Hidden True Crime - Pastor Turned Sex Offender Tortures Grandmother with a Nail Gun | The HORRIFYING Case of Jeffrey Zizz

Episode Date: May 14, 2025

In April of 2025, Marcia Norman was reported as missing. What would come next is something no one expected... Join Lauren as she breaks the story down in preparation for Criminal Psychologist Dr. John Matthias, to give his analysis on the next episode. About Hidden True Crime: What started as a simple conversation at their dinner table became a captivating podcast. Join the dynamic duo of Dr. John Matthias, a criminal psychologist, and Lauren Matthias, an investigative journalist, as they delve into the psychological facets of unthinkable crimes every week. Their unique perspectives and in-depth analysis offer a fresh take on true crime storytelling. Thank you for your support through sponsorships, subscribing, listening, and becoming a Patreon member at Patreon.com/HiddenTrueCrime Sponsors: Cornbread Hemp: Go to cornbreadhemp.com/Hidden and enter the code HIDDEN at checkout for 30% off Audio Credits: KOMO News King 5 News Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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where we delve into the hidden motives of current cases, unimaginable crimes. In today's case, it is a lot. And we are going to cover or uncover everything we need to know. So as we get older, tasks that used to seem so simple begin requiring more effort, especially for our elderly population, who eventually have no choice but to rely on others for help doing all sorts of things they used to be able to do on their own. And as a society, when we have the cable guy over to fix the TV or when we hire a plumber or handyman to help, there is a level of trust that we give these strangers we hire. These strangers who must enter our homes, our most personal and most vulnerable spaces.

Unfortunately, the case that we are going to discuss today involves someone violating that trust in the most horrific way possible. The handyman that 82-year-old Marcia Norman hired seemed to be the pinnacle of trustworthy. I mean, he was not only former military and a married family man, but he was also a church pastor. On paper, his resume seemed like someone an 82-year-old female could safely ask for help. However, looking to this guy's past led me down one of the most disturbing rabbit holes you can only imagine. Marcia unknowingly and innocently invited a monster into her home, masked as someone just willing to help an older woman who had no choice but to trust others to help her with her daily tasks. Trust me when I tell you that as we peel back each layer of this case,

the more sad, depraved, and infuriating it becomes. And I just need to warn you before we go any further. This case has graphic, very graphic, and potentially triggering details that involve children and the elderly. So please keep this in mind before we delve into this heartbreaking true crime story that hidden true crime is following and one that we will continue to follow. As a wife, mother and grandmother, Marcia Norman was known as her family's center and the one who held everyone together. Born on October 25th, 1942, Marcia grew up alongside her five brothers in South Chicago. She and her first husband John Brooks had two children, John Jr. and Heather, before the couple ultimately divorced in the late 70s. But in 1980, Marcia began working for Metro Transit Agency

in King County, Washington, where she met a man named Richard Norman. Richard quickly became the love of Marcia's life. They got married in 1987, blending their families, with Richard's two sons, Dave and Dan. After Marsha retired from Metro in 2007, they moved to a beautiful home on the bank of McIntosh Lake in Tenino, Washington. Now, Tenino is located in Thurston County, and you can just tell that this lake

would be a beautiful place to retire. However, being retired didn't mean that the couple was going to slow down by any means, and Marcia and Richard spent the next several years traveling all over the world. They visited China, Cuba, the Caribbean, New Zealand, Australia, Europe, and loved to go sailing in the San Juan Islands. They also enjoyed traveling the United States and visiting their children all over the country

and a dozen grandchildren. When at home, they developed many close friendships with the local bridge club and Marcia was a talented seamstress and quilter as well. Unfortunately, about a year ago in 2024, Richard's health took a turn, and he ended up actually having to stay in an assisted living facility for more full-time help that Marcia could simply not do on her own. And while this was undoubtedly hard on her, Marcia was determined to keep busy and active as usual. And even though Richard could no longer attend, she did still go to Bridge Club every week and regularly went to get pedicures with her neighbor. Marcia was actively planning a cross-country road trip for the summer of 2025

and was even shopping for a new car to take on that summer excursion. As you can see, Marcia was full of life and she was thriving. However, like I've said before, as we get older, things do become more difficult and our bodies just simply don't always work as well as they once did. And Marcia had been having some hip troubles and was even preparing for a hip replacement surgery later in 2025 so that she could continue being active. She was determined to remain active. And there are not many photos of Marcia and Richard's home, but you can see here that it's pretty secluded and reported to be worth around $900,000. That large of a house and yard would be absolutely difficult for anyone to take care of on their own, let alone someone in the

their 80s. Even before Richard went to assisted living, he and Marcia hired a local handyman from time to time for help with various things. His name was Jeffrey Ziz. And for about two years, Jeffrey earned a lot of trust with the Normans and continued to help Marcia now that Richard was away. They even allowed Jeffrey to utilize a shop garage on their property for him to house his tools and his handyman supplies. This just shows how generous they were and how they had developed. this friendship and trust with Jeffrey, so much so that they wanted to help him by giving him space to work and store his belongings. I mentioned that Marcia had her weekly bridge club meetings and always had plans with neighbors and friends. Well, on Friday, April 4th, 2025, just a little

over a month ago, on the day of this recording, one of her neighbors became a little concerned when she hadn't heard from Marcia or seen her as usual. She wasn't answering her phone either, very strange for Marcia. So the neighbor decided to call Marcia's son, John Jr., to see if any of the family had talked to her in the last couple of days. None of Marcia's family members had heard from her since Tuesday, April 1st. So John decided to drive over to check on his mom. And when he arrived at the house, he and the neighbor noticed Marcia's cars in the driveway, multiple cars. No car was missing. And inside, there did not appear to be any disturbance. but it seemed as though she may have left in a hurry. There were dishes in the scene and other

household tasks just simply left and finished, which was not like Marcia at all, as she kept a very tidy house. However, what they found next was even more concerning than the slight mess. Most of us have seen those pillholders where you can organize all of your AM and PM medications for the week. Well, Marcia had one of those pill holders and it became very clear that she had not taken any of her daily medications since Tuesday, since when anyone last heard from her. Her wallet was also still in the house, but her phone was gone. They thought she might have had a medical emergency and been taken away in an ambulance. That makes sense. What happened? So what did they do? They called all the local hospitals. And after calling all of the local hospitals, they realized

that wasn't the case. She wasn't there in any of the hospitals. So after asking everyone and looking everywhere they possibly could think of, John, who happens to be a retired police chief, he just knew something was wrong, very wrong. They finally decided to call the police to report Marcia as missing. And even though Marcia's phone was gone, while waiting for police to arrive, her family was able to sign into her iCloud using her Apple ID. Marcia always had her phone on her and they thought that maybe they could track her location that way. However, all they found were some text messages between her and, well, her handyman, Jeffrey Zizz, from Tuesday, April 1st.

