Hidden True Crime - LUCY LETBY - UK BABY KILLER UNMASKED with Forensic Psychologist Dr John Matthias

Episode Date: March 7, 2024

This podcast was originally recorded on August 21, 2023, the day former British neonatal nurse Lucy Letby was sentenced in the UK to a whole life-order. 34-year-old Letby murdered seven infants at Countess of Chester Hospital, and attempted to murder six others between June 2015 and June 2016. She was charged in November 2020, and her trial lasted from October 2022 to August 2023.  Letby's methods included injecting the infants insulin or air, overfeeding them, and physically abusing them using medical tools. In January 2024 an application to appeal her conviction was refused, but she still faces a retrial on one of the counts coming up in June 2024 on the one charge where the jury was unable to reach a verdict during the original trial.   We will certainly be following. JOHN MATTHIAS is a licensed clinical and forensic psychologist with 30 years’ experience in both clinical and forensic work. He serves as an expert witness for the federal government and has consulted on numerous high-profile cases for District Attorney’s offices and defense attorneys in several states. In the forensic area, Dr. Matthias has developed expertise in personality assessments, hidden behavioral motivations, complex trauma and criminal psychology. In the clinical realm, he has worked with numerous victims. He received his Master’s degree in Marriage, Family and Child counseling, as well his doctorate degree, from the University of Southern California. Dr. Matthias graduated with honors in philosophy from Princeton University, and he won the prestigious McCosh Thesis prize while there. In high school he graduated valedictorian from a large public high school in Chicago where he was chosen to participate in a ground-breaking valedictory study that continues to this day. Dr. Matthias has been an adjunct assistant professor in the University of Nevada Las Vegas clinical psychology doctoral program since 2007. He supervises UNLV doctoral students on forensic assessments, clinical case formulation, and various therapeutic approaches to clinical work. LAUREN MATTHIAS has worked as an anchor and reporter for ABC, NBC, and FOX News in East Idaho, Boise, Idaho and Salt Lake City, Utah. She spent a decade reporting on a diverse range of topics from high profile crimes to Presidential visits. Most recently, she reported for Salt Lake City’s ABC affiliate News4Utah. In 2015 she received the Idaho State Broadcaster’s Association Best Reporter award. She left the reporting world to produce the Hidden True Crime Podcast along with her husband Dr. John Matthias, a forensic psychologist. Your support helps us produce these podcasts/videos. We have some big plans to explore the true crime terrain in a way that no one else has attempted. HIDDEN: A TRUE CRIME PODCAST is: CRIMINAL PSYCHOLOGY REINVENTED. Join us on a journey into the darkest recesses of the human mind and the unconscious motivations that drive human behaviors in order to understand the world and ourselves. WEBSITE: https://hiddentruecrime.com/ SUPPORT: https://www.patreon.com/hiddentruecrime https://paypal.me/hiddentruecrime Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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or a 2.9% APR on a 2025 Ridgeline or CRV. See dealer for financing details. This podcast was originally recorded on August 21, 2023. The day former British neonatal nurse Lucy Leppie was sentenced in the UK to a whole life order, meaning she will die behind bars. 33-year-old Leppie murdered seven infants at Countess of Chester Hospital and attempted to murder six others between June 2015 and June 2016. She was charged in November 2020 and her trial lasted from October 22 to August 2023.

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Hello, hello, last minute surprise live for our gems today. Many of you have asked us about this case of Lucy Lettby and she was sentenced today. For those of you that know about this case, but for those that are new to this case, Lucy Lettby was just sentenced today in the UK for life in prison without the possibility of parole. this is the, they do not have the death penalty over there. This is the strongest sentence one can receive. I think she's only the third woman to ever receive such a sentence. And she is now the most prolific serial child murderer of all time, of modern times in Britain. She did not appear at her sentencing, which many people, much of the media over in the UK is very upset about.

