Hidden True Crime - LIVE: Colby Ryan, Lori Daybell's Son, Sits Down with Hidden True Crime

Episode Date: April 7, 2025

Lori Daybell's son Colby sits down with Dr. John and Lauren to talk all things from childhood, Lori's demeanor, and what we can expect during the trial. About Hidden True Crime: What started as a simple conversation at their dinner table became a captivating podcast. Join the dynamic duo of Dr. John Matthias, a criminal psychologist, and Lauren Matthias, an investigative journalist, as they delve into the psychological facets of unthinkable crimes every week. Their unique perspectives and in-depth analysis offer a fresh take on true crime storytelling. Thank you for your support through sponsorships, subscribing, listening, and becoming a Patreon member at Patreon.com/HiddenTrueCrime Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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It's good, it's good, good. So I just want to start Colby by kind of sharing what I actually shared with you before we started, which is I have tried to put myself, in your shoes just probably like obviously I can't like obviously I can't but like I've tried so hard to be like what would this feel like and when I've seen you jump into our chats here at Hidden 2 crime I think what would it be like to jump into a YouTube channel's chat where they're talking about your mother and now the entire world is watching your mother and I value so much that you're talking about it over on your channel Colby J Ryan because Because I think it's something that many of us will, really none of us will be able to understand.

Like, this is only you can understand what it would be like. And so thank you for sharing and allowing us to try to, you know, understand too and help us actually gain a little bit more compassion and empathy for the situation. Your siblings were murdered. your dad was murdered Charles you refer to him as a father I believe your father and um and your mother is responsible going into her second trial your mother's been convicted of murdering uh your brother you know to your sister your I just so thank you for being here um I know that you You and John have, I want to share this, like John and Colby have a closer relationship than I do. I watch you, Colby.

I admire you. And, you know, and I watched your show last night as you were trying to process the new interview with the CBS affiliate in Phoenix, Arizona family, where Brianna interviewed your mother. Again, you interviewed your mother since her conviction. Keith Morrison has interviewed your mother since her conviction and now Brianna. Um, right. And just seeing it from your eyes too, it was difficult and it helped me process it a little bit more too. So I know we'd like to talk about that a bit too and pick your brain. But then also, you know, John's here, a criminal psychologist.

So if you want to ask him any questions or any questions, feel free. I think this is a conversation among friends. The day before opening statements of your mother's trial. So, thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. John, did you have anything you wanted to ask Colby right off the bat as far as this interview goes?

Not specific questions. I think I just want to get his thoughts and feelings about, you know, being on the eve of another trial. And, you know, I did see his show last night where he responded to another interview that Lori did. and I think there's just that alone is a lot to unpack. So I guess my first question is just, you know, how are you doing? Colby, are you kind of, are you hanging in there okay? Yeah. It's a lot to process, right?

Remember when they split the Chad and Lori's trial to two different ones. So I knew, oh, my gosh, we're going to do it twice. That just felt like a lot. And then now here we are again. And it just feels like the last since I was basically 22, it has been going on. And I'm turning 29, you know, this month. So it's a long part of my life. And I think what was really interesting last night is that was the first time I've seen her in really a calm state of mind.

This whole time, you guys have heard the phone call we had together when it was just me and her. And she's super confrontational with me. She's telling me you don't know anything. She's completely combative towards me. And then in this last one we did, she love bombed me and tells me, you're the only person that I ever want to tell this stuff to. You're the only one in the world I'm alive for. And that got me because a part of you is still an inner kid that is hurting for your mom. But then when I sat with that, I went and we processed that John as well talking about it, how manipulative she is and how manipulative her story is.

And so to see her last night the way that she was with Brianna, it just, it was really, it took me off guard because she was so calm. She sounded more like the Lori that I grew up with, right? The more, the one that people knew. And so when I saw her like that, it was really confusing for me because she's sitting there saying, I'm wrongfully convicted of doing what I did. Right. And she sounds so calm. Like she was just so calm with that. So I think that that really messed me up.

to be honest. Yeah, that was that was kind of the consistent theme I noticed last night. It was just you kept saying, is this mental illness? Is this something else? Like I think you were really trying to process what was going on, right? Like, because there has been this, this theory of this perception that maybe this is mental illness. You know, maybe it's something like schizophrenia or something, right, or psychosis or something so severe that she's, she has no contact with reality, but that's not what you saw in that interview.

Right. I think what was even scarier is she's backtracking her beliefs. So I even called it. I said she's going to say she never said zombies like she told me, never believed that. And so it's really weird because I can't figure her out at this point. Right. We've talked about a lot of the pop culture references that she seemed to gravitate towards into her religious beliefs.

And so like there's a part of me, I guess, that wants to figure out what is going on inside her head. I don't know why. I don't know why my mind is trying to go down that rabbit hole. But something about me is just trying to see if I can figure out anything that will put make sense to me so I can kind of be put some closure to that. And for her to be now backtracking the zombies thing and everything that she did and just the worst part last night was her saying it was a.

domino effect of unfortunate events. And I'm thinking to myself, you caused the unfortunate events. Your main catalyst, none of this would happen. Chad wasn't going to show up in Arizona and kill my family without you, right? So you can blame whoever you want, but you are the mother and you are the main piece to everything. Nothing happens. You're the gatekeeper.

And especially as your own children. And so I'm just trying to figure out where she's at, with her religious beliefs and then how she's able to convince herself that she is just sitting in prison and God sent her there so she could preach to people in her pod and teach them Taekwondo or whatever crap she says she's teaching them and pray with them and all this stuff she now she's saying that she was sent to the trenches so now it's completely it's completely not her fault and this is now part of the plan But then she told Keith that she's going to break out and be exonerated with Chad.

So I can't figure her out. And I think that for some reason, I keep reeling on it. And so last night, with her demeanor, with what she said, with her talking about being wrongly convicted, it would just be nice to honestly have her from watch this to be like, you know what? I, whatever her reason is, I messed up really badly. And I don't think she owes me an apology. As weird as that sounds, it would just be closure, be like, okay. that's it at least you acknowledge it but to be completely a that it's we're all crazy and she's not is it's hard one thing you sort of mentioned to uh watching your reaction to this interview was

you thought this is like the mom you kind of knew more so than the mom that you had interviewed a few months ago i can't remember what the interview was that you did with her right you can watch that full interview you did with your mom, by the way, on Colby's YouTube channel, and it's worth it. In fact, everybody, just to thank Colby for being here and what you're doing, please head over and subscribe to Colby's channel. Colby J. Ryan. We'll have a link. Any moderators can continue to share Colby's link. But that was one thing. I wanted to actually ask John about, too, both you and John. Was that hard, though, Colby? seeing like a mother you knew before she was a convicted murderer?

Yeah. I mean, it struck a chord for me because now she's starting to sound like the person I knew. So I'm like, oh, you're still in there a little bit, not a lot. But there's a part of you that exists inside the monster that's been created. So I think that was always at first I was fishing for that for years. I'm like, is there anything left or is she crazy out of her mind gone? and that Lori's gone. When she sat there and said, I do hair,

she sat there and said that she's an instructor. I'm like, oh, you're pulling real events. So there's a part of you that's conscious enough to remember reality. So then it just becomes even more confusing. Now I'm thinking to myself, you're pulling out of your religious beliefs, you're remembering, you're talking like this is prior to all of this happening, that nothing's ever changed, that you love everybody and you're still the Disneyland mom. And so that's why last night I just thought to myself,

you're actually even more crazy. It actually scared me more that you are this. You're literally two-faced to like the, I mean, if you're looking at this side, it's completely different than the other. So I think that that's when I was, that what really hurt, I guess last night, was to see her in some type of normal form

because I was wondering if that existed still. Any thoughts on that, John? Because I'm confused too. I think, yeah, I think Colby alluded to it last night when he talked about that Keith was different, that, you know, her demeanor was different. And I think some of that has to do. And her demeanor was different with you, Colby, when you did her interview. I think it was because you guys were a little more confrontational. Yeah.

