Hidden True Crime - Lori Removed from Court, Melani Being Investigated, & Pink Pony Drama | Lori Vallow Daybell Day 2

Episode Date: June 8, 2025

Day 2 of Lori Vallow Daybell’s trial is pure chaos. Lori goes head-to-head with Brandon Boudreaux during cross-examination—Then the prosecutor drops a bomb: Lori’s niece, Melani Pawlowski, is now under investigation. And just when it couldn’t get wilder… Lori gets kicked out of court. Jes Interview Apple:https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/hidden-true-crime/id1521619380?i=1000637485752 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/0dxR0lbmxho2GXxc2xKsAm?si=138509605d0c4010 Brandon Playlist: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnLc7I2gyWtQ2L4_aCtEOlvmFBxegNf56&si=B6BQJgzco69lYoWL Limited Trial Merch: https://www.bonfire.com/store/hidden-true-crime-limited-merch/ About Hidden True Crime: What started as a simple conversation at their dinner table became a captivating podcast. Join the dynamic duo of Dr. John Matthias, a criminal psychologist, and Lauren Matthias, an investigative journalist, as they delve into the psychological facets of unthinkable crimes every week. Their unique perspectives and in-depth analysis offer a fresh take on true crime storytelling. Thank you for your support through sponsorships, subscribing, listening, and becoming a Patreon member at ⁠Patreon.com/HiddenTrueCrime⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hello, hidden gems. Live from New York, it's... It is Saturday night. It's hidden true crime, though. on Saturday night. I am life from New York. And why am I in New York City and why is it Saturday night opposed to Friday night? Because typically I do my recaps in the evenings right after court.

And that is because yesterday I was in Long Island for the Gabby Petito Foundation dinner. And it is the cause that Dr. John and I plan to, Honestly, we hope to be more involved in in the future. We really believe in what the Pettito family is doing in Gabby's memory, and they are working very hard for those that are missing and missing persons, as well as domestic violence. And I'd encourage everyone to learn more about what the Gabby Petito Foundation is doing. So it was a wonderful night.

We overstayed our welcome. Every chair had been put away by the time we left, but it was a wonderful night. And I know that they raised a lot of money and it will be going towards helping to prevent domestic violence, educate, help victims, as well as missing persons. But now that you know I'm in New York, let's get to why I was in Phoenix just a little bit ago. And that is because I am attending every day of court when it comes to the third trial of Lori Valladaybel. it's been an interesting trial so far. Lori is not on her best behavior.

Well, she might be on her attempted best behavior. This is where we are all hoping and wanting justice for Brandon Boudreau. Lori DeBel's once nephew-in-law, he was married at this time to Melanie Boudreau. Now Melanie Pulaski, Lori's niece. So it is day two. It's taken a while to get to day two. But we are on day two, and it was a bizarre day in case. Lori was removed from the courtroom at one moment.

We'll get to that. The judge is like, take her out, take her out. And we learned about another open investigation, an active open investigation that is still going on with this case, despite a 2019 being six years ago. So let's get into it. Day two of Lori Davell's third and supposedly final trial, maybe final trial, kicked off with the kind of chaos we've come to expect from this case.

It was just before 9.30 a.m. in the prosecution sat ready waiting to proceed, but Lori still not with her advisory counsel. neither one of them. Judge Breske clearly irritated, let everyone know what was going on. Lori's advisory council, Robert Abernafee, had emailed that morning saying he'd be late, blaming child care,

and just minutes before court was supposed to begin, Pamela Hicks phoned in from her office with her own excuse. She was still making copies of key photos. The judge was not having it. You got an email on 920 saying she's still at her office, printing off pictures, which is wholly unacceptable.

Ms. Davell, you represent yourself. You do not need your advisory counsel here, but I'm going to split the difference. She's being sent an email that says if she's not here at 950, 950, we're going to start. If there's pictures that need to be printed off, someone, staff can do that. Staff can bring it over later,

but she should have been here at 930. If this were federal court, she'd probably be going into custody. I mean, this is ridiculous. Pretty intense. This was federal court. she'd be going into custody. This is ridiculous.

Well, when Hicks finally showed up in person, she claimed the discovery was dumped on her the night before, but Boreski reminded her in no uncertain terms that she's expected in court on time and ready, period. And then came issue number two, and it's a big one. Prosecutor Trina K. raised concerns about Lori's opening statements. If you caught Thursday's coverage,

and I hope you did, because we all watched it together. You'll remember Trina objecting multiple times to Lori's opening statements. And according to Trina, Lori didn't just make an opening statement. She gave unauthorized testimony, including calling herself, remember this, a loving and peaceful person, one showing no malice. And that, Trina argued, opened a legal door that Lori should have kept shut. because under Rule 404A,

the prosecution cannot bring up past crimes or character flaws unless the defense brings them up first. But now that Lori did, Trina can. Allegedly, possibly soon, including the fact that Lori is already a convicted murderer of her own children. Bryce, four times. I've lost count.

She's a serial killer. And if a serial killer wants to explain that they're a loving person that has no malice, maybe it's time to bring up the fact that they're a serial killer to rebut that character assessment. So let's hear from the judge what he had to say about this. Rule 404A does not allow the defendant to bring in character evidence to prove action and conformity, which is clearly what she was doing.

