Hidden True Crime - LORI VALLOW & CHAD DAYBELL PROSECUTOR ROB WOOD: His First Live Interview

Episode Date: August 5, 2024

Lori Vallow & Chad Daybell Prosecutor Rob Wood join Lauren & John for an in-depth conversation after the conclusion of both trials. Find out the easiest way to get to sleep, and stay asleep when you click https://shopbeam.com/hiddentruecrime and use code TRUECRIME to get up to 35% at checkout. Lauren Matthias was a television reporter for a decade and has followed the Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell case since 2019. She and her husband, Dr. John Matthias, a criminal psychologist, started Hidden True Crime in 2020 with their Season, 'Beyond the Veil,' a psychological deep dive into the doomsday murders and prophet. What started as a simple conversation at their dinner table became a captivating podcast. Join the dynamic duo of Dr. John Matthias, a forensic psychologist, and Lauren Matthias, an investigative journalist, as they delve into the psychological facets of unthinkable crimes every week. Their unique perspectives and in-depth analysis offer a fresh take on true crime storytelling. Thank you for your support through sponsorships, subscribing, listening, and becoming a Patreon member at Patreon.com/HiddenTrueCrime Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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call me Rob. So we have a prosecutor Rob Wood. And you know what? Just so you know, in this chat, we have this live chat, Rob, we have, it looks like Colby. Ryan is. here and we have Megan Connor, some family of people, and I believe that some of the Tammy's family will also be joining us. So, yes, we are so honored to finally be talking to prosecutor Rob Wood as after four, how long has it been, four and a half, five years now? It was five years, November 4th for me. Okay. Wow. And I believe, as you've said, before not a day goes by that you in those years that you haven't thought about this case,

I'm sure. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You doing okay? Have you aged? Have you? You know, so many people about two years ago started saying, you look like you've aged 10 years. And when I do look at pictures of me prior to November of 2019 and then now, yeah, I feel like I've aged a lot. Having said that, I feel like, I don't know, I feel a lot better now. Yeah, good. Kay Woodcock is also here. Oh, good. Yeah.

We're all grateful and honored you're here. I won't tell you anyone else that's here so that you can just relax. I will be honest, you looked like you were working very hard during that trial. You know, I was attending that trial every day. And you did look, I wouldn't say you looked older. You just looked tired and that it was heavy. Yeah, any trial is a lot of work. Even prepping for a three-day trial is a lot of work.

And we actually in our office had prepped for another one-week murder trial for earlier this year. And then it settled kind of at the last minute. So we've had a lot of murder trial prep this year and last year. And yeah, trials a slog and a trial that long is just. That's really, really long. It's a lot of work. And everyone put in so much work for it. Yeah.

Yeah. I did look tired. I was tired. You were tired, right. Legitimately so. I was really tired. Yes. It's so good.

We're so grateful to finally have you on our show. And I know that, you know, you and I were unable to even talk at the trial because there was a gag order. And I just sort of always knew and hoped that we would be able to have. this conversation and I think it's going to be a really interesting conversation tonight because you know and I hope you don't mind if I do this Rob but I would love to start honestly with how you learned early on about head into crime could you take us back to yeah what you've shared with us is that okay yeah so you know the case started out early or November 2019 really kicked off that week of Thanksgiving 2019 you know at the

beginning, you're obviously not operating with all the facts. You don't know everything that's going on. You don't know the backstory. You don't have all the digital evidence. And just like the basic story, learning that Charles had been murdered in Arizona, that Lori's children were missing. My very initial thought, and again, this is without the benefit of looking everything. We're kind of like, man, does this Chad Daybell guy know what he's in for? Is he in danger? And as the facts started rolling in, it became a more and more apparent that, you know, this was a joint, joint effort, and he's just as much involved. And around that time, I think, I believe it was Ray Hermesio. I was talking about that with him, like, you know, I think this Chad guy is just as much involved. And he played me. He's like, well, there's this psychologist who has a podcast, and he talked about it. I can't remember if he played it for me or if he just told me. But that was where

something that you guys had talked about after reading his autobiography which I read his autobiography too that might be fun to talk about, I don't know. I don't know if fun's the right word. Yeah, funds probably not the right word. But anyway, so that's how I learned about hidden true crime.

I'm not a true crime follower in general. Obviously my job involves crime so I deal with it all day. So I usually don't follow true crime outside of work. Every once in a while there will be a case that, you know, across the country that'll catch your attention. I think in Idaho, you know, we have the Colberger case. It's still ongoing. I think that's caught a lot of people's attention. But other than that, I really didn't consume

any true crime material throughout the case. And not really much sense either. I haven't, you know, I've kind of taken, I guess, you could say, a little bit of a break. Anyway, yeah, that's how I heard about you get. Yeah, no, thank you for sharing that. So in other words, this is very, very early on, the information is coming at you guys so quickly, you know, but faster than probably you can keep up with it as you guys are investigating. And you're thinking, I think at one point, I mean, kind of like maybe Chad Daibald, the next victim almost, would you say a little bit too? Yeah, I actually thought that. Like, does he know what he's in for? And again, that was at the very beginning without benefit of all the evidence coming in and all the investigation, just the basic story. you know, the basic facts that we heard up front.

Yeah. And then here John comes in. And I remember, you know, our first episode, which is I'm sure probably what you heard was John. I was doing what you're doing. I was like, talk to me about Lori, like help me process this, you know. And I was following from the very beginning, you know, I was a TV reporter. I had just quit. And then the pandemic came and this case caught my eye the day that the AP wire came down. John and I, you know, is 2020, and I'm asking him, tell me about Lori, what's up with

Lori? And he said, before we talk about Lori, we need to talk about Chad. That was actually our first episode. And he had read his autobiography. So, yeah, I'm sure that's what was pulled up. So, and I think since then you've probably not consumed any more hidden true crime or any other podcasts. Is that right? Because you've got to stay focused. Right. And, you know, it's interesting. We were getting so much information from law enforcement. I don't know that we ever even would have, even if we would have wanted to, would have really had time to be listening to other outside sources. And you also want to keep things as objective as possible. Not that other people aren't looking at things objectively, but just, you know, you try and stay in your lane. And so we,

so yeah, I don't really, like I said, I don't follow true crime a whole lot. So, Right. It's part of your job description. And that's that. Yeah. And when it is part of your job description, you don't even have time to follow it else where you have to focus on dealing with. And hearing that story, I'm just grateful that we helped a little bit and we helped at least reorient the discussion towards Chad and away from Lori. And actually early on, it's interesting, Rob, because in our work, in our podcast, we got a lot of pushback. on that issue. I came in and right away and I said, I think this is, uh, looks like a cult and Chad's the one running it. And I was saying this right away. And, and people were disagreeing with me. They were saying, no, Lori's a black widow. Lori is, is doing all of this. And, and that's been a narrative that we've really, we've discussed for the last four and a half years. And so it's interesting to me that that was something that you guys were talking about at the very beginning because we were,

we were actually a little bit controversial and kind of putting the spotlight on Chad. So I'm grateful that if we helped a little bit for you guys to early on to kind of see how Chad might be such an important influence on Lori and on the case, if that helped a little, then I'm very grateful. So thank you for sharing that story. Yeah. Thank you. Did you read it? You mentioned that you read his autobiography. I'd love to talk about that. Did you also read any of his other books at all? Yeah, I did. I read them. Yeah, well, let's start with the autobiography. Was there anything that stood out in his autobiography for you?