You guys, you guys were much more direct. I think you guys were, you guys were not interested in the, in the lies and the BS, right? It seemed like you guys wanted answers. And, you know, I think it was just a different interview approach. I think Brianna really, really just wanted to listen. I think she came in with a little bit of a different perception or different take on how to approach Lori,

probably because she listened to your interviews. She listened to you and Keith and saw that she wasn't going to make much headway, you know, coming out of the blog. with confrontational challenging questions. So I think she, I mean, because she starts the interview with, why are you representing herself? And then you know, Corby, she goes on like this rambling, right, irrelevant answer about how she's a prison advocate for these women that are on death row.

Like, with that, okay. So, I mean, okay, so what, so you're going to, Is she going to stand up now and like make welcome to the world. Is she going to make this impassioned plea for that women on death row and not herself? Right. And then she starts. Yeah. She starts talking about teeth and starts talking about how if your tooth gets rotten,

you get pulled out and it just goes on the tangent. And I think that that's the problem. And I understand date lines. At first I was like, okay, I thought they were sitting down like this and they were just going to talk it out. And they were just going to play the whole thing. And I think that obviously that's kind of a, that was just my, my own thought process. But I think that's why they probably cut a lot of it because she will sit there. So what's interesting is she's wanted a platform for a while.

I think the Dateline thing she had been in contact with them. I think they even said it for a long time. So in her, let's let's use her analogy. In her mind, okay, she's wanted to tell the story of Tiley for some reason. don't know why this is so significant, but for some reason it's all about Tiley. Tiley is the main piece to all of this every time you ask her questions about what's happened. It's not about Charles or J.J. Or anybody else about Chad, it's about Tiley.

And I can't figure that out. So to watch her have that conversation and just float around and try to say I'm this heart-playing angel that loves everybody and I'm still the same. I love my kids. It's really crazy because without that structure of the interviewer, stopping her and asking hard questions, that's what I guess she wants to talk about. I think she just wants a platform to ramble. And then she also wants to say, I'm protecting Tiley's name. This is what she told me directly.

She's protecting Tiley's name. And she's going to stay in prison for the rest of her life to do so. And that she is going to, and it's all wrong. So to me, it's like, okay, so if that is the truth. if this is all tylie's fault then why don't you just shut up and take it why are you even complaining you can't have it both ways and that's what makes her so she's a split house and she doesn't know what she thinks or believes but i can't figure out if that's the mental illness or if that's just because she's all over the place and obviously is lying to herself so she doesn't know

how to keep anything straight um but that interview to me just showed that she just wants to ramble and I think now she knows people want to hear her talk. So maybe it's just attractive to her to know, hey, people want to hear from me. So maybe there's a sense of being wanted in such a lonely position. That's the only thing I can conclude from that. I don't know. Mom, can you tell me a story? Sure. Once upon a time, a mom needed a new car. Was she brave?

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I have so many questions, and we're actually getting so many good questions on chat, too I want to share. Well, first off, I just want to point this comment out. Put a pin in this, because I think... Jody Hildebrand said that she could not wait to preach the gospel to prisoners in the Utah State Prison. I wonder how that's going for her. Sort of similar.

And I know that there are a lot of similarities between those two cases. And you've seen this too, right, Colby? Like you've seen these bizarre similarities. So that's interesting. Question for John, because we're talking about Brianna's interview. Do you think that her behavior was different because it was a woman interviewing her? Well, this is a question for both you and Colby. Or was she just practicing calm for court?

I mean, I think the fact that, you know, Brianna was female probably didn't hurt. I think she was maybe less threatened by that. I think to have Colby and Keith Morrison kind of getting in her face a bit, right, and wanting direct answers, I think she was feeling threatened. As Colby just pointed out, you know, she says in this interview later, She tells us exactly why she's representing herself. She says, quote, I'm there to tell the truth.

Right? She wants to, like Colby just said, she wants to get her version of events out. She believes her lawyers in Idaho didn't do that. So now here she's going to, because she has the floor and people have to listen to her, she's going to give you, apparently she thinks she's going to give you her version of the truth, which she thinks is the truth. And part of the problem with Keith and Colby's interviews was they didn't accept that version of the truth. And so, you know, I think that's one of the reasons she was so combated because she, in her mind's eyes, she wants to tell the truth.

And people aren't letting her do that. And Colby didn't accept it. Keith Morrison didn't accept it. This interviewer was more willing to accept it, I think, except, you know, her attorney sitting there, wouldn't let her explain what she meant by family tragedy or the domino effect of tragedies. I mean, we kind of know what she means based on her previous interviews with Colby. But I think this is about her, obviously this isn't about getting an acquittal because it's not going to change the outcome. It's not going to change the fact that she's going to spend the rest of her life in prison.

This is about her having a platform to give her version of events, which she wants all of us to believe, including Keith Morrison, right? I think that's one of the reasons she was so upset with him because Keith kept pushing back. He's like, no, right? He's like, no, that didn't happen.

Right, and Kobe, Kobe did a version of that too. He's like, really? You're going to go after Tiley? Yeah. Well, I think you guys remember that part real quick that when Keith said, he didn't even say anything.

And she says, so you're going to sit there and shake your head and say no, like, you don't believe me? And I'm like, that's really hostile for someone that didn't even speak anything. So I think why it worked so well last night. And this is not against Brianna because I don't know her or her interview style, but she didn't give her that push. She didn't try to direct her. She just asked some really soft questions and kind of wanted to let her talk like a normal human. And I think that that made her more comfortable. So she doesn't want to answer those questions.

he wants to tell you what you don't know from her perspective and have you just eat it and believe it. And there's no room for anything else. There's no evidence against her. There's no case against her. This is all, this is all an attack on her life from Satan. This is all Satan's fault. And it's not her fault at all.

And she did nothing wrong. And she's a victim. So it's interesting to me to watch her turn the table now to, oh, and now I'm going to help these other people because they're victims too. Apparently everybody in there's a victim to wrong. to wrongful things happening around them. It's all so coincidental that everybody else that she's friends with now shares the same burden as her, where they're all being blamed for something that didn't happen. So what can you do with that?

She's always a victim. I want to talk about that. But let me just say my thought, though, about the interviewer. I think with Colby, actually, I don't think Kobe was in Lori's face. I actually think you did a really good job listening to Lori when you interviewed her. And Keith Morrison definitely pushed at the end. I mean, you maybe pushed a little bit more at the end, Colby, because like you couldn't believe what she was saying. But I'm going to point out something to Lori wanted something from you, Colby.

Lori wanted validation from you. She wanted you back in her life when you were interviewing her. She said things like it has hurt to lose you. I deserve to be in my, you know, grandchildren's lives. She kind of implied those things. I felt like to kind of manipulate you to get you back into her life. I think she wanted something with Keith. I think she wanted to be on dateline.

She wanted to know, I believe that they were talking for months and months. She was probably pushing for certain things. I think what she wanted from Brianna, maybe she went in just thinking, what I want from this is to look like a peacemaker and to look like a victim, to look passive. And so I think that Lori acts how she wants because she always wants something from. somebody, including the people that are interviewing her. And then that goes back to always being a victim. Like she is, you're right, Colby. She is always the victim.