Assuming she does, then the rules would permit the state to then bring in specific act evidence of this defendant. The defendant is trying to say she is a peaceful person, she has no malice. I believe that will open the door to allow the state to bring in the fact that she is a four-time convicted murderer. Next, the defendant,

in terms of bringing up information about Brandon hiring an API and trying to make it appear that he has some vendetta against her, we had worked very hard to try to say there is an incident in Chandler. Brandon Boudreau was very aware of the fact that this defendant,

and her brother had shot and killed Charles Fallow. And this is why he was very afraid for his life and trying to realize where she was and where Alex was. So if she wants to go into all of that information, then again, I believe she will be opening the door to allow Brandon to then explain why he was in so much fear for his life, why he was hiring a private investigator to locate this defendant and locate Alex Cox.

So I just want to make it very clear that should she go into those areas, I will be asking to then bring in the fact that she has been involved in the murder of Carlsvallow, her own children, and her current husband's wife. All right. And only 4 or 5 will permit that, Your Honor. So I had literally the same thoughts when and during her opening statement, especially when she started talking about I'm not a, I'm a person with content, kindness, peace and love, etc. and I was thinking my head, wow, she's opening a big door right here. Now, it's not witness testimony. The jury has not, has been instructed specifically

that that's not evidence or testimony. But I think the notice that the state is putting out right now is well taken because if you elicit testimony through a witness or you testify, yourself along those lines, there's several doors that would be opened in that instance. Do you understand that? I understand what you're saying, Your Honor. Okay.

The schedule. I also understand that the state also withdrew their 404B, that they had no intention of doing that. That doesn't mean you get to say whatever you want. I didn't. I'm not saying that. Okay. I'm just saying they did give a notice for 404B, and then they did withdraw it. So they didn't have any intention.

I didn't have any intention. The issue is if you bring in your good character as a reason of why this didn't happen, they're going to be allowed to rebut that type of testimony because you've opened the door to it. Yeah, this could really be a game changer. The jury doesn't know Lori's history yet, but now they just might. And then came more testimony from Gilbert Police Detective David Ferrer, who was already on the stand. And on Thursday, Lori representing herself started her cross-examination. She wanted to know what evidence was collected the day Brandon Boudreau was shot at.

And Fara said they recovered bullet projectiles, but no cigarette, as Lori seemed to suggest. In Alex Cox's truck, investigators found earplugs and a practice round, normal for gun range visitors, but Farah couldn't confirm if Alex ever went to ranges. I think that'll come later. And Lori then turned to the Tesla, specifically the bullet. hole. Could it have been found from a rifle or a handgun? Well, yes, it could have been either, according to the witness, but crucially, those bullet fragments were never sent for ballistic testing, which is odd to me. Lorry brought up a neighbor who reportedly heard a bang,

but didn't think it sounded like a gunshot, and Trina quickly objected, hearsay. She then questioned why only a few fragments were found and not the whole bullet. Farr explained that bullets behave differently. Some shatter. Some stay intact. Some go through a lot of different things. But again, he acknowledged that while a test exists to identify bullet type, no one did run it.

No one ran that test. And then came something interesting. While he didn't personally see it, Fair testified that other officers may have recovered video. from a neighborhood that day, that's important. And if this footage exists, it could either back up Brandon's story or cast down. So let's see if it's introduced and on redirect prosecutor treatise circled back to why no shell casings were located at the scene. Let's listen to the detective explain that.

I'm going to ask you about casings and if you found any at the scene. Do you recall that line of questioning? I do remember that. If you were advised that the person firing the rifle was laying or lying and wait inside at the back of a jeep, that only part of the barrel of that rifle came out the rear window, and then the rifle was fired, where would you expect that casing to land? More than likely it would still be inside that vehicle, the Jeep. Okay.

So you would not expect it to fall. forward out of the Jeep and land out on the ground? No. The defendant asked you about if you saw a casing over by the pool. Would you expect absent, I guess, a hole in the floor of the Jeep to find the casing over there if it was still in the Jeep? No. So- Never found the casing next to a pool. But you wouldn't expect to find a casing over there, right?

No. No. There was no evidence of anyone shooting over there. Right. And there would be no reason for a casing to be over there. there. Correct. So in this case, given the information you were given, were you surprised that you didn't find a casing? No. It doesn't mean we don't look for the casing.

We automatically look for the casings. But since it was inside of a vehicle, it's just like a drive-by shooting type of thing. We'll say once we pull the car over the casings, we'll be inside that vehicle, most likely. Then one or two might pop out if they have their gun outside the window, something like that. casing might. But usually we search there was no casing found in this. So we determined it was most likely more likely than not inside that vehicle still. And the casing was in the window cell. Sorry. Yeah, the casing was more likely than not inside that vehicle still. The jeeps. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Just your average drive-by shooting investigation that he

knows well. And that neighborhood video that maybe they had, well, the next witness to take the stand was Lynette Mendoza, a former neighbor of Brandon Boudreau. Back in October 2019, Lynette lived just a few houses away from where the attempted shooting took place. She wasn't just a neighbor. She also had something. Investigators were desperate for a ring doorbell camera. Thank goodness she had this in 2019. Her camera, motion activated and aimed directly toward the intersection near Brandon's home may have captured a critical piece of evidence. And this is something we've never seen before. A new piece of evidence. If you think you've seen everything, this one's new. This is a new witness, new piece of evidence. And on the morning of October 2nd, 2019, a police

officer knocked on Lynette's door asking for any footage her camera may have picked up. up. She complied. Later, emailing investigators the recordings from that day. And now, years later, that same footage is being presented in court and the public is seeing this footage for the very first time. Let's take a look at what her doorbell camera saw. I jumped when I heard that the first time and I just jumped again. So in that video, what we could hear loud and clear was what sounded like a gunshot, just as Brandon Boudreau's black Tesla comes in. to view heading towards his driveway, the sound pierces the quiet morning. Whether the jury believes it or not, it definitely adds weight to Brandon's account. I knew about investing,