It appeared as though Marcia and Jeffrey had plans to have dinner together that night at Marcia's house. Now, some people might find this a little strange, but personally, I don't at all. Many of us have or know a grandma like this or an older neighbor who invites people, in for a drink or to have a meal. Ramas always seem to want to feed people, to take care of people. And now that Marcia was eating alone most nights, she probably enjoyed the company. And it was a way she could give back to this man who was helping her around the house. A Thurston County lieutenant also later clarified by saying, quote, he's not the average handyman to this family. He's a good family friend. So it doesn't necessarily seem like having dinner together would be uncommon, end quote.

It's not exactly clear when or how the Normans first met Jeffrey, but I think it's safe to assume they only knew what he was willing to tell them about his past and who he really was. I just have a feeling, you know, that gut feeling you get that if they really knew the kind of person he really was, or just a slight knowledge of the type of person he really was, just a small bit of the person he really was, they would not have had him in their home. and you will understand why very shortly. Seeing Marcia's text made her son John even more nervous because of something that his mother had told him

that it once happened with Jeffrey. When the Thurston County police arrived, John recounted the incident. According to John, his mother Marcia told him that a few months ago, she was startled awake in the middle of the night only to find Jeffrey standing at the foot of her bed. She told Jeffrey that being there,

At that time of night was inappropriate to say the least and asked him to leave immediately. And that's what Jeffrey did. Marcia told John that she confronted Jeffrey about it later on and told him not to cross the boundaries of their professional relationship ever again. She made it very clear. And she must have felt that Jeffrey really understood and was apologetic because she and John decided not to report the incident to the police when it happened. It only felt important now.

this moment to John, because based on his mom's iCloud information, well, Jeffrey was potentially the last one to have even seen Marcia. Given the suspicious circumstances, a missing person's alert was issued by Thurston County Sheriff's Office, and detectives took over the investigation almost immediately. There were several people working on all angles of the case simultaneously, which led to quick development in the investigation. On the technology side of things, detectives were able to get an emergency ping on Marsha's phone. The last known location was within a four-mile radius of her house on April 2nd at 136 a.m. This meant that it had been at least two days since Marcia had used her phone, which made this situation even more urgent. During the same time,

other detectives were sent to go find and speak to Jeffrey, the handyman, while the sheriff's apartment began a more thorough search of Lake McIntosh surrounding Marcia's home. A dive team was sent out along with a robot and sonar equipment while drones scoured the area overhead. The house itself lacked any evidence or indication of what could have happened to Marcia besides a slight tire mark leading out of the driveway. Other than that, it was as if Marcia had vanished into thin air. Before detectives arrived at Jeffrey's house to speak to him, I think that we can, can assume that these same detectives probably searched Jeffrey's name in their database to see if he had a criminal history. And that is when they would have discovered that Jeffries'

is wasn't just some clean-cut pastor and super helpful handyman for the elderly. In reality, he was a professional wolf in sheep's clothing with a knack of praying on the vulnerable, the very vulnerable. So before we get into what happened once investigators arrived and what Jeffrey said in his interview with detectives. Let's first look into his background so we have a better understanding of who we are dealing with. Have you been looking for a natural way to relieve aches and discomfort? The CBD gums from cornbread hemp are formulated to work with your body, not against it. I struggle with migraines and have been using CBD as a way to help naturally treat them on days they are really bad. Cornbread hemp's organic CBD gommies are made to help you feel better,

whether it's stressed discomfort or just needing some relaxation. Not only that, but all products are third-party lab tested and USDA organic to ensure safety and purity so you can take them with peace of mind. Right now, Hidden Shogram listeners can save 30% on their first order. Just head to cornbread hemp.com slash hidden and use code hidden at checkout for that 30% off. That's cornbread hemp, C-O-R-N-B-R-E-A-D, H-E-M-P dot com slash hidden and use code hidden. Jeffrey Kianz was born on August 26, 1977 in Renton, Washington, and is the oldest of four siblings. At age five, the family relocated to Prescott, Arizona, and I was not able to find Jeffrey's father's name. But by all accounts, what I did discover was that he was a very physically abusive man.

There are reports that he used belts and his fists to abuse the children, as well as Jeffrey's mother joy. abused both Jeffrey and his mother. In 1986, his father was arrested and prosecuted for sexually abusing Jeffrey's younger sister, who at the time would have been around six years old. Jeffrey has stated that he only saw his father three more times after his incarceration, and it is clear that none of Jeffrey's siblings or his mother joy have a relationship with him. This undoubtedly had a negative effect on Jeffrey growing up. Even though he was in the gifted program at school, he began running away from home and was even placed in a juvenile detention center at one point. After this, he ended up moving in with an aunt and uncle, which did seem to help him do a little bit

better and improve his behavior. Well, after high school, Jeffrey joined the army where he worked as a field grade officer and eventually received the rank of major. After marrying his wife Christy in 2003, Jeffrey decided to take a break from the army to further his education and attended Florida's Maranatha Christian College. After receiving his undergrad, he went on to earn a master's degree in political science from Kansas State University. Jeffrey and Christi had their first child, a daughter in 2005. They eventually welcomed two more girls and two boys completing their family of seven in 2016. After college, Jeffrey went back to the army and did a two-year deployment in Afghanistan. He was last stationed at JBLM, which is a joint military

installation in Washington State before retiring from the Army in 2019. From there, he went on to work for a church called Calvary Chapel North Thurston in Lacey, Washington. There, he served as a pastor and helped with tech support. Now, I wanted to learn a little bit more about this church, because as we have seen in so many other cases that we have covered, a person's religious beliefs often and have an effect on the choices that they make throughout their life. And certain religious beliefs can also get twisted or taken to the extreme and used as a motive behind some really horrible criminal behavior. And so I thought it was important to see if that could have played a role here.

