Hidden True Crime - Inside the Mind of Jake & Rebecca Haro - What Really Happened to Emmanuel?! | Psychologist Reacts

Episode Date: September 1, 2025

Dr. John is here to break down the Baby Emmanuel Haro case and what factors he thinks may have contributed to the alleged murder of Baby Emmanuel Haro. About Hidden True Crime: What started as a simple conversation at their dinner table became a captivating podcast. Join the dynamic duo of Dr. John Matthias, a criminal psychologist, and Lauren Matthias, an investigative journalist, as they delve into the psychological facets of unthinkable crimes every week. Their unique perspectives and in-depth analysis offer a fresh take on true crime storytelling. Thank you for your support through sponsorships, subscribing, listening, and becoming a Patreon member at Patreon.com/HiddenTrueCrime Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Lately, I've been trying to be more intentional about what I wear, intentional about everything, just choosing pieces that feel effortless, still put together, timeless, but also not overthinking it every morning. It's why I keep going back to quince. Their pieces just make getting dressed easier and I feel so classy. I feel elevated. The fits are flattering. The fabric is really high quality. Everything is wearable day to day. I actually got this really, really, beautiful yellow V-neck middy dress from them, and I paired it with some Italian leather sandals. It's one of those outfits that just works. It feels polished but still comfortable. It's exactly what I've been looking for. What surprises me, though, is the quality for the price. Quince uses

premium materials like European linen, organic cotton, but they cut out the middleman. So everything is priced way lower than you'd expect. Refresh. your every day with luxury you can actually use. Head to quince.com slash hidden true crime for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quince, quince, u I and c e.com slash hidden true crime for free shipping and 365 day of returns. Quince.com slash hidden true crime. At my bank, I was literally getting pennies using wallfront. Cheching, there's this much that I'm getting an interest and I didn't have to do anything. Clients like Angela. earn up to 4.2% APY on their cash with the Wealthfront cash account. Get started at Wealthfront.com.

Client was paid $1,000 for their testimonial, creating a conflict of interest. Outcomes vary. 3.3% base APII as of January 30th, 2026, as representative variable and earned on funds swept to program. $150,000. $1.65,000. Direct deposit $1,000 a month and fund an investing account for a 0.25% increase. Cash account offered by Wealthfront Brokerage LLC, member FINRA, SIPC, not a bank. That baby represents helplessness and vulnerability. And in order to avoid that feeling at all cost, you take that feeling, Jake Harrow, whoever, potentially Jake Harrow, he would take that feeling and he transforms it into violence and aggression and abuse to stop that child from threatening him. And so that's what's going on here.

Hello, Hidden Jams. I know that many have been waiting for this episode. I am with my co-host, back with my co-host, Dr. John Matthias. He's a forensic and clinical psychologist, forensic also known as criminal psychologist. He's also, for those of you knew to hidden true crime, he's also my husband, full disclosure here. And I have been covering closely the Emmanuel Harrow case, as well as the arrest of this little baby boy's parents, Jake Harrow and Rebecca Harrow. and many have had questions that I have always stated, we are waiting for you. Dr. John, we are waiting for my co-host to answer those questions.

This is a heartbreaking case as baby Emmanuel, seven-month-old baby Emmanuel is still missing. And his parents alleged originally that he was kidnapped in the Big Five parking lot in Yucpa, California, after a stranger said, Ola knocked Rebecca unconscious and then when she woke up, baby Emmanuel was gone. Well, since that time, charges have been brought forward to the couple, charging them both with murder of this baby boy and horrendous past convictions have come out about Jake Harrow,

who abused another daughter of his. and as police stated in their press conference, those charges should have brought a much, a much longer sentence to Jake Harrow. In that press conference, they stated that if Jake had been behind bars, maybe Emmanuel would have still been alive. Of course, yes, many have noted he wouldn't have possibly existed because Jake would be behind bars for life.

I get that. But the point being, that baby Emmanuel would still be here if Jake Horo was not able to hurt this baby. But then we hear, and these are all the questions I have for you, John, so I'm laying it all out. We also hear that what we thought, I speculated with our friend on the Tira that Jake would throw Rebecca under the bus. But in his recent interview from behind bars, he says he loves her. and Rebecca is allegedly standing behind her story still very, very confusing what's going on. And again, they have both been charged with murder and investigators stating that they believe that Emmanuel suffered long-term abuse at the hands of his parents.

So with all of that being said, John, we have been waiting for you. help this, help us just process this. Why would anyone do this to an infant? Let's start with the definition of philocyte. I think we have a lot of new listeners and viewers. And although we talk about philocyte all the time, I think it would be important to back up and explain philocyte a little bit. So philocyte is the murder of a child or an infant by a parent. There's different types of phylliside. There's what's called neonaticide, which is the murder of a child in the first 24 hours of the infants after the infant's birth. There's something called infanticide, which is the murder of a child within the first year.

There are different classifications of philicide, depending on what research you look at. We'll be talking about that in a little bit. But there's also differences. there's fairly significant differences between maternal filicide, which is filicide murder of a child, infant by a mother, versus paternal filicide, which is the murder of an infant by a father. So this is an interesting case because potentially it presents some combination of maternal and paternal filicide, depending on how you think this murder went down

or this alleged murder went down, if in fact there is a murder, I think we can presume at this point there probably is, and there's certainly murder charges. But I think looking at the different types of phyllicide will start helping us make sense of what happened here based on the research, the different types of filicide that people categorize by type.

And I think if we look at those different types, we can start to kind of maybe figure out what's going on here. There's a lot of clues we have based on, for example, Jake Harrow's past history of severe child abuse. So that's going to be an element. That's going to be a big element in terms of interpreting this case. I will say up front that my analysis is going to be probabilistic. In other words, there's no certainty here.

I don't know who did what. know who contributed more or less to the harm of Emmanuel, right? Like, we don't, we don't know the details. But what I do know is the research and what I do know is the theoretical approach, the theoretical approaches to understanding philocyte. And I do know how those would fit in this particular case. And I think based on that, we can make certain assumptions. We can develop certain probabilities of what seems most likely. And so that's the direction I want to go in. Okay. That makes sense. Thank you. So one thing I would start by saying is that Philicide is fairly uncommon.

It's a rare event. And so when it does occur, it grabs attention. It grabs media headlines oftentimes, as this case did, as this case is continuing to do. So that's, you know, that's the good news that it's rare, that fortunately a lot of children aren't being murdered by their parents day in and day out. Right. The bad news is that when it happens, it's horrendous and the most vulnerable of vulnerable human beings are being killed, murdered by parents, which is unthinkable.

The other issue is that from a research standpoint, because philocyte is fairly rare, it's very hard to research this area because there's just not a lot of data points. a friend of mine who is in major baseball, he's in major league baseball and he looks at analytics in major league baseball. He used to joke to me that, you know, I would talk about, oh, this is, this is great. I have, you know, a research study here that has 250 subjects that committed murder, right? And he would laugh and say, in major league baseball, we don't even look at something until there's at least a million data points. So, like, you know, you know, you. There's a big difference between doing analytics and a sport like Major League Baseball where data is plentiful and it's accumulating every day versus something like Philicide where it's very hard to get data because it's a rare event.