There actually was. What stood out to me, and it's been now two and a half years since I read it, and I'll probably never read it again. but there was a constant making of excuses for why he didn't achieve the things he wanted to achieve, whether that was working at the missionary training center in Provo, Utah. He talks about that and how, like, an interview fell through, but it wasn't his fault. I think even, if I remember correctly, even talking about high school sports, not quite making it there, and it wasn't his fault. There was always kind of an excuse to be made, and I thought that was. was really interesting, a lack of personal responsibility. And I think you really see that play out

later in his life and with the case that good things around him happen because of him bad things. There are things that he doesn't want to have happen. Or I'm sorry, things that didn't happen that he wanted to. That's never his fault. To me, that was kind of the biggest thing that actually stuck out. And then a huge thing for us where when read in conjunction with his other books is at the end of it where he talks about how, yeah, I sell these books under the guise of, you know, they're just books, but they're really actually real revelation from me. That was really interesting to us. We actually kind of used that as the initial preliminary hearing we did back when it was the conspiracy to hide the evidence and destroy evidence case. I thought

that was really on multiple levels, both on a, the criminal, level from a religious standpoint, I thought that was really fascinating, that he was then claiming that these revelations he'd received were real. And I felt like basically saying they applied to other people. That was really fascinating to me. We're jumping into the deep end here right away, Rob, but why not? Why not? Sorry. No, no, that, no, it's good. We like jumping in the deep end. So, but I mean, you're raising the question of belief. I think one of the questions we get all the time, and we've been having people ask this for five years, is does Chad Daybell really believe this stuff? Right.

And I think you're kind of, you're moving us in that direction with him saying that his books are revelation, but fiction. Like, which is it? You know, people ask that all the time. And what do you, you've looked at a lot more evidence than we have, and you've been around these people more than us. I mean, do you have an opinion on whether you think Chad Debo actually believes that the people that were murdered were zombies, the victims were zombies? Does he believe that his writing is revelation? I mean, what's your take on that? I have a lot of questions, I guess, is what.

Okay. You know, I'll probably use. Safe space for you to ask questions, too, by the way. Let's just talk, you know? A word that I use a lot in this case is there's a lot of rabbit holes. holes. There's a lot of things that I don't know that we'll ever know exactly what did he believe. I don't know. Do I think he believed some of it? Yes, I absolutely believe he believed some of it. Do I think he believed everything he was saying at the end? I don't think so. I think there was a lot

of manipulation and saying things to get what he wanted. And I actually think you also see that from Lori as well. She did that as well. So yeah, and I guess I could go deeper on that. You did see through the trials that there was a point, unfortunately, in his trial where it came out, he was talking on a email thread with Tammy and his

son who was on a mission about 12 year old boys in his ward that he was calling dark. Yes. And you know, so I, yeah, and you see enough of it that I do think he believed in some of that. The whole zombie thing, I don't know. I think a lot of it

became a way to get rid of people he didn't want around. Yeah. So you would see that as a rationalization and not necessarily as a literal. Right. Yeah. I think a lot of what they talked about was rationalization. And looking at it from this case is not about religion, but it's impossible to talk about without talking about religion, right? And I really do not believe this case was ever really about the religion. But the religious framework, which he comes from, which I'm familiar with, because I come from that same church, is so much of what he said is just so absolutely opposite of, honestly, core teachings of most of Christianity. And so I have a hard time stomacking that he really believed a lot of those things at the end. I know what you mean.

I mean, one point, for example, and John can share what he thinks, you know, this is actually where we sometimes vary a bit. But I think a great example, what we saw at trial, you guys brought in new evidence, you know, the Ian Polowski FBI or the Ian Polowski recordings. And when people are, when Chad DeVille is telling Melanie Polowski that she needs to then move to Idaho, Falls because Hermesio's dark and she's saying, but you told me to move to Rexburg and hear him and he's like, well, yeah, I said that. But now move to Idaho Falls. That's a part where I'm like, there's no, he knew he was lying about that, didn't he? But, but I think, I think maybe the question for me, and I'll let John share his thoughts. The question for me is, where do his beliefs end and where do does the just the BS begin because I do think he believed in the

LDS faith you know what I mean and I think he believed in the second coming so for me that's where I like try to process at what point does it end and begin but but John has you know I don't know what do you think John well I think there's these there's these moments like the the blessing I mean you you guys you guys had some amazing recordings of, you know, for evidence that you complained. And one of them, for me, was the blessing that he gave Alex Cox. You know, when I listened to that, I thought, this guy believes this. Like, you can't do that.

He's emotional. He's committed, right? When you listen, for me, when I listened to that, I thought, this is a true believer. He really believes that during this blessing, that what he's saying is accurate, that he sees Alex as a soldier who's, he's, he's, he's, He's, you know, he's anointed to go out and carry out this mission. It is confusing because I think it's not consistent. But there's these moments like that when he's giving the blessing to Alex Cox that just seems so real that it's hard to say, how could he not believe this? He seems to in that moment.

Yeah, I think that's a really good point. I think there are, and let me start with this. I think that the one thing that Chad Daybell truly, truly believes in is in Chad Day. Bell and that any religious justification he needs for himself. Yeah, I think he really believes those things. Even that blessing was very self-centered. He's, you're here to protect your sister, who's his, you know, mistress in life. You're here to do as a warrior, what for?

Well, everything that Alex went to war for benefited chat. And so, yeah, at some level, I think it would probably be naive to say he didn't believe in any of it. I think, though, that I think when you look at everything as a whole altogether, I think there's so much justification, though, that I have a hard time, again, believing that he believed everything he said. I don't think he thought JJ entirely were zombies. I don't think he thought that at all. But that, you know, I could be wrong.

and the one thing, I mean, legally a lot of it doesn't matter, right? From our perspective as prosecutors, there's a lot of things people want to know that, like, yeah, that's interesting, but it doesn't matter in a case in terms of the law. Does it matter in other aspects, sure. But what's always nice to be talking to Rob, though, too, and not, yeah, yeah, prosecutor Rob, right, I agree, it doesn't matter in terms of law. I mean, we, of course, you know, as law enforcement, have we talked about that? Absolutely. Have I thought about it a lot? Absolutely. It's, it's, when you see such horrific things happen and you go to, you know, I think it's very human of us to say, well, why? Why did that happen? One of the explanations, well, they believed X, Y, and Z. You know, and I don't know, I actually, it's almost easier to stomach what happened if they really believed everything they said. You know, because then, there's delusional and sick um and not some level of evil um i do really believe though when you look at

the evidence as a whole um there's yeah i i i don't think he really believed that about tyly jj i don't think he believe that about tammy at all now did he did he believe in his own inherent self-righteous greatness i don't know if that made sense the way i just said that but yeah i think he did believe. And I think all of his beliefs emanate from that. Now, before we continue, a quick word from our sponsor, because Jems, as a busy mom and a journalist who needs to make every minute count, whether working or creating more quality family time, insomnia is not my friend and it can throw everything off. When it comes to work, I like my alone time and starting before the sun is up so that I can switch to motherhood as soon as the family wakes. And if I am up all night, worried and fretting and my mind spinning until 3 a.m. because that's what insomnia does to me. I might as well kiss the next day, goodbye. And not just for work

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Use the code true crime. Let me know what you think. Let's get back to our episode. But tell me how you feel. Tell me what your thoughts are on this. I hope that it changes your life as much as it has changed ours. I think part of the, I like the way you put that, Rob, in terms of the self-righteous greatness. Part of assigning this idea of zombies to a lot of the victims, though, I think, but sometimes I think it's hard to separate those.

That if you believe you have this to use your term self-righteous greatness, then you also have this power to assign people to this category of zombies or dark and light, right? And that was another thing, actually, that I talked about in his autobiography. he's doing his mission in Trenton, New Jersey. And he's in the projects. He's in this ghetto area. And he's going from apartment to apartment. So at that time, he would have been like 19 years old, roughly, give or take. And this is before, obviously, this is before any murders, any harm has done to anyone.

