Hidden True Crime - LORI VALLOW DAYBELL TRIAL RECAP DAY 4 | Lori Cross-Exams Adam Cox and Kay Woodcock

Episode Date: April 11, 2025

Today was a massive day in court...Multiple big witnesses, fiery cross exams, & more evidence. Lauren breaks it all down for you in this episode. MERCH: bonfire.com/store/hidden-true-crime-limited-merch/ Get the sleep you deserve with up to 35% off Dream. Just click https://shopbeam.com/hiddentruecrime and use code TRUECRIME at checkout. About Hidden True Crime: What started as a simple conversation at their dinner table became a captivating podcast. Join the dynamic duo of Dr. John Matthias, a criminal psychologist, and Lauren Matthias, an investigative journalist, as they delve into the psychological facets of unthinkable crimes every week. Their unique perspectives and in-depth analysis offer a fresh take on true crime storytelling. Thank you for your support through sponsorships, subscribing, listening, and becoming a Patreon member at Patreon.com/HiddenTrueCrime Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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We're going to go through it all. We're going to hear these cross exams. We're going to hear these mic drop moments. So let me set the stage. We entered the courtroom around 10 a.m. I actually was able to snag my favorite seat to be able to watch Lori. We're in a certain row as media, and I have finally figured it out. This is the seat I want if I get in line in time, and I got it today.

Colby Ryan, Lori's only surviving child, was in the courtroom today for the first time. He was sitting next to Kay Woodcock and a victim's advocate, as well as Jerry Vallow, Charles's brother, and Kay Charles's sister were both there, and Megan Connor, Lori's cousin. The first witness of the day was Lori's brother, Adam Cox, and, well, let's get to it. Adam first started explaining the family dynamics that he grew up in Southern California with his siblings, Stacey, Alex, Lori, and Summer. Adam currently lives in Arizona and works as a pickleball instructor, but previously lived in Kansas and was a morning radio show host for years, actually. Prosecutor Trina transitioned into asking Adam about these family dynamics.

And Adam testified that he and Alex, his older brother, were somewhat close. And growing up, Alex and Lori, they too had this sort of typical brother-sister relationship. But the last four or five years prior to 2019, Alex and Lori got much closer. And as he stated, oddly close, the last year of Alex's. life. Charles and Alex had a typical brother-in-law relationship, but never really did anything together, just the two of them. And however, the family was known to do big get-togethers for holidays and birthday parties. So he sort of explained it as this just average family dynamics, really, is what I took from this. He had an average relationship with Alex. Lori had an average relationship

with Alex, although later on they became oddly close. Next, prosecutor Trina asked Adam about being a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And Adam said that he was indeed a member and that his older brother Alex was excommunicated. It had actually been excommunicated on two different occasions as an adult. And at the time of 2019, Charles's death, he was still excommunicated. And due to this excommunication, Alex was unable to serve in church or visit the LDS Temple and to explain excommunication a little bit more. What it is is essentially losing your membership because of sinning or a problem or not following

the laws or doctrine of the LDS church. So before we continue, a quick word from our incredible sponsor who I cannot do trial reporting without my nightly dream drink covering trial is a hustle to say the least. it's hard. It is hard work, guys. I mean, I love it, but it is hard. And I want, it's something that I want to do well. So I could not do it unless I sleep at night. And I've, I've talked about my anxiety and insomnia before. And it probably, not probably, definitely increases during trials. And the biggest issue I have with over-the-counter sleep aids is that I continue to feel grogging in the morning. and I sort of sleepy all day, but that doesn't happen with dream. I actually feel awake and rested in the morning.

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And, okay, last but not least. before we jump back into Adam's testimony, which is a very, very important testimony, you all asked yesterday and we have delivered. Don't flatter yourself. Limited trial merch has been made. You can find that in the description of this episode. I love it. Thank you. Thank you, everyone, for that idea. So head over and get your Nancy Joe inspired merch. So now let's jump back into Adam Cox's testimony. Adam just explained that his older brother, Alex Cox, had been excommunicated from the church and the Cox family loved to have big get-togethers.

That was where we were. So Adam then explained that he and Charles texted and talked on the phone. And at some point, his brother-in-law Charles told him that he and Lori were having marital problems. And she was developing beliefs that branched outside of the LDS religion. and these beliefs included believing that she was translated from a mortal to immortal human being and in a celestial state. Lori was in a celestial state of becoming translated and immortal. Well, what else did Lori believe? She also believed that she had more authority than the

priesthood authority, and the priesthood authority is traditionally held by LDS men. They are the ones who hold the priesthood. But Lori believed that she was in a state above that. And, you know, I have to be honest here, I can't necessarily fault. Lori for that one, ladies, none of you are in a state below any authority only held by men, I'll say. But I digress. Adam told Lori that he didn't know if she was crazy, but he didn't think what Lori was saying was real, almost. And after he sort of said this to Lori, like he said this to his sister, look, this is weird. These are some strange beliefs. Lori, stopped talking to him. And then when he tried to tell the rest of the family the things Lori was

saying and saying, guys, this is strange. This is weird. Some believe that she was just in a delusion that would actually go away on its own, told him to calm down. And then in the end, they all eventually cut Adam off as well. At the end of June in 2019, Charles forwarded Adam some emails that led him to believe that Lori was having this affair with Chad. Daybao. So let's listen here to those clips. At the end of June of 2019, do you recall Charles sending you some emails that were purportedly written by him asking Chad Daybale to come out to Arizona and write a book for him? Yes. And did you, without going into it, did you review that email? Yes.

Did you know Charles what he had done in his life prior to selling insurance? Yeah, I know that he played minor league baseball. And in this email was the person pretending to be Charles asking about writing a book about his career? Yes. Was that something you knew Charles was not interested in? No, he's not or wasn't. After you saw those emails that Charles had forwarded you to you or someone was reaching out to Chad, were they inviting Chad out to Arizona?

Yes. After reading that and getting that forward and talking with Charles, did you believe that Lori was having an affair with Chad Daybill? Yes. Did you and Charles spend time talking about that? Yes. Was he kind of, I guess, in a tailspin, I'm not sure the best words to say from learning that? Yeah, he seemed a little desperate.

Did Charles have some idea on how he thought he might be able to get Lori back into the LDS faith? Yes. What did you understand that to be? Charles just thought that Lori was going overboard and that she was going to the temple like five times a week. And that's not normal in our religion and that she was going a little off the wall. So he figured that if she got her temple recommend taken away from her, that she would come back to normal who she was before she started in all this things that she was believing. Next, they discussed Adam and Charles coming up with a plan to have an intervention for Lori.