No, that's like one thing that remains the same with Lori. She is always the victim. And I was curious, John, like, are most criminals you interview always the victims? What is that? I think victimization is often a common feature among people. with personality disorders, you know, since I didn't, since I didn't interview Lori or tester or, you know, I don't have any relationship with her. I can't obviously speculate about diagnoses, but I can say that Judge Boyce in Idaho did present some of her diagnoses. And one of

them was, you know, that she had multiple personality disorders. He didn't articulate what they were. But I think, especially in Cluster B, there is a tendency, oftentimes for certain personality disorders to step into that victim role quite easily. Narcissistic personality disorder would be one of those. Although psychopathy, or the classic psychopath is not technically a diagnosis in the DSM, it is something that. that psychologists assess for, you know, this victim stance is quite common among psychopaths because they think they're right about everything, as do narcissists, that there's no room for being wrong, there's no margin of error, there's no mistakes, there's no learning,

there's no empathy, right? That you, when you put yourself in a position where you're never wrong and your version of the truth is correct, then you're really opening the door for this victim role. Because where else is there to go? you're not taking responsibility yeah i'll just add real quick too i think you're exactly right i think what's what i'm wondering is there's a there's a craving there always was a craving there for that stardom i think she wanted to feel special and i think that the victim role maybe somewhat gives her this idea that people care so much and i think she's searching so hard you said i think

in our interview too, Johnny, and I'm sure you said it again, but that she's trying to feel that void. And I think that her way to do that right now is to say, you don't know me. You have no idea who I am. I'm misunderstood, but I'm not going to tell you why I'm misunderstood because I don't really know what's going on, but I know that everybody's talking about me. Like she can't, she can't, you know, figure it out. And so the victim role in her mind is to gain more empathy because she feels the loneliness. And one thing I'll say, Brianna, did say that I thought was interesting was talking about what is your relationship like with Chad that was something that I wondered too because like there's no relationship like it's as it's as

good as it can be what does that even mean you really even you're still married to him he's not married to you he ditched so he's gone and his and his way so I don't know she's just she wants some people to feel bad for her and to coddle her and I'm wondering what wound opened that door in her life to get her to this level where now she is the ultimate victim. And it's not Tiley. It's not JJ. It's not Charles. It's not Tammy. It's her. She's the one that is suffering. And she's doing it, though, for a good purpose. That's what's really, really getting to me. Did you see that, by the way? Did she adopt this victim role when you were growing up? Or is this more pronounced now? I think she created chaos in our lives because she didn't know how to be calm.

I think that she obviously had a lot of wounds from her early point in her life. And by the time she had me, she started to treat me more like a support and crutch. But she had to create chaos in her own life because she couldn't have a normal life. and I think that that chaos probably fed into her drama, the need for attention, the need of victim mentality. You know, like even with everything that happened in my childhood, she would always run around telling everybody and gain sympathy from them for her as a mother. And I would ask her when I got to a teenager, I'm like, can you stop telling everybody you've met about everything that's happened in my life personally? like that's that would be really nice to stop everybody knows everything about me before i even have ever met them myself so there's a part of her that just craves something whether you want to

call it the spotlight or drama or something that that needs regardless it's attention she wants someone's attention and you know what was interesting to me i remember being a kid and her going to Will of Fortune. I remember her, you know, I think she always wanted something there. There was something about her that says, I'm better than this. And so I don't know how it got to this level, but it definitely existed in some form before all of this started. Colby, I'm going to share something that I noticed about you that I've never shared. So I've been following this case since your brother and sister were missing, you know, before we had found them. And I remember actually, so I was following all of the media.

And it was December 2019. I don't remember when you did this YouTube live. I think it was probably the end of December 2019. But you got on. Do you remember this live to plead with your mother? You said, I don't know where you are, mom. Okay. So I recognize something from back then on.

I haven't seen it since then. But you were trying to ask your mother to tell you where the kids were while also apologizing to her. You would be, I could tell you walked on eggshells with her from that moment. You would say, mom, where are the kids? But mom, I'm not blaming you for anything. Mom, I'm not blaming you. You're a great mom. Tell us where the kids are.

But don't worry, I could see the eggshells that you walked. on your entire life. So when you say she's always been the victim or she causes chaos, just to you know, the first time I ever saw you, I was like, oh, this is, her son walked on eggshells with her. So just, you know, I saw that from the very first time I ever saw you. That's a great point. Yeah. I mean, you're exactly right.

And that's something I just learned. And I think I'm just, it's crazy because sometimes we'll do our lives. And I'm like realizing really to full effect. now as a man the way that I acted with her. I apologized all the time. I constantly apologize because her reactions were so over the top, over everything. And so I learned to be a version of the most passive, don't ask for your needs. Don't upset her. Always make sure she feels special. And I always felt guilty because all I ever heard is she's such a great mother and she protected you in court and she's buying you all this stuff and I'm like yeah but I don't I don't care about any of that as a kid

a kid would rather live in a cardboard box with their family and feel loved than have everything in the world and I didn't realize the traumatic relationship I had with her and I didn't realize that I was her support and I would come to her and say hey I'm really struggling with this and she would flip her lid. Now I'm supporting her because she's upset about the situation that I'm in. So no longer do my feelings exist. And now I am now cuddling her. And so we had a really unhealthy relationship. And it's really unfortunate because it caused so much passiveness in my own life and that that frustration and anger that comes with never feeling heard. And you just feel like am I crazy? And I experienced this last night with that reaction.

I'm like, am I crazy? Like, maybe she is nice. No, and that's exactly the way I used to do. It's rationalizing and making her better than she is and not accepting the fact that she's flawed because I love her. And so that was always the battle. And that's a really great insight, by the way, because it took me, it's still taking me time to get over just that aspect of our relationship personally, that I am not her. And I used to serve her, right? Like I used to be more of a servant because I always wanted to please her.

I always wanted to. Yeah, that's wild. I used to literally do everything I could, like, fetch her the drink and just do every little thing to make sure she never got upset. I think that was my whole goal in life is don't upset your mom. She's done everything for you. She takes care of you and don't ever upset her. And, you know, what comes to that is a lot of guilt all the time. If you ever do anything wrong or step out of bounds, you always feel guilty like you did something.

wrong. And if I upset her, then I always am apologizing all day, all the time, telling her what a great mother she is, reinforcing the fact that she's done everything she can. And it's just almost like a form of conditioning. And I think that's why it's kind of a big break right now is to realize all that stuff from my childhood. That's just personal to me that I have to deal with on top of everything else that's going on. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers, spammers, even stalkers. It's why you

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Protect yourself now atora.com slash remove. Yeah, yeah. we've come a long ways. Yeah. So, yeah, I noticed that from the moment, 2019. I was like, oh. Yeah, I recognize when people walk on eggshells. And I noticed that, you know, I noticed her do that with Brianna yesterday, too.

And Brianna directly actually said to her in the interview, you can get, what was the word she used? Pushy or Snapy. She said, nappy. Napy. Snappy. And she did. She sort of did some gas sliding a little bit. That's not true.

I'm a peacemaker. I'm kind. I'm wonderful. And, you know, Biana did back down a little bit after that. Like, yeah. And that's just like a subtle example. And she was being nice last night, right?

