harming people at this age, it's possible. Nothing I do is enjoyable. I am blank. I have no opinion. I have no emotion. I have nothing. That's... I have nothing.

And that's how we ended it, right? Let's see. Yeah, that's the last line. And he says, can you relate? So he's looking for people on the forums to connect to that. There it is. That lesson. I have no opinion.

I have no emotion. I have nothing. Can you relate? Again, this is on our Facebook page. Facebook.com slash hidden true crime. I'll have it soon on our other forums as well. Anything else you want to say? I think those are the main points I want to make.

You know, you could, I guess somebody could argue that maybe there's a bit of schizophrenia seeping in here. There's clearly depression. Maybe there's some elements of psychopathy here. You know, there's not a lot of empathy. He talks about lacking remorse. with how he's treating his parents and his family. You know, this picture still needs to be developed.

I do think, though, one interesting thing I think I learned from this is that this is someone, I talked about it last night. You know, when he was confronted by the bar owner about harassing women in the bar, he was stunned. He said, I don't know what you're talking about, right? So this is someone who is not really psychologically minded. He's not really showing a lot of inside. self-awareness.

He's attributed all his problems to a physical cause. And, you know, that lack. Psychologists sometimes call that mentalization. We have different terms for it. Metacognition. It's the ability to stand back and reflect on your life. It's the ability to, you build some self-reflection into your behavior so that you just don't act on impulse all the time.

And I think that lack of mentalization is, it comes back to Hauna much later, but you're starting to see it here. I think this is a critical moment in his life. When he might be able to arrest that, you know, we know that this is a bright, according to his professors and according to people, know him, this is a very intelligent person,

but he doesn't have emotional intelligence and he doesn't have social intelligence. And so he can't assess his mental health problems because it's just too painful for him, I think, and it's a little too complex. So I think it's unfortunate that somebody couldn't take his hand and lead him in the right direction. Yeah. Lita, thank you so much for your question about the blonde-haired, blue-eyed guy he once was.

We will read that right now. Let me read that part about the blue-eyed boy. Is that okay, John? Yeah, that's in this part, right? It's in the one you have up. Mm-hmm. I might reread a couple of the things you said, but I'll get to it. He says, I barely remember my childhood.

I often fear being 80 years old alone and having faint memories of my parents, everything I missed out on. I think about my father, what a good man he is, how I treat him like dirt because I have this condition and I can't take it. I might spiral out of control and lose myself in the void, and I can't let it all go. All of these regrets I predict for my future self, all of these thoughts of remorse. I got this when I was in my stage of discovery. Now I look in the mirror and I see this sickly, tired, useless and stupid man in the mirror. He is a complete disgrace. He doesn't even deserve to live.

I remember when I was 15. I would wander alone at 2 a.m. Everything was so generic. Nowhere felt like home. I saw things that were not there, a different reality. I felt eerie and alone. I died during those nights. I felt like a criminal, but where is my record?

I can't talk without flinching now. I used to be this healthy, blonde-haired boy with blue eyes. And in a few years, I have darker hair and darker eyes. Half the body wait. Where did I leave off? I try to sleep. I try to clear my head, but the pressure won't go away. The pain and depression won't leave.

So I know I reread some of the things you read, but to correlate the blue-eyed boy, I reread. That is a little bizarre. That was a bizarre moment to me. That's the type of statement that might suggest some psychosis, or at least maybe the beginnings of psychosis. You know, clearly you don't go from a blonde, haired blue-eyed kid to a dark-haired brown-eyed kid in a year or two. I mean, I don't know. I don't

know how he gets there. That's a little peculiar. Again, that might start touching on something that's a little deeper, like maybe schizophrenia. But again, I don't know. I can't. I wouldn't be able to get there unless I spent time with them. It's really possible that he might have some elements of schizophrenia. He might have some elements of psychosis. So I don't think we're going to know. We're probably not going to know until somebody gets in there and spends significant time with them and does a lot of tests. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the Internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the

