Hidden True Crime - Psychologist Breaks Down His Interview with Accused Child Killer | Michael "Monkey" Vaughan Case

Episode Date: November 23, 2025

After the probable cause affidavit has come out, Dr. John compares his interview with Stacey to the affidavit... The moments that stand out, what he thinks a defense will be, and what Stacey's confessions mean. Sponsors Aura Frames: Exclusive $45-off Carver Mat at https://on.auraframes.com/HIDDEN . Promo Code HIDDEN Midi Health: Your health is worth it. Book your virtual visit today at http://JoinMidi.com AG1: Head to http://DRINKAG1.com/HIDDEN to get a FREE Welcome Kit with an AG1 Flavor Sampler and a bottle of Vitamin D3 plus K2, when you first subscribe! About Hidden True Crime What started as a simple conversation at their dinner table became a captivating podcast. Join the dynamic duo of Dr. John Matthias, a criminal psychologist, and Lauren Matthias, an investigative journalist, as they delve into the psychological facets of unthinkable crimes every week. Their unique perspectives and in-depth analysis offer a fresh take on true crime storytelling. Thank you for your support through sponsorships, subscribing, listening, and becoming a Patreon member at⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Patreon.com/HiddenTrueCrime⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Yeah. And when you don't have that, then something is not right. Something's abnormal. Correct. Hello, gems. So glad to be with all of you today. Wow, we have a lot to talk about when it comes to the Michael or Monkey Vaughn case. As many of you know by now, we have two arrested and charged with kidnapping and first degree murder, a five-year-old Michael Vaughn. and I just spent an episode reading to you the probable causes of both Stacey and Sarah Wundra, a married couple, Stacy, a male, Sarah, his wife at the time that monkey was kidnapped. And we've also heard your 2023 interview with Stacey Wondra, John.

And yeah, I want to hear your thoughts now. You know, you and I have been talking about this. And I think all of us are actually quite anxious to hear your thoughts. This has been one of the most heartbreaking cases we have followed and covered while I'm so grateful that there's, you know, some understanding coming to light. It's heartbreaking, though, that Michael has still not been found and his family is hurting. They say that they still want to bring him home and are requesting that. Stacey, Sarah, or Adrian or Brandon, two people that are suspects in this case, let them know where Michael is.

So we will remember them in this episode and their unanswered questions. But yes, I want to know what your thoughts are. I know that you recently revisited the interview you do with them, which you don't like to do. You don't like to listen to yourself. But you revisited and listened. and I've read the probable causes. What are your thoughts? Where are you now?

Well, I think the interview, there's two parts to the interview. There's a brief history. And I say brief history because I only had, I think I had maybe an hour, maybe a little less than an hour to kind of interview him and get a quick history on his past

and his childhood, which is always important to me. Normally I would spend more time with that. Normally I'd spend hours, maybe four to six hours on that alone. So this was kind of a really brief history. But I think there were some things we learned. I think our listeners can review and listen to this history and pick up some elements that we tend to find in the criminal psyche. And again, let me just point out, I'm not saying.

that Stacy or Sarah Wondra are guilty. They're charged. They haven't been convicted, so this is all alleged. But there's certainly some interesting elements in his history that would suggest that he might be capable of committing this crime. And so, and of course, to finally have murder charges, I think is a positive step in this case. But there's really two components here.

In the interview I did, I wanted to get a brief history, and then I wanted to kind of assess the crime itself. And, you know, there's some little things from that interview that I didn't think were important at all that now really stand out. And I want to bring some of those to light. Okay. Yeah. I agree. I'll talk about that.

So one of the obvious things we were curious to know was what happened on the evening of July 27th of 2021. What happened to Michael? And would we ever have some reasonable explanation for what happened? And I think this is probably the closest we're going to get to that. The probable cause. I know you read the probable cause, but I'm going to read it again just as a kind of an introduction to our discussion. Parts of this, the part I'm going to read are going to be important. So I want to kind of just summarize some of this statement and the probable cause affidavit for our listeners again.

And then I'm going to pick up on pieces of this. So on November 10th, 2022, this is from the probable cause. On November 10th, 2022, Stacey again asked to speak with Fruitland police detectives. Stacey wanted a, quote, deal, unquote, the same offer that was given to Sarah. Stacey admitted that M, we know, obviously, this is Michael, admitted that Michael had been in the house the night of M's abduction. Stacey admitted that tricycle had been in his garage where Kim Elko had previously described seeing it. And this, so this is the, this is the description. So it's important to note, by the way, that this is a confession, right?

That the bulk of this evidence they have for this probable cause statement is essentially a confession. Right. And we'll talk about that more because Stacey addresses that in my interview. So we're going to know, you're going to know from my interview what his defense is going to be. Stacey then said that when he first saw Michael, Sarah was carrying Michael into their house. Stacey said Michael was put into a duffel bag to transport him out of their house into Brandon's house in Kuna. Stacey said Sarah was frantic trying to figure out what to do and Brandon interjected, quote, I have a duffel bag.

Stacy described Michael as crying, and to prevent him from moving or making noise, Stacey described how Sarah taped Michael using duct tape. When asked to put Michael in the bag, Stacey said, Brandon grabbed the bag and gave it to Sarah. Sarah picked up Michael as Adrian helped hold the sides of the bag open as they shoved Michael in the duffel bag. Stacey described Michael to get away. Stacey said he could see Michael.

in the bag with his knees bent up in the fetal position. While describing and demonstrating how Michael was taped and stuffed into a duffel bag in his living room, Stacey had a physical reaction and began violently vomiting. When asked if he was vomiting because of the chewing tobacco he was using, he indicated he was throwing up because of the stress of talking about Michael. He talks briefly about the GMC truck pulling over before they left. I'll talk about that in a minute. There were two reasons.

One is the power steering fluid, which he talked about with me. The other is the second reason is, quote, so Brandon could check to see if Michael was still alive because Michael was bound with duct tape and stuffed into a duffel bag and the bed of the truck. Stacey said he was able to hear Michael making noises like a, quote, dull scream, unquote. Stacey said they were worried about being seen

because they saw a car parked off of South Arizona Avenue. Stacey said they drove straight to Brandon's mother's house in Kuna, Idaho, where Brandon grabbed both bags, the duffel bag containing Michael in a backpack, and went into the house by himself. Stacey said that once they arrived in Kuna, Michael was not making any more noises, and none of them had checked on Michael to verify he was still alive. Stacey said that Brandon told him he left Michael in the bag and put him in the spare room inside his mother's house. I mean, reading that just broke my heart. I know. There's no other, reading that was so difficult. I mean, just the absolute lack of empathy,

the absolute indifference to this little boy in this duffel bag, kicking and screaming, they put him in this duffel bag, they duct tape him, he's kicking, he's screaming, he's wiggling, he's trying to get out, he's in pain, obviously, he's fighting for his life, and they don't care. They dump him in the back of the pickup truck. They don't even, it's like an afterthought.

