Hidden True Crime - JUROR # 14 Joins Dr. John & Lauren: An In-Depth Conversation After Serving On The Jury

Episode Date: June 11, 2024

Join Hidden True Crime as we follow Chad Daybell's trial from beginning to end. Host Lauren Matthias is in the courtroom daily, doing lunch lives on YouTube and summarizing each day and week right here on Hidden: A True Crime Podcast. Lauren Matthias was a television reporter for a decade and has followed the Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell case since 2019. She and her husband, Dr. John Matthias, a criminal psychologist, started Hidden True Crime in 2020 with their Season, 'Beyond the Veil,' a psychological deep dive into the doomsday murders and prophet. What started as a simple conversation at their dinner table became a captivating podcast. Join the dynamic duo of Dr. John Matthias, a forensic psychologist, and Lauren Matthias, an investigative journalist, as they delve into the psychological facets of unthinkable crimes every week. Their unique perspectives and in-depth analysis offer a fresh take on true crime storytelling. Thank you for your support through sponsorships, subscribing, listening, and becoming a Patreon member at Patreon.com/HiddenTrueCrime Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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or a 2.9% APR on a 2025 Ridgeline or CRV. See dealer for financing details. Hello, Hidden Gems. We have a very special interview, Blake, juror number 14, now, from the Chad Daybell trial. And we are so grateful to be able to talk with you, Blake. I was there every day in trial. I recognize you well.

I would actually often look over at you or other jurors as well as Chad Daybill, because that was my job is to be the eyes and the ears in the courtroom. And nobody can see the juror, juries, jury except for those in there. And everyone would ask me. So forgive me for staring at you the past two months, you and others. No, no staring at all. Yes. Yeah, no.

I was going to say I was one of the people that would ask her about the jury all the time. So she would tell me how you guys were reacting to things. And so I wasn't there either. I wasn't in the courtroom. them, but thankfully, my wife is very observant, and I think she was able to give a pretty good description of how you guys were reacting to things. But with you here, we can actually get it from you. Yeah.

And before we begin and hear, Blake, what you're willing to share, I do want to let you know what I did observe and what I shared. I would go live every day at lunch and let people know what I was seen. And then John and I would often go live maybe about once a week or whenever there was important evidence twice a week. And you pulled on my heartstrings, actually. I'm very grateful to be doing this interview because you did get my attention. You're tall. You're not a small guy.

You were in the middle of the jurors. You sat in the middle. and oftentimes people wanted to know, of course, as we just said, how the jurors were reacting. And oftentimes I would say one of one of the male jurors is crying. One of the male jurors is emotional and oftentimes that juror was you that I didn't notice. And I can't imagine how it felt. I sat in the gallery last year for Lori Vallow's trial and I did see. the evidence that they showed you then because they showed the gallery last year.

And I can only imagine we'll jump in, but I also just want to thank you, John and I both want to thank you for your service and doing what you did the past two months. It was not easy. Absolutely. Thank you guys for being there. And, you know, when you talk about the gallery, we were aware of it all the time, right? Boy, especially those last three days, you were really aware of it. And not only the gallery, Lauren, you had the judge and you had the defendant and you had prosecution.

All eyes were on you. And I think maybe I had maybe an advantage, if you want to call that. So about nine, 10 years ago, I was on a grand jury for six months here in Ada County. And so every Tuesday, there was an A team and a B team. And every Tuesday, we would show up down at house. And maybe you had two or three cases to hear it. It was a short day. Or maybe you were there until seven or eight at night and they brought dinner.

And usually those cases were pretty disgusting. Usually minor children, a lot of undercover narcs, a lot of that kind of discussion and testimony and evidence. And so it did prepare me a little bit to at least be in a courtroom setting, but you're never ready for a gallery like that, right? And even day, you know, week six or week seven, we would still get nervous, especially on certain days when we knew maybe certain testimony or maybe witnesses or they're going to carry over a witness to the next day. And you're never ready for that. And so, yeah, all eyes are on you and you truly just have to do the best you can to stay composed and try to be. be objective and just listen to both sides and take in as much information as you can. Yeah. That was an interesting perspective to say that you were all nervous because all eyes

were on you, in other words, and we were watching. We were. And, you know, so not following this case and not knowing any of the players, again, I think I may have mentioned, it was a couple, two, three years ago, I had just seen their two faces on the news when I walked through our front room. And that's all I was privy to and didn't really follow this kind of crime drama stuff. And so really didn't know really what we were getting into. And so I wasn't sure what we were going to be getting into. And so, yeah, you just, you're just conscious about, all of the eyes from my left, right? And I always just made a point when I came in in the morning

to make sure I saw certain people. Like I was looking for Larry and Kay every day. A couple of absolute sweethearts that I had the opportunity to meet with another jury yesterday. And just certain, you know, and we would get told, you know, by the bailiffs because we would ask, okay, so who's in this section and who's over here?

And we assumed his family members and probably some media and then probably some law enforcement and kind of a mixture. But Lauren, we didn't know who were reporters or who were bloggers or I didn't know Nate. I didn't know you, right? And so we really didn't know who we were looking at from day to day. But when we would take a quick glance, wow, you'd have 30 sets eyes on you. And so you were conscious of that. And so you tried your best just to be professional and be attentive and listen and pay attention as best you can. I lost you for a minute.

Did you lose them too, John? No, I think, no, I'm okay. I think you froze, but. Oh, okay. Is your internet okay? It did look down when it just came back up. but Blake froze and, but you guys both heard that,

I just want to make sure I didn't miss it recording wise. Yeah, no, I think we got it. Yeah, okay. I missed the last, the last bit of that, but you had all 30 eyes. Go ahead, John. Yeah, no, I think he was just saying

that the jury was well aware of the people in the courtroom and that they were being observed. And so they, I think you, obviously that maybe, it sounds like that that increased your level of vigilance, maybe. Would that be a fair term? No doubt about it, John. And here's kind of the other piece of it, too. We had such a good jury.