Understandably so. I can't imagine if Lori Valo-Daybel, here was allowed to not attend her sentencing, there would be outrage as well, which meant that she missed victim impact statements of the parents who lost their children in the NICU, the neonatal intensive care unit. She was a nurse there. And she has now been charged and sentenced with seven murders in the NICU. She was a neonatal nurse. And she injected air into the bloodstream of babies, milk into their stomachs, did all sorts of horrific things. She, and she attempted many more to kill many more babies. And then in addition to the attempt, she attempted multiple times sometimes until the baby

did die. A lot of people are trying to wrap their heads around this case, and we have been doing that from our home as well, the two of us. And we decided today with her sentencing that it was time to talk. about who Lucy Letby is and to take the mask off of Lucy Lettby. Again, many people warned the hospital about her. Infants were dying. There were concerns that she was always on shift when this happened.

Doctors warned the hospital about her and nobody believed it. People even made certain doctors apologize to her for accusing her of this horrific crime. she was able to commit these crimes for years. So we want to talk about her and why people could not see beyond this mask and what's been so difficult for all of us to even comprehend. John and I have a personal interest in this case as well. We had our baby boy in the neonatal intensive care unit, completely vulnerable to nurses.

We love them so much. We took our son back to the neonatal intensive care unit on his first birthday to thank the nurse is there. We're taking care of our little boy. So we cannot fathom what these parents have gone through. I want to start by sharing an experience from one parent, Baby E. During her trial, Lucy Letby's trial, the jury heard how Lettby had won the trust of the families she targeted. The mom of Baby E recalled leaving her son with her, adding, I trusted her completely.

The woman had found her five-day-old child in extreme distress, but was reassured enough to walk away and return to the postnatal ward. Giving evidence at Manchester Crown Court, the mother said, I could hear my son crying, and it was nothing like I'd heard before. It was more a scream than a cry, a sound that shouldn't come from a tiny baby. It was horrendous. I walked over to the incubator to see blood coming out of his mouth. I was panicking because I felt like

there was something wrong. Letby, who was in sole charge of Baby E, remained at the workstation to the side of his incubator as the mother tried to calm him and persuade her to go back to the postnatal ward. She told her, trust me, I'm a nurse. Asked by Nick Johnson, Casey, prosecuting

why she did, Lettby had told her, the mom replied, because she was in authority and she knew better than me, I trusted her completely. The rules were go back upstairs and if there's a problem, I'll call you. That was Lucy Lettby. I followed the rules. Mr. Johnson, K.C. said that the baby's mom had interrupted Lett be as she was attacking the child. She did not realize it at the time and after murdering the newborn. Lett be had then asked the mother whether she would like to bathe him. Letpe, who was in sole charge of Baby E, remained at a workstation to the side of his incubator as a mother tried to calm him and persuade her to go back to the postnatal ward. She told her, trust me, I'm a nurse.

Asked by Nick Johnson, after murdering the newborn, again, she asked the mother whether she'd like to bathe him. And after the mother said, I was just too broken, I couldn't. Lucy Leppie bathed the murdered newborn in front of the mother. I think that testimony and that story is a good place to jump into this case because it reveals so much about what's going on. First of all, the thing that really struck me when you read that to me initially was the screaming. So you and I both had a child in the NICU and I think you and I both had to start making distinctions between pain, which would be more. screaming and crying, which would be more related to, say, hunger, right? And so it's interesting here,

this child has blood coming out of its mouth. This child is, the parent recognizes that this is unusual. This is screaming. This is pain. This is a child that is about to be killed, right? And the parent knows that, senses that, and too, it's it. And you have the nurse essentially saying, don't worry about it, even though the parent knows everything is wrong with this situation. The nurse says, don't worry about it, trust me, just leave. And so there's a couple components of that story, I think, that really start making sense of Lucy Lettby. The first is that this issue of trust, that when we put a child in the NICU or when we put a parent, for example, recently, my mother, who's elderly now, was in the hospital, we just anticipate that there's a fundamental level of trust going on and that people will care for people that they're that are

entrusted to their care. And so you have, with Lucy Lettby, you have a real fundamental violation of that social contract of trust, that in many ways our society is built upon that social contract, that there are certain agreements we all have that if we don't honor them just because we don't feel like it, we're really undermining the social contract, which is based on trust. When I heard that story, I thought of Ted Bundy. And the reason I thought of Ted Bundy, who's obviously one of the most notorious seriicals of all time, is because Ted Bundy would lure his victims in oftentimes by wearing a cast that wasn't real, right? That he was, Ted Bundy was playing on this social contract, this need for, this fundamental need for people to feel that the world is trustworthy and safe.