He says here, once they arrived in Kuna, Michael was not making any more noises and none of them had checked on him to verify it was still alive. Like they didn't, that never occurred to them. Yeah. And what's, but they didn't even look. They didn't even wonder. They didn't even wonder. They didn't even wonder.

They didn't even. It was like once they put him in the devil bag, they already had made the decision to murder him. And they were, because that appeared to be their decision, they were completely indifferent. They were completely blasé. They were completely immune to his suffering.

It's just mind-boggling, right? Like, this. story is so heart-wrenching and so disturbing. You know, at the time of this crime, one of the reasons why this had such an emotional resonance for me was because our little boy was four and Michael Vaughn was five. And in talking to Brandy about Michael, I think we both, I think we both, I think we both recognized that Michael was such a special little kid. So filled with empathy.

And that's one of the reasons you went up and you went up for Christmas and... Monkey's Miracle. You gave away presents for Monkey's Miracle because that's what Monkey wanted. Monkey had expressed to his mother that all he wanted was to make other kids happy. He liked giving gifts to people. He liked giving gifts and to bring them joy. and to see how this little boy's life ended is just so despicable and indescribable and heartless. I read this and it was just, I was so angry.

I was so angry. So it was very disturbing to read this and revisit this. the supposed motive for this alleged murder turns out to be financial. So, in the probable cause for those who missed this, I'm sure

most people picked up on this, but here's the motive. It's one sentence, quote, Stacy stated that the idea to take a child to sell for money was Adrian's and they would get a $10,000 cut. So presumably, at least according to this statement, this sentence, presumably the reason why Michael was abducted was because they believed, and by the way, he talks about this in my

interview, he says that there was some talk around Adrian being involved in human trafficking, so that would make sense. Right. Whether that's real or not, it doesn't really. it doesn't matter for our purposes. The fact that Stacey believed that Adrian somehow had connections to human trafficking and could sell a child for $10,000,

that was what appealed to him. And so in my interview, one of the things I asked about when I started talking about the crime was how he met Brandon, Shirtlet, and how he met Adrian. And it turns out, that

he, according to Stacy, he met Brandon through, he was, he was working, Brandon was working for a moving company in 2020. He was having a hard time financially. And Stacy and Sarah wanted to help him out. So he was,

or he was working for a movie company. He spent a night or two at their home. He complained about having a hard time and they invited him to live there, contingent upon pain. some rent. Adrian, he was, according to Stacy, they had a business. He called it a taxi business, but I presume he meant like Uber or Lyft or some type of ride share, I assume. I believe so, yes. So they met Adrian through, he called it a taxi ride, but I presume he meant Uber.

Right. But Adrian was homeless and needed a place to live. So Stacey said that he believed that Sarah had an affair with Adrian, and that's when they kicked him out in August. But prior to that, it was the same circumstance. They both felt sorry for Adrian. They felt sorry for Brandon. They invited it into their home, and that's why they live there. So what does all of this, what does any of that have to do with this case?

Obviously, they're all accomplices. The two have been charged with murder. Two clearly were co-conspirators. They were all there. According to cell phone data, they were all there on the evening of the abduction and murder. So all four had some knowledge of this, presumably. You're on a GLP1.

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than those following standard nutritional advice alone. See the 2025 study published in the AJCN. But what is it they all share in common? They're all somewhat destitute. They're all struggling financially. Right. That Brandon is pretty much homeless. Adrian's pretty much homeless.

Stacy and Sarah are living at Sarah's mother's home. I don't know if they had to pay rent, but they're all struggling financially. That's what they all have in common. So this idea, this makes sense, right, from the probable cause. This idea that they could sell a child for money for $10,000 per each person, it fits the context. It fits the situation.

They take in these homeless grifters, one presumably with some ties to human trafficking. I don't know if that's true. I don't know anything about Adrian's history. But they take in these two grifters, these people that are sort of struggling in every way, it seems. They're fairly low-functioning human beings. And they apparently hatch this plan to abduct a child, to sell. for money. So that's consistent, by the way,

with what Stacey told me. Yeah. He indicated that Brandon and Adrian both struggled, that Adrian had some history of human trafficking. That would fit this scenario. So I think it's important to frame this discussion with that and to say that that on the surface appears to be a fairly straightforward motive.

So I think that's interesting. in the interview, there's also another interesting moment in this interview. There's a few I want to point out, but there's another moment. And this is my interview I'm talking about here. By the way, we're releasing it publicly for the first time. We had it in Patreon because at the time of the interview, certain people requested that we try to perform this interview to get information that could help with the investigation. and they asked us to keep it private. Correct.

So we honored that request. That's why it was private. And now that there's a probable cause and an arrest for murder, we feel like we can release this publicly for the first time. So that's why we're doing it. Well, and we, yes, it was in the last episode. Anyone that wants to hear the Dr. John interview, Stacey, that's in our previous episode.

in the interview with Stacy that I conducted, he says he left the house at 6.15 p.m. And quote, he says, quote, I noticed a kid playing down the road, but it wasn't Michael. He said he thought the boy was eight to nine years old. He thought he was playing in his own yard. He said he was standing in the yard by himself. And then he said they left town at 640. So we know from the timeline in the probable cause statement that Michael leaves the home somewhere between 615 and 630. And he's not really seen again after 645 to 650.

So going back and looking at the actual timeline and looking at my interview, it's actually somewhat chilling. that he gives me an accounting. I believe that he gives me an accounting of what happened here, which is this kid that supposedly wasn't Michael, I believe was Michael. I agree with you, yeah. So the timeline is absolutely consistent with the probable cause. It's consistent with when Michael left the house.

So is it just chance that Stacey Wonder leaves the home at 615? and then pulls over to put staring fluid in his car, supposedly put steering fluid in his car. And all of a sudden he sees a child who happens to be eight or nine. He sees a child down the road in a yard. Well, he said a little bit older. He said, oh, right. He said eight or nine.

