Hidden True Crime - Lori Vallow Daybell Speaks from Jail one last time | Psychologist Breaks Down the Lies and …

Episode Date: August 2, 2025

Lori Vallow spoke on camera just before she was sentenced in Arizona—and journalist Brianna Whitney was the one asking the questions for the third time. What did Lori reveal? What did she dodge? And what didn’t make the final cut? Subscribe to Briana here: https://youtube.com/@brianawhitneytv?si=hzORBc962k6jnFSr For the full podcast episode with Lori’s interview: Spotify- https://open.spotify.com/episode/1P97OgrLo3AwdzKymnet0N?si=OPWn_X3KQkinE7b8zzUmWA Apple- https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/true-crime-arizona/id1539546360?i=1000719725204 Naked Wine: To get 6 bottles of wine for $39.99, head to ⁠http://NakedWines.com/HIDDEN⁠ and use code HIDDEN for both the code AND PASSWORD About Hidden True Crime: What started as a simple conversation at their dinner table became a captivating podcast. Join the dynamic duo of Dr. John Matthias, a criminal psychologist, and Lauren Matthias, an investigative journalist, as they delve into the psychological facets of unthinkable crimes every week. Their unique perspectives and in-depth analysis offer a fresh take on true crime storytelling. Thank you for your support through sponsorships, subscribing, listening, and becoming a Patreon member at Patreon.com/HiddenTrueCrime Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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through our affiliated medical group, Weight Watchers Clinic. Medications require eligibility and prescription. Individual results may vary. See site for more details. So if she says she has the most empathy for herself, that's not empathy. Hello, hello. We are with once again our dear friend Brianna Whitney with True Crime, Arizona. And Brianna, you have now interviewed the woman that she'll not be named, but I will say one more time, Lori Debel, three times, this last time right before she was sentenced. And it is an interesting interview. Lucky for me, my co-host, who is to your other side is Dr. John Lethias, a criminal and forensic.

No, a forensic, which is a criminal and clinical psychologist. I get that mixed up a lot. Also, my husband, hello, dear. The house was a little messy when I returned, but we'll talk about that later. But thank you for keeping the dishes and laundry going. You did great. I appreciate you so much.

Yeah, the house wasn't a total disaster, right? it was it was okay it was it was okay i mean there were a lot of of polemont cards a lot of Pokemon cards scattered around but we took care of but nonetheless back to uh brianna brianna we're so grateful that you'll spend some time with us because we watched this clip of your interview with lori at i had some interesting things that i noted from it i would love to pick your brain about it i'd love for us both to ask dr john some questions this time was different tell us why it was different Like you weren't in front of her.

Why was that? Why were you on the phone with her? Yeah, a lot of people have asked that question. So she had done one other interview after her convictions, and that reporter had brought M&Ms. And at that point, I don't know if he planned on giving them to her or not. She wanted them. She had requested that, and they were on the table. People, members of her team, kind of tried to get them to her after the interview, and that was not approved.

by the jail, so it was considered jail contraband. So when that happened, kind of like an all hell broke loose type situation with getting in trouble, they took all other in-person interviews off the table and they actually took her tablet away for about a month. So between that time, like right after that second conviction in Brandon Boudreau's case to up until Wednesday, Tuesday night, Wednesday before the sentencing this past Friday, she has had no way to contact anybody. The only way I was in contact was through her team physically going to visit her at the jail. So I knew she was going to get her tablet back. At that point, the hope was to do a video interview.

And that's how we started this interview. And she only had like six to ten minutes of a free call. And then when I and other members of her team tried to put money under her account to finish the video call, it wouldn't let us, which means that at some point, the jail or the jail facility, had blocked access for people to put funds into her account. We could put them into other people's. We could like try, you know, we were looking at that, like what's going on. Never really got an answer as to why it could just be that they were like, we're not letting people put money in your account.

I don't know. And that's why we had to then finish on the phone, which was like an access that we were able to get that way. So it was much different and that's the backstory as to why. Okay. And so it wasn't the M&Ms that were the issue. you, it was smuggling them in and how she did that with somebody else that was allegedly helping her. Because that's what I heard too is that there was somebody else involved in that. Yeah. And so putting money on the account so that she could call you, call you collect or whatever

the case maybe. Is that right? Yeah. It's really weird with the jail system here. You have to put money under certain things to be able to do certain aspects. So like messaging, you can put money to message people, but that doesn't transfer over to video. And so, I mean, obviously people can put onto their accounts for commissary or whatever else. But for this, obviously, we weren't doing that. We were just trying to facilitate the rest of a video call. And that's what seemingly was blocked. We still just don't really know why.

Okay. And the reason, and I also want to ask you about this, this process of interviewing her. You've clearly interviewed her more than anybody else. Is she reaching out to you? Do you reach out to her? She clearly trusts you or what is this? What is this relationship you two have going on? So unlike you, I have not reported on this case from start to finish.

I did some. I jumped in probably around 2021, 2021, is when I started doing more. We had other reporters that were working on it at the time. It kind of depended. COVID was obviously unfolding, and that changed a lot for us as news reporters. So I had not established as much of a report. this case specifically. I cover true crime a lot. That's all I do now, but I had to kind of build up a bit. So I'd only reported on this somewhat, but I had a pretty large portfolio of

other true crime reporting, documentaries, other interviews, things like that. There was an attorney, a local attorney who knew my body of work and emailed me, it was right after, like right after the Dateline interview with Keith Morrison, emailed me and said, hi, I'm familiar with your work. would you like to interview Lori Ball and Davelle? And I thought it was spam. I was like, there's no way this is real. We're talking like date lines, the only one that got her. I'm obviously, I don't have that kind of notoriety.