and he would wear this cast and say, I'm hurt, can you help me? And then his victims would come with them and he would murder them. And Ted Bundy was never hurt. The cast was just a prop. And I think here you have, in this particular case at least, and probably in many others, with parents that Lucy Lettby is getting to trust her, she's violating obviously that fundamental trust. So that's part of it, is that she's developed this trust in this unit

with nurses, doctors, colleagues, parents, everyone. And she's using that trust against these people. She's violating that trust to really take advantage of the situation and get her needs met. And so I think typically the people that take advantage of that trust or abuse that type of trust, they tend to be a little antisocial. I don't know how far I want to go with that, but we could take that all the way to psychopathic. I'm sure there's people that are out there that have probably diagnosed her or considered her to be a psychopath. And certainly when you're capable of murdering so many children, we're not talking.

It's just, it's unthinkable. And so what kind of a human being is capable of that? So I think this issue of trust speaks to potentially this deeper issue of someone who's deeply antisocial. And you wouldn't gather that from looking at her life. from looking at her relationships. So that's a part of this story, I think, is that you're not, what you see here is not what you're getting, that there's a lot more going on below the surface.

And so this violation of trust, this willingness to have a mother see her child bleeding. And we're talking about like probably what, a one month old, two month old child, like the most vulnerable child you could ever imagine is bleeding from their mouth. The mother knows something's amiss. And yet Lucy Letby,

not only dismisses the mother's concerns, but goes on to murder the child. That's just unreal. That is so antisocial. I can't even write my mind around it. And then when the mother is too heartbroken to bathe her child, Lucy bathes the deceased murdered baby

for the mother in front of her. The last act of seeing her baby, she bathes the baby. that to me yeah speaking of anti-so she's taking on or attempting to take on this maternal function but at that point the child has already been dehumanized she's already murdered the child it's just so that whole scenario is just chilling and not only that but the screaming part so that as a parent who's had a child and then who's screamed I can't it I can't even describe it like when our child when they so when they were switching out

his feeding tubes. Our child was in pain. He was screaming really loud. And for a parent, it's indescribable. It's blood curdling, right? And there's nothing more difficult, at least for me, than to hear my child or any child scream and be in pain. And I think for most normal people, it's a human instinct to help that child or to offer, right, to offer assurance or comfort or security to that child. And here you have a nurse who, whose job it is exactly to do that, who's doing the complete opposite. So again, there's something deeply antisocial about that as well. And I would go even further here and say that inflicting that kind of harm and listening to those

screams and still carrying through with that act is extremely sadistic. So you have these elements from the story about violating a fundamental trust and potentially getting the statistic pleasure from harming this child or all these children. So both of those are deeply antisocial acts. And again, I don't know her well enough. I'm not the psychologist that would have assessed her. So I don't know what people's diagnoses are. I'm going to stay away from that.

But I'm just going to observe her behavior here and say that those particular behaviors are off the charts, antisocial. They show a lack of compassion, a lack of empathy, right? They show a lack of emotion. Manipulation, right. And so all of those types of behaviors are very antisocial. I guess if we went to an extreme with it, we'd say that they're psychopathic. I don't know if they are, but I think you could definitely move in that direction with looking

at that type of behavior. It's so outside the realm of any normal human response to that predicament. It's even, it's just, I understand, completely understand why people all over the world are just absolutely incensed by this case because it's such an outlier. Like, even for serial killers, this is an outlier beyond what's imaginable. She was in her 20s when this took place. she is 33 years old now, but these crimes happened in 2015, 2016, that are known that the crime she was charged with. She was busted.