We had such a phenomenal set of 18 people. And of course, that's a whole other discussion for another day on how the attorneys whittle everybody down and you're the last man standing. But they know what they're doing in the fact that we had such a great group. We all got along. We were all grown-ups. We loved a joke and kid and mess with the marshals and they would mess with us.

We truly wanted to be there with each other. We did. And so it was just the right element of people. And so, you know, when the bailiff would come in and say, it's your five-minute warning, we got ready. Most of us stood up, made sure you got all your stuff, and you just mentally prepared and maybe, you know, stop talking for a bit. And you just, you got your head ready. Absolutely. Okay.

How was it early on in the case? I know that they gave a timeline, but then the testimonies kind of went back and forth. And was it confusing at first, putting it all together? For me, Lauren, it probably took two weeks because the first four or five days was just law enforcement. And they were setting the stage. And they were explaining we needed to do a welfare check on a couple of kids. And we got a request from a family member in Louisiana. And then Arizona was involved.

And so it did for me. I had to try to slow down almost a little bit and just go, okay, look, Blake, they told us eight to ten weeks. You got a long ways to go, man. So just follow the breadcrumbs and let it unfold in front of you. And so it was about two weeks, Lauren, before I went, oh, geez. Oh, my gosh, this is what they're pointing to. Okay. Okay. And then you got it. And by the end, you really got it. They did, prosecution did such a good job with providing supporting evidence and facts.

We joked when they called the alternates and sadly they had to go down to their jury room and the 12 of us went into our jury room and they broke up the van. And we joked, holy cow, how many cell phone slideshows are we going to see? You know, I mean, there was an overabundance of information. And so I wouldn't say it made it easy, but my mind was made up towards the end. they had connected the dots for me. And so, yes, no doubt about it. As we were around in third heading for home, I was completely convinced in my mind

that all of that supporting evidence and documentation pointed in the direction where they were going. Were all the jurors, can I ask? So here's what I can say. So when they separated us and the five went down to their room and we, the 12 went into our room, that first night, Lauren, on Wednesday, we were absolutely exhausted, emotionally, mentally. You know, you're nervous because you know that day the judge is going to pull five of them. And you don't want to be one of those five.

You just don't. You spend 34 days in court. 35 days in court. And you just want to be part of that 12. And so it broke our heart regardless of who's going to be in that five. But once we came in that Wednesday afternoon, 12 here and five down there, we took, we just, we took an hour or two. And we took our chairs.

We moved the table aside. We took our chairs and we made a circle like you're sitting around a fire. And we just sat and talked. and we unwound because for 34 days, we couldn't talk about it. You couldn't come home and talk about it. I'm out on the porch talking to my golden retriever about it because you can't have any kind of discussion. You're not on the phone.

You're not on the news. And it was the first time in two months that we finally got to go, okay. And so we sat around and we talked for about an hour and a half. and then we had our jury instructions. We had all the counts. And then we pulled ourselves up to the table that Wednesday kind of afternoon evening. And we started going through them. And we finished that up Thursday morning.

So what I can say at least about us 12 is, you know, there's the two parts, right? Guilty, non-guilty, and then the death sentence portion. So the guilty was very straightforward. What we did is we sat around the table and we read every count. And then we as a 12, we found the evidence, whether we talked about it, they gave us all of our legal paths, right? That we had accumulated over, I think I went through five, that we accumulated over those two months. So we could go back to our notes. They gave us the thumb drives and they gave us the hard copies that were shown in Elmo.

So we had all the evidence. They gave us a monitor to run the drives in if we wanted to look at some of those slideshows. So we took each count and we went around the room and we talked about what was the supporting evidence to find this count guilty or not guilty. And Lauren, it was very straightforward. We were all convinced, all 12 of us. And, you know, maybe there was a couple of questions about, well, what did you guys think about this? Or what did you think about this? But that first set of jury instructions and counts, we were all unanimous.

Okay. The verdict came back fast. I mean, John thought so too, right, John? You were like, that was fast. Yeah, relatively speaking, it was such a long trial that we just weren't sure how long it would take to go through, how much, you know, detail that the jury would consider and how long it would take you guys to kind of go through everything if you did. So that was, we were kind of uncertain about that. Was there any evidence that really stood out then?

Do you think that really kind of swayed the jury one way or the other, or at least you, Blake? So, John, there were multiple pieces. You had text messages that stated, what's the plan about the kids? What are we going to do about the kids? These kids are light and dark. I mean, just on down the line. Right. When it came to the children.

Right. Yeah. Tammy, he was telling people at conferences and family members at least a year in advance. She's going to die young. She doesn't have much time left. This is going to happen to her. I've had these visions. These are predictions. There was so much evidence, John, that it was for most of us, we just went through our notepads and went, okay, this witness was on May 2nd or May 6th. forth, okay, I got it. What do your notes say? And we would go through the notes. And then if our notes weren't super clear, we'd go to the hard copy evidence. And so it may have felt like it was a real short amount of time for the folks outside of our four walls. But for us, we turned over every

stone. We went around the room multiple times. What evidence? do you guys think supports this? And we would have, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. What about you? Yes, I agree. Also, what about? And so it was obvious. It was obvious.

And, you know, that was the other nice, one of the many things that were great about this jury. Everybody allowed people to talk, even if you had a weird question, or if you maybe had a concern or, you know, I'm not super convinced. Would you just let him talk? And you would have the floor and you got to communicate what was on your mind.