And again, fortunately, it is a, thankfully it's a rare event because that means that parents aren't murdering their kids all the time. So I do want to say I will preface this analysis with that. disclaimer that we don't the research is somewhat limited we don't have a lot of data points and however I think the research is pretty solid I think it's good and I think it can certainly guide us in this particular case just doing a quick overview of philicide in general male victims are more common than female victims and one of the reasons that's true are believed to be true is because oftentimes male victims, malchildren, infants, babies are perceived to be more aggressive than females. And therefore, they bear the brunt of more aggression from

parents. They bear the brunt of more extreme discipline from parents. So baby boys, baby males are at higher risk of suicide than females. Another thing that is true about, philocyte or that the research shows that female perpetrators are much more prevalent than mal-prepetrators. Really? Wow. They're more prevalent because the first major category of philicide is called pathological philocyte.

We've talked about this a lot. Pathological filicide is typically what we associate with postpartum psychosis or postpartum depression. So mothers who have given. birth and they fall into depression or even more extreme, they fall into postpartum psychosis. They're at higher risk of harm in their kids. Okay. So mothers more likely to be the killer.

The vast majority of, yeah, the vast majority of philocides are female perpetrators. The mother. Oftentimes, right, that fall into this category of pathological. phyllicide, which would include postpartum depression, postpartum psychosis, severe mental illness, such as severe depression, clinical depression, and most of them are biological mothers. So you and I, we know these cases because we talk about them quite a bit, but much more so than mal perpetrators, by the way. So I think, so the reason why this is important to talk about from the start is because if

if the majority of philocides are committed by females and females specifically with postpartum psychosis or severe depression and those are biological mothers then we'd have to look at Rebecca we'd have to look at Rebecca and say okay

if this is the norm if the probabilities say if the odds favor phyllicide occurring with biological mothers who have psychosis, does she have that? Right. Can we implicate her in some ways, or can we say that she seems to have some involvement because she's suffering from postpartum psychosis? And from what I can tell, I could be wrong, but she doesn't seem particularly psychotic

to me, at least in the interviews she's done, she's able to fabricate, or maybe I shouldn't face back, she's able to come up with this account that involves a kidnapping. It's fairly detailed, right? That doesn't seem like someone who has psychosis. And stick to it. She sticks to it. Sticks to it, right. She's, you know, the police have said that there are some inconsistencies in her story. We don't know what those are. But typically someone with postpartum psychosis is not going to have a very coherent story and they're not going to stick to it. And they're not going to do news interviews because they're probably not going to be, their thoughts aren't going to be organized enough to engage in, you know, a coherent discussion with a newsperson, a reporter,

like yourself. So, so that's what the research shows. And I don't, you know, so the question for me, at least with Rebecca, is, does this seem to be true for her? I mean, what, and that's not to say, by the way, that females don't engage in these other types of phyllisides. which we'll talk about in a minute. But I don't really see. And I don't know. I mean, honestly, you're not going to know if someone has psychosis or clinical depression, unless you's, at least from my standpoint,

unless I have the ability to sit down with them and do an interview and probably some testing, right? There's certain things I would need to do to make these, to give a diagnosis or to validate some of these assumptions. making. So maybe she fits this category, but just from what I've seen, that's not the way I would, you know, that's not the way I would lean. That's not the way I would, I don't really, again, I could be wrong, but I don't really think she fits this category particularly well. And as far, from what we can tell, there's been no talk of postpartum psychosis with her, right? We just have the story. She, she went to, was it football?

practice. Football practice and then to Big Five to buy. Right. So we know she's driving. We know she's functioning as a mother. She's doing motherly things, right? She's taking her kids' places. You know,

a mother that's on antipsychotics might be able to do that but there's no indication to hear that she is. So my thought on this is that pathological feels side may or may not be in play here, but it seems like it's probably not as much in play.

And therefore, I think you'd have to say, okay, if Rebecca had a role in this murder, it may not have been the lead role. It may not have been the primary role in the sense that postpartum psychosis doesn't seem to be driving this. Clinical depression doesn't seem to be driving this, right? The severe mental illness doesn't necessarily seem to be driving this. And so, and so that would, that would start leading us in the direction of other types of philocyte, which would be. So another, so there are, there are many classifications of Philicide, by the way. So I'm just going to, I'm going to talk about a fairly simple classification system of philocyte that was developed.

by a few researchers. Here's the book. I don't know if you can see it. Domestic homicide. Domestic homicide patterns and dynamics. This is an amazing textbook in the field of forensic psychology. It's by Liam and Conrad. I've referenced this book many times,

but they essentially classify philicide into, three types of three bins. So I talked about pathological philocyte mainly mothers. There's something else called retaliating philocyte, which most often occurs when you have revenge towards a partner. This is sometimes called the Medea complex from the Medea in Greek mythology who murdered her children because her husband was unfaithful. You and I have talked

recently about retaliating philocyte. When we talked about Travis Decker, which just an update on Travis Decker, they found some bones. They found some remains around the area where they were doing a search for Travis Decker that they may, they seem to believe maybe Travis Decker, which would be consistent with my analysis that I thought he probably wasn't alive. I don't know if he took his life, but retaliating suicide is exactly as it sounds. It's typically males, mainly fathers, retaliating against spouses or partners for rejection, for divorce. In the case of Travis Decker, it was divorce.

His wife filed for more enhanced custody of the children. I think that was kind of the tipping point for him. So the main issue with retaliating filicide is revenge. And then we have this third category of filicide. which is sometimes called accidental filicide or sometimes called fatal abuse. And accidental filicide is usually what occurs when extreme discipline goes too far. So it's often the unintended result of excessive physical maltreatment. So typically in these cases you have children that have what we call battered child.

syndrome, which is essentially severe child abuse. And battered child syndrome is something that is continual. It's ongoing. It's not a one-time event. So that's interesting, right, in the sense that here we have a guy, Jake Harrow, who not only has previous child abuse conviction, but in that particular case, it was clear that his argument by the way back then so is his daughter from a previous marriage Carolina his argument was that he that she she came home one day she was sick she

had a temperature he gave her some aspirin he went to the sink to wash her and he accidentally dropped her and she fell on the divider in the sink and because of that he didn't see any injuries initially that's his story he didn't see any injuries she seemed to be fine. And then later that night, she was experiencing severe problems. They took her to the hospital. If they didn't, she almost certainly would have died. That's his story. Right. That's his story. So, but however, as the, as the DA pointed out in the press conference, some of the findings from the pediatrician's examination of Carolina, the victim in that particular case, were, as the DA mentioned, she had acute and healing rib fracture.

So in other words, she had rib fractures that were not only from this supposed dropping incident, but fractures that were old, that were healing from previous incidents of abuse. She had a skull fracture. She had a brain hemorrhage. None of that, by the way, neither a skull fracture nor a brain hemorrhage would be consistent with dropping a child into sync. Right. Clearly, that's a lie.

Clearly, that's false. That's being, that's dishonest, right? Right. She had a healing tibia fracture on her right leg from previous abuse. So what does this tell us about that particular scenario? It tells us that she had to, as we find with cases of fatal abuse or fatal abuse philocyte, that she had battered child syndrome because she was a child that was being bad, and abused previously and over time.