Or not last night. Whenever this interview was done. She was being nice. Right, right. And yet, yet, you know, hey you are snappy no I'm not I'm a peacemaker and then it's like oh okay it's just you know that's one little subtle where she she could have said well she she could have said well that's not what we're seen in court right like she could have pushed back a little and I don't

I don't want to be I don't want to be critical of Brianna by the way like she I think her purpose was her purpose was to get in there she had 30 minutes which is no time whatsoever she just wanted to get in She wanted to get sound bites, right? She just wanted to know a little bit more about Lori. Like, I think she did a good job given the situation. Yeah. Well, I think you have to look at Lori. Go ahead.

Oh, no, I was just going to say that that's an example of how during the interview, that, you know, during any interview, you have a choice to sort of go along and, you know, not react or to push back a little. and that was a moment where she could have pushed back. You know, she could have said, she could have said, well, I'm not seeing that in court. I'm seeing some anger. I'm seeing some, you know, combat of behavior. Yeah, exactly.

I think that she, you have to look at Lori as one of those, you've ever been to the zoo and seen one of those little frogs that look so tiny and they're just beautiful color, but they're extremely poisonous. You can't touch them. It's kind of that type of thing where it's like they present no things. threat to you immediately. But if you touch it, you're dead. So it's, it's scary because those are the most scary thing. I'm just, I'm being serious. Like it's, it's, it's scary because it's so, it's such a good analogy. Right. It's such a good analogy. But it's so true. Because she's not

coming out with her teeth up front. She's passive. She's quietly manipulative. She makes you feel bad. She makes you back down. And she's, she's, she's not dominant, but she is. But it's, it's, it's not upfront. It's so it's so interwoven in the language. And so you don't feel the immediate effect. You just start realizing you're dying because you dealt with the frog. So she's, she's really good at that. And so that's why I think people like even again, not to go against Breonna, but the same exact I think is that she doesn't look threatening. Even Keith was like, I kind of enjoyed some of the conversation because it doesn't feel like some of it is pleasant. And I'm like, yeah, because she's like, she's going to, she's going to pull you in and kill you like a Venus fly trap.

Like you just, you don't know when the snap's going to come. I've just had so much experience that I think that that's why I share my point of view because I know when she's cooking up. And then that fuse blows really quickly. But then she'll come back to you and tell you how loving she is and non-confrontational. Do you see her in her way she talks to that judge? The way she disrespects everybody around her and everything. So it's really weird to watch from this point where now everybody gets to see this. But it also validates a lot because now everybody's like, oh, I see what you're saying.

I'm like, oh, so I'm not nuts. That's kind of nice. I always felt like I was always wrong all the time. That was a worst son that I always did. You know, I could have been better in this and done this and whatever the cases. But really, I was just trying to please someone that I didn't need to. but you know so so talk about that for a minute so you're you're suggesting that the way she treats the judge strikes a familiar chord for you growing up that's that's how you felt you want to know

what's actually more messed up she treats the judge more like she treated charles that's how she treats the judge she was blatantly disrespectful to charles in front of our entire family and belittled him in front of our functions and I literally would pull her to the side and say you've got to chill out she goes was I being mean I'm like no you weren't being mean you were ruthless you talked in front of our entire family and you called him an idiot and you and you literally made him probably feel like an aunt in front of your entire family

on your side so I think that there is and I I will just say it like this the Jezebel idea of a dominant woman that gets men to fall over her for some reason, that's kind of the idea to it is she, if you don't fall under her spell, then now she's going to destroy you. So it's like you either love her or you get destroyed, right? And I think that she's taking the way she talks to that judge reminds me of that. Then the disrespect and I mean, obviously she's off a rocker with how many times she repeats and asks the same question. Like when they were talking about the IP address, I get it. I didn't, I felt like I was going to faint because I couldn't believe how many times he said.

I said, I told you five times. And she's like, how is he doing it wrong? I'm like, I'm going to end the live here. Thanks, guys. Have a great night. But no, it's, it really is one of those situations where it mostly of anything reminds me of how she treated Charles. And so it makes me think of does she have a disdain for men, but also no, she can manipulate

men. And so I've played with the scenario and what's going on inside her mind for a long. time. But that's probably the thing I noticed the most. Well, so, so put yourself in that, in that family situation. Like if, if that's how she treated Charles, how did you feel about that, about, you know, how did that affect you in terms of watching that type of interaction with your dad? Yeah, it was, it was weird because he wasn't there a lot, right? He was out of town a lot. but when he was there, there was just, I, so I, I didn't realize this to later. I was, I left the house at 17 and I didn't realize, I thought I was trying to chase my dreams.

I was trying to get out, the dynamic between Charles, Lori, and Tiley, and then JJ, and just the dysfunction across the board and the fighting and the bickering and the, it was just unpleasant all the time. And it sounds really selfish that I tried to leave, but I didn't realize that I was doing that because I would leave and then come back. And then I would get back and I would feel so depressed. And I'm thinking to myself, oh, it's probably because you think you failed your dream. And it's like, no, the environment is horrible here. And I didn't realize how much I isolated myself.

Like I was always in my room and away and just realized like just as of late that it was a horrible place to be. And our house was not a home and it was messy and there was just fighting. And I think I just needed to get out of that. But I didn't realize that. So it's really weird because I'm learning that now, you know, later in my life, but by watching her do it to other people in public. It's wild. It's hard to put into context what it's like.

but it makes me realize as I get older and have my own marriage dynamic and my own kids. And you start thinking about how you want to present yourself and how you want your kids to learn. I'm thinking of myself, I would never do 95% of what my mom did and the way she handled situations, I would never do it. So I think that's probably the biggest eye opener from that whole family dynamic is how to do it differently. Yeah. Sometimes those are the best things to learn during. our childhood is how to do things differently.

So yeah. You know. And actually, according to John, not too many, not everyone learns that, right? John. So most people don't learn that. It's hard to learn that. It's, that's why the cycle of abuse or violence or dysfunction in families continues. Because people don't learn that and they just repeat it.

You know, I was talking to Kelsey about that. Yeah. And you said it that you and I talked about it, John, a little bit. But you said that, like, I'm concerned for you. I think about you in that way, like a chain breaking way because of all the trauma and all those things. I just keep thinking to myself. I told Kelsey this other day, I said, it feels like I have to crawl on glass so my kids can walk in the meadow. Meaning, I need to break the chains for everybody else.

And if that's, if that's the sacrifice, it's worth it. because I don't have to repeat anything she did. And no matter how much I'm hurt, that doesn't mean it's fair for me to say, well, I'm a hurt person. So F everybody and I'm going to take all my stuff out on everybody else. And I just wish more people could see that because, again, if my mom was hurt and hurt people, hurt people,

she could have made that decision too. So I think it is tough because it's hard for me to feel, I guess the word sorry for her because it's a choice. You make choices and you keep making them over and over and over and they keep leading you where you go, but you can always make a different choice at the next fork. But what's unfortunate to see is that she took all of that, whatever trauma she did have in her life and kept going the wrong way over and over at every opportunity. So well said.

Many people here saying, yeah, you are the cycle breaker, breaking generational change. you've got this Colby. A real Jedi, does Edomami. Oh, that's too kind. That's too nice for me. No, it's funny. I want to weigh it on the chaos idea just quickly.

Also, I want to amplify this idea of how important it is. Chaos does a couple of things. Number one, it disrupts and it puts people on tilt. It puts people off balance. And because of that, gives the person creating chaos power.