And from what I've gathered, Jeffrey's Church is an offshoot of the Calvary Chapel movement. They describe themselves more as a fellowship of churches rather than a denomination. They fall within evangelical Christianity. The movement says that they are the middle ground between fundamentalism and Pentecostalism in modern Protestant theology. The doctrine they share on their website seems like typical non-denominational Christian beliefs, and they use a verse-by-verse approach to teaching the Bible. On the Calvary Chapel North Thurston's website, it says, quote, our mission is to glorify God by helping people discover and experience full life in Jesus, end quote. So really, nothing.

nothing too alarming that sticks out on the religious front for now. However, as we will soon find out, even though Jeffrey was clearly a trusted and respected pastor at church behind closed doors, he was capable of what most churches would label as evil. And I don't say that lightly. And so what was happening behind closed doors? Trigger warning once again, well, before Marsha ever went missing, nearly four years ago on October 20, 12th, 2021, a detective with the Lacey Police Department was contacted by an attorney named Blake Harris, who he said that he was representing Jeffrey's. And according to Harris, Jeffrey, his client, disclosed that he wished to turn himself in for numerous sexual assaults that he

committed against his three daughters beginning in 2019. He tried to assault his oldest daughter just one week before the disclosure, and this incident prompted him to want to confess. The next day on October 13, 2021, the detective called Jeffrey's wife Christy to hear from her and to make sure the children were safe. Christy stated that she and the children left home to go stay in Arizona, and she was trying to work out where Jeffrey was going to live before they returned. It is not clear when she first found out about the assaults because, according to Christy, the elders at their church already knew. And Jeffrey was removed as pastor. She also said that she didn't believe Jeffrey had, quote, actual intercourse, end quote, with the girls or had ever assaulted the boys.

After their conversation, Christy told the detective she would drive the children back to Washington on October 19th so that they could undergo official forensic interviews. And on October 20th, the family arrived for their interviews. The oldest, daughter was 16 at the time and is referred to as AD in court documents. During the interview, AD spoke about three different timeframes where inappropriate incidents occurred. She said the first incident happened when she was 14 years old and Jeffrey tried to spy on her in the bathroom. While taking a shower, she heard the bathroom door rattling and then saw his phone on the floor. She said she thought it was one of her brothers playing with the phone. But later that night,

Jeffrey confessed to trying to put it under the door to record her, his own daughter. She said that since he confessed, she forgave him. However, after that first incident, Jeffrey's behavior escalated to touching AD while she was in bed at night. She said it started as backrubs, but then he moved to touching her private areas. During the interview, she pointed to her breasts and groin area. We're referring to her private area. She went on to say that he would put his hands under her pajamas but wasn't sure if he touched under her underwear. AD explained that the most recent incident occurred approximately two weeks before the interview.

She said that Jeffrey came into her room and was shining a flashlight around her bed. And when she asked what he was doing, he said, quote, Well, it's 12 a.m. and I'm drunk. Tonight is the night I take you by will or by force. End quote. Ad said she tried to coax him back to his bed because he was drunk, but he would not go. He got on top of her and Adi said that he was making cringing and moaning sounds. When asked to describe what cringing meant, she said it was like heavy breathing and slowly crumpling into a ball. Adi said she tried to scream, but then her father put his hand over her mouth.

he had a piece of duct tape ready to use. It had gotten too crumpled up in his hand and would not stick on her face. Adi said that Jeffrey asked her if she knew what consequences would be, what the consequences would be. And she started praying out loud. He told her to keep praying and then said, I want you to take my penis with your right hand. End quote. When she did not do this,

He put one of his hands over her mouth again, but she wasn't sure where his other hand was. And while hovering on top of her, 80 said that Jeffrey kept cringing and saying, quote, Jesus, Jesus. At one point, he almost fell off the bed and had to put his arm out to catch himself. She was finally able to push him off and run out of the room. He tried to grab her wrist, but she was able to get away and ran down the hall screaming, to her mom's room. Jeffrey followed her and they talked to her mom about what happened. A.D. said Jeffrey was really upset and was saying that was the stupidest thing he had ever done. And after

their conversation, he left the house to go stay the night somewhere else. It is not clear why Christy did not immediately call the police, why she didn't call 911 right there. But AD stated that she never said anything before because she didn't want to split up their family. That same day, Jeffrey's second oldest daughter who was around 13 or 14 at the time also gave an interview as well. She is referred to as A.V. in the court documents, A.V. explains that she was 11 years old the first time Jeffrey touched her inappropriately. They were in the guest room and he told her that he wanted to know if her body was old enough to feel things. A.V. said he touched her in places under her clothes and asked her if it felt nice or if it just felt weird. and after the first incident, Jeffrey continued to touch her private areas at night when she was in her bedroom.

A.V. also said that he put his finger inside of her. She explained that every time he did that, she would tell him to stop and he would. However, he continued to touch her like this once a week for approximately two and a half years. A.B. also said that she and Jeffrey would talk about him touching her, and he said he knew it was wrong and was trying to stop. A couple months, before the interview, Jeffrey told her that he had also been touching her while she was asleep. He told her that he was sorry but didn't think he was doing any harm to her because she was sleeping. He told her that if she caught him in her room again, he would pay her $100. Well, the next day on October 21st, 2021, Jeffrey and his attorney arrived at Lacey Police Department.