It was ongoing abuse. She had previous injuries that were healing, right? So that fits this category. Before I switched to wealth front, my APY was probably 0.1. Like, it was a joke. I was literally getting pennies. Once I switched, chit-ching. With a wealthfront cash account,

earn up to 4.2% APY on your cash. The high APY with Wellfront was a clear winner. There are no petty fees. Every month, there's this much that I'm getting an interest, and I didn't have to do anything. My money is working hard on its own, and I can trust Welfront is taking care of me. Earn more on your uninvested cash with a Wealthfront cash account, no account fees, no minimums, and no strings attached. Get started today at Wealthfront.com. Clients were paid $1,000 for their testimonials, creating a conflict of interest.

Outcomes vary. 3.3% base API as of January 30th, 2026, is representative variable and earned on funds swept to program banks. 0.65% new client boosts for three months on up to $150,000. Direct deposit $1,000. a month and fund an investing account for a 0.25% increase. Cash account offered by Wealthfront Brokerage LLC member FINRA SIPC, not a bank. These and eligibility requirements may apply to certain checking features of the cash account. Before I switched to Wealthfront, my APY was probably 0.1. Like, it was a joke. I was literally getting pennies. Once I switched chiching. With a Wealthfront cash account, earn up to 4.2% APY on your cash.

The high APY with Wellfront was a clear winner. There are no petty fees. Every month, there's this much that I'm getting an interest in. I didn't have to do anything. My money is working hard on its own, and I can trust Welfront is taking care of me. Earn more on your uninvested cash with a Wealthfront cash account, no account fees, no minimums, and no strings attached. Get started today at Wealthfront.com. Clients were paid $1,000 for their testimonials creating a conflict of interest. Outcomes vary. 3.3% base API, as of January 30th, 2026, variable, and earned on funds swept to program banks.

0.65% new client boosts for three months on up to $150,000. Direct deposit $1,000. dollars a month and fund an investing account for a point two five percent increase cash account offered by wealth front brokerage LLC member finra sipc not a bank these and eligibility requirements may apply to certain checking features of the cash account in fatal in the fatal abuse category of thelicide it's mostly fathers some of them some of them have personality disorders in the sense that they have they show a lot of antisocial traits like abusing a child and experiencing no remorse for that abuse. That would be consistent with someone who has antisocial traits or even engaging in child abuse repeatedly without guilt, without conscience. That would be considered

potentially aligned with a personality disorder like antisocial personality disorder or psychopathy. So it's the sort of thing, it's a sort of behavior that a psychopath may display in the sense that a psychopath can abuse a child or kill children repeatedly without remorse, without conscience. So we have this history. And by the way, let me back up, as long as I'm talking about this previous abuse with Jake Harrow. So if you look at the different categories of Philicide, there's only one that really seems to stand out in terms of looking at this case. not to say that Rebecca Haro is not involved. She could have easily participated in the physical abuse of her children. And we don't know about that yet. So it's not as if males only fit into

the fatal abuse category. Females do fit into this category. So it's possible that both Jake and Rebecca fall into this fatal abuse category. It's possible they both have traits of personality disorders. It's possible they both lack remorse. I don't know. If I'm looking at the research on this and I'm looking at these initial categories, it seems to me the most likely type of abuse and category that both of these people, both of these parents fit into, Jake more so than Rebecca would be fatal abuse. And it's important to note too, by the way, that Jake in his first marriage, He blamed his first wife, Vanessa, for the injuries to the baby. Yes, he did.

As far as we know, he hasn't done that with Rebecca. But he blamed Vanessa. So this is a guy who makes a statement to police or to the hospital staff. This is a guy who makes a statement saying, I dropped my daughter, right? I did this. I did it. I caused it. I caused it.

Even though I didn't see any injuries, I'm telling you. knew this is what happened and if you see injuries like i i don't know where they came from right like i guess it's possible that venessa somehow that night after he dropped his daughter carolina i guess it's possible that maybe venessa took over at that point right and i don't know i mean that's kind of what he's implied but if you look at if you look at what's being said it's pretty clear that jake harrow is the one who committed the abuse who's responsible for the abuse, and he's lying about it. By the way, the pediatrician, Dr. Daly, who did the examination, he or she, I'm sorry, I don't know Dr. Daly.

I don't remember that I'd have to get my, I'd have to look at the, let's just say Dr. Daly. Dr. Daly. We don't know. We don't know. Dr. Daly is now or female. But Dr. Daly comes to the conclusion. quote, that it's abuse head trauma and child physical abuse, no question. Based on the injuries, the severity of the injuries. By the way, some of the symptoms they found that were affecting Carolina at the time were, based on her presentation at the hospital, that she was experiencing severe pain,

difficulty breathing, irritability, and constant crying. right in other words this was a kid from the minute that Jake Harrow dropped this child in the sink this was a kid this was a child a baby that was in severe pain

and crying and crying out in pain and what did he do what did they do did they take her to the hospital right away no no they tried to get her to go to sleep as if they could just like

get her to go to sleep and walk away from that. They took her to the hospital only because they believed that she was going to die. And they realized that they would have a bigger problem on their hands if she died and then they had to explain it than if they took her to the hospital and tried to cover it up. And so isn't it interesting now that in the second scenario, although we don't know what happened, they're now trying to cover it up. So what Jake Harrow learned from this first incident,

which, by the way, basically took away his daughter's life, she lived, thankfully, but she doesn't have the possibility of a normal life, which she should have had. Yeah. She was a beautiful baby. She was entitled to a normal life. She had that option. Yes.

And Jake Harrow took it away. Yes. The reason I'm pointing out all of these things, the blaming his ex-wife, the severe pain is because all of these might be consistent with a personality disorder. I want to point out, this is atypical. If your child, if you have love for your child and your child is harmed and your child is in severe pain and then you just try to put that child in a crib or in bed and just pretend like there's nothing wrong, that's a problem. We'll get into that a little bit in terms of why that's happening here. But so this is the precursor to everything else. It's also worth noting that in his recent jailhouse interview, Jake Harrow, said this about the incident with Carolina.

And from this incident, by the way, occurred in 2018, October 12, 2018. here's what he said to the to the news agency. He said, quote, he was, quote, railroaded into a plea after saying he dropped his daughter. He was railroaded into a plea.

Railroaded. I know railroad. Can you believe that? Railroated? I know. Railroated. So I guess what he's saying is he never should have said he dropped his daughter. I guess the moral of the story for him is he should have lied. Or should have come up, He should have come up with a better, right?

He should come up with a better story so that they couldn't have pointed the finger at him. So apparently blaming Vanessa wasn't enough and that they, that these horrible DAs, this horrible prosecutor railroaded him into taking a plea, for which he served one day. The judge gives him a second break.

And as the prosecutor, as the DA pointed out, and I agree 100% with the DA, I do not know how you have someone who engages in this type of severe maltreatment, who basically takes away the life of his daughter. Yeah. And he gets a second chance? I know. It makes no sense.