He talks about how he starts to see people as light and dark. Even back then. And the autobiography is written in 20, I think it's released in like 20, what, 16? I think so, yeah. I thought it was 20. You can be right. But, you know, that really caught my intention that even going back to the autobiography, he's starting to see the world in these same, you know, binary opposites, this dark and light. And he goes into, you know, to talk to someone in New Jersey and he sees an evil spirit.

And to me, that was really fascinating because in some ways, like, he's already doing this when he's 19. Yeah, yeah. I don't you're exactly right. I do think though, you know, light and dark is a concept in Christianity, Judaism, Islam, a lot of religion. I mean, it's not a foreign concept, right? The idea of there's lightness, there's darkness. The idea that there are light and dark spirits is very rooted in Christian scripture. And so, yeah, I don't have a problem believing at all. that he believes in those things. When you start, I think to me, kind of the breaking point of where I question what he believes is when it's, do you really believe these victims, these people that you are conspiring to murder, are evil, that they're dark? I don't buy that from him.

Does he believe in light and dark? I'm sure he does. I think where the rubber hits the road with these crimes, though, is where the separation starts to occur from me. and that's just me. I'm sure there's people who've worked on this case who see it differently than me. I just think that

where the crimes they end up committing are so removed from the beliefs he claims to have for so long in his life that I think it's, to me that's kind of where the separation of, I begin to question what he really believes there.

But yeah, I think you're, yeah, he does believe in light and dark. He believes, and I think he believes he, I really believe he thinks he has the ability to discern who is light and who is dark. Yeah. At the point of becoming a zombie, that's where I'm like, eh. And what they term a zombie is different than what a zombie is in a movie.

But basically a possessed person, you know. But yeah, it's fascinating. Yeah. I think it potentially, I think it becomes a bit of a slippery slope, right? when you start going down that path when you're 19. And, you know, he does use the term evil spirits in his autobiography. You know, when you start going down that path and you start, like you said, Rob, that you do believe that he believed he could tell people that were dark from light.

How do you stop the train, right? Like if you keep going on that path, does it get to a point where, you know, that you start dehumanizing people? And if you dehumanize someone and they're the way of obtaining your goals, does it lead to murder? I mean, in most cases, it won't. Right. Yeah.

It's, it kind of gets to the core of the question of the case for me is what pushed them to go that far. You know, they could have achieved a lot of what they wanted to achieve without murdering anybody. Right. Other than the money, you know. And to me, that's really where the crux of the crime lies. actually is mostly in the money. But what's interesting to me as, and I mentioned earlier, though, is where so much of it breaks from not even LDS theology, I just would say general Christian thinking, you know. Right. Right. I don't know that it's completely anti-Christian to say that someone

has an idea of what's good and what's evil, and if they see that in someone else. Right, Christ, Christ, in the New Testament, Christ cast out evil spirits. Right, he cast out. Yeah, there's evil spirits in the New Testament, right? Right. And yeah, there's that aspect of that. But just getting to the idea of giving you the power of over someone else's life. Yeah.

The execution of an individual. To me, that's just where it's just that separation point. Well, I'm going to jump in here quick. So the question you asked is, what pushed them to go that far? I agree with you. I think that's the question we've really been trying to answer for five years. And so part of what you said is that it was money.

But I mean, do you think that would you say, could you elaborate on that a little bit maybe? And I think we talked about this a lot of trial, certainly comfortable. Yeah. True. You know, the theme of both trials essentially was money, sex, and power. I felt like at her trial money sex was more the thing I mean we said money sex power for both because you can't separate it but I think he enjoyed exercising power over people I think he really enjoyed that after just from things Tammy's family have said and I think

I'm not saying Chad Daybell was always a murderer but Chad Daybill was always the same person he is today. At least, I would say from the time he was a young adult. I think you see from his autobiography, he's that same guy. And I think he really enjoyed exercising influence over other people. I think he was hoping to obtain, obtain, that's the wrong word for it, but I think he was hoping to become a higher in LDS church hierarchy. I think he wanted to, I think he wanted callings that put him in a position of apparent authority over people. And I think that's all based in the evidence that we put forth in trial and just all the stuff that we reviewed.

But yeah, and then I think money, I think money was a huge motivator for them. When you look back at the evidence, money is always this underlying, this underlying theme. You know, Kobe actually, I think he said he's here. He testified to that at his mother's trial. And I think money was huge, a huge motivator for them. Honestly, I probably see money as the primary motivator for the crimes. That's just me, again. Yeah.

Other people can look at this and see it so differently. But for me, that was kind of the primary motivator for the actual crime. Yeah. And thanks for sharing your thoughts. Yeah, everyone sees it so differently. And that's why I think it's something, and the rabbit holes are real, that's why it's something that we can discuss for as long as we have. it leaves so many questions on the table even after, you know, the convictions.

So, so we're discussing this with us. It's, I'm sure it's affected your life in many ways. Yeah. Anything else, John? Well, I was just going to, Rob just mentioned the issue of power and how important that was to chat. I totally agree with that. I think you and I, Lauren, you and I talked about in one of our early podcasts about

how you and I both believe that he really wanted to be. Bishop and he never he never accomplished that goal. I think that really affected him. It wasn't just about being Bishop, it was about getting some recognition from the church too. I think he wanted recognitions for his books, even though they were fiction. I think he was hoping that he'd get some shoutouts from some of the higher authorities in the church and that wasn't happening. So, you know, I think some of that runs together. Well, do you have any thoughts on that, right? Or do you want to add to that, Lauren. Yeah, I would like to add to that. I think beyond power, money, and sex, one specific word that you used with Chad Daybaud in opening statements was significance. You said he wanted

to feel significant. And that's actually a word John has used to in our podcast, his desire for significance. And I noted that in your opening statements, in one thing that John and I talked about, back to what John is implying, I refer to it as Bishop NB in our early podcast days that I thought that Chad had Bishop envy, that in the LDS faith, it's a lay clergy, it's service-oriented, you are called for, you don't, it's not like being a preacher where you necessarily go to school and you become a preacher. It's a lay clergy, it's service-oriented. You're called by someone in higher authority from you to be ahead over the entire congregation. or ward in the LDS faith and the bishop leads the ward.

It's like the preacher of the congregation. And I suspected, and from my research and from what I saw that Chad Dable had Bishop Mb, that he felt he was supposed to be bishop. And that never happened. And that's even why he moved to Rexberg. That's what I suspected. And so I'm curious what you think there. You've got a smile on your faith.

I think you're exactly right. I think you're exactly right. We know that he wanted to be bishop. Okay. And yeah, that was, and I don't know that ever really came out at trial that much. It didn't, that's why I wanted to ask. But yeah, no, I think you're spot on. I think he 100% wanted to be bishop.

I agree, actually, I think that's part of the reason he came up here. There was a change in the bishop at his ward in Springville shortly before that. that we're aware of. And yeah, I think you're exactly, I think that's a very, to me, you know, I don't know how it does it affect the case. Yes, not legally, but in the terms of who he is and what he did. Yeah, I think that's spot on. Is that one reason he moved up to Rexberg, thinking that maybe he had some more opportunities there, or do we know that? I don't know if he thought he'd come up here and become a bishop. You know, he, Rexberg is one of the most concentrated LDS communities, in the world. Correct. I think it's 94, 95% LDS and very large activity rate. So there's a lot of

people to choose from. So I don't know if he thought he would come up here and become Bishop. But no, but I think you're the way you see that. To me, I see that the same way with him. I think most, I think most people who know about him think that. Yeah. Thanks for confirming what we've suspected and thought. Thank you. Yeah, and I want to compliment. I mean, it sounds weird to compliment you on, again, things that you did at trial. But I thought that word was well used. I feel like Chad Debel wanted to be significant.