Jeffrey agreed to give a simple statement and said that there was, quote, criminal sexual misconduct in his home involving his daughters, end quote. He declined to provide any details, but said he believes his daughters would be truthful in their statements. Jeffrey was charged with incest in the first degree, rape of a child in the first degree, two counts of child molestation in the second degree, rape of a child in the second degree, rape of a child in the second degree, rape of a child. of the third degree, two counts of child molestation in the third degree, and attempted rape in the second degree. However, the state agreed to amend the charges to two counts of child molestation and one count of communication with a minor for immoral purposes in exchange for Jeffrey pleading guilty. Jeffrey also had to undergo a psychological evaluation and sexual history polygraph test. These provided his version of events, as well as they

slew of other disturbing, very disturbing information. Jeffrey told the polygraph examiner that at age 11, he actually sexually assaulted his one-year-old sister. At age 14, he sexually assaulted another sister who would have been 10 years old. He also admitted to having sexual contact with a horse at the dog. During adulthood, Jeffrey stated that he visited strip clubs and he had sex with a woman he met there while she was passed out from intoxication, meaning he raped her. He also said that he gets aroused by others being physically abused or humiliated and admitted to using his daughter's underwear for masturbation purposes. When talking about the sexual assault of his daughters, Jeffrey told the psychologist, quote, this did not just occur spontaneously. I think I thought

if my daughters thought it was okay, then it was okay. I recognized I had a sexual attraction to my daughters. There was shame. We would be snuggling and it would progress. They would ask me to stop and I would. There's a part of me that wants to be close to my daughters and it overflowed into a sexual relationship. Jeffrey was also asked to describe what took place with his daughters in detail. And he said, quote, usually when the girls would get ready for bed, I would go into their rooms and touch them, which pushed the boundaries. With AD, I did put a phone under the bottom of the bathroom door frame and tried to take photos of her in February 2019. The inappropriate touching of her lasted a couple of years, but it was mostly over her clothes. I only touched her approximately five times under her

clothes and there was some penetration. If she told me to stop, I would. In the late hours of October 3rd, 2021, or the early morning hours of October 4th, 2021, I was intoxicated and I went into their room. I told AD that I wanted her to touch me. I brought duct tape with me in case she screamed. I got on top of her and she screamed and I tried to cover her mouth with my hand. I ended up falling off the bed and she ran and told my wife, her mother, what happened. With A.V., I touched her vaginal area, breasts and buttocks under her clothes over a dozen times. There was penetration with my finger. With L, there was a handful of times that I would touch her both over and under her clothes,

but there was no penetration. End quote. Straight from Jeffrey's mouth. That was hard to read. And again, quoting directly from Jeffrey Ziz, the man responsible confessing to abusing multiple young victims multiple times over years. Jeffrey was originally sentenced to more than eight years in prison, but this is where things get even more upsetting. You just heard what he confessed to and what his victim shared. Well, due to Washington State's special sex offender sentencing alternative,

Jeffrey spent less than one year behind bars. Somehow, after all of this, he was deemed to be a, quote, low-risk offender, end quote. This infuriates me to hear that, low-risk offender after reading what I just read to you. That was not a feel-good read. It was very upsetting to read. And now we learned that he has been deemed a low-risk offender and spent less than a year behind bars. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet,

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theft insurance, all backed by 24-7 U.S.-based fraud support. Other companies might sell just credit monitoring or just a VPN. ORA gives you all of it, together, at the same price competitors charge for just one service. Start your free trial today atora.com slash remove. Protect yourself now at ora.com slash remove. Both the state and defense asked for the alternative with the court document stating, quote, this recommendation is due in large part to Mr. Ziz taking responsibility for his actions and the victim wanting him to be in the SSOSA program. The Department of Corrections is also making this recommendation due to his candidness and no prior

criminal history. Mr. Ziz did not make excuses. do victim blaming, minimize, or play a victim role when discussing his offenses. And by the way, sign out, he did victim blame. I just read that. There was victim blaming. He had two goals for when he is released from incarceration, begin therapy with psychosexual treatment and substance abuse disorder programs and work to support his family.

He knows the best pathway forward is for him to continue treatment. He has already finished an evaluation with a doctor, and she stated that he had, has a below average risk to reoffend, and he is amenable to treatment, end quote. I find this strange that it says Jeffrey didn't minimize his actions. It's another thing that I find strange. When he used words like just and only repeatedly, like, quote, I only touched her five times and it was just mostly just touching, end quote, as if one time is even acceptable. Also, it's important to note that the daughter referred to as L.

is much younger than the others, and he touched her as well. It's just extremely disturbing how he said that if his daughters were, quote, okay with it, he didn't see a problem. Later in the document, it says, quote, Mr. Ziz hopes that his daughters can find healing. He understands his daughters will never be the same after his devastating actions. They may heal, but these actions will still leave scars. He knows that they will go through periods of anger and sadness because of his actions yet he hopes they can find some solace as this case is finally ending he is deeply sorry for the trauma he has caused going forward mr ziz has his wife and adult family and friends who will positively support him they will help him to succeed at treatment and employment lastly mr ziz wants

to become a better person and never do this again he knows he needs treatment and will take the necessary steps to change himself, end quote. I don't know about you, but the fact that the document says that the victims wanted him to have the sentencing alternative does not sit right with me. Christy, his wife, explained to the detective that she was a stay-at-home mom and homeschooled the children. Since Jeffrey was arrested, they had been surviving off of his military pension, which is one reason she gave for not divorcing him. Yes, still married to Jeffries is. And with five children, money was admittedly probably pretty tight and that likely waved heavily on the older girls as well, the victims. They may have felt some sort of responsibility for their dad being in prison and unable to earn more money for the family.

I just don't think victims, especially child victims and children of the perpetrator should be put in any situation where they need to help decide something like this. I also find it concerning that in the documents, Christy said she did not know how much contact she and the boys would continue having with Jeffrey. I can understand staying married to the guy for his pension, especially if there's some financial abuse. But having any sort of relationship with a person who could hurt your children repeatedly for years

is just an absolute no. Also, in the conclusion of his risk and needs assessment, it says, quote, Jeffrey appears to be above average intelligence, but lacks insight into his sexual offending behavior as evidenced by his statement, quote, I don't understand how all of this happened, end quote. He seems to possess a recognized pattern of sexual offending by committing similar offenses over a period of years.