So chaos, creating chaos is really about exerting power because you're throwing people off balance and then you're stepping into that void and you're taking control. And the other thing chaos does, if you create chaos all the time, you're focusing, you're redirecting attention on you. The creator of that chaos is not only exerting power,

but they're also seeking unlimited attention. And that's why you see someone like, your mother create chaos perpetually because it gives them power it throws others off balance and it provides this potentially i don't again i'm not diagnosing here but this narcissistic supply or this this constant source of attention right and i think um i think that it sounds like that applies to to your mother i think that's a good point i think another great example and this goes exactly what you just said. You know, she's always kept herself in really great shape,

but I was a really out of shape kid. Tiley was out of shape and then JJ got out of shape. But she was the one feeding us. But yet she was shredded and in great perfect health. And Kelsey's the one that brought this up. So don't give me the credit here. But she's like, isn't it wild that the person who is feeding you and giving you the McDonald's and doing all the stuff constantly

is the one who gets to. stay in perfect shape and kind of you kind of look at it from a power dynamic. And I'm like, yeah, I never thought of it that way. You know what I mean? I just thought that we were just, and you don't think of things like that. And so it really does become that it's a secret power. It's not someone who comes up to you and is forcing you to do something. It's always off balance. Like you just said, it's always shifting. And there was a part of her who she lit fires and love to see things burn. And so it's it's it's hard to realize that though that that was really the truth because I always looked at my mom as such a rock and I always believed that she was so

such a fighter and was a single mom for a while and just tried to do everything she could provide for us. And I just gave her so much credit. So I have to like backtrack to that time and say, wait, hold up. What the frick were you doing back then? Like what what no matter what our situation was, you kept making it worse on purpose. There was a point where you were the only one in charge and you kept putting us in bad situations just so you could be a victim again. And so I think that's a hard,

that's a hard reality to face as an adult. How messed up other parts of our lives really were that I haven't, I didn't realize as a kid. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent.

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all backed by 24-7 U.S.-based fraud support. Other companies might sell just credit monitoring, or just a VPN. ORA gives you all of it, together, at the same price competitors charge for just one service. Start your free trial today at aura.com slash remove. Protect yourself now at aura.com slash remove. That was a lot of insight, and John, you probably have something to say, So did you have something that I have a question for you? I think children, you know, children are focused on survival.

And they don't, they don't really, you know, they're not in a position to challenge their parents. They're not in a position to observe or to understand what their parents are doing, right? And so I think that's what makes it so difficult is, you know, you're in the fish ball with the fish and you don't know that the fish, like you, two years here now, you don't know that the frog's poisonous. You don't know that the fish are poisonous. You're just trying to survive and you just trust that the fish are going to take care of you. Yeah, that's a great point. Yeah, you don't think about it. You know, it's only later that I think once we recognize the wounds and the pain and we get a little bit older that we can observe that, hey, you know what, maybe this happened to me too.

you know maybe my parents aren't who i thought they were right maybe maybe this ideal of of of these really healthy parents is not exactly what i got yeah exactly going i i want to ask yeah i want to ask a little bit more about how lorry fed you guys and maybe this is actually a question for john because you explained it really well colby and you said she's the one feeding us yet she was so in shape and she was so fit and we've heard some from friends that she had a body dysmorphia almost she was always worried about looking a certain way um she per you know she was a miss mrs texas um right and i've heard that from other people too just so you know that there was always junk food in your house in that uh yes really like tiley only had options

to almost just eat a certain way she did or whatever the case may be and so i guess my question is for John, what is that about? Like, someone that cares so much about looking a certain way, thus giving, feeding those that she should protect and love the most junk food and not helping them with their help. It's about control. And it's about, it gives her control. It's about power and control. It gives her the ability to keep them in their place and to point the finger at them as being unhealthy when, in fact, she's the one driving it.

It's a way for her not to take responsibility. I mean, the irony is that a healthy person that's eating well and in shape and staying healthy wants their children to be healthy, right? They're not going to feed them all this junk food so that they're unhealthy. In a way, it's a measurement of her mental health. It's a reflection of her lack of mental health. Because the very thing she's doing for herself, she's incapable of doing for her children. Just like Colby said earlier, like a parent's responsibility in many ways is to promote the health, mental and physical health of their children. And what Lori did was she reversed that dynamic and made cold.

attend to her. He had Colby, Colby was in the parental role attending to her emotional needs, not the opposite. And that's, you know, that's, that's not a, it's not a healthy dynamic.

It's an extremely unhealthy dynamic. Yeah. I like what Krista says. This is me. Krista said, I, I feed my kids junk food, but I'm right there eating it with them.

Right. Which, you know, know, it's fine. I'm not the past, yeah, no, trust me. I'm not saying I'm perfect. No, of course not. You know, I, well, and the thing is we're. Yeah.

And that happens. And the thing is, it's not about, the thing is, it's not about the perfection. But when you are that obsessed with yourself and then you're like literally overfeeding, like, I could easily tell you how much I over ate. I had zero limit, right? There wasn't, no, that's too many. Like, no, I could just pop and eat and do whatever. I wanted that was available.

And I think that you're so emotional and you're just a kid. You don't know. You don't have a limit in your brain. You're like, oh, yeah, no, that's too much lucky charms. It's like, no, give me six more bowls, just the marshmallows. Like, I don't want anything other than that. So you're at a point with yourself where it's really, it's really weird just because now that I'm a parent and my kids are growing up and I think about their well-being.

And I think about becoming better version of myself so they get the best version. and all the things in the hoops and all the sacrifices and things you want to do for your kids, I don't see that with her. The only thing I really give her credit for is at least giving us the basics, right? And she did make it fun for us. But I almost used all of those good things to completely cover all the other stuff up and just say, no, she was a good mom. And it was almost like the repeat idea. Like, no, she was a great mom.

she was a great mom and I'm like now everybody else is saying that so it must be true like when this fall first started it's like everybody's saying oh no she was once a great mom and I'm like I don't know what do you define as a great mom I don't know no one's perfect but that's I wouldn't do a lot of the stuff my mom did for my kids or to my kids or put them in an emotional position to hold me up that's not their job that's not in any way shape or form should they ever feel responsible for my emotions and feel that they need to support me through life. That is not healthy, like John said. So you guys have me out here doing doing breakthroughs and therapy right now. My goodness gracious. There's because we need it too. There are people in chat saying this is more like a therapy

session and I needed it. So our chat's kind of grateful too. We're all having therapy together. Someone pointed out that what about the irony that she encouraged? I encouraged Chad to lose weight and put him on a workout plan, you know, showing that. That was crazy. When you saw his picture to when they first saw him, I went, whoa, he's been doing pushups, huh? She's got him on a clock. Yeah, she did. She's got Peter Griffin working.

I'm telling you right now, he is working his butt off. Well, he knows Peter Griffin and the poison his dart frog. So. Yeah. Yeah. The forces. What a pair. The tale.

The tale of Peter and the frog. That's a book, huh? It could be a garbage. Or a sitcom. Right. If it weren't so real and dark, it would be. I know, right? That's true.

That's true. Well, I think that's another great point that you guys make is I think some people mistake my lightheartedness in some of the situations as making fun of it or trying to to make light of it. And I'm like, you don't understand that I'm not laughing at the dark part of it. We're talking about how ridiculous some of this stuff is. And it really sometimes in certain situations, a laugh or cry situation. And so sometimes it's nice to not always just be leveled by this stuff and laugh at the parts that are ridiculous. because some of the stuff is absolutely comical of how ridiculous it is.

