Hidden True Crime - Psychologist Analyzes the NEWLY RELEASED Michael "Monkey" Vaughan Confession

Episode Date: January 20, 2025

Lauren and Dr. John dive into the latest video released of Stacey Wondra's confession in the Michael "Monkey" Vaughan Case About Hidden True Crime: Lauren Matthias, a former television reporter, and her husband Dr. John Matthias, a criminal psychologist, started Hidden True Crime in 2020 with their Season, 'Beyond the Veil,' a psychological deep dive into the doomsday murders and prophet. What started as a simple conversation at their dinner table became a captivating podcast. Join the dynamic duo of Dr. John Matthias, a forensic psychologist, and Lauren Matthias, an investigative journalist, as they delve into the psychological facets of unthinkable crimes every week. Their unique perspectives and in-depth analysis offer a fresh take on true crime storytelling. Thank you for your support through sponsorships, subscribing, listening, and becoming a Patreon member at Patreon.com/HiddenTrueCrime Michael Vaughn Full Playlist Lauren's Interview with Stacey Wondra John's Interview with Stacey Wondra Credits: Clutch Them Pearls on Youtube Our Sponsors:* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Acorns: https://acorns.com/HIDDENTRUECRIME* Check out Armoire and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.armoire.style* Check out Effecty and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://www.effecty.com* Check out Happy Mammoth and use my code HIDDENTRUECRIME for a great deal: https://happymammoth.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/hidden-a-true-crime-podcast1836/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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premium materials like European linen, organic cotton, but they cut out the middleman. So everything is priced way lower than you'd expect. Refresh. your every day with luxury you can actually use. Head to quince.com slash hidden true crime for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quince, quince, q-u-in-c-com slash hidden true crime for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com slash hidden true crime. Hey everyone. We are with a very special guest. This is really important. So thank you. everyone for supporting as we come forward with new information as a newly released information an interrogation with Stacey Wondra, a suspect in the disappearance of Michael or Monkey

Vaughn, five-year-old Michael Vaughn. Monkey went missing in July of 2021 and here with us right now is Monkey's mother. He was never given up. After we talked to Brandy, John and I are going to go over this video with law enforcement that was newly released with Stacey Wondra. John and I have actually both interviewed Stacey Wondra ourselves. And we're going to talk about what we've said there and we're going to assess some things. But before that, we want to talk to Brandy. We want to understand everything that's going on right now. But also Brandy, first up, thank you for trusting us.

You said this is the only place you're going to be doing an interview. Is that right? As of right now. as of right now. We have a lot of new listeners, new subscribers, since last you interviewed with us and since Michael's kidnapping. And you're very beautiful. I've been to your home and to your neighborhood and to Fruitland, Idaho. It is like a very child friendly, family friendly small town and he went out looking for friends. But can you help us? And I know this is again and again to relive this. But can you share with us what happened on?

on July 27th, 2021. It was a normal day, summer day. I was getting ready for work. I had to be at work by 12.30 p.m. that day. I had started a new job. My cat. And I had gone to work that morning. Michael and his big brother, a little sister, were here.

Older sister had school functions. They were here throughout the day. I'd gone to work, called around four in the afternoon on my lunch break, check on everybody, see how everybody was doing. They were playing in and out of the house. Monkey was running around. I got to talk to him and tell him, you know, I loved him, and I see him when I got home, tuck him in.

And around 7 o'clock, Tyler called me. He couldn't find Michael. Michael wasn't in the house. Tyler had gone to wake up the baby at the time. She was a little over a year old, about a year and a half old, and ordered dinner for the kids. And when he got done with everything, he didn't see Michael in the living room, he was gradually looking for him and couldn't find him anywhere. He called me in a panic and I was dealing with

a customer at the time and I, you know, found Chalant. I was probably hiding in the bedroom underneath the bed back behind the wall, by the wall. Put my phone in the pocket and finished up with the customer about maybe good five minutes and picked up the phone and I can just hear Tyler screaming for Michael screaming monkey just the panic in his voice hit me just I've never heard him sound like that and I froze and one of my coworkers said said something to me and said he can't find Michael and he said go go and I drove home as fast as I could I was on the phone with Tyler a little bit of the way here. He hung up with me, called 911.

By the time I had gotten into Fruitland and into our neighborhood to come down into our neighborhood, I had seen a police vehicle and another vehicle at the splash pad. And then I got up into the neighborhood and there were people out looking. And Tyler was talking to an officer. and that it just kind of set in from there. I remember driving to one point screaming for Michael, neighbors coming out, and I'm screaming and yelling. I parked the vehicle.

