Hidden True Crime - IDAHO FOUR: What Does the Affidavit Tell Us About Bryan Kohberger? Forensic Psychologist Weighs In... (Hidden Hour Jan. 6th, 2023 Live Show)

Episode Date: January 10, 2023

(This episode was previously recorded during a Hidden Hour LIVE SHOW on Hidden True Crime's YouTube page January 6th, 2023. Every Friday night, unless otherwise posted, subscribers/YouTube channel members are able to ask forensic psychologist Dr. John Matthias questions.) BRYAN KOBERGER AFFIDAVIT. To listen to the full affidavit/probable cause listen here: https://youtu.be/pD0OoYiDHRU Subscribe for Friday night lives, psychological analysis, and insider interviews for an in depth look at crimes.  Each Friday night we host HIDDEN HOUR, to share our night with our Hidden gems. Please always check in to see what time our Friday night live is airing. DR. JOHN MATTHIAS is a licensed clinical and forensic psychologist with 30 years’ experience in both clinical and forensic work. He serves as an expert witness for the federal government and has consulted on numerous high-profile cases for District Attorney’s offices and defense attorneys in several states. In the forensic area, Dr. Matthias has developed expertise in personality assessments, hidden behavioral motivations, complex trauma and criminal psychology. In the clinical realm, he has worked with numerous victims. He received his Master’s degree in Marriage, Family and Child counseling, as well his doctorate degree, from the University of Southern California.  Dr. Matthias graduated with honors in philosophy from Princeton University, and he won the prestigious McCosh Thesis prize while there. In high school he graduated valedictorian from a large public high school in Chicago where he was chosen to participate in a ground-breaking valedictory study that continues to this day.  Dr. Matthias has been an adjunct assistant professor in the University of Nevada Las Vegas clinical psychology doctoral program since 2007. He supervises UNLV doctoral students on forensic assessments, clinical case formulation, and various therapeutic approaches to clinical work. Your support helps us produce these podcasts/videos. We have some big plans to explore the true crime terrain in a way that no one else has attempted. HIDDEN: A TRUE CRIME PODCAST is: CRIMINAL PSYCHOLOGY REINVENTED. Join us on a journey into the darkest recesses of the human mind and the unconscious motivations that drive human behaviors in order to understand the world and ourselves.  WEBSITE: https://hiddentruecrime.com/ TO SUPPORT:  https://www.patreon.com/hiddentruecrime https://paypal.me/hiddentruecrime https://cash.app/$hiddenTruecrime Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Lately, I've been trying to be more intentional about what I wear, intentional about everything, just choosing pieces that feel effortless, still put together, timeless, but also not overthinking it every morning. It's why I keep going back to quince. Their pieces just make getting dressed easier and I feel so classy. I feel elevated. The fits are flattering. The fabric is really high quality. Everything is wearable day to day. I actually got this really, really, beautiful yellow V-neck midi dress from them, and I paired it with some Italian leather sandals. It's one of those outfits that just works. It feels polished but still comfortable. It's exactly what I've been looking for. What surprises me, though, is the quality for the price.

Quince uses premium materials like European linen, organic cotton, but they cut out the middleman. So everything is priced way lower than you'd expect. Refresh. your every day with luxury you can actually use. Head to quince.com slash hidden true crime for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quince, quince, q-u-in-c-com slash hidden true crime for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash hidden true crime. Hormonal changes are so hard to see the least. Hot flashes, anyone else. Add in the thousands of hormone disruptors, that are in our environment, and it is even worse. From our water, food, the air we breathe and the clothes we wear, they are everywhere.

But the good news is that when hormone harmony enters the picture, it can help reduce hormonal symptoms in women of all ages. Hormone harmony is a supplement that contains science-backed herbal extracts called adaptogens. The best thing about adaptogens, they help the body adapt to any stressors like chaotic hormonal changes that happen naturally throughout a woman's life. Hormone Harmony is actually part of my personal 2024 playbook. Hormone Harmony makes no compromises when it comes to quality and it shows. For a limited time, you can get 15% off your entire first order at happy mammoth.com.

That's happy H-A-P-P-Y mammoth, M-A-M-M-O-T-H.com. Just use the code Hidden True Crime at checkout. That's code Hidden True Crime. Use that with Happy Mammoth.com for 15% off today. Your old or broken phone can let you down. But at Verizon, trade in any old phone from our top brands and get iPhone 16 Pro with Apple Intelligence with a new line on my plan. And iPad and Apple Watch Series 10. After all, you don't want your old phone to die on you when you're lost.

Perfect. Or for your broken phone to glitch at the worst possible time. Hey, can I get your number? Trade in your old phone for a brand new iPhone 16 Pro iPad and Apple Watch. Visit Verizon.com today. Additional terms apply. Service plan required for Apple Watch and iPad. Oh, Hidden Gems. It's time for another live hidden hour with Dr. John Matthias, who is also my husband as well as an incredible forensic psychologist. I am biased, but I can see. If you feel the same, please give us a thumbs up or a like on this video. Please hit subscribe on the video as well. Today we are going to be talking about Brian Coburger's affidavit, probable cause. I did read this.

that for everyone last night on YouTube, but it is also now on our podcast, where you can download that anywhere you watch podcasts. I'm unsure if people know that our podcast is back. We do both a YouTube channel and a podcast, as well as a Patreon. Patreon.com slash hidden true crime. With that being said, I think we want to dig right in because there is a lot to talk about, again, And the amount of information that came down yesterday was a lot to take in. So I think I want to start, Dr. John, with honestly what your thoughts were reading that affidavit. That led to his arrest. Yeah, it's really amazing.

And so as someone who's read hundreds and hundreds of probable cause statements over the years, this is a very interesting one. And I think my first thought is that I was impressed with law enforcement. You know, I think we should acknowledge the excellent job that law enforcement did and how they found this guy and their meticulous process. And in some ways, it seems like the fact that they were so tight-lipped about the case was a strategy. They identified their suspect fairly early. And I think they were interested to see how he reacted or what he was doing, what his movements were.

So I think in a way, it turns out. that all the complaints about law enforcement were in many ways unfounded in the sense that they identified this guy pretty early. They collected a lot of information in a fairly quick amount of time, including DNA. And so I think we should acknowledge the excellent job they did. And I mean, there's compelling evidence here that this is the right person. But let me say, having said that, I should say that we should start with our disclaimer that the suspect here is still a suspect and he is innocent and true proven guilty. And all of my observations tonight are going to be opinions and speculation. And it's entirely possible that they may have the wrong person. So let's acknowledge

that. There's not been a conviction. And he's still a suspect. He claims he's innocent. Perhaps he'll confess at some point. But at the moment, he's professing his innocence, so we have to respect that. But I think this is a really interesting chain of evidence. And I think law enforcement did a really excellent job. So I commend them. Here, here.

I agree. We were asked yesterday during an interview, John and I will be able to share more about that later, what our first thoughts were reading the affidavit. And I did say that. I said that I was, it was good. I was grateful. And that's what I meant by good, beyond it being tragic and hard and difficult to read. It was very impressive.

And it sounds like law enforcement has a very good case. And they did excellent work. You know, we've talked a lot about this case in, suggested profiles for this person well before Brian Kohlberger's arrest. After reading the affidavit, one thing it left out was a motive. We're still waiting for a motive and exactly how he might have known the victims, but we did learn that he essentially stalked them or was around the house at least 12 times that was stated in the affidavit.

