Hidden True Crime - Part 2 RUBY FRANKE/JODI HILDEBRANDT | Hidden True Crime x Mormon Stories Podcast React to Shari Franke's New Book

Episode Date: January 13, 2025

Lauren Matthias sat down with John Dehlin, Megan Connor and Mindy Caldwell as they reviewed the book "The House of My Mother" written by Shari Franke, the oldest daughter of Ruby Franke. About Hidden True Crime: Lauren Matthias, a former television reporter, and her husband Dr. John Matthias, a criminal psychologist, started Hidden True Crime in 2020 with their Season, 'Beyond the Veil,' a psychological deep dive into the doomsday murders and prophet. What started as a simple conversation at their dinner table became a captivating podcast. Join the dynamic duo of Dr. John Matthias, a forensic psychologist, and Lauren Matthias, an investigative journalist, as they delve into the psychological facets of unthinkable crimes every week. Their unique perspectives and in-depth analysis offer a fresh take on true crime storytelling. Thank you for your support through sponsorships, subscribing, listening, and becoming a Patreon member at Patreon.com/HiddenTrueCrime Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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self-loathing Olympics, because you have to do that in order to be acceptable to Jody. then, you know, Jody gets Sherry to keep this rigorous personal inventory of all the things that she's doing wrong because, you know, Sherry comes up with a list and Jody goes, well, that's kind of half-hearted. I don't really think you're trying hard enough. Oh, that was heartbreaking. Yeah. Yeah. Like all of the tiny little things.

Seven instances of whatever, you know, she just. Like being prideful. Like, you know. That's in chapter 20. The chapter's called Dirty Laundry. and this line broke my heart where Sherry says, working with Jody was a dream come true for my inner mean girl. I'm like, oh, poor Sherry, that's tough.

Meaning that Sherry was already with her scrupulosity and OCD and depression was already beating yourself up enough. And Jody needed something to come at her with. And so since Sherry wasn't externalizing her bad behavior like Chad was, and Sherry was pretty much being the good girl, then Jody had to flip it and say you're being prideful. You're being too confident. You're not humble enough.

You don't have enough empathy. You don't have enough compassion. You're engaging in adulation. You think you're better than everybody else. That's one thing she talked about. Yeah. Yep. It was like a psychological nightmare.

It's warfare. It's psychological warfare on this poor girl. To answer the question of how does Jody do this, I think she got really good at gaslighting people. And she knew exactly what to say. say to push the buttons to get people to hate themselves, basically. And to think, oh, man, Jody knows better than I do about my own experiences. I better listen to her.

And this is really telling, too, Jody confronts Sherry about what Sherry said to Chad, basically saying, Chad, don't listen to her, don't go to her for therapy. And so Jody says, before we hang up, I'd like to address something, Sherry. I heard you had some disparaging things to say about me. Oh, crap. Blood rushed to my cheeks. Oh, I'm sorry about that. Jody says, don't be sorry. Be real. Fine. Yes, I had some concerns. Then Jody says, I said be honest, Sherry. You were spreading gossip, lies, and rumors. Would you consider that to be compassionate behavior? Or do you prefer to blindly believe everything you see on the internet? So can you imagine vulnerable Sherry? with this therapist who has an incredible amount of control over Sherry's well-being and where Ruby has literally sung her praises, you know, and said how wonderful she is. And so now Ruby is, or sorry, not Ruby, Jody is telling Sherry that she has been spreading

lies and gossip and asking her, you know, would you rather just outsource your critical thinking and believe everything that you read or do you want to be honest it's like somebody in a vulnerable position you know jody is clearly taking advantage of that disparity you know that that power differential to gaslight her and sherry says well i mean if it's the truth i started feeling like i was walking into a verbal minefield oh you're going to learn a lot about truth sherry you'll love it chad does and he's much better now isn't he jody said brightly, shifting gears. He seems more respectful, I said quietly. And your mother doesn't shout as much as she used to, does she? It was true. Ruby didn't raise her voice as much as she used to since she'd been

in connections. The question is, this is Jody speaking, are you willing to do the same work to be a happier and more fulfilled person for your family and one day for your spouse? Sure I am, I said, feeling like I just signed a deal with the devil, or at least the devil. level's life coach. I love that. So I think a really important part of understanding, not just Sherry, but also what ends up happening to Kevin, is Jody's tactic of isolation. Yes. And I've got that flagged, Margie flagged up for a starting 100, page 106 at the bottom. But maybe, maybe Mindy. Oh, actually, let's have Lauren read. So Lauren, at the bottom of page 106, it starts talking about Jody's tactics around isolation.

And this ends up being important for all Sherry and Kevin as well. Do you mind just reading until you feel like we should stop? Where does it start? Starting with the self-imposed isolation was part of Jody's 106, bottom-1-106. Yeah. The self-imposed isolation was part of Jody's twisted rings of responsibility concept. If you were distorted, you'd be stripped of every responsibility except self-improvement. No jobs, no community, no family, just you and Jody's teachings in a vacuum.

Solitary confinement, but you have to pay for the privilege, all in the name of healing. These separations typically last at least six months. The minimum time Jody deemed a necessary to demonstrate genuine change. Her logic that is a good business model, by the way. Right, I know, I know. Again, that's what I mean. Every sketchy business model, Jody's like, boom, she's on it. Her logic was that anyone could fake remorse or make short-term adjustments,

but sustaining change for half a year proves sincere transformation, and a better paycheck for her. Adults were essentially put on probation in their relationships, expected to prove their worth to Jody to earn back the privilege of family closeness. The six-month rule also applied to kids, and any significant transgression could result in a half-year sentence of restricted privileges, increased scrutiny, and constant pressure to demonstrate change. Yeah.

Like, and that's how I met, you know, my contact is just he was sleeping on a mattress in his office because he was under that six-month probation, right? Jeez. Yeah. And so now we understand why Kevin didn't see his family for an entire year. Yeah, yeah. And you have to understand Adam Paul Steed's story to maybe have a chance to understand at understanding Kevin.

Because not only would Jody say, you know, it would start with, okay, husband moves out and sleeps in another room. And then it was, oh, husband relapsed, no hugging, no touching, no kissing, no emotional connection for six months. And then inevitably, the husband's sleeping alone in a room, night after night, with no sexual connection at all. Of course he's going to relapse and at some point masturbate, right? And then that's a relapse.

And that's when Jody would encourage her support groups to pressure the wife to kick the husband out of the house. So that's kind of like central to the con. But then what Adam Paul Steed's story tells us is that if you as a husband, and it wasn't always the husband, but I think it was mostly the husband, because Sherry does talk about kind of this being a male, hating. sort of group. Kevin says that. When he comes home from one of the first things, he's like, it's just a bunch of man hating women. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's, and, and at that point, if the man ever stands up to Jody and tries to defy her, Jody ends up convincing the wife that the husband is sexually molesting the kids and then starts to get police potentially involved.

And that's why, and again, you know, sometimes people get after me for thinking that I'm a Kevin apologist. I think we can talk all day long about Kevin's accountability. But how could, how could Kevin have been absent for six months to a year? I'll tell you how. If Jody had him afraid that if he violated Jody's isolation rules, that she was going to turn him into the police as a child sex abuser, that's, I mean, I'm speculating a little bit, but that putting the pieces together from the contact that I made at my retreat

to Adam Paul Steed's story and others, I can see why, even with lesser things, Kevin would have been terrorized. He wanted his family back. If he wanted his family back, he was supposed to stay away. Dumb? Yeah, that's what Jody, that's what Jody did.

Yeah, it's incredible. Right, if you want your family back, stay away from it. Is it crazy? Yeah, but that's, that's her tactic. Yeah. And also, just a couple of things that, you know, one of the things I learned from Adam Paul Steed's interview is actually the first step that Jody does is she puts the men in a separate group, men in one group, women in another group. And when you first go to group, all these men are already convinced that they are addicts, that they are bad, that they're shameful, that they're engaging in these horrible behaviors. And they're essentially the MO of the group is to get the new

person on board with this same way of thinking. Because if I remember correctly, Adam Paul Steed said that he went into this men's group and they were all, you know, confessing like in an AA type of situation, you know, hey, my name is Matt and I masturbate and I'm an addict. You know, Adam was thinking to himself, that's not me. I'm not a pedophile. I'm not, you know, distorted. I don't masturbate that much. Whatever it was. And then he said just gradually, he realized that he had to accept that. Otherwise, there were going to be repercussions from Jody. Like if you don't accept that this is bad about you, then we're going to take the next step and it's going to be more invasive. So it starts with this idea of self-betrayal. It starts with gaslighting. It starts with making. you doubt your own experiences. And then it goes all the way, you know, to isolation and, you know, all of these repercussions. And I think, and I'm obviously not a man, but John, maybe you can lend to this. I think a lot of men are terrified in this day and age of being wrongfully accused of some kind of sexual misconduct. You know, I've spoken to so many men that that's like one of

their greatest fears. And so they'll do just about anything to avoid even the appearance that something like that is going to be happening. Absolutely. While we're on this topic, let's just jump to page 199. And again, any of you jump in, we're kind of jumping around a little bit here. But on page 199, Sherry talks about how Jody saw sex everywhere. It starts with literally Jody saw sex everywhere. Sure.

Jody saw sex everywhere in every interaction, every glance, every flaxse, every fleeting thought. In her mind, the world was a cesspool of lust and distortion, a roiling sea of desire, a 21st century Sodom and Gomorrah with only her twisted version of truth offering any salvation. I think the next paragraph is just a part of me pitied her. A repressed, self-loathing, deeply damaged woman trapped in an environment in which she felt compelled to conceal her true nature. Surrounded by women she couldn't have, women who were married to men she resented, In her mind, there was only one path to justice, crush the sperm donors, and liberate the females.

Wow, that's such a, that's such a paragraph. Right. Yeah. Very well written. So I guess there was that obsession with is Jody, you know, lesbian or was, was, was Ruby lesbian or were they bisexual? Did you all even want to talk about that? Is that just too dumb or? No, no, it's, I think it's important.

I think it's an absolute question that everybody's had. Every interview you and I have done have talked about this. Everybody's wondered. And Sherry certainly delved into it, which is queer. Yeah, is Jody queer. And is her mother, is Ruby. And she actually also discusses Ruby's sexuality. And the answer is yes.

The answer is they were physical. And at one moment, I mean, I hope I'm not jumping too ahead. I'm the one just talking off of memory. I don't have the books in front of me. That's good. That's great. But one moment is that Jody moves in with the family. She moves out of Pages home.

She mentions Paige. Paige, you, Paige Hannah, right? Yeah. I don't think she says Paige Hannah, but we know it's Paige Hannah. She moves out of Pages home and into the Frankie's home. And she is staying in Sherry's room. So Sherry gets kicked out of her room. Can I just pause and say how ridiculously unethical it is for a therapist or even a coach to be living with their clients?

I know. Well, not only that, but in the same bedroom. So she takes over Sherry's room and it's Ruby and Jody's room. And nobody's allowed to go in there unless you text first. Your kid, your kid's a senior in high school. It's your last year with your kid. And you're going to kick them out of their bedroom so that some weird stranger can come live in their bedroom? The therapist with who's going to then be with your mother in your bedroom.

And that nobody was allowed to go in there unless you texted and that Sherry goes in there once and she notices massage, oils and candles and all these things and she's like this looks like somebody's honeymoon sweet and then she does her thing and then she goes in there once and i can't remember oh no she she sees one in the middle of the night she's up late she watches a ruby come out in a robe with her hair disheveled and looking with a smile on her face readjusting her robe and then go back in thinking that nobody saw her do that and and that she does and then in the end jumping ahead reads her read stuff on the laptop

that she got during that search that Kevin was mad that she grabbed some things she saw confirmation of their physical relationship so that we can now know that they were physical and then Sherry she speculates that her mother too is private

in being you know queer so there's your confirmation I mean if you didn't I don't know if any of us needed more confirmation I think we've all had a lot of confirmation, but there you go, their relationship was physical. And those are the things that Sherry saw and experienced. There wasn't a note. This is, again, jumping ahead at the information that was gleaned from the laptop, that she says something like Ruby complained that

she like had to be a giver, but like wasn't a receiver or something like that. And I think that Sherry, it was kind of an interesting little note in the book. That's important. I forgot that. But it made me think, and perhaps this is a different time to talk about this, but, or there's another time to talk about this, but I wonder, I wonder how, like, was Ruby really queer? Or do you think she was just under the spell of Jody? And I don't know. I don't know.