CCS earlier, she just started following this, how when investigators, police decided an investigation was needed into the multiple deaths in one hospital, the high mortality rate of the neonatal intensive care unit. And as one detective said, he never imagined that the police would actually even uncover something so sinister. They were not expecting that.

They thought this might be something related to medical issues or staffing or better care. Medical equipment could be maybe. Right. Who knows? Nobody, so despite her being on shift every time an infant like this died, when doctors brought up concerns in the end, there's one doctor that expressed in an article today that he was forced or he was told he needed to apologize to Lucy let me for even considering that she might be an issue. She does not come across.

If you see her, I would personally describe her looks as something of a nurse. She looks like the girl next door to me. These are opinions of mine. She looks sweet. Pictures of her bedroom have appeared online where she has a dream as a wish your heart makes, sparkle like a diamond. I would call them really cheesy childlike quotes. on her wall, something you might see in a child's room. A dream is a wish your heart makes. That's from

Cinderella. I had that song memorized when I was seven. I don't sing it now. I've grown up. It's still pretty, but it's not something I'd ever hang in my room. She had a butterfly comforter. So there's one friend Don, that's what I want to say, one of her childhood friends, Dawn said, I will not believe she did this until she confesses to me personally. Because there's just the Lucy let be I know growing up is the kindest person. Think of the kindest person you would know in high school. And that's her. She was an only child. Her parents supported her all through this trial. They were there every day, even except until today, the sentencing and the verdict. They've decided to stand by their daughter and not appear showing their solidarity with her.

So I'm just trying to give a little bit of a background of what we know about her when they searched her house. They found two books. I think that are both important, but one is, I just forgot something greener. It's about a woman wanting to have an affair with a married man. We're going to get to that, put a pin in that. And little notes on Post-it notes, post-it note notes that the prosecution has brought up as a confession.

They say it's a confession. The defense says, no, these were just journal entries of self-loathing and self-hatred, the prosecution says that they're her confession. I think when somebody says in a note, I did it. It seems a confession, of course, I don't think she said specifically what she did. So I guess there's a little bit of ambiguity. But yeah, why don't you read a bit of the notes or some of the notes? Let me read a few of the notes here because the notes are important in explaining who she is.

And then I'll share a picture of one as well. I am evil. I did this. That was the main one. They brought up. The prosecution brought up. I am evil. I did this. Other words, she wrote, there are no words. I am an awful person. I pay every day for that. I can't breathe. I can't focus. Let's be honest. Buying cannabis shouldn't be complicated, sketchy, or low quality. That's why I want to tell you about mood.com. That's M-O-O-O-D.com. Mood ships federal legal cannabis straight to your door. No medical card, no hassle. And here's the kicker. The quality is better than anything you'll find at your local dispensary. Yeah, I said it. Whether you're into edibles, concentrates, flour, or just looking to explore, you'll find it all at mood. And it's not just the variety that makes them stand out. Every product is sourced from small American-owned family farms that care deeply about what they grow. It's cannabis you can trust, delivered discreetly, and ready to

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And then in capitals, hate, panic, fear, lost. I don't deserve to live. I did this. Why me? I killed them on purpose because I am not good. enough for them and I am an horrible evil person. I do not deserve mom or dad. The world is better off without me. What's one financial lesson you learned the hard way? I'll go first. It's not too late to start saving. Today's episode is sponsored by Acorns. Acorns is a financial wellness app that makes it easy to start saving and investing for your future. You don't need to be an expert. Acorns will recommend a diversified portfolio that matches you and your money goals. You don't need to be rich. Acorns lets you get started with the spare money you have right now.

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2025 Ridgeline or CRV. See dealer for financing details. There you. I think this gets into one of the other major elements of her psychological portrait, which would be depression of some sort. I don't know if her depression, presumably, it's fairly severe, but she is able to function at work. She is able to attend work regularly. Her depression doesn't seem to be so crippling that she can't function in her normal lives. But a big component of depression is this type of self-hatred, this type of low self-rength.

worth. And obviously, she's got a lot of that based on these notes. This is someone who clearly doesn't like herself very much. She has the word, you can see the word hate there, circled, and in black, standing out in a note that isn't in itself very negative and an example of the type of self-hatred she has. But it does seem like there is this, certainly seems like there's this element of depression here, this element of self-hatred. I think the fact that she's putting hate, she's really emphasizing that, I think that's really fascinating in the sense that I think this potentially is someone who is taking that self-hatred and displacing it or projecting it onto these innocent kids.