But I emailed back and I said, hi, and asked more questions, and she was very legit. So it turns out she worked with Lori's paralegal. And that is how I ended up getting that first interview was because she just kind of kind of looked at a totality. Here's somebody who we think would do an interview justice for X, Y, and Z reasons, and let's give it a go. And so because Lori had denied everybody interviews, the only way for me to then go back in and do it is if she put in what's called a tank order or a tank order request to say, I want to talk to Brianna Whitney, whenever.

And so she had to fill that out from the jail, and then they had to coordinate with the sheriff's office who then had to coordinate with me. It is a lengthy process. It is not overnight. And it takes quite a bit of time. And then basically the America County Sheriff's Office, MCSO says, all right, your schedule at this time, you'll have 20 minutes. And this will be how it goes. And so that's how the first one started. I think once Lori felt that I at least would go in there, ask questions and like show her some respect in the way of just letting her. her talk, I guess, somewhat. Then I think she's like, okay, I can express more. I want to share more of my thoughts. And that's how the second one came. And then it was always the plan to finish up

after the last conviction before sentencing on this kind of like tie it up with the bow. What are your thoughts? And this was like something that was encouraged by some people. They wanted to hear a lot more from her. And then a lot of people also were like, why are you giving her a platform. And that was kind of a battling of thoughts that we heard through most of this process. That makes sense. And as Judge Boreski said, and I've even stopped saying her name since saying it once. That's enough. Judge Breske did say that she would fade into obscurity. And I did like that. But she did leave us, though, with some interesting things that she told you. So I did want to ask John about it. And that.

That's where we'll turn to you, babe. You know. Well, before we, before we get into the heart of this, I want to go back to the M&Ms quickly because, you know, I, I'm trying to imagine, like, if somebody wanted, could you put a file in a pack of an M&Ms, right? Or like, what was it they used in Shawshank, like a little pick? Like, right? I don't, like, it's interesting that they can. I guess they consider everything to be contraband that's not approved, right? That's the bottom line.

And obviously she likes M&Ms, but, like, in terms of, like, the pragmatic impact of, like, having a pack of M&Ms, there's probably not a lot you can do with that, especially if the pack is sealed. Right? You can't get a file in there. You know, maybe. Yeah, you could. I guess you, I guess if you. Yeah, maybe. And just the fact that she heard.

could take something in. Did she hide it? I heard she hit it. That's what I've heard. It was like a, the way that I think it was described to me almost like a like a drug deal. Like, okay, we're going to swindle you in this once it's in there. And part of the problem was when we first did our first interview, we went through security, like intense security.

But after that, MCSO was like, we can trust them. So the second interview, we did not go through security. They saw our gear. They knew what we were bringing in. For that other interview, they also didn't go through security, and they would have caught that had they had they gone through security. So that also became like a jail process issue as well. Yeah. And on that note, by the way, I, you know, I'm not trying to be too humorous about it.

But like when I, there's a lot of places where before I can enter, I'll need to declare every single thing. So I'll come in with, you know, a laptop, a digital recorder. like different, you know, testing materials. But I need to write out every single item on a list so that they can double check that I'm bringing that in. Like they're whatever they're approving, they need to see it. They need to categorize it. I think people don't realize sometimes the level of scrutiny that people go through to get into these places, right? And I mean, some of it depends.

Some of it depends on the facility. There are facilities, you know, there are facilities here. in Las Vegas that I've gone to a lot where, you know, there's a certain level of trust at some point when you've, when you've gone someplace for years and they know you, like, they're like, just go ahead, right? But, you know, but before you get to that point, they're checking my briefcase or they're checking everything. And so I think it, yeah, it's, there is like an inventory process. Oh, yeah. And so like, get into the security area, at least at this jail, at Australia jail.

I describe it a lot as like the Tower of Terror Ride at Disneyland and Disney World. You go into a room and then this sliding door shuts and you all just wait there for a second for another metal door to then open and go through. It's very odd. Yeah. That's a good description. I like that, Brianna. That's how I'm out of it every time. Yeah.

What I want to say again, it wasn't necessarily the M&Ms. It was the fact that she was sneaking something in that wasn't approved, which is really actually bad. And I actually think it goes again to like some possible like I want to ask you like anti-social traits. Like she knows the rules. And she was hiding things somewhere without getting approval. That was the issue. It is a big.

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Yeah, like the rule breaking is the most interesting part of that in terms of understanding her. And I mean, technically you could fill a bag of M&Ms with drugs, right? Like anything. I mean, like the shape of an M&M is similar to. to a lot of, you know, a lot of pills that I'm sure a lot of prisoners would be happy to have. So yeah, so it's, there is, um, there is a lot of potential pitfalls in, and what she did. In addition to the fact that she's like trying to skirt the rules, which is bad in and in

itself. Yeah, the scurting of the rule, like that's that, yeah, I think that's the most interesting part of that, like just thinking, you know, I can get away with this. I can get around the rules, right? I mean, yeah. Yeah. The takeaway I've seen too is like the rules, society's rules, earth rules don't apply to her. Right. That's exactly what this is.