And there was no shutting down or all that stupid. We didn't have those people. We just had this great group that knew what they had to do and they wanted to do it. And they just wanted to do the right thing based on everything that was presented to Yeah, you guys sound like a really remarkable group. So I'm glad that that arrangement worked. I'm glad that the jury selection process seems to have been, you know, very effective. I want to say, too, that understanding that you couldn't leave to talk each day to each other, right?

You're all becoming friends and close, but not when it comes to the case. I can't imagine the weight that was. I did notice that when you came in, there was something lighter, which is interesting because I know it's heavy. You're about to give us a guilty verdict. That is very heavy. But you could tell that you had all had talked. It was like a weight had been lifted in some way.

And there was a unity when you walked in that I noticed. So thank you for sharing that. Because I did notice and I expressed that to our. viewers what I saw when you walked in. I was like they were finally able to let go and share everything they've been thinking. And Lauren, you're you're correct. That was a lot of it, right? So much of it on Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday was just allowing us the opportunity to talk about these things that had been pent up and stored for, you know, two months. And so we we did our due diligence. We spent a lot of time. You know, so the great thing was one of the things that really

helped us as well is in both sets of jury instructions and in accounts. It was it was spelled out. There were definitions. You could you could read those jury instructions to go, okay, this is what these are the guardrails. This is what we have to stay in this lane. This is what we have to follow as far as the rule of law. And these are the definitions. And this is what we have to find. And so we did. We just, we wanted to make sure we got it right.

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Hey, can I get your number? trade in your old phone for a brand new iPhone 16 Pro iPad and Apple Watch visit verizon.com today additional terms apply service and required for Apple Watch and iPad. John Pryor right out of the right out of the gate Chad Daybill's attorney came out strong. I've joked or told John that it was sort of like a tortoise and a hair story where the prosecution started slow, almost a little too slow for my liking. And the defense started out just strong with objections, with, you know, a possible solid defense from what I felt the jurors that someone didn't know about the case maybe could see. I know too much, right? So I'm just trying to put myself in your shoes. Is that what you saw or am I completely wrong in my perception? and then it sort of started to shift?

Or what did you think about the defense at the beginning, towards the end? What are your thoughts? You know, Lauren, I'll be honest with you. I don't think there was ever a time from the first week to closing arguments where the defense had provided any factual evidence that made me stop and ponder or made me second guess. I didn't, I didn't sense that. I did, I didn't, because I guess my approach was this is going to be long.

They told us eight to 10 weeks. So just pace yourself, Blake, get, you know, get comfortable. You're in for the long ride. And I haven't been in a courtroom like that before. We, you know, most of us don't have this kind of experience. you watch it on TV or whatnot to understand how the direct and then the cross and then what they're trying to do with each other. But just initially I knew that the state was going to go slow because they had to build and tell a story and layer things on top of each other. And if they just

you know, 100 mile an hour out of the gate, we weren't going to get it because I'll be honest with There were some days where I'm going, I really don't know the point you're trying to make. I'd come back to the jury room and scratch my bald head, and I'd put question marks on my memo pad going, I don't know what they were going to get across today. And that only happened a few times, right? But if I'm going to be completely honest, there really was no swaying for me. And partly, not all, but partly, Lauren was the demeanor and it was the approach and it was the kind of aggressiveness that that didn't work.

Again, you know, opening statements and even in judges' instructions, facts and evidence, not feelings, not a much, Not maybe I kind of think no those two things and if there would have been a series of texts that said that showed Chad saying wait hold on I think I'm in too deep I think I better apologize you know something something factual show me some something factual some evidence that that will change my mind that will make me think something different. But sadly, for me, there was just a lot of things like, well, no, you sure wasn't a paintball gun and it was the Cozy Cove and it was all these raccoons and are you sure she didn't drive the Dakota truck? It was those things that just, they didn't stick.

and it didn't affect me to try to make me think something different versus the FBI cell tower information with the GPS and the Wi-Fi. Yeah, that's where those phones were. That's where those users were. That's what was going on. And there's texts at certain times on certain dates before certain events happened. That's factual. well, that's the stuff that we are all looking at,

not was it a hopper on top of a paintball gun? Was it an AR? Was it all those doggone raccoons out in the, no. Right. Yeah. Or Melanie Gibb? You know, I had a joke that his defense was the raccoon and Melanie Gibb. And, you know, they colluded up in the cozy cove, you know, talked about paintball guns.

you know, yeah, I know. It was, it was a little confusing for me too. Right. And some of it too, Lauren, was with a few of those items and topics. Again, I was confused what point he was trying to make as a defense, why he kept hammering those, because it's just, it's an open wound and you're not getting anywhere with it. And yeah, I had some question marks on those pages as well. Yeah. It seemed to me, I had similar questions, by the way, when we were watching the trial, and we knew a lot more than the jury, obviously, but it seemed like he was building up to his closing arguments. And then he had, you know, he had this, what I would describe as an epithal moment.

He, I think, prior thought it was an epiphanal moment where he pointed the finger at Lori or Alice Cox and basically said, chat look look at this chad's the target and i you know and like the whole thing with the truck and i think a lot of that was building towards that moment um and so i'm really curious how you reacted to that when when when basically prior said are my guy's the victim my guy was being targeted by lorry and he's being set up i mean what what did you guys think of that So honestly, John, my mind kind of started racing and it went, he had burner phones. There was no documentation. Who has burner phones?

A grown man who's married for almost 30 years with five kids who's strong LDS faith. Who has burner phones? You don't have burner phones, Blake? You don't have a burner phone? Right. I mean, I got rid of those. track phones two years ago. And so in my mind, again, I just started going, okay, he's got track phones.

There was never any discussion, text email about maybe we shouldn't do this. It was all, we got to take care of this. We have to do this. They're light. They're dark. This is what happens. There was just, so to answer you, John, no. No.