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Anders lear stort. Morning routine. Little enclared when you trys

on the job. Good and good, and industry. It is Happiness at Work

from A. Y. Producter. Many people are asking how you would treat them,

but I think let me guess your answer since I'm since I live with you. You would

have to get in there you don't even know you'd have to give them the test. You'd have to

interview him for several hours. You'd have to do all of this testing spend,

days with him to even understand a type of treatment process. You mean, how would it, so there's a difference between, there's a difference between diagnosing and treating someone developing what we call case formulation, which a case formulation would help me to figure out motivations and that kind of stuff. So, but, right, so that would be a different phase than treatment. Yeah, treatment would have come after the case formulation. Right. I would I treat this? I mean, I think, I think clearly, if somebody was treating him back then, I think clearly they'd have to focus on the depression first and foremost. Also, there's, there's various types of the depression, which are so, so severe and so deep that they, they create some psychosis

and hallucinations. And so the blue-eyed to brown-eyed situation, you know, maybe this is that type of depression. I'm not sure. It's, it's clear, though, that there's, this is a deep depression. here. Right. And I do see this as a bit of a cry for help in the sense that, I don't know, maybe he's, maybe he's hoping some of his classmates see this or somebody. I do think there's a little bit of that here. I mean, he's looking for solutions through solving the visual snow problem, but I think it goes above and beyond that. And keep in mind, this is a public forum. So you're just getting a, you're getting a small glimpse of what's really going on with him. He's not going to give you the deeper, darker stuff in a public forum.

And he's thinking about if he's having homicidal thoughts or fantasies or impulses, he's not going to share that publicly. So, but he's certainly touching on it with the screaming and the demons. And, you know, there's, there's enough there that I think you could, knowing what we know now, I think you can start seeing some of those impulses, some of those violent impulses showing up, even back here. Does this, you know, I'm getting a lot of question, does this change so far what you think about him, Dr. John? No, not really.

I mean, if anything, I think it's, it provides support for the hypothesis I've been developing. I mean, I didn't foresee the somatization issues or the semantic symptom stuff, you know, the, but it's consistent with someone who's not really willing to look at himself very much. consistent with someone who's not particularly self-reflective. So it's not surprising to see this. I think this is pretty consistent with, you know, the psychological profile we've been developing in some of my hypotheses. But again, I think if this is a cry for help, you know, the sad part is that why didn't he get help?

Did he not mention these issues to his parents? I think some of his friends clearly saw it. You know, I don't know. That's always the question. How do you prevent mass murders? How do you prevent school shootings? And as I said the other night, this looks a lot like the profile of a school shooter. We know obviously he's not grabbing a gun and going and shooting up a school.

But this is what it looks like, you know, the suicidal thoughts, the demons, that this is very similar to what we'd expect from that type of profile. Yeah. And I want to clarify, we do not know whether or not his parents got him help or what his mental help. They could have worked to get him help, but they could have done everything that one is supposed to do. So that we're not sure of either. Right. I make, right, that could be a faulty assumption. I'm making the assumption that he didn't get help because, because of the outcome that we now know, you know, 11 years later. Yeah. But maybe he did and maybe maybe he got help and it wasn't sufficient. I don't know. Yeah. Heaven 57. It's hard to feel empathy towards BK since he allegedly

an alive for innocent kids, but I know mental illness is real. A couple of things I want to say to that too is exactly, I can feel sorry or have empathy for the 16 year old Brian Coburger that we're reading about today, the child that is Brian Coburger, but that doesn't mean that I have to have any empathy for him today. I don't right now. I'm angry at him. In addition to that, the reason that we do talk about this and try to understand, the mind of the criminal is not so that we can all have, you know, loads of love and empathy for them, it's so that we can stop this from happening again and again that this is, as you point out, school shooters and the profile of them, we need to understand what is going on.

That's my little soapbox, not my husbands, but those are the two things I want to say to that. Well, and with school shooters, to emphasize that point, with school shooters, a lot of times people say, of course there were signs. Of course there were red flags. We just ignored them. So at what point do you take some of those red flags seriously? You know, oftentimes there are red flags. And, you know, as a society, I'm not sure how we handle that,

but we need to do better, I think. John, you need some sleep tonight. You need some rest. He had a 101 fever before we jumped on. Is there anything else one more time that you would like to say? I think my fever has gone down maybe a little. bit since I've been on. So that's a plus. But obviously, I'm still congested. But yeah, I started getting a little sick after our live last night. But this is really important. And we wanted to share it.

And anything I want to say, are there any other questions, just maybe a few questions if you have any really good questions that we might be able to answer? I noticed several people have mentioned the importance of mental health. And obviously, I'm a psychologist. I totally agree. Yeah. Oh, yeah. This is something to point out. Thank you, Holly, for reminding me new sub here. This is true. John and I are covering multiple cases in Idaho right now for those new door channel. And Idaho does not have the insanity plea. So a lot of people are saying, oh, this is going to help him plead. They don't have the, there is no insanity plea in Idaho. You have to be competent to stand trial. And I don't think you're going to get to. I don't think you'd get to insanity with this situation, even with this information and testing.