It's interesting. Sherry speculates that she is. So I'll just, yeah, I think we all wonder that. According to Sherry, that's what I think was interesting. I think more so than Jody, because I think we all kind of knew, is that she speculates that her mother is indeed, but it's private. That was interesting, according to Sherry. And what you just brought up, Mindy, is important that the thing she reads, where she realizes that they have a physical relationship is that Ruby is upset that Jody is always asking for physical and what about Ruby. Like she wants that too.

And so she's shocked that all of a sudden her mother is the giver in this relationship. Yeah, like the tables had turned. The tables had turned. Yes. Yeah. And then there's also the scene where Sherry comes back home and wants to go into her bedroom. And Kevin says you're not allowed to go into there unless you text first. Yeah.

Yeah. Her own bedroom. Her own bedroom too. So Sherry can't go to her own bedroom per Kevin. Because no one can go into the bedroom with Ruby and Jody and Pam, right? Yeah. Unless they text first. And I'll say this too.

You know, Sherry discusses this too. Like she just can't believe it. Sherry seems to have a lot of disgust, I mean, rightfully so, about Jody. She talks about her appearance. She talks about the way she eats. She talks about, you know, the khaki shorts. And she just can't believe. I mean, you can tell that Sherry is sort of a,

hauled by this person in many ways that now is like living in her bedroom with her mother. Like she just can't wrap her mind. What is happening to her family? Like how did this happen? I just think that Jody's a walking contradiction. She talks about health and taking care of yourself, but they're going to Dairy Queen every single day. And she talks about, you know,

Jody eating, consuming gallons of ranch dressing. And she doesn't keep herself clean. And also she, I mean, not to shame this, but Jody was self-harming with, with, you know, scars and cuts up and down her arms. And she would always wear long sleeves to cover the self-harm. Not to shame it, but just so the physician needed to heal thyself. Keep going. Yeah. No, I just think, I just think there's just so many contradictions.

And in the methods and the principles that she was preaching as part of connections that she herself, the rules didn't apply to her. And I think you find that in cults. The cult leader can do whatever they want, but they're still going to preach these principles to their followers. And I'm always just, whether it's Keith Renary or Elron Hubbard or Warren Jeff's, like, cult leaders are just predictably dorky or dweeby looking so often.

Throwing Chad Daybill. Throwing Chad Daybill. If we're going to go there. Yeah. No, I know. I know. So it seems to rare that it's just like a really dynamic. Right.

There's something there. Yeah. No, I know. I agree. You don't think Chad's cute. Fascinating. I'm kidding. I'm sorry.

It's dark. Okay. No. All right. I just dropped all my pages. Okay. So really quickly, is it worth mentioning the vision? of Glory stuff.

Is it worth mentioning? How dare you say that you get the band back together and then you say, is this worth mentioning? Give Lauren the book. I think it's on page 158 where it gets mentioned. But if y'all want to say anything in terms of background or memory, let's go there. Since this is the visions of glory, chat and Lori Dayball team. Yeah, and which chapters is? It's a couple times.

Chapter 26. Okay, this is 26. So I'll read this. And then we also have to read some, the chapter, it's the true crimes chapter two is important. Yes, very important. Okay, so we'll get there. So tell me where to start. I see Charles a lion underlined.

That's important. That's important. We can't forget Charles. But where do I, where does it start? Here, let me find. I mean, the visions of glory part is like the second main paragraph. Oh, there it is. We're introduced to Pam Botcher, the friend.

And they become kind of a, she calls them the three musketeers of the apocalypse. but yeah. Oh, yeah, okay, so they're talking about the apocalypse. You know, yeah, I'll start there a little bit. So, yeah, let's start with the apocalypse because I think that's important. So Pam, Jody's oldest and dearest friend. We know Pam Botcher, that's where the older siblings are found. High up in connections was always popping by with a case of soda and a high-pitched hello that set my teeth on edge. The three of them, Ruby, Jody, and Pam would hole up in my old bedroom for hours on end. They went boating in Lake Havasu in Arizona for a week and would make little shopping trips down to Mexico coming back with grocery bags full of pills. When I asked about it,

Ruby claimed it was all part of their grand plan to stockpile antibiotics for the end of days. Put a pin in that. We've got to talk about that. It was as if they had formed their own exclusive Apocalypse Collective and the rest of us were decidedly not on the list. They, like many Doomsday Preper, in the LDS Church were obsessed with a book called Visions of Glory, published in 2012. The book, not endorsed by the mainstream LDS Church, was a wild ride of near-death experiences, apocalyptic visions, and doomsday prophecies. It became the basis for many LDS prepper fantasies, feed into their fears and justifying their extreme preparations.

The books contents range from new age style spiritual encounters to graphic descriptions of impending disasters. Foreign invasions, viral plagues, massive earthquakes, devastating the entire United States, including our own Wasatch Front. It was all very trippy and apparently very convincing to Ruby, Jody, and Pam. So. And tell you if I'm wrong. I don't know if I remember this right, but when this story was breaking, In our episode, were we speculating the visions of glory might have been involved? We talked about it.

We showed, we showed. So when this story broke, that was actually the first episode that John and I did was showing, by the way, Tom Harrison is absolutely connected to Jody Hildebrand. In Tom Harrison is absolutely connected and this Visions of Glory book to Chad and Davey and Lori Valo, to Jody Hildebrandt and Ruby Frankie and to Tim Ballard, that beginning story that's still developing. And we went through all of it. The one thing we did struggle with was we could show that Jody Hildebrandt was absolutely connected to Tom Harrison and to Visions of Glory.

But we had a hard time pinpointing Ruby Frankie. So now we know with the fact that absolutely they were into this book. And another thing that's really important to point out to, I've been to Jody Hildebrand's house. I visited it and it is a prepper enclave. And I even asked, you know, I was there. She had food storage. And when we talk about these pills in Mexico that they claimed that they were storing up, one thing I have learned in these very sort of extreme prepper groups that are, you know, part of the LDS faith,

but these LDS members that are sort of finding their little on claim of LDS preppers is they are not just stockpiling food. And I think this is important to explain. They do stockpile drugs, including illegal drugs, as well as firearms, because they believe that they are going to be trading them in the last days too. Using them, trading them, exchanging them. This is not just, I guess I just want to point that out when, because I, like I said, I have been into kind of delving into these extreme groups. They are not just stockpiling food and water.

They are stockpiling a lot of very interesting things because they're ready to barter in the last days. Yeah. So I wonder, because you read about what's going on in these rooms behind closed doors in the Frankie home in Springville. And I wondered if they were taking psychedelics and they were sneaking off to Mexico to get psychedelics. And then that's true, too.

And then let's throw that into the whole like. But it was antibiotics as well. Is that right? Probably. Let's throw in the, yeah, they were probably stockpalling them. And then we can also assume what else they were doing with them. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day.

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That's happy H-A-P-P-Y mammoth, M-A-M-M-O-T-H.com. Just use the code hidden true crime at checkout. That's code hidden true crime. Use that with happy mammoth.com for 15% off today. I know there's been some speculation about Kevin's police interviews. Yes. When he was talking about witnessing with his own eyes that, you know, he had seen like plates fly across the room at the House and Ivins and really strange things. And maybe there's some speculation that perhaps. he had, you know, purposely or inadvertently taken psychedelics that were causing him to maybe see some of that stuff. So that's a theory that I've seen. Yeah. And my question when I heard about

that was, was he being given psychedelics without his knowledge? Yeah, that's what I said, either, you know, purposely or maybe or not inadvertently or, you know, without his consent. I remember you interviewing my cousin Braxton, who is an extreme prepper. Yes. And he talked about some of this, about storing things that, you know, a lot of preppers had alcohol and cigarettes and things like that that they were storing. I remember him telling us as a family at one point that he had hundreds and hundreds of pounds of coal buried in his front yard, you know, because fuel sources and whatever. So I guess it doesn't surprise me to hear that they're also going to Mexico to get drugs and to store those types of things as well. But it's troubling. And Lauren, why does it matter?

Why does the visions of glory connection here matter? Why does the prepper connection matter? Like other than just moving, we made a connection. Great. Well, I'll tell you why it matters from Sherry's book. And actually, I'm sitting here looking for my phone that I had because I do have the screenshots that I wanted to share from the next chapter that talks about vision. Is it right?

Is it right? Under your right, by your knee? That's not your phone? By my knee? This is the battery charger that was once on. You have it in a crack. I know. I've totally had it.

I've totally had it. You did it. It was under your leg right there. Okay. Did you do a screenshot of a part of the book? Yeah, I have a screenshot. So why does it matter? I'll tell you why it matters.

Okay. Well, Sherry will tell you why it matters. Okay. Yeah. Thank you, Sherry. So, all right. Okay. So this is from the chapter, true crimes.

Shortly after, so from Sherry's own words, shortly after moving into my new shared apartment, I sat with my new roommate. in the living room watching a true crime documentary, sins of our mother. Pause really quick, that's actually a documentary on Netflix that I worked on. My husband, John, is in it. Dr. John Matthias is a psychologist in that. It's on Netflix.

And I also suspect that maybe now I understand a little bit of the play on words with her book. Hers is the house of my mother, and this is sins of our mother. So I'm speculating there, though. So I sat with my new roommates in the living room watching the true crime documentary, sins of our mother. It was about an LDS couple, Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell. They had gotten married super fast after both their spouses died under sketchy circumstances. Chad's former wife, Tammy Daybell, died in October 2019 under suspicious circumstances, and Lori's former husband, Charles Vallow, was shot and killed by Lori's brother in July 2019. In September 2019, Lori's two children,

Tiley Ryan, 16, and Joshua J.J. Vallow 7, were reported. missing. Lori and Chad married in November 2019 just weeks after Tammy Dable's death and while their kids were still missing. The couple were immersed in these same extreme religious beliefs and doomsday preparations as Jody and Ruby, and the way this family spiraled into darkness felt horribly familiar, their intense belief in the Second Coming and their obsession with Tom Harrison's visions of glory prophecies. It was all the same stuff, Ruth's. Ruby and Jody were always going on about. But it wasn't until watching that documentary that my hope faded into the darkest thoughts I'd had yet,

that Ruby and Jody were just as unhinged as Chad and Lori, if not worse. If we don't do something soon, my siblings are going to die. Why does this matter? Because we are seeing a copycat and repeat crime. And I have always seen that I do believe these children were about to die. I do believe that if that little boy had not escaped, they would not be here today, and they were dubbed that they had demons in them. And this book is affecting a lot of people's extreme beliefs. And we have not just seen it once now.

We have seen it twice. And why does it matter? This is why Sherry Frankie realized it in that moment. My siblings are about to die. This book is concerning. It is not the end. all. There are many facets here. Of course, I agree. It's not the book's fault, but it is a book that the LDS Church is not openly discussed. They outed Julie Rose books. I want to point that out. People say, well, they don't ever out a book. They don't ever talk about books that aren't mainstream books. No, they do. They made sure everybody knew that Julie Rose books were not to be read, and they called it spurious material. They have not yet said this book is concerning. This book is problematic and that in itself concerns me.

And it is something that is on my mind all the time and something that I have angst about, angst about all the time. This matters. And we need to be talking about it and be aware. Yeah. And in the reporting we did on our Visions of Glory episode, you know, we found out that not only was visions of glory at least across a year to the most sold book in Utah, according to Thrift books, but that Tom Harrison,

and by the way, the Book Visions of Glory doesn't have Tom Harrison's name. It has a pseudonym. Spencer. Spencer, right? But we know Tom Harrison's the author. Not only do we now know that Tom Harrison was directly connected with Neil A. Maxwell, and likely Mormon Apostle, late Neil A. Maxwell, but that likely Tom Harrison has been consulting the Mormon Church as a mental health professional

at a very high level for multiple decades, and that not only when this book started to be viewed as a problem, was Tom Harrison not disciplined or excommunicated, we found out that he was made a bishop. Yeah, they threatened excommunication. He wrote a letter, he apologized, and then he was made a bishop, and he has always worked closely with the LDS Church,

including mental health with missionaries, if a missionary is ready to go. And when you bring up Brad Wilcox meeting with Jody Hildebrand or other leaders, I can't help but wonder if Tom Harrison was helping that Tom Harrison started the eternal core, bringing God back into therapy. He worked closely with many LDS leaders. And I have also always speculated, why hasn't the church talked about this book?