I didn't you didn't see chat as the victim because by that time John I'd already made up my mind yeah once once it was almost over I had already made up my mind there was so much overwhelming evidence and and you know what I did notice I think in his closing argument he talked quiet and he tried to talk humbly and he kept the microphone away from his face and tried another approach. The fisherman, that he was, he dreamt of being a fisherman and he was kind of a down-to-earth guy that can, right, that could connect to everyone. You got, you got. I kind of made fun of that moment, by the way, so I'm glad you guys saw through that. No.

And so when the 12 of us got together for the first time, there were, a myriad of those types of examples of again, oh my gosh, did I just hear them say what they just said over the phone and this text message? And there were just some, you know, even little things, John, like he didn't want, he did not have his name on their gravestone. Little things like that that you don't do. That's a big deal, right, to focus in the LDS FAPE. That is enormous. Yeah.

And it was just little things like that that told you not only is he up to no good. No, he's the ringleader. He's the one running this show. And so by the time we had got to the closing arguments, I think the majority of us, especially me, no, we had already already made up our mind. Okay. Defense witnesses. What did you think of the defense witnesses? And Lauren, I'll be honest with you again. I really felt bad for his kids. I did. Yeah. I really did. Look, I've got two kids. I really felt bad for Garth. You could just see in that poor kid's countenance.

He didn't want to be 100 miles from that courtroom. He just was slumped. over and he didn't want to make eye contact and he didn't want to talk. That broke my heart, having to drag your son, man, drag your kids into this. That's what I said. He did that. He let them do that testify on his behalf, in my opinion. It was cruel. It is, Lauren, it is. And so I really felt bad for Garth. Now, did I believe him? Not really. you know, he had that associate that he worked with at the Halloween place. McKay. Right.

He comes in and he's up there for maybe two or three minutes. And I have to say to myself, what benefit is it for this young man to come in and put a bullseye on his chest for that? And so I didn't necessarily, and poor Garth, he started off his testimony wrong. about the vehicles and who drives them. And then the poor kid had to, you know, prior to say to him like four times, are you sure? It wasn't the, oh, no, you're right. I'm sorry.

Let me back up. You just, it kills you as a parent to see poor young kids that have to get your own live streaming around the world, right? People are watching. And so I felt really bad for Garth. Emma, again, I feel for her, just as a parent, very scripted, had her had her responses memorized, not a lot of emotion. A couple of things, Lauren, regarding that.

Number one, when they showed the video of when they put Chad in the back of the car, I looked at her, and she was crying about that. when she had approached her dad and he was in the back of the car kind of looking back and he was talking to her about what the next steps were going to be. Then I didn't like how she talked about her mom. I know. Kind of low-key threw her under the bus and made her out to, well, she's eating McDonald's and she's playing Candy Crush.

And oh my gosh, who says that about your parent? A deceased parent nonetheless. Right. Right. And, you know, all of the, so much of the testimony with principal and school teachers and folks that clogged with them and went to that high, high-res, high fitness thing. High fitness. High fitness. And a lot of the teachers that worked with her that were peers at the school said her and Emma were almost inseparable.

And so I thought, I thought there would be some love and support. some tears and some out crying from her regarding her mom's death and the manner in which it happened. And there was nothing there, nothing there. And so very sad about it. Those two kids, very sad. And then talking about defense witnesses, then when it was prior's turn, he brought those four in, one from Chico State and another one there, another anthropologist. And no, they didn't prove anything, especially the anthropologist. She was a medical examiner. She had one third of the documents that the ME down in Utah had.

And Lindsay Blake, you talk about a home run, cracked it out of the park. you know, a judge wants to stop her and she says, look, I'm just relaying the information that, okay, you can continue. And it was a two-minute, right? I know. So those four, they didn't prove anything. The local gentleman here from Boise State. Greg had to peeking in. Yes.

I know he's world-renowned super disposition seems like a real. really nice guy, but it didn't prove anything. There, there was no supporting evidence that said, this body had to be burned with this type of accelerant, with this amount of wood and sticks on it for X amount of hours. Those are the facts. They weren't. It was kind of another person's opinion. And so, Lauren, they didn't. They really didn't change their distraction.

Yeah. Yeah. Right. Peking basically just said they didn't find any of Chad's DNA. Which in my commentary on that, I said, well, this really isn't

a DNA case. I don't know if you guys saw it the same way, but I mean, we're talking about conspiracy to commit murder. We're not talking about trying to prove that he was there or not. Absolutely. And, and you know, here was another piece, these shovels and this dirt on this shovel hand. And oh my gosh, we're going to bring that out about seven or eight more times.

And my response was, look, it appears to me that one or two of you guys are stupid enough to commit this crime on his property and put those back. in his shed. What is wrong with the both of you? I know. And so, John, to your point, no, I wasn't looking for DNA. I wasn't looking for the smoking gun. You know, there was a blonde hair on the tape. And no, because for me, it was the texting. It was the email. It was the cell phone location. And it was the statements they were making to each other about horrific things. things about these four, Charles was in there too. Yeah, so I wasn't going, hey, I got to find that DNA and the Idaho State lab. Better come back with some prints or better come back.

No, there was so much more overwhelming evidence via texting that set the table. Okay. Yeah, that's great. I think that's amazing that you guys were able to put all that together in the way you did. Yeah. The one thing I think that interested me with the ending arguments of the defense was thinking to myself, this is, to me, it was mental gymnastics. It was absolute sort of mental gymnastics, but I thought to myself,

this must be what the children, his children, Chad Daybill's children, are sort of believing or, creating in their brain. That was the only thing that was sort of of interest to me, but I agreed with you. It was hard to process exactly what point he was trying to make and there was no hard evidence.

