Hidden True Crime - MATTHEW COLEMAN- Jailhouse letters from the father who confessed to killing his children

Episode Date: March 14, 2024

Returning home to California from Mexico - Matthew Coleman is taken into custody and confesses to killing his two young children with a spearfishing gun. According to the probable cause, Coleman had been following conspiracy theories online and believed his wife had passed her serpent DNA onto their children, which would mean his son and daugther would grow up to become monsters, and Coleman had to kill them in order to save the world. This episode was originally recorded in the summer of 2022 - a year after Matthew Coleman confessed to killing his children. Currently, Matthew is being held in an undisclosed federal location for treatment after being deemed incompetent to stand trial in October 2023.  Matthew had a competency hearing scheduled for March 8th, 2024 but it never happened and we still wait. Hidden True Crime is following closely. JOHN MATTHIAS is a licensed clinical and forensic psychologist with 30 years’ experience. He serves as an expert witness for the federal government and consults on high-profile cases for District Attorney’s offices and defense attorneys in several states. In the forensic area, Dr. Matthias has developed expertise in personality assessments, hidden behavioral motivations, complex trauma and criminal psychology. In the clinical realm, he has worked with numerous victims. He received his Master’s degree in Marriage, Family and Child counseling, as well his doctorate degree, from the University of Southern California. Dr. Matthias graduated with honors in philosophy from Princeton University, and he won the prestigious McCosh Thesis prize while there. In high school he graduated valedictorian from a large public high school in Chicago where he was chosen to participate in a ground-breaking valedictory study that continues to this day. LAUREN MATTHIAS worked as an anchor in Idaho and Salt Lake City, Utah. She spent a decade reporting on a diverse range of topics from high profile crimes to Presidential visits. Most recently, she reported for Salt Lake City’s ABC affiliate News4Utah. In 2015 she received the Idaho State Broadcaster’s Association Best Reporter award and is a regular contributor on News Nation. She left the reporting world to produce the Hidden True Crime Podcast along with her husband Dr. John Matthias. HIDDEN: A TRUE CRIME PODCAST is: CRIMINAL PSYCHOLOGY REINVENTED. Join us on a journey into the darkest recesses of the human mind and the unconscious motivations that drive human behaviors in order to understand the world and ourselves. SUPPORT: https://www.patreon.com/hiddentruecrime  Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Lately, I've been trying to be more intentional about what I wear, intentional about everything, just choosing pieces that feel effortless, still put together, timeless, but also not overthinking it every morning. It's why I keep going back to quince. Their pieces just make getting dressed easier and I feel so classy. I feel elevated. The fits are flattering. The fabric is really high quality. Everything is wearable day to day. I actually got this really, really, beautiful yellow V-neck midi dress from them, and I paired it with some Italian leather sandals. It's one of those outfits that just works. It feels polished but still comfortable. It's exactly what I've been looking for. What surprises me, though, is the quality for the price. Quince uses

premium materials like European linen, organic cotton, but they cut out the middleman. So everything is priced way lower than you'd expect. Refresh. your every day with luxury you can actually use. Head to quince.com slash hidden true crime for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quince, quince, q-u-in-c-com slash hidden true crime for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash hidden true crime. This video was taken from surf teacher Matthew Coleman's public social media back when it used to be public. He and his wife Abby are surrounded by friends on a California beach for a gender reveal. The picture perfect couple is smiling and Matthew is holding their one-year-old son while Abby clearly pregnant and glowing,

cuts the cake and discovers they are expecting a baby girl, a sister to join Little Kalio. The couple looks ecstatic among the picturesque surroundings and they kiss and hug and celebrate. When that same little girl Roxy is 10 months old, Matthew takes her uncle Leo to Mexico without warning. Returning home to California, he's taken into custody, and he confesses to killing both of them with a spearfishing gun. According to the probable cause, Coleman has been following conspiracy theories online and believes his wife had passed her serpent DNA to their children, which would mean his son and daughter would grow up to become monsters. and he needed to save the world. This episode we're about to play we originally recorded in the summer of 2022,

a year after Matthew Coleman confessed to killing his children. Currently, Matthew is being held in an undisclosed federal location for treatment after being deemed incompetent to stand trial. That was October 2023. Well, Matthew had a competency hearing scheduled for March 8 this month to reassess, But it never happened and we still wait. Hidden true crime is following very closely. Hidden, a true crime podcast.

A forensic psychologist and a journalist explore the hidden motives behind unthinkable crimes while examining our deepest fears along the way. I want to talk about a case today that I've been following from the beginning. It started 10 months ago. It's about Matthew Coleman. Matthew Coleman is a California surf teacher charged with two counts of first-degree foreign murder after killing his two young children, Cleo two years old and Roxy 10 months old. His motive, believing his son and daughter had reptilian DNA passed down from his wife and their mother, Abby Coleman.

Matthew Coleman now has written a letter from behind bars to an undisclosed person. And in the letter, Coleman explains more of his Q&ON belief system. And he seems to express regret. Coleman writes in the two-page handwritten letter, I was deceived. I was deceiving myself. I know now that the reptile DNA thing was a delusion in my own mind. I made myself believe something that wasn't there. With God's help, I'm realizing how far away I was from the truth.

I shouldn't have spent so much time on these conspiracy theories and just focused on being a husband and a father. I'm sorting through it all now. There is a lot to unpack. But I have to figure out what I really believe. But I don't have access to information anymore, so I'm having to use my mind to figure things out. It's a good thing. There was so much noise and so much confusion. and a lot of that is gone now, end quote.