I have never seen something that lenient. that I get the idea of giving someone a second chance, but isn't there a consequence? Shouldn't there be a consequence for falling just short of murdering your daughter that has a full life of head of her, a normal life of head of her? And now doesn't. And now doesn't.

Right. So if we're looking for clues in terms of solving this mystery or explaining this mystery, We have, the biggest one is right there with Carolina. We have a guy who committed similar abuse in the past. He lied about it. He tried to cover it up. He says he was railroaded.

I mean, he can't even express any remorse for that incident. Right. I said that actually on a report, usually if there is any leniency, it's because of remorse. It's because of regret. It's because of saying sorry. And he's being railroaded into a plea and he didn't do it and he's still not admitting to doing it. It's still a sync divider to this day.

No accountability. No remorse. Nothing. I mean, you know, I'm outraged at Ruby, Frankie and Jody Hildebrand's opportunities for parole. And I wish maybe, you know, attempted murder was the conviction. And I realize it's hard to prove, so I'm not going to argue law here. But then you see Jake Harrow, you know, I just. Yeah, I know.

It's the same thing. Child abuse is my point. Child abuse. Abusing children. Well, not just child abuse, like extreme child abuse, excessive child abuse. Yeah. Torture, suffering, life altering, possibly, yeah, child abuse that. alters your entire life.

There is a question here. So this category of fatal abuse, filicide, you know, it's sometimes called accidental filicide. There is a question here for me about whether, whether this is an accident. Clearly, the abuse is no accident because it's happening consistently over time. When you say accident, you're not saying roll over in my sleep accident, like he's sort of implying. You mean severe abuse is on purpose and the infant Emmanuel accidentally being killed through the severe abuse. I mean, if you look at Carolina and you look at the fracture on her tibia, if you look at the head injury, if you look at the ribs, right, this is someone who's being abused in multiple ways to multiple parts of her body over time.

she's healing from a lot of these injuries, right? So what I mean by accidental is she does something that irritates him. He breaks a rip. A week later, she does something else that irritates him. He breaks another rip. In other words, there's this progression of violence. There's this escalation of aggression and violence over time when she misbehaves. Or he perceives it.

An infant, nonetheless. He perceives it. it is misbehaving. So eventually it gets to the point where he overreacts to such an extreme degree that he murders her or murders Emmanuel, right? That's what I mean by accidental abuse. Whatever his, whatever she's doing, the response to that is not accidental abuse, accidental homicide. Right. Homicide. Accidental murder, not. Yeah. So with Carolina, let's just say for the sake of argument that she did die from her head trauma, from the skull fracture, right, and the brain hemorrhage, which the doctors all said that she would have died if she didn't come into

the hospital. So what did he do? So she, you know, presumably she was misbehaving in some way and he overreacts and hits her head, right? So maybe he hits her head with, I don't know, an object, right his goal you can argue i don't know i'm just pointing this out like you could argue that he's impulsive he reacts to you know what he would consider misbehavior and he doesn't necessarily intend to murder her but she dies as a result of those injuries right that's what makes it accidental it's it's not like he's he's drawing up a plan on his whiteboard about how he's going to murder these kids. He's, this is more a situation that's impulsive.

That's my point. That's a lot of these types of phyllisides can be reactive. They can be impulsive. And now I'm sure you're saying why. Why would someone react that way? Right. Why would someone react the way to a vulnerable, innocent infant who can't protect itself?

And so let's talk about that. I think that's the heart. That's the heart of our show. I want to, I want to, I've told this story before, but it's been a while. So all of our new, all of our new viewers are probably not going to know this story. Our old viewers are probably going to know this story. But there's Sigmund Freud, the famous psychoanalyst, who's really the, he's the, origins of all psychologists, all psychology, he had on his desk prominently displayed he had a porcupine.

And people always said, you know, they were confused by that. Like what, what does that mean? Why would he have a porcupine? And Freud loved to tell the story that the philosopher, Arthur Schopenhauer, used to tell about porcupines. And that is that you, the story is, and I'm going to get this slightly wrong, by the way, but you know, you get the gist of it. That imagine it's a cold night in the forest and there's some porcupines out and about. And in order to survive, they need to huddle together.

So the porcupines come together and they get as close as they can. And the closer they get, the more they start. spearing each other with their, what are they called? Quills? Quills, they're quills. Is that yes? Yes. So the porcupines are sticking each other with these quills, and they start actually drawing some blood and hurting each other.

And they're doing this because they need to stay close. They need to stay warm, right? And so what happens is they all back away from each other, and now they're back to where they started. They're not close. They're now starting to freeze again. It's cold out. It's near freezing.

And so the porcupines once again reconvene, and their quills start spearing each other and sticking each other again. But they get warm. They get enough warmth to survive. But they can't, they're in pain, so they can't keep doing that. So they then separate. And Freud loved that story because he saw that as a metaphor for intimacy. He saw that as a metaphor for the way human beings connect and do intimacy.

That if you get too close to another human being, you risk. You risk rejection. You're vulnerable, right? You're risking the possibility of losing a lot, emotionally, maybe physically in terms of the relationship, right? But then if you get too far, you don't develop relationships. You don't have the possibility of intimacy. You're alone, right? You're not vulnerable, but you're alone.

And so to Freud, intimacy is this dance between closeness and distance that we all kind of negotiate all the time. And you're probably saying, what's this got to do with Jay Carroll? No, I believe in you. I know you're going to bring it back. You always do. Let's keep going. But there's a well-known American philosopher, a brilliant guy. His name is Norman O. Brown. He's now deceased. But he wrote a book called Life Against Death. And Brown has a quote that I love. And that quote is, I'm going to quote it here. It's really simple. Quote, to be is to be vulnerable, unquote. To be is to be vulnerable, unquote. I would add my own. This is a Dr. John original here. It's not particularly original, but I would add to that quote,

this is what I would say, to quote, to love is to be vulnerable, unquote. That's my addition. But you did quote unquote on yourself? I just quoted myself. I don't know. Don't ask me. I don't know why I did that. It's not, if, if.

It's beautiful. I love it. Official. Official Dr. John Matthias. Yeah, that's funny. If one of our viewers, if one of our viewers quoted me, they could do that, but I guess I can't do that for myself. You just did. You just did. You did it. You just did it. I'm taking the liberty of quoting myself here. To love is to be vulnerable. To love is to be vulnerable. And so if you really want to understand, the reason why this is important is if you really want to understand what's happening here, this is a story about vulnerability. And I'm going to explain that. And so this is why to be, this is why this is a story about vulnerability.

Because when we're children, when we're born, we depend for our survival upon other people, upon our parents or a caregiver. Typically it's mothers. Nowadays, that's not necessarily as true. But historically, mothers do a lot of the, you know, the parenting. and they do a lot of the raising of children.

And so a child cannot survive without food, shelter, and even to a large degree, without some type of nurturance. At my bank, I was literally getting pennies using wealthfronts. Chiching. Meet Angela, a wealthfront cash account client since 2023. I lost my job, not having something else lined up yet. I was pregnant with my second. We had to think about how do we make our money.

work for us. Every month, there's this much that I'm getting an interest and I didn't have to do anything. My money is working hard on its own and I can trust wealth front is taking care of me. With a wealthfront cash account earn up to 4.2% APY on your cash. No account fees, no minimums, and no strings attached. Plus, free instant withdrawals to eligible accounts. Get started at wealthfront.com. Client was paid $1,000 for their testimonial creating a conflict of interest. Outcomes vary. 3.3% base API as of January 30th, 2026 is representative variable and earn. earned on funds swept to program banks. 0.65% new client boost for three months on up to $150,000.