Agreed. There wasn't. And, you know, when you had Melanie and Dave and Zulema that really I felt for me really explained what the atmosphere was like when they were together and kind of what some of those

get-togethers were all about and some of the meetings and the conferences and I think they had mentioned like fireside chats that they were involved in but hearing from them and the manner in which they spoke and what they explained and kind of create they painted a picture for me that allowed me to understand the mindset of those three. And they were in it up to their neck as far as what they believed and what they thought needed to happen. And so, yeah, when closing arguments came, you listen.

And you're kind of hoping, you know, and that was the thing, too, guys, not knowing what this case was going to be about and not knowing all the actors and all the people that were involved and, my gosh, all the states. and my goodness, all of the breadcrumbs that you had to afford. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the Internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers, spammers, even stalkers.

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ORA gives you all of it, together, at the same price competitors charge for just one service. Start your free trial today at aura.com slash remove. Protect yourself now atora.com slash remove. Although, I didn't know what to expect, but I hoped that eventually you kind of start off Monday going, okay, maybe the defense is going to have a gotcha moment. Maybe they're going to roll up with some cell tower information or they're going to roll up with something else, but it just never came. it never came.

I held out hope and that there was going to be maybe something else that, because look, I'll be honest, man, you don't really want to think this through and really think that these people are that evil and wicked. You don't because that's not natural for humans to consider that, right?

And so, yeah, I think I can speak for the rest of my peers. we were waiting to hear something or see something. And it just never came. It's just never there. What about hearing? Or did you have a question, John?

No, I agree. I think he was, I think prior was trying to manufacture some of those gotcha moments. But, you know, the Chad being the target of the paintball gun or the AR, whatever, the AR-15. the... Painball gun incident. Yeah. Right. Yeah, he was trying...

I think he was trying to find some of those moments during closing arguments. But to me, it seemed like the way I described it was it felt to me really scattershot. Like he was just trying to get anything to distract you guys or divert attention from what was really going on. And, you know, like the DNA, trying to, you know, trying to say, well, there was no DNA. none of Chad's DNA was found at anything. I mean, okay.

Like, so what? Like, I mean, it was, it wasn't that type of case. So, so I agree with you. I mean, I appreciate the fact that you didn't really, you weren't persuaded by those types of diversions. And John, you know, look, full disclosure, he had a horrific job. job. Yeah. You want to talk about an uphill battle. That was not easy. And as things progressed,

I think, I know at least when the 12 of us got together, we all agreed. Look, that's a losing case. Yeah. In the sense that good luck. I mean, what's a poor guy got to work with? Right. I mean, wow. Yeah. And so in that aspect, guys, you do, you feel for him. You're just, you're grasping at straws and you're just, you're swinging at the air. And so I, I understand why on certain times he would talk louder into the mic and then he'd swing over at the gallery and swing over at the jury and stare at a couple people and then he'd swing back over and look at the gallery like in dramatic fashion, trying to draw attention to something, but it didn't work.

And we understood after a while why he was doing that, because he had nothing else. No evidence of support that was going to make any kind of dent or difference. Ladies and gentlemen, we are now boarding group A. Please have your boarding passes ready to scan. If your phone is cracked, old, or was chewed up by your Chihuahua travel companion, please refrain from holding up the line. Instead, go to Verizon and trade in any phone in any condition from one of their top brands for the new Samsung Galaxy S25 Plus with Galaxy AI and a watch and tab on any plan.

Only on Verizon. With new line on my plan, service plan required for watch and tab. Additional terms apply. See Verizon.com for details. There were some really difficult days in court, many difficult days. but I think you know, I referred to the times I saw you crying or emotional or try not to be emotional. How did you handle those days? And what I'm referring to everyone, days you had to look at autopsy photos of children or pictures of JJ when he was found or Tiley's pelvis.

How did you handle those days? And what was it like? So Lauren, here's the great thing about these marshals. There was one, we got close with all four of them, really, really close. I mean, anyway, they're just solid, solid good guys. One of them told me and told the rest of the group, if you need to look at the evidence, look for a second or two and then turn your head. He said, because it's your job to witness the evidence, you need to look at it.

at it. That's your job. And he's exactly right. And so a monitor was just to my right. And so I would look for a second or two and then I would turn my gaze. And I would look straight ahead or I'd look straight down at the table until they moved on to the next exhibit. And so that's how I was able to get through that, Lauren. But there were three times. There were three moments, huge. One was when we had to see those kids. We had to see those photos. And again, to the credit, to our bailiffs, the Friday before, they warned us when we went home.

Just going to let you know, and this is the only time they ever did this. I just want to let you know, Monday's going to be tough. So just have a great weekend, spend time with your family. Come in Monday, ready. And so we came at Monday. And even before, you know, there was this routine every morning, right? They get you in the jury room. They clear the hallway.

You go to the bathroom. They get you ice. You get your water. You get your coffee. And there was kind of this whole routine that we had every. And so even before they started the day, they just said, look, just going to remind you again, today is going to be one of those tough days. And then our main bailiff would come in, hey, it's your five-minute warning.

It's your 10-minute warning, which usually turned out to be our 45-minute warning because there were delays and bless our hard man they're trying to start at 830 and there were you know there were times it wouldn't be 915 and be 9 sometimes we recorded a 10 but he came in at that five minute and just said i'm just going to let you know again and so they prepared us for it um and so the three that i recall um and i won't ever forget to be honest were looking at those kids the second was victim impact statements. I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy. That was absolutely horrific.