More people will just keep coming and were screaming. And it's all through the night. There were law enforcement community members. There was no sign of him. We searched everything and we couldn't find him. About a year and a half later, there was a break in the case. It was about a year and a half. We interviewed you.

We were following. We were praying with you and hoping with you and doing all we could to report here at Hidden True Crime. And the break in the case was really big. least listed four suspects, Stacey Wondra, Sarah Wondra, Brandon Shirtliff, and Adrian Luce Seen. And they were then started digging for remains. This was very near your house. About four minutes away, they told you to stay away, as I recall. I remember talking to you that day. They said, stay away. We are, we are looking for remains. You weren't ready to say that yet. I remember you telling me that I'm not ready to say.

that. I want to bring him home. He's going to come home. And they searched this house just four minutes from you where the wondrous had been living. And they didn't find monkey, although they did find evidence, I believe. And I don't know if I can share that evidence or if you can. I don't know. But at that moment, it was national news. And I think I want to share this with people. This is really important. At that moment, it was national news. And I think many people thought at that moment that perhaps the case was solved. And news and media went quiet for a bit after that time. Yeah, okay.

But what people don't realize is no. Monkeys never been found. And no one has ever, ever been charged in his disappearance or his kidnapping. In fact, Stacey Wondra, or excuse me, Sarah Wondra, Sarah and Stacey were married. Sarah Wondra, the wife, was charged at that time with failing to report a body. Is that right? But those charges were then dropped. They were then dropped.

Yes. You say that again? Dropped without prejudice. So they can refile those charges at a later date if those. charges, well, when this charges apply, they'll bring those back, I'm assuming. That's what I was under the, that's under the assumption of if it's even necessary for that charge. And that was two years ago. Yeah.

And so then here we are today. Can you help us understand or share what's been going on in the past two years? And I think one reason this is so important, please share this with everyone. Brandy is hoping you do that. Please. We need to bring awareness. Yes. To this case, we need to let people know that this case has not been solved, that monkey is missing, and that no one, no one has been charged with taking your son.

What has been going on in the past couple of years, if we can ask you? Well, as you know, there are four named suspects, the chief of police. did a cross conference in 2022, November of 2022. And those four suspects' names are Stacey Wondra, Sarah Wondra,

Adrian Luceon and Brandon Charlotte. At the time they had said that there had been a credible tip that came from someone inside the home. We were in a of who the tip had come from. Stacey had been incarcerated at the time of the press conference on unrelated charges,

federal contractors of belief at that time. And then when he got out, he wanted to clear his name, say clear his name. He did a lot of interviews. Of course, on YouTube locally, he did. some with local news media as well. I watched him for a very long time lie. After I had heard this confession of this, I couldn't handle listening to that man every which way on all these platforms as I'm trying to bring awareness to Michael's case to these four suspects

because Michael is still missing. And I just couldn't, I couldn't stand to to him lie to everyone anymore. John and I were two of those people that interviewed Stacy, and we did so to try to help to try to understand a little bit more. John's interview, John is a criminal and forensic psychologist, and we actually, for reason, put John's interview behind a paywall because we did want fewer people seeing this. It is on Patreon.

I did mine publicly. Stacey understood that. But I'll tell you, it was a very, very difficult interview for me to do. I had a very hard time. In fact, a lot of people even said to me, Lauren, I usually like your interviews and I didn't like that one.

And I had a really hard time. I'll just say. And I'm very much for you and John and everyone that interviewed Stacey Wanderer. It just showed more and more of the consistencies in his story and the lights that he's continuously told. Now, where do we find the truth in that? Yeah, there is Michael.

We're again going to watch this interrogation with John, you know, after we talked to Brandy. And so for people to understand this interview, had you seen this interrogation or this police interview with Stacey before it was released through four? your doctor? Oh, before it was released through. Right. No, no, no, no, no law enforcement. This, it's, I had not seen any

of this. All I was told was from law enforcement. Um, trust them. Which of course I always do. We do. We do wholeheartedly. And there were solid reasons and evidence why they were, um,

these four people are suspects. So this, this information was a through a FOIA request. It was attached to a different incident. And that was a whole lot. Do you know Brandy, could you fill us in about the, do you know the circumstances under which that information was obtained? Did they, did Stacy volunteer that information?

Or, you know, when he was in, you know, when he was incarcerated for the unrelated charges, do you know, do you know exactly why he was assisting law enforcement with that statement? I do not have a definitive answer on that. I have a few different things that have been told, and I'm not sure the exact order how everything happened, so I'm not going to speculate on that. That will, you know, I mean, that it is all in the probable cause affidavit. it is with a prosecution.