You're right. He did. That's how old he said. So I asked him, I said, how long does it take to put in steering fluid? He said 20 seconds or something like that. I said, well, no, I mean, by getting out, opening the hood, how long is the whole process? Five minutes. So they stop, leave the house at 615, roughly 620, they put in the steering fluid.

So what happens during the rest of the, what about the unaccounted for 25 minutes? Right. According to his confession. And the probable cause. Right. According to his confession and the probable cause, he says that Michael was already in a duffel bag in the back of the truck. However, since Michael, that would imply that Michael would have been at the house already, that doesn't necessarily add up. So it seems to me more likely that they stop for the steering fluid.

They notice Michael playing down the road. They abduct him. They put him in the duffel bag. And then they head back to, or they, I don't know. know if they went back to the home. It's not clear what happens after that. Yeah. It's not entirely clear what happens after that. By some accounts, according to Stacy, they headed up to Kuna, Idaho, but that's not entirely consistent with the cell phone data. It's a little confusing. And by the way, being an Idahoan, I haven't been correcting you, but I was once Idaho, and it's Kuna.

Kuna. Okay. So that, That was another interesting moment, I think, that if Michael leaves the home, roughly, his home, roughly at 615, it seems virtually impossible that he could have been in the Wonder Home prior to that, I think. So I think it's possible here that Stacey is essentially in the interview I did, he's essentially telling me when the abduction. occurred, how it occurred. And based on what he told the detectives, it seems like this duffel bag is an important component of

the abduction. Yeah. As far as the timeline goes, I want to know what you say, Sue. We have that according to the probable cause, Detective, uh,

well, Anita Kelleherer of the Fruitland Police Department, Michael was last seen between 615, 6.30. knocking on neighbor's doors. By 6.45, his father, Tyler, realized Michael wasn't in the house. By 721, he called 911.

Right, right. But the piece I was trying to figure out is when did they when did they actually take off? Right. For Kuna, right? And I think I wrote it down somewhere. I think it was a little bit later.

It was not, it was like, 1908 hours. So 708. Okay. So between roughly six and between 615 and 708, what happens exactly? Right. So there's definitely a gap in time between when they see this child playing down this kid, playing down the road and when they leave. they don't they don't pull over put in this power supposedly put in the power steering fluid

and then take off immediately they're clearly they're doing other things in that time frame right so there another part of the interview i did that i didn't pick up on it all because i didn't again i didn't know anything so a lot of this information by the way a lot of this information was obviously kept from the public. There were certain people, I presume, that Brandy knew about it, and Tyler probably knew about it, but we did not. Even though we were encouraged to help in certain ways, we didn't know details. So one of the details now that I think is particularly interesting for my interview

that I just completely didn't understand. what I was doing the interview has to do with the duffel bag. Yeah. Yeah, let's talk about that. He brought up a duffel bag in your interview with him. Take a listen. Got everything ready. Brandon, you know, got all of his clothes ready and because he had a bunch of clothes, dirty clothes.

And so he got his clothes ready, put him in his duffel bag. and we went through the garage and I threw the toes trap at the back of the truck and then we took off. So this is really fascinating to me because this duffel bag is going to play a big role in this crime. He says, and I'm going to quote it again here to reiterate the importance of this,

he tells me in the interview, quote, Brandon got his clothes ready and put them in a duffel bag, which if they're heading up to Kuna. Kuna. Kuna. I'm never going to get that right. So it's just. You can stick to Kuna and we'll know that you never lived in Idaho.

I was the one that was an Idaho reporter. So it's okay. Just go back. If you're telling this story about the timeline and the day of the murder, the alleged murder. Here's what's really critical about this. There's really no reason to tell me about Brandon getting his clothes and putting him in a duffel bag. That's irrelevant to this story.

If the story is going to get his car up in Idaho and to bring it back, to bring it back, it doesn't matter whether Brandon has his clothes ready. he has them in a duffel bag. It doesn't matter. But it does matter if that's a salient part of the story that sticks out in your memory. Correct. So in other words, why is he telling me about the duffel bag? Because to him, it's a significant factor in this crime.

To him, it's one of the most significant elements. It's one of the most salient elements in his memory on that day. And so there's absolutely no reason for him to say that Brandon got his clothes and put him in a duffel bag unless something else is going on. This is a way for him to try to reconstruct those events to make sense of the duffel bag that we now know has a body in it. So he's retelling this story and attempt to reconstruct the crime in a way that makes sense to him so that he doesn't feel guilt. Right. But what's really interesting is that he throws it out there for me.

Like when he told me, I'm like, I thought, okay, that's interesting, but like I don't really care about Brandon's clothes in a duffel bag. Why is that relevant? Right? Well, it's relevant because Stacey Wondra is trying to tell the story with the most important element in that story in such a way that he brings that in, but also minimizes it. Correct.

Correct. He says later on in the interview, again, he keeps going back to this duffel bag. He says, when they arrived at Brandon's mother's home, Brandon, quote, washed his laundry at his mom's house. And again, here we are back to the duffel bag. Like, I don't, okay, like, Brandon's, I don't know, Brandon's like attachment to laundry and clothes and his duffel bag like none of that is really relevant to the story or to anything I'm asking him and yet here it comes up again and you're ready for this

and then here's what he says he quote Brandon quote went back the following day so we could dry his clothes okay I didn't ask about Brandon's clothes or drying his clothes but here it is again the clothes in the duffel bag The clothes and the duffel bag, right. So when I listen to this again, and that's three times he's talked about this duffel bag. Yeah. Clearly there's some guilt here. But here's what I want,

here's what I picked up on is, and again, this is not something that would be easy to prove in court, but for our analysis, I can say it because I'm speculating. if you substitute the word clothes or laundry with monkey's body, I think you have a better sense of what happened. So let's go back to us. Brandon got his quote, clothes ready and put them in a dump.

Brandon got monkey's body ready and put it in a duffel bag. Brandon, quote, washed monkey's body as his mom's house, and he went back the following day so he could dry his, body. Dry doesn't fit here. Let's say dry means hide. Prepare, cover up, right?

Like, I think the metaphor here is that clothes and laundry stand in for monkey. Yeah. And I think, obviously, Stacey Wondera isn't going to say that. He's trying to deny his involvement in this murder. But I think now listening to it,

it's really disturbing. to see this emphasis on a duffel bag, which I didn't, I had no idea that monkey's body was placed in a duffel bag until I read the probable cause the other day. And so I think in a way, this is a bit or potentially an admission of guilt or it shows some guilty conscience. And there's no, again, there's no reason for Stacey Wonder to emphasize this duffel bag other than the fact that he knows this duffel bag has a lot of emotional. important and a lot of emotional meaning.