Adam testified that Charles felt desperate because no one in Adam or Lori's family would talk to Charles about what was going on with Lori. It was just maddening. And Charles thought that by filming maybe some of the crazy things that Lori was saying and showing it to their state president, who's a LDS church leader, that they could get her temple recommend taken away, and then that would possibly get Lori to return to the traditional, more mainstream LDS beliefs because she loved going to the temple. She was going like five times a week. That's a lot for those that are in the LDS faith. So, hey, if you get her temple

recommend taking away, maybe she'll straighten up. That was their idea, their intervention idea. Again, the state president is a leader over several wards or congregations within a specific area. So it's a rather high up leader. Charles asked, Adam to help him with the intervention, and Charles offered to purchase Adam's flight to Arizona. After confirming the flight, Adam reached out to his older brother, Alex, to see if he could stay with him during this visit, who, and Alex initially did say, yeah, sure, that's what they did. In the Cox family, they stayed with each other when they flew into town. But as we know, Alex never responded once Adam actually got into town.

Adam thought that his brother ghosting him was very strange and bizarre. And he ended up staying instead at their parents' house. Next, Trina entered in exhibits of text messages between Adam and Charles, where they discussed different ideas for the intervention. In the messages, it was clear that Charles was nervous about how Lori would respond to them, trying to get her temple recommend taken away. They were nervous. And they even mentioned that Charles even mentioned that he still loved Lori, but that he felt like she might be gone, quote, forever.

So on July 11th, that was the day that Charles was shot and killed. On July 11th, Adam knew that Charles was supposed to go and pick JJ up for school. That morning, Adam got a text from Charles saying that Alex was at Lori's house. And so Adam immediately, though, thought something weird was going on. Because remember, Adam couldn't even get a hold of his older brother, Alex, after Alex said that Adam could stay there, right? And so all of a sudden, Charles is arriving that morning to pick JJ up from school. They see Alex's car in Lori's driveway early, early in the morning. So again, Adam immediately thought that something weird was going on and felt concerned and suspicious that Alex was over at Lori's after blowing off their plans.

He replied to Charles in text, quote, they are planning something. end quote, and said that he was going to, quote, put the pressure on to see if he will come get me and see what he says, end quote. Basically, just trying to see if Alex would text him back or not. And Adam testified that Alex did not reply to that message either. And the last message that Adam sent to his brother-in-law Charles about going to see the state president, well, he later learned that was never read until later in the after. afternoon and not by Charles. At no point over the next two days did anyone inform Adam that Charles had been shot. A few days later, Adam met up with a friend named Derek and told him that he thought

it was fishy that he hadn't heard from Charles. After all, Charles had flown him to Arizona for this intervention, yet their last text remained Charles in the driveway to pick up JJ for school. He had not heard from him. Adam didn't. bring this up to anyone else in the family because he wasn't sure if the intervention plan that he and Charles were brewing to get up together was still on. And he also knew that they might tell his sister, Lori. Well, that is when Eric decided to Google the name Charles Valo and Adam then learned for the very first time what had happened to his brother-in-law. And next, Trina asked Adam to recount the story of Nephi. And I have explained the story of Nephi from the

Book of Mormon here before, but let's listen to Adam explain the story. Can you tell us about the story of Nephi? Nephi? Well, Nephi was a prophet in the book of Mormon. It's the first chapter. He was a prophet, very humble and faithful servant of the Lord. And ironically enough, his brothers tried to kill him at one point. But he actually ended up going to Jerusalem to get these plates back. And he was runoff, came back, and then went back again because the Lord asked him to. And when he did, the King Laban, who was actually a wicked king, was laying on the ground drunk in front of him. And Nephi was told to kill Laban.

Who was he told by? The spirit or, yeah, God. So God was using a Holy Spirit to tell him to kill, Yes. Yes, he did. Yes, he did. Was that something he anguished over? Yes.

But ultimately, it was a justified killing. Yes. So was the concept that it was better for Nephi to kill this one evil man and sort of benefit the nation and his descendants? Yes. Were you aware that Charles, that your sister, had told people that Charles was possessed by evil spirits? Yes. Adam testified that he knew that Lori believed that Charles was dark and had evil spirits,

or a evil spirit. Trina, prosecutor Trina, then transitioned into discussing what happened after Adam found out that Charles was dead, which we will now listen to ourselves here. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers, spammers, even stalkers. It's why you get endless robocalls and why ads seem to follow you everywhere.

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Protect yourself now atora.com slash remove. You told us that your friend had Googled and learned that Charles was killed. Did you know at that time it was by your brother Alex? That's what the article said. So yes, he told me that. What did you do after you learned that? Freaked out for a little bit, cried, didn't know what to do. Thought my world was coming apart.

Then I got angry a little bit and then called my, I think the first thing I did us called Kay, who's Charles's sister and asked her, because she's the only one that I felt safe calling after knowing my family was involved in this or thinking of this, that I asked her if she knew that Charles was dead. And she said she just learned of it too. Did you learn from your friend when, because it's now the 13th when you learned this, right? Yes. Did you learn when that happened?

Yes, I did. So you knew on that Saturday the 13th that Charles had been killed that morning? Yes. Of July 11th. Yes. Did you ever come back to Phoenix and confront anyone in your family about this or talk to them about it? Yes. after I talked to Kay, then I called my mom and asked her if she knew that Charles is dead.

And she said, yes. And I said, what's going on? And she said, you tell me what's going on. And at that point, I thought that was bizarre that she would say that. So I said, well, we need to sit down and talk. And she said, yes, we do. And so me and Zach got in the car and drove back to Phoenix. Did you go to your mom's house?

Yes, I did. Did that conversation go well? No. Did this create a break in your relationship with your mom? Yes. Did you stick up for Charles? Yes. Did sticking up for Charles create issues between you and most of your family?

Yes. Did you continue to stick up for Charles, even with that happening? Yes. After you had that argument with your mom, what did you do? Me and Zach left her house and we were staying at Summer's house, my sister, who was away on vacation, and we were staying at her house. And we went back to her house. We were watching her dog. You were supposed to leave the next morning Sunday to go back to Wichita. Did you return back home? Yes, we did.

Did your son go with you this time? Yes, he did. After this whole incident happened, did you not talk with your family for a long time? Yes. Did it cause a lot of friction in your family? Yes. Have you started to try to talk with your family some? Yes.

I want to point out one thing that was said there, that it was a moment in court when I looked around wondering if anybody else heard what I had just. heard and you heard it there. Adam actually states that after he learned about Charles's death, shooting death, he called Kay because after he realized his family might be involved in this, Kay was the only one he felt safe with. It was sort of a moment that it felt like Adam was implicating his whole Cox family. I don't know what that meant and if he meant to say that, but it was certainly an interesting moment. Next, Lori was up for cross-examination, and let me just say that Adam could not hide

what I felt was sort of a level of disgust. I realize this is his opinion, but I could see sort of this level of disgust he seemed to have for his sister. It was written all over his face, and the answers he gave her were very short and to the point. And Lori's questions, well, why don't, you just listen. We are going to listen to this entire cross-exam, cross-examination ourselves,

because it was like a Thanksgiving dinner gone wrong plus murder. Take a listen to this. Mr. Cox, how long has it been since we've seen each other in person? Don't know. When was the last time you saw me? I don't recall. So has it been a year? Two years, three years, five years, six years, seven years, eight years? Something. Okay.