That's the tell, right? No rules apply to her. Even when she is in this very strict facility and it's so clear, even for you, Brianna, that you have to follow these strict rules that she would then say, let me see what I can get away with. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right, John. I think that actually brings us into,

because I agree, like this idea that there's, you know, different planes of existence, right? There's the Earth, and then there's the eternal plane. I think you, you, Brianna, you uncovered something really interesting in this interview that, unless we kind of pointed out it wouldn't be super obvious but um you found something that no one else has found with lorry and so most people are going to go oh you mean that she admitting that Alex Cox buried the kids no it was actually so you asked this question about

i think it was fairly soon in the interview but um she She says, Alex buried the children, and she said, no one killed them. She says she wasn't there. But then she says this part. I'm leaving a little bit out here, but mostly this is verbatim. She says, I found them afterwards, meaning the children. I found them afterwards. It was horrible.

It was the worst thing that ever happened in my life. You can never be prepared to lose your children. So she said that and I had to do a double-tick. I'm like, wait a minute. Wait, what? Like, number one, she's telling us that she was in the room with them when they were deceased. Like, I found them afterwards, right? So she was there.

She's saying it was horrible, which she's never said before. It was the worst thing that ever happened in my life. You can never be prepared to lose your children. She's told us the complete opposite of that. She's always told us that she was prepared to lose them because they're prepared. for this post-apocalyptic world, right? And now she's saying, you can't prepare. And it was horrible.

She's actually telling us here that she's, the way I read it, that she's experiencing some negative emotions, some sadness maybe. I don't know. Like, it was horrible. It was the worst thing, right? But that's the exact opposite of what she said on the sentencing hearing day. She said, right? She said, they're in heaven.

It's busy. it's a happy place, right? Like the way she normally describes heaven, it's sort of like an eternal Disneyland or, you know, like the happiest place on Earth or maybe better. Like in Vegas, we have like the Four Seasons Hotel and Spa. It's sort of like the Eternal Four Seasons Hotel and Spa.

You know, you just like go to this happy place forever. Like, and she's, her argument has always been that why wouldn't they want that. Like, her, to me,

her argument has always been, it doesn't really matter how and why you're murdered. What matters is that you're going to this eternal happy place, right? Right. But what she told you, Brianna, was the exact opposite.

This is the first time she's ever shown. So, psychologists, this is kind of a Freudian thing. Freud talked about the mind-beating conflict, that the mind was always kind of at war with itself, right? And there's been a lot of research, by the way, showing that that seems to be the case, that the mind is kind of like this committee of different voices and, you know, roles and personalities.

And this committee kind of fights all the time, right? There's like this constant conflict we have. And this is the only time she's ever said in any interview to anyone, that there might be a slight amount of conflict over the murder of her kids. This is the only time I've ever seen that. So that to me was a brilliant moment, even though this is a short interview, like to get that out of her was really amazing.

So good job. Well, she also contradicted herself in the interview, didn't she? She said, at one moment, this is terrible. It was the worst thing this ever happened to me. And then she said, well, if people understood, they wouldn't even be worried. This is great. This is wonderful. Right. Yeah, it was an odd. It was an odd moment, I thought, as well, you know, she, and this is something that hasn't been published yet, and it will be. But she goes on to tell me that she always knew that JJ and Tiley were going to have their lives cut short, that JJ, she knew this at the moment of adoption, that she had this premonition, and that Tiley were going to have their lives cut short, that JJ, she knew this at the moment of adoption, that she had this premonition and that,

Tiley, God spoke to her when Tiley was 12 and in the hospital for pancreatitis and that she was going to die soon. And so that was weird too because she's almost saying like, yeah, pre-Chad, this is what's going to happen. But we don't know when and it'll be sad when it happens, but also they'll be in a better place. That's the kind of like back and forth that kept happening with her. Yeah, and you mentioned it. She didn't say it. You mentioned it during your interview that she said that they fulfilled their missions, right, on Earth, meaning like their time was up, kind of what you just said. Yeah, like they were always going to die young.

They were here on this earth for this purpose, this time frame. They did what they needed to do. And now they're in this better place is kind of the, yeah, the vibe. I got from her that she felt was her own reality. But then in, yeah, but then it was the worst thing that ever happened. Okay. Well, if you were prepared for it and they fulfilled their missions and they're going to this really happy place, which is what she's always said, how could it have been the worst thing that ever happened?

Right. Like that's a total contradiction. And it shows possibly. People ask this question all the time. Like, does this even bother her? Is there any conflict? Like, which is, you know, again, like the typical model of the mind is that human beings, we have different values and different goals, where we have conflict all the time.