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3.3%. Base API Y as of January 30th, 2026 is representative variable and earned on funds swept to program banks. 0.65% new client boost for three months on up to $150,000. Direct deposit $1,000 a month and fund an investing account for a 0.25% increase. Cash account offered by Wealthfront Brokerage LLC member FINRA, SIPC, not a bank. Lori had no questions for Lynette Mendoza, so the court moved on. But next came a rewind of sorts because yesterday, if you remember, or not yesterday, excuse me, Thursday. We're on Saturday now Thursday after prosecutor Trina K finished questioning Brandon, Lori, again, if you recall, said she wasn't ready to cross-examine him.

She claimed her investigator had all her material and was missing in action. M.I. And the court agreed to go out of order and let Lori circle back on Friday. So now, we are watching Lori Valo questioned the man she's accused of conspiring to kill her former nephew-in-law, Brandon Boudreau. It was a big day on Friday. A day that was supposed to be dark in court ended up being a very important day. the cross-examining of Brandon Boudreau, Lori facing Brandon. Lori started soft.

She asked Brandon when they first met, and he said 2008, the year he married her niece, Melanie. She asked if their relationship had always been friendly and Brandon was honest. No, not always, he said. Things went south in 2018. Lori tried to remind the jury that once upon a time, they were family and they were close,

holidays, weddings, births. Trina objected for relevant. Then Lori remarkably was allowed to approach the bench to argue her case. And her last trial sidebars had to be done through a headset to avoid putting a convicted murderer physically near the judge. But after filing a motion claiming she didn't have enough headsets for her team, Judge Boreski relented. So now Lori's at the bench like a real attorney. And yet still claiming the judge never grant her motions. Surprise. Back to Brandon. Lori asked if they ever argued. He said, yes, most recently in June 2019, when he and Melanie were fighting, Lori tried to get him to say she was always loving and supportive, but Brandon would not play along.

He said, quote, I can't say how you felt about me. He testified. Lori then moved to a painful moment, the June 25th fight. Brandon said it started in the afternoon and stretched past midnight. he remembered it clearly because it hurt. It started with Melanie, not wanting to attend his grandfather's funeral, but spiraled into much more. Lori asked if he knew Melanie had childhood trauma around funerals, having lost her mother at nine. And maybe that was why she didn't want to attend his grandfather's funeral.

When Brandon said, didn't say yes or no, just that he didn't know also what Melanie was feeling at the time, just that it was hurtful to him. And then the real storm. Brandon testified that during that fight, Melanie accused Brandon of hacking Lori's computer and trying to get Lori's LDS Temple Recommend revoked. Wild accusations. But they were coming straight from Melanie's mouth this evening.

Brandon said he was trying to save their family, save their marriage, and not argue about Lori. Then Lori tried to sneak in something, which I think she thought was provocative. she asked Brandon if Melanie had ever shown him a video of him dancing at a place called the Pink Pony. Q. Chapel Rowne. No, just kidding.

She wasn't brought up. But a place called Pink Pony where Brandon was allegedly dancing. Trina quickly objected to stain. Now, if you're wondering what Lori was up to with that question, she was clearly trying to smear Brandon's character and maybe put in evidence of some of the things she was talking about, a subtle dig. meant to shame or cast doubt on Brandon. But I really, I don't think it landed.

I think it left people wondering what the big deal was to learn Brandon was dancing. And next, Lori asked if Brandon blamed her for the fight. And he said, no, he was focused on his marriage and not his niece's aunt. Or excuse me, not his wife's aunt. But eventually, after that fight, Melanie said she wanted a divorce. And Brandon filed. It was finalized by mid-October 2019, just weeks after the shooting. They came to mutual agreements on custody of their four children. On the morning of October 2nd, Brandon had the kids drop them off, went to the gym,

and then drove home where someone tried to kill him. Brandon said that after the shooting, he spoke with Detective Pillar and they discussed everything. Melanie, Lori, the divorce, and that Lori had apparently convinced Melanie that Brandon was gay. I think this is where the pink pony is coming in. And at this point, Lori tried again to bring up the pink pony. And that's when things blew up. The jury was sent out of the room. And what followed was an extremely long sidebar.