I don't think you'd get there because he was stalking them. He showed up 12 times around their house. He was clearly thinking about this crime for a while, so it was very premeditated, unless he's floridly psychotic or there's some type of schizophrenia we don't know about. And maybe there is, I don't know, but he does seem to be somewhat oriented in court. So I think it's going to be hard for him to get to the insanity plea. Yeah, when red flags show up, not everyone does know how to handle him. It would be nice to understand more on how to help people. And then there are some people that try to get help and can't because of a certain state they live in or their insurance.

Right. Yeah, that's not, that's a good point. It's not always simple. It's also not simple. If you, let's say the school tries to intervene, maybe the school guidance counselor, see some red flags and tries to intervene. That's not to say that this person wants help. You know, someone who doesn't have a lot of self-awareness is probably going to reduce. reject help anyway. So if you perceive all of your problems as stemming from something physical

like visual snow, then you're probably not going to do well with mental health anyway. I mean, unfortunately, right? You have to, there's the cliche about wanting to change before you can change. And that's very true. There has to be some belief or desire to change or to seek help for, I think, for help to be effective. So even if someone does try to intervene here, it may not be effective. You say he's not self-aware, Dr. John, but isn't what he wrote self-awareness? I think that's a great question because I would agree with that, that it did feel self-aware. I think in general, the answer is no, because he's, again, he's arguing that all these problems are related to one physical ailment. So I, and he's talking about depersonalization. I mean, he has some insight into some of

his symptoms, but he doesn't have any insight into what's driving those symptoms. He doesn't have any insight into what's causing the depression. He doesn't have any insight into what's causing the depersonalization. Depersonalization is usually a result of trauma. This is someone who's been bullied mercilessly throughout school, but he doesn't ever talk about that. So I think that's what I'm talking about. So it's the emotional wounds that really affect change. It's the emotional wounds, I think, that need to be dealt with. And he's not, he's acknowledging the symptoms in the aftermath of what happens with trauma, but he's not, he's not looking at it at the level he should be. And so while it may seem self-aware, I think the reality is that it lacks self-awareness in the

sense that he's not getting to the underlying causes. He's getting to kind of red hearings, which are this visual snow issue. And again, I'm not saying he doesn't have that. The question is whether that's the cause of all his mental health issues. Lil Nikki, do we know what type of trauma he experienced in what age? Thank you for jumping on and sharing this info so quickly. Feel better, Dr. John. Thank you. We don't know all of his trauma.

No. There's a lot of things about Brian Kopiger we do not know. So the only thing we know definitively is that there was a significant amount of bullying that continued through high school until he lost a lot of weight, which appears to be around this time. The bullying seems to have been severe. We don't know much about his family culture. So, you know, I don't know.

It looks to me like it's a family culture that wasn't really putting a lot of emphasis on emotions. Families that process emotions openly and transparently tend to be a little healthier. So this family seems a little bit shut down. Kimberly, thank you so much for your comment here. I have visual snow, she says. And note a psychological issue, as he mentioned. They do not go hand in hand. It's not that deep.

Okay. That's right. So Kimberly is making my point. Thank you. That Visual Snow does not correlate directly with mental health issues. There were a couple of questions. Thank you to those who write question in caps. That helps me.

Yeah, we want to know more about his family too. People are wanting to know. And so do we. And I'm sure we'll learn more soon. I noticed a comment that someone likes my hat. Thank you. Yeah, this is what happens when you're sick all day. and you haven't done really any grooming and you jump on alive,

you throw in a cap. So I appreciate that. Yeah, this was given to me for Christmas. So at least I had the sense to put out a new cap. Oh, is that the one you got for Christmas? Yeah.

But again, I'm not going to jump on any fashion shows after this. People want us to explain what visual snow is. And I don't think that's our, I googled it. That's about what I know. I googled it after I found this forum and read about it, but we're definitely not experts in visual snow,

but it's essentially for those that are maybe on chat, they can explain it those that experience it, but it has something to do with that upsets your vision that you should see. I don't even want to try to pretend I know, but it sounds horrible. Somebody asked a question about his lack of remorse. He talks about his lack of remorse here

as a lack of remorse towards his family. So it appears that he was treating his family somewhat aggressively and poorly, and he doesn't feel any remarks for doing so. We also know that there were some classmates at the time that he was being overly aggressive with. So my guess is it probably applies to that as well. Cheryl Johnson again, you mentioned this too, actually, John, before we jumped on this live, that there are studies. She said Cambridge University did a study scene that visual thing that was often linked to schizophrenia.