With that being said, what is your profile today? What do you believe this is? So before we get into that, I want to just, before I forget, I want to point out a couple of elements of affidavit here that I think are worth noting and that stand out and maybe speak to a little bit of the suspect's psychological state and some of the things we'll be talking about. But on page four, for those who haven't read it, on page four of the affidavit, the roommate, DM, they use her initials. This is a quote.

DM stated she opened the door a second time when she heard what she thought was crying coming from Zana's room. DM then said, she heard a male voice say something to the effect of, quote, it's okay, I'm going to help you. So. Heartbreaking. Let's start there. That's a great place to start. Thank you because that was the hardest thing for me to read while reading this affidavit was that moment to think that Zana possibly heard that before she was killed.

Zana's awake and she's in tears. I mean, there's a couple of thoughts here. One is I just feel horrible for the family and for all the victims to think that she was awake at that moment and in tears she saw him come in with this knife she was obviously afraid for her life rightly so i don't know what we don't know what she said to him she may have made some type of plea for her life and he said it's okay i'm going to help you it's just a it's a it's probably it's probably one of the most chilling moments i've seen in a probable cause statement because you know this is someone this is someone walking in that room in with an intention to kill you know people have asked me

Does this indicate he's a psychopath? When somebody says that, when they, he's trying to put her at ease, right? He's trying to disarm her, knowing that he's going to kill her. Does that mean he's a psychopath? I think it's difficult to determine that because I believe he's walking into that home, knowing he's going to commit murder. And he's going to do that one way or the other. He's going to do it no matter what.

So his frame of mind is such that he's going to carry that out. Now, by him saying that, trying to lure her, you know, lure her into a sense of ease or, you know, trying to get her comfortable in that scenario, it's obviously manipulative. It's obviously very deceptive. But on the other hand, you could argue, you could go to the psychopath argument, but on the other hand, you could say, well, he was going to do this no matter what. So in order to achieve his goal, he probably felt like he had to say something. He didn't want to fight. If he says something come bad of, she's going to fight back, right, she's going to run. He doesn't want that. So that's what he says. So it's clearly, I think it does seem to lack remorse, obviously. It's a heinous moment.

But in terms of reading into it at this point, I think it's still a little early. Is this indicative of someone without a conscience? It doesn't look good. but on the other hand, this is someone who's very determined and focused and he's going to commit murder and he's going to do whatever he can to achieve that goal.

So I think it's hard to say based on this statement. I know a lot of people have read this statement and said, oh, he's a psychopath. He may be, but it's not entirely clear. You know, my thought when I first read it was if this is his version of being helpful, I'd hate to see his version of being harmful. So, you know, this is...

Or the fact that he said that to calm her down, seeing how scared she was, and then to hurt her after that, I do wonder about it being sadistic. Well, yeah, again, can you read sadistic impulses into that statement? Maybe. But again, I think he's so focused on murder that he's not... He may not be driving pleasure from that.

He may just be trying to carry out his task. He knows walking. The minute he gets out of his car and he heads for that house with his knife, with his knife and his sheath, the minute he does that, he knows he's going to murder someone. Unless the DoorDash guy tackles him or something. But which, by the way, he just, so he just barely missed the DoorDash person.

The door dash person arrived around 4 a.m. he seemingly gets into the house around 404 based on his cell phone records and different surveillance. And so we're talking minutes where the DoorDash person could have prevented this, potentially, or could have been a victim as well, who knows. But it's possible to imagine that

if the DoorDash person is slightly later that perhaps he doesn't get out of the car and he goes home and he reconsidered. You think that's a possibility? I think so. I mean, I do think that he was probably, he'd been fantasizing about this, I think, for a long time. So I think the minute he gets out of the car with his knife and he sees that he can get into the home, he's going to kill people. At that point, I think it's a done deal.

What makes you say that you think he was fantasizing about this for a long time? That was a load of question, but it was a big statement you just made. Because there's 12 instances of that are revealed in the probable cause statement of him stalking. or being around the house and the victims in some capacity going back to June or July. It does seem as if he's clearly interested in that house or he's interested in some of the victims in the house. We don't know those relationships at this point. It's a bit early, but there does clearly seem to be some element of stocking here, which is going to be relevant to what we're going to talk about in a little bit, by the way.

Can we talk about the stocking a little bit too? Is that a good place to go or is there somewhere else? because yeah let's sure let's talk about this talking yeah let's talk about that so again where i'm going is they did not give us a motive but they gave us a lot of detail so let's take the details they gave us discuss those and see if that gets us any closer to what you might think the motive is that was a really fascinating moment for me in the affidavit when they did say that he was around the area at least 12 times middle of the night uh that would imply stalking that they were stocked. So with that being said, what does that mean? Why do people stock? Why is he stocking them?

Well, yeah. So before we get into the stalking issue, let's back up just a little bit. So obviously, you and I have been digging deep into who this guy is and some of his background. We've been reading everything. We've been reaching out to our sources. And we've come up with a lot. I should point out another disclaimer here that we haven't vetted all these sources. So we believe they're reliable. but some of this may not be totally accurate. I think to the best of our knowledge, it's accurate. To give ourselves credit, though, we're not listening to any TikToker say that they know,

no Brian and then taking what they say. So we do do some betting. I want to make that clear. We're not, there's a lot of stuff out there, John, that is so far-fetched. There are so many rumors. Yeah.

So actually, we do do a lot of vetting. We can't confirm some of these, but we're not throwing out random things here. I think that's more important to say, actually. Yeah, I'm talking about former classmates, classmates at Washington State, those types of people. I mean, we haven't talked to them. We haven't asked them. But they've talked to the media. What I'm saying is there are people that are trolls that aren't even real saying they know him.

Yeah, yeah. These are legit people that have given their names. have a connection to him. Correct. And or family members that have... And have shown photographs with him. So we are reading our sources. So let's talk...

Before we get into the stalking, I think there's an interesting component here that needs to be talked about, and that is... I think there's a lot of obsessive-compulsive-type features here. I'm not... So don't hear me as saying this is a diagnosis. I can't diagnose without meeting him

or getting more information. But so let's call them OCD tendencies or obsessive-compulsive tendencies. We know that when he lost weight, he got on a strict vegan diet, and one of his relatives has come forward and said that he was extremely meticulous about his diet. And he had some, her quote is, he had some bizarre eating habits, unquote, which is, I think, she even said, she mentioned, in her discussion of him that he's, quote, very OCD.

So a relative is pointing out that he has these obsessive compulsive qualities. Another friend of his talked about getting up in the middle of the night, and the friend would call him or he would call the friend, and they would go jogging for six or seven miles in the middle of the night. He would apparently jog, at least in high school, a lot and often when he was losing weight, and after he lost weight. And, you know, there's an obsessive quality to that, I think, as well. His heroin addiction, which was reported by a classmate that actually went on a bit of a drug.

What's that? Yeah, Casey Arndt and her brother. They've also been in the media and they've shared photos. Yes, she spoke of his heroin addiction, as did others. Sorry, babe. Go ahead. So the heroin addiction, he was obsessed about drugs. He thought about it a lot.

you know there's another side to that which is that part of obsessive thinking patterns is distress they obsessive thoughts cause a lot of distress and anxiety in fact in the previous version of the DSM OCD used to be considered an anxiety disorder now it's it's in its own category they separated and made it its own category but one of the reasons people do heroin is to self-medicate and they most many heroin users or at least some heroin users self-medicate to deal with anxiety and distress. So again, I think heroin, at least in this case, can be consistent with something like OCD tendencies that he has these obsessive thoughts. He doesn't know how to calm them. And so drugs become a big part of that equation.