And once the jury was gone, Judge Voreski gave Lori a stern warning about opening legal doors, once again. She clearly doesn't understand this issue. So here's her stern warning once again. But then this stern warning escalated, a shocking and heated exchange between Lori and Judge Boreski. Let's just watch this together. That sidebar again discussed similar issues of if the defendant brings in evidence or testimony that she was a good person, and no ill intent and those sorts of things and specific acts of her being a good person, it could open the door to other things

that she may not want the door open to. The state, the defendant and advisory council were at the bench when we had that short one minute sidebar, but I don't know if anyone wants to supplement the record on that. Ms. Kaye. Just your honor that again, the state did raise any issue of character evidence.

under 404A and 405 that if the defendant opens the door and tries to advise that she is a good person, a peaceful person, a kind person, a loving person, any of those other types of things that we believe that would allow us under 405 to then bring in specific acts such as the murder of her children, her husband, and her current husband's wife. All right. Which would also be 404B that they withdrew. No, it would be 405. Yeah, they withdrew it.

But if you bring up 404 that you... Then all 404B is in, or do we get a hearing on what 404B can come in? If I open the door, do I get a hearing? We stop trial and I get a hearing. Stop. We'll have a very short hearing, okay? If you're going to introduce how you have great character and good character, we're going to have a short hearing on what evidence that they can bring in to rebut that character, which could include being convicted of poor murders.

So, would you like... Talk to your advisory council during the break. You don't need to yell at me either. I'm... Yeah, you are. And you do not. They just have to me that way. I'm very courteous to you.

No, you have been nothing near courteous to me during the course of these proceedings. Talk with your advisory council about the rest of your cross. We're going to resume in 15 minutes. Yeah. I like feel secondhand stress watching that. I did the first time and I do now when it was happening and still now. The jury wasn't there for that. But Lori did realize, though, that she wasn't going to be able to be able to.

slip her little pink pony dig into the record during that moment. And the tone did shift quickly. You could practically fill Judge Boreski's patience wearing thin as Lori began talking over him, refusing to stop. Like it was, it was super stressful to watch. But at one point, um, raising her voice at the judge, that was, that was intense. It was also disrespectful. It was bizarre and honestly, you know what I thought? I thought it actually gave off serious Darrell Brooks vibes. You remember him representing himself in court, refusing to follow the rules, turning his trial into a spectacle. Yeah, that energy. And after a much needed break, and what we can only assume was a courtroom reset, Judge Voreski came back in with a warning.

He looked directly at Lori and made it clear. If she continues interrupting, re-asking, sustained questions or talking over the court, he will revoke her pro per status, meaning she will not have the right to represent herself. Lori loses the right, full stop. Lori finally apologized and said she understood. So court resumed. And the cross-examination of Brandon Boudreau continued. Lori asked if there were any other serious issues during his marriage to Melanie, and Brandon admitted over the course of 10 years, sure, there were disagreements. But then things got weird again, as they always do when Lori represents herself. Lori brought up Brandon's interview with Detective Pillars, specifically about Melanie

believing that God had told her that Brandon was gay. Brandon clarified that he didn't think that was divine revelation. He believed it was Lori who planted the idea in Melanie's head about him being gay. He never heard Lori say it. Melanie never explicitly said that it was Lori either. But as Brandon said, and most of us could infer, it didn't take a profit to figure out who was behind it. In other words, he didn't need revelation to figure it out. And when Pillar asked Melanie what evidence she had for Brandon being gay, Brandon said it was all silly and vague, nothing real. No evidence. Just poison. Passed off as revelation. Then Lori shifted to the Jeep Wrangler. Brandon testified that he hadn't recognized the Jeep

before the shooting. He described it to Detective Pillar as a puk green color. Lori asked if he'd ever seen that Jeep at her house prior to the attack and Brandon said he didn't recall. He didn't remember. Lori brought up another strange detail. Why during the 911 call Brandon mentioned possibly seeing a paintball gun that maybe he remembers thinking it was a paintball gun. Brandon explained in the moment he didn't know what was happening. He'd maybe seen a little boy. No gunshot was visible. No bullet shattering through the glass.

He was confused. Shock. He was thinking out loud quickly. He called 911 fast. But once he got out of the car and saw the bullet hole, he knew this was real. And again, remember, Tammy Daybell also first initially called 911, also thinking that someone was pointing a paintball gun at them. I guess when something feels too surreal, we jump to other ideas. And then reality sets in.

Brandon knew this was real. Lori then pressed about the shattered window. Brandon said when he pulled into his driveway, the Tesla's window gave out completely glass inside the car, outside the car all over him. He was carefully climbing out, didn't get cut. The first officer on scene, Officer Rob asked what happened. Lori asked if this officer put her pen, Officer Rob was a female, put her pen in the bullet hole. Yes, that's a real question, she asked. But Brandon didn't remember that detail.

Then Lori asked what happened next, and that's when things got emotional. Brandon describing the aftermath, the shock, the trauma, and the moment he called his dad, he choked up. Let's listen to that moment in Brandon's own words because I think it's important to hear from him. I realized that I was really close to being shot. I think a little bit of shot kicked in. I remember feeling a little overwhelmed. And I remember they were very considerate. I think my hands even started shaking.

I remember. And then they told me, do I have someone that can be with me? And then I, my first thought was my dad, you know, it's kind of my strength. And then after that I thought of my friends. So I have two really good friends. And that's what I remember is they said I could call them. And so they just came and tried to make things lighthearted, make things easier. So was that Officer Rob that gave you the permission to call your friends?

I can't tell you for certain. So was that after she finished questioning you on the events of the day? I can't tell you for certain on that either. I don't know. Was it before another officer arrived? Like I said, I can't tell you for certain. And how long did it take for your friends to show up? I don't know. I probably was in a little bit of shock. I don't remember how long any of those things were. Okay. And you had two different friends that showed up. Did they come together?