Having a family member on the stand and then having family members 25, 30 feet from you weeping in open court, that was hard. We came in after that on Friday and we were emotionally exhausted. All of us. 12 of us and we didn't speak for 10 minutes even though we could we were we were in the 12 now we

didn't we were just you're just devastated and the third one was my my wife and her older sister are very close and my wife and I we spend a lot of time with my sister and brother-in-law we just we love them to death we were kind of peas in a pod and we do a lot of things together And my wife and her sister joke all the time. The husbands are going to die early and these two ladies are going to shack up and they're going to go on trips together and they're going to have houses next to each other on five acres and have chickens and all this kind of stuff. And they're going to live the life, right? And when Samantha testified and she said, I'm never going to get a grow old with my sister. killed me, killed me because I know how close my wife and her older sister are.

And it was, Lauren, it was uncontrollable. Here's the crazy thing about this. You think you're, I got German blood running through me, right? I'm pretty left brain, fairly serious, analytical. you have no control over those emotions and you don't know when they're going to come on. And so like we had spoken earlier, knowing all the eyes that are on you, you try to just compose yourself the best you can. And for me, when I came back into the room after Samantha's testimony,

I had to walk away from everybody else and take a minute to just compose myself. But those were the three moments. Those are the three moments. I got to be honest, that Friday, I hope no one ever has to go through that again. Poor Colby Ryan. Oh, my gosh. No mom, no dad, no sister, no brother. Good night.

Takes your breath away. And so those were the moments that were, you'll never forget them. Yeah, right. I was going to ask you about those victim impact statements. I felt the emotion that all of you were feeling. I was hearing him for the first time. I had gotten to know many of the victims and hearing them and knowing, watching all of you hear them. It was very clear the heartbreak you guys were all feeling. After 10 weeks of testimony, you then had to listen to how lives were shattered. Yeah, and I remember leaving the courtroom. And again, to Judge Boyce's credit, we would kind of joke. So he would have eyes on us. And then Courtney, his legal counsel, would have eyes on us. And she was always smiling.

And she would do a real good job of kind of radar through the courtroom. And then maybe she would type something in about five, six, 10 seconds later, he would then look over and then he typed something back. And so you knew they were in communication and they did a really good job of taking a pulse on the jury. And so when the victim statements happened, bless his heart, he gave us a break in the middle. And we went in and when we got into the hallway before the door was closed, there was just open sobbing by half of us. And it was the same thing. when we had to see those kids.

You know, you've got mommas as part of that jury and fathers, too. And so it's part of it. It was part of it. And that it all comes as a package, right? And so I'm glad that parts behind us. And so now really the, for me, at least the focus is, how can I help these families? How can you love on these families? How can you help them assist them?

And that's one of the main reasons why I reached out to Jason William. And I reached out to Kay and Larry and just said, look, Jason's like, doggone it. I wish we didn't have to go back to Utah. I would have met you tonight. And I really did. I wanted to at least connect with those people. And hopefully what we did as a jury helped them somehow, validated, gave them some peace, whatever adjective you want to use. Hopefully that helped them somehow.

I believe it did. We did talk to the Woodcocks after you met with them last night. Can we ask how that was meeting? Kay and Larry. It was great. It was great. And so one of our jurors, she put together a group chat for all of us. And so we can text back and forth and stay in touch with each other. And I had just kind of reached out to everybody and just mentioned, hey, guys, I got a hold of Jason.

And I'm trying to reach out to meet Larry and Kay. and then I had another juror just asked, hey, can I go? Can I go? Please, please. I'd see him there every day. I want to hug grandpa. Can I go? And I said, of course, man, we all could go. Absolutely. Whoever wants to. And so we met with them for about three and a half hours yesterday, Lauren. And we didn't want to leave. We didn't want to leave. The only reason why I had to go was because Nate was coming by my house. and we kind of had a certain time that we were going to do that. And I'd probably still be there. We would have stayed the night and had coffee this morning and hung out.

This sweet people, absolutely sweet people. And it really helped the other juror that came with me. She really enjoyed it. And it's hard to describe, guys, because this is the first time we have all been through this. but there is something soothing. There is something, there is an itch that gets scratched. There is something that just makes you want to naturally reach out to these people

because you just feel horrible for the things that have happened to them. And their response, oh my gosh, Blake, we love to have you come over. Oh, bring as many as one. Sure, they can call. I mean, they're just, and they've been through it, man. Right? They've been through it. It's day one. And so has Jason. And so it was great, Lauren. We had a great time there. And they're wonderful people. I knew I knew you're meeting with him when you were. And I was, I was anxious to talk to Larry and Kay after we both were John and I called him. And I'm so glad you also got in touch with Jason. I had sent his number on as well. So I'm glad.

And Lauren, look, I'll be honest, you know, when this was over, Saturday was an absolute blur. I still don't remember a lot of things that happened on. I left half my luggage at the hotel. You know, we were just, we were just gathered. And you didn't know what you were doing or coming or going. And so Sunday was the same way. Sunday was just a day of talking with my wife. and letting your mind unwind of, you know, you have two months, right, super, super, super long,

and then you have three days where you have to, you can finally talk, and then you have to make all these decisions. And so it was a lot in a very short amount of time. And I really didn't know, Lauren, if I wanted to talk to the media. I didn't. I didn't Saturday, that's for sure. But what I found is talking with my wife and a couple of family members, I felt better. I was able to get it off your chest, if you will. But what I'm finding now is that the more things I talk about, and again, with certain people that I trust and don't want to draw attention to anything, just want to keep it within my, my, my, my, my, my, my, family, but I'm finding, at least for me, it's helping me transition back into the real world again. Because we all got jobs. We have kids. We have routines. We have bills. We have just like everybody else. And so, Lauren, I didn't know if I wanted to talk to the media. And what happened was,

so a friend of mine, of my wife's reached out to you. And I got to talk to Jason just texting. He's like, man, I'm so sorry. I'm sorry, I missed you guys. We just had to get back to Utah. He suggested. He said, look, Blake, Lauren and Nate are family to us. And you can trust him. We then talked to Larry and Kay.