That she's taking those parts of herself that she really despises and hates. She seems to have this envy of other people, with children, with small children. So there seems to be this envy of the families, probably she's working with every day in the NICU and that type of environment. She mentioned that she's panicked about not having kids herself or having a family or finding love. And so I think you probably have this combination of self-hatred and envy.

And she doesn't, she's not healthy enough to really process that hatred. And so she's acting out. She's acting out that inability to express all those feelings of hatred and self-hatred. And she's seemingly projecting that onto these poor, innocent kids that she's murdering. And which even that is so out of the ordinary. It's one thing to have these types of feelings and maybe to vent to a friend about how you feel or your family or whatever. but to actually act it out, to actually commit the murders, that's a whole different scenario. I think many people in this predicament might find a therapist or they would find someone to talk to about their depression or their feelings.

But she doesn't. She just hangs up quotes in her room that says, spark like a diamond. Right. Like a diamond. Thank you, Rihanna. She doesn't be motivated. Yes, Cinderella quotes, Rihanna quotes. As if those fantasies are going to.

somehow transport her to some fairyland or some false reality, right? But in a fairies, she had fairy lights on the metal frame of her bed. Yes. So fairies, fantasies, dreams. You know, she, and you point out the self-hatred, she literally said that I killed them on purpose because I'm not good enough for them. I am a horrible, evil person. So I think you nailed that with, she's putting her.

her hate onto them. I also thought it was interesting, though, that she said, I will never get married or have children of my own. No hope. And again, she has a Cinderella quote on her bedroom wall, saying, a dream is a wish your heart makes. This is right before Prince Charming, rescue Cinderella. She has a Cinderella quote on her wall.

And then she says, I'll never have children or a family of my own. And it's, so there's another component to this that's important. and that is that it's not just the depression and the self-hatred. Let's say you have depression and then one manifestation of depression or one of the symptoms or maybe causes of depression would be this self-hatred that she's showing. But there's also another interesting element to this in terms of the question. So the question I just raised is why would someone like this act out in this manner, right? Why would they act out in such a violent manner?

And it seems like part of the answer to that question is that she was, apparently smitten with this doctor at the hospital who was also a pediatrician. A married pediatrician. And so it seems as if, based on some of the evidence that she was trying to get his attention, she may have even wanted to potentially harm these children to a point where he would step in and their sister. So she had this whole fantasy about this relationship. She did appear to have this relationship. she denies it, but they spent a lot of time together.

They wrote texts to each other. They wrote to each other a lot. They communicate. So there was clearly some type of relationship. And as I told you earlier, to me, this is a version of Moonschausen's by proxy, which that, which I don't even know. And so let me, the, Moon Chousins is the old term. The new term is factitious disorder imposed upon a, another. Let me just clarify that because I know men of health professionals will say, hey,

Dr. John, you got that wrong. There is no Moonschallens anymore. That's true. But Moon Chauzen's is such a cool term. I love that term, Moonschausen. But it has literary ramifications. But there is this element of, I think, technically she's not the parent or she's not entrusted with the long-term care of these little ones in the NICU in some sense, a temporary guardian, right? She's responsible for their well-being when they're in there and it's her job to oversee their health and well-being. And so I think you could very much argue that you have some versions of factitious disorder imposed upon another here in the sense that she is seeking attention from someone. She is injuring these children for the purpose of potentially a relationship or to get the attention of a doctor. right? And so there isn't just this depression, but there's this relational component to the

depression. That she, the depression is a big part of this in the sense that I think that someone without that type of oppression would be much less likely to act out in this manner. But when she decides to act out like this, there does appear to be a reason. She wants this relationship. She has, as you pointed out from her note, she has this fantasy about love being a panacea, which, by the way, has similarities to like Lori Val-Val. I'm seeing Lori here, this unearthly love, a love like nothing she has ever experienced on earth.