Direct deposit $1,000 a month and fund an investing account for a 0.25% increase. Cash account offered by Wealthfront Brokerage LLC member FINRA SIPC, not a bank. Instant withdrawal subject to conditions, fees and eligibility requirements may apply to certain checking features of the cash account. Before I switched to Wealthfront, my APY was probably 0.1. Like, it was a joke. I was literally getting pennies. Once I switched to chiching. With a wealthfront cash account, earn up to 4.2% APY on your cash.

The high APY with Wellfront was a clean. winner. There are no petty fees. Every month, there's this much that I'm getting an interest and I didn't have to do anything. My money is working hard on its own and I can trust Welfront is taking care of me. Earn more on your uninvested cash with a Wealthfront cash account. No account fees, no minimums, and no strings attached. Get started today at Wealthfront.com. Clients were paid $1,000 for their testimonials creating a conflict of interest. Outcomes vary. 3.3%. Base API as of January 30th, 2026 is representative variable and earned on funds swept to program banks. 0.65% new client boosts for three months on up to $150,000.

Direct deposit $1,000 a month and fund an investing account for a 0.25% increase. Cash account offered by Wealthfront Brokerage LLC member FINRA SIPC, not a bank. These and eligibility requirements may apply to certain checking features of the cash account. You and I have talked about the Harlow Experiments many times. I won't get into that in too much depth. But the conclusion of the Harlow experiments was that, monkeys that had terry cloth mothers rather than wire mothers did function much better. They did much better.

And it was just the warmth of the terry cloth. Much better in life in general. They were better adjusted. They were more social. They went on to have their own families. The other monkeys typically didn't. So we have these long helpless, we have a long helpless infancy. And our childhood is, in our childhood, we're completely dependent upon other people for our survival.

And we never lose that. Dependency lies at the core of the human experience. Failed dependency needs lead to failures in trust. safety and feelings of fear and fear of our survival. So the other thing that goes with dependency is that children oftentimes, because the world is so overwhelming to an infant, there's so many sensations that are happening and the child needs food and shelter and warmth. There's so much going on with the child that the child is overwhelmed.

The child is often in a perpetual state of fear. And so it's part of the parent's job to help ease that fear or appease that fear by reading the child's signals, by responding to the child. And so, in other words, responding not just to the child's dependency, but to the child's very vulnerability. And the reason this is important, obviously, is that some parents are better, at reading and responding to vulnerability than other parents. And so this is going to take us a little bit deeper into the research on Philicide. I'm going to refer to a well-known study here by, it's by three authors,

Burgoe, Grace, and Whitehurst. This is from a 2007 article in the Journal of the American Academy of Psychiatry and the Law. The title of the article is, you probably can't read that. A review of maternal and paternal filicide. Yep, there you go. So in terms of summarizing some of the elements that are involved in paternal filicide, I'm going to read a little bit of the most important findings from this article. This is on page 78.

Quote, perpetrators, male perpetrators, are likely to have a personal history of abuse in childhood, particularly in paternal filicide involving infants under the age of one. So that's important because Emmanuel was, seven months old. He's under the age of one. The other reason that's important is because a child under the age of one is particularly vulnerable, particularly helpless, right? And so a lot of the research shows that fathers, males that engage in philocyte have abusive childhoods, and they're more likely to murder children under the age of one. And the reason this is important, by the way, is because most murdered children under the age of one,

the majority of children under the age of one that are murdered fit the category of a pathological philocyte. In other words, mothers typically are the ones more likely to murder children under the age of one because they're psychotic or suffering from postpartum psychosis. However, fathers who have experienced some type of childhood abuse are more likely to engage in filicide when children are under the age of one. And that's really important here because it raises the question of whether Jake Harrow or any...

And I'm not talking about Jake Harrow. I'm obviously talking... Because I don't know his background, but I'm talking about paternal filicide in general that you see this element of abuse, of them, of the actual perpetrators being abused in their childhoods. And we're going to talk about why that's important in a little bit. I'm going to continue reading here,

because this is all really relevant to our analysis of J. Carroll. Motivational factors, same page, page 78, motivational factors noted for paternal filicide include attempts to control the child's behavior and misinterpretation of the child's behavior. In an investigation of five paternal filicides, Palermo, who's an author of a research study, Palermo pointed out that all the men felt a sense of personal inadequacy and had a lack of parenting skills and coping mechanisms.

They also add that paternal filicide is often associated with substance abuse or substance dependence, which Jake Harrow, We in 2024 had a charge for, he had an arrest for convicted felon and narcotic addict, owning a possession and a firearm. So I don't know if Jake Harrow has a history of substance abuse, but this charge in 2024 that alludes to narcotic addict is interesting, right? That certainly suggests that he does have some potential history of substance abuse. I can't confirm that, but it certainly seems to be the case. I'm going to read from another research study here. This is the title of this article is Maternal and Paternal Philicide, case studies,

can you read it? Case studies. Case studies from the Australian Homicide Project. The Australian Homicide Project was a project that looked at 231 homicides between 2010 and 2013 in Australia. So that's, again, that's not a million data points that you'd find in Major League Baseball, but for forensic psychology, that's a fairly large sample. Yeah. Only a small percentage of those were paternal filicides, by the way.

However, almost every one of those paternal filicides that was found. that a higher proportion of perpetrators had witnessed inter-parental violence. So in other words, they grew up in domestic violence homes, or they were physically or sexually abused as children. Interesting. 50%. This is from another study from England and Wales. 50% of the data from the England and Wales study showed

that those who committed paternal filicide had suffered childhood maltreatment. So, again, I want to say I don't know if Jake Harrow has some history of maltreatment. If you look at the research, it seems reasonable to say that he may have the history, or it seems reasonable to say that probably he likely has some history of childhood abuse or maltreatment. And the reason that's important, if we're going to talk about this idea of vulnerability, is because children who are abused are particularly sensitive to feelings of helplessness and vulnerability

to such a degree that they will do anything, almost anything, because it's a question of survival, it's the porcupines. Because they will do almost anything to defend against those feelings of vulnerability in order to survive. And so,

I want to just paint a picture, right? Like I want to paint a little bit of a picture here of how this could play out. Not only with Rebecca, but with Jake. So imagine you have a child, you have a baby. And the mother is spending almost almost all of her time nurturing, feeding, caring for the baby, typically. I mean, I could be wrong. You know, maybe Jake did some of that.

But typically the mother will, let's say it's Rebecca, will spend a vast majority of her time with the baby. And guess what happens? The father gets neglected. Because the mother is spending so much time with the baby, the father doesn't get the same amount of attention. Right? The father in some ways feels left out.