And so there does seem to be these obsessive elements to to this suspect, which, brings us to the stalking. Oftentimes in stalking, the stalker will create a fantasy of the victim or victims and they'll obsess over that fantasy. So stalking often goes hand in ham with some OCD tendencies, which is consistent with many of the things people were saying about him. So it's not surprising that he's engaging in this type of behavior because he's probably, whatever happened, we don't know, right? That he could have known one of the victims. He could have been rejected by one of them. It could have been as simple as something on social media, that maybe he reached out to one of the victims on social media and she responded in a curt way or in a

dismissive way and he was offended by that. And she might not, let's say it was Kaylee. Kaylee might not even notice that or think about it, but he's a bit obsessive and he was deeply hurt by that. And we also know from some of his past friends, some of his female friends talked about, one of them in particular talked about how women would reject him and he just couldn't understand it. He didn't understand why. In fact, this particular person, her name is Sarah Healy.

Sarah had talked about how one time he didn't really even know her, but he came up to her in the hallway and he said, hey, you want to hang out? And Sarah was just dumbfounded by that because she had never, talked to him before. She didn't really know him. She knew him as someone that was being bullied. In fact, she said that she recollected that even in high school, that a lot of female students would throw things at him. They would throw bottles. They would throw pens and pencils. They would throw things at him, and he would run away, embarrassed. But Sarah talks about this moment when

he just comes up to her in the hallway and he says, hey, let's hang out. And she's like, uh, awkward, right? So she'd never talk to him before, but she gave that as an example of how we had this expectation that you could just pick someone out that you liked and they would automatically gravitate towards you. So he really struggled with understanding social cues. He really struggled with developing normal, healthy relationships. He was considered a of an outcast. I think it's hard to say how one of the victims or if one of the victims could have offended him. It would be, I think, fairly easy to do that given his lack of social skills or his poor social skills. But I can imagine just a small slight that perhaps he didn't even know them.

Maybe he met them at a party. I don't know. I talk about him showing up at some party where the victims are present and maybe trying to talk to one of them and they turn their shoulder and avoid him and he's offended by that. I don't know. It's going to probably turn out to be something minor, but because he has these obsessive qualities that he's probably ruminating about the rejection, if that's what it is. I speculated it was probably some type of rejection initially. I still think it probably is, but it's easy to imagine that he spent a lot of time brooding and ruminating and obsessing about whatever was going on with the victims, and hence the stalking.

So stalking has, and many stalkers, it can have this obsessive quality to it, and I think you see that here. So, and speaking, so let's talk a little bit more about stalking. There's a researcher by the name of Mullen. He wrote a book in 2009, which he talks about a typology of stalking. it's interesting to think about how this suspect may fit into that typology. There's a category of stalking that Mullen calls predatory. And it turns out the predatory stalkers are fairly rare.

They're not that common because predatory stalkers have no interest in developing a relationship with their victims. In fact, the whole point of predatory stalking in many cases is to plan an attack. it's to inflict some type of harm on the people you're stalking. So that does seem to be possible here that he's kind of hanging back in the dark and observing most of his cell phone pings occurred late at night or early in the morning. So they were occurring between 12, I mean 11 p.m. and roughly 3 a.m. So that's a little creepy, right? He's exactly the kind of person that stalker that would really give you the chills and send, you know, shivers down your spine.

So there are some elements, I think, of that type of stalking. There's another type of stalker called the resentful stalker, which is a stalker who responds to injustice and seeks some type of retribution. It's possible to imagine, in my scenario, that he was rejected by some slight from the victims or one of the victims. And he has a lot of resentment, right? We talked about the idea that one of his grievances is the rejection. So I think, you know, it's possible. It's easy to imagine that he's falling into a few of these categories that Mullen identified. The other categories Mullen identified were the rejected stalker.

The rejected stalker is the most common. The rejected stalker is someone who's in a relationship. The relationship ends. the person feels rejected and they pursue the relationship and try to get the relationship back. I was going to ask that. When you said that predatory was the most rare, I was like, well, what's the most common? Most stalkers are seeking to repair a damaged relationship and they think that the stalking will somehow, you know, it'll somehow improve the relationship. I think most stockers lack the self-awareness to understand that if you stock someone, it's probably not going to,

help the relationship, but they do it anyway because they feel desperate. And again, this is where the obsessive type thoughts come in, that the rejected stalker usually has a lot of dependency. They develop a lot of dependency on the victim, especially if they have been married for a period of years. They probably feel somewhat helpless and stalking in many cases feels like their only option. And then you have, there's a couple of other categories as long as I'm talking about them that that Mullen talks about. The others are, there's an intimacy seeker, and there's an incompetent suitor stalker.

The goal of both of those is similar. They're both, there's probably quite a bit of overlap between those, but that type of stalker basically wants a relationship. So the stalker may or may not know the person they're stalking, but they fantasize the possibility of a relationship. So there's this fantasy of, if this person knew me, or if this person, if I had some contact with this person, then of course they'd want to be in a relationship with me.

So the stalking in those cases is based on the fantasy that there could be a relationship. And again, it's possible to imagine that the suspect here could fall into one of those categories, especially the incompetent suitor, in the sense that the incompetent suitor just doesn't have the social skills to develop relationships. so the incompetent suitor sees stalking as a way to remedy the lack of social skills

and believes that somehow stalking will potentially lead the other person to fall in love with them. So for most of us, that seems a little crazy, but these are folks that really just don't have many social skills and they don't feel like they have a lot of other options. And his lack of social skills and his inability to read social cues might kind of put him in that category as well. So I think it's not clear which category he would fall into, but I do think that the common element would be that he has these obsessive,

compulsive qualities. Those qualities make everything here worse. He has these qualities. He probably has these revenge fantasies. He has probably, I talked about this last time, but he has some violent and aggressive impulses. He's struggling to manage those go hand in hand with the revenge fantasies. And they're very distressing to him.

He's very anxious about all these fantasies. And so he starts stalking and eventually he becomes overwhelmed by these distressing thoughts. And he feels like he has to act in order to purge the thoughts or, you know, to feel better. Which ironically, after the murders occurred, many of his classmates know, noticed that he was becoming more animated. Many of them said that he was, one of them said that he came to life. Another said he was chattier. They're all noticing that this change in behavior is occurring in him where he's actually,

he seems to come to life after the murders, which is consistent with this idea that he's obsessing over this. It's causing a lot of grief and turmoil for him. He commits the murders. And that's where compulsions come in, by the way. So obsessions or thoughts, compulsions or behaviors. Obsessive thoughts, so take hand washing as an example, right? Excessive hand washing, we all know that.

The obsessive thoughts are, I've got germs, I can't get rid of them. Those lead to compulsions, which are behaviors, that's where the hand washing comes in. So you have these thoughts, you have germs, you want to get rid of them, you wash your hands endlessly. That's obsessive-compulsive disorder. In this particular case, it's easy to imagine. that he's having some violent fantasies or thoughts and he feels like the only way he can reduce those thoughts or purge those thoughts is through some type of violent behavior.

I think that's consistent with this type of obsessional view of him that he commits these murders and now he feels better. And people are just puzzled. Like, you know, this guy was a week ago, this guy was absolutely morose and lethargic in class and now he's come to life. And the reason he's done that is because at least temporarily, I think those distressing thoughts have been remedied.