She explains it. Lori does. And Lori also, we've speculated that Lori engaged in factitious disorder imposed upon another as well. Correct. And that Lori probably has some version, I don't know to what depth, but Lori has some depression as well.

So I think you're seeing these similar elements here playing out. And so potentially I could argue that without this love interest or this doctor in the picture, maybe it just stays as significant depression. Maybe not. I don't know. Maybe she finds another way to act it out. It's such an outlier and it's so extreme and unimaginable that it's just hard to put together. Even if you're interested in a relationship with a pediatrician who could potentially intervene in these cases,

like to go to the length that she did, again, just unthinkable. In other words, she liked this doctor. She liked attention from this married pediatrician. Thus, when one of the infants under her care died, she was able to reach out to him. And he gave her comfort just as if she was the mother of the baby. Because here they are in this hospital together. she is caring, she's childless, but caring for this baby. So when something happens to this baby, when the baby under her care gets sick,

woe is me, I need attention from the doctor, I need this love. And so she's getting that from the doctor through these text messages. And he comes down to visit her. Comes down to visit her. He gives her attention. He comforts her, praises her. It is very similar to But I think it goes

It goes beyond that too That's part of it But it goes beyond that in the sense that She's asking him for help And she's saying how could I What can we do here to help these kids? She's furthering his involvement When these murders are occurring

Obviously he didn't know that at the time But when these children are dying I think she's able to use that To extend the relationship with him and to try to deepen it in the sense that she's looking at him as an ally. She's looking at him as someone who can help diagnose and someone who can provide not just emotional comfort, but intellectual support, that there's a bit of a mystery here, right? And he wants to bring him in on the mystery, and she wants to bring him along for the ride

and solving this mystery. And therefore, she's drawing out the relationship. So it's that combination. I think, yes, she's looking for his emotional support, but she's also looking for some way to extend or deepen that relationship. And this, he's a pediatrician. He works at the hospital. Of course he's going to have an interest in all these mysterious child deaths. And she has to know that. She also tried to get attention from the parents.

When the babies died, she created a memory box for one of the families where she put the locks of the hair of the baby and footprints and hamprints. and sympathy cards. She wrote sympathy cards to parents. So she was also, I want to ask you about that in addition to what it seems like she's trying to get attention from the parents in doing that. They have her online information where she was looking up grieving parents. The parents of the newborn she killed, she would quickly find them on Facebook and she would go

and visit their Facebook pages a lot and see what they're. up to and it seems watch them grieve, watch their heartbreak. Again, I think you have a Moonschausen's component here potentially where she's trying to get sympathy from the parents or trying to be seen as the caregiver who gave her all to save the kids. Obviously, she didn't, but that's the perception she's trying to create. And also you have a little bit of the Rex Hewerman situation here where Rex Hewerman calls with one of his victims. He gets a burner phone out and he calls. calls the 15-year-old sister of one of the victims, and he taunts her. Right? You have,

so this goes back to that sadistic component, that in some ways she's trolling the parents of these deceased children. She's playing on their grief and she's, there's some element, getting back to that sadistic component about the child screaming, I think you have something similar that Rex Heerman calling the sister and taunting her about her sister's death, or at least that the fact that her sister is missing, I think it's something similar to that. I think she's reveling in their pain to some degree. So you have a little bit of that sadistic component going on, I think, with the memory box. And it's odd, right? Because she's trying to maintain a connection with these parents to get sympathy. And yet she knows she murdered them. Right. Basing the murdered

baby, making a memory box for another murder baby. There's a sadistic element where she's saying, I did this. I'm creating this pain. And now I want to see it. Now I want to walk. Now I want to bathe in this pain that you're experiencing. So there's there is this really sadistic component to that too. And that goes back to the screaming.