I'm grateful that Matthew is now using his mind to figure things out, but it's heartbreaking his attempt at critical thinking came too late, that it came at the cost of his two young children, that he was so far gone in his delusions, his two precious babies lost their lives. How does this keep happening? How do children lose their lives at the hands of their parents? Because of their parents' delusional beliefs about demon DNA or zombies.

We're familiar with zombies here, aren't we, a hidden true crime? So let's try to understand what lies hidden. Let's go back to the beginning. On August 7, 2021 in Santa Barbara, California, Abby Coleman called the police department to report that her husband, Matthew Coleman, had unexpectedly taken off with their children. two-year-old Caleo and 10-month-old Roxy in the family's Mercedes Sprinter van. But Abby wasn't able to reach him.

The family had planned to go on a camping trip, but instead Matthew left without her and had taken the children. She noted that Matthew did not take Roxy's car seat. And even though she didn't think he would hurt the children, nor did she feel like they were in any danger, she wanted Santa Barbara Police Department to see if they could get in touch with Matthew. Perhaps unsurprisingly, Santa Barbara Police Department was also unable to reach Matthew. However, Abby did not want any further assistance, nor did she want to meet with an officer in person. The Baja California Attorney General's office later released a photo from 8 p.m. on August 7, 2021, taken from a security video feed at the Hotel City Express in Rosarito, Mexico, showing Matthew Coleman checking in and Caleo, as you can see there, can be seen in that photo.

It's chilly, knowing what's about to happen. The next day on August 8th, Abby called Santa Barbara Police Department again to follow up. Later that evening, she met with Santa Barbara Police Department officer Michael Chung. On Michael's suggestion, she used the Find My iPhone application on her laptop to try to locate Matthew. His last location indicated by the app placed Matthew in Rosarito, Mexico, a resort town on the coast of the Baja Peninsula. More than a five-hour drive south from Santa Barbara where they lived and about 30 minutes south of the U.S. Mexico border. One question I have is why didn't Abby think to use the app herself?

But maybe it really just didn't occur to her. At this point, SBPD reached out to the FBI in San Diego, requesting that they interview Matthew Coleman if and when he attempted re-entry into the United States. And on August 9th, at 2.43 a.m. in the morning, surveillance video from the Hotel City Express Rosarito shows Matthew leaving the hotel with both children and his bags. Back in Santa Barbara on August 9th, just before noon, law enforcement officers went to the Coleman home, but Abby was not there. Two of her friends identified as AP and TC were at the home. They said Abby had left earlier that day for San Diego. They showed law enforcement a text from Abby to Matthew sent that morning August 9th at 312 a.m. Matthew seemed to be responding to a text sent from Abby.

Quote, Hi, babe, I miss you too. Things have been rough, but starting to get some clarity as well. Still confused on a lot of things, though, and processing through them. So many crazy thoughts going through my head right now. Hard to explain. Yeah, funny, you're getting some clarity through my grandma's old Bibles. Wasn't there too?

Anyways, was actually still thinking of, burning them in case there's a chip in them or something. Going to keep processing through everything and hope to get some answers. Hope all this craziness ends soon. Love you. End quote. So Matthew left the hotel at 243 a.m. with both children. He texted Abby that quote, I just read at 312 a.m. These things occurred before Callaio and Roxy. were killed. At 6.30 a.m., Matthew Coleman returned to the hotel alone. Three hours later, at about 9.30 a.m., he checked out. So another question, what did Matthew do during those three hours in his hotel room? Did he sleep? Correspondingly, Abby's friends in Santa Barbara at the

Coleman House showed law enforcement officers text in which Abby asked whether the children were okay, as well as the following text from Abby to Matthew at 9.24 a.m. Quote, we are doing this together, babe, praying for clarity over you and your mind this morning. Everything you've believed and known to be true is happening right now. I'm partnering with you from Santa Barbara. Let's take back our city. The gateway of revival for the state of California and the nation and the world. You were created to change the course of world history.

Take care of my little giant slayer and my voice of heaven's dove. They sure are special. End quote. This message from Abby was sent to Matthew after Caleo and Roxy were killed by their own father. Well, Abby's friends back in Santa Barbara were using Matthew's MacBook to help Abby continue to track his location. as she drove to the border. Santa Barbara Police Department seized Matthew Coleman's MacBook, but Abby's friends continue to send Abby updates about Matthew's location

by using his iCloud account, the details of which Abby had provided to the friends. At about 1 p.m. on August 9th at the port of entry, after Matthew Coleman crossed into the United States, his sprinter van was impounded, and FBI Special Agent Nathaniel Dingell interviewed him. At the same time, FBI Special Agent Joyce Deans contacted her law enforcement liaison partners in Mexico and learned that the children's bodies had been discovered at 7.30 that morning in Rosarito in a ditch. And both children had suffered large puncture wounds in their chest.

Abby Coleman also arrived at the U.S. side of port of entry on August 9th and was interviewed by the FBI. So question, Matthew checked out of the hotel at 9.30 a.m. It only takes a half hour to drive from Rosarito to the port of entry. We know Matthew discarded some of the bloody clothing in Tijuana just outside the U.S. Mexico border and he crossed the border at about 1 p.m. So what else was he doing during those three and a half hours? Once in custody, Matthew Coleman confessed to murdering Caleo and Roxy. at approximately 5 o'clock in the morning on August 9th, his own children, his beautiful children. He said it was necessary. Coleman had been following QAnon and Illuminati conspiracy theories and had recently received visions and signs indicating that Abby had passed her serpent DNA to the children. This serpent DNA was going to make Kaleo and Roxy grow up to be monsters.