And the more serious the matter is, sometimes the more serious that conflict can be. She doesn't seem to show any of that until here, until this moment. I mean, it's really interesting. Maybe there is like a shred of, of, of conflict or I don't want to say guilt that might be going too far maybe guilt but I mean what's yeah guilt's going too far yeah what are your thoughts what are your thoughts brianna yeah I think guilt's also going too far yeah you know she did she then added further to me that she misses her children every day she has pictures of them up in her cell

that's interesting um yeah you know you know know, she made it a point to say she loves them so much, she knows they're happier, but that losing them, she was not prepared for it. I don't quite know what to make of that entire thing, because it did feel like a lot of contradiction back and forth. There's an interesting moment, and it's going to be in this True Crime, Arizona podcast that we're releasing. But there is a moment when she is talking about loving her kids, and we get into this little back and forth of when when I'm saying, well, people are so invested in this case because they're invested in your kids. And she's like, well, why are people so invested? And I said, well, these are

children. They care about the children. And she goes, but people aren't going to care about my children more than I care about my own children. And I said, I would beg to differ on that a bit because you've been convicted of killing your own children and being okay with that. And the rest of the world who's paying attention to what happened with them, they everyone believes they should be alive and they would be right now. And her response to me was like, well, I don't agree with that and I don't appreciate that back and forth, Brianna, is what basically what she said to me, like angry that I said, people in the public care about her kids more than she does because she was willing to kill them. Well, in fact, in fact, that's one of the reasons this case has sparked so much interest because they want to know.

why would a mother murder her kids? So, I mean, right, it's shows. Why do we have to care more than her? Lori, why do we have to care about your kids more than you? It's so clear we all do. So society had to care about them because you didn't. You know, right? Total lack of self-awareness.

Yeah, just unbelievable. Yeah. And then she goes back to, well, Tiley killed JJ and then killed herself. And that's what perpetuates that whole mess of a lie. Yeah. And then to blame the victim, it's just, it's so outrageous. I care about my children so much.

I'm going to make one of them the, you know, I'm going to blame one of them for this. Yeah. And, you know, obviously the scope of this case too is the whole, you know, who was deemed the light and dark spirit. It seemed everybody who was deemed a dark spirit died. And when I tried to ask her if she still believes in dark and light spirits, she was like, oh, well, it's not an easy answer. And I was like, well, you know, care to elaborate on that.

And she basically was like, it's not easy to explain. I would have to go into like a full religious explanation to, you know, I don't think we have time for that. But it's not an easy. And I said, but this is a yes or no answer. And she said it's not. So I don't know if she's still. I don't know exactly what she still believes on the whole light and dark spirit situation. She says that didn't happen at trial.

I was like, well, it clearly did at least. We do know it. This was mentioned at every trial, but most recently in Charles' trial, we know that they believed that he was a dark spirit named Ned. But it was a bizarre answer there where she wasn't really willing to give a yes or no, but that there was, like, more to it that all of us couldn't understand. Yeah, like, it seems like if you're not giving a hard no to that question, that thing, like, that doesn't seem like a gray area. Right. Like after all she's, after all she's been through, right?

Like that, but it reinforces the point that she really hasn't learned anything. She hasn't changed. She hasn't learned, right? Nothing is different than before. And, you know, interesting because I did this interview on Wednesday and the sentencing was Friday. And I felt like she actually like used our interview as a practice a little bit. for what she was going to say in court on Friday, specifically when it came to empathy. I very specifically asked her, yes, about if she's going to have empathy for Charles and Brandon's

families and the loss. And she's very specific to say, I actually probably have the most empathy because I've suffered these losses too. I mourn with them, these victims. And that was just so hard to comprehend, given that she's convicted of what she is. But I mean, she'll go down saying her and Chad Debo were wrongfully convicted of everything. So I guess she doesn't understand. So if she says she has the most empathy for herself, that's not empathy. Like clearly she doesn't, right? She doesn't understand empathy.

Like empathy is by definition an emotion that's directed towards another human being. So what she's saying is she has pity for herself, I guess. She didn't say exactly what you just said in the inner, like, so she told. Can you reiterate what she just, she told you. Yeah, that was fascinating. She basically, so when I'm asking if she has empathy for these people, she's saying, you know, for the Woodcock and everybody else. Yes, I have empathy for them. I mourn with them.

I mourn these losses as well. And then in her regard, she's basically saying, I might have more empathy than everybody else for them because I've suffered the loss of so many people. Like, I've also suffered this loss. And I said, in following up with that, I said, yeah, well, what do you make of this web of death that surrounds you that follows you? And she goes, yeah, it's so tragic, right? And that's where you're like, oh, my gosh, but you caused this. You're involved in this. And so she really made it as if, like, she too is mourning.

She empathizes with those mourning these losses because she's, also experiencing that loss as well. Right. But so what she, but so she's saying she does, I mean, which she's in typical Lori Daybelt fashion, she's saying, yeah, I've got empathy for all these people's losses, but I've suffered more than them. Right. Hence, I don't have empathy. This is about me. That's what I caught too. That's exactly what I'm gathering. I have empathy. I have more than anyone because I've lost the most. I'm like, that's not, that's not empathy to say I have more than anyone because I lost the most, that's selfish. She can't even like understand what empathy is. Empathy is about what they've lost. Right. It's a and she's literally saying she has empathy

because of what she's lost. Like she really should have said I just I if you really wanted to be correct, she should have said I relate to them or I understand. Right. But instead I think she confused those. But the verbiage that she used in our interview, I feel like she almost copy and pasted into what she said in court on Friday. And when I talked to her, she was unsure if she was going to speak. Of course, I took away. I was like, of course, she's going to talk. Like, we know, Lori.

This is, she loves a platform. And she, this is her last chance. So I wasn't surprised that she talked, but I was, I don't want to say surprised, but just kind of like, huh, when I basically heard what she had told me. And I think, like, I almost think that it gave her the idea in our interview to be like, maybe I should talk about empathy in her sentencing. And that was the one, the only part you even heard in her statement on Friday that had anything to do with the victims and victims family. Yeah, it was like your dress rehearsal.