Why haven't they said, this book bad? Don't. You know, yes, it's not so. a Desra book that, but they haven't said like they have other books that this is a bad book. And it makes me wonder, who's friends with who here. I am very concerned that this book and, you know, yes, you're right. And then we also know as a fact that Chad Daybell was indeed meeting with Tom Harrison, as was Julie Row. So Chad Daybell was meeting with Tom Harrison, Ruby, or sorry, not Judy Hildebrandt was meeting with Tom Harrison.

This book has a cult following within this place. This book talks about death and destruction and earthquakes and a lot of demons. Evil spirits, demons, entering you. Possession. Possession. It's something that is very, yeah, I keep saying that. I'm now, I'm repeating myself. Runs and repeat is very concerned.

And the church knows that I communicate people because they excommunicated me for doing a podcast. No, I don't know if anyone who's killed anyone because of Mormon stories, or at least associated with it. Touch wood, like knock on wood. But they know how to excommunicate Sam Young for advocating for the sexual abuse of children, Natasha Helfer, for promoting sexual mental health practices. They know how to excommunicate somebody if they're causing trouble. To this date, we know of no negative consequences to Tom Harrison for any of this. Not that we wish ill upon him, but retract the book, take the book away. Pressure John Pontius's widow to take it down, the church could shut this book down if they wanted to and they don't.

But they won't. And the reason I believe that they won't is because it supports their theology. It is a faith promoting book as far as they're concerned because it supports the idea of, you know, the afterlife of the end times. It supports the idea of profits coming back from dispensations and ruling. And in the back of the book, there is a very similar vision that was given by a prophet of the LDS Church, and it supports that vision. And so if the LDS Church were to denounce this book, it would destroy some people's faith. It would be denouncing its own doctrine of theology. Its own

doctrine, its own theology, and that's the number one reason why they won't do it. Well, you know, I disagree because I think, I'll disagree with it because I think Julie Rosebook also supported some of that theology, and they disowned that book. I, and I think they were clearly concerned about the book when it first came out because they threatened excommunication according to the letter that Tom Harrison had a right. I don't think Neil Maxwell would have been happy with it necessarily. That's personal opinion. So I'll do that.

I think that they don't because they know many people believe in it. Too many people. Too many people. Yeah. Love it. I do agree with the faith promoting. I do agree with the faith promoting. But they have said that certain books,

even if they promote certain faith-inspiring things, don't meet all doctrinal requirements. And I think that Julie Rose book inspired people in a similar way and they denounced that book. So what is it about this book? I think that too many people love it and there are too many people supporting it. And it makes me wonder who is supporting it. Yeah. That's what I wonder about. Yeah. I agree with you. Yeah. And it's another one of those areas where if the church makes a definitive move in one direction or the other, they're going to lose a lot of people because some people love it. Some people hate it. And also I think an important point is that

when they did threaten Tom Harrison with excommunication, they said, you need to stop talking. You about the book publicly. You need to stop saying that it's literal. Because he's going around awards given firesides. Giving firesides. And we have recordings of those that we played on our last episode that we did about this. And Tom Harrison said, okay, I'll write a letter. And anybody who asks me about it, I'll say this isn't literal. It's not real. So faced with excommunication, he towed the party line. He did what the brethren told him to do. And they want to reward him for it. And now he's exactly, Megan. And now he's contradicting himself, though, because he tells some people This was all John Pontius.

There's nothing to do with me. You know, John Pontius, this is John Pontius of all. This is not what I told him. But then according to John Pontius' widow, who's publishing a website, she's saying, no, Tom Harrison supports this, and he's signing off on this website. So, so what's he said? And I think also the secret of underground sort of him being underground, makes it a little bit more enticing and exciting too.

Yeah. So publicly, he says, it's not real. The church told me to say that. It's not real. These are just my own ideas. And then in private meetings with Chad Daybell, he's saying, but it really is real. It really is real. Go ahead and, you know, your visions are just as real as mine. You know, I believe in the power of what God told you as well. And he's, you know, I remember the recording that you have on your channel, Lauren, of when likely Chad and Lori met in person for the first time where Chad is giving a speech at a fireside. And, Chad, Chad is giddily describing how Tom Harrison talks in this book about he can literally mold rock. And it's just clearly so fascinating and alluring to someone like Chad Bell. Yeah, Chad Daybell was clearly very fascinated with that. Well, let's talk about this. So your cousin treats that, sorry, Lori Vallow, your cousin Lori Valo treats that a book still like scripture.

Yes. And she's about to represent herself in her second murder trial of her husband, Charles Valo. And she still believes strongly in this book. I know that from many people now, multiple sources, who have communicated with her behind bars. I have seen the receipts, as we say. She is still preaching that book, believing strongly in that book and encouraging people to read that book. So if you want to know about what the gospel of Lori Valo is, you can know straight from Lori. And if you now want to know what the gospel of Ruby Frankie and Jody Hildebrand is, Sherry Frankie just told us.

And it is the vision of, Visions of Glory by Tom Harrison. Go Google, everyone, go to Google images and Google Lori Vallow Poolside, which is the photo when she was first confronted by police officers. She was served. What book is under her knee when she's poolside? If you zoom in, it will be visions of glory. So we've definitely beaten this horse dad. Yeah, well, no, yeah.

Well, I'm going to like throw one more thing out there. But the other thing about it is when it comes to poolside, I actually forgot what I was going to say. I was like, that needs to be said. And then you said, we'd have like, no, one more thing. And now I'm like having short your memory last. It was when she was poolside in Hawaii just after she had married Chad. And the police were for the first time. The kids are dead.

Like ex-husbands are dead. Right? Yes. And the police are coming to her to present her with papers that essentially say you have so many days to present your children or to produce your children or you're going to be arrested. And, you know, they ask her if she understands everything. She says, yes. So now she's, now she's going to be representing herself. And she's, we, you and I both have talked to people who are speaking with her during, in prison right now. And she has her copy of visions of glory. It is marked up just like a

Bible. She's been, Colby reported on his channel. Colby is Lori Bello's oldest son. And her only living child. Her only surviving. Her only surviving child. And Colby said that his mom is in prison with her little cohort of people that she believes that she's helping by preaching about visions of glory and by, you know, preaching her version of the gospel to these women who are also on death row. Yeah. And my memory never came back, so we'll move on. And then in like an hour, I'll raise my hand.

That's great. Mindy, you didn't say anything about Visions of Glory. I feel like it's been covered. We talked about it a lot. I appreciate some of the things. I mean, as I've said before on previous podcasts, Visions of Glory is the reason I started getting interested in the Daybell case, which, you know, has now kind of snowballed into these other, you know,

these other cases that we've covered because of my own family member who gave it to me and who firmly believed it and probably still. does. I know what I want to say. Okay. I know what I want to say. And it's actually, we all stalled long enough for Lauren. You're like, do, too, that was good. You guys. I saw the light. Teamwork. I saw the light flick on for you. It's actually about disinformation that's out there. Yeah. I want to, I want to just clarify something. So, because I have a moment when we, I came out with the letter that Tom Harrison sent me. And there's a lot of disinformation online about people that love this book and defend this book. And it's that the letter isn't real. So I just want to take

the opportunity to say, the letter was written by Tom Harrison in 2014. He sent it directly to me. He addressed the envelope. He wrote on it. It came from him. He signed it. And it came to me. There are a lot of people speculating that this letter isn't even real and that it was made up. So he wrote this letter in 2014, denouncing the book that he sent to me. And I just want to say right now, it is real and it came from Tom Harrison himself. And I stand as a witness that I have seen the letter. I've got three witnesses. I've seen the envelope.

I've seen the postmark. I've seen the address. But I still have it. That's the difference. I still have the letter. I got the letter. So it's not somewhere else now. Yep.

It's not hidden. It's not hidden. It hasn't been taken up from the earth by an angel. It still exists in the physical real form. I got the receipts. I got the receipts. Well, Julie's left. me on the scenes. So now maybe it's time to turn to, for me, what was maybe the darkest part of this book, which is the part about Derek, which I think was a surprise to, I mean, obviously we still have the incarcerations and the kids, but I think this is an okay place to talk about Derek. Is that all right?

Agreed. And Derek is a pseudonym, but does someone want to just kind of recap for those who haven't read the book yet? This is a spoiler. but we got to talk about it. We've got to talk about Derek. So for those who haven't read the book yet, who wants to kind of recap Derek? Do you want to do that, Mind? Goodness, I'm nervous to recap, Derek. You're the best equipped. Do we know where Sherry meets Derek?

I'll do a little description. So Derek, I assume that when Derek meets Sherry, he's in his mid-40s. He's living somewhere in Utah County. and she's just to say 15, 16 years old when they first meet. We don't know when they first meet. We don't know when they first meet. We don't know when they first meet. Well, it says in May 2021, right after I graduated high school, he asked for my help with

social media strategy for his company, offering me a side gig to help him put together videos for YouTube. Yeah, but they knew each other, though. They already, yeah. So we don't know when they officially met someone that she knew. Will you read that though? Yeah, read, yeah. He's married?

Go ahead. We should just read from the book. Well, she says, this is page 146 near the bottom. She says, my rebellions started small in ways that might seem inconsequential to an outsider, but felt monumental to me at the time. One of these small acts of defiance with my... Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet,

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Derek was high up in the church, a family man and landowner in his 40s. In May 2021, right after I graduated. at high school, he asked for my help with social media strategy for his company, offering me a side gig to help him put together videos for YouTube. Having just turned 18, it meant a lot to me that a respected adult like him had singled me out and recognized my skills and talents. After my first meeting with Derek, he couldn't stop singing my praises. And this quote, I have to say, this is quoting Derek.

This is Sherry quoting Derek. Quote, I have to say, Sherry, you really impressed me. He said once. the way you think, the way you see the world, it's refreshing. You're mature way beyond your years. And again, this is a man in his late 40s who is, I'm going to just say, grooming Sherry as a super impressionable, very vulnerable, very vulnerable, a young woman. As soon as I read that line, you're mature way beyond your years.

Just my prickles just went, oh, no, where's this going to go? Yeah. And then almost immediately she starts confessing. to him or confiding in him that she is unhappy in her family situation and he's like, oh, tell me more because that's a way that predators find a way to victimize people is by finding out their weak spots and the places that they're missing things in life. And then they show up and provide those things. And so he kind of employs her, correct?

Right. And so it's a working relationship, but very darkly it starts to turn sexual. Yeah, and this is a part that I start and probably should have highlighted and underlined as well, but this is where it starts to get dark. It says, he started doing little things, kind gestures that made me feel seen, cared for. This is on the next page, 148. A door dash delivery when I was having a tough day, a little shopping trip if I needed something, even if I didn't. One day he told me his voice low and intense, I'm the only one who really cares about you, Sherry. You know that right.

Each time he sent me gifts, I felt a little guilty, pressured somehow. This man who was showing me so much kindness, but for some reason, I wasn't always sure I liked it. One day I accidentally called him Dad, and that was the first time I saw Derek angry. I think we're more than that, aren't we? he said, his face a storm cloud. I didn't mean to offend you. Please don't be mad. When I eventually told Ruby that I was working with him, she had a fit and forbade me from seeing him any further. I have a really bad feeling about this guy, she said. Jody and I don't think it's appropriate for you to be working with him one-on-one like that.

Tell him you have to stop. Okay, sure. I'll stop talking to Derek. I lied. I was sick of people telling me what I should do. I was 18 and old enough to make my own decisions. Besides, I knew why they didn't like him. It was because Derek had been Jody's neighbor and probably knew too much.