And it's, you know, you have to laugh sometimes. So well said. We say oftentimes you're either going to laugh or you're going to cry. And honestly, that joke came because you said this is like a really heavy therapy session. And I thought, you know, it's true. And maybe we need a bit of a break for just a second. And since I'm married to a psychologist, he tells me it's okay, right? That's okay.

It's okay to do that because, yeah, you're either going to laugh. You can't cry all the time. Exactly. You know. So, yeah. And I became good friends with Tammy Daybell's aunt Vicky. I know you know Vicky too, Colby. And she's taught me the same thing.

She's, you know, made plenty of jokes about the storm. So you're in good company. Yeah. People, people, you know, it's healthy to laugh. And it doesn't mean the tragedy isn't there. exactly exactly the small storm anybody yeah

little baby one it's more like a drizzle okay um right John and so yeah maybe we need to turn to John to get us back on track here I don't you've gone you guys have gone so far off the rails

I don't know if I can bring it back it's over it's over now thanks guys appreciate you but thanks for coming have a good night right uh i i don't i mean um i guess i would just you know because you're we're talking about this um as a bit of a therapy session i just want to say that when colby and i met on the set of sins of our mother years ago now i can't believe how long it's been. But, you know, it's interesting. I just want to say, Colby, I appreciate how far you've come.

You know, you and I, you and I, you don't remember you and I had a pretty intense conversation then. And I know you were really, really, you were really starting to grapple with it and, you know, to come to turn, try to come to terms with a lot of these issues. But I could tell at that time that it was really difficult. And I recognize that, I recognize that I recognize that. that I had to be really cautious in terms of our conversation and things we talked about. And I just want to say, you know, how much I appreciate the amount of growth that you've experienced and this journey you're on because it's really amazing.

So thank you for, thank you for doing what you do. I appreciate that. I remember when we met, I had so many questions because you were probably one of the first people I spoke to face-to-face and was even willing to realize some of the psychological side of this and maybe where my mom's mind was at at that time. And I was still really holding on and battling because I didn't know how to let all that stuff go with her. and just I was so torn still because it was so fresh and I think that I just remember saying they're fascinated

with some of the stuff you were saying and you did a way you explained it and I really wish they would have shown that because it just I remember that conversation I was like oh that makes a lot of sense and you just were able to explain it and such a such a and I hope I use this word correctly but in a soft way right it wasn't you weren't just like

well she's just out of her mind and crazy or she's delusional or whatever like you just explained it. And I think for the first time that opened my mind up to, okay, so maybe there is actually a, maybe there's actually a reason or maybe there's something else going on. And it was just nice because in that time, I was still holding on to her so hard as a mom. So I really, I, that always, I always remember that conversation that we had. And thank you for saying that. I appreciate it. Yeah, I honestly was, was a little disappointed that they didn't include any of that conversation.

Right. We spoke for like, we spoke for like an hour. Not three minutes. You're a hour. We spoke for a few. Yeah, we spoke for a while. Not a minute of that conversation made it in.

But that's the way it goes, I guess with, you know, shows. I guess so. That's why we're here. That's why we have a live conversation. So you guys can know you're not. there's no behind the scenes anyone's missing here.

Right. If we're going therapy session, I actually, there's, you and Colby had a really great conversation on Colby's channel. Was it a month or two ago? And I'm the worst with time. So if it was a year ago, forgive me. I think it was, it was in the end of last year, I want to say. Okay, end of last year.

Okay, end of last year. Thank you. And one thing you mentioned, struck a chord with me and I wanted to ask you a little bit more about it. Again, your wife, you said that you were talking about this with Kelsey. I'm so glad you guys are able to talk about these things. So Kelsey has a lot of insight. But you said that you guys were talking about how maybe as far as family systems go,

which John knows a lot about, he got his master's in family therapy. And then you went on to get a doctorate, that you were maybe the golden child and Tiley maybe a scapegoat. Can I ask you a little bit about that? And I thought maybe John could weigh in a little bit more too because I thought that was such an interesting observation and I'd love to hear more about it. All right. Well, I'll give you the best way to understand it is Tiley wasn't like me where she

wanted to conform. Tiley butted her head and I almost think that we all for me personally I thought it was an attack like oh Tiley's just being difficult with my mom no Tiley just didn't do what I did I was passive I laid down I wanted no problems I'll do anything you say and I just want to make you proud that was my my mind tiley was independent Tiley didn't like the way the things were but she craved that love from from my mom so she was in a really hard place I think um she got treated very differently than I did I was looked at as the chosen one. You know what I mean?

Like I'm, you know, she's so proud of me and everything I've accomplished. And I like all the same things as her and everything that I did. She took credit for. And, you know, I went to college and played basketball or I played football or I got in good shape or whatever.

No matter what I achieved, she taught me or could take credit. But for Tiley, she was the difficult one. She didn't conform. She didn't do all. the same things that my mom did. And I think that that is how you can tell of how she still to this day treats me and thinks of me versus Tiley. And that's why it's so heartbreaking for me to know as a

brother for Tiley that she was treated differently. And, you know, Tiley and I have a perfect relationship, right? I don't ever want people to think we were a normal brother and sister. We were six years apart and we got in fights and I thought she was annoying. She thought I was annoying. We we would get in our bickering, whatever the case is. But until I sat down with Tiley and did therapy like this, Kelsey and I both sat with her. It was the first time she ever opened up to me because like, you know, now she's at that point 14, 15 years old. And she's starting to tell me like, I have issues with mom. And I'm like, well, you just need to start, you know, mom's trying.

And like I just flipped it so hard to try to make peace. I thought that that was what a peacemaker is, is, well, maybe you don't understand how good of a person. person mom is. Instead of listening to Tiley's problems and helping her with what she actually felt and dealt with, I tried to flip it to let's just be everybody be kumbaya and be friends. So that dynamic though must have been really tough because I was completely treated differently and looked at as such a stud or whatever you want to call me, right, and put in a light where Tyler was not. And I think that she didn't have an incentive to really do anything. And I think that Tyler had a lot of depression that like I did and now Tyler isolated. I'm so grateful for

Tyler's friends because they gave her some support that she needed. But neither one of us got what we needed from our mom, regardless of how much I got praised. But Tyler got the worst end of that. she was not she was not treated the same as me and she was treated more of a problem and a she would scream like all these things it's almost like she was more of an issue and that I was like a such a great person or whatever the case was so it's it's hard to realize that reality you know but that that's how that's how the dynamic was yeah it is heartbreaking and right and looking back now we can see that yeah, Tiley was never the problem. It was her mother. But you guys both, you guys both handled it in different ways, as you point out. Yeah. And I think she was stuck. She didn't have an option like I

did. When I was 17, I left. Tiley didn't even have that, get to earn 17. So she didn't get a lot of choices in her life, you know. Any thoughts, John? No, I think Pauby described it well. That's, you know, it's, I think that there were, it sounds like there were different versions, different configurations of the family. One probably was that Colby was closer to his mother and the other was that Charles and Piley probably had a better relationship. Do you have, I, again, Colby, I actually, I admire it so much that you have a YouTube channel now for us to all listen to you because again,

none of us can put ourselves in your shoes. I think there are a lot of us trying, you know, like we have empathy and compassion for you. And I think it's admirable that you allow a lot of your processing to be public and that we can try to, you know, understand a little bit more. And I know that you're going to follow this trial on your channel.