He identified the bodies of his children in photos sent by Mexican authorities. Matthew said he knew what he did was wrong, but he was saving the world. There are additional details in Matthew Coleman's confession. A trigger warning, this whole case is horrendous, but what I'm about to read is hard for many to hear. We're going to go into those details. Coleman said that he murdered Roxy and Calleo by shooting them through the heart with a spearfishing gun. He killed Roxy first, and then Callaio. Calo did not die right away, and so he moved the spear around, cutting his own hand in the process.

Later reports also show that Coleman used a wooden stake to stab Calleo 17 times and Roxy 12 times. A question there. Only the media reports this sharp wooden stake and the multiple stablooms. Matthew Coleman's confession just indicates the use of a speargun that he discarded a long bloody clothing

a few miles up the road. So I would like to know where was the sharp wooden steak found? Coleman said he left the children's bodies in some brush. News reports later revealed they were discovered in an agricultural community of Rancho del Descanza.

by a farmhand who saw splattered blood outside his home, and then ultimately, with the aid of one of his dogs, found the children's bodies covered in blood, and one of the children was still wearing a diaper. Per Border Report.com, the distraught man said, to be honest, I teared up, and I immediately notified my manager to call the police to come investigate. I was scared, I was sad, because these are tiny children

who do not know any better. Hopefully they find whoever is responsible because this is a terrible thing. And this was clearly before this distraught man knew that that person who was responsible was their own father. Matthew said that he threw the spearfishing gun and some bloody clothes into a creek

a few miles down the road from where he left the children's bodies. He gave a description of the location and local law enforcement were able to find the site and the discarded clothes and speargun, they recovered a baby blanket from the site as well. Matthew reported that he had discarded more bloody clothes in a blue trash bin in Tijuana, Mexico, which is just across the border from the United States. And an FBI search warrant recently filed on February of 2022 revealed additional details from

Matthew Coleman's confession. Matthew Coleman said that five or six days ago, it states, he started noticing strange coincidences. He discussed QAnon. Q was actually talking to him. And Illuminati conspiracy theories as well as Strong's numbers, which is an index of every word in the Bible, was also talking to him. He said visions and signs revealed that his wife, AC, that's Abby Coleman, possessed serpent DNA. Matthew Coleman mentioned that he was not sure if his wife was a shape shifter and had passed it onto his children and that all things were pointing to the idea that his children have corrupted

DNA that will spread if something is not done about it. Matthew Coleman explained that he was either crazy or the only person that has left on earth that is a true man. Think about that for a second. If you were thinking to yourself, I must be either crazy or truly the only person that is left on earth that is a true man. I hope that you will think that you are crazy before you think the latter, especially if your children's lives or anyone's life is at stake here. He thought this question out, whether he was crazy or the only person left on earth that is a true man while he was in Mexico and before killing his children.

Matthew Coleman laid in bed, he said, seeing all of the pieces being decoded. like The Matrix, and he was Neo. Matthew Coleman also discussed time travel and teleportation. Time travel and teleportation, does that not ring day bell? So many things here that are familiar. He saw Roxy and Callio telling him about babies being placed in fireworks, food, and walls. Matthew Coleman explained that his children were communicating with them, that Callio told him that Abby Coleman and a family friend were abusing Roxy and Callio.

And that eventually Matthew Coleman saw the big picture that he had to kill his children to prevent them from becoming an alien species that would release carnage over the earth. I want to ask another question here when it comes to Abby Coleman, his wife, the way he talks about her here as an abuser and as somebody who has serpent DNA. that makes me wonder if Abby Coleman would have been next if he had arrived back at their home before law enforcement stopped him at the border. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers, spammers, even stalkers.

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Discover your true age today. During the interview, Matthew Coleman showed the interviewing agents several hand signals or signs that Matthew Coleman said were an indication that someone was part of a conspiracy in showing their allegiance. Matthew Coleman then explained that he scrolled through Instagram and he took screenshots of individuals making these hand signals or signs. Matthew Coleman explained that he does not use Facebook anymore that had recently searched through his friend AM's Facebook account and saw a posted photo of AM making one of these gestures over his eyes. Matthew Coleman showed agents the hand gesture. According to Matthew Coleman, after seeing AM's post,

with the hand gesture, that Matthew Coleman, in quotes, knew that the whole thing was a setup. And that they, they is in quotes, were using people to get to Matthew Coleman. On August 10th, when FBI Special Agent Joseph Hammer was transporting Matthew Coleman from the border up to Santa Ana jail in the greater Los Angeles area, Matthew discussed his religious beliefs. His work as a pastor, Nephilim, and the biblical story. of Abraham sacrificing his son, Isaac. Later that same day, when transporting Coleman further north up to Ventura County Jail, Matthew said that about five days before he left Mexico, he started, in quotes, to get clarity. He again said that this is when he understood that they, they is in quotes, were targeting him. Note, again, the word clarity, it comes up frequently in comments from