That's why Jody didn't want him in my life. Well, guess what, Jody? Oh, well, guess what? Jody wasn't the boss of me anymore. And very soon, Ruby wouldn't be either, because I was going to college in the fall. which meant I was an adult now and no longer answerable to anyone except God. And then it goes on to talk about once Sherry leaves home and starts attending BYU is the first time, in my memory, that Sherry reports having a sexual encounter with Derek.

And it progresses and it progresses and it progresses to the point where he's tracking her location. he's asking her who she's with at any moment. He's calling her and saying, where are you, bringing your gifts, and the relationship lasts for a few years. Am I right? I think we're going to get pushback if we don't talk about that first encounter that they had. Do you want to read about it? You all know what I'm talking about, right?

Yeah, it's on page 165 is where it starts. I didn't dog ear it until 166 because that's when the real manipulation comes in. But it was basically her first day at college, if I remember correctly. You want to read it? Do you want to read it, Mindy? Sure. This is Chapter 27 and it's titled Dirty, Shameful, Ruined. So the lead up to this experience is she is her first day. and Derek, by this point, they've been seeing each other in this, you know, quote-unquote professional

scenario, although like Megan mentioned, there had been gifts and lots of compliments, and she had mentioned to him that she was uncomfortable with some of his compliments. But so they'd had a lot of contact with each other, a lot of texting, it sounds like, and stuff. So it's like her first day of freedom. She's back at her dorm room. and she says that suddenly a text lit up my phone. How's your first day, Sherry? It was Derek right on cue.

Want to stop by the office later once you're settled in? I got you some back-to-school gifts. Remember that North Face jacket you said you wanted? Wow, thank you. See you later. And then she describes, I don't remember driving to his building. I wasn't sure why I felt so nervous. In hindsight, perhaps it was my intuition,

trying to tell me something to turn around, go back to my college dorm and never talk to this middle-aged man again. But I didn't do that, and by the time I arrived, I was gasping for breath, my vision narrowing to a pinpoint. Should I just continue reading through this experience? Sherry, what's wrong? I heard him say as I stood at his door. I can't. I choked out my chest heaving.

I can't breathe. I think I'm having a panic attack. Derek guided me to the couch, his hand gentle on my shoulders. I tried to focus on his voice, on the steady rhythm of his words, but the panic was rising like a tidal wave, threatening to pull me under. Sherry listened to me, he said, his voice cutting through the static in my head. I think skin-to-skin contact

will help you calm down. Can I take your shirt off? I froze, my mind reeling. No, I thought, no, no, no, but my mouth wouldn't work. The words stuck in my throat. I shook my head, tried to push him away, but he was stronger than me.

His grip iron-tight around my wrists. I'm getting emotional, sorry. trust me he murmured his breath hot against my ear just let me help you sherry and then his hands were on me rough and insistent yanking my shirt up exposing my bra my skin i squirmed i fought but it was useless he was bigger than me stronger than me and the more i struggled the more powerless i felt see he said it's not so bad now just relax for me be a good girl somebody else can take over yeah i honestly i kind of think that's enough You know, I don't think we need to like detail everything else. But what was really telling for me and unfortunately familiar is that at the end of this,

she says she doesn't remember how she made it back to her dorm that night. It's like the dissociation, you know, that is so telling of such a traumatic experience that she doesn't even really remember getting back to her dorm and she just laid on her bed for hours and hours. And she says, I couldn't move, I couldn't think, couldn't feel. I laid there for hours, staring at the ceiling as the world went on around me. I heard the laughter, the chatter of my fellow freshmen through the walls. But I was separate, cut off. I've sinned, I thought.

I've ruined everything. It felt like a punishment, a divine reckoning for all the ways I had failed, all the ways I had fallen short. In my mind, my frozenness, my inability to move was a sign from God, a punishment for my transgressions, this is the spirit telling me, I need to repent by thought. And how heartbreaking that we as women who have been in those situations blame ourselves first and think we have sinned. We're the ones who did something wrong because that's what we're led to believe. It's what we're brought up thinking and understanding and being told by priested leaders. And we've talked before about the book The Miracle of Forgiveness and how it basically shamed people into thinking that

any transgression like this was partially your fault and subsequent talks by general authorities. Now, I know that they have dialed some of that back. And in recent years, there have been some other talks by general authorities saying it's not your fault. It's never your fault. But those of us who came up during that time period, those are hard things to unlearn. And I personally never talked about the first time that I was assaulted at college because I knew that my mother would say that it was my fault. I put myself in a bad situation. I never should have been there. If I hadn't done X, Y, and Z, it never would have led to that. And so I just think it's a harmful, unfortunate part of our culture, but I'm glad to see finally they're doing some repair on that,

you know, to try and tell victims it's not your fault. Lauren? I'm just listening. It's heartbreaking. This is really heartbreaking. This was the part that we brought up at the beginning, that there's a story and an experience near that has nothing to do with, you know, her mother. But Sherry's own story that she decided is to share.

And I'm grateful she shared it because it is, and it is heartbreaking. Like you, Mindy, you know exactly where it's going when she explains meeting this middle-aged man. And my heart goes out to her. I mean, I have a lot more to say, but I think Sherry's words. are best. I don't even know if there's anything else. I can say that Sherry doesn't. I think that everyone needs to read it and understand it. I agree. Well, and you say that it's the one thing that has nothing to do with Ruby, but I think it has everything to do with the way that she was brought up. You're right. She was brought up to not trust her own instincts. Obviously that panic attack

was her own instincts saying, you should not be here, run away. She saw the warning signs and the red flags, but she didn't trust them. And that's also part of Jody's tactic, too, to get people to not trust themselves and trust their own instincts. So when you're raised in that environment and put that together with the childhood emotional neglect, where your parents are not validating enough and they're not loving enough and you don't get that physical affection. And they're distracted. And they're distracted by this huge elephant in the room that is not you. It's like your parents' main goal in life is not your safety and well-being. It's the channel. It's subscribers. It's followers. It's views. It's money. It's brand deals. And I can speak from experience on this that

when you're raised in an environment like that, you crave any kind of validation or affection or attention that you get. And you'll take it wherever you can get it. It happened to me over and over because of that being raised in that environment where I didn't have the sort of underpinnings and the foundational love that I knew my parents cared about me and loved me. So I was willing to accept that kind of affection, attention from anybody. And so I'm just identifying so much with Sherry in a way I thought I never would, you know? I think it's important that to note just that after this happens, his like possessiveness and his control just really ramps up. He asks her not to talk to any boys at school.

He asks to have her share her location on her phone. He stocks her. Yes, he stalks her. And, you know, sometimes hundreds of messages a day, if I recall, she says in the book, phone calls. you know, it just becomes a really, really unhealthy experience and relation, I don't, I hate to even call it a relationship, but it's coercive control scenario for her. And there is, actually, I think we should just let people read the book to find out, you know, certain things escalate and, and, but I think one of the saddest parts of the book, it's chapter 31,

It's called a poison well. And it's where she's feeling like this situation for her is crazy making, but she was addicted to the scraps of validation that Derek gave her the morsels of support. And she finally, in a moment of desperation, decides to reach out to Ruby. And Ruby doesn't respond for 24 hours. And then tells her, you were very selfish in texting me. And then they decide to meet up for dinner where it seems like Sherry is, wanting to build up the courage to tell her parents about what's been going on with Derek.

And it just completely backfires. They call her selfish and they're not supportive. And to the point that at the end of the dinner, they invite her to pay for the dinner. And she's at this table in this restaurant sobbing over chocolate cake and then has to pay for the dinner. And then she ends that chapter by saying that Derek was yet another poisonous adult in my life. and my heart just went out to her so bad. I'm just like, there's just one adult that she can, that she can count on to be there for her. And there, and there is. And that's a, that's a bright spot of this story. Is there is a former teacher. And I don't know if this is a good time to talk

about him, but there is one former teacher that's not a predatory. And she describes this man as Mr. Haymond and his wife, and they become a safe haven for Sherry as this kind of saga progresses. So often when people are in their most vulnerable state, that's when people take, when predators can take advantage of that. It's just so heartbreaking that just one thing after another. You're right, that couple was wonderful to help her, though. Yeah. I want to point out one part, and this is kind of what we're all talking about here, page 189 where Sherry says, and she's talking about Derek and she's talking about, you know, ending her relationship with him. And she says, what irony. While all this was happening,

I was studying abuse of power in my college classes, learning about the dynamics of coercion, about the ways in which abusers groom and manipulate their victims. But even as I intellectualized these concepts, even as I wrote papers and participated in discussions about the insidious nature of abuse. I was unable to apply that knowledge to my own life. My brain wouldn't let me go there. So fascinating and heartbreaking. Yeah. I think it's maybe also thank you to all of you for being willing to share and to be so vulnerable. I think it's also worth mentioning that the Mormon church, there are reports with, you know, Jason Resendez and others of the Associated Press that and the Boy Scout you know a sexual abuse scandal they're kind of credible there's credible evidence to suggest that

the Mormon church has a sexual abuse problem per capita that rivals if not exceeds that of the Catholic Church so um that this is very Mormon the fact that a young girl is being groomed and not just groomed by some dark apostate uh community member who's hiding around the shadows this and Lauren, I think we agree that you were okay talking about this. Lauren knows, Lauren's been able to identify who Derek is. We're not going to say who he is, but she has identified it. He has held high levels of authority, authoritative positions, both in the church and in the community. Correct, yeah.

And that's all I'll say, but like very high levels. And Sherry mentions that this is someone that is not just a position of power. I mean, I guess that is a position of power, but someone who she should absolutely be able to trust, absolutely be able to trust in that is what's so. That's just so upsetting. And yes, exactly. And I want to say, yeah, when you have an isolated community and we're taught to trust one another. And I agree there's a big problem. Yes.

Thank you for sharing the statistics. This is someone that Sherry should have been able to. absolutely trust and never been concerned about. I keep repeating that. I mean, it's, it's so upsetting. Is there a chance you will be reporting at some point on the story? Yeah, if it becomes, yes. This probably will become a story. I think this is likely going to become a story. Because his position is such that words going to get out. It's going to likely become a story. And yes, she was technically over the age 18, so I don't know how that works, but I have a, I sense that this is going to become a story. And one thing we know about predators like this is that there's never just one

victim. Oh, that was one of my first thoughts when I read it. I'm like, this guy seems fine-tuned in his tactics. And I could be wrong, but it just seemed like, like, he knows exactly what to say. Yeah. Yeah. Or she might not be the only victim. Yeah. So because this is a Mormon story, is like, in addition to everything that's been expressed, I was tuned into the church discipline part because in part of the book, Sherry decides she wants to end. And, and she goes to her Mormon bishop. And one of the weird things was the bishop's response was, I need to talk to the state president.

That seemed weird to me because my understanding is that unless somebody has the Melchizedic priesthood and or has been endowed, the bishops can make the call on disciplinary action. So why was a bishop needing to consult with the state president about, a non-priesthood holding 18-year-old or 20-year-old woman, to me, the only reason that made sense was because she's a public figure, right? That's a good question. Yeah, and you know more about this than I do.

I didn't even think of the public figure thing. I thought maybe it was because what she was also implying was that someone in a higher power, like... No, that's true. Because, like, the bishop could have been like, dude, what do we do? Like, she's saying that this married man... Who's this upstanding member of the community who's had a high-level leadership in the church. Which is also upsetting because how I took it and you guys correct me wrong is that the bishop was like actually had more empathy understanding like listening to it one-on-one like, you're good, Cherry, like don't worry, this isn't your fault.

Then he somehow goes and talks to the state president for some reason that we're speculating on right now. That's why. And then it's the state president comes back and it's like, no, take her table, recommend away. She can't. So that goes to your point. Why are they talking about that? So if it is about the perpetrator and who did it, why then are they, why then is the state president now jumping in on what her punishment should be? Yeah, the power differential, even if she wasn't a minor.

Yeah. The power differential, the age difference, the fact that this guy was a high level leader in the church and a high level member. All of that speaks abuse, speaks, lack of consent, you know, speaks. outrageous power dynamics. So there's an argument to say she should have never had her temple recommend taken at all. Which again, I think the bishop understood that. But as you point out, for some reason, we don't know, again, why. The bishop then talks to the state president and the state president makes the call.