And because of that, he can't leave it out of this story. He keeps coming back to it. And he's trying to reconstruct it in his memory to make sense to him so he feels less guilt. So I think of all the elements of that interview, this is the most unexpected one. On this issue of the duffel bag, I really want to compliment Lauren for picking up on this detail that I really missed. because I was focused mainly on the timeline. So the next day when Lauren interviewed Stacey Live on our channel, she pushed him on this duffel bag issue.

And what he said was actually quite chilling. He brought up the fact that he believed a body would not fit into that duffel bad. Let's take a listen. Gosh, if you want to say, look, I'm innocent, and it's about time the police clear me. getting this kind of alibi solidified is like it's kind of like the priority right

like you've got an alibi that's okay there you go there you go like we're done like you're innocent so this is me kind of trying to like help you be like gosh let's get this figured out like so what you're saying is you packed

did you pack a duffel bag too to go to Qa was that brandon Brandon had a bunch of clothes because he brought his clothes initially from Qaeda um had some dirty clothes um I watched him grab because he stayed on the couch Brandon always slept on the couch so watched him grab his duffel bag before we left um it was open nothing in it you know completely empty and watched him put all of his dirty clothes inside the duffel bag and zip it up okay so so that That night, the night the monkey went missing, there was a duffel bag.

How big was it? How big was a duffel bag? It was small. I mean, it was not a giant duffel bag. This duffel bag that had like a shoulder strap on it and like the two little handles that Velcro, you could put the Velcro around it to hold the handles together. It was a small duffel bag. I mean, it was not big enough to put a body in.

Okay. Yeah, wow. And do you know what that didn't even cross my mind. But okay. So a small duffel bag. What was it? And it was full of laundry, you said? Or what was it?

Nothing but clothes. Branded's clothes. Okay. And that was at 5 p.m.? And you guys all went together. Yes. That moment is so important when he says it's too small for a body. Lauren didn't even ask him about a body.

And yet he brings it up. It's almost like a confession. He says he watched Brandon put his dirty clothes in that bag, and he watched him zip it up. But if you realize that those dirty clothes are a fill-in for Monkey, in other words, when he says dirty clothes, he's referring to Monkey, you realize how horrendous this is. And he keeps talking about how small the bag is,

how tight it must have been. You get the idea that Monkey suffered a great deal and that these people watched as Monkey was stuffed into this duffel bag. And, you know, I would ask our listeners to kind of weigh in on this because it's a really, this is, by the way, this is what criminals do. They'll use symbols and metaphors and images that are pertinent to a crime that they're trying to deny, and they'll inadvertently bring those into the story when they have no relevance to the story because they're kind of telling you in a subconscious way.

They're telling you some of the components or elements of that crime that they can't tell you overtly or consciously. And Stacey Wunder is doing it here. It also raises a question for me, by the way, about where monkey's body is. Yeah, are there any tells there? I wonder, and again, I'm sure law enforcement has looked at this, but it makes me wonder if the story is that they return monkey's body to the home in Fruitland, to the Wonder Home in Fruitland, and then they...

Buried him. And then they supposedly buried him in the yard. But we know now, of course, that the body was never found in the yard. I wonder if... I don't know that this group is smart enough to pull this off, but I wonder if that was in some ways a misdirection. Maybe the body is up at Brandon's mother's home somewhere in that vicinity. I wonder, I always, yeah, I was just assumed they moved the body, but you're right.

They did dig, I think they buried a stuffed animal that he had had, but. No, that was, that was, that turned out to be, supposedly that turned out to, that was the green dog toy. Correct. Where they found an ear from the toy that the supposed. supposedly they gave the toy to monkey. Right. But I wonder if, you know, again, taking the laundry as kind of a substitute for monkey's body, I wonder if when he says we went back to, we went back the following day, so he went back to following day so he could dry his clothes.

I wonder if that's a way of saying he went back to the following day so he could hide monkey's body or dispose of it, right, or something along those. lines. I don't know. It's it's definitely something that that occurred to me. I mean, there's there's other possible interpretations. Obviously, Sarah, Sarah was at the home. She could have moved it. Well, Adrienne or Brant, I mean, they, you know, Stacey did lead police at one point to where his body would be. You know, I watched him in that body camp footage describe in detail this is where you will find Michael I do wonder you know he gave them great great deal on where the body was going I do wonder if they moved the body while Stacy was in jail yeah I think that's possible but I also think there's other possibilities in terms of if they did take the body

up to Brandon's mother's home you know perhaps it could be in that area I don't know I mean hopefully one of these four will review you of the location of the body eventually. Although I probably wouldn't hold my breath. I think if they're convicted, there's maybe a greater chance of that. When it comes to weight loss, you don't need more advice. You need more of what works. That's Weight Watchers, with real tools designed to take the guesswork out of what to eat,

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When you say that this is what criminals do and you say that Stacey's denying his involvement, do you really think, well, do you really think he's denying it or do you, to him, well, he's clearly denying it. Do you think he's denying it to himself? like he's like I'd have nothing to do with this there's no way or do you think that he's just trying he knows that he did this and he's trying to deny it to you like for example lorry vallow seems to deny it to herself you know um i think we we talked about this a few episodes ago where i talked about this idea of what

what's what's called one of the psychological first principles for human beings which is that almost every human being. So just to reiterate the argument, it is that human beings believe that we have what's called a true self. We believe that that true self is often moral, and we adhere to this idea that human beings are good and reasonable people, no matter what. And that any time there's a threat to being seen as a good person,

we will resort to any defensive maneuver to try to dispel that threat. We will do whatever we can to maintain the perception. Even among the most hardened criminals, this research is compelling and there's a good deal of it. We will do whatever we have to to maintain the perception that we're good people. And in order to do that, obviously, we have to resort to denial, minimization. we have to resort to a number of defense mechanisms to make that happen. So I think that Stacey fluctuates between moments when he knows he did it. He knows Sarah did it.

He knows all these people were involved. He knows exactly what happened. I think he oscillates between that and between trying to defend himself and to maintain this belief that he's a good person and that he didn't do anything wrong. And in those moments, I think he's obviously engaged. aging in certain defenses or utilizing certain defenses to try to make himself feel better. Yeah, he does talk a lot about how wonderfully he is and that he would never hurt anyone, let alone a child and that he wishes the best for the Vaughan-Neil family.