And you mentioned that before we went live. And that's what you suspected people might think that. But you are not feeling that tonight and we discussed that. Well, again, I don't want to rule it out, you know, until I do full testing with someone, you know, I'm going to do an MMPI and a PAI and a roar shot, whatever. You know, I'll give a full battery of tests and it's going to give me a much better picture. So, and obviously sitting in front of someone and talking to them for hours on end,

it makes it difficult for them to mask, serious mental. health issues, especially schizophrenia. So is it, could there, there definitely seem to be some markers or some elements of schizophrenia here, but to go to a full diagnosis at this point, I don't know. I think if that was the case that you probably would see more of his classmates talking about it, how he had bizarre thoughts at times, or he was disconnected from the environment. You know, we know he was a bit of a loner, and he was withdrawn quite a bit, but that's not the same thing as schizophrenia. So could there be schizophrenia here? Yeah, for sure. I mean, I wouldn't rule it out, but based on what we know, this is someone who seems to be reasonably oriented to his environment, and he seems

like he functioned fairly highly in graduate school. None of his classmates seem to indicate that he had bizarre thoughts or bizarre mentation at all. So I don't, you know, I don't know. But it's, it's, It's a good point. The visual snow, assuming that that's accurate, could be connected to some elements of that. Virginia in L.A. made a comment that I think is worth noting. He obviously does feel remorse because he said he felt bad about it. That was an interesting moment for me too. He said he is mean to his dad and he knows he's an a-hole.

But then he says, I can say and do whatever I want with little remorse. So it's a conflict. So it's a conflict. Right. He's got turmoil over it. He's struggling with those issues around the morse. He does and doesn't have it. The question is whether his moral sense becomes more acute or stronger over time or less. I don't know. How about this? Right. Is he diagnosable as a narcissist again too early? I mean, I could speculate. He clearly has narcissistic traits. Yeah, some narcissistic qualities for sure, obviously. I mean, most. obviously. Most murderers who do this type of thing have some degree of narcissism.

People are asking if we have watched his sisters, the movie that a sister starred in, the horror movie, no, we have not watched it yet, but we have read about it. We have seen this particular scene where she acts in it. Yeah, I usually don't make it a practice to watch movies that have Ron tomato ratings of less than 10, but I think we can make an exception in this case. So in fact, I don't even know if it has a rotten tomato rating. If you've read all of Chad Daybell's books, we can watch this movie. Yeah.

I don't know, I don't know why Daibow wasn't up for a Pulitzer, but maybe they'll correct themselves. For those new to our channel, we cover the Chad Daybell case in detail, and Dr. John was actually in the Netflix documentary Sins of Our Mother. about that, a day bell case. That was what our first podcast was about, and we're continuing to see that case through the trial scheduled for this spring. A lot of trial questions for us.

I'm going to be honest, we're not attorneys, although we have like 10 in our immediate family, both our fathers, my brother, my sister. We are a journalist and a psychologist. So people asking if you think he'll testify, people asking how long the trial, How long do you think it'll take for the trial? I don't know with those.

Depends on the nature of the evidence. And of course, they're going to still build a stronger case. They have the shoe print. They're going to try to match that to some of his shoes. I'm sure. Remember, they thought that he was wearing vans. So when they go into his apartment, I'm sure they're going to try to find those shoes.

There's little elements like that that they still need to investigate. and to make their case much stronger. So I think when they start putting those pieces together, it'll be interesting to see what he does. Right. If he gets to the point where the evidence is so overwhelming and compelling, I wonder if he'll confess. But I don't see that, by the way,

but it's something to think about. Lori Shipley Barker says he is loving the spotlight right now. This is what he loves being the center of attention. Yeah. True. Yeah, he does. He's relishing this moment. He, like most mass murderers or serial killers, he couldn't avoid getting on different forums and speaking out.