So all of that information when said time will be... Gotcha. So the probable cause obviously has not been released. Correct. Because there's been no arrest. Right. Okay. Yeah, I was just curious that when we look at the statement,

you know, usually it's helpful to have the context or the circumstances under which somebody is making that type of statement. I guess you could call it a confession. of sorts. So from my understanding is my understanding. I could be wrong. This is just my perception of how this occurred. Sarah Wondra had been speaking to Stacey Wondra.

I'm not sure when and on how the context of all of that happened. Stacey, I believe, had said he had information about the location of Michael. Michael's ruined and you know they went and spoke with him and then I believe they were able to get a search warrant served that search warrant Sarah was arrested and I believe that's the next morning is when they started excavating the yard so as far as I know Stacey Wander was the one that contacted for the police department and that's how that I believe I don't know how all of the rest goes and live all of it. Gotcha. So it may have originated with some type of recordings from calls between Stacey and Sarah. I'm sure it came in some sort of investigation process that they've been working on. Gotcha. Okay.

Okay. I would really, really thank you all for continuing to share Michael's story. I'm battling a life-threatening illness right now. Yes. And a very, very resilient and strong person. But I need everyone's help. I made a promise 1,272 days ago. To monkey, to Michael.

I promised him. And no matter what, I would never give up. And I will bring him home. Now, things have added along the way. And Michael, we are going to bring you home. That still stands. That promise still stands. And we will get justice for you.

Now, there are a few family members and few law enforcement officers that I, in case I, in case I am unable to fulfill this promise before my days end. They're going to hold up my word as if it's mine. So please keep my goal in our family and everyone in your prayers. What can all of us do from where we are? Share Michael's story. Share the facts from law enforcement. Keep a story out there.

Please don't forget about them. Please don't forget about him. And don't forget about all of the missing. We need justice. Justice needs to be served. At this point, that's where I'm where I'm at. Let's continue to support law enforcement and our community. And pray that these four suspects or anyone that has any information

possibly knows more. more than what they're actually saying. Please have the heart to come forward, please. Please let me keep that promise before. I can't. Please. Thank you, Brandy. Thank you.

I want to remind everyone again that after the last two years, many stopped following this case, not realizing, not understanding, that no one has been arrested or charged with doing anything to your monkey and nobody knows where a monkey is. So spread this far and wide. And John and I were, again,

we're going to go over this interrogation. We're not going to make you watch it. So we're going to, you know, yeah, we'll let you get back to your family before we do this. But, yeah, we will make sure, let people know. And we're going to help you keep your promise. Thank you.

Welcome. John, is there anything else? Just that I think we're so passionate about this case and helping you keep your promise that we're going to do everything we can to assist in solving it. And we're going to go back over what we know. And we're going to be reaching out to some people to see what we can do. So we want to assist you in keeping that promise and honoring Michael's memory and bringing justice to all involved in this case. So we're with you all the way. Thank you, guys.

Very, very much. I really appreciate it. We'll let you get back to your family. We're going to continue talking about this. We're going to continue trying to understand and helping where we can. Thank you. You've got the hidden true crime, gems, and community behind you. I appreciate you all very, very much.

Hug your loved ones. Take care of each other. Be kind. And I will be in touch. Thank you. Thank you, Brandy. We'll see you. Bye. Bye. Most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions, pulling details about you from public records and the internet,

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slash hidden true crime. Does anyone else find themselves saying, I feel way older than I actually am, or I feel way younger? Did you know there might be some truth behind that feeling? That's where true diagnostic comes in. With their true age test, you can discover your true biological age, plus get insights into health risks for heart disease or Alzheimer's, even your mortality. I just ordered my true diagnostic test, and while nervous, I'm looking forward to what it may tell me about my own health so I can take control of things now. When taking tests pertaining to my health, I want to make sure it's scientifically backed and true diagnostic is. Their true age test is based on peer-reviewed research from scientists working at Harvard, Duke, and Yale. And by tracking your

biological age, you can actually see how the changes you make, whether that's exercise, diet or sleep will affect your health over time. Ready to find out your biological age? Right now, our listeners can get 20% off their entire order at True Diagnostic.com by using code Hidden True Crime at checkout. That's True Diagnostic, T-R-U-D-A-G and O-T-I-C dot com. Just use code hidden true crime to save 20% off. Plus, if you subscribe, you'll get an additional 20% off. Discover your true age today. I'm so grateful. that she was able to join with us. I know that was really hard for her,