Matthew, but also from Abby and texts from Abby to Matthew and then text from Matthew to Abby, the word clarity. The following day on August 11th, when Agent Hammer was moving Coleman into custody, into the custody of the U.S. Marshals Service, Matthew explained that he first learned of lizard people, lizard people, in quotes, on Twitter and in quotes, from that British guy with white hair, end quote. And this is referring to David Ike, a British conspiracy theory. who has published several books, including children of the Matrix, which describes, among other things, Nephilim. Nephilim. Nephilim. This is, are you ready, interbreeding between the reptilian and blonde-haired, blue-eyed Nordic peoples. Quote, reptilian DNA, end quote, and quote, and quote, royal bloodlines

of the reptilian Nordic hybrids in their relation to the illuminate. naughty. Sounds bizarre, right? Reading this is bizarre. This is from the FBI search warrant filed in March of last year. So I am taking direct quotes and words from that file. David Ike, for everyone's information, has been a prolific writer, a conspiracy theory fiction for decades, and a frequent guest on Alex Jones's talk show, Infoars. Ike is a proponent of the narrative that a secret society, the Illuminati, or the Babylonian Brotherhood, has for centuries been secretly ruling and running the political and financial markets of the world. These interdimensional shape-shifting reptilians masquerading as human beings have infiltrated governments to the highest level

and are posing as the world's top leaders and thinkers across all political and cultural communities. Ike also asserts that the universe is made up of vibrational energy. This is another very big Chad DeBel beliefs. Lemma talks about it a lot in her interview that Chad Debel would always talk about vibrations, as would Lori, as would give, vibrations. Vibrational energy is what Ike asserts that the universe is made up of, as well as multiple infinite dimensions. Back to that FBI search warrant that was filed earlier this year on August 3rd, 2021,

four days before Matthew Coleman left with his children and drove to Mexico, Abby Coleman sent him the following screenshots. Here you can take a look at them of Candace Owens, a popular conservative commenter via text message. The screenshots came from the in quotes, eyes on the right 5.0, end quote, Instagram account. Eyes on the right maintains multiple accounts on Instagram. An earlier 4.0 version of their account states in the header, quote, symbolism is the language of the satanic elite, end quote. Symbolism again was also very big with Chad Debel and Lori Valo. On August 20th, the FBI interviewed AM, that friend Matthew Coleman had talked about in his

confession, the one that was making these odd hand gestures, according to Matthew. So what did AM tell authorities? Well, he explained that three weeks before Matthew Coleman murdered his own children, Coleman had started asking him about the hand gestures, the signs and symbols that he had been seen on social media. Matthew had stated to his friend that the people who made the signs were evil, in quotes. The people who made the signs were evil and were, in quotes, compromised. Furthermore, on August 5th, two days before Coleman left for Mexico, Coleman showed AM additional photos of people within their friend group also making the signs.

Coleman accused AM, his friend AM, he accused of being a, in quotes, loyalist. Are you lost? You're not the only one. It's heartbreaking to hear some of these things. And again, it reminds me almost of reading a probable cause of the Davao case. it just feels unreal. AM also told the FBI that within hours of Matthew's departure for Mexico, Abby had called him and he had gone over to the Coleman's house.

Abby showed him a photo of himself, AM, at the age of 13, making the same hand gesture. Abby, Abby Coleman, the wife, accused AM of, in quotes, being in on it. and chased AM out of the house. Clearly, this was a couple validating each other in their conspiracy theory beliefs. On September 8th, 2021, Matthew Coleman was indicted by a federal grand jury for the murder of his two children. He is being held currently in protective custody

in a federal prison and is only allowed to see a public defender. People Magazine reports that he has been assessed by a psychiatrist to determine whether or not he is fit for trial, but the result of that assessment is still unknown by us. We would love a hidden true crime to get a hold of that assessment. So back to those hidden motives. When this case first hit, I suspected a few different things. I just couldn't again imagine it was what I just shared with all of you, that perhaps maybe there was some ulterior motive we didn't understand yet that he was blaming the children's murders on Q&N beliefs, but perhaps maybe he was really an abuser and a narcissist. Maybe he was

angry at his wife and this was his way to get revenge. Maybe he planned a entire murder suicide and next he was going to kill Abby and then himself. All of these thoughts ran through my head when this case first hit the media. Dr. John and I did do an initial assessment on this case when it first hit the media, a podcast episode that you can now find on our Patreon account, patreon.com slash hidden true crime. That's where we discussed Matthew Coleman's deep religious beliefs and the likely stress of marriage, a new business, a home, and two children born all fairly quickly, John maintained then, it seemed as if Matthew truly was experiencing some delusional beliefs, or at least believing in some of these conspiracy theories that he had found on websites

and blogs. But we had less information then. And so with what we know now, I would like to ask my husband, Dr. John, again, what are the hidden motives when it comes to Matthew Coleman and his first? horrendous crimes. I am here with my husband, Dr. John. We would love to understand the hidden motives behind Matthew Coleman's case. The ongoing case, he has yet to go to trial, he has pleaded not guilty, we do not know what that psychologist assessment says, but perhaps you can share your thoughts with us today. I'll hand you the mic.

Just a second, babe. Speculating on the, I guess it's a psychiatrist that did the evaluation, but presumably the psychiatrist is going to be looking at an possible insanity plea, which would mean that he would want to know Matthew Coleman's state of mind at the time of the murders and probably would be considering strongly the possibility of psychosis. in addition to some of the obvious or clear delusions that he was having. You know, when we originally did this first podcast, I had all sorts of motives going on in my screen.

Maybe he's a narcissist, maybe this. What would you say his motive is now reading? Like, is this what you thought? Well, I think the thing I didn't know when we initially covered this case, and it was based upon the most superficial reports at the time. there wasn't a lot of information. I think the thing that's stuck out for me and the new information is there's a lot of paranoia.