I think they came separate. And at that point, when they arrived, was the crime scene tape already up? I don't remember. And so they would have had to park outside of the crime scene tape, or you don't know? I'm sure they did. I don't know, though. I can't testify to that. And so they stayed with you during that whole day? Yeah, they were awesome. They dropped everything, and they just spent time with me. This episode, sponsored by Sheeks.

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remember and always remember that this isn't just about courtroom theatrics and Lori Daybell being Lori Daybell. It's a man who survived a murder attempt, who walked back into his house, shaken and had to call his dad to say, someone just tried to kill me. Well, before court broke for lunch, Lori continued to press Brandon with more details, if not scattered questions. She asked whether any officers entered his house or garage the day of the shooting. Brandon said he couldn't remember for sure, but it's likely they did. And then Lori pivoted. Did anyone interview Brandon's two friends, Mark Bell, and Chris Pierce?

And Brandon said he didn't know, but I do want you guys to know that whether or not police interviewed those two friends, while that remains unknown, I did interview one of their wives. And you can find that interview in the description of this episode. It is worth a listen. And finally, Lori zeroed in on Detective Pillar, the lead investigator on the case. Lori asked how many times Brandon had communicated with him. And Brandon answered honestly. He said, quote, I'm not sure, but it's been a lot.

Over the past four years, we have talked many times. quote. And that's when things got interesting because just before the lunch break, outside the presence of the jury, a conversation unfolded that may have huge implications for this case. Huge. Lorry attempted to admit a key piece of evidence, an email between Brandon and Detective Pillar, and the contents, a discussion about a possible money motive, financial gain, involved who? Melanie Boudreau. Yes, you heard that right. A possible financial motive behind the shooting. Something many people have speculated about for years, for years. We waited years for this. And so now we get to hear exactly what was said, because if this email makes it in front of the jury,

it could shift the way they view Melanie's role and maybe Lori's too. So let's listen in and then talk about it. I would like to ask him about it. What's relevant about it? I can't hear her. Please, speak to the mic. It's relevant to his discussion with Detective Pillar from the October 2nd date until this date on February 12th. What is relevant about it that is an issue for this jury to decide?

That's what relevance means. It's something that this jury either makes something more or less probable. for some fact that they need to decide. It's relevant in the way that this email communicates that the information that was being given to the detectives was directly from Brandon Boudreau. I know, but what in the content of that email is relevant for this case?

The fact that the last line. Did I miss something? What's the last one? At the bottom? I don't have to see it as well. At the bottom? That's, okay, hold on, make sure everyone can hear you in the court reporter. I would have to ask to see that as well.

I don't know what you'd tell you. So the last line was Detective Pilar writes, is it Pillar or Pillar or Pillar? Pillar, like a pillar and a building. Pillar. Detective Pillar writes, this information is requested so we can see if Melanie has any financial gain from your death basically, correct?

Correct. Okay, so that creates motive for Melanie. It seems like I guess it's fair area for him to talk about in general, but it's also a fair area for you to talk to the detective about what areas they investigated. But let me hear the state's response. But as far as that particular email comes in, I mean, I suppose you could ask some questions about it, but let me hear from the state. Judge, obviously that's one, a conglomeration of emails. so I don't know that that fully covers everything too. I guess the defendant has never raised a third-party defense.

I'm not sure if she's trying to say that this was all Melanie Boudreau, but that is actually an open investigation that is still ongoing. The state has, obviously, in trial, referred to her as an active member of this conspiracy. So I'm not sure if she's trying to admit that or just question him if he was providing information to the police. But the last thing I will, again, just in terms of opening the door, is she's made a big deal about the number of calls and text messages.

And as I've indicated, there is still an open investigation against Melanie Boudreau. And so many of those, many of that information might relate to that case, or it might also relate to the Tammy Daybell case because there was information about that, as well as the Charles Vow case. to infer that all those conversations related solely to this defendant, this incident, October 2nd, is probably a little disingenuous. Were you intending to enter that as an exhibit or just ask, were you asked to provide information that Melanie might have a motive?

I would like to admit it. And I would like to question him on it as well, yes. What is the bait page on that? It's Bates 5465. I don't know that there's anything in it that's particularly misleading or anything like that to the jury. I don't know how relevant it is, but I think to the extent that there may have been some questions about Melanie's participation and whether or not she had a motive are relevant. What's the state's response, I guess? I know she didn't notice third party defense.

I guess I'm asking now, is she doing that? Obviously, I have a right to know before the trial ends if that's an act of defense she's asking for. I'm not, Your Honor. I'm trying to say the connection that I've been accused of with Melanie connects me to Melanie. So that's why I'm trying to establish how am I connected to this.

I didn't have a financial gain here. This is the financial gain through Melanie. This is conversations between the detective and Brandon that I want to question him on. I'm not trying to blame Melanie. That's my point. I have not alleged a financial gain for the defendant. So I said I have not alleged a financial gain.

I've not alleged much of a motive because we are trying to keep out much of that. So I guess, again, if we're going to start going into motives, then we have prior incidents of the defendant having financial gain in the previous trial that we did here. So if we want to go into the whole overarching financial scheme and cult activities, then we can do that. But again, the state had decided not to bring in any of that. If we're going to do that, then obviously we'll change who all of our witnesses are.