So you have no idea. Nope. You have no idea in the last time you saw me in person? I don't know the year or how many years it's been. Okay. So did you see me at Colby's wedding in January 2018? No, I was not there. You didn't come to Colby's wedding?

No, I did not. So did you see me sometime that year at my house? Possibly? Where Colby got married, that house. I did see you at that house, yes. At least one time. Yes. So possibly in 2018.

Yes. And when was the last time we had any communications? The last time I remember our communications was you and I were speaking in the kitchen. When the family was over. Okay. So you think that was that time in 2018? I think so. Okay.

And were we eating my green chili chicken and jaladas? Don't not remember that. You do not remember that? Nope. Is that why I made every time we had a family get together, which was like 10 times a year? I don't remember that. Okay. And when was the last time that we had a phone call or text message?

I have no idea. Could it possibly be around that exact same time? Possibly. Okay. So that was possibly in early 2018? Yes. Who do you think initiated the final communication in our relationship? Who concluded it?

Yeah. I don't know. So right now it's 2025. Is that correct? Yes. And so we haven't spoken in about eight years. Would that be correct? Probably seven or eight years. Okay. So would you say up into that point that we, how often would we communicate before that?

Before what? Before 2018? Probably on a regular basis, once a month, twice a month, three times a month. Like a call or a text message? Yes. Just keeping in touch? Yes. You know of us living in Hawaii, and you were living in Kansas at the time? Yes.

And in your career, you lived in lots of different places. Is that correct? Yes. Austin? Yes. Dallas? Yes. New York?

Yes. Wichita? Yes. Sacramento? Yes. Do you miss anything? Others. And I was in.

Texas? Yes. Arizona? Yes. Hawaii? Yes. So would you say that we were not physically close during the past 20 years? Yes, I would say that. So our communication would be solely family get-togethers, occasional text messages.

Is that correct? And phone calls, yes. Okay. So Mr. Cox, did you see? see or hear or personally witness me conspire with my brother Alex Cox to murder my husband Charles Vallow? Repeat that again. Okay.

Did you see with your eyes or hear with your ears or personally witness me conspire with my brother Alex Cox to murder my husband Charles Vallow? No. Thank you. No more questions. don't flatter yourself lorry your chicken green chili cheese enchiladas whatever they are they are not that memorable according to her brother and megan connor actually mentioned to me that they're actually a little bit bland but i digress once again so there was a brief redirect in which trina asked adam to clarify the

last time he and lorry spoke he testified that they actually had very little communication after he said that he didn't believe that her new beliefs were true, and he cut off all communication once he found out that Charles was killed. He also explained that even though he wasn't there on the day of the murder, he found it odd that Alex was there when they originally had plans. Again, it was certainly odd. He also stood out to him, it also stood out to him, excuse me, that Alex would bring a dangerous gun with him with extramat,

magazines over to his sister's house considering JJ who has autism, who is known to run around, you know, as Larry Wickcock says, he has two speeds, you know, fast, you know, fast straight ahead or sleeping. So JJ's running around and he has a gun with extra magazines at his sister's house. After everything happened, Adam told his family that he believed Alex and Lori conspired to kill Charles. Let's take a listen. When you were talking to your family after this happened, did you actually tell them that you believed that Lori and Alex had conspired to kill Charles? Yes. Why was that?

Because Lori had told people that Charles was no longer living, that some guy named Ned was inside of his body, that there was a zombie living inside of him. and Alex didn't respond to any of my text messages when I was supposed to be with him. And he was at that house that morning. Lori talking crazy about how she's a translated being. All these things all added up into that moment and that morning. Once I found out on Saturday that Charles was shot and killed, no doubt on my mind that they killed him. That's a feeling that I got.

And you told your family that. Yes. No other questions. Wow. Wow. The next witness on the stand was Lori's former friend Serena Sharp. Serena is somebody we haven't heard from until today. We do have some interviews, audio interviews with her that we have listened to that were released in evidence dumps or FOIA documents when they were released. But this is the first time we have heard from her in person and watched her take the stand. Serena testified that she was raised. raised in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or the LDS Church, and she attended two preparing a people conferences. These conferences were to help get people prepared for emergencies and the second coming of the Lord. And I have talked about the preparing people conferences before. Since Chad and Lori's arrest, it has been rebranded. It is run by Mike and Nancy James, and they have now rebranded it to Latter-day Media. But what they do is they teach a

visions and having your own visions and sort of preparing for these last days and the calamities and everything. And so, so anyway, she was attending these preparing a people, conferences with like-minded, like-minded LDS people interested in preparing and interested in having these visions of Christ. And one of these conferences was in Arizona in November of 2018. Marina was originally supposed to stay at her friend Melanie Gibbs' house, but after Melanie picked her up from the airport, she said that there was a change of plans and that they were going to stay at Lori's house

with other people attending the conference because, well, Lori's family was out of town. And this was actually Serena's first time meeting Lori and the rest of this group of girls that she soon became close to. And who else was there? Well, Chad Daybao. Serena testified that she knew Chad and Lori were both married and remember that her husband was out of town. But she wasn't aware that they were having an affair at the time.

Going forward, though, that she did keep in contact with Chad and Lori. And she was actually invited back. She made such an impression on Chad and Lori that she was invited back to Arizona for a girls weekend in March of 2019. Now, that weekend, the women's... stayed at Zulema Pestanis's house, who Serena actually became friends with during that first conference as well. And Serena testified that during this time, Lori began telling her about some beliefs that went against her traditional LES teachings. And these, according to Serena, were Lori not needing to repent, not confessing to your sins and to the Lord and asking for

forgiveness. In fact, Serena originally told police during her interview that Chad and Lori were trying to get the entire group to believe that all of them no longer needed to repent. It's an odd thing, by the way, I just want to say to try to convince an entire group of unless you're needing them to sin if you think about it. Let's convince this group of women here that they no longer need to repent. Why does that matter so we can get them to sin? I mean, that's, it's just right. What is one plus one? Serena testified that Lori believed that people were assigned levels of dark and light and referred

to herself as a translated being or filled with more light, more knowledge, and becoming closer to God than the average person, even the average LDS member. Serena recalled Lori bringing up the concept of casting out evil spirits and requested that the group help cast out evil spirits from Charles. Laurie claimed that he was possessed by a spirit, a spirit named Ned. That's the name, Ned. And Ned had taken over Charles's body and he was, Charles was no longer himself. Well, Serena said Lori brought up the concept of zombies as well.