If we could a request really quickly, if we could stop the questions and comments about the two surviving roommates, it is clear that many people have questions about them and their actions, but we're not going to cover that on this podcast and the back and forth is triggering to a lot of people right now.

But we understand everyone's questions when it comes to them. I think I would just say on that issue, I would just say that, you know, I have a lot of empathy for what the victims went through and the families. The surviving victims. Yeah. Yeah. The roommates, the families, all of the guests.

You know, there's a lot of questions about, and there's some great questions here. And I want to say even the questions about the roommates. were great questions. It's just not something we can talk about here. A lot of people are saying, oh, this is not who we thought. That this is a serial killer. This is the boogeyman. This is somebody that's likely killed multiple times before. Pick this house at random. Do you

agree? I'd say, no, I disagree. I think this is exactly who he thought he was. This is essentially a school shooter with a knife instead of a gun. And the reason I say that is because, well, let's back up. I'm going to read a quote from, here's a book called The Violence Project, How to Stop a Mass Shooting Epidemic.

It's by Jillian Peterson and James Densley. They've done some excellent research on mass murderers and school shooters. They, let me talk about what, they see is the first step to create a mass murderer. This is on page 16 from their book. They talk about, they say, we have found that there are patterns in the lives of mass shooters that we see again and again. Understand these patterns is we feel the key to unlocking solutions. The first pattern and the most important, which is the cause, which is the underlying cause or the root cause of many

mass shooters, this is where it begins. Here's what they say first. Many mass shooters experience childhood abuse and exposure to violence at a young age, often at the hands of their parents. Parental suicide is common as his physical abuse, sexual abuse, domestic violence in the home, and wait for it. Severe bullying by classmates. This early exposure to violence and unaddressed trauma feeds the perpetrators' rage and despair later in life. Mental health concerns such as depression, anxiety, paramed. and paranoia commonly developed during adolescence and are rarely identified or treated. So if we take that premise based on their research and dig a little deeper,

obviously this is someone who's been severely bullied. And many of his classmates have talked about that. They see him as an outcast. They see him as a bit of a social misfit, which is precisely how school shooters appear and come across and mass murder. So usually school shooters are a little younger, but that's consistent with Brian Koeberger. The bullying, by the way, occurs over a period of many years. So we're not talking about a lot of bullying will occur over a period of a few years.

But for him, the bullying continues right up until his junior or senior year of high school. And in a fairly unusual twist, a lot of the bullying is occurring from females. So we know that school shooters and mass shooters often feel very emasculated. They feel as if their masculinity is damaged in some ways. And so this is classic stuff. This is someone who's clearly been bullied to the point where he feels, you know, emasculated and he feels less than masculine. And so that's very consistent with how we would see a school shooter, by the way.

So I think you have to start with that. And I would say that the bullying leads to revenge fantasies. So you have someone, we just talked about it, you have someone with some obsessive qualities. That's probably preceding any of the bullying or probably simultaneous with the bullying. And then you have someone who's being bullied and he thinks obsessively about revenge. he's having violent fantasies and impulses. He's also developing a very deep sense of inadequacy. This is someone who, like most mass shooters and school shooters,

has really damaged self-esteem. He has a damaged identity. He feels extremely inadequate. And that is a prescription for later problems for sure. In the book I just talked about, most of this begins with abuse and trauma. Here, I don't know anything about his family, but the bullying in and of itself would be sufficient to create enough trauma to create revenge fantasies, which become obsessive, which then become eventually in his life, they translate into violence. Wow. Thank you.

So in other words, a school shooter without the gun, but with a knife. Right. Well, yeah, and you could say, I could even argue, right, this is. is a school shooter and or a mass murderer who's training in his gun for a knife. And even more than that, this is a school shooter who is studying criminology. He knows what he probably knows what school shooters look like. He's probably interested in that, right? So if he's going to commit a crime, he's not going to use a gun. Most school shooters use guns. They perform their violence in public because they like the attention so they're on a stage for him he's trading in the gun for a knife he's doing it in private and he's doing it under the cloak of darkness he's doing it very very late at night

which is quite uncommon for most skill shooters obviously they're doing it in broad daylight so he i think that he understands that if he takes a gun and goes in there in broad daylight he's going to get caught and that would probably be your typical murder suicide, but he wants to get away with it. So he changes up the ammo of a typical school shooter to fit something that might throw investigators off a little bit. I think that's why he does it. So he understands what these folks look like. He changes up the MO so that he's different, right? But in terms of the underlying psychological profile of a school shooter or a mass murderer, And we talked about this when there was no known suspect, but this person is very, very similar to those types of folks.

You know, very similar. I have quite a few things. Bear with me here as I ask you a lot of questions and mention something. So I'm getting a lot of texts with questions that are great in chat. We're keeping track of them. I'm seeing so many good ones as well as an interesting. text I want to share right now because you just said you just explained similarities and a lot of people are saying but he wasn't a school shooter. I am communicating with somebody that knows

Timothy Haslett right now. Okay. Timothy Haslett is someone whose story we've been covering and we're going to continue covering. In fact, his Tuesday is a big day for the Timothy Haslett case and I would recommend everyone getting caught up on that case on our playlist, our Timothy Haslett playlist. That is the gentleman who a woman escaped his home, a homemade torture chamber in his basement and escaped, said she had been tortured, raped, kidnapped. Timothy Hazlitt is behind bars now awaiting. We'll see what happens there, and we're going to recover in that case.

She is stating this person that knows Timothy Haslett that you are explaining Timothy Haslett to a to a T right now. according to this person that knows Timothy has lit fairly well. So with that being said, I want to bring that up because people, there's a lot of comparisons to make here. And this is somebody else that kidnapped women. We believe that there are. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day.

Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet. And then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers, spammers, even stalkers. It's why you get endless robocalls and why ads seem to follow you everywhere. That's where ORA comes in. ORA actively removes your data from broker sites

and keeps it off. They also instantly alert you if your information shows up in a breach or on the dark web. But ORA goes beyond data protection. With one app, you get a VPN, antivirus, password manager, spam call protection, dark web monitoring, and even up to $5 million in identity theft insurance.

All backed by 24-7 U.S.-based fraud support. Other companies might sell just credit monitoring or just a VPN. ORA gives you all of it together at the same price competitors charge for just one service. Start your free trial today at ORA.com slash remove. Protect yourself now at ORA.com slash remove. Other victims here tortured women into, with that being said, maybe I can lean, you know, this wasn't a school shrewder, but what is similar with all of these people that you're seeing?

These horrible criminals, terrible crimes. Yeah. So he wasn't a school shooter in the sense that he didn't go into his high school and kill a bunch of students. That's true. My point is that he looks like that. That his pathology, his developmental pathology, how he develops, looks a lot like a school shooter. However, and this is where it gets interesting. This is a big question is why didn't he do that?

Why didn't he act out these violent fantasies earlier? And this is why I think he didn't, because he had an interest in law enforcement. He had an interesting criminology. He actually talked about becoming an Army Ranger at some point in high school. So he was interested in the military. And I think what was going on, psychologists called the sublimation, which is sublimation is when you take a negative impulse and you transform it into something positive. So you take, let's see, you're having aggressive impulses or fantasies, you take that aggression and you channel it into something positive like artwork, like joining law enforcement.

Certainly law enforcement is a profession where aggression might be expected in certain circumstances. But now you're using it to catch the bad guys rather than to kill people. What's one financial lesson you learned the hard way? I'll go first. It's not too late to start saving. Today's episode is sponsored by Acorns. Acorns is a financial wellness app that makes it easy to start saving and investing for your future. You don't need to be an expert.