And paranoia, if you listen to some of the old school psychoanalysts who I love, by the way, I wish we relied more on some of the old school folks because they really had some tremendous insights into people. But one of their notions back in the day was that paranoia is in many ways the beginnings of a divorce from reality because you're seeing things in the environment

and interpreting things in the environment that don't exist. So it's not a particularly good indicator of mental health, by the way. Paranoia is probably on one of the more extreme ends of poor mental health. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions,

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or just a VPN. Orra gives you all of it, together, at the same price competitors charge for just one service. Start your free trial today atora.com slash remove. Protect yourself now atora.com slash remove. and I think there's a lot of paranoia there. You know, it reminds me of when we talked about Spencer, who was in love with Katie Perry and how he would hear things in her lyrics that were directed towards him. And he would find signs in her mute, right,

that she was in love with them. And he just refused to believe that she wasn't. I think you're, although Spencer wasn't, I don't think his mental health was a major issue, unlike Matthew Coleman, I think it would be taking kind of what was going on with Spencer and Katie Perry to an extreme, that Matthew Coleman has seen signs and symbols everywhere, and he's looking for those. So you have confirmation bias too. He was having this vision of the Matrix all coming together and then realized he needed to kill his kids.

Schizophrenia? Is that just? I mean, it could be. I think it, there's definitely a deletrics. delusional belief system there. I'd have to know more about his history. I think he grew up in a pretty religious home. So, you know, I wondered to what extent some of this is cultural or, you know, family related too, right?

So with Daveo, you know, with Chad Daybal and Lori, we know that they both grew up in fairly religious homes. So that's where trying to figure out delusions is tricky because you have to look at the cultural context or the family context. You know, with Lori and Chad, you could argue that there's definitely a delusional belief system because zombies are absurd. You know, when it gets to the point where the beliefs are completely divorced from reality, it's more likely delusional. However, if you grow up in a family or a culture that supports similar ideas or beliefs, then it's a little trickier because it may be related to, cultural norms rather than to, you know, an extremely delusional belief system.

So I think it really is, it becomes more difficult to tease those elements out based upon upbringing and family history and all that kind of stuff. Well, and the one thing that tells me it's likely not schizophrenia, which is why I was so interested with this update, was this jailhouse letter that he wrote to an undisclosed person where he says, because he's not really, reading things. He, his mind is working and he's using his mind to consider things and that he has regret listening to these conspiracy theories.

So that would tell me not schizophrenia, right? Probably, but not necessarily. I think you'd have to, you'd still, in my case, I'd want to sit in front of them and kind of examine his belief system's current belief system as well and whether he's more grounded in reality. I mean, it's possible that he could still be having some psychotic features. But I think it's a good point that he's arguing that he's living in an environment prior to the murders where he's inundated, he's deluged with all this information.

He's overstimulated with all this information, this crazy information that's supporters, his beliefs. And now he's in a jail cell where there's no information coming in or out. And there's no stimulation, right? So he's confronted with more of kind of the stark reality of the situation. And he can't be influenced by social media and by, in his case, extreme ideologies on the internet. And so, yes, so that would suggest that would support the idea that it's probably more a delusional belief system if he's not having any visions or hallucinations or psychotic features. So, right. And that's, I think that's a really interesting discrepancy here is that you have someone who,

and we saw this with Lori a little bit too, Lori Daybell, where you have someone who is in the soup of all this extreme stuff. they're completely removed from it. And things change a little bit. For Lori, I think they may have changed in the other direction, but meaning that I think she may have become more psychotic in a way to cover up whatever painful emotions he was experiencing. And I think that was part of it for Matthew Coleman, by the way. Like the paranoia and the way he was actually.

and thinking is consistent with someone who's very defensive about vulnerability and emotions. And I think, you know, one of the things that happens with paranoia is it's a defensive strategy to avoid really confronting reality, to confronting the reality of what you're actually feeling and what you're actually thinking and how the world really works. As far as his history goes, I remember we did a lot of we did a lot of research when this case first hit because it sparked our interest. And from past cases, we've learned get information fast because it'll all disappear. And a lot of those things that we collected, people have seen on the video if you're watching this on YouTube.

But we learned, I think there's a lot of contradiction. You want to think of a surfer as a free-spirited, hippie, you know, just. living in a van down by the ocean. And so there's that contradiction, but we did learn through doing some research that his father seems to be quite religious and Christian where his mother looked, where his mother looked to be a artist

and somewhat more free-spirited, right? That free-spirited thing that I think of when I think of a surfer, That was his mother, but his father from also people that knew his father was, was the religious one in the family. We also know that Abby Coleman, his wife, came from a Christian family, that this was a very religious marriage, Christian marriage. So I just want to point those things out. That's sort of interesting to me. And then, so it wasn't like both parents and this strict cult he grew up in or anything like that.

So yeah, what are your thoughts about that? Yeah, I think that point is still valid that his parents in some ways created some polarization for him. And probably he has a lot of inner conflicts over that. And so again, like his paranoia would be a defense mechanism to avoid dealing with the reality of those conflicts or wanting to feel that anxiety that those conflicts would create. It makes sense that he moved, I think he moved,

toward one extreme and kind of rejected the other, but that doesn't mean that the other part, which would have been his mother, wasn't playing some role at a deeper level in how he, you know, interpreted the world and experienced life. So clearly, I think you see those conflicts. Also, you know, the other interesting thing about the recent information is there's like megalomania.

You know, there's definitely some elements of narcissism about how he sees how he's going to save the world. you know, how he's going to, you know, the entrance to the world begins in Santa Barbara. And I mean, this is, you know, this is a little crazy. So I actually, by the way, thought the gates to the world or at least the new world were in Pocatello. So. Well, yeah, Rexberg, let's say Idaho. So he got it way wrong on that one.