He says, I asked him, what are some of your positive qualities? There's what he said, quote, fun, carrying, energetic, optimistic, loyal, and driven. right? That's consistent with someone who sees themselves. In the interview, if people listen to this interview, you'll see that he fundamentally sees himself as a very positive, upbeat person. And yet that's not consistent. If you pay attention to the history that he gives me, it's not consistent with his history at all, right?

I mean, let's go through some of his history quickly. He was in special ed his entire life and bullied and made fun of. He was called derogatory names. throughout middle school, elementary and middle school. That's so sad. He was diagnosed, according to him. I'm not diagnosing here, according to him. He was diagnosed with FAS, Fido Alcohol Syndrome, with autism,

intermittent explosive disorder, bipolar disorder. He was taking all kinds of medications for supposedly as a child for those things. Also a low IQ too, correct? Well, his IQ, he starts off by saying his IQ was 57, then 60, then 70, now 80, He's all over the map with his IQ. It's probably not reasonable to start with an IQ of 57 and then kick it up to 80. Right. So I don't know.

I don't think that's relevant. I think his inconsistency there is really hard to make sense of. He tells us that he was very angry, although he was, according to him, although he was never violent, even though he said he fought back against bullies. He got into a number of fights with these bullies. He's saying that he never engaged in violence. That's a type of violence. He said he was really angry as a child.

He often, quote, snapped by throwing toys, breaking things. He engaged in self-harming behaviors, including swallowing staples. He said, quote, I had a rough time as a kid. He describes being in his marriage to Sarah being toxic. At one point, according to him, he was held at gunpoint. with a loaded shotgun in 2020, two years after their marriage. I mean, he described himself as a very needy kid with a lot of behavioral issues. He said that his stepmom Tammy often sacrificed everything for him at the expense of her own biological children.

I mean, is any of that? So my question is, is any of that consistent with someone who describes themselves as, quote, fun, carry energetic, optimistic, loyal, driven. And I think he says something like he's focused on goals or something. I didn't use the term goals, but. I mean, maybe people are complex, but not caring. Not caring.

I agree, but I'm saying there's, there's, there's, there's, the question is whether any of that had an impact on this crime. Yeah. Whether it had an impact on his relationships, whether it had an impact on his relationships, whether it had an impact on the fact that he's he's befriending these homeless drifters or grifters or drift whatever they are. Brandon and Adrian, these people on the cusp of the community and the cusp of society, right on the periphery of society, he's befriending them.

Although he says he wants to help them, you know, that they help people. So he wants to help them. Right, but still. That could be caring to him. You know, I don't know. No, I agree. I'm just saying that I agree that there's complexity here, but on the other hand, there's also a certain level of denial.

Yeah. One of the things I wanted him to talk about was how did all of those wounds and all of that pain affect you? And he basically said it didn't. I asked him, so both his parents, both his biological parents died from drug overdoses. His dad in 1991, before his birth in 1990. 92 and his mother in 2003, I asked him if that affected him. He said, quote, it never affected me.

Even though he described one visit with his mother where she pushed him on the floor that he remembered, I guess what I'm saying is that you have this disconnect potentially between this difficult childhood and this perception of himself as this loving, kind, optimistic, energetic, driven person. And that's not to say he doesn't have some of those qualities. I'm just saying I think there's a certain level of negation. There's a certain level of denial about this pain that he's experienced as a kid and how to deal with it. How do you integrate that?

How do you go from that? And maybe, I don't know, I didn't really talk to him about this. Maybe he's been in a lot of therapy. He was in group homes for a lot of his life. but how do you how do you integrate that type of childhood with who you are in such a way that you come out the other end saying that you're just a fun caring, loving person, right? Maybe you are.

But in order to get there, you're probably going to have to do some work. You're probably going to have to engage in a certain amount of introspection. You're probably, at the very least, I would expect you to acknowledge some of that pain. I would expect you to write to accept it and acknowledge and be able to talk about if you are this person you say you are then show me

tell me express that to me say yeah John you know I went through this horrible childhood it was so painful it was so hard I went through hell but I worked it out this is what I did

he doesn't say that he says ah it was no big deal I outgrew it I got over it? Okay. You know, maybe he did. Maybe he did, but is that believable? No.

Right. Yeah, it was listening to his childhood, it is very traumatic. To an average person, you're thinking, oh my gosh, like, this is horrible. Orphan, foster care, adoption, group homes. all these different diagnoses, being a troubled kid, the bullying. Being group home, being on all this medication, taking, you know, basically being ostracized in his adoptive family because he's taking all this time and attention away from Tammy's biological kids

who probably resent him for it. He doesn't want to talk about that. I asked him about that. He shied away from talking about that. And how about this? I asked him to move out in any traumas. You know what his response? Did you have any traumas?

I mean, putting aside the fact that everything he's talked about is traumatic. Right. This is a traumatic life, childhood. Putting aside the fact that the bullying in and of itself is sufficient, is usually a sufficient trauma to push a lot of kids over the edge, potentially. Towards, right? Towards, I don't know, acting out. Towards substance abuse, whatever.

Not towards murder, maybe towards murder in the right circumstances, but towards unhealthy behaviors, right? And he won't acknowledge that. So I asked him, did you experience any traumas? And he said, no, he didn't. He was basically, here's what he said. I'm good. No traumas. Oh, wait, but wait a minute, John, there is one thing.

I was, I was bull riding as a kid. And it crushed one of my testicles. So I'm not fertile because of this accident. This occurred when he was 15 years old. So what's... Did he even call this a trauma, though? I think even that came up because he said he couldn't have kids, but Sarah could. Yeah.