All right. Let me, rather than just make a knee-jerk ruling, I'll think about it. We'll take this up at about 110. Dude. Wow. So a lot to unpack in that sidebar,

and a lot was unpacked in that sidebar. But the biggest bombshell, the prosecution finally confirmed what many of us have been wondering for years. There is an open investigation, an open, active investigation into Melanie Boudro Polowski's role in Brandon's attempted murder. That question, why hasn't Melanie been charged as haunted this case? And now we know charges may still be coming.

We'll see. Also worth noting, even though Lori insisted she's not using Melanie as a third-party defense, meaning she's not going to allegedly say, I didn't do it. She did it. It's actually starting to feel like that's exactly what she's doing, whether she realizes it or not. I'm going to say I think she realizes it and she's pretending she doesn't. Because from what I'm seeing, she is throwing her own niece under the bus

and saying that she's the one with the motive to do this to Brandon. She's the one with the financial gain. So I don't believe Lori when she says that's not what she's doing because Lori, the woman who refused to blame Chad Daybell in her first two trials now seems to have no problem blaming Melanie and her third one. I don't think she would do this to Chad, but she's certainly doing it to Melanie. After lunch, Judge Boreski came back with his decision. He is allowing Lori to ask, a very specific limited question about Melanie's possible financial motive. And here is how Judge Breskes phrased it, word for word. Quote, in 2020, did Detective Pillar ask you to provide any documentation which might support

whether Melanie had a financial motive for your murder or death, end quote. So in other words, Lori asks this question to Brandon. And if Brandon answers yes, and spoiler alert, he does, Then the state has permission to follow up with clarifying questions like whether Melanie would have benefited from a life insurance policy. He also reminded the court that Brandon and Pillars' conversations may have spanned multiple investigations, not just this one. So when court resumed, Lori asked Brandon the approved question and he answered yes. As I told you he would. And Detective Pillar did ask for documentation and Brandon.

that he provided his life insurance policy, some bank records, screenshots of text messages, and other personal documents to detect the pillar. Then, Lori pivoted to the Tesla. Ryan Reynolds here for MintMobil. I don't know if you knew this,

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The client was paid $1,000 for their testimonial, creating a content. Plictive interest outcomes vary. 3.3% base API as of January 30th, 2026 is representative variable and earned on funds swept to program banks. 0.65% new client boost for three months on up to $150,000. Direct deposit $1,000 a month and fund an investing account for a 0.25% increase. Cash account offered by Wealthfront brokerage LLC, member FINRA SIPC, not a bank. She asked if Brandon's car had cameras. He explained that Tesla's are outfitted with multiple cameras, front, back sides, but his 2019 model did not save video footage at the time.

Lori tried to press him. If he saw the Jeep drive by and he had seen Alex Cox many times before, shouldn't he have been able to recognize him? Well, Brandon stuck to his story, the story that he always told. He said he didn't see anyone inside the Jeep. He didn't see Alex. He didn't see anyone. So how could he recognize someone you don't see?

Then Lori asked if he ever took photos of the damaged Tesla after the shooting, the window, the bullet hole. Brandon said he might have, but he did not remember. The car was impounded by police for a few weeks. When he got the car back, he had it repaired and later sold it. And next came the color of the Jeep, a detail that's been debated since day one. Lori asked, when did Brandon decide the Jeep was actually gray and not puk green? I love that puke green.

He explained that before the shooting, Charles Valo had given him VIN numbers to help shop for insurance. Yes, Brandon had access to the Jeep's VIN. but Brandon says he never used it to determine the color just to get quotes like Charles Valo had asked him to. He told police the Jeep might be green, gray, olive. He wasn't sure. But after the fact, he gave the VIN to Detective Pillars since Charles had previously shared that with him.

Actually, let's take a moment to listen to this in court. There we go. Yes. So after October 2nd, did you ever? look up the VIN number that you had access to of the Jeep Wrangler that was in my household. I don't think I did. I don't have a recollection of it. So did you just provide the VIN number to Detective Pillar? Yes.

And when did you provide the VIN number of my vehicle to Detective Pillar? I think on October 2nd, I'm not certain, but I think that's when I gave to him. So on this day, on October 2nd, you provided that VIN number? to the detective? I think at some point, if I recall correctly, I remembered that I had it, so I got it and sent it to him just to make sure that he had it. So at that point, even though you thought it was a puke green or olive Jeep, he would have access to the information that it was actually a great Jeep that was in my family household. Is that correct? I can't testify what he had access to. But you provided him with that information that very day?

to the best of my recollection, yes. So while Lori's trying to corner Brandon on color discrepancies, Brandon's account, in my opinion, seems to hold. He gave what he could remember and passed on what he knew. And I agree with those in comment saying gray and green, something could look like green or gray in different lights. All of green has gray in it. My brothers growing up were colorblind.