It can be hoped that through treatment, Jeffrey will gain increased empathy and insight into the feelings of others and that he may be guided toward an awareness of appropriate psychosexual boundaries and impulsivity management. End quote. The fact that he doesn't understand how this happened is concerning because that also seems like an important thing to figure out in order to not reoffend. Granted, that statement was made before he had any treatment, but it just seems like he did not fully grasp the magnitude of his actions, to say the least.

Saying he wants to become a better person and never do this again just sounds like someone who was caught stealing a candy bar from the store, not sexually assaulting their children for years and years. And let's remember that the attempt to use duct tape on his daughter, duct tape on his daughter covering her screams, this is a violent sexual crime against a child, violent. And I don't understand how anyone that has a violent sexual crime could be low risk. Regardless, after being accepted for the special sex offender sentencing alternative, there were several terms he had to follow, including registering as a sex offender. He also had to engage in therapy, refrain from using drugs or alcohol, have no contact with the victims,

stay in Thurston County, and find and maintain housing and employment. Failure to comply with any of the stipulations would result in Jeffrey serving the rest of his sentence in prison. By 2025, he had maintained housing by renting a room from a homeowner named James Carter in Thurston County. Now, I'm not sure why Handyman was an acceptable form of employment, because usually there needs to be a superior to report back to a parole officer. Having a job that requires potentially going into people's homes also does not seem like a safe option for a registered sex offender. Not only that, but as of 2025, Jeffrey Zizz, doesn't. doesn't appear anywhere on Washington's sex offender registry. At best, it doesn't seem like he was even being closely monitored,

and at worst, he may not have even been following through with his SSOSA requirements at all. So those are all of the things the detectives would have learned before questioning Jeffrey about Marcia Norman. Before investigators arrived at Jeffrey's residence, a Thurston County deputy drove by his house and noticed a red 2020, Ford F-350 truck parked on the curb outside. The license plate was registered to Jeffries's.

So the deputy decided to do some research into the vehicle while detectives came over to question Jeffrey. When they arrived, they told Jeffrey that they had questions regarding Marcia Norman's disappearance, and he invited them inside. He told them that he had heard about her going missing when one of her family members called him earlier that day. He explained that he met Marsha through his job as a handyman,

They had become friends, and she even let him use a portion of her detached shop to work on projects and store equipment. Jeffrey said that on Tuesday, April 1st, he had made plans to have dinner with Marcia. When he arrived at her house, he went to the shop to work on some things first. And then around 5.30 p.m., she texted him to come down to the house for dinner. They had street tacos and Marcia drank some wine. He said he left her house around 8.30 p.m. and then arrived home at around 9 p.m. that night. And from there, he said he went to bed and did not leave again until the next morning for work. After this first interview, the detectives went to confer with the officer who did research into Jeffrey's truck. Well, that's when they caught Jeffrey in his first lies. Around Thurston

County, you see, there are something called flock cameras around town, which are equipped with automated license plate readers, and they take a photo of each vehicle and license plates. as it passes by. Well, these types of cameras are used all over the county, and they can catch drivers running red lights, speeding through school zones, and they can be used by law enforcement when trying to locate a specific vehicle. A flock camera in Thurston County captured Jeffrey's license plate at two separate times, which contradicted his original story to detectives. The first time was at 304 a.m. in the early morning hours of April 2nd, and the second time was at 7.03 a.m. at the same location, each time going southbound in the intersection of Lily Road

and Martin Way east in Olympia. Olympia is also in Thurston County and about 15 miles away from Marcia's house. The photo of the vehicle depicted a large round garbage can with a black garbage backliner in the truck bed. Since Jeffrey told detectives he had arrived home around 9 p.m. and went straight to bed. What was he doing out at 3 a.m.? am. They decided to go back to Jeffrey's house to question him some more, while other officers worked on obtaining a search warrant for his residence and truck. Well, when they arrived back, Jeffrey invited detectives back in, and they immediately began questioning him about the discrepancies with the flock camera. They asked if anyone else ever used his truck, and he said,

no, absolutely not. But what did he do? He admitted to lying during his first interview. He said, well, actually, he did go back to Marsh's house twice that night after they had dinner. At about midnight, he claimed that he needed to go collect some tools from the shop that he forgot and he needed for a job the next day. And after getting the tools, he said he came back home and slept for a short period of time before waking up and realizing that he actually needed his trailer for the job as a while. He said that he went back to Marcia's at around 3 a.m. to get his trailer that was parked outside her shop. He came back home and said that the next morning, he started his day by taking his trailer to a storage unit where he kept more of his tools.

And after that, he went to a home improvement store and work equipment rental shop to get more things for his job in Olympia that day. When asked about the job, he said that he used a rental excavator to tear down an old shed and load the debris into a dump trailer. He then began building a new shed in the very same spot. Jeffrey gave detectives permission to look through his phone, which is when they found more potentially calculated behavior. They checked his Google location history and saw that on Tuesday, April 1st, Jeffrey left his house at about 3.32 p.m. and arrived at Marsh's house at about 4 p.m. Well, this coincided with his story about working on some things in the shop before they had dinner. His phone showed that he left her house at about 8.32,

and returned home at 9.07 p.m. There was no more location activity until Wednesday, April 2nd, when it showed Jeffrey leaving home at 6.10 a.m. to go to his storage unit. He then went to the home improvement store and an equipment store to rent an excavator for his job. When asked about this, Jeffrey said that he must have forgotten his phone at home when he went back to Marsh's house, those two times to get things. The detectives also, saw a text message from the storage facility company on April 2nd that read, quote, as a reminder, our property is accessible from 6 a.m. to 9 p.m. every day. You may not be on property outside those hours. Thank you, end quote. When asked about this text message,

Jeffrey said that a few days prior, he left his storage unit at around 901 p.m. and they were reminding him not to be there after closing time. However, since he didn't bring his phone with him to marshes, it's likely that he went to a storage unit in those early morning hours, possibly to retrieve whatever was in the bed of his truck or store something until morning. Magically forgetting his phone on two separate trips also makes it seem like he did that on purpose so that his phone could not be tracked. During this time, some Thurston County deputies decided to contact Jeffrey's roommate James Carter. James has ringed doorbell cameras on the front door and in the driveway of the house, and he provided the recent footage to police.