I don't even know. I don't even think he referred to that as a trauma. It was sort of a side-no. I think he didn't exactly, but he tried, I think he kind of sort of tried to squeeze it into the trauma category. But, but here's my point. point on this of 15, for a 15 year old to experience that and to maybe recognize the implications, I don't know if he knew the implications of that, that he, you know, he was basically to use his term infertile. There's something really, for lack of a bet, there's something really, I think,

emasculating about that. And, you know, this is, this, I see this all the time, by the way, with, with murderers and serial killers that, that they feel emasculated. that they have injuries like him or they have their impotent they have ed like they rectile dysfunction like they can't they associate a lot of their masculinity with this sexual component kind of this stereotype about the hyper masculine male that can have sex on demand right and like he's 15 when this happens. And he doesn't acknowledge that at all. He's just like, you know, easy come, easy go, right? Like, so you're helping me understand that it's not the trauma that creates criminal behavior because that's something we're always talking about here. Like, how dare you say

that just because, you know, I deal with this, you're equating it. And it's not the trauma that creates a bad behavior, it's maybe not acknowledging the trauma or facing the trauma. Is that kind of what you're saying? It's how one deals with it, acknowledges it? Is that what you're saying? So there's a psychiatrist or a psychologist, I'm sorry, that I sometimes like to quote who says, if you can't tell your story, your story tells you. Right? He can't tell his story. So given this inability to articulate this story

and to understand the implications of it, especially at an emotional level, then the story will tell you. These wounds and this pain and the suffering will typically, because you don't understand this and because you don't feel this, and because you can't get control of this story, you will act out in a way that you probably won't understand.

Okay. And so it's clear that he doesn't have the insight or the self-awareness or the knowledge or the emotional intelligence to tell this story in a way that's compelling or makes sense. The way he tells the story is, I went through these traumas, I went through this hard childhood, but I got over it,

and I became a fun-carrying, energetic, optimistic, loyal-driven, human being in spite of all of this, even though you go from A to C, but there's no B, right? There's no, there's no journey to get to see. You don't get to see without some insight or some work or some understanding or acceptance or awareness, right? That's the problem. Yeah. If you go from A to C without that journey in the middle, then in many ways,

ways you're at risk. Yeah. And it could be at risk for something as simple as substance abuse. I asked him about that. He denied it. But certainly one area where he has problems is in relationships. I think at the very least, you'd have to say that there's some attachment issues, almost certainly an insecure attachment based on the fact that his mother wasn't there.

right he was adopted 17 months so there were there were problems in those very early years I don't know how bad it was but this is a child this is a baby who probably never developed a secure attachment almost certainly never developed a secure attachment

to his mother and because of that you know he has struggles connecting he has struggles dealing with his emotions he has struggles with self-awareness All of that could be related to attachment, but it begins then. It begins in those early years. And again, there's no attempt really to figure that out.

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Right. He brings this up. So I questioned him towards the end of the interview, I questioned him about why we're would Sarah basically accuse you of murder? And I knew a little bit back then. Obviously now I have the whole picture with this probable cause statement, but I knew enough to know that Sarah had pointed the finger at him and had said that he committed the murders.

So here's what he said about Sarah. He said, Sarah is, quote, Sarah is completely psycho. She goes off on tangents. He says he believed that she was quote, living in a demonic state of mind. So he's, none of that,

by the way, is saying that he didn't do it. He's just saying that she's given the wrong account. Yeah. But this is, so he's blaming her. This is where it gets interesting. So I followed up a little more

and I said, well, why would she say that? And that's what he said. And then basically pointed out that he also acknowledged some involvement in the murders, I'm sorry, in the murder. Also pointed out that he acknowledged some involvement

in the murder to detectives. And here's what he says. He says, with FAS, meaning fetal alcohol syndrome, when you get interrogated and there's pressure, quote, the automatic response is to get someone off your back. Yeah, I remember that.

He says, when there's someone much, he said there was so much pressure that he was in tears and he wanted to say, I don't know anything, but he said some things that weren't true. What he's saying is that he gave a compliant false confession. So his argument is that because he was interrogated under a lot of pressure that he lied to police and told them what they wanted to hear, that's called a compliant false confession. So that's the typical, that's the type of confession we typically think of when you have, you know, a detective in a room screaming and shouting at someone and not letting him to go to the bathroom and keeping them in a room for 15 hours straight, right? That's, that's a confession that's coerced and that's exactly what he's saying.

That's what he told me that he was coerced into making a false confession. And I believe that's going to be the basis of his defense. by the way. So I presume, I don't know, I presume that these confessions are all on, were recorded. And I believe that those recordings are going to be so important. Those recordings are going to be fundamental to this murder trial

because you're going to, I'm sure they're going to have to bring in experts arguing or debating whether these confessions were coerced, whether they were appropriate, whether the police followed normal protocols, right? All of these things, I think, are now going to come into play because he essentially told us. So essentially, he's already telling us what the defense is going to be. I don't know if a defense attorney is going to have the resources to bring in all kinds of experts to get into this issue. I'm not sure what kind of resource the state is going to provide for his defense, right?

of that could come into play because this could just could be a very expensive time-consuming defense, by the way. My guess is that a defense attorney is probably initially going to try to cut a deal and try to get him to acknowledge guilt. But we'll see. I think if it does go to trial, my guess is it's going to primarily revolve around this issue of his confessions and what those look like and whether he was coerced, why he made them, right, that type of thing. Because ultimately,

the bulk of this probable cause statement is a confession or confession series of confessions. And then you have this tricycle, which is an interesting component. You have the live sent canines that are pointing towards their home. So according to the, probable cause, they stopped by 300 different homes and they were only interested in one single

home, which was the Wonders home. I mean, you have, you have components like that throughout the probable cause. I think some of those are interesting. I think if you put all those pieces together, it does become more compelling, but it's still circumstantial. Sure. So I do have some slight concerns about the circumstantial nature. of this case? When you say he's indifferent

and cold and I agree with you, sorry, I'm going back, but I have questions that I haven't had answered, so Okay. You read that, I agree with you. The callous is the indifference,

the horrific nature of this crime that's laid out in the probable cause. You know, why is he throwing up? I feel like he has no empathy whatsoever. That's how much I see this.

It's maddening to me. It's really upsetting me. And, I mean, that's so what it takes to be so callous, I can't fathom. What's that about? Is he throwing up because of, what people are going to think of him,

what he just realized he's capable of doing, getting caught. Yeah, well, he tells police he's throwing up because he says it's because of the stress of talking about Michael. And obviously, let's take him in his word. So the stress of realizing or facing the reality

of his involvement in a brutal murder where he could have, any one of these four people could have stopped this that's what's so sick four adults four adults like at one point one of them could been like you know what enough like open the duffel bag just let them go take the take the child when you're holding the duffel bag open which is what apparently adrian was doing they were all they were all according to this according to the probable cause or according to according to according Right, according to the probable cause, they were all involved in placing him in either touching or placing him in the duffel bag. The duffel bag belonged to Brandon, who said, I have a duffel bag.