Basically. Yeah. But I mean, but the I suffer more than you thing is really her saying, I'm the victim. You know, it's her kind of getting into that victim mentality. Just to reiterate what she said, by the way, this. And again, this isn't exact. But she said, I mourn what's. all of you, I feel it too, I acknowledge all of the pain. And this is the part that I talked about.

She said, quote, if I was accountable for these crimes, I would acknowledge it. And I would let you know how sorry I was. I'm like, okay, like if she was accountable, but she wasn't accountable. She doesn't, right? So she doesn't have empathy, because she's not accountable. So, I mean, it's a crazy statement. Right. It's impossible to navigate live with Lori because it's so like this and the contradictions are just constant that to like try to keep moving forward but then press her on those those things. It can be a really weird kind of line to navigate there because she's so. irritating. I mean, like when I, at the end of that interview, I literally got off the phone was like, she's so frustrating. Like she is so frustrating and you try so hard to try to keep that train moving and it's like near impossible. I at least felt like I got more of a look into her and maybe a little bit more information, whether it's true or not. It was the most I had gotten from her, I think, since we first met. But it's really hard to feel like you could accomplish the goals of like truly, truly,

learning more when you're dealing with somebody like that. I did appreciate, too, how you got her so mad or factually to say, well, Alex buried them. I mean, that, that was a solid confession because she's always saying, nobody knows because you weren't there. And the evidence shows us that Alex was the one that did that. I've sat through every trial of hers and Chad Daybells every day. And her whole thing, though, I just want to say about nobody knows because you weren't there. well, the evidence showed us that Alex was the one that buried your children in your,

in Chad Daybill's yard. And so showing once again that we don't have to be there. We can figure this out. I did think that was good that she has implied that before, but she's so openly stated that to you, which is interesting. Yeah, I thought so too. Yeah. Like everybody knows.

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And with Weight Watchers, you can get doctor support and personalized nutrition programs. See if you qualify at Weight Watchers.com. Add not reviewed or approved by Novo Nordisk. I think when you expect someone to make sense, like in normal everyday life, we just expect people to make sense and be logical or somewhat logical. right and when you're with someone who is clearly irrational or they can't really articulate in a logical or at least a common sensical fashion what they mean I think oftentimes to me that indicates that there's some level of mental health

problems you know on the extreme end it would be schizophrenia but it could also be a lot of personality disorders kind of have their own logic right their own kind of weird and consistent way, yeah, fantasy world that they create and they just, they don't deviate from that fantasy world. And I wanted to ask you, like these are, I had a couple of questions for you just for like a while, but two, two questions, two main questions that are pervasive to me. One, do you think she truly believes all of this or has she just gone with it? like her, these religious beliefs and the delusion of whatever this web was.

Do you think she really truly believes it or no? And what would be a diagnosis for her of like, I'm sure there's more than one, but like what is the pervasive psychological diagnosis for Lori? Two great questions. Having watched her for years now, Yeah, I think she definitely believes it. I don't think she could maintain this level of consistency with every interview she's done, right? Every statement she's given.

It's always similar. I mean, you caught a little bit of this, like I said earlier, you kind of caught a little bit of this conflict that she has, I think, about how it was, she said, the worst thing that ever happened. I mean, that's interesting. Like maybe every now and then there's a little glimmer. of like I don't want to say guilt but you know there's there's a little glimmer of something of like concern maybe I don't know what to call it with her you like sadness even I don't even know like maybe right it's so hard to pinpoint like for a normal person we'd be like yeah maybe she feels sad right maybe feels she feels some loss I don't but I don't know I don't think she does like she

sees her, she sees her kids up in, you know, as she points out, like this really happy place. So it's so hard to describe, but I definitely think she's been completely consistent in terms of this belief system. So I think she does believe it. And then, you know, in terms of like a diagnosis, people, a bunch of people have diagnosed her. So, you know, I can't really do that since I haven't that with her, you know, if I went in like you and, you know, spent a few hours and did some testing and talked to her, you know, I'd have a better sense. But people have diagnosed her with delusional disorder and they've diagnosed her with different personality disorders. It's not, like, nobody's been exactly clear about the personality disorders because I think there's probably

multiple. Yeah. So whatever those are, they're probably in cluster B, which would be, you know, histrionic personality disorder or borderline personality disorder or antisocial personality disorder um i think antisocial or narcissistic or narcissistic personality disorder those are the four personality disorder in cluster b so i think we can safely say it's like one of those a couple even possibly like yeah cluster b for sure and that that's what i thought too and dealing with some As someone that's not a psychologist, but I live with one. I think, so I'll chime in. I think it's antisocial.

I think she's a psychopath, just you know. But I think there's more than just a diagnosis that you might be interested in, because I've sat with Brianna outside and we've talked a lot and I've kind of heard your questions. I think the diagnosis isn't necessarily as, so you've got, let's say she's a psychopath, just for sake, okay? Not all psychopaths or serial killers, like people think, you know, she is one, but you know what I mean? It doesn't mean that she set out to be one because she would be more of a mission-driven serial killer. Yeah.

But I think there's some things, John, that you say that do make it interesting to sort of make sense of this. So she's a mission-driven serial killer. And one thing, Brianna, that you asked once was why? would she give up this wonderful life, this handsome, wealthy man, and a large house, if she's so materialistic, this happy, like, all-American family, like the life everybody wants for Chad Daybell and Rexburg, Idaho, without her children. And I think maybe that's a better question to ask John than even, because the diagnosis only takes us so far, but it's still, but why, right? Like you can have another psychopath who wouldn't do the same thing.