By the way, this is two for two. Adam said that Lori was believing in zombies and Serena is now saying that Lori brought up the concept of zombies. This is important because according to Laura, she's never brought it up. And she told this to Colby, her only surviving son on his YouTube channel, Colby J. Ryan, that she's never mentioned zombies. Well, two for two today have said that Lori talked about zombies. So Serena said that Lori brought up the concept of zombies as well, which were people whose bodies were possessed by an evil spirit. And all of this was indeed very odd to

Serena. But when she questioned Lori about these things, Serena quickly noticed that she started being treated differently once she brought up her concerns. Tell me you're in a cult without telling me you're in a cult. Well, you start questioning things. You're treated differently. And after the girl's weekend, Lori started pulling away and limiting contact with Serena. The next time she saw her was after Charles was killed. And at that point, Serena did not know the details of what happened, but the group went over to support Lori after losing her husband. Serena described Lori's demeanor as stoic, but doesn't recall Lori mourning or even crying. And she never saw Lori again after that. And she was not even aware

according to Serena that Lori had married Chad Daybell and then moved out of the state of Arizona and to Idaho. And then it was time for Lori. to cross-examine Serena. Get your popcorn. Listen to this. Zootopia 2 has come home to Disney Plus.

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We're going to add. Zootopia 2, now available on Disney Plus rated PG. Ms. Sharp, did you take an oath when you came into this courtroom today? Yes, I did. Did you raise your hand? Yes, I did. Did you swear to tell the truth? Yes, I did.

The whole truth? Yes. Nothing by the truth? Yes. So help you, who? God. So can we agree that this court acknowledges that your testimony here today will be accountable to God? Your Honor, I don't object to the relevance of this.

Sustained. Your Honor, they brought up the religion. As per response. It's sustained. That's the next question. Do you believe that your testimony here will be accountable to God? Yes. Okay.

Ms. Sharp, how many times did we meet in person? Four. How many one-on-one conversations during those meetings do you think that we actually had? Just you and me. Nobody else around. Just you and me. Maybe two? Two conversations in our whole lives.

Maybe three and you. You said during those meetings. During the four times that we saw each other in person, how many times did you and I have a one-on-one conversation where other people were not in the conversation, just me and you. I can remember three. Okay. And how much, how many times did we communicate on the phone?

I, do you want me to estimate? I don't remember how many times. Sure, just an estimate. I'm not sure how to estimate that multiple times. Like more than 10 or less than 10? Probably more than 10. More than 20? I don't remember. And text messages the same. How many times do you think that we conversed via text? I don't know.

I'm not sure how to answer that again. Okay, so would it multiple times? Okay. So would it be fair to say that some of the things that you remember are from other people and not actually from me to you directly? Perhaps. Okay. So in the instance, when you said that I mentioned to you something about zombies, I would like to know what I said to you exactly verbatim about zombies. Well, that was, I remember we talked about zombies in 2019 for the girls weekend.

You had mentioned zombies. I mentioned zombies at that weekend out of my mouth and not someone else, but me. I object to argumentative. Overruled. You can ask, why don't you? rephrase that question. Okay. So you're saying under oath that I said the word zombies at that meeting or I'll go with that.

To the best my recollection, it was that weekend during the girls weekend, 2019. And again, that was six years ago. So like verbatim, I don't remember verbatim, but I think it was that weekend. So it could have been that someone else was talking to about zombies, but I was actually there also. Is that correct? I'm going to object that the witness has answered that question and said it was her. Overruled. She can answer.

Would you mind restating, please? Is it possible that someone else said the word zombie and not me at that meeting when we were all there with the girls? It's possible, but I don't think it was. What did I say exactly about zombies? I want to know the sentence I said to you about zombies. Hold on. Ask questions, okay? I object to ask and answer.

So, rephrase your question. What sentence did I say to you with the word zombie in it? I'm going to object to ask an answer. Technically it has been asked an answer, but go ahead and answer. Again, I don't remember verbatim. That was, what, six years ago? So it could be possible that it really never came out of my mouth. Is that true?

I object again to ask and answer now third time. Sustained. Ms. Sharp, who are the three Nephites in the Book of Mormon? The three Nephites? I'm sorry, I don't understand the question. In Third Nephi, 28, the three Nephites, do you know who they are? Off the top of my head, no. You do not know who they are?

No, not off the top of my head. Okay. In the Bible, do you know of John the Revelator? Yes. Do you know of John the Revelator being translated? I don't remember that, but... You don't remember that? What about in the Old Testament, Elijah, was he translated? Your Honor, I'm going to object to relevance. What's the relevance? I've been accused of being out of the scope of the LDS religion

when this is exactly in the scope of the LDS religion. All right, I guess to the extent you're comparing yourself to these biblical figures, I'll allow it. Was Elijah translated? Yes, I believe so. Okay. But you don't know that John the Revelator was translated as well? I can't remember. And then the three Nephites in the Book of Mormon, they're translated as well?

No, there were three. You asked me their names. I don't remember their names. I wasn't asking their names. I said, do you know who they are? As in, are you aware of them? I'm sorry. I'll be more specific.

Are you aware of the three Nephites in the book Mormon? Yes. That they were translated. Yes. So is it fair to say that that isn't uncommon in the Christian belief system to believe in people being translated? I don't know if I'm qualified to answer that question for all of Christianity. Okay.

Are you a Christian that believes in the Bible? Yes. I object, Your Honor, to relevance. I'll allow it briefly, but hurry up and make your point. Yes, I believe in the Bible. Of course. And Elijah, in the Bible is translated, right? Yes. And you believe in that, right?

Yes. And you're a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Is that correct? Correct. So that would not be out of the scope of what you believe. That's all I'm asking. Correct. Okay. That's all I wanted to know.

Thank you. So when we were having this girls weekend, what else did we do besides one prayer? I remember going to out to lunch and we went to the temple and we did service projects. So we had typical fun girls weekend. Yes. With five minutes of a prayer. I don't remember how long that prayer was. But basically out of the 72 hours that we got together, five minutes of it we spent actually praying.

Again, I don't remember how long the prayer was, but that was not from my perspective, the focus or majority of our time spent. Okay. How long would you say that prayer was? 10 minutes, longer? I don't recall. Okay. But a tiny portion. of our whole fun weekend, right? That is a small portion, yes. Okay. How many communications have you had over the past five years with Christina Atwood?

Many. Like how many? Again, I'm not sure how to estimate that. Daily, weekly, monthly? Weekly for sure, sometimes daily. Okay. So would you say over the past five years that you're, that your relationship has grown with Christina?

Yes. And are you related now? To Christina? No, we're not related. Oh, I've in laws. No. Okay. I wondered. I didn't know.

No. Your Honor, again, I'm going to ask that the defendant be told not to comment about the questions and testify. Yes. The jury should disregard that comment after the answer. Are you still in contact with Zulamma? Pestinus?

No, I haven't had contact with her in a while. Are you in contact with Kay Woodcock? Who? I'm sorry. Kay Woodcock? I don't know who that is. Okay. Are you still in contact with Nicole Earle?

Yes. How often? Often, again. Weekly or daily? weekly, sometimes daily. Okay. What about Melanie Gibb? Are you still in contact with her? No. I run into her occasionally.