Acorns will recommend a diversified portfolio that matches you and your money goals. You don't need to be rich. Acorns lets you get started with the spare money you have right now. And one of the best things about acorns is they allow you to see projected growth on their website. Simply go online, type in how much money you'd put in and see the potential future balance of your account. up now and join the over 13 million all-time customers who have already saved and invested over $22 billion with Acorns. Head to Acorns.com slash hidden true crime or download the Acorns app to get started. Paid non-client endorsement compensation provides incentive to positively promote

Acorn's T-1 compensation provided. Investing involves risk. Acorns Advisors LLC and SEC registered investment advisor. A few important disclosures at acorns.com slash hidden true crime. Does anyone else find themselves saying, I feel way older than I actually am, or I feel way younger. Did you know there might be some truth behind that feeling? That's where true diagnostic comes in. With their true age test, you can discover your true biological age, plus get insights into health risks for heart disease or Alzheimer's, even your mortality. I just ordered my true diagnostic test, and while nervous, I'm looking forward to what it may tell me about my own health so I can take control of things now. When taking tests pertaining to my health, I want to make sure it's scientifically

backed and true diagnostic is. Their true age test is based on peer-reviewed research from scientists working at Harvard, Duke, and Yale. And by tracking your biological age, you can actually see how the changes you make, whether that's exercise, diet, or sleep will affect your health over time. Ready to find out your biological age? Right now, our listeners can get 20% off their entire order at True Diagnostic.com by using code hidden true crime at checkout. That's true diagnostic. T-R-U-D-A-G-N-O-S-T-I-C.com. Just use code hidden true crime to save 20% off.

Plus, if you subscribe, you'll get an additional 20% off. Discover your true age today. Has losing weight and getting healthier been on your mind lately? Have you heard about groundbreaking GLP-1 treatments like OZMPIC and WeGOVi? With Effecti, getting access to these powerful medications has never been easier or more affordable. Starting a new medication is always a bit scary when you aren't sure what to expect. And using Effecti makes it so much easier with their hands on support, which gives unlimited access to licensed doctors so you never have to jump through hoops for help with any dosing questions or just other support when you need it. Effecti uses rigorous testing and their products are backed by research so you can rest assured.

Ready to level up your weight loss game? Right now, my listeners can get $50 off of GLP1 weight loss treatments at Effective. dot com with code hidden true crime at checkout. That's effecty.com, eFF-F-E-C-T-Y.com, and use code hidden true crime to get $50 off your first month of GLP-1 weight loss treatment, no hassles, no memberships, and no hidden fees. Get started today. So I think that Brian Colberger talked about this a lot with some of his classmates, that he wanted to be a police officer or he wanted to be in the military.

and I think he was able to use those violent and aggressive impulses, and at least for a while, he was able to transform those into this thought that he could go into law enforcement, that he was able to kind of work with those and manage them in a positive direction with this belief or hope that he could have a career in law enforcement or criminal justice. And so I think that held him at bay for a long time. I don't know if that dream crumbled at some point. I'm not quite sure what happened. I think it's possible that he applied for an internship at the Pullman, Washington

Police Department. He was rejected from that. And thankfully, or maybe not. I don't know. Maybe if he gets that internship, this doesn't happen. Maybe if he gets that internship, he's able to take those aggressive, impulses and channel them in a positive direction.

I don't know. That's possible. Whatever happened, whatever happened, he might have become completely overwhelmed by his violent impulses and he felt the need to act. It could have been that. It could have been a lot of things, but I think

when he loses weight in his senior year in high school, he changes. People say that one of his friends said he was a hundred percent different person. He became more aggressive. He'd be became more of a bully. So psychologists call that identification with the aggressor.

And that means that what happens essentially is that the bullied becomes the bully, that the person begins to identify with all the people that were bullying him and becomes that person. So I think that also made a difference. I think that held him off from acting violently for a while because now rather than being bullied, he was the bully. And I think that bought some time. He was able to channel some of those aggressive impulses, not in a healthy way,

but he was able to get rid of some of them because he himself was becoming violent. So, or at least me, he was calling some of his friends cissies, which is interesting, right? That shows some of the masculinity issues. He got involved in kickboxing. One of his friends said he was always looking for a fight.

So he was getting, in fights with some of his fellow classmates, I think some of that could have staved off his violence. But I think ultimately he was trying to deal with those violent impulses in a positive fashion because he envisioned the career in law enforcement. He was looking at a way to channel those in a positive way. It obviously failed, but he didn't need to pick up a gun and start killing people because he was able to deal with that as long as he could. I think he was. in a kind of a positive way. You know, can you explain the difference?

You did this in a past episode, but again, with those people, can you explain the difference? I mean, you kind of already did, but just to reiterate, a mass murder is different, again, than a serial killing. Right. You're killing multiple people at once. They asked you this yesterday. I asked you this, as did those interviewing us, and they said, would you have killed again? And when I asked you, you said, oh, yeah, oh, yeah.

Maybe, because then it gets into, well, is this a serial killer? Or just let us ask you that. Would he do this again if he hadn't been caught? I think once, let's assume this was his first, let's say this was his first set of murders. Let's say that he'd never done this before. I mean, it's possible he has. I'm sure law enforcement are looking very closely at cold cases in that area where female victims, young female victims have been murdered with a knife.

If those are cold, I'm sure they're really looking very closely at, you know, since he's been lived in that area in June or maybe even going back to Pennsylvania, yes, I think that if this is his first, if these are his first homicides and he gets away with it, I think that he might feel better for a little bit, as his classinates observed, but eventually those violent impulses are going to come back. They're probably going to come back stronger. He's already had a taste for it. He got away with it.

This is someone who also thinks that he's really smart. This is someone who classmates said, wanted to tell you and show you how smart he was all the time. Not only the smartest guy in the room, but the smartest guy is going to tell you is the smartest guy. So there's no humility. You know, there's a lot of hubris. Occasionally, there's stories of him getting into fights with all students,

at least one occasion, a female student, left the room in tears because he was relentless. and wouldn't let go of his point of view. So this is someone who has something to prove. He wants to show you how smart he is. And he likes attention, by the way. I think he's a bit attention seeking, although he can be withdrawn.

So many of his classmates said that he's a little bit of a loner and withdrawn. When he's getting into intellectual arguments, he's going to win. He wants to win. He wants you to know he's smarter than you. And he likes the attention of being recognized as the smartest one. in the world. So I think that combination of elements, I think if he gets away with this, he feels like he's unstoppable, he feels like he's going to outsmart law enforcement, his violent impulses are going to return, he's already had a taste for murder. And so, you know, to use the

cliche, the cat's out of the bag, I think he's probably someone who comes back and does it again, for sure. Which, by the way, which by the way is when law enforcement, not to be critical here, they did a great job. But when law enforcement said there's no threat to the community early on, now that we know who this guy is, there was a threat to the community. I mean, I think that he probably wasn't going to act out again fairly quickly, but psychologists or law enforcement sometimes call it a cooling off period, which is the time between different violent acts,

given a sufficient amount of cooling off period where he felt like he was safe, I think that he's probably going to return to more violence. Little Nikki, I have to say, I agree. In some ways, I feel like you wanted to be Dexter, too, working for law enforcement by day, a violent criminal in the dark. We've had three people, Liz Johnson, the Canadian Beaver. And there was one other person that have asked, Dear Dr. Babe, do you think he left the sheath behind on purpose as a red herring,

not knowing his DNA was on the snap? Someone else just simply asked if you think he left it on my first. purpose simply because he wanted to get caught, but many people are asking this. If he did want to get caught, it would have been unconscious. I think consciously, this guy, again, this guy thought he had something to prove. He was going to show you that he could commit the perfect murder. He was probably relishing the fact that law enforcement seemed to be stumbling with no suspects. I do think it was a rookie mistake.