Right. Yeah. No, that's definitely fair. I would like to know more on that for sure. Yeah. And so John can't easily diagnose on YouTube anyway because he's never, you know, like, you know, he's a licensed psychologist or he just can't do that. But I think there's a lot you can't answer. Why would, if she is a psychopath and a mission-driven serial killer, why would she do this?

I mean, the simple answer is that Chad offered her more of what she was looking for than Charles. So in a way, I think she felt with Chad she could get some of those things, the same things. But Charles wasn't like elevating her to the level of goddess. Or that's what Chad was like calling her a goddess. Chad's fantasy, let's put it like, let's simple. Chad's fantasy was more compelling than Charles. Charles would go to church with her, but he wasn't like super crazy religious, right? He didn't have these extreme religious beliefs.

So I think in that sense, Lori kind of felt like there was something lacking with Charles, even though they had this great life and like, you know, the kind of, if you think of the American dream is, you know, a big house and like nice cars and stability. And I mean, and all that is really great. But for most people, but Lori wanted more. like Lori saw herself as like a spiritual warrior. That's her term, right? And so if you're going to be a spiritual warrior, like having the big house is not really what you want.

What you want is to have the big house in, you know, after the apocalypse up with, you know, Jesus. And like she has a mansion. You want the McMansion, white tent. You want the White Tent McMansion. Right? On the hill where the gatherers are. Well, not only do you want that.

You want to be, Chad fashioned himself as the God and her, the goddess in the New Jerusalem. So like after the apocalypse, you know, they pictured themselves kind of leading the whole thing. And then Jesus would come visit. He'd be their buddy, right? Like, that was much more compelling to her than Charles. Because Charles was sort of a, you know, he seemed like the type of guy that go to church like every Sunday. And then he just kind of put it away for the way. week go do his job right like but with chat it was like an everyday obsession and so i think

that really appealed to her she wanted someone that was much more invested in and in like the mormon church and religion and then then charles was i think well i don't even know if it's the mormon church because i think that charles was three devout but the way you've explained it to me John is she, her ultimate goal was not that, that, those earthly things. Her ultimate goal was that in heaven. The heaven mattered more to her than this time and now the hereafter. She was, she was very materialistic. But yeah, but at some level, I think she, she'd always,

Colby, you know, told us repeatedly that she was always thinking of the afterlife that she was always talking about mortality, right? Like, which is a weird thing with your kids. If you're, you know, Kobe said since he was really young, all his mom would do was talk about death, right? And when you're three years old, like, you don't want to hear your parents, you know, constantly drone on about how you're going to die. Yeah.

And so, like, that's a weird, it's a weird way to raise your kids with their entire lives ahead of them. One of our earliest podcast episodes, our first season, beyond the veil. This was probably recorded in 2020, I think. So really earlier, maybe 2021. But a testimony, it's a testimony,

a speech of Lori came out at her friend, Melanie Gibbs home. And it's, it's famous for her saying she has a murderous heart, or she doesn't have a murderous heart. But, John noted something else in that testimony, what she said, that no, the love of Jesus watching over her is a love unlike anything she has ever felt, that it is better than anything in this

world. And all she wants is the love of Jesus, to have the love of Jesus wash over her. And John, you pointed out just how important that was that that explains who she is. And maybe that's a good way to explain this. Well, and she also said something else fascinating in that same speech. She said that when you take in that love or when you experience that love of Jesus, this is the term she used. You stretch time.

I thought that was fascinating. She said, and she said it multiple times. She reiterated that. You stretch time. So time is eternal. It's endless. And I think that's really important. important and understand Lenorey because that's that's part of it like I think people forget you know

she's she's getting older you know her physical looks are like everyone's you know over time they they were deteriorating like she's going through I think probably a bit of a midlife crisis she'd been married a child for many years and she's worried about her mortality like this as Colby pointed out she's had this obsession with the apocalypse and death for years and years since Colby was very young. And so I think she she sees this as a way stretching time means you live forever. Yeah, she talks a long about eternal. Yeah. A word she uses a lot. Exactly. And so I think part of this is related to that, that she's trying to figure out how to stretch time forever, endlessly. So that, you know, she's so that her. So that her,

her presence and her, you know, her charm and her presence will go on forever, right? We don't want to do without that. No, heaven about it. So do you think she would have had the propensity to do this with another influence? If it wasn't Chad Daybell, was this always going to be how she ended up with someone other than Charles? that would lead her to whatever this has become? Yeah, that's an interesting question. Yeah, that's a really interesting.

You asked her that, by the way. I know that you asked her that, Brianna. I don't think it would have been expressed in the same way. I think that the combination of Chad and Lori was really combustible. And that, because you got to remember, Chad's a big part of that equation. Huge. Chad doesn't want these kids around because he doesn't want to deal with those.

Let's be honest. Like he, he sees these kids as obstacles to his relationship with his goddess. Yeah. He doesn't want to spend time with them. He doesn't want to spend money on them. He doesn't want to invest in them. Right.