You said also in your testimony earlier that I said that I believe I don't need to repent and you are shocked. Is that correct? Yes. What did I say to you exactly? Again, I don't remember verbatim. That was over six years ago, but something to the effect of. you didn't need to repent. Again, I don't know exactly, but we didn't need to repent, whatever it was. But yes, that's what I remember. What was the context of that conversation? Like, how would that come up? I'm like,

how would that come up? I don't remember what we were talking about or how that subject was brought to the forefront. But it was, I definitely remember that comment. You remember that coming out of my mouth to you. specifically, not from someone else, but from me to you directly. Yes, and it was, I think, in front of all of us, but not very clear on that. I think it was to all of us from you. So was I teaching a class that you attended and said something in that regard? No. Why would I be the one speaking?

Sometimes we take turns when we speak. speculation as to why the defendant would be speaking? I'll let the answer stand. She answered. You said something about being uncomfortable on that weekend, is that correct? With some of the topics? Yes. Why didn't you just leave if you were so uncomfortable?

I was uncomfortable with some of the topics, but I was still there with friends. and I had flown across the country, so it was not easy to leave. And I didn't feel like I needed to leave at that point. But you're a grown woman, right? You have your own mind and ideas? Yes, of course. So would it be fair to say that you didn't disagree so much at the time,

but now looking back on it, you disagree? I don't think that's a fair comment, no. And would it also be fair to say that we had a good time about weekend? Yes, we did have a good time. And that now you've changed your mind a little bit. I'm sorry, I don't understand the question. Changed my mind about what?

About what made you uncomfortable? No, I didn't change my mind. You had mentioned something about, you were interviewed by the police a couple of times. Is that correct? Yes. How many times? Twice.

Who was, who were you interviewed by? The first time a detective came to my home, his name was Nate Moffitt, I think. Okay. When was that about approximately? I want to say spring 2020. Okay. How long was that interview? I don't remember.

Like an hour or less or, and Your Honor, that's witness. already answered the question. She doesn't remember. Can you estimate how long that interview was? From my memory, I don't remember it well. I thought it was only a few minutes, but I think it was longer than that, perhaps.

Longer than a few minutes? Yes. What about your second interview? Who was that with? That was with two detectives from Idaho. And where did that take place? In the Chandler Police Station. And how long was that interview?

That one I remember being longer, for sure, over an hour, perhaps an hour and a half. And what did you exactly have to contribute to the police for an hour and a half with someone that you have only met three times in person in your life? Objection, speculation, relevance. What were they interested in you telling them? And I'm going to object to speculation, relevance. What did you tell them about me in those interviews? Objection over broad. Oh, foundation.

Also calls for hearsay. Yeah. So, sustain. Do you feel like you have something to offer here today in relation to the crime that I'm charged with? Objection relevance. Those to the final opinion. Ms. Sharp, did you see or hear or personally witness me? me conspire with my brother or anyone else to murder my husband Charles Velo?

No, I did not. Thank you. Starting a business can seem like a daunting task, unless you have a partner like Shopify. They have the tools you need to start and grow your business. From designing a website to marketing, to selling, and beyond, Shopify can help with everything you need. There's a reason millions of companies like Mattel, Heinz, and all birds continue to trust and use them.

With Shopify on your side, turn your big business idea into sign up for your $1 per month trial at Shopify.com slash special offer. No more questions. Many of you were asking what the jury was doing this time. Their expressions were notable. There was one juror that had this sort of like slight smile, like I can't believe this is happening. And there was another juror who I noticed his eyes rolled at one point.

It was definitely a testimony I've never seen before, and a testimony unlike one I've ever seen before. Prosecutor Trina asked a few more questions on redirect, and then we moved onto the next witness. And the state called William McDonald. William McDonald teaches criminal justice at a high school now, but he previously worked for the Chandler Police Department for 26 years and retired in November of 2022. And he started off in patrol and then switched to the community service. service team before being transferred to detectives for internet crimes against children and internet forensics where he did cell phone and computer extraction. So you can now know what type of witness he is. Compute cell phone extraction. William then explained how cell phone extraction

works and each step he takes along the way. He explained that extraction means that they copy the information on the phone to another device such as a thumb drive or hard drive. He explained he is just the extractor. He does not analyze or review any of the data that is extracted. He just does the actual extraction. And on July 16th, 2019, William got a request to extract Charles Vallow's cell phone. And he began the extraction process on July 17th, the day after. They then showed photos of the phone with the screen off, the screen on, the apps on the home screen, and the about section in setting. So we are all seeing this on the big screen. and all of this identifies Charles's phone.

He used something called a gray key to extract the phone, which creates a single file of everything in the phone. Then he opens that file up in Cellbrite. That's the program used, Cellbrite, also the program that was used in Delphi, Indiana for the Richard Allen trial, Cellbrite organizes the files on the phone. After he was done, the Cellbrite system allowed them to create a reader file, which is what the other law enforcement members used to actually

analyze the data. Lori decided she did not want to cross-examine this witness, and then William ended his testimony. And I think this is sort of, this is sort of Lori's strategy. This is another witness that she has chosen not to cross-examine, because I think she realizes that if she does that, she brings in other information and the opportunity for the state to then redirect. So she just chooses to let it be. But Williams ended his testimony answering one juror question, which was if someone were to delete their browser history, can you pull up the history? And William said that on occasion and basically explained that usually within a year of the search happening, they can, it can be recovered. The next witness on the stand was Marissa Francisco, who is a forensic scientist with the city

of Chandler, Arizona. She had worked there since August of 2018, but prior to that, worked at the Arizona Department of Public Safety since 2004. She spent seven years in the blood alcohol unit and then moved to Trace Comparison Unit. And then in 2016, 2017, started training in the latent print unit and has primarily done latent print analysis since then. Marissa explained latent prints are an impression of friction, rigid, rigid detail that are not readily visible. It's been a lot of time going over the specifics of prints, fingerprints, how they're identified, what can impact the prints. It was a long part of this testimony for this expert witness. She said that in her job, she has asked to compare prints to latent prints to known fingerprints,

and then they brought out, what did they bring out, the baseball bat. The baseball bat that Charles allegedly used to allegedly attack his brother-in-law Alex Cox, which is the reason he had to be shot in self-defense. That's that's the defenses. That's that's Lori's defense, right? Well, let's bring out the baseball bat. Marissa tried to recover latent prints from the baseball bat. She did not test for the latent prints on the grip

because with the texture of it, she did not believe that she would actually be able to recover any. Photos of the bat were shown in court. And Marissa testified that she was able to recover. over two impressions on the bat. The first one was on the W of the Rawlings on the bat. This bat was a Rawlings bat and Rawlings was written very large across the entire baseball bat. And the second one that she was able to get was in between the G and the diameter. After obtaining the latent prints, she believed both impressions were NVID, which means no value for identification. In other

words, they were not able to identify who, but they could possibly make exclusions as to who. They could say it wasn't this person or it wasn't that person. She was initially asked to compare the impressions to three people, Charles, Lori, and Alex. But because they were NVID prints, they did not compare per their standards. And she then was asked to compare them to Charles Valo for exclusion purposes to see if she could exclude Charles Valo. fingerprints from the bat. Well, with the first print, she was not able to identify nor exclude Charles. For the second print, her conclusion was that the latent print was inconclusive to Charles.