and she had to get child care, and she wanted very much to come on. How are you doing, John? Are you okay? Yeah. I mean, it's a very emotional case, I think, for you and I, we've been involved in it from the beginning. And, you know, for me,

we have a young son who was roughly Michael's age at the time he disappeared. And, you know, I have, such a strong emotional response to all kids that go missing, but in particular to young boys and, you know, in the same way that I did with JJ on the daybell case. So JJ, JJ Valo's disappearance was one of the reasons that there are many reasons, but it's one of the reasons we jumped on the daybell case with such a

urgency early on. And I just, you know, I'm so close to our son and I just can't imagine something happening to him or any child for that matter. And so I feel like, you know, we we really, I really, really want to see this case solved and to help Brandy keep her promise would be amazing. So we're going to really dive in as much as we can. again, this is a newly released interrogation video with Stacey Wondra that has come out. Many people have been wondering since police announced his name as a possible suspect. And then after announcing him as a possible suspect and arresting his wife with failure to disclose a missing body, they started digging in their home where they were living, excavating.

They did not find monkey. And then, again, sort of some silence. Things went quiet on this case. We, again, have interviewed Stacey, and I think people were confused then. As Brandy just said, I thought that was profound. She said, I couldn't stomach watching him lie to people. Many have you been wondering. And so this is, would you say, John, this is the police interview that led officers to dig?

Is that right? Well, I was asking Brandy to clarify some of the circumstances surrounding this interview. We're still not clear what led him to this statement. So it's not entirely clear. I do want to make a plea to anyone out there that, like Brandy did, if anyone knows anything about this case. One of the things that's really problematic for, The suspects here is the timeline. So if anyone was in that area or knows someone who was or has any idea of saw something

or heard something related to this crime, please contact us or contact law enforcement. The timeline is problematic because one of the issues that came up in my interview with Stacy Wundra was that he saw a young boy and he's contradicted himself on this. I don't have police interviews so I don't know the exact statements or facts he's provided but

initially he said he saw a five to six year old boy plane in the street not far from where he was and he he claims that he pulled over his car to change the brake fluid on his car at the time. And he claims that he did that roughly the time within an hour, within the time frame we're talking about,

that he pulled over his car roughly during the time that Michael Vaughn would have been abducted. So we can place him in the vicinity of the crime, right? And we can we can we can we can say that he saw a young boy playing in the street not far from where he was changing this break fluid. I mean, but his his recollection, recollection in his statements differ quite a bit depending on the interview. and the interview, you know, the interviewer and the questions asked. But if we could somehow, if somebody knew anything about this or saw something, I think this is one of the things that they're struggling with is really pinning down this timeline. Law enforcement have a pretty good idea of when Michael went missing.

But Stacy is obviously pretty, is very vague. about the break fluid. And I mean, there's a lot of questions about the break fluid, by the way, that I asked. I talked to them about it. But so I think that the timeline is really critical in this case. And I mentioned that because, again, if somebody knows something or has heard something or knows someone, then please let us know. Should we watch this video now then? Yeah.

So let's take a look at this. the statement that he made to law enforcement and let's analyze it a little bit. And I think the big question I want to answer or we want to try to answer is, is this an accurate statement? Is he telling us the truth? Yeah. We're going to start this at 1157. This is,

was released by Clutch Them Pearls. And we have a link for the full video in the description of, of our video or our episode here, that you can go and watch the full video. Hello. Hey, we're trying to make it go through. All right, bye. Okay.

He says that you aren't received video calls right now. Are you on, are you, is the number that just got down the iPhone? No. Oh, I'm here. This is Stacy. You're feeling okay today? I'm tired, Lydia.

Yeah. Go out the back door or? Okay. I can't. Can you turn the camera around so I can show you? There you go. Face to the right, like right where the dirt piles are. Keep going out a little.

It's like right under that mound area. To the little like right to the right of the trees area. To the right of the trees. Yeah. A little bit. Where that? Okay. Where are at now?

Now he's off the dead. off the dirt mound it's like underneath the dirt mound area is about where he's standing yeah a little bit less like closer to the house kind closer to the house yeah and what is he wrapped in um you should be i mean it should be a uh garbage bag okay what colors the garbage bag Well, it would be white or black. We only had two colors right off there. Right there. Okay. Do you have any other suggestions for us, Stacey?

I mean, like I said, that's where he was buried. Okay. That's the last place I had known. Again, I haven't been home for quite a while and a lot of shit. You know what I mean? So going to the other place, I would say, if he's not in that backyard, is go to, to Brandon's house and check in the backyard by the tree area. Okay, well we're gonna finish here first. Okay. Does he need to go right or less?