And John talked a lot about that in our podcast, too, sort of like, what was it called? Death Anxiety, John? It's a very specific term. Yeah, there's, I mean, that would be the most straight way of putting it. I think it goes back to what Rob talked about at the beginning of our interview is that in his autobiography, he never takes responsibility for everything. And he's not, the reason he's not taking responsibility is because he's, as you pointed out, Rob, he has all these shortcomings or these failures.

I think when he gets into middle age, that's starting to catch up with them. You know, he wants acknowledgement and validation for his books. And when he's going to these conferences and people are finally paying attention to him, I think he feels like he's kind of making up some lost ground and getting some attention. And I think that was a part of this too. And then when Lori steps in and of course gives him, you know, even more attention than a relationship and kind of like his ideal relationship, then, you know, you're at that point, you're, you're throwing a match into a powder keg. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah. Can I ask, I mean, there's a lot of things I want to ask. So Julie Rowe, that's another person that, I mean, she came up in Chad Daybill's trial, actually quite a few times in the end, more than Lori's. And in our podcast, you know, in sort of creating Chad Daybill 2.0, as you say, he was always the same person. Absolutely. She played a big part in sort of this transformation, in my opinion. This is in my opinion. And I guess I should have also said, too, by the way,

If Rob can't talk about anything, you're just going to say, no comment. We're going to move on. Right. Did Julie Roe come up in any of your evidence or the research, or did you find her important in this case? I think Julie Roe, I think maybe the big, and this, I think it's interesting, from my understanding,

and so I hope I'm factually correct here, he published one of her books about near-death experiences. That's actually correct. Yep. Yeah, did fairly well for my understanding. And then all of a sudden he's had a near-death experience. I think it's published later in his autobiography. I want to be really careful what I say.

Those type of stories to me are always suspect. I'm not saying people haven't had near-death experiences. I'm just saying any time I hear about something like that, suspect. But I think that and this is again where I go back to I think Chad believes in Chad when he saw that that was a way to make money all of a sudden then he had one as well.

So I think in that aspect, did she contribute to this specific case though? I don't really think so. I know she talked about it at the beginning. There are some people up here in Rexberg who are friends with Julie Rowe and would say to me, like, did you hear that she said this about where the kids are? So I heard these things that she was saying at the beginning of the case.

I'm aware that at the very beginning of the case, she was like, oh, there's no way Chad Daybill would have done any of this. And then it became, well, maybe there's some darkness around Chad, but there's darkness around law enforcement. I remember hearing that the kids were on La Hua Beach. I remember them telling me that she said that. And then next thing I knew, she was on a TV thing, talking about how Chad had sexually assaulted her. So, you know, a real change in what she was saying. But in terms of the actual case, no, she really did not factor in. Thanks.

Yeah. I would like to ask you, um, hardest day of the trial for you, Chad Daybell trial. The hardest day of both trials for me were autopsy photos. And I still, I get, you know, when you do a case like this, when the kids were found, like good prosecutors, we went out to the scene.

I know Chad's trial was brought up, the prosecutors went to the scene, and as if that wasn't supposed to happen, but prosecutors go to the scenes of crimes. So we were there. Multiple prosecutors from my office were there when the children were found. When I helped draft that warrant and the probable cause to find them.

And it was very obvious. It was very difficult to see that. It was very difficult to see that. It was very difficult to see that a young boy had been thrown away like a piece of trash, and then to see what they had done to Tiley. And then you put it in a box, right? And I think that's kind of a skill I learned in the military. You put some things in a box for a time. You know, you always have to open the box eventually, otherwise it will explode. But you put it in a box. And when probably the

thing to me that I remember almost the most and probably the hardest about Lori's trial and then going through it again at Chad's. I think I was more prepared for Chad's, but you know, I was there when the children were found. We attended the autopsies of those children. And so I was

very familiar with what the picture showed. I'd seen it with my own eyes. And then, but then, like I said, sorry, I'm being kind of wordy. it's still this is hard to talk about but you put it in a box and

and we actually showed as few of pictures autopsy photos as we felt like we could tell everything that the witness that the that he needed to be able to testify to what he

he needed to say and I remember showing him pictures of JJ and looking over at the jury and seeing their reaction and not that I didn't know how horrific it was because I did, but because I had kept it in this box for so long. I remember looking at them in Lori's trial and I just said, holy crap, this is really, really bad.

And again, not that I didn't know it, I knew it. It just really hit me again how horrific it was. And that, for me, probably of both trials, was the hardest. especially the pictures of JJ because he still looks like JJ or just and the public I think the judge made a good call that we weren't going to show those to the public and I he has sealed those and I don't think the people don't need to see it but it was so that was just like gut wrenching for me and for Chad's trial the anticipation of that day negative anticipation, I guess I would say. That, to me, that's the hardest part of the trial was showing those pictures. Another day that actually kind of surprised me at how kind of difficult it was for me at Chad's trial was listening to Tammy's children talk about her the way they did.

And I don't want to say much more than that about it, just that it felt, and I hate using the word feel, or felt, in a case like this, but it just felt bad to hear Tammy be talked about by her own children the way she was. Especially when I just don't believe

that she was the way they described her. Right. That was hard. Sorry, so long answer. Those were the hardest to be, the hardest things of the trials. Thank you for sharing. When you finally find her thing, You want the whole world to know about that thing.

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Like, he put his own children, in my opinion, on display for the world to criticize and judge because he was okay with it, you know, almost like he wasn't going to testify. And this is how I say it correct me if I'm wrong. He was, you know, didn't do it. He's going to let his kids do it for him, which I feel like is very Chad-like. Yeah, and I want to anything I say I want to say in the life that I respect The rights of a defendant to present the defense they choose Right, they not right

A good defense is important yeah Yeah, I just and so Yeah for me it was just it was just hard to hear a victim of such a horrific crime be described the way she was. That was rough. Yeah. It was hard. Anything, John, to you want to say right now?

No, I'm just listening. I'm riveted. Keep going. And your explanation wasn't too long, Rob. It was great. Thank you. Yeah, thank you. No, it was, I'm not, you know, not even just being a journalist, not even in the trenches like you are.

are yeah, I'll never forget those two days at both Lori's trial. And I guess technically I didn't see it as at Chats, but I did see it at Lori's. And I will never forget. And I agree seeing JJ because he looked like JJ. And I've talked about it enough. You know, I've talked about it. I've shared it on the news, you know, what I've seen to. And it was, yeah, the reality. And I know what you mean, but just how bad it is. You know, we have to move on with our lives. And so you put it to the side and those moments we reminded just just how horrendous how unfathomable yeah yeah yeah yeah um yeah for yeah that was the uh without a doubt for me that was the hardest day of both trials to skip around a bit i've just been writing things down as i as i think so i'm sorry this is this is

kind of a bit of a shift from what we're talking about right now but um laurie lorry's trial Well, no, actually, let me go to this first. We'll stick to Lori's trial on this. This is actually right on topic. When she wanted, speaking of the autopsy photos, when she wanted to leave the courtroom, she didn't want to see those. Do you remember that day? Can you take us back there? What that was...