And I remember they would, pinch me on St. Patrick's Day because they thought I wasn't wearing green and they said I was wearing gray and I said it's green. Those colors can look similar, especially if it's olive. Meanwhile, Lori's attempt to make the Jeep ID murky only reminds the jury of one thing. The shooter came in a car registered to Charles Vallow, who was already dead. Back on cross, Lori pivoted once again, this time, to Alex Cox and his familiarity with guns. She asked Brandon if he knew that Alex likely liked going to the gun range, and Brandon said no, and added that he doesn't recall any family member ever inviting Brandon to a shooting range,

let alone going to shooting ranges. Then Lori asked the obvious, did Brandon own a gun himself? And he said yes, but he made it clear, not in October of 2019. Melanie, his wife, did own a firearm, but it was registered in her name, and at that point, they were separated. Brandon had no access to it. From there, Brandon recounted that Detective Pillar took his phone the day of the shooting to extract its data, Cellbrite. Cellbride extraction. He got it back either that same night or the next morning. And he also confirmed that he and Melanie exchanged text that day talking about child care and plans to drop off their youngest at the park. It's what parents do, especially even when they're separated, or especially, I should say, when they're separated. And after that, Brandon headed to the gym just five to ten minutes away.

So nothing new here. Just reinforcement of a timeline we've already had. We've heard again and again. But what did stand out during this portion is Lori's disorganization. She shuffled through papers searching for the next question. Her line of questioning felt scattered, even irrelevant. at times. And it all culminated in one question that sparked a quick objection. Lori asked Brandon if he only gave pillar information about Melanie because he wanted her

charged with attempted murder. Objection sustained. And just like that, Lori was done. No further questions. Then, though, came redirect. And Trina Kaye brought. us back to June 25th. She asked Brandon why that date has stayed with him all of these years. Why June 25, 2019? And Brandon's voice cracked, as he explained. He had just lost his grandfather. And that same day, he lost something else, his family. That argument with Melanie, the accusations she made that influence Lori had over her was the beginning of the end. And Brandon says, that's why he reached out to Lori and Charles, day to ask them to clear up the lies. Melanie was repeating. And then Trina had him clarify his

Jeep description, puke, greenish, gray wrangler, no spare tire, Texas plates, and that it all came directly from Brandon's memory. He told the 911 operator he wondered in the moment if it was a paintball gun. But once he saw the hole in his Tesla, he knew the truth. And Trina closed with this. even if Melanie had something to gain from his death, Brandon testified. He said, quote, I have no doubt Lori and Alex were involved, end quote. And with that, Brandon stepped down. The next witness, Detective Nathan Duncan from the Chandler Police Department. He was actually on the witness list previously.

He was a responding officer to another key scene, the July 11th, 2019 killing of Charles Vallow, Lori's fourth husband. During that investigation, Duncan entered the garage of Lori's home and what did he find a gray chief wrangler with Texas license plates just sitting there.

Let's take a look at those photos now because honestly, you can absolutely see how someone could initially mistake this paint color for a murky green, in my opinion, especially in certain lighting. At those times,

those photos were taken, Detective Duncan noted something key. The tint on the Jeep's windows was light enough to make out shapes and seats inside, a critical detail when it comes to the shooter's visibility or lack thereof. So that was from the July 11th incident. You could see through. It wasn't tinted yet. Also at Lori's house that day, Alex's truck with a personalized plate.

And the personalized plate was C.P. Quint. as Duncan dug deeper into the Chandler shooting, the one that ended in Charles Valo's death, he obtained access to Lori's iCloud account. And what he found there filled in more pieces. There were text messages between Lori and Alex, where Lori gave him her new email address, and there were also texts from Brandon and Lori

the night of that emotional fight with Melanie, begging her in Charles to help clear things up. And he was pleading with Lori to dispel the lies about the hacking, about the LDS Temple recommend. But Lori, she left those messages on Reed and never responded. In other words, she read them and decided not to respond. And Duncan also tracked Lori and Alex's move to Rexburg, Idaho, and later gained access to a second ICloud account tied to a new email address.

And this one had receipts and confirmations for a storage unit in Rexburg. And then came cross-examination, where Lori tried to challenge the chain of custody, for her iCloud data. She asked Duncan how he got it from Apple and whether he could be sure that he received all of the data. And he explained that Apple sends data via email. And the computer crimes units uses specialized software, again called Cellbright, to extract and interpret the data.

No, Duncan said. He can't personally verify every bite, but he trusts the digital team. He has no reason to believe anything would be omitted. And on redirect, Trina made it clear the digital forensics team doesn't even know the details of the case. They don't pick and choose data. They just extract everything. And then came the next witness, Tom Olsack, a retired Arizona State Trooper who now works with the U.S. Secret Service in Phoenix as a network intrusion forensic analyst.

Back in 2019, he was in the digital forensics unit and was asked by Gilbert, police to extract data from a 2018 Jeep Wrangler's infotainment system. He explained that newer cars have what's called an infotainment system, the central console that runs everything from maps to music to Bluetooth connections. And with the right software, you can extract call logs, GPS data, and more. But there was a problem. When Olsack traveled to Rexberg with Detective Pillar to inspect Lori's Jeep, he realized the vehicle had an older infotainment system, one not compatible with their soft.

even with the help in the manufacturer support line, they were not able to pull any used data from Lori's system. He tried again with Alex's board, F-150, and while he managed to retrieve some data there, the memory chip was too small to go back far enough. So no October 2019 data was recovered. That was difficult to hear. Lori had no questions for Olzac.