That general area, that mean that bucket's enough to dig, but you're gonna wanna like start digging underneath the dirt piles. I don't know how far she actually dug, to be honest with you. I mean, maybe four or five feet. Four or five feet? Like I said, you asked for an estimate. I'm giving you what, I mean, it's probably shorter than that. I don't have an exact idea. Okay. When she dug the hole, was she standing in the hole? She's standing outside of it.

Okay. And was she using a regular shovel? I think it was a bull nose or what do you call them pointed ones. Okay. And did the shovel, was she able to stand on the hole? Yes. I don't know. I'd say. like 3p down, 2 p down. It's, I mean, I don't have a, like I said, I don't have an exact, you know,

measurement like to give you. I mean, I didn't pay attention that far. We'll try where you stay. All right, thank you. All right, yep. We'll hear it. We call it back. We'll come back.

Yeah. Can you guys, can you try to advocate and see if you can get a hold of, uh, was one of the LTE or the fucking, the, or not LT because he's hunting, but the sergeant. And see, you know, they're taking me away from the only thing that, one of the only thing that helps me with is being able to talk to my mom. And, you know, I mean, all I want to do is talk to my mom. That's the only thing I really want. I don't, I didn't barely get the chance to talk to my mom.

room like last night because everything was so okay well I'll talk to I'll talk to who I can and see if you're allowed to make calls and we'll go from there I don't like I said man I'm on I'm on the patrol side of it so I don't really know what happens back here too much so but I'll give you my word that I'll go talk to them right now and see so basically all you want to do is talk to your mom I just want to call my mom i have minutes on i have money minutes on her side okay so in calling her i don't have to i mean i don't have to worry about them resetting the phone number for minutes or anything okay i mean it's she has approved that it comes okay well we'll put you back over there and i'll

talk to these guys and see what we can uh what we can do for you okay thank you for helping us out man most people don't realize how much their personal information is being bought and sold every day data brokers are making billions pulling details about you from public records and the internet and then packaging and selling it usually without your consent that's how your information lands in the hands of scammers spammers even stalkers it's why you get endless robocalls and why ads seem to follow you everywhere that's where aura comes in aura actively removes your data from broker sites and keeps it off they also instantly alert you if your information shows a up in a breach or on the dark web. But ORA goes beyond data protection. With one app, you get a VPN, antivirus, password manager, spam call protection, dark web monitoring, and even up to $5 million in identity theft insurance, all backed by 24-7 U.S.-based fraud support. Other companies might sell just credit monitoring, or just a VPN. ORA gives you all of it, together, at the same price competitors charge for just one service. Start your free trial today at aura.com slash remove. Protect yourself now atora.com slash remove.

So. No, that was hard to watch. It's very hard to watch. It's very hard to watch. Especially after interviewing him. Yeah, both of us have interviewed him too. That is hard to watch. And in his interviews with us, he denies have anything to do with this.

Right. He denies ever-knowing or meeting Michael Vaughn. But let's assess this interview, let's look at whether this is true, right? I think that's obviously the most important thing. It is because, again, now he denies this. So this is, but this is 2022, November 22. Okay.

Yeah, is this real? So the argument against this being valid or accurate or true would be that they didn't find Michael's body. And so I guess you could say that one argument might be that he was misleading law enforcement intentionally just to mess with them or just to upset them, right? You could argue that there's something that's oppositional about this guy or antisocial, however we want to describe it. But that this is, you could say, I guess, you could say that this is an example of his, disregard and disrespect for law enforcement and he wants to you know sort of get them reeling and thinking they're going to find a body when in fact he knows there's no body there

you know it could be that he knows where the body is and he knows it's not there and so he's doing the same thing he's trying to upset them or get their hopes up and dash them but so you could argue that that this is someone who's very antisocial and this is an instance of that type of behavior where he's misleading law enforcement just to upset them. I think that the big question for me, the first question I want to ask about any interview of this sort is, is there any type of coercion? So when assessing confessions or these types of statements, the most important question you can ask is law enforcement, put any pressure on him or coercing them into saying

something that he doesn't want to say because there's there's different types of confessions and there are confessions that are called compliant false confessions which are essentially elicited from law enforcement this is the you know this is the classic example of a confession that somebody makes when they're in a room with a really angry law enforcement officer or at least a hard-nosed law enforcement officer or for like 12 hours, right? And they reach a breaking point and they confess and they say, you know, I committed the crime or here's where the body is.