That's why they went to Hawaii without the kids. Like, talk about, like, self-serving and selfish. They're like, you know, I don't want these nitpicking kids to bother me when I'm on the beach with you. Right. Like, so part of this is definitely, Chad. you know, Chad entering the equation and not wanting to deal with her kids, not wanting to invest in her kids. And I think, so I think Chad actually makes the request probably to. Chad Daybel was stating, yes, oh, sorry, that was important what you just said, and I interrupted you.

Will you say that you believe that Chad Daybell? He made the request to murder the children and Lori complied essentially, I think is what happened. I agree with that. I think it was Chad's decision. Chad Daybell, before he ever met Lori, was stating that Tammy Daybell was going to die young and that he had a mission and he was going to lead and the $144,000. And while Lori is a much more intriguing person to follow than Chad because she's a mother. And she, as you point out, had everything going for her.

she's much more intriguing, you know what I mean, to try to understand. But I think, as John said in our very first episode ever, in order to understand Lori, you have to understand chat. And it's unfortunate that they met because, you know, they were, they were a really, really bad pair. But Chad Daybell had these plans before he met her. And this was ultimately his belief system that. he was sharing with her. And another thing John has pointed out too is, yeah, it was almost like

he wanted to know that he, how far would this woman go for him? And clearly she would do anything. Okay, confession time. I used to be that person standing in the wine aisle at the grocery store completely overwhelmed, picking bottles based on how pretty the label looked. Then I found naked Wines. And now I get incredible bottles delivered straight to my door, and I actually look like I know what I'm doing. This podcast is sponsored by Naked Wines, a wine club that hooks you up with world-class wines from independent winemakers without the giant price tag. I recently opened a bottle of rosé from my last Naked Wines box, and it was Chef's Kiss. They cut out the middlemen so you get amazing wine at up to 60% less than store prices. It's like insider access to the wine world, and yes, I'm

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And what was your take then on why Lori and not Tammy? Why, Laura and not Tammy Daybell? I don't think Tammy Debo. I think that I don't think Tammy Daybell was going for that. I don't think Tammy wasn't going to these preparing people conferences. We also know that Chad Daybell was having affairs before he met Lori, Julie Roe, He had past wives, or he was married to other women in past lives. This was not the first time he had that pickup line.

He had pitched this idea to Julie Rowe that they would be the couple to lead the gatherers and the 144. And so there's a lot of history with Chad doing this. And I think that to Chad, he felt, he like most people that want most people that head into affairs think their you know spouse maybe is comfort and and not you know the goddess that he's destined to uh you know had the 144,000 into the new Jerusalem. My my personal opinion on Lori too is that she did not physically kill any of them she just orchestrated it all I'm curious if you both think that as well and also John if based on her delusion and her thinking if she had the physical capacity

to kill her own kids and to kill multiple people in this like to physically be the one to do it could she have brought herself to that level yeah it's such a tough question um i don't think that she probably was involved in the actual murders but i think she could be capable of it. I think she I mean, she could have been, right? Like the manner of death, you know,

I don't know. Like it's do I see her shooting someone or stabbing someone? No, probably not. But can I see her like, you know, strangling someone or suffocating someone or placing

the bag over them or giving them pills, like poisoning them? Yes. Poisoning for sure. That was one that I would have gone with if I thought, if there was any way that she killed, she physically did it. For whatever reason in my mind, poisoning would be like the way that I would think. I even have a hard time believing she would physically suffocate JJ. Like, I even have a hard time thinking she would be the one to do that. even though she's evil and all those things. For whatever reason in my mind,

I can't seem to equate those two into she did that. The only way I could see that is if Chad really pressured her to do something, like to do it, to commit the actual murders to prove her love to him or something like that. Right? It would have to be some type of peer pressure or some type of peer pressure or some type of pressure from Chad to like because then he's I mean that that works for Chad at so many levels right like he basically has her like doing his bidding and he's got that over her the rest of her life right like I mean in Chad's mind's eye like I think he too thinks that like if he's not actually committing the

murder he's not doing it he's not he's not murdering anyone I think they both think that but I think for Chad I think Chad feels like if he can get her to do it then he knows for sure that she'll never leave him right like that's that's a commitment that you know that's a commitment that's hard to break right that's a bond that's hard to to to break so i if there if she was involved i think it would involve something like that interesting Lauren what's your take I don't think she did it but i agree with uh john she's capable of it she's very capable of it I don't believe she feels empathy. I don't believe she feels remorse. I don't believe she feels other people's pain. I think she's so self-centered and I think she likes control over people. I think she likes

orchestrating things. I think that she, I believe a lot that she, I believe that she made highly sick growing up. I believe that she is probably responsible for much of Tiley's pain. I think that she is very capable, which is why she said, sure, let's do this, Chad, whatever you say, because she's not the type of mother that would protect her children. So she's absolutely capable of that act. Like Munchaus me by proxy? We have a whole video on why we think that. And we have some evidence that we lay out. she tried to kill Larry Woodcock.

Yeah, we have that too. Larry telling us a story of having her fruit salad in Hawaii. That's what he meant during his sentencing, when he said, you tried to kill me, Lori. He shared a story with only us, a hidden true crime,

where he believes that Lori poisoned him with fruit salad, and he almost died on an airplane after leaving Hawaii. She has poisoned Charles with, you know, Vannex and multiple people have shared that she would give JJ Benadryl as well as her other, her stepchildren and others. There is a diagnosis of Moonschhaven by proxy when it comes to stepchildren and a rash. So we lay out, in fact, we lay out all of the reasons we suspect Moonshaelan by proxy in video and I will send that. Yes, please do. Yeah.