The cameras showed Jeffrey arriving home at 9.08 p.m. on April 1st, but didn't show any activity again until 5.46 a.m. on April 2nd when he appeared to be leaving for the morning. This didn't really make a lot of sense, considering he was seen on the flock camera, and he admitted to leaving the house. Jeffrey said that it may be because their Wi-Fi went down during those times, so the ring did not capture him leaving. With Jeffrey's story clearly not adding up, the detectives asked if he would come to the sheriff's office for more questioning.

And when they arrived, they asked him about the incident a few months ago when Marcia woke up to find Jeffrey at the foot of her bed. Jeffrey did admit that this happened and stated that he went into Marcia's room because he wanted to speak to her. He rubbed her shoulder to wake her up, and then Marcia told him to leave right then.

When asked, Jeffrey also admitted that he did have romantic thoughts about Marcia. He then agreed to submit to a polygraph, but reportedly failed it. Like big time failed the polygraph. And after that, Jeffrey proclaimed that he had nothing to do with Marcia's disappearance, but no longer wanted to speak without an attorney. Officers worked on securing their warrants, and later that night, Jeffrey's red truck was seized and detectives conducted a search of his residence. In his bedroom, they noticed that the window screen frame was bent as if it had recently been removed.

If he left out of his window in the middle of the night, this may explain why he was not captured leaving on the ring camera. He also parked his truck on the street so he would not have been able to be seen on the camera in the driveway either. Now, this is where things get creepy. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers, spammers, even stalkers. It's why you get endless robocalls and why ads seem to follow you everywhere.

That's where ORA comes in. ORA actively removes your data from broker's sites and keeps it off. They also instantly alert you if your information shows up in a breach or on the dark web. But ORA goes beyond data protection. With one app, you get a VPN, antivirus, password manager, spam call protection, dark web monitoring, and even up to $5 million in identity theft insurance, all backed by 24-7 U.S.-based fraud support. Other companies might sell just credit monitoring, or just a VPN. ORA gives you all of it, together, at the same price competitors charge for just one service.

Start your free trial today atora.com slash remove. Protect yourself now atora.com slash remove. In Jeffrey's room, police also located a five-page-type letter that appeared to be a meticulously planned-out burglary and sexual assault of an elderly woman. In the letter, the woman was identified only as, quote, my customer. Now, it's not clear who this letter was for, but considering Marsha was technically his elderly customer and she was now missing, this made detectives extremely worried. However, they still did not have enough evidence to arrest Jeffrey so they continued searching for answers. Two days later, on the morning of April 7th, detectives received an email from Jeffrey's roommate James. He wrote that Jeffrey had asked to borrow his truck the previous day, but never returned home.

James stated that he wanted to report his truck as stolen because he was afraid that Jeffrey may try to hurt himself. So now it appears as though Jeffrey was attempting to flee, and they reported James' truck as stolen so that other jurisdictions could be on the lookout for the truck. Later that same day, troopers with the Idaho State Police informed the detectives that they located James Carter's missing truck in a very rural area

between Kuski, Idaho, and Missoula, Montana. The truck had front-end damage and appeared to have struck an elk and became disabled, that Jeffrey was no longer with the vehicle. Since it was now blatantly obvious that Jeffrey was attempting to flee from Washington and had just fled the scene of an accident,

a warrant was issued for Jeffrey's arrest. However, this still wasn't in connection with Marsha's disappearance, but rather it was because leaving Thurston County was a violation of his release conditions. Detectives figured that if they could not arrest him and hold him for any disappearance of Marcia, they could arrest and hold him for this violation. They'd have more time to figure out what happened to Marsha. And later that night, Montana police canvassed the area to figure out where Jeffrey may have walked to from the accident after he laughed. They went from hotel to hotel in Missoula until they

finally found him. He was promptly arrested and was brought back to Washington after an extradition hearing. On April 8th, Ziz appeared in a Montana courtroom, but not for this missing person's case. Detective say he fled to Missoula, a violation of a previous sentence for a child molestation case. If you take a look at that warrant is requesting that you be held on no bond. Now that Jeffrey was officially in custody. Detectives began looking more into the job he mentioned doing on April 2nd. He said that he rented an excavator for the job, so they went to the rental shop to acquire documentation for this rental. Well, surveillance video from the shop confirmed that Jeffrey did indeed rent an excavator and a trailer that morning. All of the company's rental

equipment have a GPS tracking device installed as a form of theft protection, including the items Jeffrey used. The rental company provided the GPS data, and it appeared that Jeffrey went directly to the job site in Olympia, Washington. The equipment didn't travel anywhere else before it was returned to the store in the afternoon. With this information, detectives identified the person who owned the land of the job site. They contacted her, and she said that she had met Jeffrey through, get this, her friend, Marsha Norman. Marcia had recommended Jeffrey when they discussed her needing a new shed. She said that Jeffrey began working on the project on Wednesday, April 2nd, and was working out there alone with an excavator. He worked alone again on Thursday, but on Friday and Saturday,

he had helped from another worker. The next day on April 8th, an official search was done on Jeffrey's Red Ford F-350 and Cadaver dogs conducted a sniff of the vehicle. Well, both of the dogs alerted to the odor of human decomposition in the tailgate of the truck. The dogs were taken to Marsh's property and alerted the smell of decomposition around her to the home. They were then taken to the Olympia job site where Jeffrey built the new shed, but they couldn't get a clear yes or no for the presence of a body. Police responded back to the property with ground penetrating radar equipment and located an anomaly in the earth under the shed. They had the dog sniffed this particular area again, and all three alerted to the smell of human decomposition. The next day on April 9th,