They said the same thing. Lori and Nate, Blake, you can trust them. And I'm glad, Lauren, I've had these opportunities to speak with you and speak with Nate. But I really didn't know if I wanted to do that. But you guys and Nate came highly recommended from family members, right, that have been in this since day one. And so I trust them. And I'm glad I've had the opportunity to meet with you folks and be able to talk about our experience. Thank you.

We're honored to hear. It's been so insightful. Can I ask how, it's a question that Joel, John and I get off. And so I do want to ask, can I ask how LDS the jury was because of the LDS beliefs or non-beliefs or extreme beliefs that were shared during trial? People want to know that and how it may have affected the jury. Sure. So I can't speak for the other 16.

I can say this because I know he's mentioned it in another. interview, I think, from yesterday, we had one of our jurors, super guy, super, super guy who was raised LDS. And then I think he said he stepped away from the faith in his teen years. My understanding, Lauren, that was the only, and I could be completely wrong. Yeah. You know, we didn't say, are you this? Or, you know, that really didn't come up much relative to our personal beliefs. So I couldn't tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt, were there LDS members there within our group, possibly.

But that really didn't come up a lot. But what we did ask of this one gentleman while we were deliberating was, Okay, are these beliefs traditional? Would mainstream LDS faith believe this? And he was great about it. He would say, well, this is kind of the way I was raised. And my understanding is this is the way kind of current time, modern day, if you will, would believe now light and dark.

Holy cow, numbers, visions, vibrations, portals in your closet. No. no and and so i i don't really know lorne i don't think many were because i most everybody didn't say except for this one um the one juror no one else really came out and said i am or i'm not but it didn't it didn't seem to be an issue with anybody uh regarding their faith um it really didn't seem to be an issue. Thank you. I've been hogging all the time.

Sorry, John. I had questions after sitting in there and watching Blake for 10 weeks. But I guess I want to give you to just a moment. Also, Blake, is there any question you have for John, you know, knowing his expertise, knowing he's been covering this for a while? We did this with the Lori Valo jurors as well. And one of them came on. I don't know if you've met any of them yet, but you haven't yet.

Okay, but one of them came on our show and grilled John for about an hour. I want my questions answered. But I mean, I know it's fresh and you're just out of this probably still processing it. But if there's anything you want to ask John or us, like feel free too. You know, John, it would probably just be. The, this is so new. And what I mean is each day gets easier transitioning to normal life, right? Getting back to your job, getting back to your routines, getting back to your family,

even getting up at a different time, just getting your day-to-day nuts and bolts back to where they were end of March. But one thing that I am struggling with, and I think. think it'll you know time is the best medicine but um i miss these jurors i miss them a lot yeah there was there was uh such such a rapport um and a and a bond and a sense of humor and a that we all had and and you know we truly wanted to be together and um at the hotel when we were leaving on Saturday, some people were taken to the parking garage, which I was one of, and some people had spouses picking them up there at the hotel. A couple took an Uber. So you were kind of all just going in different directions. And when we got back to the parking garage,

the two bailiffs that drove us over there, I don't want to leave. I want to stay there. I didn't know what else to do. Right. And so I think that would be my question to you, John, is I'm assuming this is normal and yeah what if anything besides time is there that you could do to I wouldn't say speed it along but help in that process I think you're you're starting to do what I would recommend which is to talk about it and kind of process your emotions to some degree it what you're describing and I think is is not unlike and And this might be an extreme analogy, but I'll use it. It's not unlike, you know, an elite group of combat veterans who go to war, right? That they're together.

It's kind of a life and death situation. They're together all the time. They're dealing with trauma. They're dealing with very emotional issues. And they rely on each other for support and camaraderie and advice. and they really, you know, develop this bond that's inseparable in many ways. And I think, while not as extreme, I think you're describing something similar. I think you're dealing with a very traumatic situation.

You guys have to make a life and death decision at the end of this. And that's tough. And you guys are really, I think developing a really unique and close bond that you'll probably have the rest of your life. And so I think it's very similar in some ways to go into war. And because you guys did that maybe at a lesser scale. But the way, I think the way that veterans deal with that is, in a healthy way, is they talk about it. They talk about their emotions.

They talk about the impact. They talk about, in your case, you know, the impact of the most emotional evidence and the victim impact statements. And, right, I think the best way. to deal with it is not to run away from it and pretend it didn't happen, but just to confront it, you know, directly like you are. And so I really appreciate the fact that I think in some ways it seems like you sense that, you intuit that, and you're doing that. You're reaching out to family members of the victims and you're reaching out to other jury members and you're talking to us,

thankfully, you know, lucky for us, you're willing to share with us. So thank you for doing that. But I think that's all part of this process of healing and recovering. And it seems to me like it must have been a deeply emotional and somewhat traumatic experience to go through. And so I think you're already kind of taking the necessary steps to really get through it. Okay. one of the great things is one of our jurors like I think I mentioned earlier she put together a text group so we text we stay in touch with each other we're all going to meet next week get a bite tea and just still stay in touch in you know getting back to work I really look forward to it it's great getting back kind of getting in the swing of things it's at least for me Because I know there are certain things that I've seen and heard, I will never forget.

Those go to the grave with you, and that's part of your civic duty. That's part of this package deal. It's just navigating the closeness that you have, the camaraderie that you have, because no one else understands what you went through. And you could even drill it down to the 12. no one still really understands what went on in that room with the 12 of us and especially the death sentence portion. The things that we had to talk about and confirm and we slept on it Friday night. We came back Saturday morning and just wanted to make sure you guys good.