And I'll be honest, I didn't necessarily think that Lori was going to cross-examine this witness because of how technical it was and it didn't seem to really point in either direction, guilt or innocent. But Lori did with one question. Let's listen. You said earlier that the DNA that you collected, was that ever tested? I don't know. Is it sent somewhere else? Correct.

So the city of Chandler does not have the capability to test for DNA. Anytime we swab for DNA, we send it to the state lab for analysis. So you swabbed it and sent it to the lab, and that was the last you heard of it? Yes. Okay. Thank you. That's all. All right.

And with that, we went into. afternoon recess or um and the next witness on the stand was someone who all been waiting for our beloved k woodcock kay you did great today k woodcock that is jj's grandmother charles vallows sister kay went over the history of the family her own family her family of origin she is one of six siblings and Charles is her older brother. Lori had two kids, Tiley and Colby, and Charles had two kids, Colin Zach, who did not live with Lori and Charles. Kay and her husband Larry Woodcock received guardianship over JJ Valo when he was born to Kay's son. And then Charles approached his sister Kay about possibly adopting JJ. It took some time for Carrie and Larry to decide

this was the right thing for JJ or what they felt was the right thing for JJ. But when he was two years old, Charles and Lori officially adopted the toddler. Well, Kay explained the adoption was final in July of 2014 and explained that JJ was autistic and was born 10 weeks premature. So he did need more care. And by July, 2019, though, JJ was seven years old and there were just two kids in the home. JJ and Tiley. Kay explained that Charles was the greatest dad and was always doting on JJ.

And that was the word she used, doting. If Charles was out of town, she started to see how the family was managed. If Charles was out of town on a business trip, Lori had JJ by herself full time. But when Charles returned home from his business trips, JJ would be 100% Charles's responsibility. He testified that Charles was a financial planner. and sold annuities. And he had his own business with a business partner and a job that required him to travel three to four days a week on average. Kay explained that Charles was meticulous

and methodical when it came to paperwork. When in his profession, if it's not perfect, it will get back to you. Kay said that Charles said there was never anyone he would really trust to do his paperwork for him, but he trusted his sister Kay and Kay offered to help. K. Kay explained while she didn't know exactly what Lori did, Lori also helped Charles with his company. And she also explained that prior to working finance, Charles was drafted to the Houston Astros minor league. Kay explained that she was raised pretty much in the baseball field

between her brothers, Charles and Jerry both playing. And while Jerry didn't stick with the sport, Charles did. And he was a very good left-handed pitcher. Kay made it clear that he was left-handed, and he was left-handed in all he did. After moving to Houston for baseball, he blew out his knee, but Charles Stale stayed in shape, and he was always doing things like biking, hiking, heading to the gym, and he just remained a very active man, even as a 60-year-old.

Kate testified that their family did not grow up LDS, but Charles, her brother, converted to the LDS faith at some point during his marriage to Lori. And this next part was really interesting. So let's just listen together. In March of 2018, did you have a member of your family pass away? Yes, my mother did in March of 18. Did Charles come out for that? Yes, he did.

He was there for her services. Lori was not. And we felt like something was going on. Well, actually my husband felt it before I did. And then when she didn't show for my mother's funeral, I just thought that was just appalling. It appalled me that she wouldn't even come to something like that with her husband. What was your relationship like with Lori?

Because of the work I did, the company we owned, I was on the phone. an extreme amount of time all the time. So I really don't like to call people. I'm not a phone person. I'll text you all day long, but I really don't like to talk. And so Lori and I never really had a big phone relationship. It was a text here and there. But mostly Charles would keep me up to date.

So, you know, different things that were going on or, you know, what they were up to. or Charles would call. Yeah, Charles would call me mostly. So you weren't, it sounds like you weren't close with her. When Lori and I were together, it was like we hadn't missed a minute. We just took up where we left off. And she's very outgoing. And she's very friendly, very easy to talk to.

So we got along rather well, and I loved her. And she loved her, admitting that, sharing what she felt towards her once sister-in-law. In October 2018, JJ and Charles came out to Louisiana for a weekend to visit Kay and her husband Larry. And in November of 2018, they saw Charles and JJ on a Thanksgiving weekend in Las Vegas, which that's interesting, right? like JJ and Charles leave and are not with Lori for Thanksgiving, but they go to Las Vegas and they meet Kay and Larry there. He thought it was odd that Charles was not with his family, so I'm not the only one here. And Charles just said that Lori or Tiley was sick. That's what he kind of explained.

And he wasn't sharing much at that point about what was going on. But Charles did open up later on. He testified that in 2018, she did have some concerns with Lori. Lori and Charles' relationship. And again, well, Charles would never really say Kay and Larry knew something was going on. And he was visiting Kate and Larry in Louisiana more often, you know, from Arizona. Kay testified that in 2019, Charles was absolutely concerned for his safety. One time at the beginning of February 2019, Lori texted Kay that she and Charles had gotten

into a fight and that she went to a hotel room with JJ and Tiley. And then Charles called Kay the very next day and was a mess. Lori was gone and he did not know where she was or when she would be back. And so Kay, what did Katie? Well, she flew out to Arizona to help Charles and help with JJ. Kay testified that there was a huge problem with the relationship at this point. It's obvious. Lori is nowhere to be found.

And when Kay arrived in Arizona, she finally spoke to Charles about his concerns for his safety. She did not see Lori at the time. In fact, nobody would even tell Charles where Lori was. J.J. was with Charles, with Charles and Kay. And at that point, they believed that Tiley was staying perhaps with Lori's brother. Well, Kay said that Lori was gone for 58 days. And how does Charles know the exact number of days and how does Kay know the exact number of days? Well, she knows it was a specific time frame because every day Charles would tell her each day that passed, day three, day four, day five, day 12, day 20. And each day,

that passed, he knew how long it had been. So during that time from February to the end of March, Kay would fly back and forth from Louisiana to Arizona while working remote. And then at the end of March, she actually decided to move Charles and JJ to Houston because as Kay stated in her testimony, Charles said Lori did not want JJ, Tiley, or him meeting Charles anymore. So she suggested to Charles that he moved to Houston where she would be two and a half hours away and could come and stay with JJ while Charles worked. While Charles suggested getting a nanny, Kay was like no way and said that she would be a nanny free of charge. But she was also helping Charles's, she was also helping with Charles's business at the time. She was changing all of the payments that had to be made and the passwords.