And at school, he was always clear. He was always the one to tell you that he was the smartest one in the room and he made sure you knew it. So this is someone who definitely likes to be recognized for his intelligence. And this is someone who likes attention and probably can't get enough of it. So true. Nikki is asking, could these online health forum posts be introduced into evidence during trial or maybe sentencing? That's if forensics connect him to the email address. Right.

If forensics connect him and confirm that this is actually Brian Coburger 11 years ago, I would say yes. Well, I think you'd have to ask the question. Would this help the defense or the prosecution more, though? Right. So I think from the prosecution standpoint, the demons and the screaming and those types of things would help their case. But from the defense standpoint, you know, they're going to try to paint this person to someone with serious mental health issues that simply needed help and didn't get it. And, you know, they might use that to seek a lesser charge. I don't think that's going to work, by the way, but I could see it benefiting either side.

Frieda, does a PhD in crime or his working on a PhD in crime relate to this? Yes, it does. And Frida, if you're new to our show, we did a whole podcast on that. Last night, we did a live where we talked about that. So my take on that, Frida, is that he gets into criminal justice to try to manage some of his aggressive and violent impulses. In other words, there's something we call sublimation, which is you take a negative impulse and you transform it into something positive. So let's say, for example,

someone feels a lot of aggression and anger and rage. An artist may take that impulse and create art. And so they're doing something positive with those negative impulses. I think he's doing something similar with his attempt to get into law enforcement. I think he's studying the criminal mind. So he's normalizing it. Maybe in his mind's eye, it's helping him manage some of his aggressive impulses. So I think it's his attempt to really try to arrest some of his obsessive thoughts around violence, probably.

Inquisitive mind, and this is a question of an inquisitive mind. Great question. Did he commit these murders just feel something since he had apparently felt nothing for a very long time? I think so there's a true crime podcast that we're pretty convinced that we're, Brian Colberger called to talk about the crimes. Yes, and we want to do a separate video on that. But yeah, go ahead and talk about that. We're going to, we'll do something on that.

But essentially, it's fascinating because essentially he says two things. He says one. The caller that we believe is Brian, but we'll call it the caller into the podcast. Yeah. So the caller into the podcast, we don't know for sure. It's Brian Coburger, but it certainly seems like him. And people that know him have said it sounds just like him. So but do we have phone records to verify that he called the podcast at that time?

No, we don't. But it's an important, it's a very important call because he says a couple. First of all, he says that he's heard from Sigma Chi's, which is a male fraternity on campus. He's heard from them and they've talked about many times. He says 10 Sigma Chi's have talked about how they can keep. commit murder and get away with it. But the interesting thing about that is, and the host of the podcast, by the way, rightly, questions him,

is like, what? These guys were talking to you about this and you haven't called law enforcement? So, and it seems to stump Coburger. He's like, no, I haven't. But I think you have to assume that he didn't talk to the Sigma Chi. This is him showing us what he's thinking. And what he's thinking is, can I commit murder and get away with it? Can I commit the perfect murder and get away with it?

So that's one of his thoughts. The other thing he says, when the host kind of asks him, why would you do that? Or what does that mean? He says, he believed the Sigma Kais wanted to show, they wanted to prove themselves. They wanted to show people how smart they were. And that's why they would do it. So he's kind of telling us his motive. To those asking about this profile, we have a mod for that podcast.

And why don't you share the podcast name that we believe he called into? And for those wondering and some people saying it's been debunked, it has not. been debunked. It hasn't been confirmed either. But I've listened to voice comparisons myself, and it sounds like him. He did speak in court, and we compared the voices. And then Casey Arndt, someone that knows him from high school and has been interviewed by the media a lot, does believe it is him. We don't know again. But that is, we're not just throwing this out as some random thing. We've definitely been looking into this podcast. So feel free to share that podcast name, too. So to answer the question is, is he doing this to feel something?

I think the reason I'm alluding to that podcast is because he essentially says in that podcast that the reason he's doing it is to prove how smart he is. Let's say that's the motive, or at least that's his motive. It may not be the deeper motive. I think the deeper motive is something else. But if his motive is to show how smart he is and to prove himself, that he's not doing it to experience the thrill or the feeling of killing people. He's doing it because this is like an intellectual exercise to him.