Oh, yeah. Yeah, that was... And I guess I would skip forward then to her sentencing that Judge Boyd, mentioned that. You know, you made everybody else look at them, but you wouldn't. Yeah. Yeah, I remember looking over at her, you know, looking at the jurors, looking at the witness, looking over at her, and seeing her look at the ground. At least that's what it looked like to me. Like, she was just staring down at the ground. Yeah, I definitely remember that. I remember, you know, we had a small hearing about whether or not she had to be present,

and the judge said she was going to be present. And that was really interesting to me. It kind of, to me, went back to the, this doesn't count for me. You know, and that was something I brought up a lot in closing at Lurie's, that she would say that to people. This doesn't count for me. And to me, it kind of felt like that. You know, and I always want to be really careful what I say specifically about.

out defendants and what they do in trial. But yeah, I thought that was just kind of a, what's the word? Just throwing the responsibility off in a way to me. Like, I won't even look at what I've done. Yeah. To that, yeah, and I agree. It was a shocking moment in court for me. What about, you know, I thought it was pretty despicable. You know, I'll be the one with the stronger language here, you know, just appalling. But then I saw Chad Debaugh in trial and how he was completely emotionless. To me, this is my opinion. He felt, to use your word, felt emotionless.

And then it made me wonder, what's worse now? Like, you know, to have some feeling really, I don't even. even want to see this, even though I'm going to make the jury and everyone in the gallery, look at my children that I did this to, and I'm not going to even look, or not even caring and just the complacency. I don't know, but, and I guess this isn't even a question because I'm feeding you my thought. I'm just sharing my thoughts. So I don't, I don't know, but any thoughts, what you saw are different or? I guess what are your thoughts about Chad's reaction and trial? Maybe that's a good question. Overall, I think Chad was fairly stoic during trial. You know, I didn't show much

emotion. There were times he would shake his head no to things being said. I think he did that a fair amount. I did, to me, I did notice a change in his demeanor. You know, I talked about the autopsy photos earlier. In both trials, I felt a shift in tone of the trial that day changes everything. And I felt like I saw a bit of a shift in his demeanor. I'm certainly not an expert at reading people's faces. So this is purely just me, some of the thoughts I have. I'm not saying this is what people would think. This is just, I saw at Chadstrow, what I would call kind of like micro expressions.

And I know the cameras went very good so people outside the courtroom wouldn't see them. But to me, I felt like I saw like changes in demeanor. that unless you were pretty close to him, you wouldn't have noticed. But, you know, like I said, I'm not an expert reading faces. But that's what I felt like I saw. And what did those micro-expressions look like to you? What were they? The biggest one I saw was when he was convicted.

Again, I don't know what he was thinking. I've never spoken to him. But I just, to me, I noticed this kind of change just in his demeanor. in his face, the way he was holding his face. It really stuck out to me. I talked to several people and like the other attorneys about it. I felt like I saw that. Just kind of a, holy crap, this just happened.

I actually, the cameras weren't great, and I wasn't in the courtroom, but I actually talked a little bit about the same. I picked up on something very similar. There was a moment there towards the end when he was convicted where he actually seemed to me like he showed some emotion. and there was a it was just a small window it seemed like it was a window of about five to ten seconds but he the gravity of what happened for a moment seemed to sink in so i i agree rob i kind of i said the same thing on one of our shows looking at that so i don't i don't feel crazy and saying that

thank you for thank you for validating that because a lot of people didn't agree with me well and i don't even know i don't know if everyone in the courtroom felt that way but that's that's what it appeared like to me. Rob, when you talk about kind of these memorable moments, were there any other moments like that that really stood out? I know for me, we've talked a lot about Chad, but in Laurie's trial, you know, when you guys played the call was summer,

I thought that was extremely powerful. And then Colby, the call with Colby and Colby on the stand, I thought Colby was really exceptional. and those, to me, those were very emotional moments. And I was worried that in Chad's trial that you guys wouldn't have the same type of, you know, juries are very swayed by those types of emotional moments as most human beings are, I think. But what are your thoughts on that? Were there other moments that you felt were really impactful?

So let me just really quickly address the summer in Colby phone calls because they they were emotional. They also had a lot of evidentiary value, which is why we played them. Yeah, yeah. Because the things that she said in those conversations, so from an evidence standpoint, not that what Colby and Somers said wasn't important because it was, but from an evidence standpoint, the things she said in response to their questions and comments were of great evidentiary value to us, her demeanor in her response, and then literally the things she said. said. And so that's why we played them. And I just want to be clear on that. You're right, juries do hear the emotion. We didn't play those for the emotion. We played them for the evidence

of the things she said. Other things, you know, I think that the greatest kind of trove of evidence was their own communications in the ICloud accounts that we had. And I, those kind of aha moments when you start reading those to the jury, you can you can just see it clicking. like home bike it's not just the prosecutors and cops saying this it's not just their friends saying that they said this this is them saying this and that was uh those are kind of to me evidence wise those were like really big moments those communications between them their own words you know the jail phone call between chad and lory from june 9th 2020 when we're when the property was being searched that's very powerful you can hear it his voice you know we we could have spent hours

playing jail phone calls that would have had evidentiary value and interest to the jury. At the end of the day, it was just, you know, you get past a point of diminishing returns, and those trials were already long enough. But their own words to me are the things that were the biggest aha moments, the biggest. And I believe they were largely convicted based on the things they said to each other in phone calls and text and communications. Yeah. Speaking of their words to each other, what were your impressions about, I call them? them the love texts.

It was mostly... The James and Elaine story. The James and Elena. We always refer to it as the James and Elaine. James and Elaine. Okay. Right. Yeah.

And that was, that, like, told, he literally told the whole story in consecutive order. Yeah. He did. And what was interesting about that is, and we did this at both trials, we then took that story and started plugging in things that we could establish from that story that really happened. We actually were able to obtain their LDS Temple attendance records and plug that into that story. Flights they took, we could plug it into that story at different conferences they were at, plug it into that story. And so what started out is kind of just a, if I can say, juvenile sexting

session. Yeah. Yeah. Because I felt like it was kind of juvenile. It was juvenile. It was juvenile. Yeah. Turned into quite an evidentiary find. And that's, you know, we, we did. bring it up at trial, not because it was juvenile, not because it was embarrassing, but because you could, that was the story. And he told it, you know, Chad Daybell was convicted because Chad Daybell said things. That was a huge part of why he was convicted. He told us where to find Tiley. He told us about their story, you know, and his text to Lori, he told us. And so did, and so did Lori. Lory. Lerre did the same thing in her text, both to him and to Alex. And so, yeah, their communications, that story again, I think for a lot of people,

you maybe don't see the evidentiary value because you're kind of caught up in the substance of it, you know, some of the phrases that get used. I saw a lot of really funny memes after a Lori's trial based on the James and Elena story. But evidence-wise, there was a lot of evidence in there. And it allowed us to take his words and tell the jury, what happened. Yeah. He told the entire timeline. Yeah. Yeah. And I want to say that word to me in this case,

timeline is one of the most important words. The timeline is so damning. Sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off. Oh, I was going to actually thank you for, yeah, you guys did a brilliant job with that. And I don't think that was lost on anyone, but thank you for taking that story and really amplifying it and filling in the blanks and it was it was amazing what you guys did with it it was for me anyway it was extremely impactful so you guys did amazing with that oh thank you yeah you know and uh lindsay blake really kind of led that portion up and i think she just really knocked it out of the park with that yeah yeah she was she'd be all with it i noticed the timeline that you guys emphasized you emphasized it in the opening and the closing and Lindsay Blank.