Like, why? Strange. Yeah. Yeah. And one of the most heartbreaking parts of this story is the fear of discipline. Yes. The fear of her getting her temple recommend taken away or not being able to take the sacrament or losing her church membership.

She had a real fear of that. That was one of the reasons that this carried on longer than it should have because I think she was so scared to go and talk to the bishop about what had been happening. And it's just so sad that her fears, she didn't lose her church membership, but her fears were realized when she finally confessed. And I think it's important to note that at least initially,

the bishop asked for the information on this person, that and in order to track him down for, you know, for potential discipline. And then the bishop reported back to her that this man had been tracked down, had been interviewed, denied everything, and was let off at that point. And there was no disciplinary action on him on the perpetrator, which, again, is very Mormon. Part for the course. The Mormon Church seems to have a history of punishing victims and protecting perpetrators.

It's inexplicable, really, or completely explicable if you understand how patriarchy's often work. Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. So by the time she finishes the book, Derek, in quotes, had not received any church discipline. In the afterward, she clarifies that since submitting the manuscript, he has received some discipline. my sense was, was the church, I'm speculating, caught when that this story was going to come out and knew that this is going to be a part of the book.

So then they hurried and took action so that it wouldn't, that wouldn't, that wouldn't, that wouldn't be left there of him having no consequence at all. Yeah, maybe so it's very vague as to why. That's, that could be true. I also wondered if it happened to somebody else. Do you know what I mean? Good point, Lauren. Yeah, like I wondered, because all of a sudden, like I just noticed that all of a sudden he wasn't. later, I mean, maybe it has to do it, but it felt like, okay, could there have been someone

else too? Could there have been another person that came for it? I don't know. And in the afterward, it doesn't even say what the, what the result of his disciplinary council is. Right. So he could have been. He was being brought before a formal disciplinary council. His calling stripped away. So now, yeah. A small victory, but not enough is what she says. He never lost his temple recommend. He never loses his temple recommend. Well, then that would say there was never a discipline. for adultery with a teenager and he's a late 40s man well she know she also applied something sorry

and i'm so sorry that we're all speculating on she also mentions though that like she almost felt like she wasn't believed because she had deleted all of her texts and so that he was he was denying it yeah so it could be that they just said they were like her word versus his word kind of a thing which always maddens me too you know she deleted all of his text and to get rid of everything into. And so then there's also not believing her. So they go talk to him. He's like, this doesn't happen.

Yeah. And they believe him over her. Yeah, or he may have just downplayed it and said, you know, we texted back and forth. She worked for me. You know, she was in a vulnerable position. She probably imagined more than actually happened. I stopped things. Probably wasn't the best idea.

I ended it. You know, I don't have any contact with her anymore. And so, of course, I think. we can equivocally say that... This episode sponsored by Forkful. Most meal delivery services promise healthy food, but look closer, and you'll often find cheap industrial seed oils hiding in the ingredients. Forkful does things differently.

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it's the male offender who is a respected community member who gets believed over the victim. 100%. And there's an incentive in the church to protect the perpetrators because if, let's just say, if he's had a high level of church leadership, or let's say he was a high level church leader while he was being a perpetrator, then that really reflects poorly on the church. Every calling is supposed to be, you know, divinely inspired of God. Why would God be calling him to a high-level priested position when he was grooming and abusing teenage girls?

So the church has an incentive to keep it quiet to not believe her and to protect him, again, like Ruby, because it'll hurt the church. And so the concern isn't about the victim or about the treatment of young women from, let's just say, a narcissistic church perspective, the church's primary interest is in protecting the church. Victims come third or fourth. This is why I say that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints operates in society as a narcissist. This is institutional narcissism. It's an institution that cannot recognize its own fault and has no empathy for the people. people that it harms. Very tough. Any final thoughts about Derek or have we said too much?

No, I think we're good. Okay. I mean, unless you guys have other thought, I'm good. I think I would encourage just just get the book, read the book. There's more to this story. Thank you, Sherry, for being so vulnerable. Thank you, Sherry, for being so vulnerable. That had to be very scary to outline this part of her story. But it's a big part. And I am grateful that she included it. although it was very, very difficult. One of the hardest parts of the book to read for sure. For me, it was. Yeah, probably the hardest.

Yeah. And I think maybe the other parts of the story were like more familiar and not to make them less horrific, but it just was such a surprise. And you just feel so much for her that she's already been exploited and victimized. And then for this to happen, it's just so awful. So yes, please get the book. Read about her story in her words. And yeah, that's all.

I think that's, I think we've said enough. Yeah. I just think the great thing about telling this story is that it's going to help so many other victims. It's going to help so many people recognize these patterns of behavior, of manipulation, of grooming. And it's going to help so many people who will resonate with this story and say, oh, my gosh, this happened to me too. I didn't realize that it was grooming. I didn't realize I was being manipulated. I didn't realize it wasn't my fault.

Yes, that's the number one thing. And it doesn't matter. We don't often hear about these stories. It doesn't matter that she's over 18. Clearly he, clearly that, you know. It's a clear power dynamic. Yeah, it's a clear power dynamic. And this happens so often.

Yeah. And it's just, yeah, difficult. And just to remind people, the book is the house of my mother, Sherry Frankie. Buy it. Not that we're ending, but just, that's just a plug. Really quick, I have to ask, do Ruby and Jody get any credit for, telling Sherry to stay away from Derek or not. Because they got that one right.

A lot of misses, but they got that one right. No, because I don't think their intention or motive was pure. That's it. I think that was a control issue. And don't make me look bad. Yeah.

It was a control issue. They didn't want, they wanted power and control over Sherry. And Jody was probably, you know, jelly over, you know. And it wasn't,

it wasn't, oh, tell me more. It wasn't, let's really dig into this. Tell me how you're really feeling about this. It was like, just don't talk to that guy. That's bad. Just cut it off. Don't, you know, and there was as far as we see in the book, there was no revisiting by Jody or Ruby about

how are things going with that. Were you able to end it? How did, you know, how did it go? And again, Lauren, I think 100% the motivation was not about Sherry and protecting Sherry. It was about protecting Ruby, protecting eight passengers, protecting the image and control. And control. All right. Also, broken clocks right, twice a day, right? I guess we'll give him one little win. I love that quote. Yeah. Okay.

So I guess we can turn to when, I mean, there's this period where Sherry's just like familyless. Like she can't even talk to her dad and her dad's on campus with her, BYU. Like there's this point where she bumps into him and like both of them just look at each other. Because I guess at this point, Kevin's been so terrible. by Jody that he is afraid to talk to his own daughter on campus. So she's living estranged from the family. Kevin is estranged. He's kicked out.

He's living. Even Chad was supposed to be living with Kevin. And then all of a sudden, Chad's not leaving with Kevin. Chad's estranged. And then like Sherry tries to reach out to Chad. And Chad's like, why are you bothering me? So clearly Chad was poisoned regarding Sherry. So like Sherry's just completely on her own family list.

Like one hero of the story is the family that kind of takes Sherry in. Yes. Correct. Is that a real name? Do we know if that's a real name? I think I might have seen on Reddit. I think it is. Yeah, I saw on Reddit.

Is it the real name? When she changes name, she says she switches names, but she doesn't. Yeah. And otherwise she uses real names. Yeah. Yeah. I was thinking I might have read that perhaps that wasn't the real name, but I could totally be wrong with that.

I don't know if she would want to respect their privacy or, but yeah. No, they were good people to that. Yeah. Yeah. But I think that's one of Jody's tactics, you know, the isolation and then the poisoning, the well of, and I think Kevin. Yeah. Yes, I think Kevin absolutely was poisoned against Sherry. And that's why I think it explains some of his behavior after the arrest and everything like that.

That chapter on just the break of Kevin really broke, it broke my heart. It's chapter 34. It was called facsimile father. And it just kind of lays out the all of the steps that Kevin. and had to take in the isolation, just like you were speaking to earlier with your friend that you met. You know, he's invited to leave. He's, he can't communicate with his kids. He can't, you know, I think that's at the time where they run into each other at BYU. And how horrible to, like, run into your own dad. They have to pretend like they don't see each other. It was just terrible.

And I want to say just one quote about that, about that. It was very poignant. I thought, While you're looking it up, I'll just mention that after I finished the book, I went and rewatch Kevin's arrest video. Or not sorry, not arrest video. His interview with the police immediately after the children were found. And that phrase was very haunting, invited to leave. He says to the police, you know, they say, why haven't you been around your family for so long? And he says, I was invited to leave. Yeah.

And that's Jody's term for getting the men out of the house. So this is just a brief journal entry from that same chapter. She said I went to counseling today and talked it through. I'm so angry with my dad for not sticking up for himself and for abandoning his family. I'm furious at Mom and Jody for ruining our family. I feel like a part of me has died and I will never get it back. I don't know how I'll ever recover or forgive them. I don't know how to help my siblings.

I don't even know how to help myself. And then at the end she says to this day referring to Kevin, it's a miracle to me that he survived the misery of his exile and didn't end at all. A chilling thought has crossed my mind since then. Maybe that's what Jody and Ruby wanted. Maybe they were hoping he'd just disappear forever. Chilling. Meaning die.

Right. And I have to wonder whether Jody's techniques have led to some deaths by suicide. Of course, it's speculation. I haven't heard of any. But Adam and Paul Steed certainly was driven to the point where other people, would have chosen that route. So, you know, I guess we'll see if anyone ends up coming out with that result. But to know that Sherry speculated that maybe Ruben and Ruby and Jody were hoping that that would be Kevin's end. It was just super sad and dark.

It did. Does anybody believe that Kevin just resigned his job at BYU? Like I found that hard to believe. Number one, if you're supporting multiple households, why would you ever resign your job? And then the other thing is, we know that Ruby wasn't, sorry, Jody wasn't beyond inserting herself between her clients and in Adam Paul Steed's case, his educational institution. But certainly she could have called Kevin's ecclesiascal leader and or BYU. and basically said, this guy's a child abuser, fire him or take away his temple recommend. Because why in the world would Kevin just like stop working at BYU? That could have happened.

But there's also talk of Jody having husbands quit their jobs as part of isolation, isn't there? Yes. During the isolation chapter, it was no, no friends, no jobs, no distractions other than working on yourself. How does she get paid if she gets her clients to quit their jobs? It just doesn't, but maybe. They can coach for her. Yeah. And then she gets 10%.

That was the other thing they want to is every time they coach someone else, she still gets 10%. Oh, Kevin was helping connections. Yeah. Whoa. And then did you hear that too? In the end, that's what's crazy too, is not only does she not make money teaching them how to coach. Once they go out into the world and do their own thing, she forever wants 10% of everything they ever do, ever. I'm like, what?

Yeah. It's wild. Because they would be nothing without her. Yep. Yeah, but also going back and watching that police interview was very telling. Like, he was very clearly brainwashed. He really believed that he deserved that isolation. He really believed that he said to the police, they said, why was it that you left?

And he said, it was because of the way that I treated my wife. I did not treat her well. But also, does he say I'm an addict, you know, I have an addiction and I'm trying to work on my addiction? meaning he masturbated. Related to pornography, he said. Yes. And so you can see very clearly in that interview, he believes what Jody told him about himself.

Yeah. Yeah, which is said. So, so. Once the book got to the part that we're all familiar with, which was the, you know, the St. George stuff and the crimes and the police showing up and the police. It was stuff that I was really familiar with. So I found myself,

feeling like, okay, I knew about that. I knew about that. You've like prepped. You've been prepped for it. Yeah. Was there anything about sort of like St. George, the police getting involved, the imprisonment, the police visiting, the Springville home, breaking in and all that, that was new or interesting to y'all that we haven't already covered in a previous episode?

And while I'm asking you that, think about that for a second. And yeah, anything that was dark or interesting? I thought it was interesting. I don't know if this had come out, but that, and maybe it had a recorded jailhouse phone call, but I think she might have said it was Ruby telling Kevin, but that on the way to the jail, Ruby didn't talk to Jody. Did you guys catch that? Did you guys know that?