the Thurston County Sheriff's Office raised the new shed using power equipment. Detectives began digging, and about 18 inches under the dirt, they located human remains partially covered in concrete. On April 10th, an autopsy was conducted, and the medical examiner confirmed that the remains belonged to Marsha Norman. It was also discovered that long black Velcro straps were wrapped around her wrists and ankles, and the Evidence on her body showed that she had been bound prior to death. Her cause of death was determined to be blunt force trauma as well as penetrating injuries to her head. In a press conference, the medical examiner went into more detail and stated that Marcia had significant blunt force

injuries to her extremities and torso. He said that the injuries were the result of being assaulted by another person and that she was alive when they were inflicted. A reporter asked for the medical examiner to provide clarity on the penetrating injuries to her head, and he stated that they were inflicted by a pneumatic nailer, also commonly referred to as a nail gun. He said that her injuries were compounded and reoccurred over the course of several hours, and her death would not have been quick. I take no pleasure in delivering the following message because it's going to sting. The immediate cause of death from Marsha is combined blunt force and penetrating sharp force injuries of the head. Other significant conditions

contributing to Ms. Norman's death were multiple blunt force injuries to her torso and extremities. The autopsy examination revealed the injuries were the result of being assaulted by another person and that the injuries were inflicted while Ms. Norman was alive. There's sharp force injuries and there's blunt force trauma. For the blunt force trauma, there is no pattern to say what device was used. So it could be a piece of lumber machinery as far as the sharp force injuries. pneumatic nailer. And I will, I'm going to back up a little bit.

Her onset from injury to death was not instant. It was ours. So these injuries compounded and reoccurred while she was still alive. Do we know where that happened? No. No. I don't, I'm not aware of true of a location yet. And just to be clear, do we think she was deceased when she was placed in that shallow grave?

Yes. So just for the time, Mr. Warnock, so the nail gun, that was used hours before she died, what you believe? It was used in the progression of the assault. So it wasn't an instantaneous death. In his opinion, the evidence is consistent with Marcia being beaten with an unknown object, tortured and executed with the nail gun. He also had this to say in regards to this case. In our line of work, we see and witness many things.

And this investigation is one you cannot unsee. I have been with the coroner's office for nearly 25 years with 19 years as the coroner. And this is the worst case I've witnessed. Another journalist asked about the letter that Jeffrey wrote and the lead officer stated that Marsh's death was consistent with what was written in that letter that was found in Jeffrey's house. However, so far, there is no evidence of a sexual assault, but results for that are still pending. Following her autopsy, Jeffries is was charged with first-degree kidnapping, two accounts of first-degree premeditated murder while armed with a deadly weapon, and unlawful

disposal of human remains. When I was researching this case, I realized that the timeline of the events was a little confusing, and I made this visual for us to go through so we can quickly recap on how the whole investigation unfolded. So on Tuesday, April 1st, Jeffrey and Marcia had dinner at around 5.30 p.m. Jeffrey arrived back home around 9 p.m., which was confirmed by his ring doorbell camera. On Wednesday, April 2nd, Jeffrey claimed that he went back to Marcia's the first time around midnight. He said he went back to her house. the second time around 3 a.m. but was seen on the flock camera in Olympia at this time. At 6 a.m. he left his house and went to a storage unit before renting the excavator.

He was captured on the Olympia flock camera again at 7 a.m., likely making his way to the job site to begin work on the shed. On Friday, April 4th, Marsha was first reported missing and the investigation began. On Saturday, April 5th, Jeffrey was interviewed and failed his polygraph test. His truck was seized and the letter was found in his room. On Sunday, April 6th, Jeffrey borrowed his roommate James's truck. And on Monday, April 7th, James reported the truck as stolen and it was later found broken down between Idaho and Montana after striking an elk. Later that night, Jeff was arrested for violating his release conditions by leaving Thurston County. On Tuesday, April 8th, cadaver dogs hit on Jeffrey's truck,

Marsha's house, and the Olympia shed for human decomposition. On Wednesday, April 9th, Marsha's body was found and Jeffrey was extradited back to Washington. On Thursday, April 10th, an autopsy was performed, and Jeffrey was charged with the murder of Marcia Norman. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the Internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers, spammers, even stalkers.

It's why you get endless robocalls and why ads seem to follow you everywhere. That's where ORA comes in. ORA actively removes your data from broker sites and keeps it off. They also instantly alert you if your information shows up in a breach or on the dark web. But ORA goes beyond data protection. With one app, you get a VPN, antivirus, password manager, spam call protection, dark web monitoring, and even up to $5 million in identity theft insurance, all backed by 24-7 U.S.-based fraud support. Other companies might sell just credit monitoring, or just a VPN.

ORA gives you all of it, together, at the same price competitors charge for just one service. Start your free trial today atora.com slash remove. Protect yourself now atora.com slash remove. On Monday, April 21st, Jeffrey appeared in court virtually for a bail hearing. the prosecuting attorney named Rosemary Fitzgerald told Judge Sue Wilton, quote, the allegations before the court are shocking, both in their nature and that the alleged victim was an 82-year-old woman, a member of this community who the defendant over a two-year period befriended and knew lived alone. The allegations here are among the most serious and very troubling

in terms of the prepared plan and the execution, end quote. One of Marcia's granddaughters issued a statement as well and said, quote, Marcia was so much more than just an 82-year-old to 90 woman. She was a very real person who was both deeply loved by her family and community. We believe the accused presents a very real danger and threat to the same community. He's already demonstrated that he is a flight risk and we ask that you reflect on the gruesome nature of this case and refuse bail at this time, end quote. Marcia was a woman who was vibrant, full of life and full of plans for the future. And she impacted more people than we even knew.