And not only that, but the mother who's expected a certain amount of attention from the husband or from the partner is also getting less attention because the father feels somewhat left out and because the baby is you know is it takes a lot of time and energy the father just doesn't have the you know the emotional wherewithal or the emotional bandwidth to really give a lot of attention to the mother either typically so you have two parents that are exhausted neither of them are kind of getting the nurturance they need, right? They're both kind of feeling on edge.

And yet they're both, they both have the task of trying to raise this child, trying to protect this child from all the, you know, all these stressors and all the stimuli from the environment. Their job essentially, because if the child becomes too overwhelmed with too much stimuli, the child, you'll know, the child will scream or cry or like children obviously are particularly sensitive to the environment. So when you have a father that's not getting the amount of tension they want or expect because the child's getting it, and you have a father that was abused as a child, and because of that abused, they probably demand a certain amount of tension

or maybe more attention than a healthy, you know, than a father that wasn't in an abusive environment, right? It's not hard to imagine in that situation that the father is going to act out aggressively towards both the baby and the mother. So when you see Rebecca with a black eye, it raises a lot of questions about, whether Jake did that, right?

I'm not saying he did. I don't know. But there certainly seems to be some evidence to suggest that the so-called kidnapper, who was supposedly coming from behind, Rebecca, did not give her that black guy. So who did? Right.

Who did? Right. And, you know, it's, that's important here because I think it shows to me that Jake is the one directing all of the, I'm not saying he's the only one engaging in abuse. I'm not saying Rebecca's not complicit. But what I'm saying is that Jake is the one who is confronting these feelings of jealousy, these feelings of vulnerability. So with Rebecca, with a newborn, with Emmanuel, he's not getting the attention he wants. He's not, he's not feeling as loved. He's not feeling

as nurtured, which is particularly important for someone who's been abused. and he, believe it or not, pre-birth, when women are in their late stages of pregnancy, they're at the highest risk of domestic violence. And the reason is because the father knows that with the child on the way, they're going to have competition, whether they like it or not. And so, and it's also true in the first year of life. When the mother is typically or the partner is spending all their, time and energy with the child and not with the spouse, oftentimes to an unhealthy human being,

that feels like competition. And you have a certain level of jealousy and the risk for domestic violence go up enormously. Now, add into that mix a baby that's nothing but vulnerability and helplessness. What happens in that scenario is the baby's very vulnerability, the baby's very creates feelings of vulnerability in the father, whether they like it or not. In other words, just having a baby means you're going to feel vulnerability. It's going to bring back all those childhood emotions and feelings of helplessness and vulnerability. Because how can it not, right? We all have those feelings.

The difference is that a healthy parent can acknowledge those feelings and can acknowledge and identify those feelings and use them to parent in a healthy way, whereas in theory, a parent that was abused or maltreated, especially severely, will struggle to use those feelings of vulnerability in a positive way. In fact, they'll go to the other extreme in the sense that they'll do anything possible

to defend against those feelings because those feelings of vulnerability will bring back their sense of help and assist from their own abuse and maltreatment. So that means that parents like potentially, I don't know, Jay Carroll, I'm using Jay Colorado as an instance. I'm talking about in general, men who commit paternal filicide in general that have been maltreated. They're going to be overly sensitive to threats in the environment. They're going to be overly sensitive to especially aggressive threats in the environment.

And so oftentimes they're going to misinterpret the baby's behaviors as aggressive, and they're going to react accordingly. They're going to react with their own aggression and their own of violence. There's a study by Marlowe et al, 1999, from the Canadian Journal of Psychiatry, where they summarize several studies on this issue, and they say, quote, they found across multiple studies that, quote, many of the philosophical men interpreted their child

as threatening or provocative. Wow. Wow. Wow. And why is that? Because these children, the very vulnerability of these children is a threat to their sense of masculinity, power, right, whatever you want to call it. It's a threat to their control over the environment, all of it.

That's helpful with my answer. Why would someone ever do this to an infant? Thank you for helping me. So going back to, I want to read this quote again from the Burgo study, quote, motivational factors noted for paternal philocyte include attempts to control the child's behaviors and misinterpretation of the child's behaviors. The misinterpretation is that if you perceive,

and again, I don't think I read this quote earlier, but this is a quote from Liam, who wrote the book that I referenced earlier, quote, male infants are perceived as more aggressive and requiring harsher discipline than female children. And again, but that aggression, that aggression ramps up exponentially

when you have a history of child maltreatment. Because you're particularly sensitive to threat in the environment. They're particularly sensitive to threats to your control of the environment, to your mastery of the environment, anything that can touch on your vulnerability and your sense of helplessness

that brings you back to your own abuse, you're going to defend against that with everything you have. And that's how, hypothetically, with baby Emmanuel, if baby Emmanuel is crying, for example, maybe he needs a diaper change, maybe he's hungry.

It's very easy to imagine somebody like Jake or any father who engages in personal suicide to interpret some of that behavior as a threat, as aggression. And we know that children that experienced maltreatment in particular, they're going to respond to aggression with aggression. Yeah. They're going to respond to try to quash that threat. They're going to try to put down that threat.

And so even though this is a seven-month-old child, because of these past histories of abuse, there's almost this automatic reaction. You know, I talked about these acts being impulsive, accidental, right? Like, there's this, you have a child that's vulnerable, you sense the vulnerability, you can't stand it, so you turn that vulnerability into its opposite. That, by the way, is called reaction formation.

You turn it into the opposite. You turn the vulnerability. into aggression so that you don't have to feel that vulnerability. That's a defense mechanism we call reaction formation. That you take something that's too hard, an emotion oftentimes that's too hard to feel or deal with or contemplate and you transform it. And so you and I talk a lot about school shooters.

Like reaction formation is very common with school shooters in the sense that a lot of time school shooters, we just talked about this the other day in our show on Minneapolis. I'm Patreon. On Patreon, yeah. I'm not going to mention the name. But you take the, so for the example there would be

you have this sense of inadequacy. You have this sense of insecurity or vulnerability, right? And then in order not to feel that, you transform it into violence. because when you grab a gun and you start killing people, you're in control. You're not feeling vulnerable. When you have an assault rifle in your hands,

you're feeling nothing but control. You're feeling nothing but power, right? And that's what this is. That baby represents helplessness and vulnerability. And in order to avoid that feeling at all costs, you take that feeling Jake Harrow whoever potentially Jake Harrow

he would take that feeling and he transforms it into violence and aggression and abuse to stop that child from threatening him and so that's what's going on here this is really in a peculiar way this is an attempt to repair

all that trauma from his past if there is trauma and again I don't know let me put that differently. For paternal, for fathers that commit paternal filicide, it's an attempt to transform that trauma and that helplessness into its opposite, which is strength and power and aggression. And so that, that is what's going on. That is, I

believe, the main reason why men in particular, and especially men, and we know that the research shows that most men who commit philocyte have abuse of pass okay in in the study in the Australian homicide project I'm gonna read I'm gonna give you the breakdown of of their findings so these are paternal philocytes experiences in childhood I'm gonna give you the breakdown of the numbers here experiences in childhood the number that experienced physical abuse roughly 70% physical neglect 70 70% emotional neglect, 100%.