And so those are the most common types of false confessions. They're, again, they're called compliant false confessions. And they're almost always related to police interrogation methods of coercion. And so we don't have that. It's fair to say there's no coercion here. clearly. You know, there's a moment there actually that stands out where the officer gets the detective. So let's clarify to the person on the, the woman on the phone is one of the lead detectives in the case. And she's at the property, obviously trying to uncover the body.

They have equipment out there. He makes a comment about while they've got a lot of equipment. They're trying to find this body. He has agreed to help direct them to the body that they believe is Michael Vaughn. So there's a moment, but there's a moment where he says, the officer says, I don't know, I'm just a patrol officer. I'm not a detective, right? I'm not, I'm not someone who's going to interrogate you. You know, my job is to hand out tickets, right? So, right. So unless there's some coercion going on before this, the offices are pretty laid back.

There's really no evidence of coercion here. So that would lend credence to the fact that this is a. valid confession of sorts, if we call it a confession. I mean, he's not saying he committed the crime, but he's saying he knows where the body is, which obviously means that he is associated with this crime, whether he's a co-conspirator,

or whether he was involved in the murder or the death of Michael, right? It's, for our purposes, it's all the same. Right. That they're all going to be charged with murder if they find Michael's body. So if you rule out coercion and a compliant false confession,

There's another type of confession that's called an internalized false confession. That's also related to police coercion during interviews. We can rule that out, again, because there's no coercion. That happens when police officers are doing a long interview. They put a lot of pressure on a suspect, and they start feeding the suspect lies about what they know or misinformation about what they know. And then the suspect starts believing some of those lies and starts actually using some of those lies in their confession

because they just, they want to be released. They, you know, they reach a breaking point and they start agreeing with the officers just because, usually because they think they're going to go home once they give a statement that the officers want. So Stacey Wonder has been in detention for a while, not on charges related to Monkey,

but he's been in detention, and he's under no particular pressure to confess anything. He seems to be doing this voluntarily. So we can rule that out. Yeah. Which, so if you rule out, the other type of false confession is what's called a voluntary false confession. And that's a confession essentially that somebody will make whose attention seeking

or somebody who wants to assert themselves in a case. Usually you'll see false confessions in well-known cases. So the one that you and I sometimes talk about, is John Bonae Ramsey, there's this detailed confession about exactly how the crime went down and how the murder happened. And it was made by a guy named John Mark Carr, which was clearly false because he wasn't anywhere near the crime scene.

So you can't commit a crime if you're not there. Correct. Usually voluntary false confessions are done. The motivation is attention. or fame, maybe fortune, whatever, that type of thing. So you'd have to ask, be doing this for attention? I think the clear answer to that is no. He doesn't seem to be doing it for that reason.

So that really leaves us with one option, and that's a true confession. Right. And not only that, not only does that leave us with a true confession, but he's giving us details here. You know, the garbage bag example is a perfect example of this, of a type of statement or confession. This is the kind of detail that I would look at or law enforcement would look at or anybody in, you know, in the forensic world would look at. They would see that detail as something that's unique that only he would know.

It's, it's a, it's a, it's minutia. Right? Like he said, what he says is, the detective asks him, you know, how is he buried? And he says, well, he's in a garbage bag. Okay. And by the way, that's a little triggering for me because it reminds me, again, I talked about JJ parallels between J.J. Valo and Michael Vaughn. And we all know that J.J. was found in a garbage bag. And, you know, one of the things about J.J. being found in a garbage bag is just how absolutely.

cold, right? And methodical that is, how there's, there's nothing about that type of burial or disposal of a body that speaks of any empathy or any concern for the boy or the deceased, right? Like, it's, it's just so cold-hearted and so callous. And you see that here. You know, I mean, literally you use a body bag to dispose of trash. You don't use a body bag to, I mean, I'm sorry. garbage bag, use a garbage bag to dispose of fresh. You don't use a garbage bag to dispose of bodies.

So, but he says he's in a garbage bag and then he says she says I don't remember exactly we can play it again, but he says it has to be white or black because we only had two colors.

Exactly. I'm like what? I noticed that. Okay. Like, that's pretty unique. That's pretty that's a pretty minute detail that's very telling that only someone who was involved in that particular murder or kidnapping or, you know, would know or would disclose. And so, and he's not thinking about it. He's just, he's disclosing, right?

He's making that statement. It's one or the other because those are the only two we have. All right. So he's giving really specific details about location. and then he brings up the garbage bags. You know, I mean, that's not something you're just going to make up off the top of your head. The other thing to know about Stacey Wondra is that by his own admission, he has a below average, a fairly significantly below our average IQ.