This is like an experiment. So we know that he's studied the criminal mind. He has this survey he's developed with these questions that kind of follow his steps and committing these murders, except for the stalking part, by the way. He left that out. But I think to him this is like an experiment. It's like an intellectual experiment to show how smart he is and to prove that he can get away with murder. And I think he says that.

that on that podcast. And so I don't know. I think they should, law enforcement should definitely verify that that's him because I think that definitely can be used at trial. Yeah. Some people are saying that it's been proven it wasn't him. I'm still not sure. I mean, I've, the voices sound like him. So I'll wait for law enforcement on that one. We'll find out. We'll find out the TREV 757 podcast. Thank you. So some people are saying it's not to bond. It is to bond. It looks like it looks like nobody knows still. That's what I'm reading.

I've read a bunch of the comments and in the end. If it turns out to be accurate, it's a really incredible moment, by the way, because he has the audacity to get out of podcast and essentially lie about what's going on and to let us into his mind to show us what he's thinking about these murders. And what he's thinking about these murders is that he's smarter than everyone and he's going to get away with it. Stephanie B, thank you so much for reminding people. Please join us on Patreon for more discussions with Lauren and Dr. John. We did an episode today for Patreon and we do those.

We're going to start doing those. Every Friday night we go live. It's been about 5.30 these nights, 530 Pacific. We go live on Friday nights and we're working on doing after shows for our Patreon members. So thanks for sharing that. Thank you. Also, dog. There'll be no after show tonight, though, because hopefully I can overcome this cold or whatever it is, flew by next week.

So. Oh, would Colette Cox asked, wouldn't this be similar to BTK or Zodiac reaching out to the media? Similar, but not at that level. BTK and Zodiac were obsessed with, and it was a different, their crimes were committed at a different time, by the way. So like with Zodiac, they literally would, he would send stuff in the mail. He would send stuff snail mail. So I think the game was easier. It was easier to play that game before the digital age.

But yeah, I think there are some similarities. I think he couldn't help himself because he thought he was so smart. He just couldn't, you know, it's always a classic mistake that many of these types of murderers make. But he couldn't just stay quiet. He needed to make a statement. So yes, I think there are similarities. Probably not at the level of Zodiac or BTK, but similarities, yes. And thanks for those who have been sharing what visual snow is in the comments.

And thank you for our wonderful moderators tonight. We're not the only ones up late tonight. Our moderators are later than we are right now. And they're here with us. Thank you. Thank you for the definition here, too, by the way, with off grid with rock bottom wild things. That's the best definition we've seen tonight. Do you want to read that?

Yeah. Visual snow is a form of visual hallucination that is characterized by the perception of small, bilateral, simultaneous, diffused mobile dots, usually throughout the entire field. It sounds miserable. Right. Maybe if it's severe enough, there might be some correlation with mental health issues, but to go from visual snow to suicidal ideation or. some of the things he's talking about.

It seems like a little bit of a stretch, I think. I think just I'd reiterate a point I made last night, which is that this is a glimpse inside an adolescence mind that's very troubled. And from a developmental standpoint, I think you can see how someone like this could go from where he was in 2011 to where he landed in 2022 with these murders. So it's sad. It's a sad story.

And I obviously have zero empathy for what he did. but I do have a lot of empathy for the pain he was going through back then. And, you know, again, it's unfortunate that somebody couldn't have helped him with some of those issues. Thank you. Thank you, everyone, for being here late with us tonight and also those overseas. Those, that is nice and bright where you are during the day. Those in Australia. Thank you.

Until next time, we have more information. We're still going through everything, too, but we wanted to get on and share our basic thoughts. Gray Hughes investigates, thank you so much for being here. Keep on trucking. Have you seen the possibility of a Bundy connection with Chi Omega and going from Pennsylvania to Washington and then Colorado through Utah? We have heard a lot of the Bundy similarities, especially the Sigma Chi or Chi Omega homes. Any last thoughts on that, John? I think we're watching with everyone else to see what other covers.

This is developing so quickly. We're just trying to keep our eyes open for everything new and try to make sense of it. And I think the connections to BTK are also really interesting. And I think it'll be fascinating to see if his former professor put him in touch with BTK. If he had conversations with him in prison, that would be really amazing. That would be a really fascinating thing to look at. Yeah, it is. Thank you for bringing that up, Gray.

And thank you for your support. Thank you so much, everyone. Leave the rest of your questions in comments. John and I do read the comments, and we pick out questions we love and we answer them on air. So if it wasn't answered tonight during this late last minute live, we will take a look at your questions, especially about what we just uncovered and bring you more.

So thank you so much. Thank you, Julie, for being here. Get some rest. agree. Good night, everyone. All right. Good night. Thanks, guys. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making

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