I don't think it was intentional. In fact, there's some evidence, this is jumping the gun a little bit, but there's some evidence that he was in a chat, a major Facebook group. Law enforcement's looking into it, but he was in a large Facebook group talking about the crime. And he frequently talked about the fact that the sheath was probably left behind, which, by the way, nobody would know but him. He seemed to be lamenting the fact that the sheath was left behind, which means that it was a mistake.

He's referring to the Papa Roger theory that is on our Facebook page. It has not been confirmed that this person, this Facebook page is anyone. That's why you said you're jumping the gun a bit, but it is of interest. This person was on the largest Facebook page about this group and brought up a lot of interesting things, including the idea that the suspect might have left a sheath behind. which we know now is fact. So we do not know who this person is. And so we are speculating on if this perhaps could possibly be him.

The name is Popper Roger. And that is on our Facebook page. If anyone wants to go and delve into it, another thing that was interesting is when someone called him out saying, why in the world would any murderer leave a sheath behind? He got defensive. And I actually found that really interesting. He said,

what you just walk around with a knife that wasn't covered and they were like well yeah if i was going to go commit a crime at four a end in the morning like i mean so we do not know if this is him again go check that out decide for yourself it's on our facebook page we shared it there m k grubber asks i think he was obsessed with your crime and wanted to be a subject studied in criminality classes as his legacy i'm gonna i'm gonna go forward a little bit more and share some other questions people are asking Did he study BTK? Did he try to, you know, people have speculated on Dexter. Other people are speculating on if he studied Ted Bundy.

What are your thoughts? I mean, maybe that's a little bit different than what M.K. Gruber is saying, but what are your thoughts on those things? You know, I think it's too early to tell. I think he's clearly studied different murderers. There is an indirect connection to BTK in the sense that he studied. We know he studied with Catherine Ramsland, who's a well-known. forensic psychologist who wrote a book on BTK. She was with BTK for 10 years,

studying him to write her book. So whether she put him in touch with BTK, I don't know. You know, it's interesting that one of BTK's diagnoses was obsessive-compulsive disorder, by the way. So BTK was someone who had a lot of obsessions about violence and crime. So I don't know. There are some really fascinating parallels.

I just don't think we know enough. I think over the next few months, we're going to learn a lot more about that. But I do think, in answering that question, I do think that he reminds me, I talked about this in our last live, but he reminds me a lot of Russ Kalenkov from crime and punishment.

When I heard that he was in criminal justice, that's the first thing I told Lauren was, this is just like crime and punishment in the sense that I think he really believes he can commit the perfect murder. And in that sense, if he does commit the perfect murder, murder and he's not caught, that it would be studied, just like BTK.

People, even though they didn't know him, they were fascinated by BTK. And John Douglas, the famous criminal profiler, was after BTK for 30 years and was somewhat obsessed with BTK. And, of course, quite happy when they caught him. But I think there's that element that he, because he knew crime and studied crime and thought he was smarter than everyone else, I do think that in a way. way this was his experiment, that he believed he could pull off the perfect crime and there was nothing that was going to stop him. And in fact, in his research, he talks about looking at the thoughts

and feelings of criminals. I think that he wanted to examine his own thoughts and feelings about his crime. Did he feel anything? This is someone who, by the way, struggled with emotions. Many of his friends said that he was completely emotionless. So maybe part of this is him wanting to feel something, which again, you know, that would go back to psychopaths really struggle with emotion. So they don't feel much. So I think there's that component. I do think that he may have been interested in some notoriety, that this was a bit of an experiment to see if he could prove himself, he could show how smart he was, and that perhaps his crime would be studied because he did so well with it. There's one question.

That is pretty loaded, John. Okay. You can answer it. And I think that it's a good question for someone like you and a male to answer. Hatch House Adventures asks, why do girls who are bullied not turn into murders and school shooters? What's up with white males and trauma turning to them into shooters and murders? And I want to say not all school shooters are male. That is true.

emphasize that and too, but most are. And, you know, the person texting me about Timothy Haslett is also saying that he was also bullied. Or is that a whole other hidden hour? Should I save that for like No, I can give a quick answer. So I think some of that's cultural. I think many younger women, whether they're adolescent or younger, they tend to internalize that type of thing. So in other words, I think you'll see females tend to become more depressed and more anxious. And so that's what we call internalization, that they're not acting out their issues. They're internalizing them,

whereas males tend to externalize. Males tend to become violent. They use violence as a means of expression rather than depression, that men, for the most part, struggle with sorrow, madness, and some of the distress emotions that we've talked about, fear, men would rather act out their emotions. They'd rather get violent and aggressive and blame people. And so I think that in general, and some of that's cultural, you know, one of the commonalities of mass murderers and school shooters is that they do feel emasculated. They

oftentimes they do feel like their masculinity is damaged in some way. And so violence becomes a way to repair that damage. That if they're violent, they're going to show the world that they're really men, whereas women, depression seems to be more common with women. That's not to say that women don't act out. They do. Women do externalize. They do get into fights. They do get violent, but not as much as men. So by far, men externalize and act out more than women. And that's why you see more, almost exclusively males resorting to school shooting or mass murder. Thank you. Zuli asks a question. Do you think he was planning on only killing one person that night?

Yeah, that's a good question. That's something I've thought about a lot. I think there's really, we talked about this earlier. So we still haven't seen anything approaching a motor from police. But I could make an argument that Kaylee was still the target, I think. Kaylee was the only one of the victims that was single. Kaley was probably someone that he may have. have followed on social media, I don't know, but he may have had an interest in her primarily.

And when he walked into the house, he probably learned quickly that Zana was still up. According to the roommate, we know that Zana was still up. So Zana was an immediate threat. And he, in his mind's eye, he probably had to neutralize that threat. So, and of course, Ethan was with her, so he had to neutralize that threat too. So I think if Kaley was the target and I think that's highly probable that the other victims were in the wrong place at the wrong time. He had to knowing that Zana was awake, he had to neutralize that. So she was in the wrong place at the wrong time. And of course, Maddie was in the same bed with Kaylee. And again, wrong place at the wrong time. He probably felt like he had no choice but to murder her alongside

side of Kaylee. But we don't know. It's also possible that he may have heard about the victims, that he was targeting the house. I've talked about this a little bit. We call that murder by proxy. So murder by proxy is something that applies to Elliot Roger, which, by the way, if the Facebook name Papa Roger turns out to be him, think about that for a moment. In some ways, he's paying tribute to Elliot Roger. Papa Roger, right? I don't think that's a coincidence. So I wouldn't rule out some connection to in-cells here either completely. There could be some of that. But I do think that, so the other option would be that he's targeting the house because he feels like the victims represent something that he can't have, something that he wants,

something that he desires, which is to be a part of the in-crowd, to connect to this group of sorority women that are fun-loving and partying, and that's quite the opposite of how he is. So they represent something that is almost impossible for him to imagine, which is what Elliot Roger did. He attacked a sorority or wanted to. And so he is essentially murdering something that he can't have or that he resents. And so the, the women, the young women and Ethan, the people in that house represent things that he wants, but also detests at the same time. There are so many good questions again, everyone.