And then Sarah taped his mouth with duct tape. Brandon grabbed the bag and gave it to Sarah. Sarah picked up Michael as Adrian helped hold the sides of the bag open as they shoved Michael into the duffel bag. They're all involved. Why didn't Brandon say enough grab the child, run out the door and find help or take him home, right? What, like, no, I know. And then, and then for Sarah's account and her probable cause, Sarah's probable cause account, she sees monkey's mother outside crying later that night.

Yeah. And just goes home. Right. I mean, just the way they do this. And then let's, again, let's assume that this is accurate to some degree. Placing Michael in this duct taping him, stuffing him in the duffel bag, they can hear him screaming. They see him moving.

He's in the back of the truck. And they don't even, like, as he said, they stopped once to supposedly do the steering fluid. They heard him screaming, but they didn't care. They didn't do anything. They just kept driving. And then they're on this trip that takes, what, an hour? I forget.

They're on this trip. And they're indifferent. They're just like, okay, yeah, we got this little boy in the back and a duffel bag. He's kicking and screaming. And now he's not making any more noise. Like, okay. So what? Like, it's, which also, by the way, like,

the other thing I thought of when I read this is this has like Fargo. This has Fargo. tones all over it. You remember the movie Fargo? Remember how absurd? So this guy starts out with this plot to get money by basically having these two thugs kidnap his wife, right? And then he's going to, he's going to demand ransom because his wife, his wife's father, his father-in-law is wealthy, and he thinks he'll pay the ransom, and it'll solve all his problems. So it's about money, right? And like, of course, the crime goes south quickly because the two, the two criminals he hires are just, you know, they're these bumbling idiots and they, like, the whole thing

gets botched, right? This feels like that in many ways. Yeah. This feels like that in the sense that also, if your, if your goal is to get money, if your goal is to sell this child into trafficking, which would have been equally horrible, but if that's your goal, if you're trying to get money from this somehow, then you would presume they would be a little bit concerned about the health I know. Of the child, right? That's right. They feel like they, yeah, right, that their plan was going south and they then just

didn't care, the indifference, rather than saying, yeah, I don't know. Yeah, rather than saying, hey, let's. Right, there's this disconnect. It's sort of go. Fargo. that once it becomes clear that the plan has problems or there's miscommunications and it starts going south, then all these people start getting killed. And here I feel like maybe it was never about money.

I mean, I'm not sure either. I know. You know, Stacey's description of how close he is to children, I don't know, that raises some red flags. I mean, I'm not going to go far with that because. that's a lot of speculation, but, but like, what you wonder if it was ever about money. Right. But then when all of a sudden they had a child, they couldn't handle the child.

They didn't know what to do with the child. They didn't know what to do with the child. It seemed, it was way above their pay grade, right? It was way above what they had planned for. They had no contingencies. Their only contingency they had was that the child couldn't be released because then they would go to jail. Or then they would go to prison for kidnapping, right? Like once this thing started going south, nobody knew what to do.

It was like Fargo in that sense that these people are just... I know. It's despicable. Four grown adults. It really is sick. You know, when you picture, I mean, kidnapping cases are all so sick, but it's usually one person or one sick individual. four grown adults and the indifference. It is so upsetting what the probable cause is saying happened.

It's just despicable. The indifference, the callousness, the infliction of pain on this child, the lack of empathy, the lack of remorse, And all of that, by the way, is even more peculiar because towards the end of the interview, I'm not going to go over all of this, but essentially he says, he starts making this argument that he says, I would literally hurt someone really bad if I found out they did something like that to a little boy. I want justice to be served. I want his family to be at peace.

I cry nightly, hoping this boy comes home for his family. It's the most devastating thing I've ever heard in my life. I'm devastated. I hurt for this family. I mean, talk about a disconnect. This is the same guy stuffing a little child into a duffel bag and listening to him scream and doing nothing or allegedly stuffing a child, right, allegedly.

Well, let me ask you, then, those are the things he said that people were leaving comment saying, you know, nearly two years ago, I believe him. But you're someone that assesses criminals, has assessed numerous criminals. What are your thoughts when someone says that? Does that mean, does that? No, my thoughts are I found it hard to believe. I mean, I didn't know the evidence. So, you know, it, I, it's.

All right, you weren't assessing him. You were talking to him, but I'm talking about when you have assessed criminals. I still found it hard to believe. Yeah, no. I mean, this is, if I had walked in there having all the evidence and knowing a lot more, obviously I could have gone deeper and done more with it. But if I had this probable cause and I was listening to him to say that stuff, then I would realize that's all a defense.

That's all denial. That's all an attempt to ward off this threat to his perception of himself as being this really good, reasonable person. And again, that gets back to this idea of what Keith Payne calls the psychological first principle, which is that human beings want to perceive themselves as good, reasonable people, and they will do everything in their power to maintain that perspective of themselves and to sell that perspective to other people. So was that part of a stress?

with confessing though or talking about this, the throwing up was. Yeah, I think, sure, I think that's part of it. There's obviously a part of him that knows the truth, that knows the reality. Right. It sounds like he wrote a letter to Monkey's family and then attempted to self-harm after that. Yeah, I'd like to see that. Right. That was a big question I had.

So that was another interest. That was one of the most interesting parts of the probable cause. Stacey told his mother So he told his adopted His adoptive mother Was his only mother Tamarup Johnson He told his mother

That Sarah had killed Michael By suffocation And buried him in a duffal bag He wrote an apology letter To the parents Which would have been Brandy And Tyler supposedly I'm sure that's

I presume that's going to be placed in evidence If there is a letter And then he tried to himself, right, that's all an admission of guilt. That's all an admission of a guilty conscience.

The throwing up would be indicative of that too. This this realization that he participated in, that he facilitated and participated in this horrible murder. So I think

there's moments in every criminal, you know, there's moments where every criminal has to, is confronted with the brutal facts of their crimes. Many of them will never acknowledge that. Many of them will deny it until they die. It's the cliche about how there's not a single guilty person in prison, right? Every prisoner, every inmate and every violent inmate in prison is innocent, right?