You guys had a poster showing everything. So going back to what you said, the timeline was so important. And I do know that in talking to, well, some Lori Vallow jurors, someone told me that they emphasized that they wanted you guys to have more of a timeline for chat. Yeah. And so we met with the jurors a few weeks after Lori's trial. And we actually had put up multiple timelines. And then they said, well, a timeline would have been helpful. And my first reaction was like, well, yeah, that's why we had them. But we didn't put it in the opening. And when you're just basically spraying a jury with a fire hose of information, which is what this case was. that's why chads in the opening we put a timeline in the opening because we just and i really tried to emphasize how important this timeline was going to be in the opening and uh because of what lorry's jurors had said and then we had multiple timelines we had finance timelines we had travel timelines um and uh anyway it um yeah but you know i i

when when people ask me how do you think these trials are going to go i i said you know you can you can only have so many people die around you within this certain frame of time and not be involved with it right like yeah your girlfriends your married girlfriend's husband dies and then her kids go missing and show up on your property and your spouse dies and someone else gets shot at you can only have so much of that you know um there's a limit to the amount of death like that you can have around you without being involved. And that timeline just, I think, it hammers that home. Yeah. Speaking of only so many people can die around you, this is actually a question that has shown up here multiple times. But thoughts on Alex Cox says death.

I'm as bewildered. I'll just say that I'm as bewildered as everybody else. Okay. I have what I I I I yeah I I'll say this

I think I can say this I was very shocked when we got the autopsy results it wasn't what I you know and you have to be open minded in cases like these

you don't want to reach a conclusion before something happens but you know you you do think about well could it be this or this and then when that came down I was I was surprised Yeah.

You know, there's some interesting things, though. He, I believe that, you know, blood clots were involved. He was a trucker. Truckers often have blood clots, you know. Like, there's just some, it's just really interesting. I'll just say that. It's really interesting. Yeah.

Well, I'll say something. I don't think it was natural. How about that I'll say what I think. And I'm not even saying that the autopsy is wrong. I do believe that the, you know, that, you know, that. They did a very thorough job. Yeah. I can say that.

I know they did a very thorough. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. They did a very thorough job. So I'm not doubting that that is what he died from, a lung clock. I just maybe, there's a part of me that wonders how. But thank you for sharing. It was a thorough job.

Very convenient timing. Well, and the Ian Pulaski recordings after when they're talking. about it after that, okay, sorry, I won't go down. Rabbit hole. We'll stay focused. Rabbit hole. We'll stay focused. I think I'm going to stay with Rob's answer on that one. So, yeah, maybe there's elements of the autopsy that I don't know about, but, I mean, maybe there's certain toxic substances that they can't find.

I don't know. There's a lot of theories out there, but it does seem like really peculiar timing. Yeah. Yeah, the timing is, you know, I don't think, yeah, it's strange timing. It was very interesting. And, you know, that happened in the very early phases of the investigation. And it was like, guess what just happened? It was like, holy crap.

That was pretty nutty. John, do you have anything else? I was going to kind of jump to something else I want to ask. Well, actually, no. Lori, Lori Ballow's beliefs. I want to ask you that. You know, we spent a lot of time talking about Chad's. But Chad isn't going to have a, Chad didn't speak.

Chad isn't going to have, you know, the sentencing that Lori had. And we heard Lori speak at her sentencing. And we heard her seeming to believe in some very bizarre things. I know that, you know, Judge Boyce mentioned, you know, a personality disorder she has. and, you know, some things were mentioned, but, well, let me ask, do you believe Lori believes it? Yes. And, and I do, you know, as we talked about before we came on, there's, be careful what I say here, but I think I can say this. And I, this is probably to me, I've thought probably more about this myself and what Chad believes. I do believe she believes it. I believe she believes it more today than she.

she did yesterday and the day before that and the day. And I certainly believe she believes it more now than when the crimes were committed. And I think you can go back and see through interviews of witnesses that did on TV and things. I think there were things that she wasn't fully, you know, I believe it was Melanie Gibb on a TV interview, said something the fact of that she said, if Chad's a devil, he's a good one. Yeah. Yes. You know, and that, to me, that shows some doubt. That shows some questioning.

Yeah. And I, and this is 100% just me. Right. Not attorney would. Rob would. I think that. Rob unplugged. People, people can choose to believe things that may even seem delusional.

to assuage their own guilt and trauma from doing things, trauma from committing horrible atrocities. And to me, that's kind of how I see that. I'm not a psychologist. I literally took one psychology class in high school and not even one in college. So, you know, I, you know, I, that's that's kind of how I see it now but I also want to be very very clear I and I said this at

sentencing so I feel very comfortable saying it here I never saw any evidence whatsoever that her belief was so overriding or so controlling that she didn't know right from wrong and that she didn't have a choice and doing this job you do every once in a while meet someone who is so. I'll say we had a murder in 2018 in Rexburg. It was the first one we'd had in like 20 years. And we've actually had multiple since Tiley and JJ. But this murder before, we had someone interestingly enough,

also believed her victim had a dark spirit. It was her father. She shot her father and she was telling us her father, telling us, telling law enforcement that her father's spirit had told her to go kill the body because an evil spirit was in it, which was kind of weird to me when the whole everything started coming about, Lori Valo. It was like, and Chad, like, oh my gosh, this isn't the first time I've heard this. But the person in that case, she also, I think, was with it enough to form the intent, but was so much more involved in the delusion than Lori Valo was, so much more. And so

what I'm trying to say is does she believe it? Yes, I believe she believes it. I think it's almost naive to think she doesn't. But I also do not believe at all, nor did I ever see anything that led me to believe that her belief system was so overriding that she couldn't control what she did. I think it made her more easy to manipulate. but she also, it wasn't so overriding that she wasn't able to manipulate people around her as well. And I think you look at the one thing that when we've talked to psychologists in this case and other cases, they say more than what people say they believe or see or hear, look at what they do.

And, you know, Lori was paying the rent. She had vehicles. She was feeding herself. She was making all these other rational decisions. And so, yeah, long story short, she believed it, sure. Did it control her? I don't think one bit. I think she made a decision to do what she did.

That's Rob Woods, my opinion. And I'm going to let John take this, but I want to give you some credit, Rob, when you said you're not a psychologist and you've only taken one class. some true crime sleuth have spied a DSM manual on your desk. Yes, I do have DSM manual. So there's that. I think every prosecutor's office has a DSM manual. Okay, okay. It's not just for this case.

Okay. But I'll let John happen. I'll let the psychologist. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers, spammers, even stalkers. It's why you get endless robocalls and why ads seem to follow you everywhere.

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Start your free trial today at aura.com slash remove. Protect yourself now atora.com slash remove. Just in the room, I have this conversation with you. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I just want to say, Rob, I think you're doing great. and I want you to know that it's not too late to switch professions if you want to come over. So we'd love to have you as a psychologist. Yeah.

To your point there, one of the most interesting moments for me, for Lori, was when she was pulled into the police station in Arizona, and she gave a brief interview because Charles, you know, he was on the body camp footage complaining that he was concerned about his well-being and his safety. And she believes, basically at that time, she believes the same thing. She's still immersed in this belief system. But in that interview, she's clearly able to separate the context of being with police officers and saying the right things versus her crazy beliefs, right?

So yeah, I think that even back then, that was 2019, early 2019. That speaks to your issue, that she could still separate fact from fiction. and she could still function and she could still walk into a police station and tell the police, essentially, no, I'm not crazy. I don't need a mental health evaluation. So I think you're saying something similar. Yeah. And, you know, it's interesting because I need to talk to any prosecutor who's done it for more than two or three years, and especially once they start handling felonies. So many people who commit crimes are mentally ill or have a mental illness or something that you can diagnose in the DSM-5, right? But I always say, you know, there's a lot of

a lot more people with mental illness who don't commit crimes. And one thing, this is completely anecdote that was interesting to me during this case, sometime during this case, I can't remember when I started seeing these Abilify commercials. And I just remember like a lady gets in a car with another car and they're friends and have you stopped hearing the voices? And but why that was interesting to me. not that it directly related to Lori or the case, but to my job as a whole dealing with people who struggle with mental illness.