But to him, it's Santa Barbara. So, you know, again, getting back to some of the old school analysts, they would talk about the idea that paranoia often is closely aligned with this type of megalomania, you know, megalomania and grandiosity about changing the world and, you know, kind of being a savior. And the reason that's true is because there's a lot of rigidity in that belief, right? In other words, you have to really shut down a lot of information in the environment to come to that conclusion. So I think it's being really self-absorbed and it's showing a really strong propensity towards being closed-minded and rigid. And those are elements, by the way, that we saw in Chad Debo. I was going to ask you about that, too. there were multiple accounts of him saying he was going to save the world,

but also his wife, Abby, validating that. You and the world, I don't know if they both believe that, but there was definitely that element of Lori and Chad there. Right, the difference is Chad and Lori suspected Rexberg and, you know, these two suspected Santa Barbara. I'm going to go with the Santa Barbara location. it's much nicer. Well, I mean, it depends,

but I think it's beautiful. I like the ocean. Yeah, I agree. I think Idaho is a beautiful state, but I think the ocean is in some ways a place I would rather be if we're looking at the gateway of apocalypse. But yeah, you're right. She did support his belief system.

And to your point about him being a surfer and that whole stereotype, I think it's important to recognize that we can't judge a book by its cover and that all the stereotypes here are irrelevant based on his background and past. And I mean, I would love to sit down and interview this guy because those contradictions make this really, really fascinating. And I mean, it's really tragic too. I can't. The way those kids died is just unimaginable.

Like I just, you know, and that would be, by the way, some evidence of why maybe there was some psychosis or how the visions or at least his delusions were so strong at that point that he had no awareness of what he was doing and the pain he was inflicting and the consequences of his actions. I mean, it's just, it's amazing. But so it'll be interesting to see whether he is considered to be legally insane. Yeah, we've seen this before. I have a lot of questions.

So, you know, he believed in a lot of beliefs that are actually Daybell related, which makes me think that Daybell got a lot of his beliefs from conspiracy theories. I know that people like to think that these were all stemming from Mormonism and Mormon history and political ideology. but, well, on some of that, but they believed in time travel and teleportation. They believed in vibrational energy. That is discussed a lot in Zulama's interview with police and about people's vibrations. There, you know, Daybell, yes, they believe the children were zombies and that took a religious element, but demon DNA, you know, it's so similar.

And we talked about this mother, Claudia, who, killed her daughter in an exorcism. So I see a lot of things that aren't necessarily, you know, LDS beliefs or specific to that. It's, and I guess my question is, what is it that I'm seen? What is it that ties all of these cases together that doesn't seem related to their specific culture or religion? I think a lot of these extreme groups on the internet all kind of intersect, right? A lot of them traffic and the same ideas and they follow the same paths. right. So I think you get kind of hybrid beliefs based upon these groups really intersecting with each other and finding each other. And so I think that's part of it. They're obviously tailoring

their beliefs to their individual situations and circumstances. But I think there's so much overlap. There's so much the misinformation that's put out there spreads so quickly and it spreads among similar groups, right? Similar people. And so I think you get a lot of misinformation and disinformation that spreads among people that are looking for it and people want to believe this stuff. And it spreads

quickly, by the way. So I think that's part of it. They're just they're taking that information and they're tailoring it to fit their individual needs and circumstances. You mentioned that this could be

that his paranoia is a defense mechanism against being vulnerable. There was a lot going on in his life. These two Christian adults, when it comes to Christian tradition, got married later. They were in their 30s. I know that one thing I saw on Abby Coleman's Facebook page when it was more public was when she got engaged to him, people said, see, you waited and you're going to have, you know, your dream now. Best things come to those who wait. And so they got married later.

And when they got married, a lot happened for them. He started a new business, a surf business where he taught children. He had a child, he had another child, a two-year-old and a 10-month-old. They were very close in age. They had to buy a home. I'm sure they had to buy a bigger car. There was a lot going on in his life. If there was a lot of stress in his life, would this increase any paranoia or belief such as this?

Definitely. One of the fundamental tenets of old school psychoanalysis is that defense mechanisms are all built around the notion of anxiety. They're all an attempt to repress anxiety to some degree. I think more contemporary models kind of expand on that. idea, but like vulnerability, for example, you know, issues more closely related to self-esteem and the self. But stress is usually, if there's poor mental health, stress is going to exacerbate it no matter what. And I think, and we talked about this in our initial podcast on Matthew Coleman, but I think those stressors are definitely going to make the paranoia worse.

They're going to amplify, they're going to be a catalyst for all those. mental health issues are going to make it worse. And so, yes, I think that, I mean, just for a mentally healthy person, stressors can be difficult or challenging. But for somebody like Matthew Coleman, I think that the tendency is going to be to revert more to his defensive stance, which is paranoia. The paranoia is going to increase a lot exponentially in some cases. And I think you see that.

You see that with him seeing the smallest hand gestures as to be indicative of a sign for serpents or, you know, whatever it is he's seen. And so, you know, in a way you have that paranoia really taken to an extreme. She was believing it, too. I was surprised by how much she was believing it. there were sometimes while I read the probable cause and the confession that I thought when she was saying you're going to save the world babe, maybe she was validating his narcissism if he has narcissism. But the story that the friend A.M. shared about Abby accusing him and chasing him out of the house saying that he was one of them with his hand gestures really showed me she really believed this too. I don't even know what I want to say to that, but clearly they're both validating each other. It's also odd because I suspect he likely was going to kill her next because of her demon DNA and what else is he going to do, you know, go home and say, by the way, I did this.