The child, like I, it's unimaginable to, I would hope it's unimaginable to most of us to hear a child screaming and not to want to lend some comfort or support or aid to that child. And here you have a nurse of all things who's doing the complete opposite. This is like for any parent like us with the child in the NICU or any parent with the child in the hospital, this is like our worst nightmare. We have somebody here whose baby 30 years ago was born in the very same hospital where Lucy Lettby was employed.

She says, my son was born at the Countess of Chester. Although 30 years ago I can't imagine the pain and distress the families are going through. I just think it's so hard for so many of us to either fathom. Sleuthian sandals is saying she tried to kill four over a two-week period, succeeded with three. There was such a concentration of activity for want of a better word with the deaths. I was just going to bring this up to, and I know we need to conclude, babe. One, it was, she went on vacation, had fun. She went to a hen party and then she came back.

And then just hours after she came back from that party with friends, that's where the concentration. would happen, or at least one of them, where any thoughts of that or what might be have been going through? I think when she was away, she was probably thinking about it. She was probably fantasizing about killing again. So I think she felt somewhat, she felt a little bit of an urge to an impulse to kill again. I think that when she, I know this is going to sound bad, but when she was gone, when she was away from the NICU and she had a little bit of a break,

I think she missed it. And so she was, there were probably some fantasies about getting back and doing her thing and murdering again. And that's not atypical for serial killers. And she is by definition of serial killers. She's not anyone I would distrust from first impressions. I've never talked to her, but. And not just her looks or her presentation, but her, people said that she was so kind and sweet in her attitude, right?

Like that, all of that would throw you off. Right. Again, her friend Dawn, I would have never, she says she still will not believe it until she confesses to herself, that she will believe she's innocent because they say, think of the kindest girl in high school you knew. And I can actually think of one, right? Those just overly sweet girls.

And that's who she was, according to her. friend Don. Allegedly her Don is wrong, hence the name of this, let's unmask who she really is. Yeah. So I think just to give a quick summary of this case, which is what we're doing here, we're obviously not diving too deep into this at the moment, but to quick overview, I think those are the main components I would point out. Some of these antisocial qualities, this depression that has a large component of self-hatred, possibly throwing in factitious disorder imposed upon another, or Moonschausens, which brings in more of the relational component, that perhaps she's acting out to get the doctor's attention,

to realize or to try to bring to fruition this fantasy she has about love and this doctor and where it could go. That seems to be to her some type of panacea for all her depression and her shortcomings and her concerns. And so I think it's probably some combination of those elements that I would go to at the moment. I appreciate it. Thank you so much for helping all of us.

You really helped me to process this. It was a heartbreaking one for me. And so thank you for sharing your knowledge with everyone. I just want to end with a quote here, if that's okay. This is a quote by Milne who wrote the Winnie of the Pooh series. He happens to be British. So I think it's totally pertinent to today's show, today's quick show live. So I'm going to just read a section from winning this is from winning the poo.

Piglet sidled up to poo from behind. Pooh, he whispered. Yes, piglet. Nothing said Piglet, taking Pooh's paw. I just wanted to be sure of you. This quote really struck me as being relevant to this case in the sense that we want to be sure of people. Right. I think there's a sense in which you expect a nurse to,

help your children in the NICU, right? You want to be sure of these types of people. And yet you don't, the sad part here is you just don't know, right? You don't, people aren't necessarily who they seem to be. And I think that's the frightening part here, is that every parent that now has a child in the NICU or in the hospital doesn't even have to be the NICU.

Do we have to question the people helping our kids or our children? And these children, these victims, and my heart goes out to all these families, these victims deserved someone they could be sure of. Yes. And that's the tragedy here is, if we're piglet, we want poo's paw. And this nurse is putting the paw out and then taking it away. And it's just, it's heartbreaking. With that, let's go grab our piglet from school. Thank you, everyone, for being here.

Thank you for those who asked us to cover this case and encourage John to do. Thank you so much. And we'll be bringing you more soon. All right. Thanks, guys. Hello, Hidden Gems. It's Lauren with Hidden a True Crime podcast. As a TV reporter, I learned the art of visual storytelling.

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