If I do not get to your questions tonight, stay with us next week. And maybe we'll even answer a couple of these on Patreon, maybe even later tonight, John, because there are some genuinely incredible questions. I'm like, oh, I do. So maybe we can answer some of these tonight. But here are a couple questions. Do you think these two kind of go together. So I'm going to read them together.

Jocel says, question, could Coburger have been triggered by rejection by the police when he applied for the police department internship, then planned an attack in their jurisdiction as a form of one upmanship, outwit them, outwit them. Although it wasn't in their jurisdiction. It was because he was in Washington and applied to Pullman and he committed the crime in Moscow, Idaho over state lines. But then old Gris says, do you think his academic achievements were not bringing him the acceptance and respect he was looking for?

Both of those, I feel like go hand in hand with some type of unfulfillment or being rejected. You know, talking about sublimation, which is, again, that idea of taking a negative impulse and transforming it into something positive, I think academics was that for him to some degree too. I agree. That's an interesting observation. He was struggling to fit in at Washington State. And I know we know that some classmates say that he made some derogatory comments about women and the LGBTQ community. And so he was ostracized fairly early in the program. So it's certainly possible that that's true, that he wasn't getting the kind of acceptance and people weren't embracing him

in a way that he thought for his brilliance. And so maybe he did feel rejected there. He almost certainly felt rejected by the Pullman Police Department. So those were two avenues that he was pursuing to, I think, to manage some of his violent impulse And yes, I think those areas became a struggle for him, and they probably didn't help in any way. But what was the last straw?

You know, we don't know. I think it's probably a combination of all these elements. Yeah, Abby says sheath feels like an amateur hobbyist who goes through the first tennis lesson dressed for Wimbledon. He had a murder kit. He thought he checked all the boxes from his studies only. I mean, right, right. you know, clearly not the smartest person in the room. He applied for those in the probable cause.

I thought it was a fascinating part. The internship we're talking about that he applied for with the Pullman Police Department. That's in Washington where he lived was he felt that rural police departments needed help in forensics and in their operations. I mean, I don't know what you call that. irony, narcissism, or pride, or what. But I mean, just wow, you know. There's so much hubris here. You know, there's, there's, there's clearly a lack of self-awareness. There's the story from the, the bar owner in Pennsylvania about, so he would frequent this bar in Pennsylvania.

The staff noticed that he was making, they identified him as making inappropriate comments to some of the female customers. And they, the bar actually, so they would enter notes about some of his behaviors. And it got to the point where the owner of the bar had to talk to Coburger about his behaviors. And so the owner sat down and say,

hey, look, Brian, you know, we're getting some complaints here. And the staff were kind of concerned about the way you're treating. some of our female customers. Could you rain it in a little bit? And Coburger's response was, I don't know what you're talking about.

So Coburger finished his beer and stormed out. And he basically had no awareness, even though he'd been going there for several years. He had no awareness that his behavior was inappropriate. So this is clearly someone who isn't very introspective. He's not very self-reflective. And he doesn't have a lot. lot of self-awareness.

Kyrie sent a super chat early on, earlier, and asked, what do you think he's thinking right now? What are his thoughts right now? Yeah, that's, that's a tough one. Well, I think the best way to assess his mental state is his lawyer, whether this is believable or not, but his lawyer said that when his lawyer first met him after he was caught, his lawyer said that he was completely shocked and he was arrested. So that would go hand in hand with this idea that this is someone who has no self-awareness.

I really think he didn't believe he would get caught. And when he was caught, he's probably, I think he's a little traumatized because he really didn't think they'd catch him. And certainly the police promoted the. that narrative, right? They promoted the narrative that the case was going cold and they didn't have a lot of leads except for the white elantra. And even though obviously they did, they knew who this guy was fairly quickly. So I, I think he's going to be in denial. I think he's probably not going to have a lot of thoughts because I don't think he's very self-reflective. So I think he's

probably in denial. Laura, I think that you were spot on. She said a few live streams back. She asked this question. I feel like his urges caused him to enter into criminology, maybe as a way for him to keep his curiosity at bay, thinking that this would satiate his impulse. And the rest was cut off. So I'm not sure exactly what the question is.

But I think, do you want to say anything to that, John? Yeah, I agree. That's my idea that this is a type of sublimation. that keeps him from being violent much earlier. I mean, in a way, classmates talk about him getting into fights with other students. In a way, he was violent. He just wasn't violent at this level. So we know that he has these violent impulses,

and we know that there's probably some revenge fantasies going on. But obviously, I don't think many people wouldn't have predicted this level of violence, this level of rage. Shelly, Shelle, I agree. If he is indeed Papa Rogers, my guess is she says that the theories put forth are a mix of truth and red herrings. I agree. You still don't know, you know, right, what's true and what he's saying to throw people off. Yeah, right.

Good point. Good point. I think what, which also, by the way, Shelley, that's, you're identifying one of the major problems with his survey. and that is that criminals are deceptive. You know, when you do a survey asking criminals their thoughts and feelings, you're not going to get legitimate answers most of the time. So that's why I think his survey is so interesting because I think it really is a reflection of his thought processes and his biases.

Because if you ask a criminal why they did something, number one, they probably don't know. Number two, if they do give you an answer, you know, how honest are these folks? Most criminals are not the most honest folks on the planet. So there's so many ways in which that survey is flawed, but I think that kind of speaks to what you're saying there. Gee, the Bird's Nest, thank you for your hard work.

I live for your great analysis and opinions. And then they ask, do you think he attended one of the many parties they had? I wouldn't be surprised if he did. Yeah, right. I wouldn't be surprised at all. I think that could be part of the stalking. And, you know, in fact, it's not hard to imagine that could be part of his defense. That the reason we don't, we presumably the knife, which is his father's DNA or the sheath had his father's DNA on it.

But they might find other DNA in the home too. We don't know all the DNA they have in the analyses, but maybe part of his defense is that he was there for some parties and this is mistaken identity. I don't know. it'll be interesting to see how he tries to defend himself. Shelly asked, is quitting heroin make obsession more intense? We kind of went over that a little bit, right? And then... Well, actually, one of his classmates answered that.

So even this was a high school friend that said that even after he stopped doing heroin and he had lost a bunch of weight, he was still obsessive. with his weight and he was still obsessed with drugs. So clearly the thoughts didn't go away. I guess you could argue that if he has these obsessive thoughts, that if heroin is a way to suppress them or at least calm them to some degree, stopping heroin would clearly or potentially increase

the frequency of those types of thoughts. People are asking about the sheath having his father's DNA on it. And I will say, I read it like three or four times and we were asked about that yesterday, it's a little confusing to me. Some people are saying they didn't read that. It is confusing. You can read it as they compared his DNA to his father's DNA,

or you can read it as his father's DNA was on the button snap. It isn't exactly clear. So to those that didn't read it that way, you're not the only ones, but a lot of people are. It's, you know, I think that they likely, I think it was his DNA that they compared

to his fathers from the trash in the garbage. But it is confusing how they worded it, so I'm not quite sure. The first time I read it, so they initially say that there was some DNA found on the button on the sheath. And so I just assumed when I read that the first time, I thought, oh, it's his.

But then when you read the last paragraph, I reread it and the last paragraph tries to clarify it. Yeah, it's not totally clear. Right. But the last paragraph seems to be saying that they matched it, then they matched it to his father's DNA. But yeah, I agree. It is a little confusing.