So what are your thoughts on this sort of validation that they were giving each other? I think it makes sense because they have to coexist. There has to be at least, I think, some harmonious relationship between them. Otherwise, one or the other of them is going to leave. If his beliefs are so extreme that she finds them absurd or impossible to live with, she's going to leave, right? Because she's going to see him as a risk, and they're going to be so far apart. So obviously, she may not have believed all the extreme stuff he did,

but she was close enough to that that she was able to accept those beliefs. And yes, she did, she seemed to buy into the, she's playing into his narcissism for sure. And there are, whatever else, we'd said that early on, right? And I think that's confirmed by the recent evidence. There's definitely some narcissism. I don't know if he would be narcissistic personality disorder, but when you think you're going to save the world and it starts with you and where you live and maybe even your, surf business, that's narcissistic.

If there's at least narcissistic traits here. So same thing with Daybell. When you see yourself as the savior, that's narcissistic. No matter how you slice it, you're going to cut. And again, maybe they don't qualify the diagnosis of narcissistic personality disorder, but clearly there's some narcissism. So in order for her to cope with that narcissism and to stay married to him, I think she had to buy into it to some degree.

But I think she was already predisposed towards that. And again, I don't know her history, but there were clearly there were some elements. There are many elements there that they had in common, I think, that allowed her to to buy into his belief system. There was one point where it feels like his decision is made or he's wrestling with his last bit of doubt. And it reminds me of the story Melanie Gibb shared about Lori Valo. So the Lori Valo story is Melanie Gibb is doing an interview with Nate Eaton. And she believes that Lori doubted at one point when Lori said, well, if Chad Daybell's the devil, he sure is a good one.

And in this story, there's this moment where Matthew Coleman, tells law enforcement, well, I was either crazy or I was the last man on earth and I had to do what I needed to do. And I thought, most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scam. customers, spammers, even stalkers. It's why you get endless robocalls and why ads seem to follow you everywhere. That's where ORA comes in. Ora actively removes your data from broker sites and

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And I said this during the thing I just shared, but I thought, well, man, if you're in that position, think you're crazy before you think. You know, and he went with the latter. He went with, oh, I must be the last man. Right. again, narcissism. Yeah, I'm going to go with crazy on that one, by the way. The odds favor crazy. It actually reminds me a little bit of, so Putin, Vladimir Putin, the Russian president wrote a book or he was, he dictated a book in an interview with a journalist around 2000 when he was coming into power. And the title of the book is first person.

person. First person. So think about that. Well, he's playing on that a little bit. There is a double entendre in the sense that he's playing on the idea that he's telling someone his story from the first person perspective. But I think obviously there's an implication that he's the first person. Well, I mean, you can see it on a lot of levels, but yeah, he's the president. So he's the first person in the country. He's the first person, you know, I mean, you could see that in so many levels, right? But clearly, you don't title a book first person unless there's some narcissism. And I think, and it reminds me of Matthew Coleman saying, I'm the last man on earth, right? The first person is often going to see him or herself, in this case, himself, as the last

person as well. So both Putin and Coleman are. demonstrating some clear narcissism there. And I think Coleman, yeah, if you look at the, if you look at the odds, the odds clearly favor crazy and not the last person. So, you know, he wasn't considering the probabilities, but the narcissists don't. When I write an autobiography, I'm going to call it third person. I'm going to call mine last person. Well, that's a little bit Matthew Coleman. On the first person and the last person here to save the world.

One of the main questions we get with Lori Valo and Chad Daybell all the time still to this day is, did they really believe it? There are a lot of people out there that follow the case that do not believe that Chad and or Lori believed it. And even I have my doubts about Chad, although John says I go back and forth and John's pretty solid on Chad believed it. But did Matthew Coleman really believe this or was he under so much stress? or wanting revenge from his wife that he wanted to kill his kids. No, he believed it.

He definitely believed it. You can see that from, when you get to the point where you're murdering your kids with a harpoon, you're a true believer at that point, I think. So he believed it. Lori definitely believes it. Chad, I think, like 98% believes it. Chad was making up some BS along the way to keep Lori happy, in other words. Yeah, but he, he, he,

Because he was the first person, because he was the prophet, or saw himself as a prophet, he can make stuff up because he's getting it from visions, right? If it's coming to him from God, then it's real. There's a lot of this going on. I thought, as I read some of the probable cause and his beliefs, that there are other people out there that believe this. I know some people that believe them. I know a friend that if I read this probable cause to them, they might start saying, well, but that is true if you read this or listen to this podcast.

And I'll state my beliefs. These conspiracy theories are not real. There's no evidence backing them. But what would you say to people that might be disagreeing with my personal beliefs right now? I think I would say, look at what the world tells you, right? look at the, in some ways, mental health is about the world, meaning reality, whatever that is, giving you information that's pretty clear. And either we can pay attention to that or we can ignore it.

So if, for example, I think that gravity is a false idea and that Einstein was completely off base, I'm probably going to be proven wrong if I go to the top of the building and try to fly. a high building, right? Because gravity in the end is going to tell me the truth. It's going to win. I'm going to be wrong. And you're seeing something like that with Matthew Coleman. He's going from an environment where there's all this information and misinformation. He's inundated. He's swimming in it. He's swamped in this stuff, right? To a jail cell where there's no information. He's on a very structured program or his day is extremely structured. He's not inundated with all this. stuff. He's dealing with the reality of the world, I guess, in the sense that he can look at things more objectively. He can look at his behaviors more objectively because he's not being inundated with false information. And I think we all, you know, mental health to some degree has to do with seeing things as they are. And that's, by the way, that's part of the problem here. I think it's very, very hard to deal with seeing things as they are,

which is that we're mortal and we're human. And, you know, we're not going to live forever. And there's limitations to everything we do and we're vulnerable. And people don't like that, you know. And when you question someone's beliefs, they're going to try to cling to those beliefs if they feel challenged. So I think a lot of this has to do with social media being more accessible and misinformation be more accessible,

but also people just not paying attention to the world and not looking at the reality of things and not being able to assimilate those things. T.S. Eliot, the famous poet, had a line in the four quartets, which was humankind cannot bear very much reality. I think that's really what a lot of this has to do with, is bearing reality.