Most people, I do think, when they struggle with some form of mental illness, even if it's delusional thinking or hearing or seeing things, go get help. I think that's what a lot of people do. But I just remember thinking like, that's interesting. Again, that had nothing to do with Lori herself. So there is certainly, in this case, an interplay with mental illness. I don't think it'd be naive to pretend like there wasn't. Again, though, I just go back to you.

I think her actions showed that she was able to make rational decisions, and she knew what right and wrong was, and she still chose to do what she did. Can I ask John about, I thought it really interesting, Rob, how you said that you think she believes of more now than you even did, And I think I agree with you Because there's this bit of a denial that's forming Like she's so self-protected

In my opinion That's my thought about it But John, what are your thoughts about that Since you again, you're the psychologist in the room Here, Lisa in stryfkuling But Lisa has a Obechimred leant on leant

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It makes sense to me. I think she's building that more of a defensive system or system of belief around what happens, so she doesn't have to deal with it. I think Rob kind of actually said that. I agree with that. I think it's if there is Gild or ever was

guilt, she wants to completely push that out of awareness. So I definitely think she's after the fact, I think she's really trying to figure out a way to not feel and not have to take responsibility or confront what happened. And just from my perspective, what the day that I really thought started thinking that was at her sentencing from the statement she made. That's what kind of really hit home to me. Yeah. Again, not a psychologist.

That's just kind of how I have seen it. Not too late, Rob. I don't want to go back to school. Yeah, I don't blame you. Neither do I. Yeah, we've kept you a long time. I know that. I had a couple more questions,

but John, is there something you wanted to ask? Yeah, yeah, thanks for spending so much time with this, Rob. Thank you. Truly, thank you. We really appreciate it. We've been wanting to talk to you for a long time, obviously. Like five years, so, you know.

Yeah, but we're quite aware. that we wouldn't be able to do that until everything wrapped up. I think, you know, the Olympics are on now, and we're getting to track and field, and, you know, they're running sprints now, but they're starting to get into some of the distance races. And I actually, you know, knowing that we were going to talk to you, Rob, there was a marathon or some qualifying for the marathon. And I was thinking about you in this trial, actually. And I thought, you know, marathon runners, when I was watching a little bit, I thought, they have to really go through a lot. And that, you know, they're training and when they compete.

And, you know, I kept thinking, I wonder what kind of a toll that takes on those people. And I kind of thought about you, Rob, in the sense that this seems like to me like you were in a marathon. And I don't know that there's any training that you could ever have for something like this. So in that sense, I mean, did this process, did this trial have an impact on you? And if so, could you maybe talk a little bit about that? Yeah. It was really hard. It was very difficult.

In this case, especially, you know, I felt like I was unjustly attacked for some things in this case. I subjected to some hearings that I felt were ridiculous. And it's hard to have your character slam like that. Having said that, the hardest part, though, is just the subject matter of this case. Murder cases are always difficult. Like I said, we've dealt with a few others in our jurisdiction, even since these cases happen. And, you know, you're dealing with the worst thing someone can do, basically.

And, you know, so there's a lot of crimes. You can, you know, like theft. You can pay someone back with drug cases. A lot of times we're very concerned with the welfare of the defense. And then you get a case where someone has taken someone else's life. And I've said this at every sentencing that I've done for a murder is they die. There's really no justice in a murder case in full justice. I think there's a sense of justice that someone has held accountable,

that you cannot replace what's been lost. In this case as well, again, this case was not really was not about religion to me. but the religious side of it to me was really, it felt dark. I hate saying that, but I think that's, it was, there's a darkness to it. And it was the case, it took up so much time. And the beginning of it, there was so much, where are these kids, where are these kids, where are these kids? and then you find the kids, you know, like, wow, this is horrific. You know, it's interesting you talk about a marathon.

My mom was a highly competitive marathon runner when I was a child. And so, yeah, I look at all the training and everything that people go into. And in this case, I remember when we found Tiley and JJ, I very naively thought, okay, we're going to get this thing wrapped up. And, boy, I mean, I could not have been more wrong, right? We were still so far, four years away from the finish line for Chad, almost the day. And that, yeah, like I said, I can't remember we were already rolling the show when this happened. I said it before a lot of people remarked to me, that you look like you've aged 10 years.

And it's true. It really did take a toll emotionally and physically. But having said that, you know, you draw on your experiences. A big motivator for me was the victims, the little living victims in this case. You just, you want to do right by them. And a big motivator for me, we're Tiley, JJ, and Tammy, you want to do it right by them. Not going to go in the details about it, but when we had our clerical error on Chad's indictment, there were two hours where I was just like, oh, my word, we've just,

Yeah. You know, and the funny thing is it wouldn't have changed the sentence, and it wouldn't have changed the outcome. But just, oh, it was just horrific. It's just horrific. Rob is referring to the moment where there was an error in JJ's death date. Yeah. We never heard that.

Yeah, go ahead. And, you know, so I guess I'm getting a little off topic. But just, yeah, it was very difficult. I think for everyone involved a case like this is definitely going to leave its marks. You know, when people would ask me about it, I would often say I'd rather go back

to Iraq than do this. That was a less difficult experience being deployed in the military than this was. And, but it wouldn't have done to have missed it.

that, you know, we, I'm very, very proud of the work that we did. The law enforcement performed that the prosecutors performed. I'm very proud of the victims, in this case, the living victims, the way that they've held their head high. And so, yeah, I'm just rambling now. So I apologize. No, you're doing great. You're doing great. Thank you.

keep going yeah thank you and well let me can I ask for that moment the clerical error um those two hours that was that was stressful that was yeah you can really you can really like space you know go like this and

yeah it was a stressful two hours for us out there I remember I bought everyone sandwiches I was with the woodcocks we bought everyone sandwiched like it was just like we didn't know what to do so I like ordered food because that's what I do is I eat what was going on with you guys you know well when the judge first said it, I was like, well, no, you're wrong, Judge. That's not what it says. I had been pouring over that indictment for the three days before that to make sure we'd met all of our

elements. And I, you know, if the date we had in there was the same date for Tiley, and I think had it said something like January 17th, I would have noticed that, but it was just this date that was already in our heads. And that was not a count that we had intended to amend. And so, And that was the argument that the judge found for us. I'm like, well, you didn't even have permission to change that. Which was, he made a good, he made the right call, I think. But yeah, and I just brought that up, you know, like you have these moments where you're just, that are really difficult.

And I, you know, I think for everyone involved, I think for the defense attorneys, you know, and I don't want to speak for them. I think this is a really hard case to deal with to go through a trial. like that and I think they all did a really good job and yeah it's it's a murder is just a horrible horrible thing it's the worst thing that can be done and in dealing with the aftermath of it whether it's a case like this that has a lot of media attention or a case that nobody hears about that murder cases are just really difficult I think absolutely and this one was horrendous this one was you know, the worst of humanity, really.

It was just... Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was hard. This is a personal question. I have, but speaking of hard and the worst of humanity, one part of this case, you know, and this is a personal figure,

this is, I want this from Rob Wood unplugged. This has, because I realize this doesn't have any legal implications, but a lot of this case did have to do with belief. and extreme beliefs or whatever we thought. And I know that you're LDS, you know, as am I. And I think I'm curious to know if your faith was ever tested or your beliefs were affected personal beliefs by processing this case. So I can tell you mine were a little bit. They were, it was.