Every paternal filicide in the Australian Homicide Project experienced some type of emotional abuse or neglect. Research show. Exposure to parental violence roughly 80%. Criminal history. How many of these fathers had a criminal history where they engaged

in previous violence? 80%. Did Jake Harrell engage? Did he have a criminal history were engaged in previous violence? Yes, he did. Right? And so, so the basis of a lot of paternal filicide, and I believe that if I don't know, and again, I don't know Jake Harrow's background. I don't know if he grew up in an abusive home. So I'm just talking more generally about paternal filicide and what that looks like. But the basic equation here is you take vulnerability that a child represents to the court. A child wants to survive. A child will cry. A child will express their needs. A child will, in some ways, seem difficult, right? But part of the job of a parent is to meet those needs

in a healthy way by recognizing our own vulnerabilities and being able to accept those vulnerabilities. That's what love is. There's no love. You can't love another healing. being unless you can have unless you can be vulnerable to some degree you just can't it's the porcupine dilemma you have to be willing to take a few quills to love another human being and so people like jay caro or maybe allegedly potentially like jay caro they don't want any quills they don't want to get close okay and so that's i think that to me that explains not only potentially and again I don't know for sure here. I'm basing this on the research because I don't, you know,

I haven't sat down with Jake Harrow and talked to him about his past, but it seems to me that the odds point in this direction, especially given his past history of abuse with his daughter, Carolina, that he utterly destroyed her life. And it would also explain the black eye, by the way. That makes sense. I mean, you answered all my questions when it comes. comes to J. Caro, now I want to ask, if, keyword if, we're speculating through your research

that you brought to the table here, if J. Carro's responsible. Yeah. Why? Why, why would the mother Rebecca Harrow continue with her story and continue to defend him? Or is that a whole other episode? And if it's a whole other episode you can say so, but why? Why is she not saying this man did this to my baby? Why is she not protecting her baby boy? Well, I think, I think the first problem she has is she told a big fib. She told a major lie to police right out of the blocks. Like that presents a problem because she's, she's already committed to that lie. Which is a crime. Not only is it a crime, but it shows that she's complicit, potentially. right like if she deviates from that lie then the whole thing blows up i mean

part of your question is okay if jake did this then why doesn't she just point the finger at him and i mean the i'm guessing it seems it it seems possible that this crime was committed way before the football game right way before the yes weeks before the right weeks before and so that that that that means that she knows what happened presumably believe she would know what happened. Like if she's concocting the story, she's doing it to cover up the murder. Right. And that would that would implicate her in murder. So I think she, for whatever reasons, she believes that her simplest, her simplest solution to this problem is just to stick to that story and let the chips fall where they may. If she points the finger at Jake, which she might

eventually, but if she does, she's probably going to demand a fairly good deal. If she's going to testify against Jake, she's probably going to, you know, be looking for, you know, reduced sentence, whatever that would be. You know, so maybe she's not going to spend life in prison without the possibility of parole. Maybe she has some chance of parole, right? I don't, that's what I think she's trying to weigh, and that's probably what she's discussing with her attorneys at the moment. But I don't know. You know, the other side of this, like I said earlier, is maybe Rebecca Harrow is, maybe she's a little antisocial.

And you don't mean again, you don't mean the person that doesn't want to go to the party because I can be antisocial in that way. Yeah, me too. I'm never the one. I'm never leading the charge to go to the party. So, but that, you know,

when I say, when people say go big or go home, I'm like, can I do both? You know, like, could I just be a home? But antisocial.

Yeah, that's not what you're talking about. When I talk about antisocial, I mean breaking social norms and rules. Yeah. Essentially. I mean, it's more than that, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, just violating and not having a problem with it, right?

Like, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you really don't see it as a problem. And so, so maybe, maybe she has some of that. Maybe she participated in the abuse. Maybe, maybe she saw Jake. abusing their kids and she thought, okay, that makes sense. That's a good way to discipline. I don't know.

There's a lot of possibilities. It's possible that she abused these kids equally, again, which would put her in that category of fatal abuse. Maybe she participated. I don't know. Or could she have been under coercive control and fearful? That too. Yeah. We don't know.

We don't know. Right. I mean, the black guy says a lot. The black guy suggests that... She, too, is a victim. That she's a victim of his violence, and she's a victim of his control, coercive control. The very things he was concerned about with baby Emmanuel,

he's in some ways playing those same issues out with her. Yeah. That he's trying to control her, right? that he doesn't want to feel vulnerable with her. In fact, many of the issues I talked about, so if love is about being vulnerable to some degree, and I'm not going to quote myself again, by the way. I'm going to have a quote up on our fridge soon,

the quote magnet by Dr. John Matthias. To love, what was my quote? I forgot it already. To love is to be vulnerable. You're going to have to open it up so you can read it. The love, quote, to love is to be vulnerable, end quote, Dr. John Mathias. These very same issues that play out with infants in particular or children that really kind of put a mirror up to our own vulnerability. They obviously play out in our romantic relationships

as well and maybe in some of our friendships too. In the sense that, in the sense that Rebecca, if Rebecca tries to get close to Jake, she too will challenge these feelings of vulnerability that he has. Right? You see this a lot of domestic violence. Dependency issues run deep in terms of domestic violence as well. Because a lot of males that engage in interpersonal violence or domestic violence, it's the same dynamic.

They don't want to feel vulnerable. They don't want to feel helpless. They don't want to feel like they're dependent. upon another human being for validation or support or nurturance. They see themselves as lone wolves that just sort of they can do it on their own. They have someone in their lives because, I mean, they would never admit that they need them, but they have someone in their lives because they want companionship. They don't need it, right?

It's that presentation. But what's really going on. So I remember, I remember, I've done groups. I've done a lot of groups, domestic violence groups. And I remember I had a guy that was in a motorcycle gang. And he was like this, you know, the whole thing is exactly what you'd come into the group with his leather motorcycle clothing. And like, he was like the quintessential example of somebody who's like, I'm a big tough guy. I don't need love.

I don't need women. I don't need nothing, right? Like, I'm just, I'm going to get on my Harley and I'm just going to run around and conquer the world and, you know. That's like you before you met me. Yeah, right. I had to shave my beard. Just kidding. I had to shave my beard and sell my jacket.

I never owned a Harley. It's one thing. Yeah. Yeah. Although it's cool. I mean, I wouldn't mind anyone. I would, I love to own a Harley. I mean, they're really expensive, but they're really cool.

So, and I don't think, I think for me there'd be a big risk because I'd be like a terrible motorcycle drive. If I felt like I could be a competent driver, I might consider it. But this guy is like, he's sort of like, this is a guy who's broadcasting that he doesn't need people, that he doesn't want to be vulnerable. He's not going to be vulnerable. Like that just doesn't go with the turf, right? And so, but the thing is, like, he was in like, I don't remember. He had like seven divorces, seven marriages, seven divorces, and every one of them involved domestic violence. So when every one of these women would get close to him, he would beat them to a pulp and basically tell him, I don't need you.

I need you, but I don't need you. Don't leave me. Right. Don't leave me. But if you leave me, I'm going to beat you up so you stay. Right. Right. It's like, and then I'm going to run out of my Harley and pretend that nothing's wrong because I'm this big, strong, tough guy, right?