Reality sometimes isn't pleasant. And especially when it conflicts with your belief system. So was the reality, was it real that his kids were demons or, you know, alien human hybrids? No, there's absolutely, I mean, you know, there's no, there's never been, speaking of, there's, there's never been, with all the alien, you know, sightings and reporting, and there's accounts of aliens. having intercourse with humans, there's never been any evidence whatsoever. There's never been a human hybrid alien baby ever identified.

Now, you can argue that the government or certain people are covering it up. And, you know, maybe there's maybe that's true. Maybe there's a slight chance of that. But in psychology, there's something called face validity, which is that it has to do with testing, which is, does the test seem to show what it's intended to show? In other words, on the surface of things, is it valid?

You know, it's a common sense test, right? Like, is this test I'm using accomplishing what it's supposed to do? And I think that's true of seeing the world, too. Like, is it common sense? Is it face valid? Does it make sense at a very simple level? Is there common sense involved in what we're talking about? And is it face valid to say that there are alien human hybrids?

I mean, no, not based on the evidence we know. It's absurd. We got an awesome, well, first off, one of our Patreon supporters, Erica, she's always saying, where is your critical thinking? But when it comes to, yeah, John loves it. But when it comes to Matthew Coleman, it's not even critical thinking. He says that now he's in, you know, behind bars in jail and there's no information he can think. He's able to use his mind, as in he was not using his mind.

So it's not even a where is your critical thinking? It's where is your mind? Where are you thinking? I thought that was interesting. that I don't know if you want to say anything to that, but then in addition to that, thank you for what you said about, um, um, we received a message from one of our patron supporters, um, Melanie.

We call her the good Melanie. And she said that our very first podcast episode about the day bell case, that that still resonates with her, that she hasn't forgotten it where you said, we need to focus on being mortal, that, uh, we need to focus on the fact that we're not need to. You never tell us what we have to do, but that you think that humans don't perhaps focus enough on just being human, that that's enough. And it feels like a lot of these cases, it does come back to that. So with both those things being said, anything you want to add. Yeah, I think that goes back to the last question you asked about human beings really struggling to deal with reality.

And again, we could have a debate about what that is, but certainly if I think I can fly and I jump off a building, I'm going to be proven wrong unless I have some type of space suit or some type of, you know, propulsion system to keep me in the air, I'm probably going to be proven wrong but even then it's going to be the case that gravity is is going to win because i need i need some apparatus on my back to keep me afloat right so so yeah you know being human sometimes is difficult and it's it's painful and it involves a certain amount of suffering and it involves loss no matter what and we in many instances would prefer not to deal with the pain of being human and i think so we can instruct these elaborate belief systems and we find ways to avoid what it means to be human.

We dress ourselves up in the most expensive outfits and we buy purses that cost thousands of dollars, not us, but, you know, some people. My point is that we have all these elaborate rituals and fashions and our culture is designed to keep us from reflecting on the more painful parts of being human. So in some ways, this is very cultural. And we're in a time now, you know, the pandemic I'm sure didn't help. It increases misinformation. Things become more extreme because people are anxious and because when you have a million American citizens who die from a virus, it creates a lot of anxiety and it creates a lot of stress and fear.

And so I think extreme beliefs just become more extreme in this type of environment. Are we going to be seeing more of these cases as much as we don't want to? Yeah, I think so. I mean, in the same way that we're seeing more mass shootings, I think it has to do with similar issues, greater fear, greater anxiety out there. I think, unfortunately, when things become so extreme and so polarized, I think the risk for violence go up. Again, this will go back to human beings dealing.

with reality. Like so many times human beings try to create these fictions and to feel like they're more powerful than they are, more important than they are. And so it's running away from some obvious facts that human beings confront, which is, again, our mortality, vulnerability, our suffering, our pain, our struggles with the world, depression, our anxiety. It's not wanting to deal with all of that. and to create a parallel universe, a fictitional parallel universe where you can live and you can feel powerful and you can avoid some of the unpleasant elements of the human condition.

Matthew Coleman, for example, was so divorced from reality that he thought his kids were serpents and he killed them. So I think the issue, and again, getting back to what mental health is, mental health to some degree is interpreting the world in a realistic fashion. and that's positive and negative. So it's not all negative, obviously. There's positive elements. People are loved and our kids are wonderful and sometimes are not, but many times they are. It's dealing with things realistically and building a belief system based on how things are rather than how we want them to be and creating these fictions about how we want things to be

and living in those fictional worlds and building those fictional worlds up to the point where they seem so real and that we have to act within those fictional worlds in a way that's harmful to other people. Thanks, babe. Thank you. Anything else you want to say?

I think we're good. That was good. We're getting a lot done. I'm going to have a lot to edit next week. So love you, babe. Hello, Hidden Gems. For exclusive content, things Dr. John and I only dare say

behind a paywall, become a Patreon member at patreon.com slash hidden true crime. You'll find bonus episodes, early releases, and insider info. Thank you for your endless support.

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