And usually people like Stacey Wondra with that level of intelligence, they tend to be very literal. So he's not the type of person that's just going to make something up on the fly. He's not going to be someone who's just going to imagine that type of detail in the moment. He's more likely to recite something as is verbatim, literally, the way it happened. So I think that would all lend credence to the fact that this is a valid statement or confession, confession of sorts because the details, the garbage bag in particular, I think, is incredibly revealing and telling.

he talks about Sarah digging the hole he talks about you know I mean the other thing he does inadvertently is he implicates all these other people in this crime yeah he does he says well if he's not there he's over at Brandon's

so okay so Brandon obviously Brandon Brandon's shirtlip seems to know something about this crime because if he's not there then Brandon has him which also by the way tells us why the body isn't there,

that more than likely the body is not there because Brandon or Adrian or one of these other people moved the body when Stacey was incarcerated so he wouldn't know. When they originally buried the body, they probably put it in the spot that Stacey Wendros suggested

or the spot that he directed law enforcement to. And then I would guess that when Stacey was incarcerated, these other co-conspirators were concerned about being caught. And so they, clearly, they dug up the body and moved it somewhere else. And so it's quite possible that Brandon or Adrian behind, and Sarah was, by the way, Sarah was later incarcerated too for other unrelated charges.

And so it's more than likely to me that Adrian or Brandon went back, dug up the body, put it somewhere where they believed would be less likely to. be discovered and we don't and that's what we're trying to figure out we're trying to figure out where where they put this body because clearly they when they didn't find it in that location then they went over and looked at the other spot i would imagine that that stacey said which would be in brandon's yard or near brandon's yard so um and adrian by the way this guy adrian lucian sarah wonder at her statement she implicates him well she implicates stacey She says Stacey killed him, essentially.

And then she says that Adrian, I don't know who did it, but Adrian also did it. So that's how you have four suspects here that are all involved in this particular crime. And Adrian and Brandon both lived. At some point, they lived with Stacey and Sarah on and off prior to this crime. Yes. So in other words, this is a confession. It's accurate from what you can tell. Why would he change it later?

I mean, is it simply just because he hasn't? Well, I think it's obvious why he would change it. He had time to think about it. He doesn't want to spend the rest of his life in prison. He's trying to run away from the crime and the charges. He's being evasive. He knows whatever evidence they have, He knows it's not sufficient to arrest him and charge him with these crimes.

So, yeah, it would make sense that he would. It would make sense that all of them would deny this after the fact because law enforcement isn't doing much. They're not arresting them, which tells them that they don't have the evidence to really, you know, to prosecute at a level that might get them in prison for the rest of their lives. So I think they're probably feeling somewhat smug and they're probably feeling somewhat secure in the fact that it's been years and nothing's been done. And even though they made these statements and confessions

that law enforcement still hasn't acted on what they know, which means that they know that law enforcement has a weak case, so why not deny it? Smug or confident might be an understatement since Stacey Wander decided to do an interview with both you and me. Yeah. After giving this confession

in November of 2022, we had not seen it. Stacey Wondra was willing to go on with you into a private conversation. He knew what you did. Again, you can a link to John's interview with Stacey Wondra is in the description of this video.

My conversation with him also. is on YouTube. It's public. Mine can be public. But I've always, you know, I didn't even know what he had said. But to see this and then think that he was confident enough to come on and talk to us and many other creators too. What's that about? Just the smugness?

I mean, he partially, I think he was trying to get some attention so that he could capitalize on that to maybe financially. You know, he was living in his car when we interviewed him, and he was somewhat desperate. And I think he was, every show he was going on, he was asking people for money. So, and he was asking viewers to contribute to, I don't remember what, did he have a go, I don't remember what he had, but he was looking for, he was looking for, I don't think he had to go fund me because I don't think they'd go fund. I don't think they would allow that. But whatever, I remember there was a financial component that he was. Yeah. He was trying to get some financial benefit from a lot of the interviews he was doing.

And I think that was a big part of it. And so what next? So like what? So in other words, without a body and without knowledge of who did what with these four people, is that what is stalling this case? Well, I mean, the biggest thing, I don't know that we still don't know the evidence that law enforcement has. So it's hard to know what's stalling it exactly without knowing the evidence. But you'd have to think that clearly without without a body that that makes it more difficult to prosecute.