Yes, I knew that. I don't know if I knew that. Megan knew it. No, I mean. No, it's, I just, I mean, I knew it for myself. I didn't talk to anybody about it. I don't, I didn't cover this on my channel or talk to you about it or anything. So I thought that was very telling, you know, the fact that Ruby already was distancing herself from Jody and getting ready to blame everything on Jody. In the police car. In the police car. Like already, she was ready to throw Jody under the bus. And then the other thing that, that I think, I was called to my memory after reading the book. was that Ruby's confession, her very tearful confession, hearing her described so accurately as a narcissist by Sherry's, you know, documenting her behavior reminded me that she's not capable of true introspection, of true remorse. And so that likely also was just an act in order to get

her sentence lessened. So I don't, I, when I first heard it, her confession and her tearful, you know, my six little ducks or six little chicks, I think, I wanted to believe that she truly was remorseful for what had happened. But in reading the book and the description of the way that she behaved all the time, I can't believe that now that that was genuine. You and John both wanted to. I remember that. You were like, that day, you were like, Oh, man. She's crying. I know.

Yeah, you guys. Ruby's crying. She must be sad and remorseful. Sherry didn't buy it for a minute. Neither did you, Lord. Neither did you. You called it, Lauren. But no, but John, too, like my John.

Oh, okay, okay. Dr. Well, John, you guys are both doctors too. It gets really complicated. Dr. John, my John. My John. That's what he actually stated. There was no apology, even though she said, my little duck.

She never said, I'm so sorry for it. I did to them. And then she said, I should have protected you. I'm still not saying, what I did was wrong. And then that's when My John said, you know, Jody gave her permission. She did exactly what she wanted to do. And she talked like it was some Emmy Award speech. Thank you to this person.

She actually thanked the police officer that arrested her, but she didn't thank her children again. She didn't thank her little son for escaping, for example. But thank you to the police officer. I mean, she was playing to her audience. And, but I remember that. It was very performative for sure. So way to go, Sherry for like, yeah.

Yeah. Once I listened to Dr. John's analysis of that, I was like, oh, you're right. I fell for it again. You know, somebody had crocodile tears. And I was like, oh, I want to believe that they really. I admire. I think that we should always get people to benefit of the doubt. And I do too.

I admire. I'm just teasing you guys. I don't know. I, there's a part of me that is kind of like, you know, my harsh inner critic that's like, Megan, you dummy, you grew up around narcissists. You've been surrounded by these people, your entire life, and yet you still want to believe that there's a possibility for them to redeem themselves somehow. Yeah, you want everyone to have redemption. It's true. I was struck by how both Jody and Ruby, if I'm not mistaken, compared themselves at different times, either to Christ

or to Joseph Smith or both. Did you all notice that? Yeah. And those are in some recorded jailhouse phone calls and they do. A call to Chad. A call to Chad is where Jody, or excuse me, Ruby compares her like drinking from the bitter cup, you know, compares herself to Jesus Christ and, and Sherry is astounded. And I'm just going to throw out because this is my thing, but so does Lori Valo and Chad DeBow and so does Tim Ballard. And I just, yeah, Tom Harrison. This is a little pattern here. There's a pattern. I want to give a quick shout out to the neighbors, those neighbors that, oh my gosh. Which neighbors in St. George?

The Springville neighbor, well, clearly the neighbors in St. George that helped facilitate the rescue of the kids. And the book doesn't really talk about that, which is good. It was interesting. It was Sherry's story. It was Sherry's story. She's like, that's my, my sibling story to tell. Shout out to the, the Mr.

Haymond and Mrs. Hammond who became a safe haven for her. And also those alert neighbors in Springville who texted Sherry and just said, Sherry, It looks like your mom got rid of your dog. Sherry, it looks like your mom took your kids out of school or your siblings out of school. Sherry, it looks like your mom's moving. You know, like these alert neighbors, I'm so grateful for them. And I think it's important to note that Sherry did try to reach out to child family services or DCFS on more than one occasion.

And it was difficult for them to make a case based on the evidence, based on the free range parenting law. And Sherry seemed very frustrated about that. and I shared her frustration. Yeah, the whole time, I'm like, where is DFS, DCFS? CCFS. Yeah, I also want to say, you know, in my career as a teacher, I was a mandated reporter. And so I did a lot of working, unfortunately, with the Texas version of DCSF. Does I say that right?

I know. Why is it so hard? Why is that? Department of Child and Family Services, DCFS. Yes. Yes. And so I just want to give a plug for anybody who is in a situation where you witness something that could be abusive to just say something, just make the report and do it,

because what these family services individuals need is a pattern. Yeah. And they need documentation. And they need multiple reports in order for something to happen. I think this case is a prime example of that where viewers of eight passengers were calling in and reporting. And that was the beanbag incident. You know, they were calling in and reporting it and saying, you know, we should look into this. And I guess people did come and visit the home. Ruby put on her little show. They were like, ah, nothing to see here. Right. So it is so easy for abusive parents to get away with abuse for those reasons. So if you see something, please say something. Please report it. Even if you think, oh, it could be nothing. Well, guess what? If it is nothing, they'll find out it's nothing.

But if it's not nothing. And it goes on the record. Exactly. as the first report. It goes on the record. And if you don't report it, it's never going to get seen. The problems aren't going to go away. That was probably one of the most heroic things Sherry did, because obviously Ruby and Jody cared about their image, you know, global celebrities, a big business built on their reputations.

From the very beginning, we talked about it. It was all about appearance. It was all about projecting perfection. So what could be more horrific? or scary, what could be more horrific for Ruby or more scary for Sherry to turn her mom in to Utah Department of Child and Family Services multiple times, knowing that her mom would likely find out, which she did. And then she faced the wrath of her mom saying, how dare you turn your own, You're a traitor.

Doesn't Ruby call Sherry a traitor at some point in the book for turning the family in? And by the way, how did Ruby ever find out that it was Sherry that turned her in, at least one of the times? Maybe Ruby just assumed that it was Sherry, you know, because of the information that was given. But yeah, that was incredibly courageous of Sherry to be willing to do that. But I think we also see, especially towards the end of the book, you know, from the time where she says something's going to happen to my siblings. they're going to die. Her concern for her siblings is just through the roof. And I think she's, she's so anxious about it that she feels like, okay, I can do something to help here. And so she makes

those reports. And I didn't realize that on the day that the police went into the Springfield home, that was when Sherry was there that day. And she was just beside herself worried that they were going to find bodies. You know, she was so anxious about, please tell me, are they okay? Are they dead? She was expecting body bags. I mean, it was, it was really terrible. Yeah, that was, and she did post to social media that day with just the one word caption of finally. Yeah. And that's really poignant, I think. Yeah. And that's how the book starts where she, she talks about this started on social media. It should end on social media, too. Well, I've got a couple of couple like final questions. Are there any other moments in the book that y'all wanted to make sure

we cover before we do just a couple closing questions? I think we covered so much of it, but I just want to reiterate, just go buy the book and read it. Please support Sherry. There's so much that we couldn't cover. I mean, we could keep talking for another three hours or four hours, but there's just, there's a lot in there that I think it's really important for people to hear and know, especially if you've been fans of eight passengers or followed this case. I think I think this is, it's groundbreaking, it's brave, it's vulnerable, it's very well written, and I can't say enough good things about Sherry or about this book. It's very well written.

Very well written. A couple comments from our viewers and listeners, Unexcited says female panelists' appreciation fund. So people are loving that we have female panelists. I'll make sure they get that. Zachary's mama writes, Curiously, not being brought, I think we already read that one. one. So let me go on. We read that one too. Let's see. Sorry. Thank you to,

okay, now we're at the, now we're at the parts we haven't read. Sorry, one more second. So thank you to my Mrs. Lonely Hearts and Christina Ward. I promise that all the super chats would get read. So Rebecca Simmons writes, thank you so much for continuing to. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the Internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers, spammers, even stalkers. It's why you get endless robocalls and why ads seem to follow you everywhere.

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slash remove cover the Frankie story. I've been following the story since June and this means a lot to me. Thank you, Rebecca. Marta Herbert writes so proud of Sherry for breaking away from the generational abuse. The Griffith's family was abusive. I don't know what Marta, what she knows, but that's March's opinion. Thank you for sharing. J.C., nevermo in Utah. Grateful to these amazing women and host John for covering this more. Kudos to Sherry for speaking out LDS purity culture and rigid gender ideology is unhealthy and ripe for abuse.

Thank you for ATC and advocacy for change. Do you all know what ATC is? No, no. Not sure. Okay. Dewey Loves Duckies, writes, this show introduced me to Lauren and Megan, who I now follow. I love Mormon Stories podcast, not mass state police, John Maven, Mindy, and All Associated, your amazing, brilliant people. Thank you, Dewey loves duckies.

Thank you, Danny Claw, for your support. Troublemaker Baker writes, Sherry, quote, I'm most happy about everyone hearing about my dad's story. It's disgusting that people assume he was a part of it after his own kids have testified against that. And then people still say it's a lie. F those people. I'm not sure. That's a quote from the book.

That's a quote from the book. That's like a recent Snapchat from Chad, I believe. Oh, is that from Chad? I'm pretty sure that's from Chad. Troublemaker Baker is a moderator from my channel. And she often will quote things. What is she quoting? I've got a screenshot of that.

I believe it's from Chad, a recent post from chat. Okay, because it's so sherry. This one has... Oh, right. Okay, yeah, thank you for my moderator. I don't know if that's Maven or Julia. But it's Chad. Okay, so let me read it again now in Chad's voice.

Chad. The question was, how do you feel about being able to put out your story? And this is his response. Okay. So Chad says, I'm most happy about everyone hearing about my dad's story. What? Kevin.

Okay. Yeah, but it's Sherry's story. No, but is this in response to them coming out with an episode where the three of them are going to talk publicly about them? Well, they are going to be on a docu series that premieres in February, and it's been confirmed that it's three episodes of 50 minutes each, where at least Kevin, Chad, and Sherry are all participating on this docus series that's on Hulu. slash Disney. And so I think that he was answering questions about that docu-series. And so maybe he's referring to, I'm glad that this docu-series will give my dad, Kevin,

the opportunity to speak. I think he's feeling very defensive of Kevin. Right. And a lot of people accuse Kevin. And I think that even Sherry's book also shed a little bit more light on where Kevin was. And so I think that Chattison... Yeah.

I think it ends sounding like they're repairing their relationship, you know, as a family. So. Okay. Well, thank you, Troublemaker Baker, for that. One final, Doey Loves Duckies says, speaking of small end narcissism, coercive control relies a lot on shame.

Shame is at the heart of narcissism. And unfortunately, as I have said on Mormon stories, shame sometimes is at the heart of the LDS Church business model when it comes to how repentance and sin and porn and masturbation and sexual sin and modesty and repentance in the, atonement all, and worthiness interviews, all interoperative. And distortion.

But really, that's what she said at the Eternal Core Conference. She said, I thought of, I needed a better word for a shame. What was it going to be? Distortion. I'm like, oh, yeah. Oh, goodness. Let's see. So the big question, and I want y'all to ask any questions or make any insights before we end.

But obviously, I started with the question, who do we shoot? You know what I mean? Who's to blame? Do we all agree that Jody's the main villain, according to Sherry, that without Jody, maybe Ruby would have been an overbearing, semi-abusive mom, but it takes Jody to lead it where kids are almost dying? Or is that giving too much credit to Jody? I think you can just give them different titles.

I would say Jody is the ringleader. But again, she gave permission to Ruby who felt already a certain way about her children and about human beings in general. And she dehumanized her children and helped to punish them as we see in her journal. So I feel uncomfortable putting all the blame on one person, but I do feel safe calling Jody a ringleader and cult leader of sorts. And a safest. Yeah, and a state, yeah.

And but that doesn't remove any. Ruby, Ruby. I'm calling Jody a sadist. Jody. Jody. But do we agree that Ruby also? Yeah, I agree the Ruby is also. I don't want to put all of the blame on one person.

I don't feel comfortable doing that. But I, in fact, I don't even think putting blame on one person takes away any blame from another. I do feel comfortable calling Jody the ringleader, the cult leader, a sadist, and where she deserves to be. but Ruby also dehumanize her children and participated in their abuse according to her journals and did those things to her children and allowed it to happen and is also where she needs to be. So I'm comfortable maybe giving them different titles but not placing blame on one more than the other. Yeah, I was just wondering, would there be people incarcerated in federal prison without Jody? Maybe I was asking that, but your point's perfect.