And while they were packing up to make that move after 58 days, so, you know, Charles again, 56, 57, 58. and after 58 days, Lori arrived at the house. Take a listen about that interaction. When you were packing up to move Charles to Houston. Yes. I was there. Did Lori show back up? She did.

I was in the pantry in the kitchen, packing up the pantry, and I don't know what just something, caught my attention and I walked out and she was standing there. She had her back to me. Charles was sitting at the table on his phone and he obviously didn't realize that she was there and then finally when he hung up he looked up and there she was and he started crying and and she started yelling. Do you recall what she was yelling about? That why did you take JJ? Why did you take Jay J, why did you take them out of school? Why are you moving? What are you doing? All this is your fault. It was just ridiculous. So she'd been gone for 58 days leaving no contact whatsoever.

And then she shows up at the house when you guys are moving out. Yeah. What was Charles's like demeanor reaction? You said he was crying? He was at first. Then he was just trying Charles was a very soft-spoken man and and he was just trying to get a word in edgewise and

finally Lori settled down a little bit and they were they went and they talked for a while in the living room or the I guess it's like a great room and then they moved to the bedroom to talk

and I could still hear here every now and then Lori would get a little loud, but they were talking. And then I remember that Lori came, let's see, I was sitting at the dining table and she stood next to me and she said, I love you, KK. And I said, well, I love you too. I'm sorry, this is happening. And she cried and I didn't know what to do really so I mean I just was there and then she walked off and the next day she came she I don't know who came but they got Kylie's belongings out of the casino where all the Tyler's belongings were and I don't remember if she got anything of hers I really don't remember interesting to note as Kay was talking about

that moving interaction, there was a point where Lori flipped her paper, grabbed her pen quite dramatically, and began frantically writing notes. At the end of March and beginning of April, Charles was receiving a $125,000 check for commission, and Lori knew that because she was there for a few days before it was deposited. And Kay had access to the bank so she would see the deposits. Kay and Lori, excuse me, Kate and Lori stayed in Texas until the end of May. before moving back to Arizona. Excuse me. Kay said that Lori, I kept reworking that run. Case said that Lori stayed in Texas until the end of May before moving back to Arizona.

And although she wasn't there in Texas the whole time because she was traveling a lot, Lori was always coming and going. When she moved back, JJ went with her while Charles stayed. Prosecutor Trina asked if Kay knew if Charles was paying for the house. that she was staying in in Arizona. But Kay actually wasn't sure because at the time she was selling her own company in Louisiana and was super busy and she actually wasn't dealing with as much with Charles's business and his stuff because Lori was now back after those 58 days.

Well, Trina asked if Lori worked when Charles and Lori got married. Kay said that Lori was a hairdresser, but she doesn't think Lori worked long or any or maybe at all after Charles and Lori were married. K testified that Charles worked while Lori stayed home and took care of the kids. And then Trina asked, did you know that Charles had a life insurance policy? Kay responded yes. And explained that years ago, Charles helped them each acquire a million dollar life insurance policy. In early February, February 2019, Charles told her he was going to take Lori off as his beneficiary and put Kay on instead.

They talked about it for about a minute and a half. And Kay didn't really want to do it, but she never followed up to see if Charles had done this and didn't find out that he had actually changed it to his life insurance to make Kay the beneficiary until after he was killed. Next, Prosecutor Trina moved into the July 2019 timeframe. Kay testified that the last time she saw Charles was in June 2019 when Charles came to Lake Charles. On July 10th, Charles texted Kay letting her know that he would be in Phoenix and asked her how it was going. The text wasn't a big deal, as Kay put it, but let's take a listen to the details of this is heartbreaking of these final moments here. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day.

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support. Other companies might sell just credit monitoring, or just a VPN. And ORA gives you all of it together at the same price competitors charge for just one service. Start your free trial today at ORA.com slash remove. Protect yourself now atora.com slash remove. When was the last time you recall speaking or texting with your brother Charles? He texted me the night before he was shot and just, hey, I'm going to be in Phoenix tomorrow. you know, how's it going?

And just a little short pack. And I'm bored in the plane now and I'll be back in Phoenix in a little bit. And then he told me a few other things he had planned, but that was not a big deal. Did you think he was going to Phoenix to just see JJ? Yes. Did you know anything about any type of intervention? No, he never talked.

If he did talk to me about it, and I'm pretty sure I would have remembered that. But no, I know that he and Adam, Adam was his confidant during that time, Lori's brother. And so I know that whatever he was doing, you know, Adam was part of it. And, you know, they were just, I knew he was in good hands with Adam,

because Adam, they love Charles, him and his life. Do you have any knowledge of Charles wanting to get a place here in Phoenix so he could be closer to JJ? I don't remember that, but I can't remember that. I mean, I don't think, I don't know. No, I can't. That's okay. I want to talk to you then about,

So you talked to your brother just kind of normal stuff as he was before he got here to Phoenix. How did you learn that your brother Charles was dead? It was on July the 12th. I was at a nail salon in Lake Charles, my granddaughter and I. And I got a call from his oldest son, Cole. and he said, hey, what is going on? I just got a text from Lori and she said, Dad's dead.

And I said, I was, wait, what did you just say? And he told me again, and I said, something's wrong with that. That can't be true. And I said, have you tried to call her? And Cole was like, yes, she won't. I'm trying to call him. She's not answering. He was freaking out.

And I was like, okay, Cole, just give me a minute. Let me think about this. Let me see. And I'll call you back, I promise. As soon as I can figure this out. So I call my husband to tell him. And he said, okay, well, I told him what Cole said. And he said, hey, let me call you back in a minute.

And so I was still at the nail salon trying to get out of there. And he called and he said, he's dead. I Googled him and he's dead. Alex killed him yesterday. And I mean, that was just like, it was horrible. My siblings, what to do. Call call Colback and let him know that it was true. And just telling him be, you know, let's keep in touch.

You find out something. I'll find out something, you know, we'll let each other know. Did you try to reach out to Lori? I tried calling texting Charles. I tried calling texting Lori. And at some point, she texted me. She returned to text something like I'm having to deal with a lot of stuff and I'm busy. And she was too busy to even call.

his family to say that he was dead by her brother killing him. And, uh, so you had tried to reach her and she was too busy to talk to you. Yeah. When Trina asked Kay about burial plans for Charles after his death, Kay said that they called police and spoke to a detective and told them they had already arranged a flight to come to Phoenix. Kay needed to know what JJ had seen.

She didn't know what he knew, but she knew it was not good. But she said she, but Kay said that she had to talk to the detectives before doing anything with Lori. And that Sunday, they talked to the detective. And that is when she told him about the life insurance policy. She wasn't sure if Charles had changed it over. And then she said that she had to get JJ because he was not safe with Lori. She felt that. And that was a moment, by the way.