So like, and I don't, I don't mean to stereotype guys. I mean, like I said, I would love to have a Harley. Like, I don't want to stereotype these guys, but like, this is just an example of a guy that was in one of my groups. I always say, I always say John was my soulmate, but I say he needed a British accent or an Australian accent and then a Harley. Then, you know, I sacrificed those two things. but go on. Yeah, that's, I mean, you can't have everything. So my point is, my larger point is that oftentimes you see the same dynamic play out

in domestic violence and intimate relationships. And again, that goes back to the porcupines, right? Like the guy, the Harley driving tough guy, he doesn't want to get in there. He doesn't want, he doesn't want to get, you know, hit, he doesn't want to get speared by the quills because he knows it's going to hurt him. And he doesn't want the quills to hit him too hard because he might get rejected. He might get hurt.

Right? So he creates his whole persona around being invulnerable and powerful so that he doesn't have to deal with that. Yeah. He doesn't have to deal with that vulnerability. And so, yeah. So like whether it's infants or whether it's partners, spouses, intimates, right? It's the same dynamic.

Makes sense. Well, only time will tell as the details come out and as this continues to develop this case and we certainly the public learns more information, we'll continue to unpack this. You know, but this is, I appreciate you sort of helping us even comprehend how someone could do this to an innocent little baby. and I hope that they can find him so he can, Immanuel, so he can be put to rest and hope that justice can be served. Is there anything else you want to talk about?

Yeah, I guess one of the morals to this story is that if, you know, if you feel threatened by a child, if you feel like you need to react to a child with violence to feel better about yourself or to feel less vulnerable, then you probably should get help. You know, you should probably, look into that a little bit. Of course, the irony is

that men in general who feel the most invulnerable, who feel the most powerful, or the least likely to get help, because getting help is a sign of weakness. Getting help, getting treatment, getting therapy, would mean that you have to be vulnerable, and that's precisely what they're trying to avoid. So that's why we have crime.

That's why we have crime and repeated crime, and that's why Carolina, unfortunately, was almost murdered, and yet Jay Carroll did not do any time for that and came back and repeated the exact, potentially, allegedly, repeated the exact same behavior. Yeah. Can't imagine doing groups with these men that you did this with any men that avoid vulnerability, and you did this, you would have groups with perpetrators or those on parole. or those, that's a, we should do a whole series on that.

But until then, yeah. Thank you, babe. I appreciate it. Yep. So did you have any other questions? Hopefully I, hopefully I, hopefully. You answered them all. No, dude, I had a list of questions.

I had them and, you know, you, I said, take it away and you answered most of them throughout this episode. If we are patient, you always come full circle and help us really understand. I think I have more questions about Rebecca, like I said too. But as you've pointed out and as I have pointed out, there's still much we need to learn. There could be so many situations that this could be that we need to wait and see. I think I've also wondered about a possible denial in her as well as a defense mechanism. I've wondered, you know, but I think there's just so much here.

we have to wait yeah i noticed uh i noticed you you called me dude so i want to amend i want to amend my quote now to dude to love is to be vulnerable i called you dude i do yeah you called me dude i think you called me dude yeah it's fine it's good i'm i'm i think it's cool well you call me dude but i thought it would have been bro i know i call everyone dude i thought it was bro we've got an eight-year-old these days and everything's bro. Hey bro. I'm like I guess I do that. I go dude, bro.

Yeah, dude. True. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. I don't, you know, I don't live with. I like it. I like it. A female.

I've just got two bros, two dudes they live with. So it is what it is. That you do. Yeah. Grew up with four brothers too. Dude. Four dudes. For bros.

In the literal sense. All right. That learned to be. vulnerable, I might add. So I'm all of you. So that I'm grateful for my four brothers. I mentioned, you and our little guy. Vulnerability is something that we embrace in our family. And yeah, you're surrounded by a bunch of dudes that can be vulnerable. Yeah. And that, that's, that's what No Harley. No Harley. No Harley. They can do vulnerability. So no Harleys. No British accent or Australian action, but he can do vulnerability. So I'm happy. So,

maybe that's, that's the takeaway here. I'm going to, I'm going to go back to one of the quotes I started with about to be is to be vulnerable. And I think I love that quote. So, um, that's true. Just our, to be is to be vulnerable. We, we, I mean, I think vulnerability is is indispensable in terms of finding a world with more compassion. more empathy, more love, right? Without vulnerability, I don't know how you get there. This existence needs vulnerability.

Yeah, well said. Well, thank you. Thank you, babe. You're welcome. Dude, babe, whatever. Yeah. Dr. Dude, babe. Bro.

I love you. And I love you too. Thank you for helping us to impact this. Yeah, and we will continue following this story wherever it leads. So thank you for subscribing. There's a lot we don't know. So I just in broad strokes and broad terms, hopefully I elucidated some of the complexities of philocyte. And again, I don't know for sure if it applies to this case exactly.

I wouldn't know that unless I did an interview with Jake Harrow or Rebecca Harrow. and I haven't done that clearly. So, but this, but this is, this is what the research suggests. And I think that the odds are that some or some portion of this analysis would be relevant to this case. I, I certainly agree. I completely agree. All right. All right.

Thank you, everyone for, like I said, subscribing and liking this video. video, it is a way that you can support this content without paying anything or doing anything so we can continue to bring this to the public. To you, thank you for liking, subscribing, and hitting notifications that you know when we continue to follow this story. Thank you everyone and have a good night. Good night. At my bank, I was literally getting pennies using wallfronts.

Ch-ching, there's this much that I'm getting an interest in. I didn't have to do anything. Clients like Angela earn up to 4.2% APY on their cash with the Wealthfront Cash account. Get started at Wealthfront.com. Client was paid $1,000 for their testimonial, creating a conflict of interest. Outcomes vary. 3.3% base APII as of January 30th, 2020s, as representative variable and earned on funds swept to program banks. 0.65% new client boost for 3 months on up to $150,000.

Direct deposit $1,000 a month and fund an investing account for a 0.25% increase. Cash account offered by Wealthfront Brokerage LLC member FINRA SIPC, not a bank. At my bank, I was literally getting pennies using Wealthfront. Chich! Meet Angela. A wealthfront cash account. client since 2023. I left my job, not having something else lined up yet. I was pregnant with my second. We had to think about how do we make our money work for us. Every month, there's this much that I'm

getting an interest in. I didn't have to do anything. My money is working hard on its own, and I can trust Welfront is taking care of me. With the Wealthfront cash account earn up to 4.2% APY on your cash. No account fees, no minimums, and no strings attached. Plus, free instant withdrawals to eligible accounts. Get started. At Well, Client was paid $1,000 for their testimonial, creating a conflict of interest. Outcomes vary. 3.3% base API as of January 30 at 2026 is representative, variable, and earned on funds swept to program banks.

0.65% new client boost for three months on up to $150,000. Direct deposit $1,000 a month and fund an investing account for a 0.25% increase. Cash account offered by Wealthfront Brokerage LLC member FINRA SIPC, not a bank. Instant withdrawal subject to conditions, fees, and eligibility requirements may apply to certain checking features of the cash account.