And that brought us to the final witness of the day, The name we have heard over and over again, and now we get to hear from him, Detective Ryan Pillar. In 2019, Pillar was part of the Violent Crimes Unit at the Gilbert Police Department, and now he's actually currently working as a school resource officer. But back then, he was the lead investigator on this case. He arrived on the scene around 10.30 a.m., about an hour after the shooting. The road was taped off. Cones marked evidence. and the Tesla's driver's side door was open.

Pillar noticed shattered glass in the car, in the driveway, and in the street. He testified that the damage was consistent with a bullet, scraping through metal at a high speed. No crime scene texts were available that day, so Pillar and his fellow detectives processed the scene themselves, collecting fragments, photographing the damage, and marking glass placements.

Brandon sat in Pillar's car and gave a recorded interview where he named Lori Vallow and Alex Cox as the two people he believed might want him dead. He also described the shooter's vehicle. A gray Jeep wringler, no spare tire, Texas plates, the same Jeep registered to Lori. Pillar noted that because of how the shot was fired from a rifle, likely inside the Jeep, with the shooter hidden and only the barrel poking out, he didn't expect to find shell casings at that scene. those would have likely ejected

inside the Jeep itself. The team searched for more bullet fragments, but only four tiny pieces were found in or on the Tesla. Still, they canvass the neighborhood asking residents for surveillance video, and that's how they eventually got the ring footage from the neighbor down the street,

from Lynette. Brandon agreed to let police extract data from his phone. His Tesla was brought in for further analysis, but yielded no additional. evidence. It was eventually returned to him since it was his only vehicle. Trina then circled back to Charles Vallow's murder and Chandler. That's how Pillar learned that Lori owned a 2018

Jeep, that incident on July 11th. Chandler PD had photographed the Jeep in her garage just three months before Brandon was shot. On October 14th, Brandon told Pillar that Melanie was moving to Idaho, where Lori and Alex had already relocated. That's not suss. You know, just everyone moved to Idaho together. No cults being formed there. But just two days later, sorry, forgive that. I'll just get into what was said on the stand.

Just two days later, on October 16th, a license plate reader picked up Lori's Jeep traveling through Holbrook, Arizona, captured in the image, a Jeep wrangler with no spare tire, exactly as Brandon had described. And by October 31st, Halloween, Pillar and Idaho law enforcement worked together to seize that very Jeep. On November 4th, it was located and impounded. Pillar then traveled to Idaho to process it for gunshot residue, DNA fingerprints, and any other physical evidence. Let's hear him describe exactly how G.S.R. or gunshot residue is collected. And this step really is crucial because it's

If residue is found, it doesn't just confirm a shot was fired. It may reveal who was near that weapon when it happened. Can you describe for us what you use to collect GSR? Both GSR and any physical evidence you wear gloves. You will be changing. Usually they have one primary pair of gloves on and then you will have a secondary pair of gloves you put on. That secondary pair of gloves is removed every time you go to process another location or collect another evidence item.

In other words, you're using a lot of protective gloves while processing a scene. With GSR in particular, you're gonna have a controlled vial and a sample vial. The controlled vial is not opened. It is next to the sample vial. That is just to give the lab a controlled example of the same type of material that has not been utilized.

The sample vial is sealed. Once it is open, it's cylindrical. It's about the size of a shotgun shell is the best way I can describe it. Once it is unsealed, it has a circular adhesive. That adhesive is then pressed against the area in which you are collecting where you believe gunshot residue might exist. Once that's collected, you reseal it with that adhesive into the tube and then it is sealed with an integrity seal to prevent any tampering for any type of lab analysis. Well, Detective Pillar explained that the process for collecting DNA from a vehicle is very similar to collecting GSR or gunshot residue. They also use graphite fingerprint powder and specialized adhesive tape to lift any viable prints from services like door handles, consoles, and windows.

It's meticulous work, slow, careful, and often critical. But before the courtroom could go any further, Judge Boreski announced that the court would be breaking for the weekend. the cross-examination and continued questioning of lead detective, Brian Pillar, will pick back up on Monday morning. And I will be there. And with so many unanswered questions still hanging in the air from how we know who exactly fired the gun. I mean, we know, but how do we really know? How does the jury know?

To whether Lori left any trace evidence in that Jeep, we know next week could bring the most pivotal moments of this trial. yet in court on Friday I also want to point out was Nancy Johancock, K. Woodcock, as well as Brandon and his wife, as well as other friends and family. And I do know that some additional family should be coming next week. I'll keep you posted on that. And again, I will be there. There were some interesting moments with the jury. We had people in the courtroom sharing what the jury was doing when the jury was there. Again, reminder, they weren't there when some of those really heated moments happened. And of course, when we learned that Lori might throw her own

niece under the bus. They weren't there for those times. But when they were, there were a couple moments where two jurors allegedly looked at each other and sort of smiled. Like, I can't believe this is happening. Overall, their thoughts are that she's not looking good in front of the jury. There were also a lot of note taking during Detective Duncan's testimony and overall, but specifically during that testimony according to our sources in the courtroom. All right, everyone. Thank you so much. We'll have our live stream for Monday put up a little bit later.

Share this with everyone that might have missed us Friday night. And like I said, I'll be back in court on Monday. Until then, we're going to go find a place to eat in Manhattan. So we'll see you guys. Bye bye. Before I switched to Wealthfront, my APY was probably 0.1. Like, it was a joke. I was literally getting pennies.

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