She was able to say that that she needed to get JJ because he was not safe with Lori. But let me remind all of you the fact that JJ is no longer alive that Lori's been convicted of killing her seven-year-old son is not known by this jury. So right after Kay said, I had to go get JJ because I realized that he was not safe with her. After Kay said that, Prosecutor Trina quickly redirected back to the barrier. plans. Kay said at that point that Lori didn't know that she was getting the insurance money and that he was cremated and that his remains then were FedEx by Lori to Kay's office in Louisiana with a letterman jacket, a couple of watches, some sunglasses, and what Kay described as, quote,

some crap. And then Kay talked about knowing Lori had something to do with Charles's murder. She knew. Did you set up like a service for Charles Yes, my family and I made arrangements for a memorial service to happen in Lake Charles on August the 3rd, which was, you know,

he was killed July 11th, so it took us a little bit to put it together, but we did. Did you talk to Lori about having JJ come out for Charles's service. I think the last time I talked to Lori was she told us that she wanted, you know, I asked her, what can we do in Houston? I was trying to be nice because I knew she had something to do with his murder. And I'm not, I'm not one that can just lie off the cuff.

I don't I'm a bad liar and so I would when I did talk to her I had to I was and it was a long awkward conversation I had with her but I was like what do you want us to do with those stuff at the house in Houston and but when we got to the house in Houston and she did yeah if y'all please go do what you want to do with it get see what Cole want you know you'll split up y'all take care take it she gave you permission to go to the house in Houston and take whatever was there? Yes.

And when we got there, none of Charles's personal belongings were there. Nothing. Nothing at all. And that, I couldn't figure out why nothing of Charles's or JJ's was there. Or wait, I don't even, I don't, nothing of Charles's was there. When Kay was asked how she found out about the life insurance that had been changed to Kay being the beneficiary instead of Lori.

Kay said that she received a call saying that she was the sole beneficiary of Charles's life insurance and that the lady calling wanted to verify some things to send out the check. And at that point, during Kay's testimony, Lori was sitting straight up taking notes. She's always sort of taking notes when she's flustered or upset. And then the jury learned about Lori's thoughts on Kay being the beneficiary. What did Lori think when she found this out? When you got that call, did you ever have Lori confront you about the life insurance policy? Did I ever have Lori what?

Did Lori ever confront you about being the beneficiary for Charles's life insurance policy? Yes. She didn't call and do it. She sent me a text one night, a picture or two, of a screenshot, she took a screenshot of the change of beneficiary form with my name on it. my name on it. And she was, I, she said something to the effect of five kids and, and his sister gets all the money or is that why you want JJ, something to that effect, which it made no sense. I want JJ, period. That was a dumb statement by her. So let me ask you this. So she told you

again that she, she was left with these five kids, right? Yeah, five kids. She didn't have she had Colby and Tiley and JJ And Colby was out of the house So it was just Tiley and JJ But she's messaging you this saying How upset she is because she has Five kids to take care of

Yeah And then she tells you that Is this why you wanted JJ to come to Charles's service? She No, I had already gotten the okay from her to come get him. I was going to fly here, take him up,

go back to Louisiana, keep him for a week during and attend the, so he could attend the service during that time. And when she got, when she found out she was not, when she found the change of beneficiary for him, she said that

she was too busy. They were moving to Hawaii and she, it would be too confusing for JJ to come and he needed, he needed to be with her. Wow. We're learning just how Lori works. And then it was time for Lori to cross-examine Kay Woodcock. And, you know, oh, boy, is my thought? Well, it wasn't just my thought. It was also Kay's thought. Take a listen to this. Thank you. I have no other questions. All right. Cross. Mr. Cucke, where were you on July 11th, 2019? At home in Lake Charles, Louisiana. Were you aware at all of the relationship between Charles and Tiley?

It was, let's say, it was a bit contemptuous. It seemed like there was always a lot of drama going on. And so that's all I knew. I didn't. He didn't say too much about it and I didn't cry. But you knew that there was some kind of contention going on with those two for a while. I'm sorry. You did know that there was some kind of contention going on with those two for a while? Yes. Okay. And you weren't really aware of the events that happened that morning, were you?

The morning of the murder. Of July 11th? No, I wasn't. Okay. Because you didn't tell me. Ms. Wiccock, did you see or hear or personally witness me conspire with Alex Cox to kill my husband, Charles Vallow? No, but I saw a ton of evidence that did. Thank you.

No further questions. Boom. Mike drop with that last line. Did you see it happen? No, but I saw a lot of evidence. last for the day was that prosecutor Trina Kay was able to redirect after Lori's cross. Let's take a listen. You're asked about the relationship between your brother and Tiley.

How old was Tiley when Lori and Charles got married? She was three. We're right around three. So was Charles in her life for most of her memorable years? Yes, he was. And how old was she in July of 2019? She was 6. 16. Yes, she, yep.

So a teenager. Yes. In terms of their relationship, are you saying that Charles and Tiley never had good times? Oh, I'm not, no, I'm not saying that. I saw them have good times. And it wasn't, you know, it wasn't that they couldn't look at each other. You know, it wasn't like that.

But, I mean, yeah, a teenage girl on one is hard anyway. But I do know that there was a lot of issues with her dad and Lori with her ex-husband and custody. And it was a mess. It was a mess. So, Tiley had a lot. going on in her life. Yes, she did. And you would see her and Charles, at times, have difficulty getting along?

I never really saw anything that sticks out in my mind. But I just know he'd tell me how it was just difficult. And, you know, as a step-parent, it can be very difficult. I can attest to that. So on July 11th, when Charles Valla was killed, did you actually have any idea that your brother was dead? None at all. How would I know? So in terms of you learning that your brother was dead, it was never from Lori about her from her.

It was from Google that my husband found. Thank you. I have no other questions. Are there any questions for this witness from anyone on the jury? I don't see any questions. You could step down now. After Kay came off the stand, there was a moment when where Colby Ryan and Kay Woodcock hugged and she came back to her seat. It was a really touching moment again. this is Colby Ryan's first day in court. And it feels as if he was there to support Kay and perhaps

Adam to. In fact, Colby went live today. Be sure to check that out tonight, sharing about his experience there. I know that we certainly will over at the Colby J. Ryan YouTube channel. And then actually on Saturday night, just a couple of things coming up. I just want you to know, well, first on Friday, Friday tomorrow. We're still scheduling what time. I plan to go live with our beloved Aunt Bickey, Bickey Hoban, she is the aunt of Tammy Daybough and also a friend of Kay and Larry. We're going to talk about Kay's testimony and how she's feeling, sort of revisiting a lot of these things. And then also on Saturday night, John and I, Dr. John and I are going to be over actually on Colby's channel, talking to Colby. He's going to ask us some questions.

We're going to talk to him, and that'll be Saturday night at Colby J. Ryan's YouTube. channel. Be sure to remember to hit subscribe, hit notifications, because we never know when we're going live during this trial, recapping sort of era that we're in. And then also a reminder that in the description of this episode, we have a merchandise link for, uh, don't flatter yourself. Thank you, Nachie Joe, as well as a link for our incredible trial sponsor dream. Thank you so much. And may justice be served. don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet,

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