Well, this is the same question gets asked in my family's cases. That's exactly where I was going. It's so hard to not draw that comparison between Lori and Chad. Who's to blame, Lori and Chad? Well, because so many people said, you know, when the case first broke and first came out, everybody was describing Lori as the perfect mom as the cheerleader, as, you know, somebody who is appearing in society as, you know, what everybody thought was such a wonderful, sweet, kind person until she met Chad and then snap.

everything changed. And I think a lot of people were saying the same things about Ruby that she was this great mom. She was a vlogger. She was doing well. And then Jody came and bam, abuse. I think in both cases, there is documented verifiable evidence. This book proves it that both Lori and Ruby were doing incredible harm prior to meeting their dyad, prior to becoming a diet. Becoming a dyad. Exactly. That's what I meant. So yeah, what I have to say is we've got documented proof in this book that Ruby was doing incredible emotional harm and some physical harm to her children before she ever met Jody. And she had that unempathetic take where she didn't care about how it was affecting her children. She just wanted what she wanted. Same thing with Lori.

She just wanted what she wanted. And she was going to do whatever she could to get it. And so do they get to federal crimes? do they get to actual, you know, killing children? Do they get to the type of abuse where her kids were almost dead without that dyad? I think in both cases, Chad gave Lori permission for her beliefs to grow and to turn toxic, even more toxic than they were. Jody gave Ruby permission for her parenting style to be seen as correct, as healthy.

And so it just, I think it escalated everything. but I don't think that it necessarily means we wouldn't have gotten here without that dyad. I agree. I think you nailed it. And if you got my personal opinion since I'm here and I've got the mic, I'll say it. I think that when it comes to who the ringleaders are in both cases, because I really do see these as very copycat crimes. It's actually frightening to me, the parallels. Chad and Lori versus Rudy and Ruby, Jodi and Ruby, Chad, and Lori.

I think that if you want to know who I think the ringleaders are in both. I think that it's Jody and I think that it's Chad Debo. But I think all four of them are where they need to be. And I think that the diabolical things that they did together wouldn't have happened had they not met. So it took all, it took them both. That's well said. What was the, what was the quote really quickly? Ruby and Jody weren't just similar.

They were symbiotic. I thought that was interesting. That's in chapter 17. Meaning they helped, they reinforced each other, helped each other out, made each other more strong and effective. Yep. Yep. Yeah. Affirmed each other's toxicity.

Yep. Yeah. So I was going to ask as far as, so, sorry, I'm just fumbling on my thoughts here a little bit, but I guess Kevin, I liked your point, Lauren, that everyone's got their own blame and someone's increase or decrease in share of the blame doesn't impact someone else's increase or decrease. They're sharing the blame. Does Kevin come out as more or less blameless in, you know, now that you've read Sherry's book? For me, I kind of had heard his interview already into and understanding Jody's, sort of M.O. and her program, for me, the book didn't change my opinion. I think that Kevin is

guilty in that he looked the other way and put his head into sand. And it's disappointing that he couldn't see straight when, you know, Ruby and Jody were across the hall, sharing a room together. But it's disappointing. I don't necessarily know. have ever felt that he knew that this abuse was going on. I think if he's guilty of anything, it's putting his head into sand and it's disappointing and I'm disappointed and not doing more. But I also see that I do believe that he was taken by a cult. So along those lines, as Sherry is describing all in detail,

all the cult-like characteristics of Jody and connections, or even of her mom, right? For those of us who have studied high-demand religions, and for those of us who view Mormonism as a high-demand religion, I'm curious to know if y'all were having the same experience I was, because as she's describing Jody as almost like a cult-like leader, describing Jody's techniques, describing the coercion, describing the manipulation,

the shame, the punishment. In my mind, I'm thinking, Sherry, can't you see that in the church? Can't you see that in Joseph Smith? Like, at the very beginning, Sherry's talking about remembering back to Navu. And she talks about the, was it the widow? Her ancestor. Her ancestor.

Burned down. Right? Like, she's got Mormon history on the brain. She's seeing a cult. leader in action, and then she's seeing priested leaders fail her all around her. She's questioning inspiration. And in my mind, I'm thinking, where are you going to draw the parallels to either Joseph Smith and how we formed the church, or when are you going to find or express the parallels

between Jody and Connections and the modern church? And I know that we all may not agree here on the panel. we may not all see the church in the same light. But were any of you hoping to see Sherry draw some of those connections? I think I was personally curious about what her current views are, which she touched on some, you know, and she seems to still be a believer at this time. So I was certainly curious from what she shared.

For me, yeah, yeah, and this is just Lauren, and then you guys can share your thoughts. I think that to Sherry, the LDS Church is her heritage. You know, again, bringing up her ancestors and things she learned from them. I think it's her community. I think it's her village. It's her schooling, right, where she went to school. It's, and I'm talking high school and BYU because she went to a private school.

I think that the church is sort of. of everything that's comforting in her world, and it is her world. And so I think I understand where it's not the parallels might stop. The connections wasn't always a part of her life. Connections is something that was added to her life. And her family, her community, her village, her schooling, her heritage is LDS. So it's, I think, I guess, to summarize all that, it's a lot more complex. Yeah, speaking as someone who exited several abusive and coercive situations before ever taking a look at the church, the church was the last thing to leave for me. I was, you know, my family system, my marriage, my career, there were so many things that I deconstructed.

And I think the reason it took me so long to get to the church was because during those horrible times, in my life. It was my lifeline. It was a constant. It was something that I knew. And even though I didn't feel fully acceptable in Mormonism, I felt like a second and a third class citizen a lot of the time. My belief in God and Jesus Christ, and I think what carried me through that was the idea that I learned in Mormonism that God knows my name, he knows my circumstances, and that all of this suffering is going to be for my good at some point. And so I didn't want to look at my Mormon faith. I didn't want to look into, I purposely did not look into polygamy as a problem or racism as a problem because I didn't want to know the truth at that point. I wanted to be in the safe place where I had my faith, I had this

belief, it was working for the rest of my family, and I just had to be silent for a while. And I think I think it's the reason why so many Mormons say my shelf broke. It's not that I put something on my shelf and then I took it off later and examined it. I waited until there was so much stuff on the shelf that it literally came crashing to the ground. And that's the only thing that made me take a look at it. And it was no different for me. I think that what you've both stated is beautiful and poignant. And my thoughts are this girl.

is so brave. I think we need to remember she's still 21. She's been through a lot. She's 21 years old. And she wrote this amazing book and bravely told her story. I'm going to take the wins. A big win for me reading this book as an observer, not knowing her personally, is that it seems like she has learned to take back some of her own power. And she even references where she's learning to not trust men. Oh, did you find it? Yeah, it's just right here. I was trying to find it.

No, go ahead and read it. Okay. Yeah, Margie. Marked it. Thank you, Margie. Thank you, Margie. Okay. And so this is after she's, okay, so she's talking about Derek.

He said, this is the afterward. This is the afterward. Oh, yeah. This was profound. Thank you. This is so good. He said Derek was being brought before a formal disciplinary council, his calling stripped away, a small victory, but not enough.

Derek had never lost his temple recommend like I had, and the experience had taught me a vital lesson that just because a church leader says something doesn't mean they're right, doesn't mean it's necessarily coming from God. With everything I'd gone through, I'd realize that what a human being says holds less value to me than my personal conversations with God. Those now are my North Star. So I feel like that's a huge personal, personal, revelation for her to have that. That sounds like the wheels are turning. I mean, they could be. It's not that I would, you know, wish that on her. She's recently announced that she got engaged. And I just, I just wish her the best in whatever the journey, you know, leads her. And if that is her staying in the church and finding a way, you know, I honor that.

Yeah. I just think she's been through so much. And if that, you know, we'll say. Yeah. Yeah. I completely agree. Well said. I honor her.

She has taken back her voice. She is, she is, I honor her journey wherever it goes and I don't even want to speculate or think that maybe she's, we want something. Like she is taking back her power. I agree with that. That was well said. And wherever that leads her, I just honor and respect her. Absolutely. Absolutely.

We got a comment that I do want to read. I read the quote from Marta Herbert where she basically alleged, um, abuse in the Griffith family. And she responded and said, I'm a Griffiths. Ruby is my niece. So, you know. What does she say? Well, remember originally she said earlier.

She said earlier. Okay, okay. The Griffiths are an abusive family. And I'm like, well, that's her. I don't know what she knows. That's her opinion. And then she says, I'm aggriffus. This is one mental note I had earlier that I wanted to circle back to was I do think people

that have followed eight passengers and not just the Ruby and Khabi Frankie family, but the other, I can't remember all their names because there's Bonnie and then there's Julie and Ellie and then there's Ellie and then Bo the brother and I believe the grandparents, the Griffith's grandparents also have a YouTube presence of like a couple hundred thousand followers. Like this is a family thing that they've done. And it sounds like those that have followed these families for several years, I think we're hoping for more Griffith's content or scoop or, you know, updates in the book. And I didn't find that there was a ton of that. There was a mention of Ruby trying to recruit her siblings into the whole connections thing. And they were turned off by that. And then in

very cult fashion, she blocks them or separates herself from them. But so for those that, I guess that's a bit of a spoiler, if you're hoping for more Griffiths things, I know that some of her, some of Ruby's, we mentioned earlier, I believe, that a few of her siblings, I think, have released, at least Bonnie today, released a video talking about her reaction to Sherry's book, and it was, that part of her video was very supportive of Sherry and Kevin and the Frankie Kids. Yes, and, sorry. Go ahead. I just want to say in watching that video this morning that, yes, she was very supportive of

Sherry in the book, but she gives a lot of pushback. on Sherry for talking about generational trauma in the Griffith's family. Oh, interesting. And Bonnie says there is no generational trauma. I just think Ruby was built different. And I will just say, I will just say from experience when you're still in the family system, it's really hard to see how dysfunctional it is. And it sounds to me like Bonnie is still in the system. Yeah. I, yeah, you're right. The book, Sherry speaks warmly of her aunts in book and her answer spoken of warmly in the book. I'll give my personal opinion. I have been disappointed that they haven't spoken out more and condemned this behavior more on their channels.

And I've been disappointed by that myself and have felt frustrated watching how they have handled this and not stood up more for the victims. I agree. So. What did you think of Sherry's criticism of 2020 as someone who's a journalist. I thought it was kind of, I don't know. I guess I don't want to call it harsh because she had the experience not mean. Well, you know, I thought it was interesting, okay, so being a true crime channel, a journalist and a true crime channel, I found it interesting first off that Sherry discusses how she watched a lot of true crime at this time. And I have to say, when I was going through one of the hardest times in my life, I just turned on Keith Morrison every night. Like, that's all I did. And now, of course, I have a true crime

channel. But there is something too that I think when we're going through trauma, by the way, that like we're looking for answers or we're just needing to understand something. And as we always say, in Hindu crime, a better understanding of crime is a better understanding of ourselves. So I think that's, that's interesting. So I also want to put that into perspective. She did not like the 2020. I want to go back and watch it now. I recall liking it. But of course, it's not my family that it's about. And I think that's going to give you such a different perspective is a lot of these things are just kind of cut and dry. They're getting rid of the emotion and they don't really, they're not living that true part of crime. And so I imagine that it would be very, very difficult to watch any crime

program, cover your family. You know, that would be so difficult. And I guess one of us understands what that's like here. I was about to say none of us can understand that. I'm like, ah, actually. And that's why I have such a great appreciation for you and for Dr. John, because of all of the people that I've talked to about this case and all of the other things that I've seen that were reported about my family, you and Dr. John are so kind and respectful of the families. And you are interested not in the shock value, the cessationalism, the clickbait. You're interested in understanding the stories. And I think that is the most important perspective because it's so easy to take a horrific grisly

crime and just exploit it, you know? I've never felt like you and Dr. John have done that, not with my family or not with any of the other cases I've watched you cover. Thank you. That means a lot. Thank you. But yeah, I think that, you know, maybe one ability we have is we have the opportunity, like Mormon stories, to interview people to really listen and see what they're thinking. And of course, 2020 is a program where they've got to get to the meet and tell the story beginning to the end. But I am curious to go, watch it again. I actually am intrigued by her saying that and

she's basically mad that they were recording her and her family's reaction to the revealing of the photographs of the abuse of the children. Was that it? Was that what she said? She had been purposely avoiding seeing photos of the children and then all of a

sudden they were they set up a filming of showing kind of those grizzly photos to the family. That would, okay. wow, yeah, that would be, that would be difficult. And so I understand.