Are, is there anything you're really worried about confronting or seeing or processing? I know there are a lot of people that care about you. And like I said, it's one thing for us to just like pull out the popcorn and watch Lori get snappy, you know, with the judge. But it's a whole other thing when it's your family.

that was murdered and you're her only remaining child watching this. Is there anything you're, um, super, you know, that you're worried about confronting or, or seeing, uh, upcoming trial? Yeah. Um, that's a great question. I think a lot of things. I think that there's a fear of the pain that comes with it. You know, like this was the first pain I remember happening because I remember every single

detail of that day of what my. mom told me about Charles and then finding out and like that feeling almost like I don't know how explained it's like getting back on a bike that you don't want to be on like you know you know what it feels like and so I think I'm worried about the pain that's going to come with it um I'm sad that she's making a mockery of all of it I'm sad about the fact that she's the nuclear bomb that went off that caused everything to change and I think more than anything um I wish it was just over. I think Charles deserves justice.

But to sit through it again is just, I can't put the word draining doesn't really cover that. I think more than anything, it really just is beyond exhausting. I mean, my entire 20s has, I don't, I can't put into context like an entire time has been something. Right. And so I think that part is hard. And it's just, it brings it all back up. The pain becomes present all over it. again. So I think it's more just facing the reality of the of the pains and then, you know,

having to hear all the new details of things that we didn't know about how much she planned it out. And it's it's really hard to hear that stuff to know because she's so dismissive. But obviously they have the evidence of her planning each and every detail out. And I think that that's really hard. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers, spammers, even stalkers. It's why you get endless robocalls and why ads seem to follow you everywhere.

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ORA gives you all of it, together, at the same price competitors charge for just one service. Start your free trial today at aura.com slash remove. Protect yourself now atora.com slash remove. Yeah. It's, yeah, it's wild. Do you think, well, it sounds like she isn't, on your channel, she did the most horrendous thing ever and she, she blamed your sister. And she blamed Tiley for everything. You know, which tells me that she's not too afraid to do that. You know, she did it.

She did it to you on your, your channel for, you know, people to hear. Do you think she's going to try a similar tactic with the, I? I mean, I know that this is about Charles, but her alluding to family tragedy in that interview yesterday, I mean, do you think she's going to allude to anything like that? Yeah. If you want my breakdown, this is what I think is going to happen. I think that she's going to blame Alex, but still hero him for saving them. She's going to blame Tiley for presenting a bat. She's going to try to get everybody she can on the witness stand

and make it look like that they were after her or that they tried to do something to her. And I think that she's going to somehow make it about Tiley. I don't know how she's going to tie it all in, but somehow it's all going to end up about being about Tiley. And I think that she's going to spend the next couple of weeks arguing about every little thing and her point will just be simply that she's a good person she didn't do anything wrong and somehow some way she'll come out with either blaming both Alex and Tiley or just Alex and Charles she'll blame Charles somehow it's going to end up being his fault for starting a fight in her

and that's the only the only way she really has to go and then she's going to bring in a bunch of character people and force them to answer questions about when she took care of them in their lives so that way she looks like a same and she's going to say remember when I helped you with this. Remember when, you know, you were in financial need and I gave you money. Do you remember this? She's going to try to pull in people to make her look good. And that's the only angle she really has.

But yeah, somehow it's going to be someone else's fault, not harpers. So I think she's going to throw anybody and everybody under the bus. And you heard her say it. She can't wait to face people on the stand. That's like a thing she's wanting and waiting for. She wants this confrontation with these people because now no more Mr. nice Lori, right? She's going to come out with the fangs and and fights apparently because now she's not taking anymore, whatever that means. So she wants that confrontation with certain people,

which is why her witness list is pretty interesting. Either she thinks that person is going to make her look great or she's going to fight them in front of everybody. That's what she wants. So it's it's a mess to say the least. It's a big show. It's a circus. And I want everybody to, who has passed away to rest in peace and let's let's move forward because i don't think she's in any way shape before i'm going to win and it doesn't matter if she did but i'll admit it that was a shocking moment for her to for her to say i'm a peacemaker i'm a peacemaker and then she she gave that tell as john calls you know a psychologist calls it to tell where she says oh i can't wait to face the people that lied about me lied you know and you know a k a peacemaker truth yeah and then say she's a peacemaker and then

I can't wait to face those people on the stand. I'm like, I don't think many peacemakers would look forward to that. Right, John? You can't have both ways. I think she's going to bring her unique brand of chaos into the courtroom. And I mean, so that's the bad news, right? She's going to bring the circus with her, as Colby said. The good news is it's a courtroom.

And the judge presides over evidence. And so you can't just resort to all this conjecture. I mean, I think things could get potentially kind of wild because the judge is all about allowing an evidence, right? And so you're going to have this clash. My guess is you're going to have this clash between facts and Lori's fantasy world. And so I think that's where it's going to be fascinating

to see how the judge negotiates that. and just in general, how the jury responds to it, right? I don't know. It'll be really interesting. I mean, in a sad way, because none of this really should be occurring. As Colby points out, like, can't we just put this behind us? Right? Like, I raise this question all the time.

Like, what are we, you know, why is this happening? I mean, she's, the outcome, even if she's acquitted, I guess she can feel some, vindication, but she's still not going anywhere. Yeah. And that's a great point. I mean, what, what do you win? What do you win if you win? There's nothing other than maybe you proving a point.

And at the end of the day, to me, it's more just about, okay, she's doing interviews. She's enjoying this. And something about this is, is fun. And so this must just, to me, I've always looked at it as a last hurrah. and I think I think Brianna asked her that like is this just your last one last swing at the fences

and it's like no I've learned about law and I wanted and it's like honestly there's nothing for you to win on the other side so I think that this is going to give her her high of whatever it is for the next what month or whatever

and then she'll have to figure out what she's going to do after that but I don't know what can you do when somebody's going to put themselves in this position. Right, but you're right. It's a month and then it's game over, right? Like it's, you know, it's because the outcome's not going to change. The outcome is life in prison, win or lose.

Well, don't you think it's interesting, both of you, of how defensive she is of herself, right? We talked about it, but like somehow, some way it's going to be someone else's fault. It's always someone else that's never ever. she did absolutely nothing wrong and that everybody is against her. And she used to be way more heavy on the Satan thing. I haven't heard that in a while. So now that she's got like cameras, now that she's got people really,

she knows now, okay, I was just on camera and now I'm going to, people are going to see this. She's the only thing she says now is she says, God put me here and this and that. She's very light with it. So I think it's really interesting that she's completely lost.

She's lost her conviction in my opinion because if you're a martyr, or you're the example and this and that. It looks like you've backed away from that position. And now you're just here to help those women in your direct vicinity with their lives and their cases, which if anybody is taking legal advice from Lori, please call Rafi here in Phoenix because you're going to need to switch your lawyer quicker than a hurry. Do not do it. Call Rafi over here. You just pointed something out, which is a. This is what drives me crazy about trying to understand who Lori is.

And she on one end, right, you're like, God, this is all Satan's fault, Satan, Satan, Satan. Now that she's in front of this, you know, the jury, because that's all we've seen so far tomorrow or her opening statements. Now that she's in front of a jury, she's, she's left that out. Now it's family tragedy, family tragedy, family dynamics. So she does know her audience. Like, she is aware enough to realize. I can't be too overly religious with the jurors here. So now I've got to just refer to a family tragedy and family dynamics.

And, you know, what's, I mean, right, John? Like, she knows her audience. All of a sudden, it's not Satan's fault. It's the family tragedies fall. Right. Yeah, but right, to a degree. But, yeah, she's not showing that. I think she, I don't know.

I don't necessarily think she's changed her belief. beliefs about the Satan part or the zombies or the light and dark. I think she's just covering them. Yeah. Because she's reading the room. Exactly. She's reading the room. Right.