You know, it's really hard when again, and again, I'll say it a million, times this case wasn't about religion but you can't talk about it without talking about the religious side and it's really hard when you're listening to jail phone calls between chad and laurie when she was arrested and he wasn't and they're reading scriptures that maybe means something to you and you're hearing these people talk about it uh it's really hard you know when lDS culture temples are so sacred. And it's really hard wanting to go to a place that's supposed to be sacred when you know that people had been there. Not after they even had an affair or done something, but I kill children, you know. And this is maybe the best way to say this. I remember being at church

with my wife, we were talking about the Old Testament and Abraham and Isaac. And I turned to my wife and I said it a little louder than I should have. I didn't mean for anyone else to hear it. I was like, this bull crap. God never told anyone to kill a kid. And I don't want to offend anyone with saying that. I don't want to comment on the veracity of that scripture or not, just that that's how I felt at the moment.

But, you know, I remember talking with my wife a lot about this. And to me, honestly, the biggest hero of this case for me is my wife and her even kill and steady. dealing with me and uh but one day she's like are you you you're not going to allow them to change what you believe you know or um and and i think she was right you know uh but yeah i did it did it make me think about it oh yeah a heck of a lot and probably will for the rest of my life yeah thank you for sharing that um and i appreciate your honesty one thing just I think it's been interesting that has been brought up to me by people that I've worked with.

Some people have questioned, you know, it's public knowledge that I'm LDS and that some people felt like maybe we were helping the LDS church cover this case up or... I wanted to ask this, yes. Yeah, and to me that was... A lot of conspiracy theories out there, right? Like, oh, there, you know, it was interesting even at Chad's trial, a text that Melanie Gibb had sent me at talking about the church's image. You know, it was interesting.

He didn't show my response, which was nothing. I didn't respond to that because I didn't even know how to respond to that because the LDS Church has their own PR machine that can take care of anything like that. And it never even crossed in my mind to... You and Keith Morrison weren't in... You and Keith weren't trying together to protect the Listerch? I've never spoken to Keith Morrison. And, yeah, no, that was never like a thing.

for us like because I thought obviously because they come from the LDS background there's these commonalities but I never really saw this in any way as a referendum or that's not the right word but comment on the actual LDS faith or Christianity in general or religion in general I to me I even with how much she believed it and with what chatter may or may not I believe religion for them was more of a tool than it was an actual belief system that had meaning, if that makes sense. And I realized by saying that, that's just barely skimming the surface of what I mean. But yeah, anyway, that long story short, long way to answer your question.

And to go further with the conspiracy theory that this is a cover of the LDS Church, yes, it's public record, you're LDS, but there are some, the majority are not on this case. And I don't want to get into everybody's religion, but this is, this was, even though it's highly tab to expert. Every wide variety of religion. There was a wide variety. That's what I want to say. Of people involved with this case. Yeah. Right.

That's what I want to say. I don't want to like pinpoint everyone's religion, but this was not like some big LDS group. No. No, it was not. And again, when I, some people first brought that to me kind of out of concern. And I've always just kind of thought it was funny. Like, I've, I know that. my constituents don't really believe that.

And if any of them do, it's not enough to matter. But it was, I don't know, I've always thought that was amusing. Yeah. I'm just curious, you know, how you reacted to the verdicts, both then and now. What are your thoughts about that? Thank you, John. Yeah. You know, the scary thing about a jury trial is you never know what a jury will do.

And it only takes one person, one. juror hanging. That's not the same thing as an acquittal. I was never worried that either of them would be acquitted. That was never a concern to me. There was, to me, the evidence was overwhelming. And I think the jurors have used that word to describe it. It was overwhelming.

I think that not only did we meet our burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt, we far surpassed it. and we probably could have made those trials even shorter, but in a case like this, you don't, you know, leave anything on the table. You put it all out there. And so, but, so my reaction, relief that they, relief that no one hung the jury, and we didn't have to do it again, you know, relief that they,

they saw the truth for what it was. Yeah, I, it's, it's actually interesting to get a jury verdict. There have been times where you'll have a case, and even when someone's found guilty, you're like, oh, this is just a crappy situation. Even if you win, it's a crappy situation. I think as a prosecutor, you really want to be nervous about the idea of winning, right it's it's about doing the right thing and getting justice and uh but just yeah i was

honestly i was relieved and elated that they saw it for for what it was um what to me was uh with the the jury coming back with the death penalty um that's the you know that that's an interesting thing to to be a part of asking for the death penalty. You guys saw the trial. You probably noticed we didn't go in there in the penalty phase and pound our fists on the table. We were just like, this is the law. Do with it what you will. And, but when the jury came back unanimous on every single aggravating factor that we had listed, that meant a lot to me. just that they they saw it the same way. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. It was powerful. They saw it that way, right? I can't imagine what you felt. Thank you for sharing that. I'm so appreciative of this conversation. And so my last question to you, which is very broad,

but how are you doing now? How are you moving on? Are you? you know um i'm doing well i uh um it's interesting when you do have a case like this how many things you kind of put on hold even though you you you probably do have time to do them um you you a case like this just takes a lot of mental energy uh things like fixing some sprinklers on my lawn that i just let go for a couple years you know um things like that it's it's surprising how much you kind of don't do when you get involved in something like this, that your job normally, and I do

think this job, it's a demanding job, but normally doesn't, you know, require that much mental focus. So I've been doing a lot of catch-up, doing a lot of things, finished reading some books, finished reading great expectations by Charles Dickens today, and I've been reading that for like two years. So, but overall, yeah, I'm doing well. You know, talking with other members of the team. I think people are just really glad that generally speaking, it's over.

You know, the big hall is over. And as hard as it was, as, what's the word, horrible as it was, as it was in a lot of ways. I think everyone who was involved is proud of the work we did. And that's a huge thing. And, you know, I've met a lot of really wonderful people through this case.

People that I wouldn't have met otherwise, some really great guys down in Arizona, some FBI. People from the FBI. So, you know, You know, every experience in life you take out of it what you will. And a lot of, for such a horrible thing, you know, I've taken a lot of really good things out of it as well. You know, I'm glad to have met the people I've met. You know, Larry and Kay, Colby.

They're just a lot of really wonderful people. I think the world of Summer Shifflet, that's someone who I've got, you know, I don't really know her that well, but just a lot of the people we've met, I've just been really impressed with. Thank you. Jill is saying thank you to Rob Wooden Team for never giving up the fight for justice. I'm sure JJ and Tiley will have big hugs for you in heaven to say thank you for loving them enough and to fight for them. And, you know, yeah, I want to say thank you too. this this case consumed me in many ways and it didn't need to

it didn't need to like it did you you know you had a duty but the more I learned about it starting in 2019 when it hit the wire and throughout the more I learned the more passionate I became and John too

but I'm speaking for myself here and I couldn't stop caring or talking to people or interviewing people or trying to understand it. And, you know, in many ways, you know, I'll never, I just, I just want to say thank you, you know, JJ and Tiley, I think, and Tammy, J.J. Tiley and Tammy are very lucky to have had the prosecution team they did. And so I just want to say thank you. Well, thank you. We're, yeah, thank you. You're welcome. I want to say thank you as well, Rob.

You guys did a magnificent job, and we noticed, and we're grateful for that. And this is a case where justice may, you know, justice was at times it seemed like hanging by a threat, but now it's not. So thank you. Yep. Well, thank you. All right. Thanks for having you all. Absolutely.

Thanks for being here. And, yeah, let's meet up for, if you're in Vegas, let's meet up for some barbecue. It's so hot. Yeah, we owe you one. That's true. Yeah. Two plates. Two plates.

All righty. Yeah. Okay. Hey, take care. Bye. All right. Thanks, Rob. I knew about investing, but I really didn't know how to go about it.

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