Right. And to not know what happened and to not know. And it doesn't help, right. it doesn't help that they were directed towards a body and they didn't find it, didn't find monkey. So, you know, that's, that's good, that would, something like that would confuse a jury. Although I think if you had a forensic psychologist or an expert explain the nature of this statement and the confession, I mean, you know, I don't, I don't know if it would be sufficient to, to sway a jury about

Stacey Wunder's involvement, but again, you know, if you go through a process of elimination, if you rule out coercion and you look at some of the details, and I think there's probably other, there's probably some other statements he's made on video

that we don't, we haven't seen. If by a process of elimination, it certainly looks like this confession is, accurate and valid and true. Some things that people are asking or stating that I want to bring up and ask you, Jenny states his cavalier demeanor was incredibly chilling.

Other people mentioning that he had no emotion. Yeah. Yeah. Carry on said this guy has almost no emotion. a lot of people mentioning this type of statement, can you help us understand what that is? Well, I think that's consistent with this idea being of him or whoever, you know, him or his co-conspirators burying the body in a garbage back.

You know, they just, they see this. I'm not quite sure what their motives would have been. if I had to speculate, I don't mean this to sound terrifying to our audience, but my guess is there could be some sex crimes here and that could be some of the motivation. But, you know, that would be a hypothesis

that I think this began maybe with something like that and ended with murder. But the garbage bag would be indicative of, again, like, garbage bags are not used to put bodies in, to put the bodies of children in. And when you do that, you're objectifying, you're dehumanizing that child. And so that would be consistent with someone who doesn't care. They have no emotion. They have no affect, which, you know, is not atypical of someone who would be classified as a psychopath

or someone with antisocial personality disorder. there's a lot of research on psychopaths that shows that psychopaths just don't, they don't have the emotional gene. They don't have a lot of emotion and, you know, that's consistent with someone who could bury a child in a garbage bag and not care or someone who commits, who could commit a horrendous crime and have no emotional resonance or no remorse, no guilt, no feelings around that crime. Anything else you would like to discuss tonight? Yeah, just the ending of that. I mean, that video is really short, but the thing about talking to his mother. Yeah.

I think is really interesting because it speaks to, there's something very regressive about this guy, you know, childlike, childish about this guy. And, you know, we see that a lot, by the way, with a lot of the criminals and the crimes we cover. And he doesn't want to talk to his wife. He's still married at the time, right? He doesn't want to talk to anyone.

He just wants his mommy, right? And so there's something very, very childish about this person, this human being and this, you know, potential criminal, alleged criminal. And his desire to reconnect with his mom, like, in a way, like he kind of wants to go back to, you know, childhood or being in the womb where he had no responsibilities. and where no one was blaming him for anything and where he wasn't culpable for committing a murder.

He doesn't want to deal with all the conflict. Even though he was obviously he chose to involve himself if he was. For him, I think that's an instance of him, this person seeking comfort and security and kind of this idea of returning to a state of dependency and helplessness where he doesn't, really have to deal with the consequences of such a horrendous action. I want to encourage people again to pay attention to this case, to share this case,

to let people know that it has not been solved, that nobody has been charged. And for those that they are new to this case, they're not yet heard of this case, I recommend our full Michael Vaughn playlist that you can find on YouTube. It's important. Anything else you'd like to say, John? Just, you know, with Brandy asking us to uphold this promise she made to Michael, to Michael, you know, I think it's, to me, that really pulls on my heartstrings. And, you know, there's people that know our show know that I talk about literature a lot. And that's, you know, this request to solve a crime or this request to do something extraordinary dry.

so many plots and so much literature, and it's a plot that moves me a lot. So I feel really compelled to help to assist her in fulfilling that promise. And we're going to do as much as we can. We're talking about some steps we can take to involve ourselves in this situation again a little bit. And so I just, you know, it's especially knowing, you know, Brandy didn't get into the details, but she's having some serious health problems. And we don't know how much time she has left. So I think that promise is really urgent. And I feel that urgency. And I would like to do as much as I can to help her fulfill that promise to Michael.

Yes, me too. I want to thank the YouTube clutch them pearls, the YouTube channel as well, that released these who got them through FOIA requests and release these. Thank you. You can go watch the full videos. We have a link to that in the description of our episode. Because of our interview with Brandy, we were a little bit shorter on time and we felt it was really important. As you point out, yes, she has one wish. So learn all you can about the. this case and if anybody has any information about it, let us know. Thank you. For those that do want to hear more of Dr. John, he has been on Patreon, patreon.com

slash shouldn't you crime weekly. We have been doing a weekly episodes there. I know that John always feels a little bit better on Patreon and so if you guys are wanting more of him. But never fear. We also have podcast season coming up on Delphi, Delphi, India. So thank you, everyone, for being here. And again, I would just reiterate, if anyone has any information or knows anyone that can contribute to solving this crime, please let us know either contact law enforcement.

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