In the same way she did when she was called in for the interview in Arizona years ago where the police said, no, she seems fine, right? Like the police officer was completely won over by her. Yeah. Charles, Charles wanted a mental health evaluation. They pulled her in. They did a pseudo evaluation. She kept things under wraps during that.

She didn't talk about Ned Schneider or, right, zombies or any of that. She knew better. Yeah, she did. Well, I hope this isn't too much to say, but it's like when you look at historically at people who really lead cults and regime, and movements. They're the most powerful influential ones. They never, they have to be.

They have to be. And so it always hits me like, okay, so you were, even in our phone call, you were all about the religious stuff. And you're telling me how this is all God and this and that. But then I was direct too with a lot of those questions, right? I had so many questions about, okay, so now you're bringing in the Bible. Now we're talking about the 144,000. Like, now that's not a part of it.

And she never said zombies. and now she's backing out. And so I'm like, I'm trying to figure out how in the world you could say you're so convicted. And then also at the same time, once it all hits the fan and there's nobody there, you're not. And now you're just know how to perfectly. This is another thing that's a great point you just made. She reads the room. That's how she was, though, before too.

She knew exactly how to lie to each person, the way they would believe it. So that way no one had the same story. And she knew who could handle what information. It is so calculated. how can you be calculated and out of your mind at the same time? I don't know. I don't know the answer to that. I don't either.

John? That's, it's calculated. John, please. I mean, I'm not going to get near diagnosing here, but there's a book you like,

Lauren, that you sometimes talk about. What's that book? The sociopath next door. Okay. Is that the book? Is that what you're referring to? That is one of the books, yeah.

So I'll just leave it at that. Read it, everyone. Have you read that book, Kobe? Mm-mm. Because I will send you a copy. I will send you a copy. I got to read it now. You can't just tell me and not give me the rest of it.

Yeah. No, you got to read it. It's an eye-opener. Yeah. That was like I met John and that was like his like first gift to me. By the way, here you go. I just got out of it. I just thought that of a not great relationship.

And he's like, you know, here's some light reading. And I have since passed on to many others. Right. If we're going to have a relationship, you need to understand sociopaths, basically. Basically, you can't roam around the world without knowing about sociopaths. It's just not a good, it's not a good predicament. Right. I love it.

Right. Right. If you're going to have a true crime podcast one day, which we never knew. when we first met. Yeah, we didn't know that part. But if we're going to have a true crime podcast one day, babe, you got to read this. Right. One of my prerequisites for getting in a relationship with Warren was not only reading that book,

but having some discussion at every meal about psychopaths or sociopaths or criminals. So here we are. Oh, that's the greatest thing ever. So needless to say, she did read it. So she did read it. Yeah. But I really will. I'll buy you your copy, Colby.

I need it. I'm going to read it. Happy birthday. Happy birthday. It's your birthday. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Yeah. Happy birthday. I didn't know that, but happy birthday, Colby. Today is your birthday? Actually, my birthday is actually on the eighth. So in two days. Okay.

I'm an old man now. Okay. Shelly's flowers. Thank you so much. It says a message for Colby. I can see how her power. of representing herself and creating drama would dig into the triggers that you endured through your childhood. You have a new family that has your back. Let us support and help you. Thank you.

Yeah. Shilly's flowers. Thank you. And I do want to say if anybody has appreciated this live tonight with Colby, please consider going over to his channel if you haven't already and subscribing at Colby J. Ryan. We've shared the link and it's also in the description of this video. And we will also have it in a pinned comment. And John and I plan to jump on with you after this first week. So this is the pre-opening statements. Like, how are we all doing checking in live? Well, on Saturday, we're going to debrief after that first week over on Colby's channel.

So definitely head over to Colby's hit subscribe and notifications because we will be with you on Saturday. That's the plan. right? Saturday. I don't know how we're going to look on Saturday. I don't know if we'll make it all the way through the week. I don't know. Yeah.

It's going to be a long one. And that's assuming that the judge doesn't declare against trial after the first two hours. Please. Just end it for everybody's sake and just move forward. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Anything else?

Anyone? I see that there are, questions here. We will all keep some of these questions and I can bring them next week to your channel, Kobe. Colby. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Let's start with let's end with this. Here's a question from a viewer. Dr. Jay, what advice do you have for Colby in dealing with the coming weeks for his well-being besides reading the sociopath? Next. door. Which I'm going to read. Dr. I don't think he's going to read that before tomorrow. So, but, I mean, I think that, I think

that's really an answer. The answer to that is really a question for Colby in terms of how he processes these types of situations. I mean, it could be traumatic. I think you, you indicated that Colby that there might be a lot of pain that you're going to have to deal with again. So I don't think there's a simple answer to that. You know, I think it just depends on how much you can consume of this Colby and how much pain it causes you. And I mean, whether it's even really worth watching. I don't know. That's really the answer to that question is very personal.

So I don't. Maybe what do you think, Colby? How do you think you're going to cope with some of the trauma of this trial or the retrauma? retromanization that's a great question um i have thought about it what's really interesting is i kind of have chad's trial as an example after that trial i remember i told you guys i was listening to you guys i was watching your channel and this was stuff i'd never heard right i didn't go in the details i didn't watch court every day like i couldn't do it it wasn't going to happen i couldn't be at work i know court is going on and i'm locked away and a whole other place mentally because i don't go

I just can't handle that burden. And so after I unpacked so much of this for so long, there's almost, I don't want to use the word callist, but something of that nature where it's like it doesn't hurt the same. Now, with the comes to Charles, that did get me the last time I watched the documentary. It just, I just, it opened it up like it was yesterday. So I can never really plan. I think just because I have been processing and talking about it on the channel for so long now. And we've we've had this conversation. Like I couldn't have done this even probably a year ago because I just couldn't handle talking about it at all.

So now that it's, I people see that it's happening and I'm just trying to talk about the healing side. I think that as it comes, I'm going to pallet it little bits at a time and hopefully be able to come out stronger. That's the goal. I know that things are going to be hard. I know things are going to be triggering and I don't know everything that's going to come out. But I think I'm more braced and ready than ever. And I think that my part is more ready because I know it's the reality. I've accepted the situation for what it is.

And so now it's not really a surprise. It's just more about how bad is it really. It's kind of like that now. Makes sense. Yeah. Well, everybody here is actually giving advice in chat. So there is a lot of advice for you from people. who care about you.

And a lot of it is just take it a day at a time, turn it off if you need. I think you know that. And it's true. Just take what you can. Just to summarize, oh, I'm sorry, just to summarize that, so small bites that need to be metabolized one at a time,

and after the metabolized, maybe then you'll take another bite. Yeah. Yeah. Right? Because, like, I couldn't go sit in that courtroom all day every day and listen. and then walk home and go home and then come back.

That's a next level of strength and that I don't have, but that's okay. I'm going to deal with it as it comes. And I think that's how you have to take life anyway, just a little bits out of time. And try your best, I guess. It's really the only way to go about a situation like this. Yeah. Well, tell your beautiful, wonderful wife, Kelsey, hello for us. I'm so glad you two have each other.

and your beautiful growing family. We know it's late for you, and you've got three kids. Three kids. Three kids. You are, we so much respect for you and all you're doing. So we will let you get some rest and go back to your family. But thank you for being again here with us tonight,

and we will see you on your channel on Saturday. Yeah. Thank you guys. I appreciate it. Thanks, Colby. Thanks, everyone for being here. with us tonight. See ya. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every

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