Interesting. She's very capable. It's so complicated. It's really hard to like fully understand. But when we kind of lay it out like this, it makes sense. I mean, it all it all makes sense. Yeah. But this is also the reason we can't stop talking about her, right?

Because it's beyond human comprehension. It is so hard. And it's just like you want to make sense of it to help understand this. world we live in. It just, you can't fathom that, right? Which is why we've been talking about for six years. But again, I love what Judge Bresti said. She will fade into obscurity. She will, but I think she will be talked about forever when it comes to the unthinkable and how she could commit such heinous acts and to stand by them or deny them. issues.

Yeah, Judge, I'm going to I'm going to repeat the judge. This is what Judge Braski said. He said, the media request will lessen over time and you'll fade into obscurity. I think that's true. She claims she's writing a book and that, you know, she's going to

talk about it more there, but I mean, do you think she'll ever, even if she writes a book, do you think she'll even say come to light on what really happened? I, I, No. Yeah. No.

No. It's going to be more nonsense. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I don't think she'll ever admit it either.

Her entire belief system and what matters to her most, which is this eternal immortal life, she cannot have it if she admits to any wrongdoing. Yeah. Right. Right. Because this is all for the better and they're in a better place and this is what had to happen. Yeah. That's a great point. Yeah, but as Judge Bressy also schooled her on her scriptures, he said, trust me, prisoners don't go free.

It means you're going to die behind bars. Yeah, she's not going anywhere, but I'm happy at least to be done with her as much as I as a journalist and just as a person who is curious wants to learn as much as possible. I'm so over it. And I'm so over trying to navigate those interviews with her because it's not fun in that moment. It's it's tense. And I've learned as much as I think I'm possibly going to learn from her. And now I agree with Breske, fade into obscurity, move forward. And that's kind of kind of where I fall.

I'm just happy to be done. I'm sure you guys are too. I mean, you guys have worked on this longer than I have. You've done an excellent job. John and I both think you've done an excellent job. As you said, you weren't expecting this chore to fall into your lap. But there are, as much as we want to say, look the other way and, you know, we want to forget about her. We like you, Brianna, are curious and we want to understand and we want to make sense of the unthinkable.

And because if there is another Lori Vallow, Davelle, which there was recently, you know, you can look at the Ruby, Frankie, Jody Hilderrant case to say, oh, yeah. Here's another one. And, you know, it matters to try to understand. And so you took this unexpected responsibility while, and you did a good job. And I know that you have another podcast coming up about your interviews with her. Do you want to share a little bit about that? Yeah. Yeah.

So we're working on it. It's going to come out tomorrow. I host the True Crime, Arizona podcast. That's our whole franchise on TV and on the podcast. podcast too. And so tomorrow we'll have most of our interview with Lori before the sentencing and then we'll also go into what happened in sentencing, major moments from everybody who spoke at the sentencing hearing. We just kind of finish it out with Kay and Jerry outside. And so it really leads up like this podcast is great because you get like the days leading

up interviewing Lori, kind of knowing what she said going in and then kind of my takeaway from everything that happened during the sentencing and finishing out their story and finishing strong with those who were affected most. So I think it gives more insight. If people saw the interview, the part of it, at least that aired on television, this will be more of an opportunity to hear more of it kind of in that raw form. Thank you. And by tomorrow, we might post this tonight. We might post this tomorrow. So tomorrow would be Tuesday. Yeah, Tuesday afternoon evening is when this will come out. So true crime, Arizona, you can find it. And I guess, I guess after interviewing her three times, I feel like in the words of Lori, I fulfilled my mission. Like, where this is I did for the best I could with the opportunity that was there. And I'm done. Yeah. Right. And Judge Russ even said that, you know, are you done? In fact, I have that. I got to show you my pin. I love that you just use the words, I'm done because, oh, my pin fall off.

But I have a Judge Breski pin that says, are you done? And so we are done. We are done. But that was my other favorite part too in the sentencing when she was like, he's like anything else. And she's like, nope. I'm good. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you. Thank you so much. So we will put a link to your podcast. in the description of this video as well as in pinned comments or this episode. If you're listening on Podcast Forum, we will have a link to Brianna's podcast as soon as this is up. So it'll be probably coming out the day of this episode or the next day, depending when we post this.

And if it's Tuesday, look for your podcast. And yeah, thank you. And where can people find it, though? Just one more time. Yeah, True Crime, Arizona, Apple, Spotify, Google, really all of your classic. platforms you can find it to download. And also just want to say, too, it's been just a joy to be able to meet you, Lauren, to spend time with you and grace and behind the scenes to get to know you guys through this. That's kind of a silver lining in these crazy trials is like the people

that you meet. And I appreciate all the work you guys have done on this case and have learned a lot from both of you as well. So I just want to say I appreciate it. And I love that we get to have a friendship now moving forward in this crazy industry as well. Yeah. Crazy is the right word, but not as crazy as you know who. All right. Okay. Thank you, Brianna. Have a great day and we'll talk soon again. Sounds good. Thank you. Bye-bye. Bye. Starting a business can seem like a daunting task unless you have a partner like Shopify. They have the tools you need to start and grow your business. From designing a website to marketing to selling and beyond, Shopify can help with everything you need. There's a reason millions of companies like Mattel, Heinz, and all birds continue to trust and use them.

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