I understand. And it's, I can't imagine, you know, what it was like. But I hope, again, I always admire victims that do come forward with their own voices and their own stories because, again, programs are covering this and they're going to continue covering this. And to say, there are several documentaries. Yeah, several, several. You've been contacted several times.

I think we're both in one. Yeah, we've all been contacted several times. And for the victims, we'll be able to say, this is my story, this is my book, is always a very good thing that I know, you know, we all support. Yeah. Let me just read. I promise they'd read all the super chats. So thank you for Danny Chow for the support. Not Born Again, Baumwright says, by the book, people.

We totally agree. By the book. Thanks, Rhonda Gaines for the support. Danny Claw says, I found Mormon stories podcast from the Jesse Hildebrand interview. Been following closely since. You helped me deconstruct from evangelicalism, and I appreciate all you do. Shout out to all our never-Morman viewers and listeners out there. We love that you tune in to Mormon Stories podcast.

J.C. writes, L.O. John D. ATC. equals activism towards the church. Oh, that's a reference to Ahmed Corbett in his talk. ATC. I get it. I get the joke. Can't believe it never Mo has to clarify insider speak. That's awesome. I love it. Thank you, J.C. I want to buy you dinner. Anyway, he says, keep up for the great work. I love that. It's my favorite, one of my favorite quotes of the day. McSpunky says, hey to two of my favorite ladies, Lauren and Megan. What's up, Mixedunky? I love to see you in the house. Mix funky. I keep trying to get McSpunky to come on my channel to do an interview and he's he's this close so everyone encourage him and then i think this is the last super chat we have de hende oh seven says i think the church is just as much to blame because they're so caught up in the urgent second coming of christ christ that they send people into these psychopathic delusions over good and evil and i do think that

that doctrine that latter-day saint part of the church of jesus christ's the latter-day saint probably has some damage that it's caused. An unhealthy focus on tumultuous end times. Yeah. Those latter days. And that's not just Mormonism. That's evangelical Christianity. But yeah, but latter day saints.

It's in the name, yeah. The last thing I'll just say is I loved, and I know, Megan, you feel passionately about this. I loved Sherry's treatment of the topic of narcissism, and I had actually blocked out a few paragraphs. to read. Maybe we're, you got that maybe?

I have them too. Yeah, that was the main thing that I was like, okay, this is important. Is there anything you want to read

or share about that? Because it is crucial. And I know that's a topic that's near and dirty heart. Yeah. Yeah, I will. I don't know if anybody else has,

I don't want to take anybody else's thunder on that. Go ahead. We're all going to have closing thoughts. So this can be yours. Okay. Cool. Yeah. Great.

So, yeah, at the very, at the very end of the book, Sherry says, always trying to solve the Ruby puzzle. searching for that magic key that would have made her happy and kind. The truth is there probably isn't a magic key.

Narcissism isn't a choice. It's a deep-rooted defense mechanism. And I'm going to push back a little bit because it is a defense mechanism that people develop as a response to trying to avoid shame and trying to avoid difficult feelings. I think we all have a choice to either deal with the difficult feelings or develop. up a defense mechanism. So it's probably a complicate, it's more complicated than black and white, obviously. But she says, and when it can be treated, it requires extensive and dedicated effort on the part of the narcissist themselves, which is rare because most narcissists don't have

the ability to be self-reflective or introspective. So most of them don't ever go to therapy, because they don't think if there's anything wrong with what they're doing. So where does that leave us? how do we deal with the rubies of the world? How do we balance empathy for the wounded person behind the narcissistic mask while protecting ourselves and others from the damage they can cause? I don't have all the answers, but I do know that awareness is a start. Understanding that narcissism is a complex disorder, not just a label for selfish people, is crucial. And recognizing fawning as a trauma response, not just people pleasing, is equally important. has a whole chapter on fawning and the understanding of that, I think, is really important.

And while all that is happening, protecting the children, regulating or outright banning family vlogging for the questionable exploitative practice that it is would be a great start. For me, understanding the patterns has been both heartbreaking and liberating. Seeing the pattern means you can break it. It's not easy. And some days, it feels like I'm fighting against my own instincts. That urge to fawn to sacrifice my well-being on the altar of others' comfort still lurks in the shadows of my psyche. But every time I speak up instead of staying silent, every time I honor my own needs, instead of burying them.

Sorry, guys, this is me too. Every time I allow someone else to sit with their discomfort instead of rushing, to smooth things over. I'm severing another link in that chain of generational trauma, that toxic relay race, passing the baton of pain from one generation to the next. It must end here. It's not just about healing myself anymore. It's about creating a new legacy, a new pattern for the generations that come after me and my family.

Thank you. I didn't realize how impactful this book was going to be. So it's not the first time that I have seen myself and someone else's story, but it was powerful. And that's why I think this book is going to make such a difference for so many people. Thank you, Megan. Yeah. And thank you, Sherry. Thank you, Sherry.

Who has to follow that? That was beautiful. Megan, that was beautiful. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Well, Lauren and Mindy, do you want to give you all the chance to give any final thoughts you had unless you don't want to? And that's your choice.

Did you all have any final other than like, thank you, Sherry? I feel like that's probably the best place to end. I feel content now. I feel content. And I'm interested now in... where this is going to go next. You know, I'm interested in watching their documentary. I'm interested in watching Sherry's journey,

although she's saying, peace out, I'm going to do this on my own. She wants her privacy now. But, yeah, I think it's going to, I agree with, we can help a lot of people. Buy the book. Support Sherry. Show it. Bye the book. Support Sherry.

I didn't realize until just the beginning chapter of the book that she was born in March of 2003, and that's the same month that my third child was born. And so throughout the book, I just, like, kind of pictured my child going through the same steps. And I think I took a motherly approach to that, perhaps because of that. But just so proud of you, Sherry, if you see this, you wrote a beautiful book. You've been through a lot. And I just wish the best for Sherry and for her family. moving forward. Sherry does at the end share empathy for her mother. She talks about how she's

dealing with the prison system, how it's been difficult for her mother, how she's also heard that maybe her mother is working on a degree, which Sherry hopes is true because she pictures her mother, she wants her mother to be able to get out and find a career and be happy in maybe a little house somewhere and conclude her life outside the prison system. I thought that was an interesting bit too, maybe something we didn't know about how Ruby is now doing. We often don't hear about after the sentencing. And so I thought that was an interesting part of the book, too.

She wishes her well. Although it doesn't seem like she's going to play much a part of her mother's life now. She wishes her mother well. Someone's asking where to buy the book. You can definitely buy it on Amazon. I bought the audio version and listened to it. and bought a hard copy version too. So definitely Amazon.

Any local bookstore, I'm sure is going to have it. Sherry reads the audio and does an excellent job. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, I was going to make fun of the fact that this episode is half of the time of the full audio book. Like, we're, we covered half of the book, ladies and gent. I think that just shows that we talk a lot. Yeah.

We have a lot of opinions. There's so much more good stuff in this book. That's because the book is so good. No, I know the book is so good. The book is so good. Yeah. I bought both the Kindle and the audio because I was reading it and then I wanted to listen to it while I, so I bought both.

So, yeah, they're all excellent. It's, yeah. Yeah. Well, beautiful. Well, I'll just say, you know, Super Slooth, Mindy, thank you so much for coming on. You're welcome. It's been a pleasure to be here. I hope.

I love having you on, Mindy, your dear friend. and I welcome you back anytime. Thank you, John. And Megan, from Midlife Revolution and Third Verse YouTube channel. Thank you so much for coming on Mormon Stories. I love being here with you guys. And also, I'm just going to put a plug in for Mormon stories. The LDS discussion series was instrumental in my faith deconstruction.

And I think it's one of the main reasons why I was able to deconstruct so quickly and in such a healthy way. So I became a monthly donor to Mormon stories based just on that series because I think it is well worth the price of tuition for a college course. It was that in depth and amazing. And you were digging the Matt Harris Second Class 8 series. Yes, I haven't finished it yet, mainly because things like this keep popping up. But I love that series as well. and I hope anybody who really cares about racism and the church digs into it. And even if you don't care that much about that topic, there's so much insight and wisdom.

And Matt Harris's book is just incredible. Well, thank you for that. But please subscribe to Megan's YouTube channel. Give her a follow, support her. She's growing her channel and she's doing great work. So Midlife Revolution? Yes, that's the podcast at 3rd underscore verse is the channel. But you can also, most people find it just by looking up Megan Connor.

Okay. That's Megan M-E-G-A-N, right? Yep. All right. And then last but not least, hidden true crime, Lauren Johnson-Mathias with Dr. John. Thank you so much for coming. Absolutely. Thanks for suggesting this and doing this.

People love our collabs. Yeah. Getting the band back together. Can we do it again? Can this not be the last one? I think that's the question. Are we a one hit wonder? Or do we have this?

This is our second hit, Warren. No, right, we're the Beatles. We're like breaking all the records. And the episodes are longer than an album. So we can't seem to create a short episode, friends. I don't want it. I don't want a time to go by fast with you guys. Anyway, please subscribe also to Hidden True Crime Podcast.

Let's make it a million subscriber YouTube channel. How do they? support you. Lauren? You know, supporting us subscribing is huge on our YouTube as well as our podcast. Our YouTube is Hidden True Crime. Our podcast is Hidden True Crime. But also we do have a Patreon, patreon.com slash into crime. And we actually do behind the scenes exclusive bonuses, bonus episodes on our Patreon every week. So weekly episodes, you don't hear anywhere else but Patreon. And it's a wonderful way to support us. And we do give back to those that support us with those behind the scene episodes. So But that would be great, yeah.

All right. We'll support hidden to crime. Thanks for coming, Lauren. Thank you. All right. Well, that's, are you all exhausted? Are you exhausted, Lauren? Let's eat.

You ready for another four hours? I'm ready for a meal. Okay. Megan, you exhausted? I'm not exhausted. It's energizing being with you guys. It is. That's how I feel.

I love it. All right, four more. Let's go. What do you want to talk about? Grab another book. I went off the shelf. Let's go. Mindy, are you exhausted?

I feel good. Yeah. I mean, it's a, it's a, it's a, lot. It's a heavy topic and it's a long time to chat and to think about it. But yeah, it's such a pleasure to be here with all of you. And it feels what is our running time? It feels like the time went fast. It's four and a half four hours and 41 minutes. Whoa. Nice. Yes. Wow. Time flies. Time to eat. Honey. I need to snickers. Let's go. Okay. Well, thanks for joining us today. Thanks again to Julia and Brooklyn and Maven and Herardo and everyone who helps behind the scenes.

Stay tuned for more good stuff in the weeks, months, and years ahead. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other. Thank you, Sherry Frankie. Thank you, Sherry. For writing an amazing, amazing book and your co-author as well. We gave her a shout out at the beginning. Caroline Writer.

Thank you, Mindy. But thank you, Sherry, Frankie. And go buy this book, The House of My Mother, a daughter's quest for freedom. We wish you all the best, Sherry, no matter where you're journey. and he takes you and be good to each other, be kind of each other, we'll see you all again soon.

I sold my car in Carvana last night. Well, that's cool. No, you don't understand. It went perfectly. Real offer, down to the penny. They're picking it up tomorrow. Nothing went wrong.

So, what's the problem? That is the problem. Nothing in my life goes to smoothie. I'm waiting for the catch. Maybe there's no catch. That's exactly what a catch would want me to think. Wow, you need to relax. I need a knock on wood.

Do we have wood? What is this table wood? I think it's lamin it. Okay, yeah. good, that's close enough. Car selling without a catch. So your car today on Carvana. Pick up these may apply.