The family requested the Thurston County judge holds Ziz without bail. And that's exactly what has happened. When he was arrested last week, he was in Montana. Ziz was not supposed to leave the state of Washington because he currently is on probation for past child molestation charges. Judge Wilson ultimately agreed. And Jeffrey is now being held without bail. On Tuesday, April 22nd, Jeffrey entered a plea of not guilty for all of the charges.

He is scheduled for another hearing at the end of May, and his trial is expected to begin June 30th, 2025. I truly can't even imagine the pain that Marcia Norman's family is going through, now knowing what took place in their beloved mother and grandmother's last hours. Some of the toughest cases to cover involve children or young adults whose lives, bright futures, potential are ended before they even had a chance to begin. However, there is something just as difficult and horrendous in this case. After living a long and meaningful life, full of love and warmth, to be taken out in such a disturbing, fortress way is beyond comprehension. Marcia made it all the way

to 82 and still had so much life left to live and love to give her growing, expanding family. She deserves safety and dignity in her own home and to live out those precious trilight years in peace. In the press conference, the lead officer stated that he wasn't sure if Marcia and her family knew about Jeffrey's past. Regardless, even if they did know something, at the end of the day, Marcia trusted him. He positioned himself in her life to be a person she could trust and depend on. That is clearly an M.O. of his to victimize people in vulnerable positions. As a child, there is no one we should be able to trust more than our parents, and he already demonstrated that he, had no problem exploding that dynamic. He admitted to having romantic thoughts about Marsha and officers

believe that the letter he wrote indicates that he developed an obsession for her. Perhaps he tried to make a move on her at dinner and she told him again not to cross those boundaries. Or maybe he tried to sexually assault her and she resisted, which escalated into the violence that ultimately ensued. There's really no telling what could have possibly made Jeffrey brutalize her in such a horrific way. The fact that he's pleading not guilty is pretty astounding to me too, considering all of the damning evidence. Besides a motive, there are still so many other unanswered questions. During the press conference, officers said that there was no blood or signs of a struggle at Marcia's house. Given the nature of her injuries, that may indicate that the murder took place elsewhere.

Some believe that he may have put her in the old shed and killed her there before tearing it down and building the new one. but we will have to wait until trial to see if there's any evidence of this. We already know so many details about this unfathomable crime just from the initial documents, but I am sure a lot more information will be coming out very soon, and we will continue to share any information that we uncover here. There are undoubtedly many people who have questions for the judge, attorneys, and psychologist who help decide that Jeffrey should be placed in the sentencing alternative program. There are also questions about whether or he,

was being correctly monitored, participating in treatment, and if he actually even registered as a sex offender. For an offender to even qualify for the sentencing alternative, this must be their first offense and prior criminal history is taken into account as well. Also, the offense cannot be first or second degree rape, and their maximum sentence range cannot exceed 11 years. The offender must plead guilty and acknowledge their guilt and be deemed amenable to treatment. As we know, charges were amended to child molestation and communication with a minor for immoral purposes. Never mind again that this was an extremely violent crime against a child, children, but a child, one of them that included duct tape. However, whether or not the charges were amended,

when considering the risk of reoffence, the actual literal offense should be taken into account when deciding if they qualify for a sentencing alternative and not just the charges worked out in the plea deal. The fact that he assaulted his young siblings and raped an unconscious woman in the past should have been taken into account as well. This wasn't just one isolated incident. He is clearly a very dangerous individual and the courts had proof of that prior to his early release. I just do not see how he could have been considered low risk. I do not see it. And when asked how they felt about Jeffrey being let out early,

Thurston County Sheriff Derek Sanders said, quote, the continual release of dangerous individuals into our community is a sore subject for me right now, end quote. So it's safe to say that most people aren't in favor of these types of early release programs. And whether or not sex offenders can be rehabilitated or what type of offenders can be rehabilitated is a topic that I will let Dr. John Matthias discuss in his analysis of this case, my co-hosts, as well as allowing him to deep dive into what possibly drove the horrendous acts of Jeffrey Ziz. Dr. John is a clinical and forensic psychologist who mostly works with offenders and assessing risk. So clearly, we have many questions for him. And our next episode on this case will be with Dr. John. Clearly, Jeffrey Zizz went on to commit another act of the most severe violence after receiving an early release. And one reason was a doctor saying he was low risk to

reoffend. The justice system will have to face that if Jeffrey was still imprisoned. Marsha would still be alive. There is no way around it. If Jeffrey was still in prison, Marcia would still be alive. In a Facebook post, one of Marcia's granddaughters wrote, quote, My Grandma Marcia was a tremendous blessing to our family, and I genuinely don't know what the future looks like without her. She was our glue, our comic relief, and our brightest smile, end quote.

Another family member wrote, quote, It is now public information that the body of my dear, dear friend and family member, Marcia has been found. The circumstances of her demise are beyond our comprehension. Focusing now on remembering the years of joy she brought to our family, her vibrant smile, her humor, from multiple talents, her intense love for our mutual grandchildren. What a blessing she was. Our grief is intense, end quote. Right now, Marcia Norman, she'd be getting ready for her cross-country summer road trip with her son. She had plans to teach several of her grandchildren how to sew. but now she will never get that chance.

The path to trial is always difficult, especially for the victim's family. But I hope they know that we will all be watching and keeping up with this case so that we can see Marcia get the justice she deserves. Thank you for subscribing as hidden true crime will continue to uncover what's hidden. We will not stop.

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Taxes and fees extra. Seeful terms at mintmobile.com. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public regulations. records and the internet, and then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers, spammers, even stalkers. It's why you get endless robocalls and why ads seem to follow you everywhere. That's where ORA comes in.

ORA actively removes your data from broker's sites and keeps it off. They also instantly alert you if your information shows up in a breach or on the dark web. But ORA goes beyond data protection. With one app, you get a VPN, antivirus, password manager, spam call protection, dark web monitoring, and even up to $5 million in identity theft insurance, all backed by 24-7 U.S.-based fraud support. Other companies might sell just credit monitoring, or just a VPN. ORA gives you all of it, together, at the same price competitors charge for just one service. Start your free trial today atora.com slash remove.

Protect yourself now at aura.com slash remove.