Anything else come to mind. Good night, sleep. Do you still feel the same way? Still talked it through. And I think that's what it is at least for me. I can trust those people, trust all 16, 17 of them. And just being able to continue to talk with them about how,

you know, maybe some are completely good. Maybe they just, that was how they dealt with it and kind of moved on. And they're able to do that. That's super. That's wonderful. but then some of us who are new to this and are kind of going,

hmm, this doesn't look right. This doesn't feel right. I'm not really sure what's going on right now. So it's those of us, yeah, that's where I'm at, is that transitioning back from, I think like I mentioned before, you know, there's two months where it's just day in and day out. and it's a long stretch of time, but then boom, Wednesday to Saturday, you're sequestered. You can't talk. And if you do talk and hang out, you can't talk about anything else.

And it's just, it's very rigid. And then you have to make these decisions, very serious decisions. And then, okay, done. I'm seeing you guys. Take care. God bless. And so. Again, I think.

I think it sounds so, I mean, your safety isn't at risk, but it sounds, every other way it sounds so similar to combat. You know, you're thrown into a combat situation for a couple of months. You're pulled out suddenly and put back in civilian life with a complete change of scenery and right expectations. And I think it sounds kind of similar to that. So I, and you're making, as you pointed out, like you're making a life and death decision. And that's really a typical jurors.

Yeah. It's heavy. There's no doubt about it. And so I appreciate, John, that feedback. That partly, Lauren, what I was saying earlier about, I don't really know if I want to talk to me. I don't really know if I want to put myself out there. But what I have found is that that helps me.

It does. It helps talking about it. And so, yeah, John, that's kind of my plan, is to continue with family and friends and stay in touch with these other 17. And I think over time will be good. And you come back change. That's the thing is it's not just getting back. You come back a completely changed person. Yeah.

Right? I mean, will you ever be the same again after this? No. No, I'm a different person today than I was last Tuesday. There's no doubt about it. But I have to say this, though, because Lauren, it's not all bad. So you're dealing with the worst of humanity day in and day out, seeing, hearing, and you can't talk about it. You can't discuss it.

But we were surrounded by such good upstanding people from our marshals to that judge, to the prosecution, to all of those law enforcement folks, to the families, to you folks that do this for a living. There was so much good for me that I took away from this. The relationships that I've made with these 17 other people, those are all positive. those are all good those are all um those stand the test of time and and so i've tried to take the good and the positive from the horrific and i think you can i think you can because again i i saw it i witnessed it every day the the strength the compassion the sense of humor that that these folks had around us, my peers and the folks that were taken care of us. So there is always good amongst evil, always.

Yeah, that's that thanks, thanks for sharing that you saw I say the same thing to Lauren all the time given my job. So I feel like you're I feel like you're validating some of the things I deal with too. So I'm, I'm glad I'm really it really, it really makes me feel good that you see that and you have you found that. And that's a very, very healthy way to deal with that, you know, really horrible situation. So thank you for sharing that. Thank you. John and I, of course, cover the worst of humanity on our podcast.

But John often always says, too, you know, that a better understanding of crime is a better understanding of ourselves. And I think that listening sometimes to the worst teaches us about the good. It teaches us about ourselves and who we are and who we want to be coming out of this, you know, and why it's important, you know, and what is important. And so. No doubt about it, Lauren. There are things that have crossed my mind just in the last 48 hours that would have never crossed my mind in the 54 years I've been on this planet. So it is a direct result of the last 10 weeks. And it's good. It's good stuff. It's positive stuff.

And so didn't even know that was going to be a byproduct of this. And so, no, it's all good. It's all good. Thank you. Anything else, either of you? I just want to say thank you. I mainly listen tonight. Usually I speak a little more, but I was enthralled with getting that inside look at this jury. We've speculated a lot, and so now you've told us, so I really appreciate that. And it sounds like a remarkable jury. I'm glad that you guys were able to develop such camaraderie and to really see what was going on and and to make some really hard decisions,

I think, in a very correct manner. So. Yeah. And, you know, guys, I would do it again in a heartbeat. With those 17, I would even bat an eye. And so, yeah, no, I appreciate, Lauren, you reaching out and I appreciate this evening being able to A, meet you folks, get to know you and be able to talk about what the experience was like. Yeah. Thank you, Blake.

We appreciate it. And thank you so much for being our guest tonight. You bet. Thank you both. Ladies and gentlemen, we are now boarding group A. Please have your boarding passes ready to scan. If your phone is cracked, old, or was chewed up by your Chihuahua Travel Companion, please refrain from holding up the line.

Instead, go to Verizon and trade in any phone in any condition from one of their top brands for the new Samsung Galaxy S25 Plus with Galaxy AI and a watch and tab on any plan. Only on Verizon. With new line on my plan, service plan required for watch and tab. Additional terms apply. See Verizon.com for details. Ladies and gentlemen, we are now boarding group A. Please have your boarding passes ready to scan. If your phone is cracked, old, or was chewed up by your Chihuahua Travel Companion, please refrain from holding up the line.

Instead, go to Verizon and trade in any phone in any condition from one of their top brands for the new Samsung Galaxy S25 Plus with Galaxy AI and a watch and tab on any plan. Only on Verizon. With new line on my plan, service plan required for watch and tab. Additional terms apply. See Verizon.com for details. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet, and then packaging and selling it. without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers, spammers, even stalkers.

It's why you get endless robocalls and why ads seem to follow you everywhere. That's where ORA comes in. ORA actively removes your data from broker sites and keeps it off. They also instantly alert you if your information shows up in a breach or on the dark web. But ORA goes beyond data protection. With one app, you get a VPN, antivirus, password manager, spam call protection, dark web monitoring and even up to $5 million in identity theft insurance, all backed by 24-7 U.S.-based fraud support. Other companies might sell just credit monitoring or just a VPN. ORA gives you all of it, together, at the same price competitors charge for just one service.

Start your free trial today at Aura.com slash remove. Protect yourself now atora.com slash remove.