And by the way, the more time they spend in prison, oftentimes, the more solidified, that perception becomes that when they're around other prisoners and deny, that allows them to become more immersed in their own denial. And so, but that's not always true. There are moments like with Stacy here, when some criminals feel compelled to confess or some criminal, a lot of criminals, given the right set of circumstances, they want to tell their story. Unless they have absolutely no conscience and no remorse,

what many do, but for some of them that occasionally have a conscience and show some remorse periodically, they feel compelled to tell their story because they want to, they want to get that off their chest. They want to, they want some type of catharsis. Right. Well, and it looks as if Sarah Wondra became very religious afterwards, according to the probable cause, both probable cause. And Stacy actually discussed religion with you and with me, actually. He really discussed religion in my interview with him, by the way,

which I know you haven't revisited. He talked a lot about God. But that's part of that. Is that part of that sort of, well, let me just ask you, what is that? We've also heard of other convicted criminals doing the same thing, becoming close to God, shifting to becoming more religious. With Sarah, I think it's a defense mechanism. It's her inability to deal with the reality of the situation, which is, again, the reality is that,

allegedly, the reality is that they are brutally murdering a helpless child, a helpless five-year-old in a way that's in some ways creating maximum suffering and pain for this poor child, right? For, I mean, I don't know how long he struggled. I don't know how long Michael struggled. I mean, it's just, it's so hard to read any human being, I think. There's a, in theory, there's a natural human response to what's what are called the distress emotions. Fear, pain, hurt, that human beings have a natural knee-jerk reaction to help other people

in pain, other people that are hurting, other people that are afraid. Yeah. And when you don't have that, then something is not right. is abnormal. Correct. And clearly, at least in this moment, they didn't have it. Whether they have that at all, I don't know. That's a bigger question. Stacey seems to have some of it, some of the time, but not here. Right. You, I want to go back to something you said, while Stacey implies that the motive is money, you do think there could be other motives involved. You also brought up, how much he likes children.

You brought up infertility. You brought up some things. What if could there be another motive, I guess is what I'm trying to say or ask? Well, first of all, he doesn't imply that the motive is financial. He says it. He says it quite clearly that Adrian was the one who floated the idea of taking a child. to sell for money. So Stacey suggests or states quite clearly that that is their motive.

Whether it is, is there a different issue? You know, one of the most interesting parts of the interview for me was when Stacey talked about how much he loved children. So some of the things he said to me, he said that he always wanted a child, not with Sarah, by the way, but he wanted a child and then he had this accident, prevents him from having a child supposedly. But he said, these are some of the things he said, he quote, adores children. He said he has 21 nieces and nephews.

They all consider him to be, quote, a loving uncle. He often falls asleep with them in his arms. And quote, he has, quote, a passion for kids in general, unquote. In general, what, you know, how do you relate to children? I absolutely adore children. I have nieces and nephews. I think I have like 21. Say that again,

21 nieces and nephews. Is that what you said? Okay. And tell me about your relationships with them. Just, I mean, when I've hung out with them, I've always,

they loved me, you know, I just, I was on to, I've always been that loving uncle, you know, um, they enjoyed hanging out with me and spending time with me.

And, they would fall asleep with me and, you know, it was just, it was amazing, you know. I just, I have a passion for, for my family, you know, and kids in general, like. Okay. Yeah. What, when you say 21 nieces and nephews, I presume you're talking about. All together. Right.

So Jerry's. Between Jerry's kids, mostly, yes. Jerry's kids mostly, okay. Jerry's kids would have been a little older, I assume. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So you do well with kids. Very well.

What quality do you think you have you possess that, you know, allows you to be so close to children? Honestly, just my heart, you know, my, my, my, my compassion, I guess. you know, how caring I am, you know, how interactive I am. Okay. There's almost a sense in which that's over the top. You know, there's almost a sense in which I think, you know, first of all, that's not consistent, obviously,

with the murder that happens here, clearly, right? Like if he loved kids so much, then he would protect, he would have protected Michael and he didn't. there's almost a sense in which I had the feeling when he was talking about that, that it was the opposite, that in many ways perhaps Michael becomes a proxy for all his anger and all his discontent and all his malice and all his problems and dysfunctions in childhood. It's not uncommon for some criminals to act out with children in violent, ways in order to assuage their own anger and their own difficult childhoods. In other words, the child, in this case, Michael, becomes a proxy for his own wounds and his own problems and his own suffering and childhood.

So by murdering Michael, it's possible that he's trying to, in fact, act out. all the anger and dysfunction that he experiences a child by projecting that onto Michael. What is that quote if you don't tell your story? If you don't tell your story, the story tells you. The story tells you. Right. And I think this is someone, Stacey Wunderer, and Sarah Wunderer too. These are people that seem to lack any capacity to tell their story.

or express their story in a healthy way with any type of insight or emotional intelligence or any cathartic elements, right? There's no there's no journey here, right? There's no curiosity. Right. Right.

Definitely some things to think about. But ultimately, I guess, I'll be really curious if people listen to your probable cause, if you're reading of the probable cause statements and then they listen to my interview, I'm sure people will pick up on some nuances that I missed. But this is sort of my interpretation and revisiting the interview.

I think these are some things I'm concerned about. And bigger picture, one of the questions I always ask is, do I believe that someone like Stacey Wondra is capable of committing murder based on this interview and everything I know, I certainly think it's possible. I certainly think he has a background consistent with many of the felons that I've worked with over the years or that I've interviewed. That's not to say that I know definitively that he did it. I don't. But if this confession was not coerced and it's believable, then you certainly have to think that he was, he seemed, it seemed as if he was clearly involved in this horrible murder.

Well, again, if any of these adults do care, and what the probable cause alleges is truth, I hope that they tell Monkey's family where he is, because they still want to bring him home. Yeah, for sure, for sure. I hope somebody comes forward with that. The family has suffered so much. I hope they can find some peace

and hopefully they'll be able to get monkeys' body back at some point. And maybe these charges will lead to a change in heart among any of these four co-conspirators. I don't know. I think that if they did do this as law enforcement states, I'm not sure at this point, if nothing yet has brought them forward, I don't know what would. That's true.

They're pretty immersed in denial for sure. Time will tell. Right. Thank you. Thanks, everyone. Thanks for being with us tonight. I want to say it one more time Mom, can you tell me a story?

Sure. Once upon a time, a mom needed a new car. Was she brave? She was tired, mostly. But she went to Carbana.com and found a great car at a great price. No secret treasure map required. Did you have to find a dragon? Nope, she bought it 100% online, from her bed, actually. Was it scary?

Honey, it was as unscary as car buying could be. Did the car have a sunroof? It did, actually. Okay, good story. Car buying you'll want to tell stories about. Buy your car today. On. Delivery fees may apply.

Because that was a profound moment. If you don't tell your story, your story tells you.