Right. So in other words, if you didn't read it like that, we're all in the same boat, correct? Or maybe, right, maybe his DNA, yeah, right. But either way, the way they got the DNA, how about this? This is Colette Cox. What she just said is accurate. They confirmed his father was the suspect's, father through the DNA they got.

So that we know. Yeah, people are saying, yeah, had to be read a few times. And it is incredible. What I also noticed about that, I want to say, is that they did that within 24 hours. That's what I noticed. They got something out of the trash on one day. I can remember the day and the next day they had that confirmation. You've sort of been answering this throughout the entire podcast tonight.

but a few people have asked it and Haley Manigold is asking how is shame connected to this crime do you think the compulsive thoughts cause shame any thoughts on that or anything you want to end on tonight shame is a huge shame is a hugely important part of this in the sense that if if I when I refer to his deep-seated inadequacy I think what lies behind that is shame so I would in this case I would equate shame with vulnerability or weakness or helplessness. I think those are all things he experienced. Those are all things that probably had some influence on his self-esteem, his sense of inadequacy, his emasculation. And so, yeah, they play a huge role, which also shame is closely aligned with narcissism.

I haven't thrown that term out because I'm hesitant to go near diagnoses, but his hubris, let's use that term, his hubris was seemed to be pretty significant and I guess we could call that narcissism. I'm not diagnosing here, but his hubris was quite immense. Again, he always felt like he had to prove

himself. He felt like he had to show how smart he was all the time and much of that could be a reaction to or a response to this deep-seated shame he was experiencing as well. And on that note, by the way, there was a back in the late 90s, there was a guy, there was a psychiatrist.

I think he's still around. I don't know if he's, I don't think he's active as an academic, but James Gilligan wrote a book called Violence and he engaged in a fairly significant study where he examined several hundred criminals and he was trying to figure out the underlying basis for many, much of their violence. And his conclusion was that it could all be traced back to shame or some variant of shame. So shame often plays a large role in many types of crimes and much criminal psychology. I think it's probably not talked about enough, but I appreciate that question.

Yeah, that's an excellent question. So Gilligan really promotes that idea. His book is worth reading. Thank you, Deborah, for your great comment. I work in forensics. She states, there was a single source unknown DNA profile on the sheath. They then pulled his parents' trash, recovered a male DNA profile, which was his father's DNA that was compared. That is how I read it.

Thank you. Michelle, she's asking a question that I think we can answer when it comes to the roommate. Why did he not kill or harm the surviving roommate after she saw him? Or did he see her? Or do we know? He saw her. Apparently, according to the statement, probable cause statement, he was. walked right past her. So that's a really tough question. My guess is that he had accomplished his

goal, which may not have been to kill four people. It may have been to kill one person, but whatever it was, he had done that. And he probably knew that he had a small window to get in and out of the house without being detected. So it is, it's one of those incredible moments that where life and death hang in the balance. It's got to be an absolutely frightening moment for her, for sure. I can't even imagine. But I think that under the circumstances, he probably feels like he did what he set out to do.

He showed how smart he was. He probably knew that if he attacked her, it would take time, that it might not be as clean, that he could contaminate the crime scene even more. And he may have believed that after his crime, crime. He may have started to experience a little bit of, he may have been de-escalating a little bit after a lot of adrenaline was flowing with the other murders. And so, you know, it's probably some

combination of those that the risk reward wasn't correct for him. And he had already accomplished his goal. So I think he probably just wanted to get out at that point. But he could have. I mean, in his state of mind, anything's possible. at that moment. You could argue that he was on a high and he was amped up. And so what's another murder? He probably would have relished it, right? But for whatever reasons, he didn't.

He chose to leave. And thankfully, he did. But it's a tough moment. It's a moment that could have gone either way, I think. Collette is asking, and she is saying you can answer this later on Patreon. so I'm going to say answer this later on Patreon because there are quite a few I want to answer and we do have to run.

Dr. John, can you answer this later on Patreon? What do you think of him being a harsh grader and failing every student than suddenly they're getting 100%. We'll talk about that later. So that's a little teaser. For those that would like to join our Patreon, we'll do a few more questions later tonight

because we'd like to stay here actually all night with y'all at patreon.com slash hit into crime. Is there anything else you would like to conclude with? I am processing your question. I think so. I want to say that in some ways, this is the story we see over and over with mass murderers or school shooters, right?

That trauma, just a huge negative impact of trauma and how it affects children, how it affects our communities, And I think it's something we need to take seriously. And we do, but maybe we need to take it more seriously and figure out ways to really help kids that need help. And identify these kids earlier with mental health issues if we can and kids that are being bullied. Because I think, tragically, in some ways I could argue, I'm not sure if this guy's a psychopath yet. So let's not, you know, I don't want to judge that.

But I could argue that this is in some ways a story of Breaking Bad, that this is. As a kid, it was fundamentally a good kid who came from a decent family and he wanted to get in law enforcement. He had good intentions. And then he went through this trauma for years and years and years and everything changed. He held out as long as he could. And then when he couldn't hold it any longer, he succumbed to the violence and it becomes a tragedy for everyone. So sadly, I see this as a story that initially had an array, you know, array of hope. and then it becomes a tragedy.

And maybe that's the definition of a tragedy as it ends badly for everyone. But I look at this and I think maybe someone somewhere could have done better. I wish they had. Maybe this could have been stopped in some way. And so it's really tragic all the way around.

Dr. John, thank you so much. Thank you, babe. Thank you. Thank all of our hidden gems, our moderators. Thank you guys. Thank you. to our moderators. Not only are our moderators working really hard on the chat. They're sending us things. They're incredible. And thank you. Thank you to all of the moderators. We wouldn't be able to do

this without you. For those that are interested in a lot of the background of the crime or learning more, there's several really great Facebook groups out there. One of our moderators actually is part of the Facebook group or helps to run it. a moderator. It's the Idaho for True Crime Underground and we have gotten a lot of our information that we research there.

It's called the Idaho 4 True Crime Underground, Moscow. Murders. Thank you everyone for tonight and until next week. We'll see you. All right. Take care. Thanks, guys. Thank you. Good night. Yeah, sure thing.

Hey, you sold that car yet? Yeah. Sold it to Carvana. Oh. I thought you were selling to that guy. The guy who wanted to pay me in foreign currency, no interest over 36 months? Yeah, no. Carvana gave me an offer in minutes,

picked it up and paid me on the spot. It was so convenient. Just like that. Yeah? No hassle. None. That is super convenient. Sell your car to Carvana and swap hassle for convenience.

Pick up fees may apply. Now's the time for a great deal on a new Honda. It's time to take an adventure. with rugged capability and commanding style. Check out the Honda Ridgeline, pilot or CRV. For a limited time, well-qualified buyers can get a 3.9% APR on a 2025 pilot or a 2.9% APR on a 2025 Ridgeline or CRV. See Dealer for financing details.

Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers, spammers, even stalkers. It's why you get endless robocalls and why ads seem to follow you everywhere. That's where ORA comes in. ORA actively removes your data from broker sites and keeps it off.

They also instantly alert you if your information shows up in a breach or on the dark web. But ORA goes beyond data protection. With one app, you get a VPN, antivirus, password manager, spam call protection, dark web monitoring, and even up to $5 million in identity. theft insurance, all backed by 24-7 U.S.-based fraud support. Other companies might sell just credit monitoring or just a VPN. ORA gives you all of it, together, at the same price competitors charge for just one service. Start your free trial today at ORA.com slash remove.

Protect yourself now at aura.com slash remove.